Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Primal Slayer]

Just now, Chaser said:

Savage...

Bigger question.... Thea? Lance?

I get Lance not being there but it's weird to me that Thea is left out.

Who are they again?

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, Primal Slayer said:

Who are they again?

That's not important. Let's talk more about Wild Dog :D

[Primal Slayer]

Just now, wonderwall said:

That's not important. Let's talk more about Wild Dog :D

our lord and saviour

[EmilyBettFan]

Just now, Chaser said:

If they were to actually end KC's run on Arrow with Felicity punching BS in the face....... no words...LOL

I'd stand up and applaud! I always thought LL was smug as hell (for no reason.)

[insomniadreams88]

5 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Savage...

Bigger question.... Thea? Lance?

I get Lance not being there but it's weird to me that Thea is left out.

Oliver's not letting Thea out of the lair. But she's stuck in one of the lower levels so she's not in the other scenes. No, honestly, I have no idea why Thea's not there. I wonder if they'll even explain it. Or maybe she's off-screen? Part of a deleted scene we'll get on the DVD, like Thea and Laurel at the engagement party?

(Assuming Lance is still in rehab.)

[thegirlsleuth]

I do wonder if they put the cards on the table because they realized that stringing along people who are hoping for a E1 Laurel Lance to return was a bad idea. I think they have finally caught on to the fact that they need to lower expectations in advance for anything fans might possibly be looking forward to.

[calliope1975]

2 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I do wonder if they put the cards on the table because they realized that stringing along people who are hoping for a E1 Laurel Lance to return was a bad idea. I think they have finally caught on to the fact that they need to lower expectations in advance for anything fans might possibly be looking forward to.

Who puts together promos? The network? I know it's not the writers. If anything, they're probs mad that their game changing, epic, surprise twist was ruined by the stupid promo people. 

Based on the thinly veiled animosity towards LL that I got from that MG interview (the one that mentioned representation,) I wouldn't be surprised if Felicity punches her, her statue is destroyed, and gasp! Wild Dong disapproves of her. OK, that might be taking it too far. 

9 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

That's not important. Let's talk more about Wild Dog :D

Yes, I sure do hope we get his thoughts on LL/BS's reappearance. I predict a sneer and a poorly made, unamusing, quippy dismissal. 

[wonderwall]

Is it wrong that the conspiracy theorist in me completely believes that the reason why the Arrow promo is so late is because they saw that 509 ratings and were worried so the network mandated Chico to redo the promos for Arrow? That's why the promo focuses heavily on Oliver/Felicity/Diggle and also spoils that NO Laurel Lance is NOT coming back.

And the reason why it came out at 11pm on Boxing Day is because Chico is bitter about it? 

LOL

Edited December 27, 2016 by wonderwall

[Chaser]

3 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Yes, I sure do hope we get his thoughts on LL/BS's reappearance. I predict a sneer and a poorly made, unamusing, quippy dismissal. 

Maybe she'll get a nickname too. Squeaky Pigeon?

[Mellowyellow]

Are we also supposed to get a trailer for the mid season? Like the Flash one?

Where is that one?

[Midnight Lullaby]

I guess the network, as usual, didn't get the message that the writers wanted to play the "Laurel is alive" angle..

Anyway I'd love if Felicity punched Prometheus..he is the big bad and it would be so cool. Punching BS would make me cringe so I hope they won't go there.

I'm curious about the excuse for not having Thea there..last year she was the person closest to Laurel..an option would be that for that reason they keep her away because they know it isn't the real Laurel but apparently Oliver thinks it's her and also it would be the type of attitude that drove Thea away from him in the past.

[LeighAn]

Marc always says he's not responsible for promos so I'm assuming the network marketing team cuts the promo- although I would have assume that the producers would at least give notes on the basic storyline they want in the promo, but who knows.

Im curious what episode would they have been writing when the ratings declines first came in?? cause if they are going to make a change in tone/direction im assuming it will start some time in 5B.

[dtissagirl]

The only promo the EPs/writers room have any say in is the SDCC trailer. Everything else re: promotion is 100% network, show people have no saying.

CW marketing has been spoiling shit EPs wished they didn't since the dawn of the network. And before that, it was UPN and WB promo depts spoiling shit showrunners didn't want them to, but had no power to stop them. I don't think fandom and/or online spoilers have anything to do with it, tbh. It's been their m.o. forever.

[lemotomato]

3 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Im curious what episode would they have been writing when the ratings declines first came in?? cause if they are going to make a change in tone/direction im assuming it will start some time in 5B.

According to BFS, they were breaking 512 by Sep 21. I'm guessing that by the season premiere, they would've been writing 511/512?

Edited December 27, 2016 by lemotomato

[Velocity23]

This is actually hilarious. They went relentless in their trolling that Oliver is dead after 3x09. Even during the winter TCAs in January, same thing happened after 4x09 and them pretending Felicity is dead. But here they come right out and say: HAHAHA was just a joke, its actually  Black Siren. 

[JJ928]

8 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I'm going to guess this is water?

When I saw the trailer I wondered the same thing. Will giving her champagne be part of testing to see if this is the real Laurel, on Felicity's part (since we know she's the only one skeptical)? That would actually make sense, or will this be another show fail where they forget LL was an addict. I mean, having Oliver forgot is actually in character for him, he obviously doesn't remember the past 4 years of his life.

Edited December 27, 2016 by JJ928

[spartan]

That  Arrow promo looked exactly like the Reddit spoiler. tina is a new black canary, poor  E 2 laurel

[insomniadreams88]

11 minutes ago, JJ928 said:

When I saw the trailer I wondered the same thing. Will giving her champagne be part of testing to see if this is the real Laurel, on Felicity's part (since we know she's the only one skeptical)? That would actually make sense, or will this be another show fail where they forget LL was an addict. I mean, having Oliver forgot is actually in character for him, he obviously doesn't remember the past 4 years of his life.

Maybe it's not part of a test, but it could lead to Felicity wondering, "Hey, wait a minute..." Especially since Lance in rehab right now should be a reminder of the problems those two have had in the past. 

[dtissagirl]

If the writers forgot Laurel's an alcoholic, it's way funnier.

[Featherhat]

Well at least this way, no one can say they weren't warned that it wasn't in fact a Laurel resurrected by Flash Point or rescued by Sara. Although there seem to be a lot of people upset that "MG lied to us" about KC/LL. However getting a "cross show contract was never a guarantee that she would be back full time or even part time. It doesn't seem to have been an "oops our bad" rather a consolation prize or a way to tell her "legacy" as needed. It's not like JB or WM are on a different DC show every week either. And even when they resurrected Sara CL went to be a regular *on another show* not come back to Arrow.

[Sakura12]

Well KC and everyone working on the crew barely remembered when Laurel was still standing in the shot. Since KC looked like a powered down robot when the camera wasn't focused on her. 

I hope the other spoiler of NuBC are true. It would be hilarious if Sara got half of comic BC's traits and skills and this new BC gets the other half. I think that will 100% show that they think Arrow's Laurel is a lost cause. 

[Chaser]

I don't think another BC is needed and I was perfectly happy with LL keeping it as long as it kept her off the show, but I will admit I appreciate the implications of them bringing in a nuBC.  

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think killing LL off is pretty much admitting they failed with the character and at this point it's indifferent to me if the new girl is another BC or someone else..it's another newbie in the lair and it's not something the show needs. If she came to replace wild puppy I'd be more on board, LOL

[bijoux]

5 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Anyway I'd love if Felicity punched Prometheus..he is the big bad and it would be so cool. Punching BS would make me cringe so I hope they won't go there.

Can I ask why? Personally I have zero problems with it. One, BS is a baddie. Two, she demolishes the lair and per spoilers threatens to kill Felicity (if I remember this part correctly). Three, she tries and at least partially succeeds in fooling the team by impersonating Felicity's dead friend, thereby defiling her memory. So, I can only think of pros for Felicity punching out BS for herself, the team and even Laurel.

[statsgirl]

Flashpoint reset Laurel's alcoholism as well as getting replacing Baby Sara.  It was IMPORTANT, guys.

I really want the tell-all behind the scenes book for this show even more now.

[insomniadreams88]

Maybe Felicity punches "Prometheus" but, like with Billy, it's not Prometheus but someone else in the suit?

Or they're just going to have her punch a punching bag and it's going to be the most surprising part of the episode because they're going to remember that Felicity should really get some kind of self-defense training. That's the real shock of the midseason premiere, guys. That's why they show it's BS in the trailer. No one expects the show to think about giving Felicity any kind of training. 

[Featherhat]

15 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Can I ask why? Personally I have zero problems with it. One, BS is a baddie. Two, she demolishes the lair and per spoilers threatens to kill Felicity (if I remember this part correctly). Three, she tries and at least partially succeeds in fooling the team by impersonating Felicity's dead friend, thereby defiling her memory. So, I can only think of pros for Felicity punching out BS for herself, the team and even Laurel.

Yeah but even with that I guess it might be seen as a bit too meta by some? Especially if NuCanary is introduced in the very next episode.

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

I hope the other spoiler of NuBC are true. It would be hilarious if Sara got half of comic BC's traits and skills and this new BC gets the other half. I think that will 100% show that they think Arrow's Laurel is a lost cause. 

I think it's sort of amusing that we are potentially on the 3rd Canary and still the biggest point in LL's favour seems to (mostly, certainly not all) "well she has the right name!" I guess if she turns out to be "Tina Drake" then she's also half right like Sara.

[Cleanqueen]

No wonder the paps couldn't really confirm that she was Black Siren at first because KC doesn't once wear the Black Siren outfit. Also, it looks like Arrow couldn't even have the flash CGI people do the canary cry effects on Arrow. 

So I guess Black Siren died her hair blonde to resemble Laurel but thought Laurel would also sport a septum piercing-I know it's all KC but damn the costumes and make up department didnt give a damn for a one episode appearance and I dont blame them.

[Sakura12]

Laurel having the name is really the only similarity she has to comic/cartoon BC. When I watch cartoon BC I hear some of Sara's personality. Laurel's just a character that has a name and wore a black costume. I guess for some that's enough, for me I'd rather see the essence of the character portrayed over them having the right name. 

I don't know what to think of a 3rd BC, since I will forever consider Sara the Flarrowverse BC no matter what color outfit she's wearing. I'm just going with this new one is pushing Laurel even further down in importance to this universe. 

Edited December 27, 2016 by Sakura12

[Midnight Lullaby]

51 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Can I ask why? Personally I have zero problems with it. One, BS is a baddie. Two, she demolishes the lair and per spoilers threatens to kill Felicity (if I remember this part correctly). Three, she tries and at least partially succeeds in fooling the team by impersonating Felicity's dead friend, thereby defiling her memory. So, I can only think of pros for Felicity punching out BS for herself, the team and even Laurel.

Because even if I know BS isn't LL she still looks exactly like her, is played by the same actress so the scene won't be for me "Felicity punches a villain", but "Felicity punches a villain that is the closest thing we can get to LL" and that makes me uncomfortable. I also know many would cheer because of that and many would be offended and I'm not into that.

[Belinea]

Not talking about chemistry or acting but why did they write their original BC so terrible? I mean you can always point the finger at the actor but LL was at times truly terribly written. That is the writers's fault. You wouldn't have needed BC 3.0 if you had just done BC 1.0 right. Or maybe left well enough alone once you reached BC 2.0. For whatever reasons they did not. 

Now we will have a new character in the middle of the season while people are disappointed/angry that LL isn't back from the dead, some random woman got the cry, Oliver might romance the newbie.... That writing and acting and overall chemistry has to be awesome for people to buy into it right away. Without even seeing it, I wish the story was already over and done with. I simply don't need a new BC. I never thought I'd say this but at least with Laurel you knew what to expect. She was there from the beginning and not just thrown into the storyline in the middle of season 5. At this point, I've already decided who I like and who I don't like, which storylines I want more of and what I could care less about. I don't need any newbies. I need storylines for the characters I've already invested my time in. I don't need new regulars. And maybe this is just my opinion but the new kids don't do anything for me. Maybe in a smaller dosage who knows. 

[statsgirl]

I think all of the characters on the show have had bad writing at times.  Malcom Merlyn is just inches off from twirling his mustache in some scenes

The problem with KC's Laurel from the start was a combination of her story, in which she's supposed to hate Oliver... no she loves him.... no she hates hims which makes the character difficult to sympathize with in the first place, and the fact that KC always played the top emotion in any scene rather than a nuanced conflict making Laurel look like a ping pong ball.

I don't need a new BC either, I've got Sara and Thea and even Lyla, but I guess DC does.  It's possible Tina may be a great addition but I'd give it the same odds as Zach Snyder producing a Superman movie I'd actually want to see.

2 hours ago, bijoux said:

Can I ask why? Personally I have zero problems with it. One, BS is a baddie. Two, she demolishes the lair and per spoilers threatens to kill Felicity (if I remember this part correctly). Three, she tries and at least partially succeeds in fooling the team by impersonating Felicity's dead friend, thereby defiling her memory. So, I can only think of pros for Felicity punching out BS for herself, the team and even Laurel.

For me it's inevitable that the character of Laurel Lance from Arrow is going to bleed into the Black Siren.  Sara got the lead in the spin-off, Felicity got the leading lady gig on Arrow and probably the guy.  2016 has been the year of too many winners who bully the losers after they've won.   I'm for letting Laurel Lance/Black Canary fans have their comics and their fanfic and their image of who she should have been on the show.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind Felicity punching Oliver for being an idiot about the BMD and for trusting Susan and going to her for comfort.  Although maybe it should be Thea who punches him for that.

[Primal Slayer]

Even Tvline is surprised at how spoilerly the trailer was lol

[bijoux]

3 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Because even if I know BS isn't LL she still looks exactly like her, is played by the same actress so the scene won't be for me "Felicity punches a villain", but "Felicity punches a villain that is the closest thing we can get to LL" and that makes me uncomfortable. I also know many would cheer because of that and many would be offended and I'm not into that.

Okay, I get it now. Still, for me, onscreen motivation beats BTS stuff and a VotW not only having the face of someone deceased who was dear to me, but using it for nefarious purposes against me would absolutely make me see red. I'd most likely be inclined to tear that face off them because I wouldn't want them to resemble a person I loved.

I'm sure you're right about the reactions of certain fans and while I'm honestly opposed to the former and sorry for the latter, I can't influence how others perceive a storyline.

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

Okay, I get it now. Still, for me, onscreen motivation beats BTS stuff and a VotW not only having the face of someone deceased who was dear to me, but using it for nefarious purposes against me would absolutely make me see red. I'd most likely be inclined to tear that face off them because I wouldn't want them to resemble a person I loved.

I'm sure you're right about the reactions of certain fans and while I'm honestly opposed to the former and sorry for the latter, I can't influence how others perceive a storyline.

I understand your logic and I think if I was only a casual viewer I would probably agree and didn't think much about it but I can't forget about BTS stuff..picturing the scene makes me uncomfortable so I'd prefer if they had her hit Prometheus or another villain. For example I wouldn't like if she hit the reporter either (after they found out she was working for Prometheus for example).

[catrox14]

I guess I don't see why it's so egregious or OOC for Felicity to punch someone who is seeking to harm her or someone else. Felicity elbowed and pistol whipped her ex who she dearly loved and thought was dead until she realized he went dark side. I could even make a case that Felicity seeing Laurel might make lead her to  think she was resurrected by the Lazarus Pit and clocking her would be better than shooting her.

Edited December 27, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Or they're just going to have her punch a punching bag and it's going to be the most surprising part of the episode because they're going to remember that Felicity should really get some kind of self-defense training. T

Felicity was trained a little bit by Sara and Diggle. Her punching someone seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[insomniadreams88]

I don't see any problem with Felicity punching BS since it's most probably coming after BS attacks the team and is revealed to be working for Prometheus. It's not like she's going to think she's Laurel, walk over to her and punch her instead of welcoming her back or interrupt Oliver's toast to clock her. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I don't see any problem with Felicity punching BS since it's most probably coming after BS attacks the team and is revealed to be working for Prometheus. It's not like she's going to think she's Laurel, walk over to her and punch her instead of welcoming her back or interrupt Oliver's toast to clock her. 

I hate that Oliver just accepts that its Laurel. He knows better. He knows that this must be hinky. Or at least the Oliver before s5 would.

Also, KC is totally channeling Ruby in that last shot. The only difference is she lowered her voice slightly.

Edited December 27, 2016 by catrox14

[Sakura12]

I think BS deserves to be punched if she's going to pretend to be a dead friend of theirs. 

Edited December 27, 2016 by Sakura12

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I think BS deserves to be punched if she's going to pretend to be a dead friend of theirs. 

at minimum

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I hate that Oliver just accepts that its Laurel. He knows better. He knows that this must be hinky. Or at least the Oliver before s5 would.

Yep. Especially since it can probably be solved immediately with one question (if they don't feel like doing some grave-digging or calling to the people who have dealt with doppelgangers: "What did you ask me to promise you on your deathbed?" I don't think Prometheus knows that, so BS shouldn't. On screen, we've only seen that that's something Oliver, Laurel and Felicity know, right? Did Oliver ever discuss that with Diggle or Thea? 

But this is S5 Oliver, so I'm really not surprised. I'm half-expecting BS to attack while Felicity's trying to tell Oliver she's maybe not their Laurel and Oliver's insisting she is, Oliver to then have the "not our Laurel" line and Felicity to have the comedic, "Didn't I just say that?" that shows love to do when someone repeats someone else's really good and valid point and no one seems to hear the first person. 

[apinknightmare]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He knows better.

Does he though? His picture is in the showrunner's dictionary under "dumb for plot."

[Trini]

Is it weird the promo isn't up on CW's youtube?

[Midnight Lullaby]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I guess I don't see why it's so egregious or OOC for Felicity to punch someone who is seeking to harm her or someone else. Felicity elbowed and pistol whipped her ex who she dearly loved and thought was dead until she realized he went dark side. I could even make a case that Felicity seeing Laurel might make lead her to  think she was resurrected by the Lazarus Pit and clocking her would be better than shooting her.

I didn't say it would be egregious of OOC but that it would make me uncomfortable. That's simply my feeling about the scene, I have no problem with people loving the idea or being indifferent, I just don't like it.

[Chaser]

Honestly I think it would depend on how it was done. If it was a super obvious meta type statement, I would probably feel a bit uncomfortable (tho still enjoy the visual for a moment). It would be kind of like Laurel talking Olicity on her deathbed. Now if Felicity were to punch her for Laurel or Laurel's memory or a casual moment of self defense, I think that would be different.

[Cleanqueen]

"and this is for Laurel" and boom she punches her..I think that would be both funny and understandable.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Cleanqueen said:

"and this is for Laurel" and boom she punches her..I think that would be both funny and understandable.

"How dare you pass yourself off as the Black Canary!"

[Lily-n11]

10 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

"How dare you pass yourself off as the Black Canary!"

Since I am more interested in what is going on behind the scenes this year I totally read this in a meta kind of way. As in the show / the writers / me / whoever telling the actress. I can't stop my thoughts from going there.

And I hope after 5-10 the show will finally be done with LL and KC. At the moment I can't think of anything that is still unfinished for the character. Every character on the show loved and honored LL.

From an outside / my perspective the show seems totally done with both of them. Last year they said there are no more stories to tell. But this year we get a DA that is going out as a Vigilante at night. Since they still haven't revealed Chase I guess in 5B he will get an arc about the conflicts he should feel. Which is something I totally expected the show would do with LL. But they didn't.

I don't want to talk about the NuBC until I see her. But if she got the meta cry just because she was in Central City at the time of the explosion this is something the show could have easily done with LL. But they didn't. ( I don't even remember what LL did in 2-09.)

So every time the show choose not to do something with / for the character it made me wonder why. Why did they write her the way they did. I always felt they never knew what to do with LL /Kc after the pilot. The last real arc she got ended with 313. Since then it felt like she just tagged along. Then I came across this comment from you-know-who from Vancouver. I know it's him and it's from imdb but it would explain so much.

Quote

If you are to believe past & current crew - its something the powers that be on the show wanted from the pilot, but were never able to fully get the green light to do from the network, but after 4 years & 1 last final straw, they got their wish.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2193021/board/thread/263407542?d=263409495#263409495

PS: I totally want to know about that last final straw. To be honest I want to know about all the straws. Who is gonna write that Tell-All book and when?

Edited December 28, 2016 by Lily-n11
It's imdb not imbd.

[Featherhat]

RE that thread, I can't believe it was Olicity fans that finally got their way (unless those fans were also producers) otherwise if they had that power Olicity would still be together. There has been room for both actresses for 4 years, at least in front of the camera. But I don't think Laurel really worked from the first season, witness how completely they dropped her as LI and almost gave CL the full time BC gig. No idea how BTS personality issues impacted everything but I too would be interested in "all the straws".

That said I don't think she's being brought back as BS to dump on the character/actress/fans either as Reddit is hysterical about. BS is already a character in the Flarrowverse and was a popular character that episode. If they had ever intended to bring KC back full time then they wouldn't have given her one of those "glorified guest star" contract across all shows, they'd have planned her "death" and then used Flashpoint/LOT to resurrect her. I guess they still could but even in the "alive and well" quote WM only guarantees 5.10. Depending on how it pans out in the ep they can always use BS for other guest spots but I guess that will also depend on KC as well.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Featherhat