Spoiler Discussion Thread

[shadow2008]

Eh. Only if they weren't going the love interest route. I personally wouldn't be all that excited about seeing Laurel date someone her father's age, even if I'm not crazy about the character. YMMV.

 

In action, Charles Mesure can easily go through as a guy in his late thirties, so the casual viewer who doesn't go online to check actor's ages probably wouldn't have had any problems with it, but I figured that he wouldn't stand a chance at the role because of the age difference.

[tv echo]

Thanks to shadow2008 for posting that "Arrow: 31 Things To Know About Season 3" article link.  That was a very nice compilation of Season 3 spoilers.  I too find that Laurel identity theme rather puzzling.  Laurel's the older sister to Sara.  It's usually the younger sister who either tries to be more like, or tries to find a separate identity from, the older sister, not the other way around.  I do like the statement that Thea and Felicity may each get their own centric episode at some point.  A Thea-centric episode will probably be universally loved, while a Felicity-centric episode will probably have some fans complaining about "pandering."  It's funny but Thea, Diggle and Sara are not in the comics either (from the Green Arrow/Black Canary era), yet when they get character-centric episodes, there's no such complaint. 

 

I found GB's comment about BR's being Cary Grant to SA's John Wayne really interesting.  Personally, I like the opposites attract theory.  Post-island Oliver is broody, stoic and reserved, while Felicity is chatty and funny (one dark, one light).  Barry and Felicity were too much alike (two lights).  Ray sounds like he'll be too much like Felicity as well (two lights).

 

I also find that MG statement quite ambiguous.  After 5 nightmarish years (half of which we haven't seen yet), Oliver probably still has a lot of anger and rage buried inside him.  That won't disappear overnight.  Maybe he realizes that he himself could be dangerous to Felicity and tells her that she should not put her life on hold for him.  There was a spoiler that after Oliver and Felicity have their talk, she goes off to Central City.  Maybe in reaction, she goes off to see if there's anything with Barry that will help her get over Oliver and they end up talking as friends, and he helps her reach a decision about what to do about Oliver.  After two seasons where Oliver goes from woman to woman while Felicity kinda pines after him, will we now have a season where Oliver nobly steps back and has to watch Ray pursue Felicity?  

 

Well, J.R. Ramirez is certainly attractive.  Yes, Ted Grant probably will train Laurel and be her love interest.  With his underprivileged kids, he'll be a great guy and will probably make her more likeable.  Maybe he'll get killed (and bequeath his gym to Laurel), thus spurring Laurel's superhero journey forward.

 

I agree that Orion's PR analysis is brilliant and makes a lot of sense.

 

Yes, I'm also now being suckered into wanting to buy the digital comics when they come out in September.

Edited July 29, 2014 by tv echo

[SonofaBiscuit]

I just don't like how Arrow tries to manipulate me into reading the comics and watching The Flash.  Sure, it's a good business move for them, but it irritates me.  If they want closure for Barry and Felicity, why can't Barry come on over to Arrow for one more episode to resolve things?  Instead, some of these Arrow characters are going over to the Flash, so now I have to watch a second show (or read the comics) to find out things that are affecting the Arrow universe.  And with the 2 hour Arrow/Flash thing happening later this year, it looks like I'll probably have to watch The Flash to see the resolution of that episode.  What if I hate The Flash? (I probably won't, but I kind of hate whoever came up with the brilliant idea for crossovers)

[HighwayFlower]

According to IMDb, J. R. Ramirez is six years older than Katie Cassidy. He's 33, she's 27.

Wow! I never would have guessed he was 33. He's cute, but with the baby face I would have thought 25!

[catrox14]

 

hanks to shadow2008 for posting that "Arrow: 31 Things To Know About Season 3" article link.  That was a very nice compilation of Season 3 spoilers.  I too find that Laurel identity theme rather puzzling.  Laurel's the older sister to Sara.  It's usually the younger sister who either tries to be more like, or tries to find a separate identity from, the older sister, not the other way around.  I do like the statement that Thea and Felicity may each get their own centric episode at some point.

 

I think if the younger sibling surpasses the older sibling in life goals and what happens to them, I can see it being different.  I am still sticking with Laurel being jealous of Sara and wanting her life not because it's a good life but because Ollie, Quentin, Felicity etc all see Sara as a hero and they love her and Laurel's wants that attention.  Yup. I said it. I would actually be fine with that being Laurel's motivation and it would be a lot more interesting than " I admire and love my sister so much" that I want to be just like her.

[Sakura12]

That may be a more interesting motivation but "I want attention too" is not a great origin story for a hero.

 

However they have shown that Laurel appears to have always wanted what Sara wants or has, with her finding out that Sara was crushing on Oliver and decides to ask him out after she got her sister grounded. 

[Sunshine]

I just don't like how Arrow tries to manipulate me into reading the comics and watching The Flash.  Sure, it's a good business move for them, but it irritates me.  If they want closure for Barry and Felicity, why can't Barry come on over to Arrow for one more episode to resolve things?  Instead, some of these Arrow characters are going over to the Flash, so now I have to watch a second show (or read the comics) to find out things that are affecting the Arrow universe.  And with the 2 hour Arrow/Flash thing happening later this year, it looks like I'll probably have to watch The Flash to see the resolution of that episode.  What if I hate The Flash? (I probably won't, but I kind of hate whoever came up with the brilliant idea for crossovers)

AK said there will be some exposition at the beginning of Arrow 3.08 so those who don't want to watch Flash 1.08 will still know what is going on. 

[catrox14]

That may be a more interesting motivation but "I want attention too" is not a great origin story for a hero.

 

However they have shown that Laurel appears to have always wanted what Sara wants or has, with her finding out that Sara was crushing on Oliver and decides to ask him out after she got her sister grounded. 

 

It's not great for a hero, but it is great for a villain, which is what I really hope they end up doing with Laurel.  Laurel has always come across to me as kind of petty and jealous and the good-doer seems oddly absent.  But for a villain, yes jealousy and resentment are great motivators.  Maybe they could make her into a Bizarro BC.

[HighwayFlower]

Wasn't White Canary a villain? Laurel would be perfect for that.

[Velocity23]

Manhunter is still my preferred theory 

Edited July 29, 2014 by Velocity23

[catrox14]

Maybe Felicity is going undercover or it's a sexy scene with Stephen :)

[Velocity23]

It was an old tweet lol :) Just dont understand the VS comment since i dont remember Felicity wearing anything VS like. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by Velocity23

[stormborn]

I'm in equal parts excited and very, very wary of the writers' seemingly full throttle approach to Olicity this season. There's so much that's been revealed about The Big Date and the drama that ensues afterwards, and yet still, I can't seem to garner a clear idea in my mind as to how it will all go down. 

 

The reason Oliver gives for not wanting to pursue a relationship with Felicity has to resonate so strongly that it realistically puts a cap on their romance for the time being while allowing us, the audience, to still root for them to get their shit together in the end. And I don't know if the writers' are skilled enough to make that work without overcomplicating their dynamic. I mean, they might surprise me but I've got still got trust issues from the mess that was mid to late season two. 

 

Ugh, I really want the premiere to leak as well cause all this speculation is giving me a headache. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by stormborn

[poetgirl925]

That is a bit of an odd choice for Wildcat! To fit the comics it would have been better to cast a Michael Shanks type the way Smallville did for Hawkman. However, having this guy fill two roles - trainer and love interest - it's a tighter story in which screen time can be combined. With all the other stories to tell this is probably better.

Based on what EPs said, I got the impression that Felicity and Oliver have their 'declaration' in the premiere and then there's another serious talk before she visits Barry. I think Oliver being afraid of losing control is a solid theory for the first talk but I'm not sure about the second talk.

Edited July 29, 2014 by poetgirl925

[Password]

Hah! Felicity is going boyfriend hunting city to city now?? It just makes me painfully curious as to what they talk about in the premiere and in episode 3.

Kmt I hope I have patience with Iris. Anyone who doesn't see the adorableness in Barry is a darn fool.

[Velocity23]

I have question regarding what Stephen mentioned at one of his cons regarding Isabel not having his full attention and hell hath no fury as a women scorned. What exactly was he getting at? And does it play into Felicity and Oliver having these big feelings for each other?

[catrox14]

If that's an old tweet, maybe he was referring to her peek a boo front dress from s2

[doesntworkonwood]

I think someone asked him why Isabel hated Felicity so much, and he replied that Isabel may not have had his full attention when he was 'with' her. I think that he meant to imply that he was thinking of Felicity at the time, as he had deeper feelings for her. 

[stormborn]

 

Based on what EPs said, I got the impression that Felicity and Oliver have their 'declaration' in the premiere and then there's another serious talk before she visits Barry. I think Oliver being afraid of losing control is a solid theory for the first talk but I'm not sure about the second talk.

 

Oh, I thought the talk after the date was the only talk. And yeah I've been seeing that theory bandied about and I think it might be a way to go but I'm having trouble picturing how that would be resolved because whether or not they're in a relationship, I think Oliver will still have issues controlling his murderous rage when Felicity is directly put in harm's way. We've seen it happen with Helena and The Count and by virtue of her working with him on Team Arrow, she's literally in danger all the time. So I'm not too sure how that theory shakes out in the long run. 

[Password]

^ not just that @stormborn he was the one who put her in danger with Slade. Yes she accepted, but he still went through with it. But seeing Oliver in a Shado-Slade induced craze over Felicity would be fun and interesting. I just know the Count brings up some unwanted not so warm and fuzzies.

[wingster55]

A Thea-centric episode will probably be universally loved, while a Felicity-centric episode will probably have some fans complaining about "pandering."  It's funny but Thea, Diggle and Sara are not in the comics either (from the Green Arrow/Black Canary era), yet when they get character-centric episodes, there's no such complaint.

 

I think Diggle is the only universally loved character (if there is such a thing). I've seen plenty of dislike of Sara and Thea. (Actually this is the only place that views Thea positively for the most part). 

[Morrigan2575]

What tweet are you guys talking about? Felicity in VS?

[Velocity23]

There was an old tweet of Colton that said that Emily should warn crew/cast before she shows up on set looking like a Victoria secret model. 

 

Well there is a fraction of Diggle fans that dislike Lyla apparently. Saw some express the wish for Lyla to die or lose the baby. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by Velocity23

[catrox14]

I love Lyla! How can anyone dislike Diggle and Lyla. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THOSE PEOPLE!.  This place really needs a sarcasm font :)

 

ETA: I actually really do love Lyla and Diggle.

Edited July 29, 2014 by catrox14

[doesntworkonwood]

Actually, I have seen some Laurel fans who don't like Diggle. Apparently he's whiny because he was mad at Oliver for ditching him for Laurel (who is Oliver's childhood friend and ex-girlfriend), and he's also jealous of her. 

[catrox14]

Wut? Diggle jealous of Laurel....I ...wut? 

 

Well, if that's true, Laurel in the Arrowcave should be hilarious because Diggle will not put up with any shenanigans from her.

[ban1o]

I think Diggle is the only universally loved character (if there is such a thing). I've seen plenty of dislike of Sara and Thea. (Actually this is the only place that views Thea positively for the most part). 

lol yeah this is the only forum that views Thea positively. Every other forum I go on hates Thea with a passion. They think she's annoying and overdramatic. Even go on youtube reviews of episodes or look in the comments. They say mean things about Thea all the time. A lot of people wish her character would die. (Not my opinion, I'm just stating the general consensus on other forums) I think this forum might liker her better because there are more females here than others perhaps. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by ban1o

[stormborn]

 

^ not just that he was the one who put her in danger with Slade. Yes she accepted, but he still went through with it. But seeing Oliver in a Shado-Slade induced craze over Felicity would be fun and interesting. I just know the Count brings up some unwanted not so warm and fuzzies.

 

Yeah, there's that as well. And not long after she officially joined Team Arrow, Felicity was volunteering to go out in the field as bait when needed (season one episode 21) and while Oliver might have fought her on it initially, I think Felicity affirming that 'its my life, my choice' and Oliver accepting that was such a pivotal moment in their relationship and for the character of Felicity in general. It was the moment I considered Oliver's respect for Felicity solidified. 

 

And I was never a big fan of the Shado-Slade arc because it ruined Slade for me and I found Slade's Mirakuru fueled obsession with Shado sort of creepy. But if the writers can find a way to strike a resemblance between that and whatever is going on with Olicity and manage to make it sympathetic and something to get invested in then I'm all for it. 

[writersblock51]

 

I am still sticking with Laurel being jealous of Sara and wanting her life not because it's a good life but because Ollie, Quentin, Felicity etc all see Sara as a hero and they love her and Laurel's wants that attention.  Yup. I said it.

This has been my take on Laurel's attitude, even before she found out that Sara was alive.  She was battling the 'favorite daughter'/hot chick thing in Season 1 with her parents and Oliver.  I think one reason she was more relaxed with Tommy is because he never had interest in Sara so she, Laurel, never had to worry about being a consolation prize.

 

I'm fine with Felicity going on the double-date provided that it does, as previewed, prove part of their 'closure.'  I'm all for them and their respective teams becoming strong allies, with no romantic nonsense between shows to muck things up.

 

I don't get the anti-Thea, anti-Diggle or anti-Lyla stuff that I've seen elsewhere either.  I'm looking forward to seeing Thea and Diggle's stories expanded this season.

[ban1o]

 

I don't get the anti-Thea, anti-Diggle or anti-Lyla stuff that I've seen elsewhere either.  I'm looking forward to seeing Thea and Diggle's stories expanded this season.

In general Diggle is pretty well liked. Like Wingster55 said, he's the closest to a universally loved character. Thea gets A LOT of hate though. I personally don't get it, but it's pretty rampant. It's reduced a little bit towards the end of season 2 though. Probably because people love John Barrowman/Malcol Merlyn so much so they're interested in that storyline

Edited July 29, 2014 by ban1o

[Morrigan2575]

There was an old tweet of Colton that said that Emily should warn crew/cast before she shows up on set looking like a Victoria secret model.

Well there is a fraction of Diggle fans that dislike Lyla apparently. Saw some express the wish for Lyla to die or lose the baby.

That was from 2.08 filming, I think.

I hated Thea in S1 up until the end of the season, where she bitched Roy out for calling Oliver weak. I started liking her after that and enjoyed her in S2. She's not my favorite character, I don't love her or miss her when she's not in an episode but I don't hate her or mind when she is around. I'm actually curious to see what they do with her this year.

I don't think any character is universally loved or hated, everyone has fans and detractors.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[stormborn]

Actually, I have seen some Laurel fans who don't like Diggle. Apparently he's whiny because he was mad at Oliver for ditching him for Laurel (who is Oliver's childhood friend and ex-girlfriend), and he's also jealous of her. 

 

Yep, I've encountered Laurel fans who weirdly dislike Diggle because he deigned to point out that Oliver had a blind spot where Laurel was concerned and was very rightly hurt when Oliver chose to save Laurel even though she was protected at the time instead of coming to Diggle's aid like he promised he would when they agreed to take Deadshot down. I remember really hating Oliver when he did that. 

 

 

And re: the Felicity/Barry double date thing, I'm not necessarily against it because I've never seen those two as anything other than a mild flirtation and I guess the show thinks they need to resolve what ever little unfinished business they might have but I do think the EPs really need to pick their spots with The Flash/Arrow crossovers because The Flash needs to stand on its own if its to be successful and Arrow already has more than enough going on right now. 

 

I don't mind seeing Oliver and Barry join forces to combat a common threat but Arrow, despite all its faults, is its own show and I feel like The Flash has to prove to me that it can be its own show too without Arrow's help. If that makes any sense... 

[strikera0]

Yeah, there are no universally beloved characters or actors because people have different tastes. If we all liked the same things, the world would be a pretty boring place.

Edited July 29, 2014 by strikera0

[poetgirl925]

I have question regarding what Stephen mentioned at one of his cons regarding Isabel not having his full attention and hell hath no fury as a women scorned. What exactly was he getting at? And does it play into Felicity and Oliver having these big feelings for each other?

I just watched this today. Remember right before Felicity hit Isabel with the van? Isabel wanted to know where to find Felicity and said she'd "wanted to wipe that smug expression off her face ever since..." and then smack! Lol

The girl wanted to know what the rest of that sentence would have been - since what, where, etc. and why Isabel hated Felicity so much. SA said that thing about hell hath no fury and Isabel probably hated Felicity because she knew she didn't have Oliver's full attention when they had sexy times in Russia. If SA says that Oliver's head wasn't in the game then okay - seems a little like rewriting history, but I'll go with it. He and Marc have both been implying that Oliver knew at least a little about how he felt as early as 2x06. However, I don't think that was Isabel's motivation because Isabel couldn't be bothered with Oliver most of the time. I think she used him in hopes of manipulating him and perhaps hated the fact that Felicity was an obstacle in her plan? Something more like that anyway. The 'ever since' part is confusing because it sounds like she's referring to something specific. Russia makes the most sense but I'll never believe Isabel cared enough about Oliver to be 'scorned.' That was the role his father played in her life.

Edited July 29, 2014 by poetgirl925

[ban1o]

Yeah, there are no universally beloved characters or actors because people have different tastes. If we all liked the same things, the would would be a pretty boring place.

But some character are generally more liked than others for sure, you have to admit that, right? 

[Morrigan2575]

But some character are generally more liked than others for sure, you have to admit that, right?

Oh, totally.

Yep, I've encountered Laurel fans who weirdly dislike Diggle because he deigned to point out that Oliver had a blind spot where Laurel was concerned and was very rightly hurt when Oliver chose to save Laurel even though she was protected at the time instead of coming to Diggle's aid like he promised he would when they agreed to take Deadshot down. I remember really hating Oliver when he did that.

Replying in hopes/fears thread. Edited July 29, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Password]

I'm surprised The Flash are having so many cross overs so early in the Flash first season. I believe EBR said the Flash will probably try to stand on its own feet before it happens. But I guess the EPs are excited to get the ball rolling.

I won't complain. I adored Barry Allen on Arrow and I really enjoy Caitlin and Cisco so onwards and upwards.

It's actually news to me that people hate Diggle. I guess I can see Laurel fans POV even though I didn't read it that way in the show. Diggle throwing shade at Laurel and Helena is thoroughly entertaining.

[strikera0]

But some character are generally more liked than others for sure, you have to admit that, right? 

 

Absolutely. I'm just saying that no one has a 100% positivity rate. Something like that doesn't exist.

Edited July 29, 2014 by strikera0

[ban1o]

Absolutely. I'm just saying that no one has a 100% positivity rate. Something like that doesn't exist.

yeah obviously :P But some characters have a lot more haters/detractors than others. Diggle, for example is a character that is generally well liked and has a small percentage of detractors. 

[apinknightmare]

That is a bit of an odd choice for Wildcat! To fit the comics it would have been better to cast a Michael Shanks type the way Smallville did for Hawkman. However, having this guy fill two roles - trainer and love interest - it's a tighter story in which screen time can be combined. With all the other stories to tell this is probably better.

Based on what EPs said, I got the impression that Felicity and Oliver have their 'declaration' in the premiere and then there's another serious talk before she visits Barry. I think Oliver being afraid of losing control is a solid theory for the first talk but I'm not sure about the second talk.

 

This is probably going to come off in a way that I don't mean it, but what did they say that made you think they have two talks? I'm just curious if I missed something with all the information that's come out over the past couple of days.

 

 

“It’s not a fake-out,” Kreisberg said. “Felicity and Oliver actually have a pretty raw discussion about what they mean to each other, which we’re really excited about, and [it] is actually an extension of what happened at the end of last year.”

 

Based on this quote from AK, I always thought the the declaration would come during the conversation not to pursue things further (basically because I figured the use of the word 'raw' indicates an "I love you, but" scenario).

[SilverLake0315]

And re: the Felicity/Barry double date thing, I'm not necessarily against it because I've never seen those two as anything other than a mild flirtation and I guess the show thinks they need to resolve what ever little unfinished business they might have but I do think the EPs really need to pick their spots with The Flash/Arrow crossovers because The Flash needs to stand on its own if its to be successful and Arrow already has more than enough going on right now. 

 

I don't mind seeing Oliver and Barry join forces to combat a common threat but Arrow, despite all its faults, is its own show and I feel like The Flash has to prove to me that it can be its own show too without Arrow's help. If that makes any sense... 

 

YES.  I couldn't agree more.  I'm always glad for more chances to see SA, but It really bugs the hell out of me that Arrow is being used to prop up Flash.  Let it stand on its own two feet and be a success (or not).  Arrow had to make it on its own; Flash should have to, as well.

[Password]

YES.  I couldn't agree more.  I'm always glad for more chances to see SA, but It really bugs the hell out of me that Arrow is being used to prop up Flash.  Let it stand on its own two feet and be a success (or not).  Arrow had to make it on its own; Flash should have to, as well.

And it's strange, from what I've seen of the flash pilot, it's better than the Arrow pilot. It looks fun and interesting with Barry Allen as someone who embraces his super powers and enjoys them for the good. It's so refreshing to see he doesn't see it as a burden...yet.

[ban1o]

And it's strange, from what I've seen of the flash pilot, it's better than the Arrow pilot. It looks fun and interesting with Barry Allen as someone who embraces his super powers and enjoys them for the good. It's so refreshing to see he doesn't see it as a burden...yet.

 I've seen the whole Flash Pilot (I'm not sure if you have) And although it's pretty good., it's kinda cheesy at points and is very rushed. They squeeze in his child hood, his mother's death, his life before the accident, the accident, him discovering his powers, learning to use his powers, people doubting if he can be a hero or not and him fighting and defeating a villain in one episode. I can understand how they want to squeeze as much in the pilot as possible to attract audiences, but I think Arrows pilot was  a lot better pacing wise. I love Grant Gustin as the Barry Allen though. And I'm sure pacing can be improved in later episodes. I really hope the Flash find it's own two feet and can be an independent show from Arrow. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by ban1o

[poetgirl925]

This is probably going to come off in a way that I don't mean it, but what did they say that made you think they have two talks? I'm just curious if I missed something with all the information that's come out over the past couple of days.

One of them (GB maybe? I can't remember) said that her trip to Central City follows a discussion of some kind. That's in episode 4 of Flash so it would have to be around episode 3-4 of Arrow. The timing makes it sound like two different discussions to me. I can't remember which interview this was though since I'm on spoiler overload at this point, really. Does anyone else remember this?

[Velocity23]

Stephen Amell interview

 

[Carrie Ann]

One of them (GB maybe? I can't remember) said that her trip to Central City follows a discussion of some kind. That's in episode 4 of Flash so it would have to be around episode 3-4 of Arrow. The timing makes it sound like two different discussions to me. I can't remember which interview this was though since I'm on spoiler overload at this point, really. Does anyone else remember this?

Yeah, I think it was the Berlanti interview. He says something like, "Well, Felicity and Oliver have...a discussion that makes her feel like now is a good time to visit Central City."

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I think it was the Berlanti interview. He says something like, "Well, Felicity and Oliver have...a discussion that makes her feel like now is a good time to visit Central City."

 

Ah, I see. I wonder if it's got something to do with Oliver telling Felicity that Barry's The Flash (or has superpowers)? This quote from GG makes me think it might:

 

 

"It’s pretty straight forward. She hasn’t seen me since the accident, and she knows more than I think she knows about what’s going on with me," Grant told Access of Felicity’s Episode 4 intentions at Comic-Con 2014 in San Diego. "She’s coming to catch up with me, basically."

 

I think the serious convo/end of pursuing the relationship will happen in the first ep. Maybe Oliver encourages her to get away for a little while (or pushes her toward Barry to help her move on?)?

Edited July 30, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, I was assuming the premiere will be like peak happiness and peak sadness for Olicity. So I think whatever the discussion is in ep 3 or 4, it probably relates to Barry specifically, or it is another sadfest for Olicity, and she just wants a break.

 

I strongly suspect the double date is just to serve both the O/F and B/I relationships, and if I had to guess, I'd say it comes about sort of awkwardly. Like, Iris makes an assumption that Barry's still interested in Felicity and suggests they all go out or something. I'm looking forward to that ep!

[dtissagirl]

One of them (GB maybe? I can't remember) said that her trip to Central City follows a discussion of some kind. That's in episode 4 of Flash so it would have to be around episode 3-4 of Arrow. The timing makes it sound like two different discussions to me. I can't remember which interview this was though since I'm on spoiler overload at this point, really. Does anyone else remember this?

It was Kreisberg, but my Google-fu is failing me right now, dammit. I too assumed it was a second discussion. The way he said the word "discussion", even, was different from the "raw discussion" talk about 301. I'm gonna keep looking.

Edited July 30, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Carrie Ann]

You're right, it was Kreisberg, at about :50, here: