Spoiler Discussion Thread

[BkWurm1]

I'm more than a little concerned with this brother and sister vibe they are setting up between Barry and Iris.  Could feel a little incest driven. 

[statsgirl]

It seems like they're going to do it as Iris feels like he's a brother and Barry feels something more.  

 

Having seen the scenes in the trailer with Grant Gustin and Danielle Pannebaker, I'm more worried that Iris is going to be Laurel, and Caitlyn is Felicity/Sara/someone he has more chemistry with.

[slayer2]

I hope the spoilers about Ted training Laurel are true. I, for one can't wait to see KC kicking ass and taking names, and from what she's expressed she seems excited as well. I'm sure it's annoying to be playing a damsel in distress so much of the time especially after coming off roughneck roles like Ruby and Ella, it's all a little dry. Bring on Wildcat!

[Starfish35]

Are there real spoilers about that? I missed it - I thought it was just fan speculation.

[BkWurm1]

Wildcat is the one that is supposed to have trained Canary but there has to be a reason why he would be at this point.  I've said it several times that I think the show should have opened with Laurel going to a cop's gym (named Wildcat's) to work out and have her dad's buddy, a former famous fighter and owner of the place, being kind of a second father to her.  He would have been the one she leaned on during her father's alcoholism.  He also would have been showing her and Sara moves since they were children.  If Sara was not going to be Canary, she could have always disliked the place and stayed home with mom (it smelled or something) 

 

I liked the idea that they could have had her training to be some bad ass fighter all her life but to have never thought of it as anything more than exercise only to be told one day by Ted Grant she's better than anyone who's come through the gym. 

 

Arghh!!! The producers drive me nuts.  It's too late for me to ever believe Laurel this late in the game can get up to the prowess of Black Canary no matter who trains her and it bugs me because it would have been so effing simple to lay groundwork.  So simple and yet they didn't do any of the work and unless Dr. Who pops in Starling City, there's no going back.  (though lets be honest, I don't think Laurel would be the one getting an invite onto the TARDIS)

Edited June 5, 2014 by BkWurm1

[KirkB]

At this point the only way I would buy it is if Laurel gets dosed with a lesser kind of Mirakuru or some other enhancing thing happens.

Edited June 5, 2014 by KirkB

[BunsenBurner]

I can't ever buy it. Laurel is just too bitchy.

[dtissagirl]

I shudder to think of what explanation they'll give for Laurel suddenly starting to seriously train to be a vigilante. Especially if they make her the DA. How will she ever find the time?

[wonderwall]

At this point the only way I would buy it is if Laurel gets dosed with a lesser kind of Mirakuru or some other enhancing thing happens.

This is such an easy way out for Laurel though... My main problem is that Laurel has been handed things the entirety of season 2, and her being injected/ enhanced would just be a flimsy way of making her BC or any type of superhero. 

 

To me, Laurel is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Nothing the writers do will actually make me like her. I was willing to give her a chance in season 2, but that got shot down faster than Laurel's supposed recovery. It's not fair, but it's just how I feel. Anything she does just gets on my nerves and I can't explain why.

[writersblock51]

 

I hope the spoilers about Ted training Laurel are true

What spoilers?  I've only read fan speculation about this.

 

There's nothing about Laurel that would ever have me buy into her becoming BC.  On the other hand, if she were to take on the role of Manhunter or something else that didn't require a massive leap in faith and dump of disbeiief, then I'd be inclined to read about it.  If I watch the show in S3, I won't be watching it live and all Laurel scenes will be skipped.

[ArctisTor]

To me, Laurel is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Nothing the writers do will actually make me like her.

I don't want to say never, however, at this point I think it depends on big changes in the writing staff.   I just don't trust what the writing has been for this character up to this point nor Cassidy's attempts to salvage anything of the character as written.  Hence, I've got so little faith in the future they're ever going to develop this character or what she's supposedly meant to become in a truly organic way.  I'd say 99% of the moments which we're supposed to perceive as awesome have either been very forced and/or come at the expense of other (better) characters, make them look stupid or inadequate, to make her look good.  As it stands, she is the epitome of The Wesley of "Arrow" for me and I have serious doubts that's ever going to change. 

[abhi]

Stephen Amell at Phoenix comic con has said that if anyone loves the Batman Villains then he is going to love the Season 3. (Maybe hinting towards Ra's or Lady Shiva). He has also said that we will see more DC characters in Season 3. And the DC character that he most wants to see in Arrow is Ra's al Ghul.

Also the Baby Mama is alive and it was Stephen Amell who had pitched the idea of how to introduce her in season 3 of Arrow which finally was adopted by the producers. So expect a lot of Baby Mama drama.

Edited June 7, 2014 by abhi

[quarks]

If this means Oliver will be sleeping with Catwoman, Poison Ivy, or even Harley Quinn, I may be out of here.

[KirkB]

Oh I am so not looking forward to baby drama. That could pretty much kill a show like this.

[wonderwall]

I'd like to think that Stephen has a good grasp on his character and what the audience thinks of him (especially the part where people think Oliver is a manwhore which he actually sort of is). Hopefully he pitched a really good idea that's in line with Oliver's character as well as something that doesn't include sex. I'm sorry, I'm done seeing Oliver being a manwhore. I'd like to see some growth now that he has accepted himself as a hero. 

 

And I'm not looking forward to the baby mama drama, but if it serves as a purpose to wedge Laurel/Oliver even more, then I wouldn't mind seeing it I guess? I don't see how bringing in an illegitimate kid could be an asset to this show, but I'm interested in seeing how the writers handle it. Maybe it'll contribute to Oliver's growth?

Edited June 8, 2014 by wonderwall

[quarks]

Is this the same panel where he said, in answer to the Felicity/Oliver question, that season three was going to be more about how much of his humanity Oliver wants to get back? Maybe the kid plays a role in that?

 

It would be a nice callback to some of the first season stuff, if so.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Count me among those not looking forward to the baby drama. It's one of the main reasons I dropped "Everwood" a long, long time ago. I'm crossing my fingers Greg Berlanti has learned how to handle babies in his shows since then.

[catrox14]

 

she is the epitome of The Wesley

 

Wait, do you mean Wesley Wyndham-Price? He was all kinds of awesome on Angel...

 

Stephen, Stephen, Stephen....what are you doing?  I can only assume that the Baby Mama drama was a foregone thing in the writing and he came up with a scenario to make it work well.  Because otherwise...what are you doing Stephen!?

[wonderwall]

crossing my fingers Greg Berlanti has learned how to handle babies in his shows since then.

Wait, is Greg Berlanti still an EP for Arrow? Or is he going to be more focused on Flash than Arrow? 

 

I hope he still is because I feel like he knows what he's doing and isn't afraid to chuck original plans out the window...

@quarks, yeah I think it was the same one. It's the phoenix comiccon I think? But Stephen talked about Oliver's humanity at the end of this response... So yeah, maybe Connor will come into play when it comes to Oliver taking back his humanity? 

 

Q: Do you think that when Oliver said ‘I love you’ to [Felicity] in the finale did he really mean it? And did he mean it in the way that we all hope he did?

 

Stephen Amell: "I think that whether or not that was a…he meant it, it was a bait and switch, it was some combination of the two things, we are going to find out very early in Season 3 if he meant it or not. I do think that the one thing that I’m absolutely positive that he meant was, in Episode 6 of Season 2, where he says to her that ‘because of what we do I don’t think that I could be with anybody that I could really care about’, I know that meant that. So, we, we shall see. But that’s going to be a big point to sort of segue-way to Season 3, we’re having some broad strokes discussions about it and what we are finding is that Oliver is in a spot in the flashbacks where all of the humanity that he has is being stripped away. The Oliver that you met in the pilot, that is a murderer, that was a killer, that’s the guy that he’s turning into. He’s losing his humanity. So, Season 3 is very much about how much of his humanity does he want to get back. Does he want to love somebody? Does he want to be a hero? Does he want to write his family’s name in Starling City and get back his company? What’s important to him? And, so we will clearly have to tackle what happened with Felicity very early on.”

[SmallScreenDiva]

I believe Greg Berlanti is still an "Arrow" EP. He's really more like the "overlord," with Guggenheim and Kreisberg sharing showrunner duties. Not sure who will be handling day-to-day for "The Flash," though. Kreisberg was the one who went with Berlanti to set up that spinoff.

[Starfish35]

I hope he still is because I feel like he knows what he's doing and isn't afraid to chuck original plans out the window...

I thought someone over at TWoP said that Berlanti was the one on Dawson's Creek who resisted the change from Dawson/Joey to Pacey/Joey. Am I remembering that wrong?

[statsgirl]

Berlanti is the Ideas Guy. His production company oversees a number of shows.  At the moment, in addition to Arrow and The Flash, there is Pan, The Mysteries of Laura and Green Lantern II.  He checks in with Guggenheim and Kreisburg who are responsible for the day-to-day running of the show and writing the episodes that Berlanti has ideas for.

 

 

So, Season 3 is very much about how much of his humanity does he want to get back. Does he want to love somebody? Does he want to be a hero? Does he want to write his family’s name in Starling City and get back his company? What’s important to him? And, so we will clearly have to tackle what happened with Felicity very early on.”

I don't see why they would have to tackle his speech to Felicity early on because that could wait till the Digglet gets born but okay, Mr, Amell, if that's what you want.

 

It was Stephen Amell's idea to have Oliver flanked by Roy and Sara in the tunnel fight scene so here's hoping his way of introducing Oliver's son is as good.

[wonderwall]

Huh... I thought that he was pro Pacey/Joey?

 

Regardless, even AK and MG said that they learned a lot from GB because of how he doesn't see original plans as something that's set, they said that GB wasn't afraid to change the narrative and deviate from original plans...

 

Yeah can someone clarify please? :)

 

@statsgirl, maybe he meant that Oliver will acknowledge this stuff early on but leave the actual growth for the latter half of the season? IDK. I hope this is what happens. I don't want Oliver's growth to be like Laurel's supposed growth (fast and easy which is sort of akin to bad sex).

Edited June 8, 2014 by wonderwall

[Starfish35]

Ha, they're doing a Green Lantern II? I wasn't aware of that.

Yeah, I remember a discussion on the TWoP thread that left me with the impression that Berlanti was decidedly against Pacey/Joey and didn't appreciate being forced to change, and it was framed in the context of this possibly being a bad thing for Arrow regarding Oliver/Laurel.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Starfish35

[Morrigan2575]

Someone at TWOP said Berlanti was against it but someone on another board provided a link to a biography that shows Berlanti was the guy who went for Pacey/Joey and ended the show with Pacey/Joey.

I'm not sure I'd label Berlanti just the idea man, he's pretty much the head hancho, it's Berlanti Productions, so CEO?

AK will be the show runner for The Flash, not sure if MG will be sole Show Runner for Arrow or if AK/MG will still share the responsibility.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[calliope1975]

Count me among those not looking forward to the baby drama. It's one of the main reasons I dropped "Everwood" a long, long time ago.

 

 

Baby drama is exactly why I dropped Everwood, and I loved that show. I hope it's done well because I sure know I'm always hoping for more kids in my action shows. And there are so many great child actors. /to clarify, that was total sarcasm

 

I'm almost a bit more concerned that the star of the show is having to come up with story lines that make sense - SA did it with Sara on the island, I believe and now this. I'm all for actors contributing, but it makes me wonder if he's trying to stop the inevitable criticism of the writers before it happens since they're not known for their logic or continuity.

 

And I also hope someone, preferably Diggle, addresses that the "life I lead" line is both stupid and nonsensical. I get that Oliver might believe that it's true, but I think the events of S2 have debunked that notion. If he doesn't want to be with Felicity (or Laurel, or Sara, or whomever) fine, but own it. Stop with the lame excuses.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm almost a bit more concerned that the star of the show is having to come up with story lines that make sense - SA did it with Sara on the island, I believe and now this.

According to Barrowman it was his husband's idea to make Malcolm Thea's dad, the EPs wanted to make him Oliver's father. So it wouldn't be the first time an actor made a suggestion for the story/show.

[Starfish35]

Someone at TWOP said Berlanti was against it but someone on another board provided a link to a biography that shows Berlanti was the guy who went for Pacey/Joey and ended the show with Pacey/Joey.

Good to know. Thanks for clearing up my confusion. :)

[formerlyfreedom]

Hey everybody - this is the Spoiler topic for Arrow - if you are looking to Speculate about what is going to happen, please take it over to the Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers topic.

 

Spoilers are links to articles, posts, tweets, etc, that contain info on the upcoming season, and spoiler discussion is conversation about those links. If you want to talk about what you'd like to see happen, or discuss theories, please do it over there.

 

If you are looking for a post you thought you made here, go over there to check; we'll be moving speculation posts to that topic.

 

Please keep in mind, if you take a conversation over there that includes spoiler information, be sure to spoiler tag it. Thanks for your help!

[dtissagirl]

At least they were kind enough to alert the audience about Oliver's secret kid, so we know it's coming. When the kid pops up with no warning? That's grounds for quitting a show in my book.

And there's gotta be a reason why they gave Oliver a secret kid AND THEN told us Dig is also gonna be a father, right?

[statsgirl]

Next season's theme seems to be Father/Child, with Diggle's baby, Oliver secret child, Malcolm corrupting Thea and Felicity's daddy backstory.

 

Yeah, I bet Diggle is going to have a kid so that he can mentor Oliver on being a good father.  I still don't understand why they have to address Oliver's statement to Felicity early in the season though. There is plenty of humanity-searching available for him  -- Thea, how to mentor Roy, should he get the company back? meeting his own kid -- before he gets to whether he should be having a relationship.

Edited June 8, 2014 by statsgirl

[Moviesnob]

I'm betting if they do the 5-month time jump, it'll come up in some kind of discussion with Diggle about holding Felicity at arms length and whatnot - letting the audience know, but not Felicity. Then we get to watch the dance for the majority of Season 3, I'm guessing.

[Morrigan2575]

They are definitely doing a 5-6 month time jump, MG said it in a couple of interviews right before the finale aired.

[formerlyfreedom]

FYI, I just moved a bunch of posts over the Hopes and Fears topic. Please keep it on topic in here about Spoilers and Spoiler discussion. Thanks!

[Danny Franks]

http://tvline.com/2014/06/03/nashville-season-3-spoilers-juliette-pregnant-hayden-panettiere/

 

That sounds to me like having been used to set up The Flash, Felicity/Barry is now pretty dead.

 

They pretty much killed it in Three Ghosts, I thought. They had Barry recognise Felicity's feelings for Oliver, and Felicity not deny them, and then they had Barry hint at his own unresolved feelings for a mysterious other woman (who was obviously Iris). I was actually more baffled by the fact that they had Felicity visiting him on a semi-regular basis despite only having known him for a few days.

 

Attempting an inter-show romance would be really, really dumb, if you ask me. Because Felicity wouldn't be a regular, or even recurring, cast member on The Flash, and Barry wouldn't be showing up on Arrow any time soon. So what is there for anyone to invest in, as an audience member? Comments like, 'I went on a date with Felicity again. It was great. She's gone back to Starling City, now'? Sizzling. From what I hear, Barry has yet more hot girls lining up to have angsty, miscommunication based non-relationships with him on his own show. Felicity doesn't need to be dragged into that.

 

So, Season 3 is very much about how much of his humanity does he want to get back. Does he want to love somebody? Does he want to be a hero? Does he want to write his family’s name in Starling City and get back his company? What’s important to him? And, so we will clearly have to tackle what happened with Felicity very early on.”

 

 

Huh. This is pretty much what I just said season 3 should have as its theme, in another thread on here. It does seem like the logical and natural progression for Oliver, based on how the first two seasons panned out. He's spent much of his time turning the Arrow into a hero, that I think he does have to start focusing on Oliver Queen a little bit more.

[Password]

Someone graciously translated the interviews CH and EBR did recently.

 

http://alwaysforevermc23.tumblr.com/post/88385110446/the-love-story-between-oliver-and-felicity-in

 

http://alwaysforevermc23.tumblr.com/post/88382763941/what-will-the-followers-of-arrow-find-in-season

 

Please allow me to cry over even the mention of a love triangle!!!! This is exactly what I dread and fear and why?? Why must they go down this route. I would've preferred her to properly fall for someone else, and yes Oliver realises he's been an idiot, than a love triangle.

 

Also, Felicity is in love with Oliver? Meh really? I didn't realise her feelings go that deep yet, certainly it seems like she's not allowing herself to sort of wallow in them. I suppose I'm glad she said she's in love with him but how much? Yay.

 

I'm also glad CH was a little upset over how Thea and Roy ended. They were so adorable, young love and all that. I hope they find their way back to each other because I still can't get over the boxing gloves.

[Velocity23]

Translated interviews with Emily and Colton
http://alwaysforever.../Felicity-Smoak


 

 

 

Who will be the big villain for season three? Ra’s al Ghul’s name rings loud…
EBR: It is going to be very very important and that’s all I can say… I know more than what Colton does. (She tells him in his ear and he does not look like he believes it.)

Does this mean connection to Felicity's backstory?

[Velocity23]

 

Please allow me to cry over even the mention of a love triangle!!!! This is exactly what I dread and fear and why?? Why must they go down this route. I would've preferred her to properly fall for someone else, and yes Oliver realises he's been an idiot, than a love triangle.

So Barry will be  involved in 2 love triangles ? Because the interviews i read made it seem that Barry/Iris/Eddie is going to be love triangle over there.

[statsgirl]

 

I would've preferred her to properly fall for someone else, and yes Oliver realises he's been an idiot, than a love triangle.

Isn't that kind of the definition of a love triangle though?  Two people who both want a third?  I think it was inevitable unless Felicity doesn't date at all because either Oliver doesn't react which means he doesn't care (which would negate what they've been saying about the scenes in Unthinkable) or he does and you get a triangle.

 

What she says is "Maybe there will be a love triangle somewhere that will give the situation a push" so maybe it will be used for character development and won't be so bad.

 

 

 

Since EBR knows more about the big villain than Colton does, it's a pretty fair guess that it's related to Felicity's back story.

 

 

Felicity is such an endearing and intelligent girl that there are a thousand guys that would marry her right now.

I love Colton  a little bit for saying that.

 

 

 

I like how brave Felicity has demonstrated herself to be, but yes, to be in the action, she would have to sacrifice elements of her personality…She IS Oliver’s polygraph. She makes him question certain things. If Felciity was to sacrifice all of that, I would much rather her stay the way she is.

I don’t think she will get to be a hero. In the second season she becomes a braver character, she does more physical things, but (I’m guessing) computers/hacking is her superpower.

And kudos to EBR for wanting to maintain the integrity of her character over the chance to wear a superhero costume.

Edited June 10, 2014 by statsgirl

[ArctisTor]

Wait, do you mean Wesley Wyndham-Price? He was all kinds of awesome on Angel...

 

The Wesley (also known as Creator's Pet).  I've also seen Laurel referred to as the Scrappy which I feel is also apropos.

 

 

 

Danny Franks: Attempting an inter-show romance would be really, really dumb, if you ask me. Because Felicity wouldn't be a regular, or even recurring, cast member on The Flash, and Barry wouldn't be showing up on Arrow any time soon. So what is there for anyone to invest in, as an audience member?

Most likely?  There'd be little to nothing to invest in.  If Felicity/Barry still exists at all, I'd guess that - probably just as much as the Iris/Eddie story in "The Flash" - it's written as little else but a cursory roadblock to keep from paying any significant dividends on the Oliver/Felicity and Barry/Iris stories.  I'd also guess Eddie on "The Flash" will barely even be a character or if he is, probably presented from the off as more than a little disposable.

Edited June 10, 2014 by ArctisTor

[dtissagirl]

Thanks for the links to the translated interviews!

 

I think I'd be fine if the romantic triangle is Felicity/Her New Love Interest/Oliver. I'll throw things at the TV if Laurel is involved in ANY romantic triangle.

[Morrigan2575]

Does this mean connection to Felicity's backstory?

 

I think they were goofing off.  I really doubt that anyone beyond the EPs and SA knows much about S3 just yet. 

 

Unless she knows what the Felicity stuff is that was supposed to be in S2 and got pushed to S3.  I know that in her interview with PopSugar she talked about sitting down with MG on the flight from Vancouver to LA and they talked about Felicity.  During the interview she said that what MG told her blew her mind.  However, this was back in Nov/Dec when they were filming 2.13 or 2.14 so it's possible that she was talking about the season finale, not the Felicity backstory that got pushed to S3.

[Password]

Triangles generally aren't that much of a triangle. It's 2 people with a third who gets strung along. I normally end up disliking the person in the middle of the triangle because the third party gets the rough end of the stick, or the middle person plays with 2 people's feelings. I don't even see the Tommy/Laurel/Oliver thing in s1 as a triangle because I never thought Oliver wanted to get involved in any of it, until the final few episodes. Unless the third party in what I assume is a Oliver/Felicity/Other triangle understands Olicity, I don't want someone getting hurt for no good reason. Let Felicity have someone for goodness sake, she deserves it.

[quarks]

My main issue with a love triangle is I feel I've already seen this on the show - Oliver, Laurel and Tommy in the first season, Isabel, Barry and Sara in the second season.  And I guess even arguably Robert, Moira and Malcolm. So, as amusing as Oliver going all GRR was, anything else at this point feels a bit been there, done that. Not to mention that if this is a reference to Felicity finding someone else, said someone else will almost certainly be a Temporary Love Interest, both hurting my little shipper heart and making it difficult for me to feel too invested.

 

That said, the word in Spanish was "quizas,"  (maybe/perhaps) so this sounds more like speculation than anything else at this point. Now, if more is said at later cons, I am just going to have to brace myself. 

[statsgirl]

I think we've got off pretty lightly on terms of triangles on this show.  The only real one has been Oliver/Laurel/Tommy, a classic because both Oliver and Tommy wanted Laurel and she couldn't decide which to be with.  Robert/Moira/Malcolm was in the past and we don't know if it was a real triangle of emotions or Moira wanting to get back at Robert for sleeping around.  Oliver slept with Isabel but he didn't seem to want to be with her in a relationship and Barry had more press than an actual triangle. People are still arguing whether Oliver was really jealous of Barry or not.

 

The thing I liked about Sara was that Felicity actually liked her and thought she was good for Oliver, not the usual thing you see in a triangle. So while I don't like triangles on my TV shows (hated season 9 on ER), there's been nothing on Arrow approaching the mess that was Castle in seasons 3 and 4 where when one was with someone, the other was pining and as soon as that relationship ended, the other person got into one.  

 

I'm anticipating Oliver and Diggle having a discussion early in the season about Diggle's new family responsibilities and questioning whether Oliver can have that too, ending with Oliver reinforcing his "I can't be with someone I really care about" belief, and then the reintroduction of baby and baby mama a bit later in the season.  And maybe some dynamite to get Oliver to reconsider.

 

I wouldn't mind so much a triangle of Oliver/Felicity/other-alpha-male-likes-her.  I'd hate a baby mama/Oliver/Felicity one.

[Lisin]

For future reference a spoiler is something that has not aired on the show. You are free to speculate on what these may mean, but speculation based on events that happened on the show are not spoilers and will be moved to the speculation thread (or deleted if it keeps happening) if posted here.

 

Because this show is based on a comic in depth discussion of a character or name that has been mentioned on the show, that is also a name from the comics and what hearing that  name or seeing that character may mean will be considered a spoiler. For example, Ted Kord discussion would go here if we're speculating about if we will see Blue Beetle soon because Moira name dropped being at a Ted Kord gala. 

[abhi]

Amell had said at Phoenix Comic con that we will be seeing a new super hero costume early in season 3. Since Roy already got his costume in Season 3 finale, I think we will be seeing a new superhero joining Arrow, with a possibility of spin off? 

 

Besides, I don't think Emily or Colton know too much about season 3 and they were just speculating. They only people , I think, who are in the know how are the EPs and Stephen. Or maybe Felicity will get a new love interest and the show puts an end to the Olicity drama.

Edited June 11, 2014 by abhi

[wonderwall]

Olicity as well as Felicity are Arrow's current money maker. The sheer amount of mentions they get puts Arrow on the map so the writers definitely won't put an end to their possible romantic relationship. While I'm happy that this is the case, it's just business :/

[abhi]

I think the Olicity stuff is off putting to a lot of the fan base and a lot of potential male viewers don't take Arrow seriously because of these stuffs and dismiss Arrow as another typical CW show. Amell's facebook comments when an "Olicity" fanart is shown is a good example of the fatigue.

 

Besides, these fan-girls are atrocious and have blurred reality and fiction. They have attacked Cassandra, Amell's wife, on Twitter constantly to the point that she has to retort on her Twitter. It's not Vampire Dairies where majority of the demo is female. Arrow's male demo is more than double of that of female and all this shipping stuff is off putting to the male viewers.

Edited June 11, 2014 by abhi

[Lisin]

Guys, please take a look at your posts and decide if they're spoiler discussion or not. If not please move them to the appropriate place, you can copy them, paste them in the appropriate place and then edit them here to "dupe" or "moved to X" I'm going to start cleaning up this topic today, if you don't want me making the call you've got some time to do it yourself.