Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Angel12d]

I think they have every right to be pissed at Oliver for not cluing them in on his plan but it's better that they're just hurt than, you know, dead. Right?

Edited May 7, 2015 by Angel12d

[Scribbles]

Oh to see Quentin when he finds yet another daughter is chilling in Nanda Parbat with the league, and to sweeten the deal...Oliver is involved.

[Password]

I'm strangely zen about Olicity. I'll agree with @10Eleven12 about Oliver and Felicity starting over. I thought that was what the "riding off into the sunset" thing was about. Not so much honeymoon but, we have trust issues to work out so let's do it. If she's mad I would understand. If she's not, I would understand. Sending Barry to save them would IMO go a long way to making amends because THEY WOULDN'T BE DEAD.

But trust issues I can definitely understand.

[statsgirl]

I want a gif from that promo of Diggle punching Oliver. I could just watch it again and again and feel better.

 

Well, they'll know it was fake when they don't die from it. They'll know he was trustworthy when he asked them to trust him. 

But it won't erase the fact that as they passed out, they were thinking they were going to die and Oliver had abandoned them or worse, helped kill them. 

 

It's like throwing someone who can't swim into the deep water, and just when they think they're going to drown, pulling them out and saying "I wasn't going to let you die after all". You can't take away the fear and hurt and loss they felt when they thought they were dying by saying it was just a plot.  Forget Felicity for the moment and think about what Diggle would have gone through as he was losing consciousness, losing Lyla and thinking Sara was going to grow up without a father.

[Password]

Hmm somewhat confused about the "even if he doesn't think so".

Was it not Oliver whom sent Barry, but another contingency plan from Felicity? How did they get inoculated? Did Oliver swap the viles?

Questions questions.

[apinknightmare]

But it won't erase the fact that as they passed out, they were thinking they were going to die and Oliver had abandoned them or worse, helped kill them. 

 

He let John know he was faking. He told Felicity he needed her to trust him. Seems like Malcolm's fake might've bought him enough time to switch out the vials Ra's had. Oliver was dealing with a shaky timeline, he told Malcolm as much. He didn't know what Ra's was going to do when he was going to do it. 

 

So, yeah. It's awful that they passed out thinking they were dying, but he told them as much as he could and just hoped they trusted him enough to go the rest of the way. I think the not dying is going to be key since he obviously told them the truth. I won't blame people for being angry, won't blame them if they're not. 

 

 

It's like throwing someone who can't swim into the deep water, and just when they think they're going to drown, pulling them out and saying "I wasn't going to let you die after all".

 

This would be true if Oliver hadn't consistently, for three years now, done everything he could to keep them out of harm's way. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Angel12d]

I have a feeling that Malcolm is like triple crossing them all and he's gonna be the new Ra's. If not him, then Nyssa will take his place. After she skewers him through his heart. 

 

I'm thinking random thoughts, don't mind me.

[statsgirl]

In the promo, Barry says that Oliver's "got this covered". At another point he says that Oliver needs their help.  Aren't those situations mutually exclusive?

 

This would be true if Oliver hadn't consistently, for three years now, done everything he could to keep them out of harm's way. 

Except when he's actively throwing them into danger.

 

Last season, it could be considered an awful thing he did, putting Felicity in Slade's sites.  But he got her consent when he asked "Do you understand?" just as he had Diggle's and Felicity's consent in season 1 to stay and help out during the Undertaking.  Informed consent both times.

 

This time, there was no consent much less informed consent.  That's a line too far for me.

[BkWurm1]

Yeah, but they don't know that.  The man she loves, who supposedly loves her, made her think she and all her loved ones were dying while he coldly walked away.  At least IRL, no relationship would survive that.

Coldly walked away to preserve the secret that he was actually saving them.  

 

I want a gif from that promo of Diggle punching Oliver. I could just watch it again and again and feel better.

 

But it won't erase the fact that as they passed out, they were thinking they were going to die and Oliver had abandoned them or worse, helped kill them. 

 

It's like throwing someone who can't swim into the deep water, and just when they think they're going to drown, pulling them out and saying "I wasn't going to let you die after all". You can't take away the fear and hurt and loss they felt when they thought they were dying by saying it was just a plot.  Forget Felicity for the moment and think about what Diggle would have gone through as he was losing consciousness, losing Lyla and thinking Sara was going to grow up without a father.

Yes, Oliver deserves a punch because they all went through something very traumatic but it's not like throwing someone who can't swim into the deep water, and just when they think they're going to drown, pulling them out and saying "I wasn't going to let you die after all", it's like being in the water drowning and seeing someone and calling for help and seeing them run away and you thinking you are being left to die when in reality the person running away leads the person away that would still kill you if you got out of the water while he's also secretly triggered your rescue.

 

You might go down believing Oliver is a rat skunk killer but the person there to offer you a towel gets to tell you, no he didn't abandon you to your fate, he saved you and is still out there trying to stop the man that would have killed you. 

This time, there was no consent much less informed consent.  That's a line too far for me.

 

The consent came the moment they answered his call for help.   They weren't forced or tricked into coming to Nanda Parbat.  They know the risks. 

[statsgirl]

They knew the risks of the virus.  But they believed that Oliver was going to help them stop it because Malcolm told them so, not that Oliver turn  his back on them and walk away as the vial fizzed down to their deaths.

 

Pretty sure Felicity's belief in Oliver took a hit when he announced he was going to marry Nyssa too..

[Lady Calypso]

They knew the risks of the virus.  But they believed that Oliver was going to help them stop it because Malcolm told them so, not that Oliver turn  his back on them and walk away as the vial fizzed down to their deaths.

 

Pretty sure Felicity's belief in Oliver took a hit when he announced he was going to marry Nyssa too..

 

Perhaps. But here's the question that needs to be answered: what would have happened if Oliver had been brainwashed? Let's say Malcolm gets all of them to Nanda Parbat because of whatever reason. He tells Ra's that Oliver is faking because he's a lying liar who lies and wants to save his own ass. The real virus would have been smashed on the floor and they all would have been dead. 

 

Oliver had no time to tell any of them the backup plan. He had one minute to see how Diggle was doing after he kidnapped Lyla and he possibly was going to hint at the backup plan if it came to that. So, unfortunately, trust had to be broken there. But when they wake up, they should realize that Oliver had no other choice and he saved them. And hopefully they let him explain, because Malcolm started this whole mess when he got Thea to kill Sara. Oliver just happened to put faith in the wrong guy because of his relationship with Thea, he survived getting kicked off a mountain and stabbed, and then got forced into becoming Ra's and he had to choose the best way to save everyone and get rid of Ra's. So....let's just blame Malcolm.

 

I hope there are spoilers about the finale that involve Malcolm getting drop kicked in the face. Preferably from Diggle and Felicity. At the same time. Then Thea can shoot an arrow into his arm.

[apinknightmare]

In the promo, Barry says that Oliver's "got this covered". At another point he says that Oliver needs their help.  Aren't those situations mutually exclusive?

 

Except when he's actively throwing them into danger.

 

Last season, it could be considered an awful thing he did, putting Felicity in Slade's sites.  But he got her consent when he asked "Do you understand?" just as he had Diggle's and Felicity's consent in season 1 to stay and help out during the Undertaking.  Informed consent both times.

 

This time, there was no consent much less informed consent.  That's a line too far for me.

I can think of one situation where Oliver has ever left one of them to the wolves, and that was Diggle with Deadshot in S1. These people know what they're into-they voluntarily do it. Please do not act like Oliver is consistently leaving them to die by playing games with their lives like he doesn't take their safety seriously. He takes calculated risks with them. He did that tonight.

Oliver might not expect them to ever forgive him for what he did, but I think they will and it wouldn't upset me in the least. The other option here was, you know, THEM ACTUALLY DYING.

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Oliver takes risks with his team that he himself calculates. He doesn't always let them calculate the risks for themselves even when he should.

 

This whole season has been about Oliver doing stupid things and making stupid decisions because he's the one deciding on no input and he won't let Diggle and especially Felicity have any input into them. With Diggle, it's about the mission, and Diggle hopefully will not let Oliver get away with putting Lyla at risk. With Felicity, it's about the mission and about their personal relationship.

 

I don't want it all to be hand-waved away, that Oliver made stupid decisions and  badly hurt the people who should be closest to him, including Thea, but it all gets excused because he suffers so much.  It's one of the things that spoiled House M.D. and I'm afraid it's going to end up spoiling this show too.

[SleepDeprived]

So no Waller connection? Where's ARGUS in all this? What has been the point of Hong Kong?

 

I still think that we'll get a reveal that Shrieve was actually working for/with H.I.V.E. in Hong Kong. Since Damien Darhk was former LoA, I would think that he might have similar ideas about "immolating cities to cleanse evil and allow it to build anew" or whatever the spiel was. Which is why Ra's was very familiar of the Alpha/Omega virus when Maseo came to him because maybe they heard of its potential to strike terror 'cause Ra's has been after Darhk for a century now.

 

I have a feeling that Malcolm is like triple crossing them all and he's gonna be the new Ra's. If not him, then Nyssa will take his place. After she skewers him through his heart. 

 

I'm thinking random thoughts, don't mind me.

 

Not so random. I have a very good terrible feeling that Malcolm will become the new Ra's. There is a shot in the promo of a man standing in front of the Lazarus Pit with the LoA bowing before him. The man looked like he had a very good head of hair, unlike Oliver's buzz cut or Ra's Severus Snape-inspired hairdo.

[apinknightmare]

Oliver takes risks with his team that he himself calculates. He doesn't always let them calculate the risks for themselves even when he should.

 

They calculated the risks when they decided to trust that he had a plan and go to NP to help stop the virus. They were going to the League of Assassins, they had to all know there was a chance they might not get out.

 

Oliver had already made the decision not to tell them about his plan when he joined the League because he was worried he wouldn't be able to sell it if they were in on it (and I think that was a good idea - Felicity trying to escape with him and him going back willingly after probably did a lot to gain trust with Ra's). He told Malcolm that the timeline was WAY accelerated, so he was kind of flying by the seat of his pants. He might have wanted to tell Diggle but got cut off, he couldn't get a moment alone with Felicity because Ra's would've been on that like no one's business. He probably didn't want to tell Laurel because he she'd argue him to death, Malcolm couldn't be trusted. Maybe he could've said something to Ray. 

 

He had to act brainwashed in front of them while they were in front of Ra's and had exactly two seconds to ask them to trust him before they got locked up. The safest course of action for everyone involved to make sure Oliver had complete control of the situation was to not tell them. If he said "hey, by the way, I'm totes going to act like I'm giving you the virus but you're gonna pass out when I do, don't be scared," what do you think would've happened? Half would've trusted him, the other half would've argued against it, and probably tried something with a guard and then they all die. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[BkWurm1]

They knew the risks of the virus.  But they believed that Oliver was going to help them stop it because Malcolm told them so, not that Oliver turn  his back on them and walk away as the vial fizzed down to their deaths.

 

Pretty sure Felicity's belief in Oliver took a hit when he announced he was going to marry Nyssa too..

My answer about knowing the risks was in response the question of consent.   Oliver didn't tell them they weren't going to die but I do believe they just being in Nanda Parbat means they consent to working with Oliver to survive even if that survival comes at a high emotional cost.  He didn't have a chance to get their permission to leave them in a situation that looked like he was abandoning them, but I do consider this similar to him taking other highly questionable risks like leaving Felicity as bait.   Then he had her say she didn't want to be safe and then in addition to that, that she understood.   In this case the consent is implicit when they answered his call for help.  Yes, their faith in him took several hits but that shaken faith will look a lot stronger after the fact when they realize that they could have had faith in him.  

 

Oliver takes risks with his team that he himself calculates. He doesn't always let them calculate the risks for themselves even when he should.

 

This whole season has been about Oliver doing stupid things and making stupid decisions because he's the one deciding on no input and he won't let Diggle and especially Felicity have any input into them. With Diggle, it's about the mission, and Diggle hopefully will not let Oliver get away with putting Lyla at risk. With Felicity, it's about the mission and about their personal relationship.

 

I don't want it all to be hand-waved away, that Oliver made stupid decisions and  badly hurt the people who should be closest to him, including Thea, but it all gets excused because he suffers so much.  It's one of the things that spoiled House M.D. and I'm afraid it's going to end up spoiling this show too.

I don't feel like I'm hand waving or giving Oliver a free pass.  He does need to be more willing to put his trust in his team and let them make their own calculated risks but I actually see what he did as doing just that.  He realized he couldn't do this on his own and asked for their help.  They made their own calculated risks and came.  With reservations about him, but not the mission and though they failed (cause Ra's laid a trap) Oliver saved them anyway.  

 

We see in the previews that he's still trying to do this on his own but I can't help but understand.  Everyone almost just died because he just asked them for help.  Would he even believe he has a right to ask more of them?  Diggle doesn't respect or trust him.  He just technically betrayed Felicity by marrying another woman.  I think we are going to see him ask for help or maybe I'm wrong and he just goes to them to tell them to leave Starling City ,that and get punched by Diggle and you know he lets it happen because he feels he deserves it and I don't even disagree but I also don't see what he could have done differently.   

[Jillibean]

 

So, yeah. It's awful that they passed out thinking they were dying, but he told them as much as he could and just hoped they trusted him enough to go the rest of the way. I think the not dying is going to be key since he obviously told them the truth. I won't blame people for being angry, won't blame them if they're not.

I totally agree. Yes, what he did was pretty awful and cold, and I was mad at him for it. But I think "I was trying to save thousands of people" is a pretty compelling excuse. Leaving Barry aside, because obviously if you pull him in none of what is happening really makes any sense because he could fix it all in one long jog, if Oliver let on to Ra's that he might still have some Oliver in him, he wouldn't have the opportunity to get the virus and prevent its spread. And also, Ra's could have actually killed his team with swords and stuff. This way sucked emotionally, but as noted above, no one is actually going to die or even be hurt in imprisonment, AND he still has a shot at saving Starling City. So yes, cold and anger-inducing, and I'm really looking forward to Oliver getting punched, but in my opinion ultimately forgivable under the circumstances.

 

 Though I will admit I can't disagree that Oliver should have given the team a better indication that he wasn't going to let them all die--his confessions to Felciity and Dig were apparently too vague. But I also think that was mostly plot-driven, because it was more emotionally impactful to have the team think they were dying. It would be really nice if the whole thing were acknowledged and discussed next week, but I'm not hopeful.

 

I really hope we get further clarification on Malcolm and what he's actually doing. JB is a great actor, but even he can't tie his season-long storyline together without a few more lines of dialogue. 

 

I see this ending with Oliver and Nyssa taking down Ra's together, which I think would be very appropriate. The timings seems a bit odd--the plane would logically come first in the episode before any Starling scenes, so might Ra's get bested early and the rest of the episode deal with the containment of the virus or fighting off League lackeys?

Edited May 7, 2015 by Jillibean

[catahoulamama]

Well, they'll know it was fake when they don't die from it. They'll know he was trustworthy when he asked them to trust him. 

IDK, that's a little like leaving someone in a burning building while they call to you for help and watch you walk away and then you call the fire dept. once you get to safety instead of taking them with you to escape the fire.  Afterwards, you're all "hey, it's not like you *died* or anything and I *did* call for help".  Regardless of the outcome, they thought he left them for dead. Not cool.

[tv echo]

I am less concerned about the technicalities of annulling the (unconsummated) marriage than I am about why the EPs would even consider letting the marriage continue (since MG has said that they aren't sure yet whether to let the marriage carry into S4)...

 

When I was watching the wedding ceremony, I was thinking 'wow, those words are pretty serious-sounding.'  Then I had the extremely cringe-worthy thought that maybe the EPs were going to use some magical crap and have those words (magically) emotionally bond Nyssa & Oliver together going forward into next season.  However, given the backlash over the forced wedding, I don't see how they could possibly go this route.

 

"There is no vow more sacred, nor covenant more holy than the one between man and woman. With this ceremony, your souls are bound together, forever joined. You will never be free. You will always be held captive by your love for each other."

Edited May 7, 2015 by tv echo

[chaos is welcome]

Because olicity road block of course. Or mg was trolling. Either way....

It was over the top and yucky and takes me outside the show, just like Laurel becoming the bc so quickly and believably. When more things take you out of the show then keep u in it, it's time to cut ties

Edited May 7, 2015 by chaos is welcome

[Velocity23]

Dig & Thea are gonna team up xD

[SleepDeprived]

I am less concerned about the technicalities of annulling the (unconsummated) marriage than I am about why the EPs would even consider letting the marriage continue (since MG has said that they aren't sure yet whether to let the marriage carry into S4)...

 

When I was watching the wedding ceremony, I was thinking 'wow, those words are pretty serious-sounding.'  Then I had the extremely cringe-worthy thought that maybe the EPs were going to use some magical crap and have those words (magically) emotionally bond Nyssa & Oliver together going forward into next season.  However, given the backlash over the forced wedding, I don't see how they could possibly go this route.

 

"There is no vow more sacred, nor covenant more holy than the one between man and woman. With this ceremony, your souls are bound together, forever joined. You will never be free. You will always be held captive by your love for each other."

 

Was this the ceremonial speech? I was distracted by Diggle and Felicity holding each other while "dying" so I didn't really pay much attention, I guess. Written down like that, it pretty much just reads like the priestess describing what the ceremony is supposed to signify rather than something that is actual marriage vows or, possibly, a magical bonding ritual. It doesn't even say "this man, Al Sah-Him, and this woman, Nyssa al Ghul" to specifically name whose souls are being bound. Plus, that qualifier of always being "held captive by [their] love for each other," of which Nyssa and Oliver feel none towards each other would, technically, if it was a magical bonding ritual, nullify the marriage, no? And since magic has to be very specific to actually take, otherwise crazy hijinks happens (or so I've seen from movies and teevee), then I think it may be safe to say the writers won't take this route.

[AyChihuahua]

Of course they'll forgive him, because that's how the writers will write it.  And there are even logical reasons for what he did.  But I don't think they should ever forgive him, and I really don't see how they can ever trust him again.  From then on with basically everything he does, they won't know what's real and what's some "greater good" plan.  I'm not saying he's a villain because of what he did, I'm saying they should GTFO and never speak to him again.

[blixie]

 

You will always be held captive by your love for each other."

 

 

Well that's the kicker now innit? They do not love each other so they will not, CAN not, be captive to it.

[apinknightmare]

Of course they'll forgive him, because that's how the writers will write it.  And there are even logical reasons for what he did.  But I don't think they should ever forgive him, and I really don't see how they can ever trust him again.  From then on with basically everything he does, they won't know what's real and what's some "greater good" plan.  I'm not saying he's a villain because of what he did, I'm saying they should GTFO and never speak to him again.

 

"We went into Nanda Parbat and tried to fight the League four on one hundred and you made sure we got out alive, you asshole!"

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[tv echo]

Was this the ceremonial speech? I was distracted by Diggle and Felicity holding each other while "dying" so I didn't really pay much attention, I guess. Written down like that, it pretty much just reads like the priestess describing what the ceremony is supposed to signify rather than something that is actual marriage vows or, possibly, a magical bonding ritual. It doesn't even say "this man, Al Sah-Him, and this woman, Nyssa al Ghul" to specifically name whose souls are being bound. Plus, that qualifier of always being "held captive by [their] love for each other," of which Nyssa and Oliver feel none towards each other would, technically, if it was a magical bonding ritual, nullify the marriage, no? And since magic has to be very specific to actually take, otherwise crazy hijinks happens (or so I've seen from movies and teevee), then I think it may be safe to say the writers won't take this route.

Yes.  The LOA priestess says, "There is no vow more sacred, nor covenant more holy than the one between man and woman. With this ceremony, your souls are bound together, forever joined. You will never be free. You will always be held captive by your love for each other."  Then Nyssa tries to stab Oliver, but he stops her and says "Continue."  Cut to Diggle and Felicity.  Cut back to LOA priestess saying, "We offer blessings.  The union is sealed."

Edited May 7, 2015 by tv echo

[jay741982]

Dig & Thea are gonna team up xD

Can't wait for the debut of Speedy!! Thea is a badass

[SleepDeprived]

"We went into Nanda Parbat and tried to fight the League four on one hundred and you made sure we got out alive, you asshole!"

 

Excuse you, it was six to one hundred! Palmer was just running a little late 'cause his clunky suit took some time to pass through the TSA and Felicity totally almost decapitated a League stooge with her tablet!

[apinknightmare]

Excuse you, it was six to one hundred! Palmer was just running a little late 'cause his clunky suit took some time to pass through the TSA and Felicity totally almost decapitated a League stooge with her tablet!

 

Yes, yes, you are correct. My apologies! 

[nksarmi]

These are the same showrunners that just had Iris forgive Barry and her father for months of lying last night, and had Felicity congratulate Oliver for putting her in harm's way and using her as bait last season against Slade.  Love overlooks a lot on this show.

 

Also, this is the show that has Oliver working with Malcolm.

 

So. Yeah. Felicity will get over this.

Ok Felicity will get over what Oliver did with the fake bioweapon, but if she doesn't get pissed at him for trusting Malcolm while leaving her and Diggle in the cold - I will say that all those things ya'll were bitching about her and Ray might not have been so OOC after all.

[nksarmi]

Yeah, I think the stupid baby mama drama is gonna be the thing next year. I wouldn't put it past MG and co to try something with this wedding, but it would be the most idiotic ticket sold EVER considering the marriage is some League custom that they were coerced into and HE MARRIED A LESBIAN. IMO the only reason it would be an issue is if one of them decided they wanted to make it work, which they won't. Anything else is an issue of paperwork.

Was there even any paperwork?  The only way I expect this marriage to influence season four is if the priestess put some major magic whammy on them and somehow it impacts their free will.  Without magic, the marriage is far less important than the fact that Oliver asked them to trust him, but he didn't trust them enough to let them in on his plan.  And worse, when they did find out - it was through Merlyn.  The very man who caused all of this - as Thea pointed out - and who Felicity and Diggle refused to trust earlier this season in their fight against Brick.

[Carrie Ann]

I totally agree. Yes, what he did was pretty awful and cold, and I was mad at him for it. But I think "I was trying to save thousands of people" is a pretty compelling excuse. 

 

More than just this, I don't think Oliver expects them to forgive him now.

 

I forced myself to rewatch the scene with him and Diggle (physically painful), and he has that moment of confusion when Dig first snaps at him, and then he just accepts the blows. He says, "Tatsu told me to beat Ra's, I would have to be willing to sacrifice everything that was precious to me. Your friendship was one of those things." After Dig lays into him, and after what Malcolm told him in the beginning about being a little too convincing as Al Sah-him, I think he feels like he may have already ruined everything in his life.

 

So when the dust settles, and Felicity forgives him, it won't bother me. Because I think he's going to expect, and feel like he deserves, the opposite. It's not a black-and-white situation, and I'm not going to begrudge any of the characters for staying mad at him or choosing not to.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[TVHappy9463]

That's the thing I don't understand how MG thinks Viewers Will tune in even more for Season 4 with this crap he is writing. I love Olicity but I realized watching the end that I can't see how Felicity DOESN'T put him in the doghouse next week. And I can't understand how He thinks we want to see the season end with Oliver and his team not together I don't get it. I want Olicity together but something has to happen next week to SIGH I just don't know

I think MG and team have an out, Dig and Felicity pulled one over on Oliver with the Roy fake out, so now Oliver did it to them. So she can't really take the high ground for long. Dig on the other hand can be pissed for a very long time. Going after the families is just bad form.  

[apinknightmare]

More than just this, I don't think Oliver expects them to forgive him now.

 

When he told Ra's that he would have nothing and no one to go home to, I think he really did mean that. He knew he was hurting people to try to pull this thing off, and I think that he believes that when he goes home, if he ever makes it, he really won't have anything. That's so Oliver!

[nksarmi]

Perhaps. But here's the question that needs to be answered: what would have happened if Oliver had been brainwashed? Let's say Malcolm gets all of them to Nanda Parbat because of whatever reason. He tells Ra's that Oliver is faking because he's a lying liar who lies and wants to save his own ass. The real virus would have been smashed on the floor and they all would have been dead. 

 

Oliver had no time to tell any of them the backup plan. He had one minute to see how Diggle was doing after he kidnapped Lyla and he possibly was going to hint at the backup plan if it came to that. So, unfortunately, trust had to be broken there. But when they wake up, they should realize that Oliver had no other choice and he saved them. And hopefully they let him explain, because Malcolm started this whole mess when he got Thea to kill Sara. Oliver just happened to put faith in the wrong guy because of his relationship with Thea, he survived getting kicked off a mountain and stabbed, and then got forced into becoming Ra's and he had to choose the best way to save everyone and get rid of Ra's. So....let's just blame Malcolm.

 

I hope there are spoilers about the finale that involve Malcolm getting drop kicked in the face. Preferably from Diggle and Felicity. At the same time. Then Thea can shoot an arrow into his arm.

Bu here in lies the problem - Oliver DID know what was going to happen to him when he agreed to accept Ra's offer because apparently Malcolm had told him  AND he still decided not to trust his TEAM - the love of his life and his brother.  He did not have Malcolm spill the beans once they left NP.  They did not have Malcolm go to Diggle once Lyla was returned and offer him Oliver's apology and explain the plan then.  No.  Oliver asked for his team's trust but showed them none in return.  Both Diggle and Felicity should feel betrayed.

 

Remember "getting in bed with Malcolm Merlyn" is the very thing that made Felicity tell Oliver she didn't want to be a woman he loved to begin with.  Now to be honest, I think that Felicity is going to be happy enough to survive this season and to have Oliver back that she is going to forgive him initially.  But I think trust issues will surface later because of the choices he made here.

[TVHappy9463]

I am looking forward to S4, Felicity is the head of Palmer, is this the set up for Watchtower/Oracle, lots of tech at her disposable, 2. Oliver needs a job, will Felicity give him one, 3. Thea got Roy's old costume, 4. Canary is out there, 5. Dig new direction, plus Malcolm is the Magnificent Bastard of the show he isn't going anywhere, and I bet Nyssa will be back because Raj will get killed and Oliver will appoint her the new head of LOA. 

There is a long history in the superhero world where the hero is vilified and banished by their city's only to be loved and welcomed back. Arrow will be back.  Lets see if MG and team can do it justice. crosses fingers!

[Sakura12]

Have they ever shown the paper work for marriages on TV weddings? I don't ever remember actually seeing that. So I can't really go with it's not a real marriage without paperwork excuse. If they say it's a real marriage, it's a real marriage. 

 

However I can't imagine that if Ra's is defeated that Nyssa or Oliver will want to stay married. Of course with the way they've portrayed Ra's al Ghul I'm surprised no one has gotten rid of his weak ass earlier. He is a dumbass that has no idea what he wants and his so called assassins are a joke of Laurel can take them out. Apparently only a few get the advanced course (Nyssa, Sara, Malcolm, Maseo) while the rest are a bunch of Laurel's, meaning they get a week of training and get to call themselves assassins. 

[apinknightmare]

Bu here in lies the problem - Oliver DID know what was going to happen to him when he agreed to accept Ra's offer because apparently Malcolm had told him  AND he still decided not to trust his TEAM - the love of his life and his brother.  He did not have Malcolm spill the beans once they left NP.  They did not have Malcolm go to Diggle once Lyla was returned and offer him Oliver's apology and explain the plan then.  No.  Oliver asked for his team's trust but showed them none in return.  Both Diggle and Felicity should feel betrayed.

 

Why on earth would he risk telling them what he was doing? Just like they hid their plan for Roy from him because they knew he couldn't take the chance that something could go wrong and Roy could really die, he knew that Diggle and Felicity probably would not let him go in on some long con that may or may not turn out the way he thought it would. They would INSIST on helping him, and the chance of a slip-up was too great to chance them losing their lives over. 

 

If Malcolm gets caught working with him and pays the price, to him that's a chance worth taking. He didn't tell them what was going on in NP once they got there because he was probably a little rattled that Ra's caught him in a trap, and needed to stay on his toes so he simply asked them to trust him. They have no more reason to feel betrayed than Oliver did after they revealed the plan they made to get Roy out. 

 

Oliver trusted Felicity when she said that people were trying to help him, he needed to let them, and trust them when it came to Roy because he couldn't go and just break him out of Iron Heights. Sometimes teamwork is letting everyone in on your plan, and sometimes you call on that trust when things get scary and say, "I need you to trust me," BECAUSE I HAVE A PLAN.

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

Ok Felicity will get over what Oliver did with the fake bioweapon, but if she doesn't get pissed at him for trusting Malcolm while leaving her and Diggle in the cold - I will say that all those things ya'll were bitching about her and Ray might not have been so OOC after all.

We have talked about them getting Oliver and Felicity together in the season finale or if they should be apart, etc.

 

I think they have the perfect reason for keeping them apart until S4. All I need for them now is an honest conversation and an agreement to work on their friendship for now. 

 

I'm not going to think less of Felicity for forgiving him, but they are going to need to have a potentially awkward/painful conversation. 

[chaos is welcome]

That would work if not for the whole riding off into the sunset spoiler.

I am so glad that I read instead of watched, I will be less upset when I finally get around to watching. I can definitely see what oliver is doing. I think others are right (talked about it on the episode thread) and oliver doesn't expect them to forgive him. I think it will be a nice surprise when Felicity actually does, and I won't be angry about that because I still like Oliver Queen and people have been unjustifiably (or maybe justifiably, i dunno) harsh/angry to him ever since he came back. So I will forgive Felicity for forgiving him, which I think she will.

I wonder if oliver had them come to nanda parbat so they would know what was going down/could control the situation more than he could when they were home?

My biggest issue with this is this is the 2nd time they have pulled a sone thing like this. It's getting old/annoying, and again, takes me out of the show because to repeatedly do this to characters I care about is annoying. Just meh on everything.

[nksarmi]

apinknightmare/ - I just disagree.  I think this is classic control freak, don't trust the people who you need most Oliver.  Plus I really hate that it all hinged on Malcolm - the man that got them into this to begin with.  Oliver trusting Malcolm with something this huge makes my skin crawl. 

 

But that said, I really think Malcolm could have told Diggle and Felicity what was going on when they got back.  Those two could have been in on everything, from Lyla's abduction to the attempt to stop the bioweapon this past episode.  Not having faith that they could handle it is bad.  And frankly, Oliver's lack of faith in his team is exactly why they didn't tell him what the plan was with Roy.  They need Oliver would never have enough faith in Roy and their plan to let it play out.  He would have jumped the gun and messed things up. 

 

On the other hand, Felicity and Diggle have shown a huge amount of faith in Oliver that I believe if he had let them in on things from at least the point where they get back from NP - they would have supported him and played their part without issue.  The problem here is not that Felicity and Diggle don't have enough faith in Oliver - the problem is that he shows remarkably little faith in them and that should led them to question rather or not they want to continue to trust him.

[InsertWordHere]

IDK, that's a little like leaving someone in a burning building while they call to you for help and watch you walk away and then you call the fire dept. once you get to safety instead of taking them with you to escape the fire.  Afterwards, you're all "hey, it's not like you *died* or anything and I *did* call for help".  Regardless of the outcome, they thought he left them for dead. Not cool.

Except in this case, opening the door to tell the people in the fire that help was coming would have tripped the explosive device planted in the door and caused not just the real deaths of the whole team and Oliver, but the death of Thea, who was miles away minding her own business when a car, whose driver was startled by the explosion crashed into her and killed her. Soon enough, thanks to the chain reaction caused by the explosion which was caused by Oliver telling the team he was saving them, the whole city goes up in flames and everyone dies.

 

Oliver got the fire department, he got Barry, and that is what you're supposed to do if you're not in a position to help someone yourself, and when your involvement would actively make the situation worse and endanger your own life and that of the people you are trying to save. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[apinknightmare]

apinknightmare/ - I just disagree.  I think this is classic control freak, don't trust the people who you need most Oliver.  Plus I really hate that it all hinged on Malcolm - the man that got them into this to begin with.  Oliver trusting Malcolm with something this huge makes my skin crawl. 

 

But that said, I really think Malcolm could have told Diggle and Felicity what was going on when they got back.  Those two could have been in on everything, from Lyla's abduction to the attempt to stop the bioweapon this past episode.  Not having faith that they could handle it is bad.  And frankly, Oliver's lack of faith in his team is exactly why they didn't tell him what the plan was with Roy.  They need Oliver would never have enough faith in Roy and their plan to let it play out.  He would have jumped the gun and messed things up. 

 

On the other hand, Felicity and Diggle have shown a huge amount of faith in Oliver that I believe if he had let them in on things from at least the point where they get back from NP - they would have supported him and played their part without issue.  The problem here is not that Felicity and Diggle don't have enough faith in Oliver - the problem is that he shows remarkably little faith in them and that should led them to question rather or not they want to continue to trust him.

 

Yeah, we'll agree to disagree.

 

I don't think Oliver's fully aware enough of what he's into and what Ra's is going to throw at him to be able to do more than say, "please trust me," and hope that they do.  

[tarotx]

I personally don't get the want for pissed off chsracters. Felicity being mad at Oliver for hooking up with Melcolm to defeat Ra's already happened.I don't want to see it again.

I rather watch Oliver have to earn their trust back because that is the big deal here. I don't want anger and frustration More than that Diggle punching Oliver scene. That's no fun.

But Felicity and Diggle would have trust issues. Not fear of Oliver being bad and turning on them because that's not something Oliver has done. And it's annoying. But weariness that he never shares himself with them? For sure. He's a loner in a team when there should be no I in team.

As for as Olicity, I would like to see them back to their flirty playful ways but not dating yet. Though at the same time not dating anyone else. No angst. I want them not a couple but actually a couple in all but name. Then one day Felicity will decide that Oliver is the man she knew him to be until this BS S3. They will learn to trust each other.

I want Felicity or Diggle or perhaps Thea to tell Oliver that he needs to learn not only to trust the team he chose but to respect himself not to think it's ok to risk his life more so than the other members of the team. His selfish self-disrespect often puts the team more at risk Than a direct pitting at risk.

I want to see Diggle as lead of Team Arrow next season. That will change the team dynamics and even make it so BC isn't a Green Arrow sidekick. The BC actually originated in a story about a John(Johnny Thunder)though totally not our John. Having Laurel be trained by Diggle, Layla abd Nyssa over the summer and next season is a good idea imo.

Having the team have access to all that Palmer's tech has to offer is also a good idea. I can also see her changing the name to Queen Inc and having Oliver be a figurehead for the company To satisfy shareholders or whatnot. It's belivable in tv world.

I think the show married Oliver and Nyssa to give him a small link to HIVE. Damien Darhk is an arch nemesis of Nyssa's father. Plus I can see her mother having some link to bratva.

[Angel12d]

When I was watching the wedding ceremony, I was thinking 'wow, those words are pretty serious-sounding.'  Then I had the extremely cringe-worthy thought that maybe the EPs were going to use some magical crap and have those words (magically) emotionally bond Nyssa & Oliver together going forward into next season.  However, given the backlash over the forced wedding, I don't see how they could possibly go this route.

 

"There is no vow more sacred, nor covenant more holy than the one between man and woman. With this ceremony, your souls are bound together, forever joined. You will never be free. You will always be held captive by your love for each other."

 

Didn't they cut from Oliver to Felicity when they said about the vow between man and woman? I thought it was pretty obvious that the vows had more meaning where Oliver and Felicity were concerned. Oliver and Nyssa don't love each other. They don't even know each other so there was no weight behind the words. They were just meaningless for O/N. I thought it was meant to be like a heartbreaking sort of contrast that Oliver was marrying the wrong person.

 

This show is as subtle as a brick.

 

And I'm not excusing the wedding, btw. Or saying that it won't cause problems. Just that I really don't see how a few words could bond O/N emotionally.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Angel12d

[tarotx]

It doesn't bond them emotionally but it could bond them as a shared enemy. Oliver is now a nember of the Al Ghul family. A son to the Demon thanks to the union. Especially if Ra's dies. DD would latch on to hating Ra's family.

[AyChihuahua]

"Oliver is now a nember of the Al Ghul family."

 

Nah, Ra's is a sexist (and homophobic) bastard, so he'll make Nyssa take Oliver's last name. 

[Chris24601]

I'm not going to think less of Felicity for forgiving him, but they are going to need to have a potentially awkward/painful conversation.

I dunno if it'll even need to be all that painful/awkward. People have been mentioning informed consent and with Diggle and Laurel and Ray being angry about it and distancing from Oliver I could see a point.

But not two episodes ago it was Felicity who 'betrayed' Oliver's trust and drugged him into unconsciousness without his consent in a desperate ploy to try and save his life even though failure would likely mean that Oliver would be killed right along with the rest of them. And the only thing Ollie said was that he loved her more for trying.

With that as the recent backdrop I just don't see Felicity giving Oliver any flak for doing essentially the same thing for the same reasons, especially when he didn't hold it against her for doing it to him.

Which is I suspect what we're going to see is essentially a split on trust lines. Thea's got no reason to distrust Ollie and every reason to be greatful so she'll be in his camp and probably be his sidekick next season. Felicity will easily forgive him for basically the reasons given above and be their mission control. Diggle and Laurel won't be so forgiving and will probably keep teaming up as they distance themselves from Oliver (though I expect Felicity to continue to provide them with intel and support as a sort of go between fence mender). That'll be the status quo over the summer/3.5 comics until events in the premiere require Ollie and Diggle to bury the hatchet and work against a commin foe and in the process rebuild their trust.

[Angel12d]

If people really expect Oliver to never be forgiven for his actions then I guess the show is finished now. Bye!

[AyChihuahua]

Personally I think people here should cut back on the snark directed at other posters.  There's no need to browbeat or snark at posters who disagree with you.