Sam Winchester: aka Moose

[trxr4kids]

 

 

LOL now I have an idea in my head of Dean challenging himself over the years to steal the most awkward-to-steal food possible. First it was just a crunchy, crinkly, puffy bag of Funyons, but eventually he worked his way up to a big fluffy loaf of white bread and a slippery, bulky jar of peanut butter. :P

 

I read a really funny fanfic that had Dean and Sam bantering about something or other while working a case and Dean was all...you have no idea how hard it is to smuggle babyfood jars in yours pants because apparently they're cold and it's hard to keep them from clinking together.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Paint It Black" episode thread:

He [sam] seemed pretty okay to me in s8.

 

Whereas Sam seemed like a complete mess to me in a "what the hell is going on with Sam?" way in season 8. Between Sam doing a complete 180 and giving up on hunting (the thing in season 7 that grounded him and kept him half sane), at least making sure Dean was at peace (because yup, Sam never looked for Dean in the past to an almost obsessive extent ::eyeroll::) and abandoning Kevin (yup because Sam generally abandons his friends and civilians in general ::another eyeroll::), along with what seemed like a complete 180 in his opinion on monsters in general, and / or was maybe either jealousy issues as maybe "Dean's only allowed to be friends with me" kind of way or some other weird unbalanced jealousy (I have no idea), some overactive rage issues that seemed to come flying out of nowhere that we hadn't seen in two seasons or so, then some weird attitude shifts, where Sam seemed calmer but that instead all culminated in Sam thinking that he needed to be purified because he felt tainted and then eventually having a "So?" (what if I die) attitude... yeah, no... For me that was not a healthy Sam nor one who was comfortable with who he was. That was a Sam who once again tried to have a relationship and failed - this time without a supernatural excuse - snapped and irrationally blamed it on others like Dean, and then figuring out that that didn't make sense either, concluded that something must be wrong with him (Sam), and became somewhat suicidal and decided the best he could do in life was to no longer be living and thereby not cause anyone else any problems.

 

Sam's insecurities with himself were highlighted for me by his having to hear Dean say that Dean wouldn't necessarily always look to Benny or Castiel first, because to me Sam obviously had doubts in himself as a person to think that, and they didn't just come out of nowhere... they'd been being built up towards from before with the whole issue with irrationally not trusting Benny. (Not that that was well done by a long shot. That arc was handled ridiculously in my opinion with Sam acting way out of proportion to how he should have acted had someone bothered to take his character growth beyond season 4 into account, but I digress.)

 

I agree with supposebly (please see comments in the "Paint it Black" episode thread) that Sam is the one who has more relationship difficulties, and for me they have touched on it through Sam's not feeling like he belonged. And for me, part of the creepiness of Hallucifer was that he - who was part of Sam's brain - was telling Sam that same thing (i.e. that Sam belonged with him, Lucifer, not with the "real world".) Just instead of addressing that more with Sam in season 8, they gave him some sort of instacure personality transplant - which not only made no sense to what I saw previously, but turned him into a jerk on top of that - and decided to ignore it except with brief - and sadly interesting - flashes such as Sam thinking the trials were "purifying him" that I wish they had developed more.

 

But instead we still have Dean with a heavy emotional arc in addition to the mytharc and they seem to be exploring these relationship issues through Dean. Again. Which fine, but if Sam learns to love himself through Dean as an example, I'm not going to be happy. I want Sam to go on his own emotional journey... and finish it this time. One of the reasons I liked season 7 so much is because I thought they were exploring these types of emotional issues with Sam, and it was interesting to me with a great "Now you're all alone" set up - which they promptly abandoned within one episode to set Sam up with the awful and damaged Amelia. So instead of Sam evolving and growing and learning to be comfortable with himself and his differentness and learning to have the courage to stand on his own, look for Dean, save Kevin, and keep fighting, instead Sam regressed and just gave up, hid from the real world and his responsibilities, and wallowed in being screwed up together with Amelia. He got worse and more screwed up rather than better, and turned him into little better than a coward. I'm not going to forgive Carver for that one ever.

[supposebly]

Ah, I just pretend season 8 doesn't exist. My blood pressure thanks me.

 

Overall, they don't show Sam developing relationships or deal properly with his actual feelings as they should be. He is vengeful when the plot dictates (season 4) and then completely chill again when the plot dictates that we need to use Gadreel as some sort of Trojan horse (end of season 9). He never reacts to Meg when they encounter her again in season 5.

 

And now he is fine again, because he needs to be fine for plot reasons. I don't mind Dean's arc, although it doesn't make any sense to me but I agree, Dean's emotional arc tends to make more sense, just not now when they actively focus on it. Go figure.

 

 

 

but if Sam learns to love himself through Dean as an example, I'm not going to be happy.

 

Blergh.

Although I don't think there is much chance of that.

 

As I said, the first time, where I can see some possibilities of a friendship independently from Dean would be with Jodi.

Edited April 1, 2015 by supposebly

[SueB]

You know, I thought Sam had reached some level of peace in S8/S9.  With the hunting life and the trials "purifying him".  But now I suspect we have another round to go with Sam.  He's desperate and ready to go Mystery Spot again. So...I have confidence we will get more "Sam" development in the rest of S10 and S11. 

[amensisterfriend]

Here's a fun challenge for those of us who actually like and/or relate to (or even just want to like and relate to!) Sam: which were your favorite 2-3 episodes for Sam's character from each season? Not necessarily your favorite episodes overall, but ones where you really love and relate to Sam's character even if you don't love everything else that's going on) 

[AwesomO4000]

I'll bite. These are more or less in chronological order:
 
Season 1: Bloody Mary (I especially loved the end scene), Scarecrow, Faith.
Season 2: Bloodlust, Houses of the Holy, All Hell Breaks Loose, Pt1 - I loved the insight into Sam there

Season 3: Fresh Blood, A Very Supernatural Christmas, and Mystery Spot (probably my favorite Sam episode)

Season 4: It's A Terrible Life. Not much here I liked for Sam - there was also Afterschool Special, but it was so damn depressing

Season 5: Free To Be You and Me, My Bloody Valentine, Point of No Return - I loved Sam here and how he didn't give up on Dean (Also Changing Channels and I Believe the Children... I loved how he needed to believe Jesse would make the right choice even when he hadn't)

Season 6: Unforgiven, Mannequin 3, the Reckoning, The Man Who Knew Too Much (probably my second favorite Sam episode) (also Clap Your Hands... for soulless Sam)

Season 7: Hello Cruel World, The Mentalists, How to Win Friends..., Time After Time After Time, Plucky Pennywhistle's..., Repo Man, and The Born-Again Identity (it was a good Sam season for me; I could've added even more. Also special mention for Leviathan Sam in Slash Fiction, because describing eating salads as "It's like eating self-righteousness" was just too awesome.)

Season 8: Everybody Hates Hilter, and whichever episode it was where Sam was having delusions - The Great Escapist, I think (this was a terrible Sam season for me; I really disliked Sam in the first half)

Season 9: Mother's Little Helper, Do You Believe in Miracles and whichever earlier episode it was that Sam though something was fundamental wrong with him. He broke my heart there. ( I haven't done a proper re-watch of this season yet)

Season 10: Soul Survivor, Fan Fiction, and probably The Executioner's Song so far

[amensisterfriend]

I love your list, Awesome! I'm rewatching S8 and am finding that it's actually a much better season for Sam's character than I had recalled, but I'm so with you on thinking that S4 was the worst Sam season EVER. 

[catrox14]

I'm the odd bird but I really didn't hate s4 Sam like at all. I far more hated s8 Sam because of the whole not looking for Dean and Kevin thing. I'm still having hard time forgiving him for that.  And of course Soulless Sam can take his sorry ass back to Hell for letting Dean be vamped.

 

I think Sam was so desperate and sad in s4 that I actually felt something for him. Sure then entire time I was all, "Sam WTF are you doing with Ruby you idiot," but I knew it was going to be for no good. It was tragic. Much like Dean's downfall in s9 and s10. I was like Dean WTF ARE YOU DOING...but I felt for his desperation that he couldn't let Sam die...again and he made some horrible choices.  

 

Now s1 and s2 Sam? Couldn't stand the guy.  I couldn't stand his smug attitude or his judgy ways.  And his empathy never rang true for me. And I just couldn't care less that he was maybe this evil thing. I was more keyed in with Dean's story of having to maybe kill his brother.  

 

But s3 Sam, was great IMO for the most part.  He was caring. Sure he ran off the rails in Mystery Spot but he was good brother to Dean throughout season 3 despite their differences.  He was just ....I dunno better for me. Much like I'm loving s10 Sam.  He's backed off the judgment of Dean and is now just trying to help him. 

 

Now having said all that my favorite Sam episodes are when he's not Sam, excluding Soulless Sam, cause fuck that guy. HATE Soulless Sam so much. He wasn't fun or scary like demon!Dean. He wasn't charming. He was just a straight up asshole and I just couldn't stand his face LOL. 

 

I love Lucifer!Sam. I can't help it. And Meg!Sam. 

 

But my favorite regular!Sam episodes are pretty much in s3, s4, and s10. I'll have to think more about specific episodes.

Edited April 5, 2015 by catrox14

[amensisterfriend]

But s3 Sam, was great IMO for the most part. He was caring. Sure he ran off the rails in Mystery Spot but he was good brother to Dean throughout season 3 despite their differences.  

 

On this we totally agree! S3 may be my very favorite season of the series (I know, I know...unpopular much?!), and one major reason why is how much I genuinely liked AND understood both brothers that season. I agree that Sam was genuinely caring---not to mention smart, strong yet vulnerable, a little endearingly 'geeky' and awkward, and even at times funny, which he's not allowed to be all that often. He was still in possession of the usual Sam-ish flaws (uptight, stubborn, etc., etc), but not to the point where they totally overshadowed his strengths, you know?! And when he and Dean screwed up that season, there were almost always REASONS for it. Maybe not ones every viewer agreed with, but still---even when they were at odds, I never doubted that each brother loved the other and was doing what he sincerely felt was best. 

 

Now s1 and s2 Sam? Couldn't stand the guy.I couldn't stand his smug attitude or his judgy ways

 

I like S1 Sam a lot, but I'm actually not overly wild about S2 Sam either. I actually didn't find him smug and---well, yeah, he's kind of judgmental, but so are most characters (and real life people!), so that doesn't bug me all that much :) I just didn't think the 'psychic kids' storyline did him---or anyone---any favors.  

 

I have to confess that I enjoy Soulless Sam. I found him amusing :) 

 

Honestly, I think S7 Sam was surprisingly likable for the most part...I think S2, S1 and S7 were actually the three best seasons for the character, though I've missed some of S10. 

[bethy]

Sam's hair is very cute in season 4. I think it might be my favorite Sam Hair.

[ulkis]

Season 2 does contain, for my money, the best Sam line ever though:

 

Dean: planes crash!

Sam: Well apparently, clowns kill!

[SueB]

Snarky Sam is one of my favorite Sams.

[catrox14]

Thanks to @Binns for reminding me.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, SAM!!

[Binns]

Whoop! And I've just caught up to this thread. For my money, S3 and S7 and now S11 (so far) have been my favorites for Sam. I will never forgive Carver for the character assassination in S8. Still bitter about that. 

[Bessie]

It's somewhat ironic that God seems to have such contempt/indifference toward Sam, given that Sam has always professed faith, hope and awe toward him. I mean he holds Sam solely accountable for what's going on with the darkness.

He was around in seasons 4 and 5 and allowed them to play out in the worst way possible for Sam, while everyone else survived relatively unscathed, with His help. I wonder if this is intentional or not. I kinda hope they address this, not in depth or anything. It's probably just an unintentional commentary on faith. I'm sure Robbie didn't even consider it, but I find it fascinating.

Or, maybe I'm just overthinking it. 

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Bessie said:

It's somewhat ironic that God seems to have such contempt/indifference toward Sam, given that Sam has always professed faith, hope and awe toward him. I mean he holds Sam solely accountable for what's going on with the darkness.

He was around in seasons 4 and 5 and allowed them to play out in the worst way possible for Sam, while everyone else survived relatively unscathed, with His help. I wonder if this is intentional or not. I kinda hope they address this, not in depth or anything. It's probably just an unintentional commentary on faith. I'm sure Robbie didn't even consider it, but I find it fascinating.

Or, maybe I'm just overthinking it. 

 

Maybe we aren't supposed to agree with God necessarily on that point. If Dean still had the Mark of Cain, God wouldn't have to face the mess his family's disaster because Amara is locked away still.  It's much easier for God to be annoyed with Sam for trying to save his brother than be reminded that he locked away his sister when perhaps he could have done something more or different.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Bessie said:

Or, maybe I'm just overthinking it. 

If you are then I am as well, because I had similar questions/comments over on the "Don't Call Me Surely" thread. I even made the observation that if Chuck has been God the entire time, then not only did Chuck allow it to play out in the worst possible way for Sam as you mention, looked at one way, he even gave Sam slight encouragement with his "That's the way the story seems to be headed" comment... and considering he was God and writing the story, and probably knew where it was likely headed, he could've said a whole lot more to question Sam and/or fan Sam's doubt rather than encourage Sam's line of thought. But I guess He would rather encourage Sam towards what would lead to Michael/Lucifer showdown. In my opinion anyway.

Also to me, just the fact that things were manipulated in terms of getting John and Mary together so that Dean could be Michael's chosen vessel while Sam was supposed to be Lucifer's... I think Sam would be being awfully nice - or thinking he deserved it - if he didn't wonder if Chuck had something against him or just used him as a pawn in his plans.

And also yup: In terms of Amara being released, there was no mention of Dean taking on the mark being a factor (even if it was small, it was still a factor), or Castiel's help, or Rowena's actually doing the spell. Nope, SPN-verse God, Chuck, says it's on Sam. (No mention of the sacrifice Sam made stopping the first one.)

I don't know if they will address Sam's feelings on the matter or not. I have the odd suspicion that the main conversation is going to be between Chuck and Dean.

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe we aren't supposed to agree with God necessarily on that point. If Dean still had the Mark of Cain, God wouldn't have to face the mess his family's disaster because Amara is locked away still.  It's much easier for God to be annoyed with Sam for trying to save his brother than be reminded that he locked away his sister when perhaps he could have done something more or different.

This could be true. Chuck was quite a bit defensive when Metatron brought up Amara, so he was deflecting. But then again even Castiel had a part to play in the first apocalypse due to some bad choices, and narratively that ended up being blamed almost entirely on Sam as well (Cas never even acknowledged his own bad choices or was called out on them - I don't think Sam even found out about Cas' betrayal of Anna, even though that ended up affecting Sam directly and neither Sam nor Dean found out about letting Sam out of the panic room.) So, I don't know what the general narrative is going to be saying concerning Sam and releasing Amara at this point. At present though it seems to be pointing to Sam. And if Chuck sacrifices to stop it without acknowledging his own role, I think it will still be pointing to Sam. It may also depend on if it is brought up later on down the road as being Sam's fault like the first apocalypse was (even as late as season 9).

[SueB]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

If you are then I am as well, because I had similar questions/comments over on the "Don't Call Me Surely" thread. I even made the observation that if Chuck has been God the entire time, then not only did Chuck allow it to play out in the worst possible way for Sam as you mention, looked at one way, he even gave Sam slight encouragement with his "That's the way the story seems to be headed" comment... and considering he was God and writing the story, and probably knew where it was likely headed, he could've said a whole lot more to question Sam and/or fan Sam's doubt rather than encourage Sam's line of thought. But I guess He would rather encourage Sam towards what would lead to Michael/Lucifer showdown. In my opinion anyway.

Also to me, just the fact that things were manipulated in terms of getting John and Mary together so that Dean could be Michael's chosen vessel while Sam was supposed to be Lucifer's... I think Sam would be being awfully nice - or thinking he deserved it - if he didn't wonder if Chuck had something against him or just used him as a pawn in his plans.

And also yup: In terms of Amara being released, there was no mention of Dean taking on the mark being a factor (even if it was small, it was still a factor), or Castiel's help, or Rowena's actually doing the spell. Nope, SPN-verse God, Chuck, says it's on Sam. (No mention of the sacrifice Sam made stopping the first one.)

I don't know if they will address Sam's feelings on the matter or not. I have the odd suspicion that the main conversation is going to be between Chuck and Dean.

This could be true. Chuck was quite a bit defensive when Metatron brought up Amara, so he was deflecting. But then again even Castiel had a part to play in the first apocalypse due to some bad choices, and narratively that ended up being blamed almost entirely on Sam as well (Cas never even acknowledged his own bad choices or was called out on them - I don't think Sam even found out about Cas' betrayal of Anna, even though that ended up affecting Sam directly and neither Sam nor Dean found out about letting Sam out of the panic room.) So, I don't know what the general narrative is going to be saying concerning Sam and releasing Amara at this point. At present though it seems to be pointing to Sam. And if Chuck sacrifices to stop it without acknowledging his own role, I think it will still be pointing to Sam. It may also depend on if it is brought up later on down the road as being Sam's fault like the first apocalypse was (even as late as season 9).

I didn't like that he singled out Sam either.  OTOH, God was acting pretty petulant at that moment and expecting it all to go to nothingness, so I'm not giving him too many 'sound judgement' points in that moment. 

But I do want to explore his feelings about the boys because I think "I love those guys" was sincere. They may have both disappointed him (Sam drinking the Demon Blood, Dean selling his soul, Dean taking on the Mark without understanding the consequences) but he still loves them, frankly more than most or he wouldn't have intervened.

First, Dean probably pissed him off by selling his soul.  I think the SPN universe has shown those to be special since John sold his.  Now, God may have appreciated that Dean didn't realize what a "big move' that was. Dean certainly got it AFTER the fact. So that may temper his irritation on that one.  Not sure.

Second, Sam WAS told directly by Chuck/God, that Sam had to KNOW that drinking demon blood was wrong.  Now of course this is ALL RETCON in the series because they weren't planning S11 at that time. Still, of all the things we've heard from Chuck, that's probably the only moralizing he's done until EP20 (where he called out people killing in his name as really pissing him off... good point, Chuck).  But, back to the point, while what both Dean and Sam did was likely inherently 'wrong' in Chuck/God's mind - he made of point out of telling Sam this was the case.  Sam, of course, doesn't know this was God and I expect that if he did, even in his hyped up state, Sam would have stopped cold turkey.  Still, Chuck may feel like Sam was adequately warned and choose to go forward anyway. As for telling him "that appears to be the way the story is heading", this is from a character who seems to be pro-'write your own path'.  That may actually have been baiting Sam.  As in, you are being LED down this path, are you really going to follow it?  But Sam was too far gone, IMO, to see that angle. Plus Team Free Will had not yet been officially established.  So the whole "screw destiny in the face" ethos was not firmly in place.

Third, Dean takes on the Mark. God probably figured Dean turning into a demon was the natural consequences of that act and was not too bothered by it.  He seems to be okay with the whole crime & punishment thing.  Now Dean had no clue that it had any repercussions for anyone but himself ... BUT Dean had also been around supernatural things for a long time and unearned power always comes with a downside.  He was messing with stuff to assuage his guilt over Kevin.  These are not good motivations.  I wouldn't be surprised, considering the likely import of the Mark on the resolution of the Amara crisis, if we hear a rebuke out of God, directly to Dean, regarding taking on the Mark in the first place.  I think God knows Dean was prepared to pay the consequences, but as Dean himself knows... ultimately Dean kicked over the bees nest that was Cain.  So, I suspect God is going to be okay with Dean still having a consequence for that act.

Fourth, Sam frees Dean of the Mark, even if he knows he's messing with bad juju and Dean asked him not to.  He may have heard the bit about the Darkness at the 11th hour, but he was also told multiple times, he's messing with God-class magic.  Again, there's that element of knowledge.  Sam rationalized that he didn't actually know the consequences, and I kinda bought it.  But there's something to be said for "don't mess around with things you don't understand.'  There's a little bit of self-confidence in Sam's choice that may have come across as hubris to God.  And that would probably piss him off.  

Finally, there's the impact of the last act and where we are in the story.  Dean being a demon, on THIS planet only, is bad but it doesn't destroy ALL of God's creations.  Amara is planning on taking it all down.  So when God weighs the two choices - Dean going full darkside and killing humans versus Amara killing ALL of creation and making God's entire existence kinda pointless -- well, I can see a grudge there. God would be pissed that Dean was killing people but as he said "the world would keep spinning".  Releasing Amara stops the world spinning.  

I think the show did a good job of showing that Dean still feels equally complicit in what happened but from God's rarefied POV, I can see him feeling like that last step was the most irritating to Him personally. 

Bottom line: I hope we hear how God holds Dean accountable for setting up the situation.  IF he does that, then having him call out ONLY Sam in EP20 won't bother me. 

[Aeryn13]

It was basically a throwaway line after Metratron blamed them both. Last thing I would want is God blaming Dean directly now with the "if you hadn`t, then ..." and saying nothing to Sam. That`s the kind of whitewashing bullshit that ensured that Season 5 was never a proper redemption for Sam in my eyes. He either calls them both out to their faces or none. 

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

Second, Sam WAS told directly by Chuck/God, that Sam had to KNOW that drinking demon blood was wrong... [snip]... But, back to the point, while what both Dean and Sam did was likely inherently 'wrong' in Chuck/God's mind - he made of point out of telling Sam this was the case.  Sam, of course, doesn't know this was God and I expect that if he did, even in his hyped up state, Sam would have stopped cold turkey.  Still, Chuck may feel like Sam was adequately warned and choose to go forward anyway. As for telling him "that appears to be the way the story is heading", this is from a character who seems to be pro-'write your own path'.  That may actually have been baiting Sam.  As in, you are being LED down this path, are you really going to follow it?  But Sam was too far gone, IMO, to see that angle. Plus Team Free Will had not yet been officially established.  So the whole "screw destiny in the face" ethos was not firmly in place.

Sam was also in the mindset that Azazel had set up his life to that point. Things were very much "destiny" back then, so telling Sam that perhaps it was supposed to fall on his shoulders - especially after even though Sam had agreed that the blood drinking was wrong, he'd still talked himself into thinking he didn't have much of a choice and that he could turn it into something "good" - was very unlikely to be an effective argument... pretty much the opposite, it was much more likely to convince Sam he was doing the right thing, in my opinion. I thought the wording was very much encouraging - I thought the same when it was just Chuck, the prophet (I'm consistent ; ) ) so it seems even more so now - but that's just my opinion.

Quote

Finally, there's the impact of the last act and where we are in the story.  Dean being a demon, on THIS planet only, is bad but it doesn't destroy ALL of God's creations.  Amara is planning on taking it all down.  So when God weighs the two choices - Dean going full darkside and killing humans versus Amara killing ALL of creation and making God's entire existence kinda pointless -- well, I can see a grudge there. God would be pissed that Dean was killing people but as he said "the world would keep spinning".  Releasing Amara stops the world spinning.

This is why it annoys me that the show narrative generally puts Sam in that "last act" position. It's predictable enough that I knew it was going to happen way before it did this time*. And it generally leads to Sam getting most of the blame and being put into the position of having to make up for it.

* I remember fondly you guys' assurances at the time that certainly the writers wouldn't go there again and have Sam do something stupid, and I appreciated those assurances... even as I knew that the writers certainly would go there again, because they couldn't help themselves. The best way ever to alleviate Dean's mistakes is to have Sam (or Castiel) make an even worse one. (And also vica versa.) *sigh*

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

It was basically a throwaway line after Metratron blamed them both.

I disagree. A throwaway line for me would more have been an agreement of what Metatron said. Since what Chuck said was more of a different opinion from what Metatron said - pretty much an "enh, Dean turned into a demon from the mark, but that wasn't of much consequence, it was really Sam's interference that started all the problems" - to me that's not really a "throwaway" but showing a different opinion from what Metatron said. And considering it backed up all of the "You shouldn't do this, Sam"s and "Bad things are going to happen, Sam"s we had before it happened, it seems to me more like a reinforcement of the narrative opinion than a throwaway line.

And as I said above, it's going to depend on what comes afterwards - as we saw with the first apocalypse - on what that actually means for me. Especially if Sam has little part in the resolution of the problem.

Edited May 10, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[MysteryGuest]

I think it comes down to whether or not the boys were fated to live the lives they've led.  They were certainly told often enough that nothing they could do would change the outcome of what was to happen.  It was destiny, which to my mind means that God intended for it to play out that way.  Now the angels could have been bullshitting them, since they have proven to be less than trustworthy, but I personally don't want to listen to God chastise them on anything at this point.  

If he didn't command that Dean be freed from Hell so that he could take his rightful place as Michael's meat suit, then he should have intervened then to stop it.  He's basically allowed Sam and Dean to be the pawns between heaven and hell, which isn't something that any human should have to withstand.  Yes, they've made mistakes, but they've also been forced to make decisions for mankind that they should never have been asked to make.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think it comes down to whether or not the boys were fated to live the lives they've led.  They were certainly told often enough that nothing they could do would change the outcome of what was to happen.  It was destiny, which to my mind means that God intended for it to play out that way.  Now the angels could have been bullshitting them, since they have proven to be less than trustworthy, but I personally don't want to listen to God chastise them on anything at this point.  

If he didn't command that Dean be freed from Hell so that he could take his rightful place as Michael's meat suit, then he should have intervened then to stop it.  He's basically allowed Sam and Dean to be the pawns between heaven and hell, which isn't something that any human should have to withstand.  Yes, they've made mistakes, but they've also been forced to make decisions for mankind that they should never have been asked to make.

IDK... in the Old Testament 'lore' that the writers draw upon, there's the Book of Job.  God had no problem letting that poor guy get completely abused just to prove a bet with Satan.  These writers seem to like the whole "testing" aspect of God.  And now that we know Chuck was God, then the whole thing WAS a test and Sam and Dean passed.  So... I tend to think the Angels were the ones calling the shots and God let them do it to see if his humans could ride a bike without the training wheels.   And they did. Which, yay Team Free Will.  And, oh BTW, God DID kinda cheat a bit with the whole beaming them on a plane thing and bringing Cas back.  So... God probably thinks he was more than fair.  As for Sam and Dean... this would be the part where it sucks to be them.  But the decisions AFTER the Apocalypse seem to be different. Let's review the bidding:

- Cas goes darkside to defeat Raphael - Well, Cas is an honorary Winchester so... IDK... cleaning up his mess is not something Sam and Dean would ever ignore.  They certainly aren't responsible IMO for ANY choices Cas made in S6.

- S7 - more cleaning up Cas' mistake with the Leviathans.  Still pretty much not on Sam and Dean.

- S8 - choosing to close the Gates of Hell ... I STILL contend that was a choice THEY made and every bad thing that came out of it is somewhat because THEY wanted to pull a big lever. To wit:
- Abaddon on the loose.  They had her cut-up and buried.  They dug her up and Young Frankensteined her back together..
- Sam's insides turning into mush. That's cause they took on the trials.
- The Angels' falling.  That's pretty much on Metatron w/ a side of Cas... HOWEVER... by starting down the trials, they DID kick Metatron out of his self-imposed exile. So there's a hint of culpability here.
- Putting Gadreel into Sam.  Hey, Dean Winchester... that's 100% on you.
- Kevin dying. Metatron may have ordered it but again, Dean should have told Kevin what was going on once he realized there was an immediate threat. That's on Dean.
- Taking on the Mark, 'waking up Cain', turning into a demon. Yeah, it's pretty much Dean again.
- Removing the Mark, that's on Sam and Cas.
BUT... look at the chain of causality.  It ALL started because they wanted to close the Gates of Hell. To get back at all those demons who hurt their family and the rest of the world.  They CHOSE to stay active and involved in the big issues.  So, IMO, the events of S8 onward are pretty much at the feet of Sam and Dean.  And honestly, Dean's been steering the boat more than Sam on this one.

Just my opinion... YMMV.

 

[Binns]

I can't remember which ep it was in but Jared said at jibcon that he didn't like the line about the planets being round- he said Sam is smart and would have known the answer to that! 

[MysteryGuest]

I think we all agreed at the time that Sam would not have asked that question.  I'm sure they pick their battles when arguing about lines of dialogue.  In the whole scheme of things, that one was pretty harmless, I suppose.  

[bethy]

That line was so dumb. Who would even ask if planets are round? I actually wondered if there's some theory out there that planets aren't round and that the question showed that Sam is really smart because he was aware of it. Otherwise it was completely nonsensical. But then. That was true of a fair amount of the last episode, so.

[7kstar]

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I thought the question was "Why create a round planet?"  If God could create a planet in any shape why round?  That's all I remember so it wasn't a big deal to me.  I rather thought Sam was on a sugar high, come face to face with the creator and wanting to ask all those crazy questions you had as a kid.  You know how people get goofy when they come face to face with someone they really admire.  Just my two cents.  :)

[bethy]

Oh! If that's what he said, I'd be with you. That's not how I remember it, but I've missed things before!

[MysteryGuest]

The dialogue went like this..."There are so many things I want to ask him, like the planets, why are they round, or ears, I always thought they were strange..."  I get that he was caught up in the "wow, it's really God" moment, but considering the life Sam and Dean have led, I wouldn't think those would be his first questions, if or when he ever came face to face with God.  I know that Sam has always been shown to have more faith than Dean, but still...SPN's God has allowed some serious shit to happen in the last decade, not just to the Winchesters, but to all of humanity.  I would think Sam's reaction would have been pretty similar to Dean's.

I know it was intended as a fairly light moment, so it's really not that big a deal, but it just sounded odd coming out of Sam's mouth.

[AwesomO4000]

I agree, MysteryGuest, especially considering things Sam's said in the past. He was already fairly "God doesn't care" in season 5 ("99 Problems"), and things only got worse for him after that, so I would have expected Sam to get more cynical rather than less. Also after his finding out his visions were Lucifer after he prayed this season, I would've thought Sam would've been more "Why did you show up now?" rather than "what's the deal with ears?" (Which is sort of obvious, Sam: they're shaped to funnel sound. You don't need God to answer that question.)

And asked it with more of a "Where the %$#^ have you been all the other times we asked for help?" tone to it. Or maybe "why the hell was I fated to be Lucifer's vessel? Was that your idea?" might've also been an understandable question. I mean I get that Sam was grateful for finally getting the help, but even though his "I thought maybe my prayers got lost in the spam folder" was somewhat heartbreaking, it was also slightly sad (in a pathetic way) that Sam hadn't been before... As at the end of season 5 when Sam was all "God doesn't care? Well, we'll do this. We'll get it done." I don't know. It kind of makes Sam seem like he's glad to let someone else solve the problem he (Sam) helped cause and just sit back and let Chod do the work when that's not really what he's done before. I don't think I like the implication.

And I entirely agree that Sam's attitude should've been more like a tempered version of Dean's than what we got.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, 7kstar said:

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I thought the question was "Why create a round planet?"  If God could create a planet in any shape why round?  That's all I remember so it wasn't a big deal to me.  I rather thought Sam was on a sugar high, come face to face with the creator and wanting to ask all those crazy questions you had as a kid.  You know how people get goofy when they come face to face with someone they really admire.  Just my two cents.  :)

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but Sam said the following.

Quote

There's so many things I want to ask him, uh, like, uh, t-the planets, you know? Why are they round?

I don't know why Buck-Leming are such assholes to the boys in their writing. I mean did they seriously think the audience and the actors would not side-eye that kind of stupidity? JFC even Dean who dropped out of high school would have learned this in 8th grade Earth Science FFS. 

I mean really if they wanted to get into the mysteries of God's creations they should have gone with "Why the platypus!?". THAT would have been funny. Because haven't we all pondered "Why the platypus?" at one time or another ( yes we KNOW why the platypus) but you see my point. It would have offended NO ONE except  hardcore platystans and we all would have said "YES, That's a great question, Sam" and Dean could have given a funny face and said' "Righht??"

And we go on with life. No one is wondering why Sam's brain took a powder on basic earth science.

[7kstar]

Reminds me of a Collin Raye Song...That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  I'm twisting the words, oh well, Sam was in a moment excitement and just couldn't express himself well, because he lost all sense of reason and Dean just rolls his eyes and goes on, because he can't help loving his fan loving geek brother.  Since the writers can't be bothered to make things connect from season to season, it's the best I can do.  :)

[DittyDotDot]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but Sam said the following.

Quote

There's so many things I want to ask him, uh, like, uh, t-the planets, you know? Why are they round?

I don't know why Buck-Leming are such assholes to the boys in their writing. I mean did they seriously think the audience and the actors would not side-eye that kind of stupidity? JFC even Dean who dropped out of high school would have learned this in 8th grade Earth Science FFS. 

I mean really if they wanted to get into the mysteries of God's creations they should have gone with "Why the platypus!?". THAT would have been funny. Because haven't we all pondered "Why the platypus?" at one time or another ( yes we KNOW why the platypus) but you see my point. It would have offended NO ONE except  hardcore platystans and we all would have said "YES, That's a great question, Sam" and Dean could have given a funny face and said' "Righht??"

And we go on with life. No one is wondering why Sam's brain took a powder on basic earth science.

And yet, I still think Sam was just wanting to know why God made certain design decisions, not that he didn't understand the scientific reason for why the planets are round. It doesn't matter what Sam asked--Why platypus? would've just had people asking how it was Sam didn't know about evolution--there is a scientific answer to almost anything, but this wasn't a scientific question he was asking, IMO.

IMO, the Horrible Duo think of themselves as philosophers to a certain degree. I'm not sure I agree, but what do I know anyway.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the Spoiler thread:

2 hours ago, 7kstar said:

...Dean usually only allows a few close to him so a lost is dramatic and Sam has the experience of college and making a group of friends.  Not sure I can express this part well, but if Sam was living the normal apple pie life, he would naturally have many friends.  His college days helped him to be less isolated.

Dean, however, has a trust issue and tends to let a few into his inner circle.  He doesn't quickly see someone as a close relationship.  Part of that is the fact that he is more practical about their life and how it will end.  Sam is more hopeful and I think that is the ingredient which makes work well together.  It allows them to cover more options when they do team together.

I think this - maybe - might've been more true if Sam didn't have the life he did - in other words, no demons or other supernatural influence - but after season 5, I think the college life making him more well-adjusted ship pretty much sailed for Sam. Once Sam found out hey guess what? Your best friend in college who introduced you to Jessica and who you tried to help through a crisis? Yeah, he was really a demon who actually killed your girlfriend. I think that pretty much shook any kind of trust or confidence he might've had in his abilities to develop "normal" relationships or even want them.

But then again, even before that, my interpretation of the character has been maybe more like catrox's in that I thought that Sam generally felt awkward about himself, and even though he tried to make friends, deep down he felt like he didn't quite belong or that he was "different," and maybe he almost tried too hard to compensate as we saw in "Afterschool Special."** To me, Sam seemed unusually driven to a goal and less socially confident - in the pilot, Jessica had to talk him into going to the party and into socializing. Sam can "pretend" well, but in reality he's more awkward than that. His "apple pie life" with Amelia would seem to also go towards this. Except for his relationship with Amelia - which wasn't even the healthiest - we didn't see Sam form any friendships at all in that year on his own. Sam's only really close friendship we've seen now where they really seem to have a connection - because as you say, Dean and Castiel are the ones who have the really close emotional connection - was with his "imaginary" friend from his childhood.

I do agree about Sam being more hopeful - though that still surprises me sometimes considering all that he has been through and how many times he's been disappointed - though even he has his moments... and I think that's partially where his rage comes in. When he finally realizes all his hope is sometimes for nothing, I think Sam - somewhat understandable - just goes "#$%@ this! I'm  pissed off!"

** In that episode, we saw Sam relate to and try to make friends with the marginalized kid who he was confident that he could help, taking a shortcut to a connection. He bypasses all the having to fit in parts. It is nice of Sam to help the bullied kid, but also "safe" in that Sam is pretty confident that he'll be accepted by this kid. Sam can take care of himself, so he doesn't have to worry much about being bullied himself, but he also doesn't have to worry as much about appearing "normal" around the bullied kid. It's a good coping strategy, but not necessarily showing that he felt confident socially or felt like he belonged or was particularly trusting, in my opinion anyway.

Edited May 22, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[Bella-UK]

On IMDb I started the Sam Squad and have run it for the last three years. We had a different title every time the thread reached six hundred posts. My latest title was Always Keep fighting Moose. You are welcome to use this if you like it.

[DittyDotDot]

So there's been some discussion in the Dean thread about changing the thread title and I offered to start a poll of all the options. Someone suggested to me that we might want to change the Sam thread title too. If everyone throws out suggestions, I'll make a poll. We'll do it like the Dean thread, 24 hours for suggestions.

What say you all? 

[Demented Daisy]

I'm cool with the title just as it is.  :-)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

38 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

I'm cool with the title just as it is.  :-)

Me too.  

[catrox14]

Like I said in the Dean thread, I don't care if we change the thread title or  it but Moose and Squirrel are still Crowley defined, which I don't mind but is a concern for some commenters. I'm not cool with titles that are unnecessarily factional.

My thoughts :

Sam Winchester: An Enigma Shrouded in a Mystery Wrapped in Denim.

Sam Winchester: Never Give Up,  Never Surrender

[SueB]

I'm meh on it.  But will be happy to vote if there is a poll because you are all clever people. 

[Bessie]

I prefer moose, too. Plus, having Sam called "moose" while Dean is called "the righteous man" or something along those lines amuses me. 

But I will say this. It could bring back unpleasant memories of TWoP for some posters. That site was unfriendly to Sam. It will bum me out if this site begins following that path. 

[ahrtee]

If it's causing such angst, we don't *have* to have a cutesy name for all threads--there are quite a few with just descriptive titles.  Why not just "Sam Talk" and "Dean Talk" or something similar?

Should I post this in the Dean thread, too?

Edited February 6, 2017 by ahrtee

[Demented Daisy]

Personally, those threads have had those titles since the beginning.  I don't understand why either has to change now.

I mean, it's just a title.  It's not like anyone is making some grand commentary on the characters.  Is the current title going to change how anyone feels about the character?

[catrox14]

I like the thread titles because for me, I think it is more welcoming and sets a more fun tone for threads even though they are going to have serious conversation too. I like to see the creativity that people come up with for the thread titles. But that's just me.

[ahrtee]

I have no problem with the thread titles as is, either.  But apparently others do, so I also have no problem changing them.  It just seems particularly complicated to get one that everyone agrees with, so why not go simple?  

[bearcatfan]

I don't have a problem with either of the thread titles either. The fact that Crowley gave them those names obviously doesn't bother the actors as they even had a moose and a squirrel on the EW cover. If we do change them, however, I have liked the suggestions made by Catrox14.

1 hour ago, Bessie said:

But I will say this. It could bring back unpleasant memories of TWoP for some posters. That site was unfriendly to Sam. It will bum me out if this site begins following that path. 

I have that fear as well. I wasn't on the TWoP site for this show as I didn't discover it until a little over a year ago, but I do know that the imdb board seemed to be very unfriendly to Sam. The respect shown on this site to not only the characters, but especially the actors, is why I'm here. I like both brothers, although I prefer Sam (it's the hair; I've always had a thing for men with longer hair). Even when people disagree, they are respectful.

[Diane]

I am fine with the titles as they are, but I will vote if you  guys really want to change them.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The fact that Crowley gave them those names obviously doesn't bother the actors as they even had a moose and a squirrel on the EW cover. 

"Squirrel" was a suggestion for a Dean-thread title so it could be a partner-threads. I`d find that cute. Just currently it is more "Sam" and "the guy who is not Sam" which I find a bit sad, prefering the "other guy" for his own identity.     

Edited February 6, 2017 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

46 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I have no problem with the thread titles as is, either.  But apparently others do, so I also have no problem changing them.  It just seems particularly complicated to get one that everyone agrees with, so why not go simple?  

Not everyone is going to agree on anything, that's why I suggested a poll and we go by majority rule on it. I will add the simple titles to the list of things to vote on too. So far, the list is:

• Moose (Leave it as is)
• Always Keep fighting Moose
• Sam Winchester: An Enigma Shrouded in a Mystery Wrapped in Denim.
• Sam Winchester: Never Give Up,  Never Surrender
• Sam Winchester

Anyone else want to throw an idea into the mix...you have til tomorrow morning to think about it.

[ahrtee]

My only concern is that, as we've seen way too much lately, "majority rule" vote doesn't necessarily end anger or bitterness.  But I don't know  how much is invested in this.  It seemed to me that it was the Dean thread that wanted their name changed, more than the Sam one.  My suggestion was to keep the two threads connected with similar titles that wouldn't be inflammatory to anyone.  I'm ok either way.

How about starting a "bi-bro" thread called:  "The Winchester Brothers:  Denim-Wrapped Nightmares"?  Or calling the bro threads: Thing One and Thing Two (a la Jensen's twin announcement?)

I'll stop now.  Sorry. :)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

How about starting a "bi-bro" thread called:  "The Winchester Brothers:  Denim-Wrapped Nightmares"?  

Shouldn't that be Flannel-Wrapped Nightmares?  ;)