Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[Airmid]

15 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think they actually did explore the idea that Dean had Mary on a pedestal. Judging by how often Mary and Sam brought up the idea for a while there, I think that they both were worried that he did or assumed that that was the case -- which was pretty reasonable, IMO, because Dean had always been pretty protective of Mary's memory. Right in the pilot, there was that moment when Dean pushed Sam up against the bridge railing and was pretty pissed off at him because Sam had referred to Mary too flippantly.

But then, the show revealed that Dean didn't really have a mythos around Mary built up, and that he was so protective of the time before she died for other reasons. Or, that's what I got from his line to her about not having a childhood, anyway. YMMV.

What his reasons for being so protective of "Then" (as the show calls it) actually *are,* though, I'm not 100% sure. I think probably, that time (before Mary died) represents his state of grace, and his innocence, and it's important to him to remember that he was capable of that or once had that. But I dunno. A point that maybe goes against that theory, though, is that in the season opener, Dean recited his parents' "how we met" story like it was a catechism (despite not even having been a twinkle in his mother's eye then). That recitation was disturbing to me at the time, and I'm still not sure what it was about.

If that's the case then honestly, how they have her playing out right now makes it so much worse.

Before Dean did have some idea of who his mother was and learned that while she was flawed and made bad choices he got to remember her from going to the past. It did probably knock her down a bit from pure sainthood status but at the same time knew she loved her family including both her sons.

Now he gets a woman who is right back into the same family rut of lying and betraying. She almost got Cas killed horrifically.  She lied to them and put them in danger and then turned around claiming that she was doing it to make the world a safer place. No. If the world is a safer place you don't need to lie, steal and cheat to get it there usually. Expectations to this rule always but you aren't treating your allies that way let alone your family.

So in some ways I can see him being protective of what he knew her as, maybe even to a point of divorcing Mary now from Mary then. Not to mention he spent a good portion of his childhood with John more than likely slowly turning Mary from a person to something more of a mythological figure. I might even say that Dean may have idolized certain aspects of her growing up. And to have that come all crashing down not because she's real and existing with them but because she may not be that nice of a person - well yeah, I can see holding onto those memories when the present offers nothing but the same old.

I think the icing is that she doesn't even know them and with her behavior Dean is never going to be able to open up to her. That's pretty bad, given that he should have a person who unconditionally loves him (mind you not his choices) and have support for once. Sam too.

On ‎3‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 0:18 PM, Myrelle said:

I really don't care why he didn't apologize, but if he would do it again regardless of his reasoning, than an apology would be pointless, IMO.  And maybe that's why Sam and John and Mary rarely use/used the words "I'm sorry" when they've offered apologies-because they're not/weren't really and truly sorry and whatever they'd done, they'd just do again. And maybe that was how Dean came up with the idea that you can apologize and not really mean it and that people just need/want to hear words to that effect for everything to be A OK.

This makes me unutterably sad.

Can't this boy have someone in his family that screws up but isn't a lying liar with a side of lying betrayal?

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, Airmid said:

Can't this boy have someone in his family that screws up but isn't a lying liar with a side of lying betrayal?

The only one that could be considered family and never lied to him was Bobby. Please correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly but  I'm glad that he had him as a surrogate father.

[Airmid]

Promise I'm not normally this super fast.

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

The only one that could be considered family and never lied to him was Bobby. Please correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly but  I'm glad that he had him as a surrogate father.

Didn't tell Dean that Sam was back from hell until Dean found out himself. While not lying per say that's terrible to do to someone who thinks their loved one is being eternally tortured.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Airmid said:

Promise I'm not normally this super fast.

Didn't tell Dean that Sam was back from hell until Dean found out himself. While not lying per say that's terrible to do to someone who thinks their loved one is being eternally tortured.

Good point. Although we could look at it as he felt that it was Sam's place to tell Dean that he was back and he also didn't want to ruin Dean's normal life with Lisa which he felt was deserved. Lies still but in this case Bobby didn't know that Sam was soulless and he more than likely assumed that he would go to Dean and let him know that he was out of the cage. I see this as a lie of omission while his family has purposely lied to him.

Edited March 13, 2017 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

On 3/9/2017 at 10:18 AM, SueB said:

At the risk of opening a can of worms:  while listening to The Prisoner today, I realized something about Dean and apologies.  First, I'm faking Jensen at his word when he said the Mark made him more and more unfiltered.  So, while he made some statements that were outrageous while under the Mark's influence, it's in the direction of his feelings.  Specifically, when they are burning Charlie's body, Sam starts to apologize and Dean cuts him off.  He said Sam didn't get to apologize because he got Charlie killed.  Which would imply that apologizing is not the right thing to do (sometimes) when you have done something super bad.  I'm guessing because it's 'seeking forgiveness' and in that case, Dean didn't feel Sam should ask for forgiveness.  

IF this is part of Dean's perspective, is this why he never apologized for Gadreel?  Dean felt He (Dean) didn't deserve forgiveness so he shouldn't ask for it.

 

I dont agree with Dean, but it's something to consider.  

I've always thought Dean's position on apologizing was that he didn't see the point of it if you don't intend to change your behavior.

Like he's NEVER not going to Save Sam. And letting Gadreel in was all about Save Sammy. It wasn't because Dean can't live without Sam. It's that Dean can't live with Sam Dead. Those are very different things. It's been drilled into Dean since childhood and it's his Prime Directive to make sure Sam is ALIVE even if he is dead, considering Dean traded his soul for Sam's.   So on that point, no IMO Dean will never apologize. He could have apologized for the continued deception but IMO he was so far down the rabbit hole that he didn't know how to come back from his profound guilt for Kevin's death.

ETA: I think Benny is the only person who didn't flat out lie to Dean.

[Airmid]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Good point. Although we could look at it as he felt that it was Sam's place to tell Dean that he was back and he also didn't want to ruin Dean's normal life with Lisa which he felt was deserved. Lies still but in this case Bobby didn't know that Sam was soulless and he more than likely assumed that he would go to Dean and let him know that he was out of the cage. I see this as a lie of omission while his family has purposely lied to him.

I disliked it because there had to be some mental gymnastics in Bobby's head if he ever talked to Dean during the time period. What's worse is that this came about because the writers wanted a time skip to set up stuff and it never felt like something that would have organically happened to these characters. Dean's character would have cued in fast something be wrong with Sammy, which is what happened, so they had to keep them apart.

Did Bobby give Dean a lot of 'suck it up princess' speeches? Yep, but I also don't see that Bobby not saying that Sam was out, safe and wanted space to put his head on straight. It's understandable Bobby felt caught in the middle but there's a huge difference with someone just not being part of ones life and the belief that your loved one is enduring pain that you can't even begin to imagine and can never save them from.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I've always thought Dean's position on apologizing was that he didn't see the point of it if you don't intend to change your behavior.

Like he's NEVER not going to Save Sam. And letting Gadreel in was all about Save Sammy. It wasn't because Dean can't live without Sam. It's that Dean can't live with Sam Dead. Those are very different things. It's been drilled into Dean since childhood and it's his Prime Directive to make sure Sam is ALIVE even if he is dead, considering Dean traded his soul for Sam's.   So on that point, no IMO Dean will never apologize. He could have apologized for the continued deception but IMO he was so far down the rabbit hole that he didn't know how to come back from his profound guilt for Kevin's death.

ETA: I think Benny is the only person who didn't flat out lie to Dean.

Definitely. Dean's been shown to live without Sam before, i.e. when Sam went to Stanford. Having failed Sam, i.e. Sam dying, has always been his worst nightmare. That's why I'm kind of surprised he was even remotely functional when he thought Sam was in hell. While Sam has the excuse that he was missing his soul (and has no blame since he didn't ask to be that way when he did get his soul back) it seems like such a terrible cruelty to leave him thinking that he failed. Yes he was keeping his promise (and probably clinging to Lisa/Ben as a reason to even keep moving at all) but he had also let Sam jump.

I also always thought Dean was more a man of action than of words. They're nice and all but if you don't have the stuff to back them up there's really no point.

Did Cassie lie to him? Cannot remember and I'm not real in the mood to go watch racist truck again.

** EDIT - Crap, I just also remembered for this whole Bobby thing - it's canon that Dean was looking for a way to get Sam out without freeing archangels. So, he didn't know Sam was safe, kept himself up at night researching old books which he probably got from Bobby (or at least some of it) and no one tells him it's okay to stop.

Yeah.. I don't blame Bobby. I blame terrible writing. The kind that has only made anybody remember Adam like once after the pit fall.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Airmid

[rue721]

2 hours ago, Airmid said:

I might even say that Dean may have idolized certain aspects of her growing up. And to have that come all crashing down not because she's real and existing with them but because she may not be that nice of a person - well yeah, I can see holding onto those memories when the present offers nothing but the same old.

I think the icing is that she doesn't even know them and with her behavior Dean is never going to be able to open up to her. That's pretty bad, given that he should have a person who unconditionally loves him (mind you not his choices) and have support for once. Sam too.

That's the thing, though -- I don't think he did idolize or mythologize her. It would have made sense for him to, and I think that Sam and Mary assumed that he had, but I don't think he actually did.

Way back in Dark Side of the Moon, Dean was the one who said that John and Mary's marriage was only perfect after she was dead. IMO he was making it clear in that statement that he knew very well that *John* had mythologized her, but that he himself knew/remembered the difference between that myth and reality. And IMO what he's saying currently is consistent with that, too.

I do think that *something* has come crashing down, in the sense that IMO he realized that she is still trapped in the past, and that that's a barrier to her having a real relationship with Sam and Dean now. It's not just that Sam and Dean have moved on from the past that Mary is still trapped in -- they were basically forcibly expelled from it when she died. Being expelled like that changed Dean and his life irrevocably. IMO the life and babies that Mary remembers not only don't exist now, they didn't exist anymore after the night that *she* died. The Dean that she knew died when she did.

I think Dean realized over the course of The Raid that she really, truly doesn't understand that, and that's why his attitude toward her changed over the course of that episode.

[PAForrest]

On 3/12/2017 at 9:52 PM, catrox14 said:

ETA: I think Benny is the only person who didn't flat out lie to Dean.

I do believe our lovely Cajun vamp holds that distinction. Maybe that's why Jensen continues to want him back so badly. Heh.

I am adjusting my idea of why Dean remembered Mary one way when she's clearly not even a little that way - i.e., maternal or loving. I agree that John idealized her and his relationship with her to Dean, and because Dean was so young and still barely more than a toddler when she died, John's pimping definitely worked its way into Dean's brain to explain why he thought of her the way he did until she came back. It would make complete sense that a child so young, who would normally start to forget almost everything about a parent who died so long ago, would be very much influenced by what another parent had to say about her throughout the years. But as we saw in the hunter funeral episode, Mary was probably not that woman, given her wanting to run off - to another country, mind you - to hunt, leaving behind a baby with John, being perfectly aware she might die on a hunt and never return, and clearly not caring about that as much as the hunt.

Thinking back to DSotM, and assuming Zachariah was messing with the guys' heads to get them to a 'yes' place, my head canon is telling me now that Dean might be mis-remembering which parent actually stayed home while the other left the house for a while - because now it would make more sense that it was Mary, and not John (though if John did leave at one time, maybe we can't blame him given Mary's habit of leaving without good explanation). But, too, that the Mary Zach throws at Dean at the end who was bitter and blames him for her death might have been tapping into more of reality than we imagined then. IMO she fits much better with the Mary we're getting now.

Personally I think Mary threw out the idea to Dean and Sam of wanting to be with the memory of her babies as the best excuse she could come up with not to get to know them or want to be with them, because just telling them she wants little to nothing to do with them certainly doesn't make her look good, and she knows that. But I don't buy that shtick anymore, and I hope Dean doesn't either.

Edited March 14, 2017 by PAForrest

[MysteryGuest]

I will acknowledge that a child's memories aren't always accurate, but I'm not willing to throw out everything we were shown about Mary over 11 seasons  just because the writers decided to totally retcon her character into some sort of super hunter.  Had they bothered to learn who she was, they could have still come up with a plausible reason for her to now be emersing herself in the hunting life.  It's just lazy writing.

[Wayward Son]

I might be alone in this, but Mary's hunting skills don't overly bother me. Her involvement with the BMoL bothers me, but not the fact she is skilled at hunting. 

She grew up in the hunting life and presumably left it around 18-19. In my eyes her remaining skills at hunting are no different to the fact that Season One Sam was generally portrayed as still being a skilled hunter despite his time in Stanford.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Wayward Son

[MysteryGuest]

It's the perception that she is the best Winchester that annoys me, not necessarily that she's a skilled hunter. 

[catrox14]

On 3/12/2017 at 7:22 PM, Airmid said:

** EDIT - Crap, I just also remembered for this whole Bobby thing - it's canon that Dean was looking for a way to get Sam out without freeing archangels. So, he didn't know Sam was safe, kept himself up at night researching old books which he probably got from Bobby (or at least some of it) and no one tells him it's okay to stop.

Yeah.. I don't blame Bobby. I blame terrible writing. The kind that has only made anybody remember Adam like once after the pit fall.

The problem I have with Bobby (well ONE of the problems) is that Bobby IMO was projecting HIS desire for a normal life that he had and lost when his wife was possessed and he had to kill her and then became a hunter. The ONE THING Dean wanted was for Sam to be alive. And if Bobby wouldn't tell Dean that his one thing he needed to know to give him peace of mind.  tells me that Bobby really knew fuck all about Dean. But I have lots of Bobby thoughts that are probably best left for the bitterness thread.

[catrox14]

IMO, Dean's memories which IMO are not just visual memories but sense memories too, were and are accurate. He remembers her being loving and taking care of him which I think did happen. She might have been more emotional and giving of herself back then. I think she was able to be both the loving mom to a young child and a hunter, but maybe now she doesn't feel like she has to be that loving mother. I DUNNO. 

IMO, the show needs to explain whether Mary was changed when she was resurrected, I don't mean soulless per se, but that she just isn't right. Like maybe being resurrected essentially from the night she burned to death that maybe she's having some PTSD and can't cope. But they haven't done that so IMO, it's a failure for her character unless they just think it's cool to have Mary be the way she is. 

One of my other (of many thoughts) is that Mary being brought back could be continuing the Carver era of 'Unintended Consequences born of Good Intentions", which I don't mind if it's well explained as I think it was with Dean's MoC arc.( Never mind the resolution).

Dean reunited Amara and Chuck. Her words were to him in thanks were  "You gave me what I needed most. I want to do the same for you" but MO Amara does not understand 'What's dead should stay dead" and she had no understanding of the nuance of human existence and emotion. . 

Longing =/= a need to be met in all cases. It's often nostalgia or just missing someone.  Longing is especially nuanced when it's about one's dead mother. IMO, Amara mistook Dean's longing as a need to be met, as Chuck was for her. If Dabb is continuing with "Unintended Consequences" that's why Mary's resurrection is turning out to be a largely negative experience for Dean, thus far. . Maybe she pinged on something from Dean's childhood that he had moment when he wished Mary was around to relieve him of the burden John placed upon Dean at too young an age. Maybe Dabb thinks Dean needs to be torn down in some way to be healed and IF that is what Dabb is doing he needs  TREAD FUCKING LIGHTLY.

That said, I'm not particularly convinced Mary's resurrection is about Dean at all in the end.

Maybe Dabb is more interested in how Dean attaches to other people, primarily Sam, rather than in Dean as his own person distinct from those to whom Dean is attached. He writes a badass Dean going off to defend someone he loves or he takes extreme measures to save someone or he writes a compromised Dean who is having to rely on those he loves to help him.( Yellow Fever/Regarding Dean). I'm not being bitter about Dean here, but looking at many of Dabb's Dean centric episodes even when his being a badass it's typically because of something that happened to someone he loves (Charlie, Sam in 12.1).   IMO, if Dean is the emotional POV character vs the "Hero" in the "Hero's Journey" of Sam,  then it seems that Mary's resurrection is for Sam not Dean but brought about through Dean.

I've been thinking that maybe Amara pinged on some longing, or regret or latent wish Dean had for Sam to have had his mother for a little while for Sam's sake (and maybe some of his own like I mentioned upthread).  Given that Sam never had Mary and now he does even if it's not exactly what he may have envisioned somewhere in the back of his mind throughout his life, something for Sam maybe better than nothing.

For me, that would explain Sam and Mary allying with the BMOL. Sam's willingness to understand/make excuses for her absences and then her joining the BMOL and him going along with her. It's more positive than negative for Sam unless Sam is carrying a deep resentment that hasn't been revealed yet.  But for Dean there is nothing positive here. He's lost his mother twice and now Mary and Sam are going a direction he's not on board and they lied to him about it. 

Anyway those are my musings.  YMMV

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

It's the perception that she is the best Winchester that annoys me, not necessarily that she's a skilled hunter. 

I just try to remember it's the BMoL saying that and I'm not sure they're very reliable in that way. Ketch is a sociopath and Mick is clearly not a hunter himself. Not to mention the BMoL as a whole are pretty unimpressive and not all that competent. So, just because the Brits are impressed with Mary's hunting skills doesn't mean she actually is impressive as a hunter. I suspect they consider her the "best" simply because she decided to work with them and doesn't cause them any problems.

Personally, I think we've been shown Mary is not a very good hunter. I think they've been showing her clearly out of her depth. I mean, look at the Ramiel situation, it was her plan and it tanked simply because she didn't do her homework and relied on the Brits to do theirs instead. Not a very competent hunter, if you ask me.

[Wayward Son]

22 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I just try to remember it's the BMoL saying that and I'm not sure they're very reliable in that way. Ketch is a sociopath and Mick is clearly not a hunter himself. Not to mention the BMoL as a whole are pretty unimpressive and not all that competent. So, just because the Brits are impressed with Mary's hunting skills doesn't mean she actually is impressive as a hunter. I suspect they consider her the "best" simply because she decided to work with them and doesn't cause them any problems.

Personally, I think we've been shown Mary is not a very good hunter. I think they've been showing her clearly out of her depth. I mean, look at the Ramiel situation, it was her plan and it tanked simply because she didn't do her homework and relied on the Brits to do theirs instead. Not a very competent hunter, if you ask me.

I agree @DittyDotDot . I think Mr. Ketch, Mick etc are unreliable narrators and we aren't meant to take their words as infallible truths. The same way Mr. Ketch states Dean is just like him and yet a few scenes later they contrast the two by showing us that while Ketch is a psychopath who thrives on pain, Dean only does what needs to be done for the good of all. I really don't think that we are meant to believe that she is the bestjust because Mr. Ketch describes her that way. 

As for her skills... I think she is something like the boys in seasons 1-3. She is more than adequate when it comes to dealing with day to day monsters like vampires, shifters, werewolves and low powered demons. However, she is still lacking the experience to cope with the big leagues such as princes of hell, alphas, Angels etc. 

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

As for her skills... I think she is something like the boys in seasons 1-3. She is more than adequate when it comes to dealing with day to day monsters like vampires, shifters, werewolves and low powered demons. However, she is still lacking the experience to cope with the big leagues such as princes of hell, alphas, Angels etc. 

Yeah, I don't mean to say she's terrible, but I think she's just out of her depth. I would assume that's why she's so keen on working with the Brits; they give her tools that help make up for her lacking skills. The "best" hunter wouldn't necessarily need the gadgets. I mean, look at the Alpha Vamp, he was brought down by something Sam and Dean had 11 years ago. And, I'm not even sure they would've needed that if they had really and truly been hunting the Alpha and been prepared for him instead of having to make due with what they had at the time.

Edited March 14, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Airmid]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, the show needs to explain whether Mary was changed when she was resurrected, I don't mean soulless per se, but that she just isn't right. Like maybe being resurrected essentially from the night she burned to death that maybe she's having some PTSD and can't cope. But they haven't done that so IMO, it's a failure for her character unless they just think it's cool to have Mary be the way she is. 

I think this is one of the most frustrating things about her and it mirrors Dean in Season Four. In fact both of them have left, stayed in another afterlife for decades and came back to things being fundamentally different. For Dean, it may have only been a four month change on earth but not only did he come back with forty years extra (if we go by hell time) he gets dropped into the beginning of the apocalypse, introduced to angels and realizing that something seems off and maybe very wrong with his brother. And that's his first episode back. Yet, somehow he soldiers on and we only get small brief glimpses as he has to go save Sam from himself after Bobby keeps giving him variants of the princess speech.

So, if anyone was going to fully understand what Mary's going through, albeit for different reasons, it's Dean. Sam to a lesser extent simply do to the wall shenanigans and how much he remembers after Cas' mind whammy but he could empathize too, especially learning his soulless antics. We aren't in her headspace and I doubt she has any idea what happened to her kids. At all. Which isn't all her fault but is helping make her feel like an outsider.

I will be honest that despite the fact I like Samantha Smith and her portrayals of Mary in past seasons this time around I've been kind of spacing her out after a while. So I may have missed where she knows about their pasts. My apologies if that's the case.

35 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I just try to remember it's the BMoL saying that and I'm not sure they're very reliable in that way. Ketch is a sociopath and Mick is clearly not a hunter himself. Not to mention the BMoL as a whole are pretty unimpressive and not all that competent. So, just because the Brits are impressed with Mary's hunting skills doesn't mean she actually is impressive as a hunter. I suspect they consider her the "best" simply because she decided to work with them and doesn't cause them any problems.

Personally, I think we've been shown Mary is not a very good hunter. I think they've been showing her clearly out of her depth. I mean, look at the Ramiel situation, it was her plan and it tanked simply because she didn't do her homework and relied on the Brits to do theirs instead. Not a very competent hunter, if you ask me.

That whole situation was just frustrating. I'm not sure why she wouldn't have done her homework on Ramiel. I can get that for untold reasons she trusts the BMOL but that still doesn't excuse going in half blind. It doesn't speak volumes to here history being raised as a hunter. Granted she didn't get Dean and Sam's childhood via John but even when Dean adlibs his way through a situation it's not normally because he didn't scope things out first. Or maybe it's just my frustration that no one did their homework at all.

 

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The problem I have with Bobby (well ONE of the problems) is that Bobby IMO was projecting HIS desire for a normal life that he had and lost when his wife was possessed and he had to kill her and then became a hunter. The ONE THING Dean wanted was for Sam to be alive. And if Bobby wouldn't tell Dean that his one thing he needed to know to give him peace of mind.  tells me that Bobby really knew fuck all about Dean. But I have lots of Bobby thoughts that are probably best left for the bitterness thread.

Bobby and Dean's relationship - I could get behind it early on but not later. Bobby was hard on Dean. Really hard. It's interesting that his speech in Lucifer Rising to Dean about family is that they're supposed to make you miserable. To me that seems to be his outlook, especially given his childhood and that he had to kill his father. He is very bitter, all of his wants of having a happy life have been destroyed either by human or supernatural means and it feels like to me that he is past even thinking that there is a normal life or anything different. That this is how it's always going to work and Dean better suck it up and get on with it because nothing was ever going to change.

It's interesting that he also talks about Dean been a better man than John while Bobby is acting in a way that makes me think of John.

Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy some of the character's later episodes such as Weekend at Bobby's but I never saw him as a real father figure. A living encyclopedia that could be supportive when the mood struck him and would show up for them - yeah. As a dad, not so much and especially with how he was with Dean.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I will be honest that despite the fact I like Samantha Smith and her portrayals of Mary in past seasons this time around I've been kind of spacing her out after a while.

This is the puzzling thing for me with Mary.

Samantha Smith is a good actor. She brought gravitas to creepy Mary in two episodes.  But with Mary now I feel like there is no depth or warmth and I go between thinking it's intentional on her part to show that Mary isn't right but the narrative is not even touching on it, so I don't know.

I think in the case of Dean post-Hell Jensen did the best he could to keep Dean's Hell time in play but when the narrative doesn't address it an meaningful way it's hard to know what to think. 

FWIW, I made a post over in Bitch/Jerk about Dean's hell experience that's tangential to this discussion if you're interested.

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I just try to remember it's the BMoL saying that and I'm not sure they're very reliable in that way. Ketch is a sociopath and Mick is clearly not a hunter himself. Not to mention the BMoL as a whole are pretty unimpressive and not all that competent. So, just because the Brits are impressed with Mary's hunting skills doesn't mean she actually is impressive as a hunter. I suspect they consider her the "best" simply because she decided to work with them and doesn't cause them any problems.

Personally, I think we've been shown Mary is not a very good hunter. I think they've been showing her clearly out of her depth. I mean, look at the Ramiel situation, it was her plan and it tanked simply because she didn't do her homework and relied on the Brits to do theirs instead. Not a very competent hunter, if you ask me.

I don't disagree, but it's that same ineptitude that impressed Sam so much he had to sign up with them right away.  That's part of the problem for me.  Am I really supposed to recognize that they're inept, or am I supposed to see them as great, like Sam and Mary?  I wish I could, because it would make their actions more tolerable, but I just don't see it.

As for Mary's behavior since she's been back, I don't think there's anything "wrong" with her.  I just think the writers don't know how to write her character in a believable way.  Obviously, it would be difficult coming back from the dead after 30 years.   The world is different, your babies are now grown men, your husband is dead...I get it, it's a major adjustment.  But can they not show the flip side of that for even a moment?  What an amazing opportunity she's been given to actually know her grown sons.  Can they not show one damn positive thing about her being back?  All she's really done since she's been back is reject them and lie to them. Surely they originally had bigger plans for her return than that, didn't they?

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

That's part of the problem for me.  Am I really supposed to recognize that they're inept, or am I supposed to see them as great, like Sam and Mary?

Well, my stance is always I see what I see regardless of what TPTB may have been trying to show me. Until they show me Mary is the "best" hunter, I'm going to continue to see her as just okay.

19 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't disagree, but it's that same ineptitude that impressed Sam so much he had to sign up with them right away.

Sam hasn't yet really and truly worked with them yet, so I'm not sure he's a reliable narrator either. So far, he's "accidentally" helped them kill the Alpha Vamp and they've sent him on a few hunts, but they're still doing things the Winchester way so far.

IMO, Sam sees they have a plan and that's what impressed him, not necessarily their competence. But once he sees they aren't capable of making that plan happen, I imagine things will be different.

But, the universe does like to make sure I never get what I want, so... .

Edited March 14, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

IMO, Sam sees they have a plan and that's what impressed him, not necessarily their competence. But once he sees they aren't capable of making that plan happen, I imagine things will be different.

But, the universe does like to make sure I never get what I want, so... .

That's what I was hoping for last week.  Just something from Sam to indicate that they suck at hunting, but they do have good intel which they can take advantage of.  I didn't get that.  I saw Sam trying to convince Dean it was the thing to do, and Dean just resigning himself to going along with them, until things go sideways.  Which they inevitably will.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

That's what I was hoping for last week.  Just something from Sam to indicate that they suck at hunting, but they do have good intel which they can take advantage of.  I didn't get that.  I saw Sam trying to convince Dean it was the thing to do, and Dean just resigning himself to going along with them, until things go sideways.  Which they inevitably will.

That's kinda my point, it's all a set up for things to go sideways and until it actually does go sideways, Sam's going to continue to see them as useful, because so far, from his perspective, they have been.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

That's kinda my point, it's all a set up for things to go sideways and until it actually does go sideways, Sam's going to continue to see them as useful, because so far, from his perspective, they have been.

What I don't understand is how Sam can see them as useful when they had a CTU level perimeter that failed to keep out vamps; they couldn't ferret out a traitor in their midst; Mary is the one that stole the Colt and Sam is the one that figured out the bullets. Maybe he respects their ability to manipulate.

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What I don't understand is how Sam can see them as useful when they had a CTU level perimeter that failed to keep out vamps; they couldn't ferret out a traitor in their midst; Mary is the one that stole the Colt and Sam is the one that figured out the bullets. Maybe he respects their ability to manipulate.

I know, believe me, I do, I just think that Sam isn't seeing them as much as he's seeing their overall plan right now. Sam is generally a big picture guy, so I think he's ignoring a lot of stuff right now and telling himself it's not important in comparison to the overall plan. As I've said many times, I think it's naive, but I'm not Sam either.

[AwesomO4000]

It's the plotonium - it hit Sam hard this time. And we can't miss out on the Sam gets it wrong / is duped / whatever fun when it all goes wrong, now can we? *sigh*

So far Dean still seems to be wary enough that it must have missed hitting him this time. Hopefully he won't catch it from Sam.

[DittyDotDot]

56 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It's the plotonium - it hit Sam hard this time. And we can't miss out on the Sam gets it wrong / is duped / whatever fun when it all goes wrong, now can we? *sigh*

So far Dean still seems to be wary enough that it must have missed hitting him this time. Hopefully he won't catch it from Sam.

Eh, I don't know, I kinda see it as they are each taking up their standard positions. Dean's hopes for the best, but plans for the worst while Sam puts all his energy into believing it will all come out okay. While I think it naive of Sam, I'm not sure it's wrong to want to believe. I don't know, I think they'll probably both end up right and wrong in the end, but it'll still be crappy for both of them. 

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Eh, I don't know, I kinda see it as they are each taking up their standard positions. Dean's hopes for the best, but plans for the worst while Sam puts all his energy into believing it will all come out okay. While I think it naive of Sam, I'm not sure it's wrong to want to believe. I don't know, I think they'll probably both end up right and wrong in the end, but it'll still be crappy for both of them.

Taken to the Sam thread...

[Katy M]

22 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The problem I have with Bobby (well ONE of the problems) is that Bobby IMO was projecting HIS desire for a normal life that he had and lost when his wife was possessed and he had to kill her and then became a hunter. The ONE THING Dean wanted was for Sam to be alive. And if Bobby wouldn't tell Dean that his one thing he needed to know to give him peace of mind.  tells me that Bobby really knew fuck all about Dean. But I have lots of Bobby thoughts that are probably best left for the bitterness thread.

OTOH, Bobby might have thought Dean would be better off with his memories of Sam, then actually with weirdo RoboSam.  We didn't see any of Sam and Bobby's interactions before Dean showed up with him, so who knows what happened there.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

OTOH, Bobby might have thought Dean would be better off with his memories of Sam, then actually with weirdo RoboSam.  We didn't see any of Sam and Bobby's interactions before Dean showed up with him, so who knows what happened there.

That was not the reason Bobby gave when he was caught out by Dean. 

From the transcript on SuperWiki

Quote

ean: So...

Sam: Hey, Bobby.
Bobby: Sam.
Dean: You knew? You knew Sam was alive.
Bobby: Yeah.
Dean: How long?
Bobby: Look --
Dean: How long?!
Bobby: All year.
Dean: Oh, you got to be kidding me.
Bobby: And I'd do it again.
Dean: Why?!
Bobby: Because you got out, Dean! You walked away from the life. And I was so damn grateful, you got no idea.
Dean: Do you have any clue what walking away meant for me?
Bobby: Yeah -- a woman and a kid and not getting your guts ripped out at age 30. That's what it meant.
Dean: That woman and that kid -- I went to them because you asked me to.
Bobby: Good.
Dean: Good for who? I showed up on their doorstep half out of my head with grief. God knows why they even let me in. I drank too much. I had nightmares. I looked everywhere. I collected hundreds of books, trying to find anything to bust you out.
Sam: You promised you'd leave it alone.
Dean: Of course I didn't leave it alone! Sue me! A damn year? You couldn't put me out of my misery?
Bobby: Look, I get it wasn't easy. But that's life! And it's as close to happiness as I've ever seen a hunter get. It ain't like I wanted to lie to you, son. But you were out, Dean.
Dean: Do I look out to you?

 

 

From "You Can't Handle the Truth"  transcript

Quote

N

'Course I called Cas. He's not answering. Screw him. I can't wait anymore.

BOBBY
Look, I get it. You're rattled. You're right to be. But let's be professional --

DEAN
Professional? He watched me get turned!

BOBBY
What you saw... are you sure that's what you saw?

DEAN
Damn it, Bobby, yes. I know.

BOBBY
Well, "you know" ain't the same as proof. 'Cause we're talking about --

DEAN
-- we're talking about doing something about this, and fast. It's not just the vamp, okay? He has been different from the jump.

BOBBY
All right. I'm with you.

DEAN
Are you?

BOBBY
Yeah. I'll hit the books, hard. Just don't shoot him yet, all right? Watch him. We need facts. 'Cause if it ain't Sam... we don't know what it is. And if we're gonna put him down, we need to know how.

DEAN
I don't even want to ride in the same car with him, much less work a damn case.

BOBBY
Get in the car. He's your case.

It seems to me if Bobby had been aware of Sam's weirdness and had been side-eying him and not telling Dean in order to protect Dean, then the moment Dean brings up Sam's weirdness he had the chance to concur and maybe even say that's why he didn't tell him. Unless Bobby was trying to protect himself from more of Dean's wrath over Bobby lying to him for a year, which would make him look even worse. I don't think that was the intention in Bobby's deception.

[bearcatfan]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It seems to me if Bobby had been aware of Sam's weirdness and had been side-eying him and not telling Dean in order to protect Dean, then the moment Dean brings up Sam's weirdness he had the chance to concur and maybe even say that's why he didn't tell him. Unless Bobby was trying to protect himself from more of Dean's wrath over Bobby lying to him for a year, which would make him look even worse. I don't think that was the intention in Bobby's deception.

I agree with you here. I don't think Bobby realized that Sam was different until Dean pointed it out.

[FlickChick]

1 hour ago, bearcatfan said:

I agree with you here. I don't think Bobby realized that Sam was different until Dean pointed it out.

Well, let's not forget how Sam pretended to be "normal" in Dean's presence, so I suppose he did in Bobby's too. And who knows how much Bobby actually saw Sam since he appeared to spend the entire year hunting with "Grandpa Campbell" and clan.

[bearcatfan]

57 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Well, let's not forget how Sam pretended to be "normal" in Dean's presence, so I suppose he did in Bobby's too. And who knows how much Bobby actually saw Sam since he appeared to spend the entire year hunting with "Grandpa Campbell" and clan.

Good point. I'd guess that Bobby rarely saw Sam during that year. It was just that Dean knew Sam so much better than Bobby did that he was able to figure out that something was off.

[rue721]

I was just thinking about the discussion wrt Dean's drinking, because I have spent practically all evening working through a backlog of Blue Apron meals (cooked 6 tonight!) with S1 of The Originals playing in the background, and it has reminded me that Joseph Morgan, who plays Klaus Mikaelson on TO, is the absolute best at playing "habitually drunk." LOL I don't know how he's so good at it, but he is AMAZING at it IMO.

He always does this thing where he seems fine, until like 30 seconds or a minute into the scene when he does something a little too sloppy or emotionally incontinent (even for Klaus), and you suddenly realize that Klaus is yet again 3/4 of the way to trashed after all.

[ILoveReading]

I feel like this is one of the few times on the show I have no idea what's going on with Dean.  Even if we don't get a POV episode, I could usually tell from Jensen's acting, either through a look or tone, or the amount and type of alcohol he's drinking.  (That's not meant as a dig against Jensen, I'm just honestly getting mixed signals). What seems to be missing is consistency. 

He looked tired and worn out throughout this last episode, especially in the end seen when turning his head like his neck's stiff and soar.  My first thought was that he hadn't slept all night.   He's never been opposed to booze for breakfast but he's drinking coffee so he could be tired the events of the episode. 

At the end of ep 15, he looked like he was done and just went along because he knew nothing he said or did was going to change Sam's mind, and then we see him work one case where he clearly did not want to be in the Lair o' Letters.   This week he looked  exhausted several times, but next week  (not really a spoiler but will tag just in case)

Spoiler

Dean looks perfectly fine in the promo, and promo stills.   No indication he's in a bad place mentally.

 We haven't seen Dean ask where the colt came from?  Normally that would be his first question.  Hopefully it will be addressed this week,

Are the writers going somewhere with this?  There is several times I got s7 flashbacks where even Jensen commented that he felt the writers had Dean headed from some kind of break down. 

It could also just be  Jensen acting against the script, and trying to show us that even if the writing has Dean agreeing to join he feels Dean wouldn't? 

Or maybe Jensen himself is just tired from a long season of travel, cons, and having 3 kids under 4, with two newborns. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by ILoveReading

[DittyDotDot]

43 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Or maybe Jensen himself is just tired from a long season of travel, cons, and having 3 kids under 4, with two newborns. 

I'm guessing this is the biggest factor. But it could be that since they started working with the Brits, they're working a lot more than usual. Right after Sam signed up, they worked back to back cases and hadn't had any breaks between them. Perhaps they are just tired from all the hunting and need to take a weekend trip to Vegas?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I feel like this is one of the few times on the show I have no idea what's going on with Dean. 

I think the character isn`t particularly involved in anything right now - and I mean that both literally and emotionally. Mary has been one big disappointment and he even had to give up on calling her out on anything, instead tabling his grievances and apologizing to her. Yeah, that is healthy. Then Sam came along with the BMOL pitch a la "btw, you`ve already been working for them." And Dean`s response was pretty much a tired "eh, so be it". I considered his response really nihilistic. 

He is not involved in any of the action, he hasn`t really connected with any guest stars lately, he is kinda there but also not there. Technically, he should have reactions to stuff but in scenes where I think the character would normally say or do something, he either stands there mute or is not in the scene in the first place. The weirdest were the Sam/Eileen scenes because IMO they would have played better if Dean hadn`t been there. Instead, the camera showed him and then just focused on Sam/Eileen as if Dean had simply ceased to exist in the middle of the scene. That was so fucking awkward. What kind of crappy camera work/directing was that?

There are characters who are quiet listeners who can blend with the wall but Dean isn`t really one of them so to me it just looks weird when he does. He is a passionate person, both in good and bad ways so this mutism and passivity all over the place just feels wrong for the character. It`s quite frankly not Dean. And there isn`t really a big reason for it on the show, I don`t think current events have hit him that hard. I could handwave it for an episode maybe but this has been going on for a third of the Season now. 

[catrox14]

I've been thinking lately some of this disconnect with Dean might be intentional.

This is probably mostly my own head!canon but I think Dean is being framed as the outsider in the family now. IMO, Dean never considered himself the outsider in the family. Family has been everything to Dean, for better and for worse.

He's navigated trying to be the good son, the big brother/quasi father to Sam; allied with John in his younger days; being the the little boy that held onto his mother's memory and took care of her and John in a little boy way; the family member who tried his best to keep the peace between Sam and John and help John survive Mary's death;  has extended family in Bobby, Cas, Charlie, Jody, Claire. Even when he tried to distance himself from Sam in s4 and s5, he was more or less shamed by Bobby to return and ally with Sam  etc etc. 

Then at the beginning of this season, Dean is alone with Mary and having trouble connecting with her emotionally because she's messed up.  He calls Cas to tell ask him how to speak with her.  Sam is shown giving John's journal to Mary, and telling her that he knows how it feels to not fit in and feeling like an outsider in his own family, which is juxtaposed with  Dean being  shown alone in the kitchen with beer and pictures of his past.   Cas is semi connected to Dean but he also tells Mary that he understood her feelings of being an outsider.

Dean has been opposite of Sam and Mary by not wanting to join the BMoL before he's more or less cajoled into doing it, with the implication that he'll lose family ties if he doesn't (IMO). He was opposite Mick, Sam, and Claire on using the untested lycanthrope cure on Claire.  His best friend, Cas, who he considers family who has gone MIA to Heaven but Dean doesn't know that Cas is apparently still having an existential crisis re his angel family( which is some bullshit retcon of Cas,  BTW)

I think there is going to be some big thing that happens with Dean that really shows just how he is really still NOT in step with the family and that he is the outsider.

Edited April 11, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think there is going to be some big thing that happens with Dean that really shows just how he is really still NOT in step with the family and that he is the outsider.

 

I hope your right @catrox14.   There has been some interesting shots, first in the The Raid where we see Sam and Mary standing side by side with Dean in the background and then again in Ladies Drink Free, with the triangle light, framing Mick and Sam and Dean on the outside.  I'd like to think that is foreshadowing something, but not getting my hopes up.

All of Dean's inner circle, Mary, Sam, Cas and even Crowley have all lied to him.   It would be disappointed if its all just dropped or swept under the rug again.  We don't know yet if Sam has come clean about the colt.  As I mentioned, there are times over the last 4 episodes that Dean just looks so done and just plain worn out.  I want to believe this all means something and isn't just Jensen putting his own touches in the scripts or just Jensen being tired. 

[Katy M]

18 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

All of Dean's inner circle, Mary, Sam, Cas and even Crowley have all lied to him.   It would be disappointed if its all just dropped or swept under the rug again.  We don't know yet if Sam has come clean about the colt.  As I mentioned, there are times over the last 4 episodes that Dean just looks so done and just plain worn out.  I want to believe this all means something and isn't just Jensen putting his own touches in the scripts or just Jensen being tired. 

To be fair, Dean has lied to Sam, Cas, and Crowley, also.  I'm pretty sure Sam told Dean about the Colt, but Dean didn't say "hey, where'd this come from?"  Just because we don't see a conversation doesn't mean it didn't happen.  For instance, in Season 9, Sam saw Crowley use the needle full of human blood that he'd snaked earlier, and he had obviously told Dean about it off-screen, because Dean made mention of Crowley's addiction as leverage they could use.  IMO, if something comes up later, and there's no surprise about it, I think we can assume the conversation took place at some point.  Plus, Dean probably asked about the alpha vamp kill,  He's always been portrayed as hard to kill and with so many MOLs being taken out, Dean may have found it strange that someone was actually able to get close enough to chop his head off.

[Aeryn13]

I`d agree that the show heavily implied Dean knows about the Colt. Which in and of itself wouldn`t be a big deal but it means he knows about Mary`s ruse and that I wanted to see. Especially as he had to apologize to her at the end of the vamp episode while she stood there gloating and he didn`t even know the scope of her backhandedness then. Maybe that is the reason he seems so done with her now. He learned about her stealing the Colt for the BMOL and thought "why did I even bother?"

Or maybe it`s just more of the current valium!Dean who is kinda there, not doing and saying much of note. 

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`d agree that the show heavily implied Dean knows about the Colt. Which in and of itself wouldn`t be a big deal but it means he knows about Mary`s ruse and that I wanted to see.

Oh, I agree.  That definitely got swept under the carpet way too easily, for both of them. 

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

To be fair, Dean has lied to Sam, Cas, and Crowley, also.  I'm pretty sure Sam told Dean about the Colt, but Dean didn't say "hey, where'd this come from?"  Just because we don't see a conversation doesn't mean it didn't happen. 

I don't think anyone is implying Dean hasn't lied EVER to them.  I took it to be in reference to THIS season and I guess in support of my theorizing that Dean is being alienated purposefully currently. 

I'm just not sure why the show would leave that pretty important conversation away from the viewers other than for a later reveal. My point was more not about the Colt itself but about the implications for Mary's role in the near death of ALL of them and most specifically Cas.

Kind of like in s4, IMO they were going for a big GOTCHA reveal when Dean saw Sam using his Hand of Ipecac and then learning about the demon blood.  I dunno, I'm just hoping I'm wrong and it is still going to happen.

Edited April 12, 2017 by catrox14

[SueB]

Dean did not act surprised about the Colt.  The ONLY issue is whether or not Sam told him that Mary stole the Colt from Ramiel and gave it to the BMoL.  

If it's a big deal AND a secret, then the secret doesn't hold. That's typically the way these things go.  

This year they've made a point of SHOWING us when people are lying.  

So, we've not explicitly seen Sam lie about how they got the Colt back nor have we explicitly seen Sam tell Dean about it.  Personally, I think Dean knew the most damning issue: that Mary lied about the Ramiel hunt being a BMoL job and that job nearly killed Cas and did kill Wally.

To make Sam lie about the origins of the Colt in BMoL hands, without SHOWING it on screen, means Sam think that the fragile peace with Mary would be broken by the news.  But while Sam knows the Colt relationship to the Winchesters, why would Mary?  She made no reference to her boys when turning it over to Ketch.    

This season has gone out of it's way to show Dean is willing to express his own hurt on issues while also working with people he has problems with.  He's also (at least for now) shown he wants Mary in his life even if he does't like what she's doing.  Further, it's had Sam apologize for lying about getting hunts from the BMoL.  And he apologized for the lie while still supporting working with the BMoL.  So, if he failed to explain the Colt-to-BMoL transfer at that time or earlier, continuing to lie about that is really inconsistent with that apology. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by SueB

[MysteryGuest]

I have to believe that the subject of the Colt and how it came to be in their possession again came up after they killed the Alpha Vamp.  We didn't get to see it, but I just don't see how it didn't happen.  Especially since Dean has now held the Colt and just smiled when he unwrapped it.  He didn't freak out or demand to know where the hell it came from, which he certainly would have done if he didn't already know.  

In a perverse way, I think Dean might actually feel better about that whole fucked up Prince of Hell incident, since it ultimately netted them the Colt again.  That's a huge weapon in their fight against all things evil, so at least Wally didn't die in vain.  Both Dean and Sam have already given Mary their opinion about her lies and the role she played in getting Wally killed and almost losing Cas.  I don't see them revisiting it again just because of the Colt.

[catrox14]

IMO, Dean did look surprised when Sam handed him the wrapped Colt.  He was confused as to what Sam was handing him until he unwrapped it.  Then he smiled.

Dean did know the Colt was back because he saw Eileen use it unless he didn't and that just doesn't make sense. 

So the question in my mind is WHY did Dean look surprised when Sam handed it to him.

Did they all ride back to the bunker in the Impala? If so what happened to Sam and Eileen's ride? They met with Mick LONG before Dean got there.

Fi they all rode together then if Dean was NOT surprised to see the Colt then they must have talked about it in the car. IMO it's very likely that Sam told Dean that the BMoL had the Colt but he didn't tell him that Mary procured it for them. That is the drama that is left between Dean and Mary. 

IMO Sam omitting that detail would fit with Sam not telling Dean for a couple of weeks that he had been working with the BMoL and that the cases were fed to them, because he doesn't want Dean and Mary to be a further odds.

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 Both Dean and Sam have already given Mary their opinion about her lies and the role she played in getting Wally killed and almost losing Cas.  I don't see them revisiting it again just because of the Colt.

I think the Colt would be a huge difference for Dean, given the meaning of that weapon in Dean's life. It's an iconic item in the show and it's loaded in the lore of the show.

Personally, I think it would a huge failure of writing for the show to have Dean just not care about it at all.  That's not to say they wouldn't because Dean's Hell time was minimized even though it's a HUGE thing for Dean but I sure hope not.

[PAForrest]

13 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Or maybe it`s just more of the current valium!Dean who is kinda there, not doing and saying much of note. 

Maybe it's because I just got done reading the 50th anniversary edition of Valley of the Dolls that the description of "valium!Dean" feels so on the nose here in season 12. I honestly can't tell anymore if it's Dean or Jensen who is so completely uninterested in, and disconnected from, anything and everything that's going on now, but the on screen result is exactly the same. I don't think it matters if the audience is supposed to wonder if Dean knows or doesn't know about the colt or anything else that's happening around him, because these writers aren't concerned with details like that.

All I know is that Dean is muted, and I don't think it's a plot device choice. And if that's the case, yes, I agree it's a huge failure.

Edited April 13, 2017 by PAForrest

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Maybe it's because I just got done reading the 50th anniversary edition of Valley of the Dolls that the description of "valium!Dean" feels so on the nose here in season 12. I honestly can't tell anymore if it's Dean or Jensen who is so completely uninterested in, and disconnected from, anything and everything that's going on now, but the on screen result is exactly the same. I don't think it matters if the audience is supposed to wonder if Dean knows or doesn't know about the colt or anything else that's happening around him, because these writers aren't concerned with details like that.

All I know is that Dean is muted, and I don't think it's a plot device choice. And if that's the case, yes, I agree it's a huge failure.

Maybe I'll appreciate the season more when it ends.  I wasn't' thrilled with s9 at first, but after watching it through with interruptions I could really see the tole the lies were taking on the Dean, the guilt at lying to Sam and Cas eating away at him.  You could really see Dean's downward spiral.  JA did such a great job conveying that.  I know its an unpopular opinion but I really liked s9 for that reason.  Its my favorite overall performance for Jensen.

If there is something planned, and Dean feels like he's losing his family then him being disengaged makes a kind of sense.   Even though I wasn't a big fan of either storyline (Lucifer or Men of Letters) I was actually enjoying the season in my own way (up to ep 12) because I really liked how Jensen was playing Dean.  I liked his renewed sense of purpose, his increased confidence in himself and having a backbone.

Then I was let feeling really confused by the end of episode 14 and 15.   The show gave me the impression that Dean just wanted Mary around, and to have him apologize for wanting soup and hey Jude, came out of left field.  So I honestly don't know if i was supposed to see Dean standing up for himself in the earlier eps as character growth or just the writers thinking Dean was being petulant.  I can't read Dean's POV lately.   With reguards to family stuff he's kind of lost his voice since then

The end of episode 15 is one of those rare occasions I felt let down by Jensen's acting.  I can't tell if I was watching a Dean who open to giving them a shot, a Dean who was resigned and went along to keep the peace or JA not agreeing with the writing and breaking character. 

If something is going on with Dean, the last two episodes have lacked the usual red flags. 

Like I mentioned earlier, I'm completely lost as to what's happening with Dean this season. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Goldmoon]

DOES Sam know how the BMOL got the Colt?  I can't stomach a re-watch, but I don't seem to remember Mary admitting to him that she stole it from Ramiel.  I don't think JA is bringing it this season, which may be a reflection of him being torn by wanting to do well at work and wanting to be with his wife and children.  If I fanwank Dean's lassitude, I might think he is walking on eggshells and/or depressed because he worried not that he will lose Mary, but that he will lose SAM.  After all the things they have been through together, Sam ought to feel like "where Dean goes, so goes my nation."  If Sam doesn't feel loyalty to Dean above those feelings that he is trying to nurture with Mary, I will think a lot less of Sam.

[Myrelle]

On ‎4‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 2:38 PM, Aeryn13 said:

I think the character isn`t particularly involved in anything right now - and I mean that both literally and emotionally. Mary has been one big disappointment and he even had to give up on calling her out on anything, instead tabling his grievances and apologizing to her. Yeah, that is healthy. Then Sam came along with the BMOL pitch a la "btw, you`ve already been working for them." And Dean`s response was pretty much a tired "eh, so be it". I considered his response really nihilistic. 

So did I.

On ‎4‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 10:43 PM, ILoveReading said:

hope your right @catrox14.   There has been some interesting shots, first in the The Raid where we see Sam and Mary standing side by side with Dean in the background and then again in Ladies Drink Free, with the triangle light, framing Mick and Sam and Dean on the outside.  I'd like to think that is foreshadowing something, but not getting my hopes up.

All of Dean's inner circle, Mary, Sam, Cas and even Crowley have all lied to him.   It would be disappointed if its all just dropped or swept under the rug again.  We don't know yet if Sam has come clean about the colt.  As I mentioned, there are times over the last 4 episodes that Dean just looks so done and just plain worn out.  I want to believe this all means something and isn't just Jensen putting his own touches in the scripts or just Jensen being tired. 

Unfortunately, I think it's this, though. I guess we'll see by the end of the season, but I'm not expecting much especially after the episode where we got that forced and ludicrously written apology to Mary at the end.

But...there was that one scene at the very end of the Claire episode-the phone call to Jody where she said she needed to hunt on her own and she owed that decision all to Jody's being like a mother to her that made me feel as if Dean might possibly say something similar to his mother/family at/towards the end of this season because he is for sure being written as the outsider this season, IMO too. And Jensen IS again playing it as if, at times, Dean is So. Done. with all the BS that his family continues to shovel his way even while they continue to ask for unconditional love, trust, and support from him.

I know that his leaving them wouldn't last longer than the summer hiatus and that all kinds of hell(literally) will more than likely break loose as soon as he sets one foot out the door and he'll have to come back in the S13 premiere likely for that very reason, but to see him strike out on his own for long thought-out and more contemplative reasons rather than out of mostly hurt or angry feelings/reasons would be extremely satisfying to this long-time Deanfan.

And then there would be the  mystery of what he'd done and who he'd done it with during those summer months, too.

It's a small hope, but it's all I've got right now and the best I can do.

And unless it goes this way, I can only assume that Jensen is once again just doing the best he can with the nothing(literally) material that he's being/been given this season.

Sadly, and at this point, this season feels like it's on it's way to becoming the newest version of the most poorly written season of the entire series to me. Every time I think it couldn't get any worse, we get a season like this one is shaping up to be, and I'm proven wrong about that all over again and I'm back to wishing with all of my being that they would just a put a fork in the show already.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

I don`t think plot-wise or even emotionally anything is supposed to be going on with Dean. The writers aren`t subtle about this stuff so in this case, what you see is what you get. Unfortunately, I don`t see anything really so just as the character isn`t involved or invested in anything, neither am I.  

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this season feels like it's on it's way to becoming the newest version of the most poorly written season of the entire series

I thought Season 8.B was atrociously bad but there was some stuff in 8.A that I liked. Then in Season 11 the MOTW episodes really sucked for me but at least I occasionally had the Amara stuff to look forward to. This Season, the MOTW are even worse in my opinion, there no longer is a plot arc I enjoy and Dean`s character is like watching something under water.

In terms of Jensen`s portrayal, in the occasional scene/episode he still perks up but overall I`m not sure he could do anything differently. If he isn`t in scenesto begin with or doesn`t do or say anything noteworthy, then there is nothing even the actor can do.  

And I, too, thought while it was nothing to write home about, the first half-ish of the Season wasn`t so bad, at times terribly boring but that is different than it is now. Maybe it`s because of the string of bad eps lately. Ep 16 had some okay moments but overall from the Ramiel hunt to now, Dean was like the lost tale of some different show. And it feels weirder and weirder to me. Cas hasn`t really been onscreen much, if at all, in the last few episodes and his character feels more involved currently in that there is a mystery going on with him right now and I kinda know how he feels. 

At this point I would be happy with the MOC back on Dean because at least he was passionate then. And he killed stuff, lest he die. As a demon the character was nihilistic but in a hedonistic way. This right now feels more like "hello? hello? is the mic even on?"