S04.E01: Green Arrow

[catrox14]

 

He wasn't really crying crying, it was one single Dean Winchester tear.

 

Just because he's not sobbing doesn't mean Oliver is not really upset by this loss. There are more ways to show grief and loss than just crying. It's behind the eyes, the other facial expressions, body language etc.  I won't get into my dissertation about Dean Winchester but since Dean Winchester and his OPT are being referenced in relation to Oliver, IMO Dean Winchester's OPT is misunderstood as being an indicator that he doesn't care as much as someone who is sobbing.   Dean's a messed up guy who at  has trouble talking about his deepest emotions for myriad reasons but that doesn't mean he cares less. There is always more stuff being communicated with Dean than just by that one tear ( which is actually not as much as when he cries out of both eyes..but I digress). 

 

I see that with Oliver here. Oliver's messed up too. He pushes stuff away.  Maybe since Barry is there, Oliver might not want to show more emotions in that moment.

 

It could be a real world acting problem because we don't see who he's crying over.  If it's true that SA  didn't know who he's supposed to be crying over, maybe he was trying to strike that balance between showing grief for someone he cares about deeply but not so too much if it's someone who we might not expect him to have even that much grief over. 

[AyChihuahua]

IMO he has the perfect level of grief, for Quentin's heroic death post-Oliver/Quentin resolution and torch-passing.

 

For me the other contenders are baby Mama (but not baby, bc I think he'd be devastated by his son's death even if he only recently met him), or MAYBE Lyla, although I can't see Oliver still standing there post-funeral and Digg not..  I really doubt it's Laurel, even though the story reasons for it to be her make perfect sense.  It's not Digg or Felicity or Thea, and I don't think it's Roy.  

[Chaser]

Guggie said the death was real, i.e., not a fakeout or fixed somehow.  He's lied in the past, but assuming he's not lying now, it's not Felicity.  Their ratings would plummet if they really killed Felicity, and they know that, the CW knows that, and Berlanti et al., know that.  It's just not going to happen.

 

Oh, on rewatch, I didn't like Felicity's line re having the train station in the office pool.  I thought it was a little flippant for the circumstances, so I'm hoping they don't over-correct on Felicity this season.

Yeah, I wasn't a real fan of that line either. I was getting annoyed with MG when he was really pushing the 'She's Funny, She's Funny!.' I'm hoping they don't over do it either.

 

Felicity seemed to be on a vigilant-high in this episode. She was so happy to be back. I'll give it a pass on this one.

[arjumand]

Yeah, I wasn't a real fan of that line either. I was getting annoyed with MG when he was really pushing the 'She's Funny, She's Funny!.' I'm hoping they don't over do it either.

 

Felicity seemed to be on a vigilant-high in this episode. She was so happy to be back. I'll give it a pass on this one.

 

Yeah, I hated it when she was with Ray, and every episode was QUIP CENTRAL! LOOK HOW FUNNY WE ARE.

 

Have I said how much I love it that Felicity was bored stiff in suburbia? Because I love it. I loved everything about that, especially the spluttering when Stepford couple Bob and Carol mentioned kids (even Oliver's face froze into a rictus horrified grin). I love that Felicity never wanted the white picket fence or the perfectly manicured lawn. It's less funny that Oliver is the great cook in the couple - that's more of a cliche and like it was chosen to have us, who know where Oliver's talents lie, rolling in the aisles, holding our aching sides (I'd rather have them both be like "Eh. Cooking, shmooking. Buy a prepacked salad and a couple of steaks and let's go back to bed").

 

And I don't have a slow cooker (they're not really a thing where I live), but do you really cook eggs in them? I mean, she was eating some form of scrambled eggs or omelette, but in a slow cooker? Don't they get rubbery if you cook them too long? Yes, it bothered me, ok. I'm a nitpicking pedant, and this bothered me.

[apinknightmare]

I make scrambled egg breakfast casseroles in the slow cooker all the time and they come out really good. Nice and tender. I suppose anything could get rubbery in there if you cook it too long. Not sure why Oliver would've chosen that method, except for the fact that the neighbor was probably a working mom and pressed for time, and it makes sense to me that he'd make use of her tip and serve her the results.

[arjumand]

I make scrambled egg breakfast casseroles in the slow cooker all the time and they come out really good. Nice and tender. I suppose anything could get rubbery in there if you cook it too long. Not sure why Oliver would've chosen that method, except for the fact that the neighbor was probably a working mom and pressed for time, and it makes sense to me that he'd make use of her tip and serve her the results.

 

Ok, thanks, it really did bother me because I've never used a slow cooker!

 

Yeah, Oliver really fell down the rabbit hole! Though I stopped rolling my eyes at him when he came back to Star(ling) City and everyone started using him as a punching bag.

[tarotx]

Oliver adapts and becomes like the natives. It's why he needs cool awesome people around him. 

[foreverevolving]

I make scrambled egg breakfast casseroles in the slow cooker all the time and they come out really good. Nice and tender. I suppose anything could get rubbery in there if you cook it too long. Not sure why Oliver would've chosen that method, except for the fact that the neighbor was probably a working mom and pressed for time, and it makes sense to me that he'd make use of her tip and serve her the results.

Somehow I got the distinction that Ms. Hoffman was a stay at home mom.. she just had that "stay at home-soccer mom" glow thing.

[apinknightmare]

Could be. Even still, makes sense to me that he'd use the tip to prepare her brunch.

[kismet]

It could be a real world acting problem because we don't see who he's crying over.  If it's true that SA  didn't know who he's supposed to be crying over, maybe he was trying to strike that balance between showing grief for someone he cares about deeply but not so too much if it's someone who we might not expect him to have even that much grief over. 

I'd laugh if by the time they figure out who dies, both SA & GG have a freak out that they didn't capture the right emotion and then we have to have a reshoot of the grave scene. It would be funny because the audience would have spent months analyzing facial expressions & quantity/quality of tears or grief reaction - only to be told, yeah it didn't really matter this is how the scene really went down now that we know its character X.

 

It would be a classic over-analysis of a disappearing or changing target. Plus the writers could totally bait & switch the emotional level of that scene by having the reaction go to another extreme after the big name reveal. It would be annoying and cheap for them to completely change the emotional response of GG & SA a few months from now. I would be pissed if they did that, but I could totally see them not caring.

[arjumand]

 

It would be a classic over-analysis of a disappearing or changing target. Plus the writers could totally bait & switch the emotional level of that scene by having the reaction go to another extreme after the big name reveal. It would be annoying and cheap for them to completely change the emotional response of GG & SA a few months from now. I would be pissed if they did that, but I could totally see them not caring.

Oh, absolutely.

Remember, these were the guys who, when the fans pointed out that an ensemble character was essentially electrocuted by a guy Oliver then became best buds with, and then seemingly left where he fell, their reasoned response was: "oh, we forgot about Roy. Whoops. Our bad."

 

(O.T. I have nothing against Brandon Routh, but holy crap, Ray Palmer essentially swallowed a lot of the season, at the expense of so much character development for characters I actually gave a shit about, because I hated Ray Palmer.)

 

So I have no problem believing they would reshoot the scene, if they felt the emotional aspect wouldn't match what came in between now and SIX MONTHS LATER.

 

I really don't like all this fiddling. I've come to hate the in medias res beginning (the nadir was reached by a movie I watched recently, called Infini, where the ending is given away in the first 60 seconds), and now I'm developing a dislike for this flash-forward kind of thing.

[Carrie Ann]

when I say "far enough" I mean emotionally, if Thea or Felicity were to die Oliver will have a nervous breakdown and would probably bring down the city if needed, for Diggle & Roy he will shed a few tears but won't be as devastated, but just devastated enough to want to avenge them, for Lance he'll be sad but I don't see him care enough to break his no kill vow.

 

I agree with others that not much emphasis should be placed on how sad Oliver seemed, but also, I think people may be putting too much emphasis on Oliver breaking the no-kill thing. DD has already proven that he's probably too far gone to be redeemed or to ever stop killing innocent people. (Oliver killed Ra's when he demonstrated the same thing. I believe he would have killed him at that point regardless of whether Ras had attempted to kill Thea or not.) Who knows how much worse things will have become in six months? So Oliver may be reacting to six months of the city and his friends/family being terrorized, rather than just reacting to that one death. It could just be him saying it out loud for the first time, taking that on as his responsibility.

[KirkB]

Oliver isn't Batman or Superman, who have extremely strict no kill policies for a reason. While I don't think he should go back to the "shoot him between the eyes because he looked at me funny" mentality of season 1, for a guy who deals with the kind of stuff he does on a pretty much daily basis he doesn't have to pinky swear he will never ever kill again. Even Diggle would take issue with that. There are circumstances Oliver might have to face where his only choice is kill or lots of people die and he shouldn't be in a position to doubt himself. There is a difference, for someone like the Green Arrow as he is on the show, between killing people to make a point or to hide his identity, as he did early on, and killing to save the city or innocent lives.

 

On a lighter note, "Felicity Smoak, you have failed this omelet" made me laugh way too loudly for way too long. :)

[AyChihuahua]

Oliver isn't Batman or Superman, who have extremely strict no kill policies for a reason. While I don't think he should go back to the "shoot him between the eyes because he looked at me funny" mentality of season 1, for a guy who deals with the kind of stuff he does on a pretty much daily basis he doesn't have to pinky swear he will never ever kill again. 

That was only like two guys, geez!  So demanding!

 

Also, post-vow not to kill, he killed quite a few people, from Cyrus Gold to random LOA guy he knew wasn't Digg to RAG.  He didn't ONLY kill for Felicity (or Thea).  

[BkWurm1]

Oh, on rewatch, I didn't like Felicity's line re having the train station in the office pool.  I thought it was a little flippant for the circumstances, so I'm hoping they don't over-correct on Felicity this season.

 

It worked for me since I'd managed not to be spoiled about the train but the grand opening of the train station was my immediate pick for where the bombs were going to go so when Felicity had picked it too, I laughed and then laughed at how no one else was sympathetic to the delight of being right. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Watching the episode for the nth time; it's the first episode I've actually enjoyed pretty much the whole way through in quite a while. I find it interesting that in an ep designed to get viewers interested and invested in characters and story lines, Laurel once again is made pretty much irrelevant. Most of her dialogue could have been delivered by Thea, IMO, or even Diggle. She's not a vital component in the fight scenes; in fact, I found her distracting because there were a couple of moments where she was just standing around in a pose while everybody else was fighting (or shooting, in Digg's case). Sure she's the one who finds out about the attack on the city leaders, but that could have played out without the team involved since no one, except for Lance, was saved anyway. And in her big scene saving her dad, she ends up needing to be saved — again. Take her away from that ep, and nothing really changes. 

[Primal Slayer]

All the heroes needed saving in this episode. Same could practically be said for Thea, apart from Oliver finding her beating the guy to death, take that scene out and anything could be given to anyone else. But knowing what we know for future episodes, hopefully what have in store for Laurel doesn't seem rushed by not planting the seeds for it in the premiere.

[KirkB]

I agree with you, SmallScreenDiva. This was one of those episodes where if Laurel had been absent it would have had no affect on the narrative. Even as the Canary she doesn't seem to have a lot to do. Oliver is the central figure they needed back, the others seem to be mostly allergic to technology without Felicity, DIggle is torn between vigilantism and his family, Quentin seems to be taking a turn toward the dark side and Thea has anger management issues. Laurel was just...kind of there. She didn't negatively affect the story but I don't think she particularly helped it either.

Edited October 11, 2015 by KirkB

[dtissagirl]

Someone in the Spoiler thread mentioned this episode gave very clear indication for the season arc of every character, except Laurel. Oliver has finding a way to be a superhero without succumbing to the darkness. Diggle has the HIVE secret and his brother. Felicity has Palmer Tech. Thea has the Lazarus Pits effects. Quentin has his deal with the devil. Laurel got nothing.

 

If they're still doing that thing where the first episode encapsulates the narrative of the entire season... it's very very telling. I mean I'm good with it because ugh, Laurel. But they skipped her hardcore.

[kismet]

Well they might have shown you the outcome of LL's arc in the last 2 minutes. Sorry, its just too easy - because really besides standing there in group scenes there was no real story arc or plot that was just about LL. All her scenes were about someone or something else. Even the wink scene felt more like a cute look at the new tone of the show scene. She really seemed there to remind us that QL had a loved one he could lose at DD's hand through his inaction or maybe because of his involvement with DD.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm thinking her arc is dealing with her dad's death, and they couldn't set it up or mention it in interviews bc spoilers.  

 

I mean hey, I'll throw a party if Laurel dies, too...the only member of the Lance clan that I give a flying fart about is Sara.  But I really don't think it's going to happen.  I think she's just going to be BC and deal with her dad's death and otherwise just kind of be around. 

[nksarmi]

I felt like what they did with Laurel was just fine.  She's probably going to become the next DA or something the way things are going in Starling (or is it Star City?), but it's not particularly interesting to show her doing her DA/ADA job in a city that is supposed to be so out of control that criminals are running nuts and city leaders are being killed. 

 

Actually let's think about who got killed again real quick.....Oliver clearly should become Mayor lol, they need to bring Walter back to be the Comptroller, Laurel is easily the next DA......

Edited October 11, 2015 by nksarmi

[Chaser]

Even if Lance is the one who bits it, they should have set something up for her. They could have talked about the whole DA v Mask thing, had a Sara mention or a moment with Lance that was about her and not him.

The DA died so they could have thrown in a comment about how she needs to step into that role.

[bijoux]

I'm thinking her arc is dealing with her dad's death, and they couldn't set it up or mention it in interviews bc spoilers.  

 

I mean hey, I'll throw a party if Laurel dies, too...the only member of the Lance clan that I give a flying fart about is Sara.  But I really don't think it's going to happen.  I think she's just going to be BC and deal with her dad's death and otherwise just kind of be around. 

I honestly don't want Laurel to die for Quentin's sake. I may be saying I'm done with him but I really don't want him to go through losing his kid for the third time. That would be worse than death. It would be kinder on him if he were the one in the grave rather than Laurel.

[dtissagirl]

I'm thinking her arc is dealing with her dad's death, and they couldn't set it up or mention it in interviews bc spoilers. 

 

But if the death is in six months, that doesn't give her a storyline until April.

 

I mean, I know Laurel's gonna be involved in

Sara's ressurection that doesn't start until 403

, but it was still making her officially the Sixth Banana in this particular episode.

[nksarmi]

Even if Lance is the one who bits it, they should have set something up for her. They could have talked about the whole DA v Mask thing, had a Sara mention or a moment with Lance that was about her and not him.

 

There was a LOT going on in this episode - it could have easily been a two-hour premiere in my opinion.  But what they did do with Laurel was establish that Thea is living with her and gave them a little tiny girl team moment.  I think we will see some more of that going forward.  Thea is going to go through something, but I think they are going to have Laurel help her through it - not Oliver.  And I am kind of ok with that.  Thea and Laurel both had to live with their family being torn apart when Sara/Oliver "died," they both have dealt with addiction, Laurel went through her "loving the danger" arc last season and she should theoretically be able to help Thea better than Oliver because she should have more empathy and less "over protective brother" thing going on.  So there is that.

 

Then clearly there is going to be family drama with Lance and if we are right and he is the death - that death will happen in Spring and give her a couple of months to deal with it leading into sweeps.  Plus Laurel will probably be involved or at least impacted by the pending Sara resurrection.  She has plenty going on this season.

[AyChihuahua]

But if the death is in six months, that doesn't give her a storyline until April.

 

I mean, I know Laurel's gonna be involved in

Sara's ressurection that doesn't start until 403

, but it was still making her officially the Sixth Banana in this particular episode.

I'm not totally on board with it being six months real time.  Also, personally I think she basically is going to be the sixth banana.  She has failed in her main purpose, but they keep her around.  That is on the writers for not getting rid of her when they should have.

[nksarmi]

Eh, who cares if Laurel is the "6th banana"?  I'm kind of ok with her being around and being part of the ensemble.  Heck, I enjoyed the hell out of Roy even when he was the "6th banana." 

 

Besides while I know this show is Arrow and all that, I'd really like to see Laurel, Thea, and Felicity have some "girl power" moments.  I would very much enjoy an episode where Oliver and Diggle get trapped by Darkh and the three girls plus Lyla have to go save the boys.  I don't see much potential for "girl bonding" moments over on Flash and while Legends of Tomorrow might - I say might - give us something with their two female leads, I'd say Arrow has the most potential in this department at the moment and I'd like to see Laurel be a part of that. 

[Smoaking Reporter]

Even if Lance is the one who bits it, they should have set something up for her. They could have talked about the whole DA v Mask thing, had a Sara mention or a moment with Lance that was about her and not him.

The DA died so they could have thrown in a comment about how she needs to step into that role.

Maybe she will step into that role in the next episode.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Smoaking Reporter

[Chaser]

I would spoiler tag that. Storylines can be inferred for Laurel in the episode. Lance's daughter. Thea's roomie. The DA died. It's only interesting that the storylines have to be inferred, because everyone else got a sign pointing to their arc.

[Smoaking Reporter]

I would spoiler tag that. Storylines can be inferred for Laurel in the episode. Lance's daughter. Thea's roomie. The DA died. It's only interesting that the storylines have to be inferred, because everyone else got a sign pointing to their arc.

Sorry. Don't know how to do that. Could you help me out if you don't mind?

[Chaser]

I'm on mobile so I don't have access to all my icons. I cant remember which one it is, if you highlight over it should tell you. You just type the spoiler into the box and that hides that portion. I'm probably not explaining this well.

Edited October 11, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Smoaking Reporter]

I'm on mobile so I don't have access to all my icons. I cant remember which one it is, if you highlight over it should tell you. You just type the spoiler into the box and that hides that portion. I'm probably not explaining this well.

I understand your instructions just fine. I'm just going to erase the part that is spoilerish & wait until I'm near a computer to get the hang of it. I'm on mobile too & it's a pain. Thanks for your help.

[Morrigan2575]

If you're on a mobile just do [*spoiler]this is my spoiler [*/spoiler] without the * and everything in between the Spoiler tags will be hidden.

[Chaser]

I haven't seen anyone mention it, but I loved background Felicity in that kitchen scene. Her reaction to that piece of egg falling off the fork was so funny.

It reminded me of background Felicity v The Inflated Clown last season.

EBR keeps it on.

Edited October 12, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Morrigan2575]

I haven't seen anyone mention it, but I loved background Felicity in that kitchen scene. Her reaction to that piece of egg falling off the fork was so funny.

It reminded me of background Felicity v The Inflated Clown last season.

EBR keeps it on.

I totally missed that, I only caught it because one of the reviews/articles has a gif of that scene embedded in the article.  That was funny.

[bijoux]

I loved that too but felt I was already harping so much on how terrific she and Oliver were together that I was afraid mentioning it would be overkill.

[Password]

I know we've already gone over this, but as I was watching the episode again I realised that Thea, Diggle and Lance all mentally and emotionally slapped Oliver one after the other. Boom boom boom.

Thea really did have a season 1 flashback moment, Diggle was cruel with his no love no trust and Lance was illogical when he said Oliver brought darkness to Starling. Maybe Slade, but even then, The Glades would've been destroyed completely if not for team Arrow.

I'll say it again, Bob and Laura Hoffman were boring but they were benign.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Password

[Menrva]

Finally got around to watching this episode and I guess I liked it? Parts of it were really fun, such as O/F scenes and I didn't mind Thea and Laurel too much, especially Thea's enthusiasm for crime fighting, which was actually kind of funny and cute. Lance was a broken record of "I hate Oliver" and I'm just getting tired of his irrational obsession. He really is Javert-lite. 

But I just couldn't watch BC. I could barely tolerate LL. The scene at the train station with the little boy was so over the top, shoving it down my throat "See, LL is a hero, she's totally the BC now, that little boy has endorsed her as a 'Strong Female Character'!!!!!!" Yeah, I'm kind of choking on the buckles here.

Neal McDonough was definitely scary as Damien Darkh (god, I hate that stupid spelling) and I'm curious about the glowing script on his arms (was that Tibetan? Not sure) so I guess I'm in for season 4.

[tv echo]

Neal McDonough was definitely scary as Damien Darkh (god, I hate that stupid spelling) and I'm curious about the glowing script on his arms (was that Tibetan? Not sure) so I guess I'm in for season 4.

MG's recent tumblr posting said that it was a variation on Sanskrit.

Edited October 12, 2015 by tv echo

[Primal Slayer]

I know we've already gone over this, but as I was watching the episode again I realised that Thea, Diggle and Lance all mentally and emotionally slapped Oliver one after the other. Boom boom boom.

Thea really did have a season 1 flashback moment, Diggle was cruel with his no love no trust and Lance was illogical when he said Oliver brought darkness to Starling. Maybe Slade, but even then, The Glades would've been destroyed completely if not for team Arrow.

I'll say it again, Bob and Laura Hoffman were boring but they were benign.

Slade and Ra's both targeted Starling because of Oliver. The writers are trying to use the Batman thing where he basically helped give birth to all of these villains by suiting up.

[Smoaking Reporter]

If you're on a mobile just do [*spoiler]this is my spoiler [*/spoiler] without the * and everything in between the Spoiler tags will be hidden.

Ok thanks!

[maczero]

I've got another candidate for who's in that grave.  It's his baby mama.  Sure, he doesn't know he has a kid yet but I'd put money on it that the reveal will happen soon.

[Password]

I only said Slade because Oliver gave him the crazy serum. Malcolm and Ra's were just insane. Oliver said no to Ra's and he had a hissy fit. Can't blame Oliver for that. (Unless we blame him for going after Malcolm again when Ra's had him in which case yes, Oliver stupidity).

Actually now that I think about it, didn't Slade say it didn't matter that he had Mirakuru in his veins? I'm tempted to say he would've gone after Oliver anyway.

Bad things happen, the bad guys can't blame others for their insane reactions.

[Primal Slayer]

Ra's and Slade targeted Starling because of Oliver. Especially as far as Ra's is concerned if he had just given Nyssa, Malcolm, Ra's/Oliver never would've met and Ra's wouldn't fall head over heels for him and want him all to himself.

[apinknightmare]

I'm hesitant to blame Oliver for Slade, because he was crazy and driven by irrational hatred. I mean, yeah, he could have cured him, but it seems to me that Slade would've gone after Oliver whether he was Arrow or not, even if he had just made it home as Oliver Queen. Ra's is totally his fault though.

Edited October 12, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Starfish35]

Slade targeted Starling City because of Oliver. That's not the same as saying it was his fault, because what happened to Shado was in no way Oliver's fault. But if Oliver had never come home, or had died on the island, Slade probably never would have come to SC.

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, but Quentin's logic is that Oliver's a terrible person and his returning home to vigilantism made him a monster so monsters followed him. Slade would've followed him regardless, IMO, so I disagree with Quentin's argument there, which is the point I was not so successful in making.

ETA:Not that Quentin would know that, but now that I think he's an irredeemable, repetitive asshole, I am holding it against him.

Edited October 12, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Starfish35]

I do disagree with Quentin, but I actually could see his logic if he was only talking about Slade. While I don't blame Oliver for Slade, I have to think that all the people who lost loved ones to Slade's mirakuru soldiers would likely not be so understanding. So if it was just Slade, I could sort of see Quentin's argument, because Slade did come to Starling because of Oliver, even though that's not Oliver's fault.

But with this statement, Quentin is lumping Malcolm and the Undertaking in with the others, and that would have happened with or without Oliver, whether he died in the boat wreck or just never put on the hood. And that's what I take issue with.

[catrox14]

Ra's and Slade targeted Starling because of Oliver. Especially as far as Ra's is concerned if he had just given Nyssa, Malcolm, Ra's/Oliver never would've met and Ra's wouldn't fall head over heels for him and want him all to himself.

 

If we are going to play the blame game, this is really all Malcolm's fault in the end. If Malcolm never sinks the Queen's Gambit

 

-- Oliver never ends up on the island being subjected to myriad totally fucked survive or die scenarios .. ..

-- which means he never meets Slade who goes crazy and plots revenge on Oliver for reasons and who kills Oliver's mother and is going to kill Thea and Felicity and who knows who else along with creating a soldier army that invades the glades

-- And never gets involved with the LoA because he's never on the island in the first place

 

So really I blame all of this on Malcolm. 

 

And as soon as the show gets back to blaming Malcolm the better.

Edited October 12, 2015 by catrox14