S05.E01: Separation Anxiety

[Constantinople]

I'm going with the theory that he knew how to make the bomb big enough to blow up the one apartment but small enough to not to injure anyone beyone the walls.

 

But is it ever possible to determine precisely how big the blast is going to be? It just seems irresponsible considering the diplomatic nightmare that would occur if an innocent person got killed and the German public found out it was at the hands of a CIA agent gone semi-rogue. That would be a much bigger deal than the spying. There have got to be less conspicuous ways of taking out low-level terrorists.

 

I wonder about Quinn, who didn't bother with gloves in the bombs-above-chickenberg apartment.

 

I was wondering if, in the real world, there might be enough evidence for experts to determine that the "bomber" was tied up when the bomb went off.  Or, if given the power of the bomb and the contained area in which it exploded, it wouldn't be possible.

[slowpoked]

 

Although considering we never found out if Saul's big intel play in Iran in season 3 actually worked, I doubt there will be any season 4 follow up.

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, but there was a little bit towards the Season 3 finale where Saul was reading the newspaper that Javadi was able to stop the war and improve economic relations in Iran (my memory is hazy, just that I remember Saul mentioning something about Javadi being in power did something good). So they did wrap up the storyline there and the Javadi play paid off, I guess.

 

The other thing that bothered me too was that there didn't seem to be any repecussions against Dar Adal, the main man who negotiated with Haqqani that went for nothing. I mean, why is he still in the CIA and why does it seem that no one knew what he was doing and there was no punishment for him? At least with other characters we see the fallout - Carrie, Saul, Quinn. Lockhart got fired from the director position. The Ambassador's career was over. But Dar Adal is till running the CIA with aplomb.

Edited October 7, 2015 by slowpoked

[Kel Varnsen]

I was wondering if, in the real world, there might be enough evidence for experts to determine that the "bomber" was tied up when the bomb went off.  Or, if given the power of the bomb and the contained area in which it exploded, it wouldn't be possible.

How much effort would the German cops put into investigating the supposed accidental death of a terrorist? I do wonder how many people like this Quinn can kill before someone, on any side notices? One terrorist dying probably no one notices, but if 5 of them die under weird circumstances, do German officals or terrorist leaders do something?

Also why was Carrie going on about how important it was to keep her security clearance? She left the cia, so why would someone working foe a German charity, need high level US security clearance?

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Let's Get This Party Started
Two years after we last saw her, Carrie's out of the spy game...for now.

[chocolatine]

How much effort would the German cops put into investigating the supposed accidental death of a terrorist?

 

A lot, actually. First, because a bomb going off in a residential building is always a big deal and would be national news, and second, they would scour (what's left of) the terrorist's apartment for clues of collaborators, history, plans for future attacks, etc.

[attica]

Yeah, homicide rates in Europe are really low; a thing like this would be astonishing, and get lots of attention.

[Kel Varnsen]

Yeah, homicide rates in Europe are really low; a thing like this would be astonishing, and get lots of attention.

You're probably right, I was just thinking that once they started finding evidence that made it look like bomber blew himself up, I can see a lot of investigators not going much farther to disprove that. 

Also I am not sure you can compare crime rates and media attention in our world to the homeland world since they are completely different. As far as I know there has never been anything in real life that was like what happened when a car bomb blew up CIA heaquarters, killed a ton of top government officials, and as far as the general public knows was carried out by a congressman who was a brainwashed terrorist. With that plus all of the other crazy crap that has happened, cable news must be insane.

[Miss chi chi]

I love the Quinn box of terror game.  I'd put in Melisandre from GOT!!

[Ailianna]

I remembered how much I don't care about Carrie, but until he was on my TV again, I had totally forgotten how much I love and am interested in Quinn.  As long as he's on the show, I'm in.

[scrb]

There weren't too many eye-rolling moments in this ep.

 

Sure in what alternate reality does a European billionaire risk his life to visit a Lebanese refugee camp in Hezbollah territory?

 

So that he could help refugees?

 

Oh and the porn site guys accidentally hacked into the CIA without really trying?  I thought there was a third party involved but because the CIA and the porn guys were on the same ISIL site at the same time that their streams got crossed and made a mess?

[norask]

I remembered how much I don't care about Carrie, but until he was on my TV again, I had totally forgotten how much I love and am interested in Quinn.  As long as he's on the show, I'm in.

Me too. Love Quinn. As long as he continues to do badass stuff, I am in. I don't even care that his bomb might have injured innocent civilians. Although it was the point though - Quinn and the ones holding his leash don't care about collateral damage. That's how far he is gone. Of course, how his paths will cross with Carrie's and situation will get even worse.

[DrSpaceman73]

So let me get this straight - all those backhanded deals that Dar Adal made with Haqqani was all for nothing, since Saul failed to get the director position at the CIA anyway? So a terrorist who bombed and attacked a US embassy remains free and unpunished and rules the mountains wherever he is in exchange for a tape that was pretty much useless anyway? Good job 'Murica.

 

I don't quite understand the position Carrie is in now. So she's in private industry, but with how Saul talks to her in disdain, she's working for the "other side" now? What other side? Is the foundation the kind of organization that's sympathetic to terrorists? Is it a wikileaks type of organization? Because that annoying chick who itches to publish that document as if she'll die if it didn't get published stat, seems to be working directly under During, not even undercover. God, I hope she's gone soon, she's so freaking annoying, she doesn't get what she wants in that instant and goes off to publish classified government docs.

 

It looks like Quinn's ex will figure in this season too. Promising start, hopefully it doesn't bomb midway like most seasons did.

From how Saul talked, I think by "the other side" I think he meant the German side that was responsible for the Holocaust. My impression is Saul was speaking as a Jew, not as a member of american intelligence, and referring to the company that Carrie works for profiting off the Holocaust and WWII and making most of their money in that fashion. He alluded to that I believe in his comments, though he didn't explain it in any detail.

Quinn is awesome. Seemed to be the only one last year that knew how to do their job and not royally screw up. Can't wait to see what he does this year.

Its an interesting start to the season.

[dwmarch]

From how Saul talked, I think by "the other side" I think he meant the German side that was responsible for the Holocaust. My impression is Saul was speaking as a Jew, not as a member of american intelligence, and referring to the company that Carrie works for profiting off the Holocaust and WWII and making most of their money in that fashion. He alluded to that I believe in his comments, though he didn't explain it in any detail.

 

The dialogue in that scene:

Carrie: The Foundation is not "the other side".

Saul: During's family made a fortune in World War 2 working prisoners to death in their steel mills. So yeah, maybe he's got some karmic dues to pay.

 

Carrie does have blonde hair and blue eyes. Hmmm...

[shapeshifter]

I remembered how much I don't care about Carrie, but until he was on my TV again, I had totally forgotten how much I love and am interested in Quinn.  As long as he's on the show, I'm in.

I haven't watched this yet, and probably won't have time for awhile, if ever, but, if I do, it will only be for the character of Quinn. I quit The Killing after season 1 even though I adored Joel Kinnaman as Stephen Holder, so maybe I can put this show down too. Plus, Sunday nights are really full, and every 3 Sunday nights I have to work anyway.

So I'll probably just be lurking here for awhile as part of my Homeland withdrawl regimen. Heh.

[chocolatine]

Carrie does have blonde hair and blue eyes. Hmmm...

 

Please, that's such a trope. Many Germans don't have blonde hair and blue eyes, and some Jews (like myself) do, and Saul would know better than anyone not to generalize based on appearance.

Edited October 11, 2015 by chocolatine

[slowpoked]

The dialogue in that scene:

Carrie: The Foundation is not "the other side".

Saul: During's family made a fortune in World War 2 working prisoners to death in their steel mills. So yeah, maybe he's got some karmic dues to pay.

 

Carrie does have blonde hair and blue eyes. Hmmm...

But they continued it like:

Saul: But what about you Carrie? What are you atoning for? Keeping America safe?

Carrie: I just want to do good work.

Saul: You're being naive and stupid, something you never were before.

 

So I don't think it's about Saul being a Jew and the Holocaust. It seems like when he meant by "other side", Carrie is now working for someone sympathetic to the enemies that America was or is fighting still. It's like Saul is admonishing Carrie for her thinking that what they (CIA, Saul and Carrie) did all these years - the war, the bombings, etc. - is now something Carrie is ashamed to admit that she's done. And she's distancing herself from it. 

 

What confuses me is that I would think that someone on the "other side", especially someone that seems so high profile, their operations would be more covert, no? And they way the Berlin chief asked Carrie, so what is During up to now, means that the CIA is keeping a close eye on him too. 

[DrSpaceman73]

But they continued it like:

Saul: But what about you Carrie? What are you atoning for? Keeping America safe?

Carrie: I just want to do good work.

Saul: You're being naive and stupid, something you never were before.

 

So I don't think it's about Saul being a Jew and the Holocaust. It seems like when he meant by "other side", Carrie is now working for someone sympathetic to the enemies that America was or is fighting still. It's like Saul is admonishing Carrie for her thinking that what they (CIA, Saul and Carrie) did all these years - the war, the bombings, etc. - is now something Carrie is ashamed to admit that she's done. And she's distancing herself from it. 

 

What confuses me is that I would think that someone on the "other side", especially someone that seems so high profile, their operations would be more covert, no? And they way the Berlin chief asked Carrie, so what is During up to now, means that the CIA is keeping a close eye on him too.

Its not really clear to me what 'side' During is currently on. They are trying to visit some refugeees on a humanitarian effort but its obvious at least one american enemy would not take kindly to them being there, hence Carrie asking for safe passage.

[Pallas]

When the bartered-for and beaten Saul finally put his glasses on last year, while riding at arm's length next to Carrie in the back seat of the car, his moral viewpoint had changed. To Saul right now "the other side" is anyone in any way opposed to total war on terrorism, fought by any means. It's he who has gone over to, if not "the other side," another side. One with a single and piercing focus, which sees any other outlook as, well, "naive and stupid."  

 

The During Foundation seems to represent Western Europe's embattled social-democratic values, which contemporary Germany still publicly and legally exemplifies. The Foundation is a type of new player with the European scene: an NGO fueled by one individual's goals and massive wealth, using publicity to influence public opinion rather than troll for donations -- and in really, aimed well over the heads of the public to the founder's fellow billionaires. Acting with sincerity, risking a degree of fortune and reputation, accomplishing many tangible ends while at the same time, seeking to out-do-good one another.  

 

Saul, meanwhile, has become a "these people" guy, as in, "You're an idiot if you think you can make peace with these people." The corollary to that is, "And if you have what it takes to try anyway, then by god, you're a dangerous idiot. And I should know."

[scrb]

It's still a fantasy that a billionaire would personally risk his life to visit a refugee camp in Hezbollah country.

 

Name one philanthropist in real life who'd do that.

 

It's also a stretch to think they'd help Syrian refugees by writing a check.  Refugee camps don't get an influx of money from private individuals or foundations.  If anything, they might fund the Red Cross, Medicins sans Frontiers or any number of NGOs.

 

He's going to get other billionaires to write checks because he personally risked his life to visit some dangerous shit hole while the rest of them are lounging in their yachts in the Mediterranean?

 

Where does Gansa get this stuff?

[John Potts]

I loved Quinn's rant to the (Senatorial?) committee, because he was right about the US not having a clear strategy I the Middle East. And I liked the (implied) quid pro quo of "Give us intel on your boss & we'll give you the intel you want" with her former colleague.

 

DrSpaceman73 Its not really clear to me what 'side' During is currently on.

 

Pretty sure (give Carrie's hacktivist co-worker) they're meant to be WikiLeaks, or a non-slanderous version of them. And I'm hoping they remain as antagonists, because it's more interesting when both sides are somewhat sympathetic. Of course, given the admitted political sympathies of TPTB, he'll probably turn out to be spying for the Syrians/Russians/Chinese. And on that subject:

 

ElectricBoogaloo Even though Carrie's boss is supposed to be a nice guy with good intentions, he still annoyed me.

 

Yeah, always bugs me when Boss man goes "I'm going to ignore what my security advises but expect them to save me anyway!" At least he seemed to be acting out of genuine concern for the refugees (probably).

 

dwmarch The idea was to make it look like the terrorist blew himself up.

 

Having gagged himself with gaffer tape? It's unlikely the explosion would remove it from his mouth, even if his head is blown off.

Edited October 12, 2015 by John Potts

[Constantinople]

There weren't too many eye-rolling moments in this ep.

 

Sure in what alternate reality does a European billionaire risk his life to visit a Lebanese refugee camp in Hezbollah territory?

The same alternate reality in which a British Baroness runs a family philanthropy focused on promoting peace in the Middle East by funding, among others, an Israeli college attended by Israelis and Palestinians of all backgrounds, and the construction of a fibre optic network in the West Bank (the family money came from selling arms, though, I think, primarily to Israel).  At one point, while investigating some financial irregularities at the college, the Baroness-to-be visited the Gaza Strip in the company of only a driver and a translator.  I don't know if she was a billionaire, and it wasn't even for a photo op, but she was advised against it due to the danger.  However, she went ahead because she felt that honour of her family's foundation required her to go, and she was not just an honourable woman, but The Honourable Woman.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Constantinople

[Ottis]

I thought she was too much. Pushing the "publish" button because the dude hung up on her? And, beyond the bluster, she didn't seem to have any cogent arguments against what Carrie was saying.

 

 

So you're saying she was the perfect Millenial, then. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎11‎.‎10‎.‎2015 at 7:10 PM, slowpoked said:

On ‎11‎.‎10‎.‎2015 at 7:10 PM, slowpoked said:

But they continued it like:

Saul: But what about you Carrie? What are you atoning for? Keeping America safe?

Carrie: I just want to do good work.

Saul: You're being naive and stupid, something you never were before.

 

So I don't think it's about Saul being a Jew and the Holocaust. It seems like when he meant by "other side", Carrie is now working for someone sympathetic to the enemies that America was or is fighting still. It's like Saul is admonishing Carrie for her thinking that what they (CIA, Saul and Carrie) did all these years - the war, the bombings, etc. - is now something Carrie is ashamed to admit that she's done. And she's distancing herself from it. 

 

What confuses me is that I would think that someone on the "other side", especially someone that seems so high profile, their operations would be more covert, no? And they way the Berlin chief asked Carrie, so what is During up to now, means that the CIA is keeping a close eye on him too. 

But they continued it like:

Saul: But what about you Carrie? What are you atoning for? Keeping America safe?

Carrie: I just want to do good work.

Saul: You're being naive and stupid, something you never were before.

 

So I don't think it's about Saul being a Jew and the Holocaust. It seems like when he meant by "other side", Carrie is now working for someone sympathetic to the enemies that America was or is fighting still. It's like Saul is admonishing Carrie for her thinking that what they (CIA, Saul and Carrie) did all these years - the war, the bombings, etc. - is now something Carrie is ashamed to admit that she's done. And she's distancing herself from it. 

 

What confuses me is that I would think that someone on the "other side", especially someone that seems so high profile, their operations would be more covert, no? And they way the Berlin chief asked Carrie, so what is During up to now, means that the CIA is keeping a close eye on him too. 

Thank you for quotes.

I think that the central word for atonement.  Saul is angry at Carrie because she seems to have a need to atone her former deeds which Saul interprets simply as "keeping America safe".

This shows that Saul has nowadays a rather childish world view: there are good people and bad people, and if good people do bad things in order to get good aims, it's always justified. Nor does he ponder that if one does bad things as a rule, not as an exception, one can in the end become bad and/or never get those good aims. 

Even leaving that general question aside, I think that it's quite natural to feel sorry if, even if one still regards ones aim as good, one also caused suffering also to innocent people. Or even doubt if the strategy had been right.     

However, I wonder if there is something behind Saul's anger at Carrie. Maybe Carrie is a scapegoat when Saul is depressing his self-accusations that he was saved in S4 at the prize of the great defeat of CIA and the USA.

Plus, considering Saul and Carrie's relationship, he acts like a father who don't want his daughter to grow up and chose her own lifestyle.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎5‎.‎10‎.‎2015 at 6:31 PM, HollaMcDollar said:

I think there was some justification given; they specifically mentioned how Berlin (and all of Germany) had become a safe haven of sorts for terrorists, hackers, etc., who take advantage of Germany's strict privacy laws that protect against the German government & police spying on citizens- a policy adopted during reunification & mostly born out of fear of what the East German Stasi did to citizens.

From that (in addition to facts like the 9/11 hijackers organizing in Hamburg, Germany), I believe the audience was supposed to infer that certain measures needed to be taken against these bad actors that are essentially abusing & hiding behind German law. Perhaps that is too much to ask of the audience, but I think that's what they were attempting they do.

What audience? The Americans probably react like you said, but as an European I don't like the idea at all. Cooperation is another matter.

As for the German privacy laws, I don't know what they exactly say. But I just saw the German series based on the real events about the Neo Nazis who murdered Moslem immigrants and police couldn't catch them for years, first because they didn't think there was a connection between the murders and when they finally did, the intelligence agency was unwilling to give up their records of the Neo Nazis without a specific suspect. In the end they gave over their information about the Neo Nazis in the specific region after which the police had to go through hundreds of folders - a piece of realism that Homeland lacks. Of course I understand that it's not possible in the show that is basically entertainment, but the German series increased my understanding of the problems irl as each of three parts has different viewpoints: the Neo Nazi murderers, the families of the Moslem offers (they didn't get justice for years and had to live in fear for the next attack) and the police.     

Finally, I don't think that it's only memories of Stasi that influences on Germany but also those of Gestapo and generally the legacy of the authoritarian state that still lived in West Germany during its earl years. In 1962, the Spiegel Affair was one of the milestones towards modern democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiegel_scandal 

Considering this background, I think it's a pity that Homeland's screenwriters didn't even care to take Laura's concern for rights of citizens seriously and her motivations understandable as I believe it would have made a better plot. 

            

[Roseanna]

On ‎7‎.‎10‎.‎2015 at 8:01 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

How much effort would the German cops put into investigating the supposed accidental death of a terrorist? I do wonder how many people like this Quinn can kill before someone, on any side notices? One terrorist dying probably no one notices, but if 5 of them die under weird circumstances, do German officals or terrorist leaders do something?

If not German officials, then the German press.

Rewatching, I find it odd that going around Berlin in assassinating jihadists Quinn didn't bothere to us any secret outfit although there must be security cameras everywhere.

[Pallas]

46 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Quinn didn't bothere to us any secret outfit although there must be security cameras everywhere.

But TV cameras, too...It was probably two parts, the producers want Quinn to be seen, to one part, Quinn no longer cares if he's seen.

[Roseanna]

24 minutes ago, Pallas said:

But TV cameras, too...It was probably two parts, the producers want Quinn to be seen, to one part, Quinn no longer cares if he's seen.

I think it's the producers because even Carrie had rarely used secret outfit, mostly in Moslem countries.

Especially S3 they also called with her mobile phone not only without any code but using real first names.