Caitlyn Jenner: Call Me Caitlyn

[Maysie]

Well, I know next to nothing about golf, and it may be as simple as Cait wants to maintain the challenge of playing the men's tees, which I do kind of understand because otherwise the challenge and enjoyment of the game may be diminished.  And, I'm sincerely asking, is Caitlyn going to be playing golf with her old golfing partners (I'm assuming they were men, which leads to yet more issues of a woman playing with men if this is course has gender separated tees). Ideally the tees would be separated not so much according to gender, but to ability/degree of challenge, which would likely naturally separate the tees into male/female, but allow flexibility for cases such as Caitlyn without making glaring exceptions.

 

It's bigger than golf to me, however. From my perspective, it's feeding into this feeling I get from her that she's been somewhat naive about transitioning and that she's approaching it with an air of entitlement. Sometimes it seems like there's an element of "I've been waiting for this moment for 65 years and I should have it all because I sacrificed for so long." And yes, I'm sure it was difficult to live a lie but the fact is, everything has a price and sometimes you pick and choose what you give up for getting what you want.

 

I think the Ellen segment highlights this dissonance. This is a person who has known for years that she was meant to be a woman, wanted to transition for decades, if we're to believe everything we've been told. The struggles that others have had to deal with regarding gender identity and sexuality apparently didn't even register as a blip on the radar for Caitlyn, despite the fact that she identified as a woman while still living as a man. The fact that fear kept her from transitioning for so many years alone should have been some sort of catalyst for empathy for others going through the same or similar struggles to be seen as humans worthy of fair treatment. But it did not, apparently. And even as she transitions, she's still apparently hesitant to advocate support for people who have struggled similarly to her. And that's my problem with the whole thing. I could give a damn where she plays golf or if she gets any penalty for the car accident but I am disturbed that she can barely muster support for gay marriage because of her "traditional" view. She, more than most, should understand that there are a lot of gray areas and who you are and who you love aren't always so cut and dried. And though I haven't seen it, I have to wonder if her show is more "reality" a la Kardashians and less documentary as sold.

[Kromm]

I'm not a golfer, but it's my understanding that the tees are specifically so men and women can play simultaneously (or if not, then compare scorecards).

 

There's also something called a "handicap" that exists to account for different skill levels. An actual golfer would have to say more if that Wiki entry I linked doesn't cover it all.

[SailorGirl]

I'm not a golfer, but it's my understanding that the tees are specifically so men and women can play simultaneously (or if not, then compare scorecards).

 

There's also something called a "handicap" that exists to account for different skill levels. An actual golfer would have to say more if that Wiki entry I linked doesn't cover it all.

 

I grew up playing golf. Stopped in my teens, but I know enough to help clarify this discussion. Pretty much ALL golf courses and especially private clubs have three or four tees: Seniors, Men's, Women's (sometimes the seniors and women's tees are the same), and Juniors. Typically, the men's tees are the furthest back but all four tees are close to each other. They don't segregate the holes by tee type -- there's just no way that would work. 

The tees aren't separated so that people can play "simultaneously" -- each player takes their tee shot in turn. Beside being dangerous, it would be chaos if people tried to tee off simultaneously. All four groups (men, women, seniors, and juniors) can play a round of golf together, and there are husband/wife tourneys, parent/junior tourneys, etc. 

 

The men's tees, as I said, are typically the farthest back -- the women's tees are anywhere from, say 7-10 feet (and that may be a bit much) forward of the men's tees. Juniors are even farther forward. In some cases, there are separate senior tees, in others, there are women/senior tees. 

The thinking behind this layout is that men typically have stronger upper body strength than women or juniors. Thus, by setting their tees farther back, the idea is that the balls, regardless of who hits them, will land in about the same place on the fairway, keeping the game moving faster (a relative term in golf). Once they tee off, everyone is pretty much equal in terms of upper body strength required to finish out the holes. 

It seems to me that unless and until Caitlyn's body "settles in" (I hope that's an okay way to say it) to the hormones and continues to transition further into female attributes and the upper body strength she had pre-transition naturally weakens, then she should continue to hit from the male tees. If she were to participate in a women's tournament, the argument could be raised that  she has an unfair advantage as a result of the "male" upper body strength. Who decides when that strength has faded? Therein lies the question -- I'm just here to explain the golf tee situation! :-)

I hope I helped clarify this a bit. 

 

*Edited because I remembered that women's tees are often used jointly as senior tees.

Edited September 10, 2015 by SailorGirl

[Kromm]

By simultaneously I meant in one group (vs. segregated groups by player type). I didn't mean people hitting off the tees at the same moment.

[ByTor]

I'm not a golfer, but it's my understanding that the tees are specifically so men and women can play simultaneously (or if not, then compare scorecards).

Yeah, they aren't so much "segregated," it's just that the men's is further back than the women's. I'm sure people who have been women their whole lives who are quite good and like to use the men's tees as well.

Another post was mentioning correct pronoun usage, and it made me wonder about the name Bruce vs Caitlyn. For example, with regard to the auto accident, it happened when Caitlyn had the name Bruce, was the police report changed to Caitlyn? To be clear, my question has nothing to do with gender, I'd be wondering the same thing if Bruce remained a man but legally changed his name to John.

Edited September 10, 2015 by ByTor

[Maysie]

Thank you so much SailorGirl. I can say definitively that my golf awareness has increased exponentially thanks to you and Caitlyn Jenner!

[Artsda]

Caitlyn Jenner reveals her living room and bedroom makeover—designed by Lori Margolis—exclusively to Architectural Digest

http://www.architecturaldigest.com/celebrity-homes/2015/caitlyn-jenner-home-malibu-california-article

[Coffeecup]

Could it be that Cait's show did not get renewed for next season?  On her blog, she said of the future: "Many of you have written and asked what’s next for me. I’m going to take breather for a minute."

http://caitlynjenner.com/2015/09/what-ive-learned/

 

Just wondering if "take a breather" means "I'm going to stay off TV for a while." Damn, I hope so. The Caitlyn publicity has been relentless. Overexposure can backfire on a celebrity. People get sick of hearing about her, just as they are sick of the daily coverage of the other Kardashian-Jenners. I wish the whole family would take a five-year cruise to the middle of nowhere, some primitive place with no Internet access, so the world wouldn't be blighted with their selfies.

[Maysie]

I think a breather would be wise from many angles.

 

Honestly, I think it would have been far wiser for her to wait 6 months or a year before she started I Am Cait. I understand wanting to strike while the iron was hot, however transitioning is no joke for anyone involved. It takes time for everyone - including the family members - to sort through the mixed emotions. It would have been one thing to film a bunch of stuff now, as she learns to navigate life as a woman and then put it together a year or so down the line so that she could offer some perspective.

 

As it was, there was immense pressure on her to perform a certain way, to feel certain things, to act in a certain manner. Cait didn't know what it was like to be a woman and yet she was suddenly in the position to speak for an entire group of people (mainly due to her own actions). I think a lot of people expected her to be an activist along the lines of Chaz Bono, particularly in light of the Sawyer interview. I wonder if after it was all said and done everyone's wondering the wisdom of that expectation. I also wonder if the Ellen interview is at least a little in play here; it seems that Caitlyn showed a different side of herself than what's been presented - evidently a decidedly less sympathetic side.

 

It may be that she needs to deal with the reality outside of her own show that not everyone is on board with supporting her particular journey if they don't feel she's reciprocating. Or it could be that she's tired and ready to withdraw for a while. Or maybe she's really going to go through her "real" transition, away from the cameras (because seriously, I don't know many people that could really go through such a significant life change so very publicly).

[Kromm]

Maysie, As you say, the problem is that she set those expectations herself. So personally I'm not sure how much I can blame the public for having them, vs Caitlyn herself. That Courage award didn't just fall out of the sky and land in her lap, nor of course as you've already noted the insta-tv show. Nor did all the "let's do something / let's fix this" rhetoric. Some time away from the limelight will probably be best for everyone.

[iwasish]

she's filing her paperwork for the gender change/name change. But she's getting threats, so she needs celebrity treatment. Things must be specially handled for her. I'm sure she knows someone to grease the wheels for her.

Too bad all the other members of her community just have to wait it out, no special treatment for them. They'll have to understand that Cait is special, she needs to join her golf club and have the proper documentation for her travels.

[Coffeecup]

Caitlyn's name and gender changes have been authorized by the court.

 

http://www.tmz.com/2015/09/25/caitlyn-jenner-name-gender-change-santa-monica-court-livestream/

TMZ, "Caitlyn Jenner: I Am Woman ... Name/Gender Change Approved"
9/25/2015 8:19 AM PDT BY TMZ STAFF

 

She's official now ... Caitlyn Marie Jenner's name AND gender change was approved by a judge in L.A. Superior Court on Friday.

Caitlyn was not present, but her attorneys were there for the very brief hearing. The judge quickly gave his stamp of approval for the name change after asking if there were any objections. There were none.

 

The judge didn't say it in court, but Caitlyn's request to legally change her gender was also approved. We're told judges typically do NOT mention gender changes on the record out of respect for the applicant.

 

***

 

I wonder why she waited so long to do the official name and gender change? She made the public announcement about the transition in the Diane Sawyer interview back on April 24. I would have thought she'd get the court stuff done by May or June.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Coffeecup

[ginger90]

 

 

I wonder why she waited so long to do the official name and gender change? She made the public announcement about the transition in the Diane Sawyer interview back on April 24. I would have thought she'd get the court stuff done by May or June.

Perhaps she did but the court was a bit busy? Would this name/gender change fall under, civil?

[Coffeecup]

Caitlyn claims Kim is requiring her to war makeup every day.

 

http://www.people.com/article/caitlyn-jenner-claims-shes-forced-to-wear-makeup-every-day

People, 10/02/2015 AT 11:30 PM EDT, "Caitlyn Jenner Claims She's 'Forced to Wear Makeup Every Day' – On Kim Kardashian's Orders!"

 

Caitlyn Jenner is keeping up in the makeup department with the help of stepdaughter Kim Kardashian.

In a livestream video posted on Kardashian's website, the pregnant reality star chatted all things glam with the 65-year-old Olympian – even dishing about the reason why fans may not be seeing Jenner go makeup-free anytime soon.

 

"Now I'm forced to wear the makeup every day," the I Am Cait star revealed.

 

"I am forced because Kim Kardashian told me I got to rock it every day. If I walk out the door and don't look at least good and presentable they're gonna use that shot forever," the ex of Kris Jenner added referring to the paparazzi.

But Kardashian, 34, was quick to respond: "You're not forced, this was a choice."

 

If Caitlyn is ever in need of some makeup advice, not only does she have her very own hired glam squad, but she also has some reputable beauticians right in her own family by the names of Khloe Kardashian, Kourtney Kardashian, Kendall Jenner and Kylie Jenner.

 

"How about we do a tutorial of me doing your makeup and you doing my makeup, and I'll have someone there to correct it," said Kim providing her team's beauty services before adding, "Ha! Caitlyn with a Kim Kardashian makeover!"

 

Though learning how to apply makeup is important, washing it all off is also crucial. Kardashian announced she will soon be taping tutorials on how to properly rinse off face makeup for her many fans.

 

***

 

Oh, the horror!  Wearing makeup every day! *rolling eyes*  Who the hell cares?  Caitlyn has been photographed without makeup before, and so has Kim. The world didn't end. In fact, Kim has posted makeup-free selfies. Kim's right -- wearing or not wearing makeup every day is a choice.

 

How hilarious, Kim filming a tutorial on how to remove makeup! Yeah, the world really needs that. 

[Fostersmom]

I will actually kinda agree with Kim on that one. The pictures of a hot mess looking Kim, Kris, and Cait will always be a big tabloid seller and with what they've turned their lives into, I can see how it would be a decision each would have to make. Do I want those pics out there or not? I know there's days I'm feeling lazy, no make up, hair back in a pony tail, and don't even put my contacts in…. but I desperately want/need something. I make the choice, do I risk going out looking like all shit? What if I run into someone I know? Usually my laziness wins out, but I keep my eyes and head down, and just hope I'm not the biggest wreck out there.

[Artsda]

Was the live stream filmed at Kris's house? It looked like.

[Maysie]

Oh for fuck's sake. On one hand, I get what you're saying Fostersmom. Yes, the paps are on the lookout for any unflattering pictures of any celebrity they can find. And yes, those shots are click bait because it does humanize celebrities and make the masses feel better about themselves. I admit it; if I see a picture of some beautiful celebrity looking like shit or even normal, it does make me feel a bit vindicated for not taking the time to do makeup and hair. I don't know why, but it does. So yeah, there is some "pressure" to keep up appearances when they go out (and it's not just the Kardashians) because they become tabloid fodder when they go about the daily business of living.

 

But a glam squad? Is that level of makeup really necessary? In my opinion, no. There's a middle ground between looking like shit when you go out and looking like you're going to a red carpet event. Neat clothing that fits, combed hair and a washed face can go a long way for someone young; older women, such as Caitlyn, can add in a little lipstick or mascara if they want to look a little less "tired."

 

I'm rapidly moving into a strong dislike of Caitlyn. I cannot shake the feeling that a large part of this transition for her has been about playing dress-up and the ability to be glamorous and beautiful, something she feels she was denied all of her life. I do understand that but I could actually respect it a little if she owned it. To say she's "forced" to wear makeup all the time is disingenuous (Kim is right; it is a choice). It would be more palatable for me if she said "you know, I haven't been able to experience the fun part of being a woman, the dressing up and looking pretty and getting attention for it and I'd like to see what that's like." (if that is indeed the case).

 

Caitlyn's chosen to live her life in front of cameras and is part of a family who perpetuates their fame and cash stream by alerting the paps to every move they make. I feel like there is a way she could strike a middle ground, if she wanted to. I just don't think she does. I think she wants to go glam squad and I think she wants the attention she gets with it.

 

I'm also beginning to wonder if Caitlyn didn't have the ability to go all glam whenever she chooses if she would have made the transition. Chances are she won't really know what it's like to be an invisible senior woman in our society, but I sense it wouldn't be her cup of tea.

[Fostersmom]

I'm also beginning to wonder if Caitlyn didn't have the ability to go all glam whenever she chooses if she would have made the transition. Chances are she won't really know what it's like to be an invisible senior woman in our society, but I sense it wouldn't be her cup of tea.

 

Honestly, I don't think she would have. As horrible as this will sound, would Cait have transitioned if she had to live her sister's life? Off the rack clothes, department store makeup, if she was lucky to be able to afford something more than drugstore, a haircut every six weeks that never looks as good as when the hairdresser does it, and no glam squad or team of assistants to do every single thing for her; I just don't see it . Not at this point of her life. Maybe, maybe, when she was younger, but as  your average 65 year old down the street? Nope, not seeing it. Not given the personality Cait has displayed and the attitudes she's shown. 

[iwasish]

Honestly, I don't think she would have. As horrible as this will sound, would Cait have transitioned if she had to live her sister's life? Off the rack clothes, department store makeup, if she was lucky to be able to afford something more than drugstore, a haircut every six weeks that never looks as good as when the hairdresser does it, and no glam squad or team of assistants to do every single thing for her; I just don't see it . Not at this point of her life. Maybe, maybe, when she was younger, but as  your average 65 year old down the street? Nope, not seeing it. Not given the personality Cait has displayed and the attitudes she's shown. 

Take away the glam squad and we still have the personal assistants to get the outfits ready and help her dress, keep her company up in that lonely house, deliver her Starbucks, listen to the pissing and moaning about how her kids are ignoring her and generally being at her beck and call to "do this" " get that"

 "find me this" " etc.  

 

I'd still rather have her sister's life.

 

Interesting that KIm is so much more interested in her step father now than she ever was before.  I suspect it has a lot to do with the added press she can garner for herself what with the selfies she takes with her and the livestreaming on her website. She even wants to make Cait a character on her App. I wonder if Cait was on it as her previous incarnation.

[Coffeecup]

Honestly, I don't think she would have. As horrible as this will sound, would Cait have transitioned if she had to live her sister's life? Off the rack clothes, department store makeup, if she was lucky to be able to afford something more than drugstore, a haircut every six weeks that never looks as good as when the hairdresser does it, and no glam squad or team of assistants to do every single thing for her; I just don't see it . Not at this point of her life. Maybe, maybe, when she was younger, but as  your average 65 year old down the street? Nope, not seeing it. Not given the personality Cait has displayed and the attitudes she's shown. 

I don't know. If Cait had always felt she was a woman, probably she would have made the transition even if she were a regular middle-class person. But she isn't "regular." She's rich and was already famous. Her way of transitioning was the luxury class way because that's what she's used to. I doubt she knows much about the way her lower-income sister lives. In that aspect she reminds me of Kris Kardashian, who seems to be the opposite of her sister Karen Houghton. Karen doesn't bother with plastic surgery or the glamour lifestyle. Kris is all about looking as young and sexy as possible. Karen doesn't give a shit. She's chosen to age normally, and she doesn't seem to be out desperately chasing a buck every minute of the day like Kris does. I'm sure she lives a far more modest lifestyle than Kris. 

 

There are problems with the image Cait is tying to project because of her age. All the plastic surgery, Botox, makeup and hair extensions in the world just can't magically make a 65-year-old woman into a beautiful, sexy glamour queen. Her "coming-out" photo on the Vanity Fair cover was what we older folks used to call a cheesecake photo, designed to emphasize sex appeal. (Male equivalent is the beefcake photo.)  She could have posed for that cover in a beautiful, elegant dress, like the one she wore to the ESPY awards, but instead she chose to wear the revealing bustier and underpants. That photo didn't say "Look at how I've transitioned into a woman." It said "Look at how sexy I am."

 

It seems to be all about looks with Caitlyn. I guess she and Kris had more in common than I thought. They are obsessed with surface appeal, and obsessed with what kinds of pictures the paparazzi take. They're always thinking, "How fabulous do I look? Do I have on enough false eyelashes? Is my hair perfect? Are they shooting the photos from a good angle? Did I remember to tell the Daily Mail reporter which designer label is in my outfit?"

 

As for Kim including Caitlyn in so many publicity things, well, that means Kim is up to something. She never struck me as being all that devoted to her stepfather. She must have some financial incentive to be doing this, some mutually beneficial deal with Cait. Nobody in that family does anything without a price tag involved.

[millennium]

I'm rapidly moving into a strong dislike of Caitlyn. I cannot shake the feeling that a large part of this transition for her has been about playing dress-up and the ability to be glamorous and beautiful, something she feels she was denied all of her life. I do understand that but I could actually respect it a little if she owned it. To say she's "forced" to wear makeup all the time is disingenuous (Kim is right; it is a choice). It would be more palatable for me if she said "you know, I haven't been able to experience the fun part of being a woman, the dressing up and looking pretty and getting attention for it and I'd like to see what that's like." (if that is indeed the case).

 

 

Some crossdressers get off (literally) on the idea of being "forced" to wear women's clothes, make-up, etc.   The fetish is called "forced feminization."   The classic scenario has an unwitting male forced to dress and behave as a woman by a dominant female, usually older, more powerful or sexually intimidating.   It is the most common theme in transvestite erotica.   Psychologists think the fantasy is a coping mechanism that allows a man to absolve himself of the guilt that accompanies the urge to crossdress, i.e., It's not my choice, she's forcing me to do it.

 

It was the very first thing I thought of when I read the quote.   I find it no coincidence that Jenner chose to use the word "forced."

Edited October 6, 2015 by millennium

[Artsda]

Caitlyn's announced a speaking tour.

http://www.eonline.com/news/708569/caitlyn-jenner-going-on-speaking-tour-titled-up-close-and-personal-get-the-details

[Coffeecup]

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/i-am-cait-season-2-caitlyn-jenner-1201616248/

Variety, Oct 22, 2015, "Caitlyn Jenner’s ‘I Am Cait’ Renewed by E! for Season 2"

 

So she got another season. I'm surprised, because they kept griping about the low ratings for the first season.

[GaT]

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/i-am-cait-season-2-caitlyn-jenner-1201616248/

Variety, Oct 22, 2015, "Caitlyn Jenner’s ‘I Am Cait’ Renewed by E! for Season 2"

 

So she got another season. I'm surprised, because they kept griping about the low ratings for the first season.

It's probably a package deal with the Ks

[Artsda]

Caitlyn Jenner Named One of Glamour's Women of the Year

 

http://www.glamour.com/inspired/women-of-the-year/2015/caitlyn-jenner

[Coffeecup]

Caitlyn Jenner Named One of Glamour's Women of the Year

 

http://www.glamour.com/inspired/women-of-the-year/2015/caitlyn-jenner

Oh, barf. What's her next award going to be, the Presidential Medal of Freedom?

[mwell345]

I'm over Caitlyn.

I never thought she deserved the Arthur Ashe award, and I certainly can't believe that Glamour Magazine could not find any other woman to honor as woman of the year.

You know what Glamour? If you want to give the award to a transgender, that's fine - but how about someone who transitioned without the support and financial resources of Caitlyn? I would respect that much more.

Edited October 30, 2015 by OnceSane

[DollEyes]

Amen to that, mwell345. There are plenty of transgender women, such as Laverne Cox, who IMO are much better suited for "Woman Of the Year" than Caitlyn Jenner.

Edited October 31, 2015 by DollEyes

[Maysie]

Is she THE woman of the year or one of the WOMEN of the year? Because I can see where she'd be one of a collection of notable women for 2015. While I don't have much use for her and am pretty much over her too, her transition has called a lot of attention to the transgender community. I love me some Laverne Cox and agree that she's a better role model (if that's what you're looking for for that particular movement), but it's hard to deny that transitioning from a famous Olympic athlete (albeit, the world's best athlete as he was known at the time) to a woman is noteworthy.

 

I don't have much more to add about why I'm over Caitlyn or about what kind of ambassador she is for the movement; choosing her simply on those merits is weak, in my opinion. But if it's about generating discussion, then I have to admit she has done that in a way that Laverne Cox has not (was she even famous pre-transition? I don't know and am sincerely asking that question. Seems she's famous more for her work than being a star who transitioned, a la Caitlyn and Chaz).

 

I look at it similarly to Time's Person of the Year, which isn't necessarily a compliment.

 

Edited to add: I haven't read the story so I don't know if it's a fawning puff piece or what it's slant is . . .

Edited October 31, 2015 by Maysie

[princelina]

Honestly, I don't think she would have. As horrible as this will sound, would Cait have transitioned if she had to live her sister's life? Off the rack clothes, department store makeup, if she was lucky to be able to afford something more than drugstore, a haircut every six weeks that never looks as good as when the hairdresser does it, and no glam squad or team of assistants to do every single thing for her; I just don't see it . Not at this point of her life. Maybe, maybe, when she was younger, but as  your average 65 year old down the street? Nope, not seeing it. Not given the personality Cait has displayed and the attitudes she's shown. 

Hi - just catching up here and this made me laugh with a visual of Cait in a housedress or pants suit and a little gray perm :)

[Kromm]

Is she THE woman of the year or one of the WOMEN of the year? Because I can see where she'd be one of a collection of notable women for 2015. While I don't have much use for her and am pretty much over her too, her transition has called a lot of attention to the transgender community. I love me some Laverne Cox and agree that she's a better role model (if that's what you're looking for for that particular movement), but it's hard to deny that transitioning from a famous Olympic athlete (albeit, the world's best athlete as he was known at the time) to a woman is noteworthy.

 

I don't have much more to add about why I'm over Caitlyn or about what kind of ambassador she is for the movement; choosing her simply on those merits is weak, in my opinion. But if it's about generating discussion, then I have to admit she has done that in a way that Laverne Cox has not (was she even famous pre-transition? I don't know and am sincerely asking that question. Seems she's famous more for her work than being a star who transitioned, a la Caitlyn and Chaz).

 

I look at it similarly to Time's Person of the Year, which isn't necessarily a compliment.

 

Edited to add: I haven't read the story so I don't know if it's a fawning puff piece or what it's slant is . . .

This sudden magical expansion of Woman of the Year to "Women of the Year" was precisely because they wanted the press from picking Caitlyn, but with a built-in excuse that protected them from accusations that they might be honoring someone inappropriate (because she's just "one of many", thus they can't be accused of shorting someone else). This was both about dodging what a crap person she is, as well as the brouhahaha with uber-Feminist Germaine Greer insisting Caitlyn isn't a woman.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Kromm

[princelina]

Actually I believe Glamour always does Women of the Year.

[Veronique Bette]

Actually I believe Glamour always does Women of the Year.

You're right; and last year one of the honorees was Laverne Cox.

[GaT]

Husband of 9/11 hero sends award back over Caitlyn Jenner

[Maysie]

Well, as much as I don't really like Caitlyn, I applaud Glamour for sticking by its guns. For one, Cait is one of a variety of women honored. And another, the husband is still referring to her as a man, as Bruce, etc. Of course he's not going to understand anything transgender. I think she did a brave thing; I just wish all the extra accolades would have waited a bit beyond the transition.

[Artsda]

Khloe talking about the transition on Ellen. Surprised they didn't use talking about  Lamar as a promo clip to release.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/11/16/khloe-kardashian-caitlyn-jenner-transition-ellen

[millennium]

The reaction to Jenner's award on Glamour's Facebook page has vehemently negative for the past two weeks, with many of the protests posted by women:

 

https://www.facebook.com/glamour/

 

The page says there are 154 comments but they must be archiving them (I'm not on Facebook, so I don't know how it works) or wiping the comments on a daily basis.    The 154 comments appear to have been posted in only the last four hours.   There have been literally thousands of extremely angry remarks since the first of the month.

 

This is just my suspicion, but I think the protest isn't primarily about the fact that a transgender person was chosen to be honored, but rather who this particular transgender person is.

[millennium]

Husband of 9/11 hero sends award back over Caitlyn Jenner

 

I don't blame the husband.   His wife, a police officer, rushed into the south tower on 9/11 and was working to rescue people when she died.

 

Giving the same "Women of the Year" honor to Jenner -- whose only accomplishments as a transgender person have been rebooting her celebrity and replenishing her bank account (not to mention that Jenner played a pivotal role in sending another woman to her death earlier this year) -- strips the Glamour award of all meaning.   

 

Maybe the award was more genuine back in 2001, I don't know.   But today it's clear -- the Glamour Women of the Year award is just a promotional gimmick intended to sell more magazines.

Edited November 17, 2015 by millennium

[Kromm]

The reaction to Jenner's award on Glamour's Facebook page has vehemently negative for the past two weeks, with many of the protests posted by women:

 

https://www.facebook.com/glamour/

 

The page says there are 154 comments but they must be archiving them (I'm not on Facebook, so I don't know how it works) or wiping the comments on a daily basis.    The 154 comments appear to have been posted in only the last four hours.   There have been literally thousands of extremely angry remarks since the first of the month.

 

This is just my suspicion, but I think the protest isn't primarily about the fact that a transgender person was chosen to be honored, but rather who this particular transgender person is.

I have to think it's both.  There are going to be a shit ton of transphobes screaming about it, just because it's what they do.

THEN there will be plenty of people who just despise the Politically Correct nature of giving any "of the year" award to someone who's a total asshole.

 

The problem is that people militantly defending Jenner will act like it's always the first situation, and people who are fed up with Caitlyn Jenner being lauded or tired of hearing about this may assume it's always the second.

[millennium]

I have to think it's both.  There are going to be a shit ton of transphobes screaming about it, just because it's what they do.

THEN there will be plenty of people who just despise the Politically Correct nature of giving any "of the year" award to someone who's a total asshole.

 

The problem is that people militantly defending Jenner will act like it's always the first situation, and people who are fed up with Caitlyn Jenner being lauded or tired of hearing about this may assume it's always the second.

 

Wait until TIME gives her "Person of the Year."    I hope it doesn't happen, but I wouldn't bet against it.

[Kromm]

Wait until TIME gives her "Person of the Year."    I hope it doesn't happen, but I wouldn't bet against it.

In a way that would be good. Why?  Because it would clarify the hypocrisy beyond this whole false "don't give a fake woman an award for being a woman" BS. It would clarify the issue that she was being honored not for what she's done, but because of who she is. A repugnant message to send.

 

Then again, arguably the ESPY Courage Award should have done the same thing... other than the fact that maybe people weren't ready to admit what a total shit Caitlyn Jenner is. The fires of politically correct Rah-Rahness were too strong at that point and overrode any actual observation of who it was being handed on a silver platter to.

[millennium]

If I read you correctly, you're saying that transphobic protests are obfuscating the more substantive objection -- that Caitlyn Jenner doesn't deserve an award for simply being Caitlyn Jenner -- and that this objection is not receiving the attention it deserves because Jenner's defenders are dismissing ALL criticism as transphobia. 

 

I don't know how Jenner winning the TIME award would distinguish the two.   Again, the howls of protest would be conveniently written off as transphobia without anyone daring to probe deeper because of the risk of backlash.

[Maysie]

Well, with everything that's happening in the world right now, I think Time may go to a more political "person of the year," perhaps even naming ISIS or some such symbolic thing (it's named "whistleblowers," "scientists," "peacemakers," etc). If it's Caitlyn, and that's a big if, it will open the door to the discussion that Time's Person of the Year is not necessarily an honor. It's an acknowledgement of someone who changed/influenced the world for "better or worse." That's how you get the likes of Hitler and Stalin on the cover.

 

She may get the cover, and if she does, my guess is that it will be a more in-depth treatment of Caitlyn and her impact on the trans movement -- and there is no denying her impact. Like or dislike, she helped spawn a discussion about the movement in a way other trans people have not been able to do. I don't know if that was ever her intent (I doubt it) or if it became a profitable way to make some lemonade out of the batch of lemons most trans people get served up in the process. Personally, I think if we're going for a cultural change, something highlighting the acceptance of gay marriage and the supreme court decision supporting it would be more appropriate. In my opinion, that greater acceptance has made it much easier for the Caitlyns, Chazs, Lavernes of the world.

 

The possibilities seem endless. How Time chooses in a year that had Caitlyn, Trump, Bernie Sanders, Black Lives Matter, ISIS and the acceptance of gay marriage is mind boggling. When I look at that list, Cait is at the very bottom of that pack. I guess it depends on how many magazines Time wants to sell (says the cynical me).

[millennium]

Well, with everything that's happening in the world right now, I think Time may go to a more political "person of the year," perhaps even naming ISIS or some such symbolic thing (it's named "whistleblowers," "scientists," "peacemakers," etc). If it's Caitlyn, and that's a big if, it will open the door to the discussion that Time's Person of the Year is not necessarily an honor. It's an acknowledgement of someone who changed/influenced the world for "better or worse." That's how you get the likes of Hitler and Stalin on the cover.

 

She may get the cover, and if she does, my guess is that it will be a more in-depth treatment of Caitlyn and her impact on the trans movement -- and there is no denying her impact. Like or dislike, she helped spawn a discussion about the movement in a way other trans people have not been able to do.

 

I don't agree that getting people talking is necessarily a good thing.    The Paris attacks got people talking about Syrian refugees this week.

 

IMHO, Caitlyn Jenner does nothing to improve the public's perception of transgender individuals.   She's a vain, famewhoring celebrity who appears to have little concern or regard for anyone but herself.   Toss in the maddening factor that no one in the media or popular culture is allowed to speak critically of her (or else risk a personal/financial/career backlash) -- and the perception that she got away with killing a woman with her car -- and it only ratchets up the public's resentment of her, and by association, all transgender individuals.

 

I keep hearing the "getting people talking" phrase in discussions about Jenner.    But is talking necessarily a good thing if the person in question is leading people to negative opinions they might not have formed otherwise?  In my opinion as someone who is  transgender, Caitlyn Jenner may be causing conversations, but in many instances the resulting discourse is not good, substantial or productive.   In the long run, I suspect Jenner will do us more harm than good.

[Maysie]

I don't believe Caitlyn is a great choice for the face of transgenderism for the reasons you state millennium. But I do believe that overall, conversation is a good thing because it offers the chance to dispel myths and provide factual information. Of course, there has to be a lot of conditions in that: the participants need to have an open mind, be respectful of differing opinions, willing to concede a point, etc. Transgenderism is one of those topics where many people have already formed strong opinions; Jenner may serve only to reinforce those opinions, negatively or positively. For the people who don't have an opinion, or are soft in what they believe, I can see the concern that Caitlyn is serving up a wretched example. However, it's the opportunity for positive role models to emerge, too. When people lament the poor example Caitlyn makes, she's often compared to a much more positive alternative.

 

Like you said, the attacks have prompted the discussion about the Syrian refugees. In response to the inevitable reaction to shut down the borders, people have begun to post the other side to that, including some very disturbing and moving images of the children that are among those refugees. That's way off topic here, but it goes to broader point: when there's discussion, there's always an opportunity for the other side, good or bad.

 

My personal belief is that the people who are deeply offended by transgenderism only see Caitlyn as a "see, I told you so!" kind of thing. I think the people who are more accepting will be able to see past her weaknesses and not paint the population with such a broad brush. My hope is that the people who simply don't know are opening their eyes and minds to explore the movement beyond what one person is.

 

As for the guy who returned his wife's Glamour Woman of the Year award, it wouldn't have mattered if it had been Caitlyn, Laverne Cox or another woman representing the trans movement. He was offended by the idea, not the person representing it, in my opinion. And I don't think a more suitable choice or anything else would ever change his mind on that score.

[Kromm]

The "conversation starter" argument only works in my opinion when barbs are allowed (by the culture) to be tossed at the asshole examples. But that's not the culture we're in. While a lot has leaked through, the knee-jerk still seems to accuse and villainize people for breaking ranks more than allow it of the asshole themselves. 

 

The returning the award thing does seem to me like it was more about transphobia. Because really a more reasonable action is simply to write a blog or do an interview complaining about what an unworthy shit Jenner is and never even mention her gender status. Mentioning it targets the issue far more than is/was necessary. There are legitimate points perhaps to be had about how Caitlyn Jenner's past as Bruce inherently shielded her from things a born woman has to suffer, but I doubt that had anything to do with that award going back. "Jesus" likely fits in there somewhere a lot closer than any more factual argument.

[millennium]

As for the guy who returned his wife's Glamour Woman of the Year award, it wouldn't have mattered if it had been Caitlyn, Laverne Cox or another woman representing the trans movement. He was offended by the idea, not the person representing it, in my opinion. And I don't think a more suitable choice or anything else would ever change his mind on that score.

 

I got a different impression.   I think he was angered that the honor his deceased wife received was diminished by Glamour handing the same award to someone who has done absolutely nothing except parade around in designer clothes, pose for pictures, and improve her own net worth.

 

The undertone of transphobia -- which I don't see as transphobia but rather as him expressing a viewpoint many people hold, a viewpoint I believe they're entitled to hold AND express -- sounded to me more like a by-product of his overall anger at the situation. 

 

While I'm on the topic, why is disagreement immediately interpreted as phobic?   People can have a legitimate dislike about anything without it necessarily being related to fear.    There are many aspects of life that I don't like -- does that mean I have a phobia of them all?   Or any of them?   Of course not.   Why discount the possibility that people can look at a situation like this and decide for themselves whether they like it or not without fear ever entering the equation?

Edited November 18, 2015 by millennium

[Shangrilala]

She won't get time person of the year.

She will, however, be 1 of people's most beautiful people, maybe even the cover. Mark my words.

[Shangrilala]

Ok, I'm going to say something about Caitlyn that is probably going to result in my receiving tons of hate mail. I find myself starting at her pictures, strangely fascinated, and not in a good way. For one, her face doesn't match her neck. Her face is so much younger than the rest of her it's jarring. Then she has traces of Bruce left but also looks like Kendall sort of but not really. Her body is better than most 20 year olds but she's in her 60s. It's like I'm watching somebody play reverse dress up. And I think it's impossible to view Caitlyn through a single lens, you have to consider her environment and what helped shape her femininity. And that means 20+ years of being surrounded by girls and women who look completely different than their original version, who use plastic surgery to adjust their looks to their liking on any given day, and the whole thing is just very....bizarre. I find myself dissecting a photo of Caitlyn with the same reaction that I have to a photo of made up Kylie. I think if Caitlyn wanted to transition, good for her. But I feel like what has been created for her is not...real. That's the only way I know how to describe this.

[kokapetl]

I think Caitlyn really benefits from being able to wear makeup. Bruce kind of looked like a burn victim, but Caitlyn doesn't.