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Diane vs Rebecca

ari333

By ari333
in Cheers [V]

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BizBuzz

BizBuzz

I remember actually being angry and almost refusing to watch the opening episode with Kirstie. Boy, am I glad I reconsidered. It's almost as if we had two separate series and both had their great points. It's hard to choose between the two. I love and not so much love both at times.

I am also a Fraiser fan and found it interesting the Shelly reprised her role in that series and Kirstie didn't. Gives a little more points to Shelly in my book.

  • Love 2
RedZoneTuba

RedZoneTuba

Count me in the Diane camp.  I loved the show in the early seasons but basically stopped watching after a year or two of Rebecca.  It wasn't so much Kirstie's fault in my opinion, but it seemed like the Rebecca character really deteriorated over time.  She started out being a driven and intelligent career woman who had a few "issues", and then devolved into a pathetic, one-note cartoon caricature of a gold-digging loser.  Her constant whining and mooning after whatever powerful man was her boss got old pretty fast for me.

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Inquisitionist

Inquisitionist

Boy, am I glad I reconsidered. It's almost as if we had two separate series and both had their great points.

 

I've been watching some of the Rebecca seasons recently and enjoying them much more than I had anticipated.  It really is a matter of adjusting expectations.  Kelsey Grammer just got better and better, even as Frasier became more pathetic.  I should hate the way he rags on about Lilith, but somehow I buy it from Kelsey.

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cpcathy

cpcathy

I was quite disappointed when Shelley left, I just didn't get why you leave a successful show that way! I understand the need for a character other than a waitress for the bar, and why the Charles brothers needed someone to be in charge of Sam in order for tension to be created. It was indeed a different show with Kirstie, and lord knows the cast probably preferred her over Shelley (from the rumors we've heard that she was a handful). I feel the show got more loosy goosy with Kirstie, and wasn't the well oiled machine it was the first five years. I am a Sam-Diane shipper, so I did miss that aspect. Ted and Kirstie really seemed more like brother and sister, lookswise, rather than potential love interests. I'm glad they backed off that idea and made them really good friends.

 

In case you didn't guess, I'm in the Diane camp.

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Inquisitionist

Inquisitionist

I don't think I saw any of the last season except the 3-part finale when it originally aired.  I've just watched it on Netflix for the first time, and found that I enjoyed many of the episodes very much.  The stand-outs, for me, included Daddy's Middle-Aged Girl (with the always-great Robert Prosky as Rebecca's father) and Look Before You Sleep, with Sam becoming increasingly desperate for a night's rest.  The season also had some surprisingly tender and emotional scenes between various characters that felt very authentic to me.  Glad I finally caught up!

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WendyCR72

WendyCR72

I have heard that Shelley Long could be difficult. But as easily as Kirstie Alley's Rebecca managed to fit in, to me, there'd be no show for her to fit into if not for Sam and Diane (and, yes, Cliff, Norm, Carla, etc.) putting the show on the map.

It was an extreme case of opposites, but I personally think the Sam/Diane dynamic made the show pop.

So, obviously Team Diane here!

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Gulftastic

Gulftastic

The Diane years for sure. I adored the show back then. I shipped Sam & Diane so hard, before 'shipping' was a thing I knew about. I remember the episode where she was in Italy with Frasier and phoned Sam hoping he would be rushing to her, and she got Sam's fake-out answer phone making her think he hadn't rushed to Italy to stop her. Man, I was crushed!

The writing was also better in the Diane era, IMHO. It was still good after she left, but never quite as crisp.

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cpcathy

cpcathy

The producers created the character of Rebecca to be a stern businesswoman, as an authority figure to Sam, instead of a love interest. However, when the scripts played out, Rebecca was not funny enough, until they realized that Rebecca could be a total mess as a person masquerading as an accomplished person, that's where they found comedy with her.

Dee

Dee

I liked both Diane and Rebecca.

I felt Diane was great in the first couple of seasons, especially that first season where Shelley was wonderful, but the writers lost the plot with Diane around Season 3 and never got it back.

I felt the opposite way with Rebecca. It took the writers a couple of seasons to find Kirstie Alley's sweet spot, the earthy social climbing yuppie, but once they finally locked into it, they never slowed down.

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Irlandesa

Irlandesa

On 8/25/2016 at 4:06 PM, WendyCR72 said:

I have heard that Shelley Long could be difficult.

 

On 8/26/2016 at 3:15 PM, Maherjunkie said:

I wonder if post Cheers life humbled her.

I don't think the issue with her was diva-dom.  From what I gather from Ken Levine, who is a big Shelley defender, said that Shelley cared a lot about the show and its quality.  She put a lot of thought and work into the character which was essential for the show's success, especially in the beginning.  Ted has also spoke highly of her and how much he got from working with her.

That kind of focus could rub some of her cast mates the wrong way.  I get the sense, especially in the later years, that they were not as slavish about rehearsal...etc.  Kirstie's personality was probably a better fit. 

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cpcathy

cpcathy

The cast didn't start getting lax until several seasons away from the end of the series, they pretty much all had their characters down, and some were becoming more famous, like Woody Harrelson, and they'd be lucky if they were all there at the same time for rehearsals. When it was time, then to film the final scene of the series, where they all talk about life in the bar, they all knew their lines perfectly, no mess-ups, no retakes.

Irlandesa

Irlandesa

On 1/5/2018 at 10:05 AM, cpcathy said:

The cast didn't start getting lax until several seasons away from the end of the series, they pretty much all had their characters down, and some were becoming more famous, like Woody Harrelson, and they'd be lucky if they were all there at the same time for rehearsals. When it was time, then to film the final scene of the series, where they all talk about life in the bar, they all knew their lines perfectly, no mess-ups, no retakes.

It was at the end of the series when they'd miss rehearsals....etc.  and they did get it done in the end.  

But that looseness likely started in smaller ways early on.  So the different approaches likely caused friction.  

Crs97

Crs97

Here are some comments about Shelley from an oral history of Cheers.  I always thought she got a bad rap and Ted wouldn’t have faced all the hostility if he had been the passionate one.  Warning that it’s a long post:

Danson-[But] I maintain that I got Sam because I was teamed with Shelley. She was really unique. You can't imagine anyone else playing Diane. She was Diane.

Les Charles _(co-creator): _Shelley knew who her character was and had a much surer idea of herself than the rest of the cast. She was able to carry the show in the beginning while the others were finding their way. That's the way it worked: The actors got closer and closer to their characters. Or maybe their characters got closer to the people.

**Long: **In the third year, right before we started the season, I told them I was pregnant. And they were saying, "Oh, well, we could do this, and we could do that, and Frasier could be the father." And I said, "No, I don't think that's right. You said Hepburn and Tracy to us when we started, and I think this should be Tracy's baby." I guess Kelsey had been told that, and he was really upset about it. I talked to him on the phone once and I said, "You know, this was not about you, the actor; this was about Sam and Diane."

Grammer (from his 1996 autobiography, So Far...): Shelley was convinced that Diane and Sam should be together, that it was a terrible mistake to break them up...Shelly's efforts to get me off the show were relentless. I learned after read-throughs she would insist the writers took out every laugh I had.

**Long: **Oh, that's so wrong. He's a brilliant talent, and he was so wonderfully funny on the show. I even watched Frasier, you know? I have no idea how he got that idea other than me speaking up one time and saying, "No, I really don't think it should be Frasier's baby."

It's just a crime that people don't take the time and make the effort to have a conversation if it's bothering them that much. I wish he had said something, but he never did. You know, it's too bad.

**Long: **I'd gotten into a routine of going into my dressing room and meditating at lunch. I needed to rest, just let go of all of it. Because I really felt sometimes like I was physically pulling the plot, and it was heavy. I'm sure it didn't look great that I was going into my dressing room at lunch. I wish I could've hung out with the cast and got lunch. But it's not restful for me to be in a public dining room and eat. It's just not. And I was exhausted by the end of the morning because I tried to deliver as much of a performance as I could for each run-through.

**Lofaro: **The fifth season was when things started to get a bit rough, in terms of managing the show. Shelley believed that she was the new Lucille Ball, and she would spend hours after the run-through talking with the writers about her character and the story, just talking it to death. They would indulge her, but they indulged her to a point where they couldn't stand it anymore.

Glen Charles: Shelley liked to discuss things. It was never a tantrum. But it did take a lot of talking, and I think the biggest problem was with the rest of the cast, because we'd have a reading at the table, and immediately she'd want to talk about it. The normal procedure was for Jimmy to take the cast down and start blocking it, so we could see it on its feet. So that indulgence on our part, I think, created a schism between Shelley and the rest of the cast.

Long: There was scuttlebutt about me talking too much and being passionate about Diane. But I thought, "That's my job. That's what I'm supposed to do.... Don't tell me not to get involved in the discussion."

**Danson: **Shelley's process would have infuriated you if it had been mean or if it hadn't been purposeful. But it was purposeful—it was her way of being Diane—and there's not a mean bone in Shelley's body. I had trouble hanging around her until we stood onstage together, and then I was in heaven.

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Crs97

Crs97

I meant passionate in the terms Shelley used it: that she wanted to discuss her character and stay true to it and make sure the storyline lines stayed true to it.  I contend that if Ted had done so, they wouldn’t have said he was hijacking meetings and being indulged.

Also, Ted at least has consistently given Shelley credit and said she “carried” the show in the early years.  Maybe she was an important reason why the show was a well-oiled machine that became less disciplined after she left.

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Inquisitionist

Inquisitionist

On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 4:55 PM, cpcathy said:

Ted is indeed being very gracious when he says things like that, but I strongly contend that had Shelley been paired with anyone else, we would not still be talking about the show today.

I think he was being honest and realistic.  Ted became a great Sam Malone, but it did (IMO) take him a bit longer to find his footing with the character than Shelley did with Diane, and I honestly think other actors could have played Sam successfully in that first season.   Not sure anyone else could have embodied Diane as Shelley did.  YMMV, and obviously does.  ;-)

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Irlandesa

Irlandesa

On 1/10/2018 at 4:55 PM, cpcathy said:

Ted is indeed being very gracious when he says things like that, but I strongly contend that had Shelley been paired with anyone else, we would not still be talking about the show today.

Ted and Shelley had amazing chemistry.  Fred Dryer was the runner up for Sam and I don't think he would have done as well as Ted did.  But I don't think Ted is lying when he gives Shelley so much credit, especially for the first season or two.  And I don't think it discredits his contribution if we take him at his word that being across from her helped him shape who Sam was going to be.  Ted had worked on a soap and did some episodic TV before he got Cheers.  He has admitted he was nervous at the start.  Shelley, on the other hand, had been a member of Second City and was more experienced doing live comedy.  Of course having a confident, well-prepared partner who understands her character is only going to help him. 

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Inquisitionist

Inquisitionist

12 hours ago, kariyaki said:

It wouldn’t have been Fred and Shelley, though. If they’d gone differently, it would’ve been Fred and Julia Duffy, they had the actors optimally paired up already.

That's true, but if they had paired up Long with Dryer and Danson with Duffy, I think we'd have seen the Long-Dryer version of Cheers rather than the Danson-Duffy version.   Thank goodness it was Long-Danson!  BTW, the third pairing that auditioned was William Devane (whom I've never found appealing in anything) with Lisa Eichhorn, who works a lot in TV but has never made much of an impression on me.  Interesting that both Dryer and Duffy guest-starred in the first season on Cheers (and Dryer returned a few times), but neither Devane nor Eichhorn ever did.

And one more thing: according to IMDb, Dryer is 6'6" and Duffy is just 5' tall.  How would they ever have kissed???  ;-)

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