Magic, Enchantments, and Curses: Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo

[KAOS Agent]

She busted the lights in her hospital room in Phoenix. Emma's magic has manifested outside of Storybrooke.

[Camera One]

So it was such an emergency to get Marion's heart out before the ice reached it.  And even in the animated movie, there was a time rush when Anna's heart was fully iced, or it would have been "too late".  But Anna and Kristoff has probably been frozen for years by now, and everything will still be A-Ok?  

[Mari]

So it was such an emergency to get Marion's heart out before the ice reached it.  And even in the animated movie, there was a time rush when Anna's heart was fully iced, or it would have been "too late".  But Anna and Kristoff has probably been frozen for years by now, and everything will still be A-Ok?  

Maybe it's like flash-freezing vegetables?  They're just better preserved that way?  The instantaneous way it was done made it more like a time/stop/sleep curse thing?

 

Yeah.  Sorry. I've nothing reasonable--it makes no sense.

[Camera One]

So was there a point to Robin and Will being in the library?  Or would that page from the book have just appeared in Robin's satchel no matter where he was?  Did it appear because Regina had hope?  Was it because Robin and Will were looking?  Was the Book's Author emptying out his recycle box of all the garbage endings he wrote?  Why the heck would a Fairy Tale book include the story of Regina and Tinkerbelle's Not So Excellent Adventures?  For a book about "heroes", why is there so much Regina in that book?  If it included such mundane incidents in everyone's lives, why aren't there 500 volumes of text?  

Edited November 18, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

So was there a point to Robin and Will being in the library?

 

I'm guessing there's something special about the library, or what's underneath it. As for why the page just appeared, there has to be some outside force manipulating the situation. It just appearing because Regina is a special cookie or Outlaw Queen is "magical" isn't good enough for me.

Edited November 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[scarynikki12]

I want to know why Henry didn't know about Regina walking away from Robin Hood.  He's supposedly read that book from cover to cover yet he was unaware that his mom turned her back on the pixie dust soulmate?  Given he delighted surprise when he learned that Regina was dating Robin last season, it definitely seems he didn't know that bit of backstory so I object to it being in the book at all.  That should have been one of those things Regina was hiding about herself that was only between her and Tink until she decided to tell Robin. 

[myril]

The plot!plot!plot! convenient magic on this how drives me nuts at times. We're in the 4th season of this show and by now they should have a better idea and world building than what the show actually offers every week, think I can expect that from professional writers. Some fan fic writers are probably doing a better job than this writers room.

 

Found it curious, that Rumple said, when in the shop pretending he had something to help Emma with her magical problems, that the (fake) ancient spell would take away "light magic" (!!) - why was it any important to mention that it was about light magic? Did it matter at that point? Does it matter? Does the hat make any difference between light and dark magic? What is the difference between light and dark magic? Is it about the emotions tapped into, about what it is used for, what the motivation is, by who? Or was it just mentioned, because Emma without any good reason has light magic, because she was born with it, or whatever. Some writers might find it annoying to pay attention to such details doing seemingly nothing for plot or character development, but I think paying attention to such details is part of the difference between mediocre, simple entertainment for the money writing and good writing working on multiple levels. They sprinkle such things like following a list of words and things to mention, but they never really work with these things.

 

(sorry, find it still frustrating, that this show could be even brilliant, but that the show makers seem to be very satisfied with doing just average entertainment money making).

Edited November 18, 2014 by katusch

[kili]

So was there a point to Robin and Will being in the library?  Or would that page from the book have just appeared in Robin's satchel no matter where he was?

 

The author of the book is Dr. Seuss. Touching the "Cat in the Hat" caused the page to appear? Next year's villain is The Grinch.

 

I want to know why Henry didn't know about Regina walking away from Robin Hood.  He's supposedly read that book from cover to cover yet he was unaware that his mom turned her back on the pixie dust soulmate?  Given he delighted surprise when he learned that Regina was dating Robin last season, it definitely seems he didn't know that bit of backstory so I object to it being in the book at all.

 

Maybe the  book was coy about his name. He was just the guy with the Lion Tattoo. A better fanwank would be that the guy we now know is Robin Hood was just Larry the Horse Thief back in the tavern. He didn't get the name "Robin Hood" until Marian needed to replace the real Robin who was killed by Regina - he is just the latest version of the forest version of the  Dread Pirate Roberts. Larry loved the job because he got a fabulous wife, a terrific little boy and to steal while pretending to be honorable. Now that he's met his True Love, he can go back to his natural dishonorable ways.

 

I want to know what the text on page XXIV says. It's probably all about how Regina and Larry had sex in a barn that night and then stole the family's cow leaving the woman that owned her and her kids to die of starvation. Ah, True Love. It is a thing of beauty.

Edited November 18, 2014 by kili

[Mari]

The author of the book is Dr. Seuss. Touching the "Cat in the Hat" caused the page to appear? Next year's villain is The Grinch.

That works--or, considering how much OUaT likes to Surprise! us, the Grinch is the poor, misunderstood hermit who was driven out of the village by the evil sorceress Cindy Lou--who's much older than 4, and has amazing cleavage.

 

 

Maybe the  book was coy about his name. He was just the guy with the Lion Tattoo. A better fanwank would be that the guy we now know is Robin Hood was just Larry the Horse Thief back in the tavern. He didn't get the name "Robin Hood" until Marian needed to replace the real Robin who was killed by Regina - he is just the latest version of the forest version of the  Dread Pirate Roberts. Larry loved the job because he got a fabulous wife, a terrific little boy and to steal while pretending to be honorable. Now that he's met his True Love, he can go back to his natural dishonorable ways.

I really, really like your take on Robin Hood, Marian, Regina, and the Dread Thief Larry. Until it's beyond a shadow of a doubt proven otherwise, that is going to be my new headcanon. 

 

Actually, years and years ago, there was a show called "Robin of Sherwood" that did pretty much exactly that---the original Robin died, and "The Hood" was more of a title.  It was passed on to Robert of Locksley, who became the next Robin Hood.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Mari

[Shanna Marie]

I want to know why Henry didn't know about Regina walking away from Robin Hood.  He's supposedly read that book from cover to cover yet he was unaware that his mom turned her back on the pixie dust soulmate?

Maybe the page only just appeared -- did we see Regina seeing that page when she was moping over the book earlier? It seemed like Regina didn't know what page the new one matched until she flipped to it, and she seems to have been studying the book cover to cover. You'd think she'd have the pages and page numbers memorized for anything that might relate to her or Robin.

 

If this is the case and the page in the book of Regina leaving Robin appeared at the same time as the loose page of them getting together, then it's like the book/author is sending the message of "Yo, idiot, I'm not the one making things happen. You are. There were possibilities, you made your choice, and the thing you did went into the book."

[OnceUponAJen]

That works--or, considering how much OUaT likes to Surprise! us, the Grinch is the poor, misunderstood hermit who was driven out of the village by the evil sorceress Cindy Lou--who's much older than 4, and has amazing cleavage.

Actually, I can see Rumple as the Grinch.....right down to the Santa hat.

[Mitch]

I'm guessing there's something special about the library, or what's underneath it. As for why the page just appeared, there has to be some outside force manipulating the situation. It just appearing because Regina is a special cookie or Outlaw Queen is "magical" isn't good enough for me.

Well, we all know who "lives," under the libary. Let's hope it Malificent who is manipulatiing things and lets hope she has a super cool hideout in the cave similar to the Snow Queens cool Fortress of Solitude. It didnt make sense that whats his face with the cockney accent said that the "clock has magic," as it started up again. It was Emma's arrival which started time in Storybrook, the clock was just the visual that Regina needed to see that the curse was indeed starting to break.

[Rumsy4]

Will has the outsider's perspective. He was not "in the know" about the finer points of the Curse, and apparently left soon after the initial Dark Curse broke. I'm guessing most people in Storybrooke just roll with whatever's happening, without any real idea of the reasons behind all the drama.

[Mari]

It was Emma's arrival which started time in Storybrook, the clock was just the visual that Regina needed to see that the curse was indeed starting to break.

Or the show is doing a master retcon. It wouldn't be the first time they've ignored previous canon to go with what they think is an amazing new idea.

[Jean]

 

I'm not sure he always knew he wouldn't have magic.

He knew by the fact that he was going out to the land without magic. The rules they've set (so far cause you know it can change depending on their mood) is that if you're inherently magical, e.g. Elsa, Emma, Ingrid, Zelena, the dragon Tamara killed, then you have magic regardless. I think only the memory thing was a surprise to him.

 

Cora and Hook both also knew that rule and knew they were going to land without magic. They were both surprised when they got to Storybrooke and learned that it had magic which changed their game plan. That's why Hook wanted to go after Rumple in NYC and that's also the reason why Cora told Woegina she couldn't go after Henry because the both of them would be powerless there.

[kili]

Is it possible that The Hat is a somewhat like a Horocrux?

 

In Harry Potter, the evil that was stored in the Horocruxes (Horocri?) affected the people that held them. Dolores just becomes more evil, but Harry and Ron become grumpy, disheartened and paranoid. Ron in particular, because he is recovering from a major injury, is weaker mentally, or just lacks self confidence, is affected a lot.

 

Perhaps The Hat has a similar affect on the people that hold it. The Apprentice did not seem to touch the Hat during the years he had it. He just swept nearby. Anna is a beacon of lightness, optimism and confidence. She doesn't even fear Rumple despite being warned about how evil he is. She gets engaged within minutes of meeting Hans. She doesn't resent her sister for sending The Marshmallow after her. She cheerfully deals with grumpy Kristoff (after his encounter with the capitalist shop owner).

 

But, while in possession of the hat, she immediately starts thinking the Snow Queen is up to something. She kind of is, but Anna wouldn't normally suspect a thing. Suddenly, she is suspicious and assuming the worst even though the Snow Queen has done nothing more than help Elsa control her powers and reveal the truth about being their Aunt. When she finds out that the Snow Queen is telling the truth, she just gets more suspicious. She never gives the woman a chance and is quick to want to urn her. Where is the Anna that cheerfully went into the woods to convince her sister not to give up?

 

Maybe this is why Rumple is going especially dark. Sure, he is a total magic addict and has always toed the line with being evil in Storybrooke, but here he has gone full on evil and doesn't even pause to think about it. He didn't bat an eye when Hook pointed out he was killing the mother of his grandson. Rumple, like Ron, may be especially affected by The Hat since he's already a little off-ikilter what with the killing dad, being revived, losing his son and a year as a slave.

[Writing Wrongs]

Are they still stuck in Storybrooke and unable to cross the town line? With all the different curses, I can't keep up.

[Shanna Marie]

Are they still stuck in Storybrooke and unable to cross the town line?

We don't know. First the flying monkeys were patrolling the town line, and then the ice wall went up. So they don't know if their memories will be wiped if they cross the line during this curse.

[ShadowFacts]

If Snow cast the second curse wouldn't it be in her mind to have the ability to leave Storybrooke and find Emma?  Of course I am undoubtedly forgetting one of the permutations of this or that curse or memory wipe, but I also thought there was some throwaway line of dialogue at the time the ice walls went up about nobody can leave now, leaving the inference that they could before Elsa iced up the place. 

[Mari]

We don't know. First the flying monkeys were patrolling the town line, and then the ice wall went up. So they don't know if their memories will be wiped if they cross the line during this curse.

 

 

If Snow cast the second curse wouldn't it be in her mind to have the ability to leave Storybrooke and find Emma?  Of course I am undoubtedly forgetting one of the permutations of this or that curse or memory wipe, but I also thought there was some throwaway line of dialogue at the time the ice walls went up about nobody can leave now, leaving the inference that they could before Elsa iced up the place. 

Logically, it should have been something Snow wanted--leaving Storybrooke, I mean--not only because Emma's her daughter, but the whole purpose of casting the curse was to find Emma so she could defeat Zelena.  However, I don't think A&E know yet.  It most likely depends on which they need to happen once the ice wall comes down.

[Camera One]

However, I don't think A&E know yet.  It most likely depends on which they need to happen once the ice wall comes down.

 

Exactly.  If they need someone to leave or someone else to come in, they'll make up some mumbo jumbo regarding how line crossers would keep their memory. Like only those individuals wearing the magical tweed sweater can cross and remember who they are.  If they don't want anyone to enter/leave, they would have the next megavillain throw up some themed fence depending on who they are.  Between the magical door by The Apprentice to magical missing pages showing alternate pathways in the storybook, these writers are blowing up any rules they did create and basically anything can be pulled out of their you know what at this point.

[Faemonic]

Are Regina, Rumple, and Ingrid basically 3-D printers? I mean, Regina can just poof cakes and Apollo bars. Rumple made a replica of the dagger. Ingrid made a giant fake mirror that probably wasn't even out of ice.

I also wonder if Rumple can get like an intuitive vibe of which dagger is fake and which one is real, or if he just as to trust that Hook didn't nick the fake from Belle's purse and swap the real one out of spiteful mischief before things got serious.

[KingOfHearts]

Maybe he put some sort of hidden mark on it? Well, since he can sense magic, he probably knows which is magical and which is not.

Conjuring objects... I can only imagine people wanting to abuse that.

In Neverland: "Lasagna again? Regina, you can make anything. Why not a steak or something?"

Regina: "What do I look like, Wolfgang Puck? Be grateful for once and take what you can get."

[Camera One]

I was wondering how the Frozen gang was going to return to Arendelle.  Can the Wishing Star be used more than once?  If so, that's kinda cheap.  

[KingOfHearts]

From the Spoilers thread interview with Colin, no spoilers:

 

 

"Helga [ungurait], who is one of the producers on the show, sort of maps out what you can and what you can't do when you lose your heart,"

Was she there the day they decided Regina could love Robin without her heart, or pull light magic out? How can Hook still feel love for Emma...? We saw in Wonderland that the Knave was totally apathetic toward Anastasia without his heart.

Edited December 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[HoodlumSheep]

From the Spoilers thread interview with Colin, no spoilers:

Was she there the day they decided Regina could love Robin without her heart, or pull light magic out? How can Hook still feel love for Emma...? We saw in Wonderland that the Knave was totally apathetic toward Anastasia without his heart.

Excluding Regina from this, it sort of works (you still have to twist things around and make a few exceptions though). This is actually probably one of their better rationalizations. Rumple allows Killy to love Emma because it ultimately makes him suffer and feel more miserable due to the guilt and stuff. Same could kind of be said for certain characters in season 1. You'd have to ignore the fact that Regina would never let Snowing re-fall in love, but in season 1 Snowing's love pretty much only added to their misery (the affair debacle, etc). Snow and David still felt pretty miserable the whole of season 1. In general, loving someone (especially during a time where they were cursed) in season 1 only added to the pain and misery they all felt, which would be something Regina would want. Then again, the curse was beginning to weaken as well, and as far as I know, Regina only had control of everyone's hearts due to the curse (except she already had Grahams).

Does anything I've said make any sort of sense? Also, most people probably agree that the characters can still feel some sort of emotion and have at least a little free will when being controlled. The matter of how much and how little tends to be the big problem.

If Rumple could amplify or allow Killian to feel certain emotions that lead to more misery and suffering, things would make sense for Will and Cora too. Will technically had control of his heart all through Wonderland, so he could have easily barred himself from loving Ana.

Regina's the problematic one. Following this new rationalization from the interview, it kinda works for Regina when she was heartless and her heart wasn't in Zelena's possession yet. Technically she was still in control of it? So maybe she allowed herself to feel love, etc?

The TLK and white magic came after her heart was taken by Zelena, right? Still Can't rationalize that at all.

I probably contradicted myself a million times, but That's the best I can do for showing how I try to rationalize it, regarding this new interview. The Regina part is a lost cause to me though.

Edited December 13, 2014 by HoodlumSheep

[Shanna Marie]

I know the heart thing is an officialwank rather than something that was planned all along, but the explanation Colin gave kind of works for me.

 

The two people we know of who couldn't feel without their hearts, Cora and Will, gave up their hearts for the purpose of not feeling anything. Cora took out her own heart to get those pesky feelings out of the way of her own ambition, and she conned Will into letting her take his heart, presumably so he wouldn't hurt so much about losing Ana, but probably also to keep him from being able to sway Ana out of Cora's influence. If Will had continued steadfastly loving Ana and trying to reach her, Cora might have lost her protege. In both cases, the person removing and controlling the heart didn't want the person to feel. I guess once Will got his own heart back, he didn't think to change the orders since he didn't want to feel.

 

But when Regina removed her heart, it had nothing to do with feeling and was about keeping herself safe, and she'd put a spell on the heart to keep it from being used to control her. It's possible that if Snow had let her go through with taking out her own heart and burying it so she wouldn't hurt about losing Henry, she wouldn't have been capable of any of the love she supposedly showed later.

 

It actually suits Rumple's purpose to keep allowing Hook to feel because that amps up the torture and makes it easier to hide what happened. He just loses some efficiency in obedience, since the feelings make Hook drag his feet rather than being a Terminator about it.

[KingOfHearts]

 

The two people we know of who couldn't feel without their hearts, Cora and Will, gave up their hearts for the purpose of not feeling anything.

Still doesn't necessarily work for me. Graham couldn't feel without his heart, and Regina wanted him to feel for her. I'm not saying she could have created love by controlling his heart, but his cursed personality was supposed to like her. The show gave him being heartless as the reason. Regina explained to Robin that she actually couldn't feel fully, even though she wanted to, in 3x19 I believe.

Edited December 14, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I'm still waiting to see how the Magic Gauntlet works.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm still waiting to see how the Magic Gauntlet works.

Regina: "Wait... Why am I only seeing me? Where's Robin and Henry?! This thing is busted, obviously. It's the Author's doing!"

Edited December 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[The Cake is a Pie]

Is it bad that I want Hook to put it on and it leads him to the Jolly Roger?

[Serena]

So they just change what leaving the Storybrooke border does to fit the plot? This "whoever leaves can never return" thing was never mentioned until they suddenly needed it to be so for the midseason finale. Nine.

[KingOfHearts]

So they just change what leaving the Storybrooke border does to fit the plot? This "whoever leaves can never return" thing was never mentioned until they suddenly needed it to be so for the midseason finale. Nine.

It's due to the cloaking spell that keeps outsiders from finding Storybrooke. The cloaking spell was broken in S2 after Rumple brought magic to Storybrooke, but was recasted by Belle in 3A. Curse 2 probably came with it as well. Ingrid probably cast it again later in order to keep everyone away from her and her "sisters".

Edited December 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

It's due to the cloaking spell that keeps outsiders from finding Storybrooke. The cloaking spell was broken in S2 after Rumple brought magic to Storybrooke, but was recasted by Belle in 3A. Curse 2 probably came with it as well.

Well... Emma said it was Ingrid's magic. So it seems likely that Ingrid cast that barrier spell to prevwnt the outside world from finding the town and coming in. If it was merely a cloaking spell. there would be nothing to prevent Rumple or Robin from walking back through the spot where Storybrooke disappeared from view.

[KingOfHearts]

Well... Emma said it was Ingrid's magic. So it seems likely that Ingrid cast that barrier spell to prevwnt the outside world from finding the town and coming in. If it was merely a cloaking spell. there would be nothing to prevent Rumple or Robin from walking back through the spot where Storybrooke disappeared from view.

I thought they were talking about some kind of containment spell, because they said they couldn't leave. I really need to rewatch. Ingrid works too, probably. Maybe she cast it as a part of her deal with Rumple in order to keep him, Henry and Belle out. (As well as everyone else.)

Edited December 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

I've been trying to come up a with a decent logic about why Marian's heart and the spell barrier, but not her other spells.  The only thing I can come up with is that both were part of someone else's magic, as well--Regina modified the ice curse when she removed Marian's heart, while Ingrid modified the town line/secrecy barrier when she put up the Snowdome.   Since both spells were still active when Ingrid died, the spell didn't die.

 

Plausible?  Sort of?

[Rumsy4]

I thought they were talking about some kind of containment spell, because they said they couldn't leave. I really need to rewatch. Ingrid works too, probably. Maybe she cast it as a part of her deal with Rumple in order to keep him, Henry and Belle out. (As well as everyone else.)

I know--it's confusing. But people did leave Storybrooke, so it must be something that keeps people from coming back (for now--lol).

[KingOfHearts]

 

I know--it's confusing. But people did leave Storybrooke, so it must be something that keeps people from coming back (for now--lol).

Alright, rewatched the town line scene. All Emma did was put her hand against the magic barrier and said:

 

Emma: "[ingrid] wanted to be to here alone with you and me. She wanted to make Storybrooke her ice castle, and clearly she wanted to protect it."

 

It was definitely a cloaking spell, but I'm not sure if Emma knew that at that point. It looked identical to a barrier spell. Since Ingrid knew about the cloaking spell in 4x10 when she used the scroll to get past it, she probably got the idea to cook up her own. It's doubtful Snow and Charming cast it in Curse 2 because their main goal was to find Emma, so they had to return somehow.

[HeimrArnadalr]

I've been trying to come up a with a decent logic about why Marian's heart and the spell barrier, but not her other spells.  The only thing I can come up with is that both were part of someone else's magic, as well--Regina modified the ice curse when she removed Marian's heart, while Ingrid modified the town line/secrecy barrier when she put up the Snowdome.   Since both spells were still active when Ingrid died, the spell didn't die.

 

Plausible?  Sort of?

It's certainly plausible, however the only other spells I recall her casting were Shattered Sight and keeping up the ice wall (also freezing Arendelle, but she was still alive when they thawed). Considering that the ice wall was originally Elsa's work, it may be that Shattered Sight is unique in disappearing when the caster dies - once the malice of the caster is gone. Consider that Zelena's time travel spell still worked after her death.

[Camera One]

Everyone was so definitive that if they leave Storybrooke, they can *never* return, so it seemed more than a Cloaking Spell.  Building the entire scenario on that was dumb since it's obvious Rumple will come back.  

 

Hans was frozen by Ingrid just like Marion, and he dethawed just fine.  

 

Oops, I forgot the loophole... "Magic works differently here...."

[Faemonic]

I should really give up on getting the magic system straight on this show, but...

 

Regina's Curse: Cloaked the town except for Owen (and then it worked again for Owen and the cops), Owen's Dad, Henry because Regina brought him in, e-mails and phone calls, Emma, and August.

 

Emma's Curse-Break: Cloaked the town in We Are Both memories, half of which are lost upon crossing town line. Owen/Greg, Tamara, and Nealfire could come into town.

 

Belle's Potion: Re-installed the Cloak Around Town supposedly broken by Emma's Curse-Break.

 

Snow's Curse: Competed with Zelena for memory modification, but Hook and Emma could come in.

 

Ingrid's Border Magic: ??? I thought her power was ice and could even believe she could turn into a snowstorm and disappear like Dracula turns into mist but she used the Force (I guess) to choke Anna and I thought only Regina and Rumple could Force Choke because they're studious magicians and not like X-Men One Power Only mutants so I don't knooowwwww...

 

 

Forget magic! Storybrooke is a parallel dimension made visible by the flux in quantum physics!

[ParadoxLost]

I was thinking, Qutlaw Queen is predicated on the idea that pixie dust can find Regina's true love.

 

So what are the odds that Tinkerbell faked the whole thing to try to help Regina change and not follow her mother's path?  I don't think pixie dust has ever been used to find things except on 'Once'.

[Camera One]

That question links back to why did the Apprentice get so easily outmaneuvered by Rumple and Hook in the first place?  Seemed like a set up to me at the time.

 

Either the Sorcerer is extremely clever and is a mastermind manipulating Rumple's moves from afar, or the Sorcerer will turn out to be a useless idiot.  He seriously couldn't see that the Dark One might use someone else's tears to open the Hat?  Why was the Apprentice so helpless?  He was using a sword to defend himself, when he even defends himself, that is.  Clearly, he wasn't in on the "plan".  Would other people who are NOT the Dark One have use for the Magic Hat?  Since we only saw Dark Ones trying to get at it.  What is the point of the Hat in the first place?  How would the Snow Queen have learned a lot about the Hat?  From who?  Is the Sorcerer's knowledge of the future more clear and powerful than that of the seer and Rumple?  

[KingOfHearts]

Why is it that Zelena can break a protection spell created by the magic of True Love, the most powerful of all, yet Regina can't break her own containment spell?

[Camera One]

I had to assume that Regina was very smart and put in a spell that she herself could not break, but someone else could (thus Emma and Elsa did break it).  

 

Have we discussed in this thread how highly concentrated hatred apparently can cancel out highly concentrated love?  It's like something that might appear in a parody.

 

When I rewatched "Wonderland" this week, the magic stuff stood out as so contradictory.  Cora stating flat out that you can't feel without a heart and being so serious about the laws of magic.  Yet Zelena, her own daughter, managed to make a time portal using a few random items.  Does Jafar know he did it the really hard way?  And wasn't Season 3 and "Wonderland" written concurrently?  What the hell?

Edited January 1, 2015 by Camera One

[Mari]

There were two things that sort of stood out about the Dark Curse.  The first thing was that Regina told Emma in "Going Home" when Emma said everyone was miserable that they didn't have to be.  I'm not sure what that means.  Does it mean that if everyone had enough will that they might have been able to break through the curse somehow?

 

The other thing is "happy endings are not always what they seem to be."

I think what makes the Dark Curse dark are these things:

• You are required to destroy the heart of the person you love the most, thereby (usually) creating a great deal of anger and misery in yourself.
• You destroy a great swath of civilization to do it, as part of curse transportation process.
• You control people's lives and decide which parts of themselves they get to keep and use.

 

I think that third one is part of the reason (Rumple's doing is best to mitigate the damage being the other.) that Storybrookers were miserable, but not in despair like Regina seemed to want.  Regina took away the person or thing that she thought caused everyone else to be happier than she was.  It didn't work as well as she thought, because she didn't understand how you can be content even without everything being perfectly perfect.

 

I don't think they would have been able to break the curse if they each found a little more happiness. I think the "they didn't have to be" was simply Regina admitting that people were miserable because she had deliberately given them lives where they would be miserable;  she'd made sure to give them memories and lives they would find distasteful or horrifying and that the misery itself was not innate to the curse.  After all, when Snow cast the curse, what horrified people wasn't the curse itself--it was that they didn't remember (Zelena's fault) and worrying about being monkified (Zelena's fault).  Snow didn't change who they were, or who they were involved with--apart from Robin suddenly finding village decimation to be audacious and disdain to be bold--the second curse was relatively misery free, despite being the "dark curse."

[KingOfHearts]

 

the second curse was relatively misery free, despite being the "dark curse."

This makes me mad. Snow didn't even intend for people to lose any memories. She didn't technically give up the thing she loved most, there were no fake memories, and Storybrooke wasn't magicless. She didn't have control over anyone, either. Basically anything "dark" was taken out. I wouldn't even call it a curse. It's just a transportation spell.

 

Snow didn't even have to be a magic practitioner. Argh!

Edited January 3, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

This makes me mad. Snow didn't even intend for people to lose any memories. She didn't technically give up the thing she loved most, there were no fake memories, and Storybrooke wasn't magicless. She didn't have control over anyone, either. Basically anything "dark" was taken out. I wouldn't even call it a curse. It's just a transportation spell.

 

Snow didn't even have to be a magic practitioner. Argh!

 Setting aside the ridiculousness of magicless Snow being the castor,  because as you've pointed out--what?  And I haven't figured out the magic in Storybrooke, either.

 

The curse concept, however, is still actually pretty dark.   It presumably destroyed great sections of the Enchanted Forest behind it when it was cast again, required David to give up his heart (at least in theory), and allowed Snow to take over people's lives and rewrite their personality and memories, and to control who and what they were.

 

The only thing that kept that from happening is Snow's intent.  She didn't want to take over people's lives; she wanted (presumably) to save people and escape Zelena.  So while Regina was casting the original curse, it was "Broken marriages.  Separated families.  Drunks.  Loneliness.", combined with what seems to be specific decisions she made about daily lives of some individuals (Graham, for example).

 

The spell's purpose wasn't just transport, it was to allow the castor to remake the people dragged into it into the people the caster wanted the people to be;  that was one of the things that made Pan's recurse so very deadly.  The spell allows the caster to turn people in massive quantities into meat puppets.

 

The only thing that kept it from happening is that Snow had no interest in controlling people or changing who they were;  she simply wanted to access Emma so Emma could save them from Zelena.  (Ha.) In my mind, that still keeps the basic concept of the curse very dark.  How many individuals would be able to resist, once the curse was cast, of at least tweaking the personalities of the people around them a little bit? 

Edited January 3, 2015 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

 

The only thing that kept it from happening is that Snow had no interest in controlling people or changing who they were;  she simply wanted to access Emma so Emma could save them from Zelena.  (Ha.) In my mind, that still keeps the basic concept of the curse very dark.

I don't know if Snow was able to control anything, though. If she did, she would have been able to control Zelena. This possibility was never brought up, so we don't know.

 

 

It presumably destroyed great sections of the Enchanted Forest behind it when it was cast again

Again, we don't know if this happened because I'm sure Regina wanted EF destroyed (minus her castle) with the first curse. That might not have been integrated into it. I'm also wondering about the possibility that the curse's radius was shrunk down.

 

 

required David to give up his heart (at least in theory)

Meh, if he didn't die and there's no consequences to heart splitting then I don't count it.

 

 

The spell's purpose wasn't just transport, it was to allow the castor to remake the people dragged into it into the people the caster wanted the people to be;  that was one of the things that made Pan's recurse so very deadly.

But that's what its purpose was in Curse 2. All they wanted to do was get to Emma and the Land Without Magic. 

 

There are several attributes of the curse that were just not addressed or they were omitted with Curse 2. There was zero punishment or negative effects involved in itself, even if Snow had the opportunity to include so. It didn't even hinder Zelena's plan.

Edited January 3, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[The Cake is a Pie]

Not only did it not hinder Zelena's plan, but we saw later that Regina apparently had the whitest white magic that ever whited (let's just handwave that Regina was never inherently magical and all her dark magic was learned) so Emma was never needed after all and they never needed to cast Curse 2.0 in the first place.