Magic, Enchantments, and Curses: Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo

[KAOS Agent]

Rumpel always told the person that there would be a price. He made deals to ensure that he wasn't the one paying it. What was stupid is that Regina has never had to pay the price. In fact, with the Dark Curse, her price was fixed by something she got as a benefit for casting the curse. The permanent hole in her heart was filled by Henry. In "The Price" Regina was planning to use her own magic to heal Robin. She didn't seem to have any worry about paying a price for that. Why is that? Could it be because Regina never pays the price? And once again, she escaped without paying a price. The least that should have happened is that all of them paid a small price for what happened. Alternatively, Regina should have lost her magic or something tangible such that this show doesn't once again talk about the price of magic and then just handwave it by saying if people hold hands, no one has to pay the bill. At least require them to go dutch and split it.

[Camera One]

Rumpel always told the person that there would be a price. He made deals to ensure that he wasn't the one paying it.

 

It still makes no sense to me.  How does getting a strand of Charming and Snow's hair as a price ensure that he doesn't have to pay himself for the dark magic?  He made deals with people to get what he himself wanted and used "magic always has a price" as a way to squander something out of them.  

[Mari]

It could be that the transaction itself is integral to the magic.  It could end up being something mostly symbolic, or small--the transaction itself is part of what fuels the magic.  If making a trade for the magic means it costs you less, then why not trade for something you want, anyway?  

 

If there's no transaction, it takes it from you, somehow.  Maybe that's how Rumple's heart got charcoaled and crispy?  

[Camera One]

But what about all the times when he did the magic for himself?  Opening the Hat a hundred and one times, for example.  Sucking in The Apprentice.  Killing Tamara.  The transaction being integral to the magic is an interesting idea but I'm not sure the writers thought that deeply about it.

[Mari]

But what about all the times when he did the magic for himself?  

Yeah.

I've nothing on that.

 

Maybe it's a side perk of being the Dark One?  Unspeakable evil and hideous glitter, but all the tiny little conveniences that make life fun?

[KAOS Agent]

I think Rumpel did pay a price for his magic. The way it was shown here, using dark magic causes you to fall deeper into the darkness. Rumpel didn't particularly care about this until it was about to kill him at the end of last season. That's the same price Emma was paying. The problem of then is that of Regina. She never pays a price for using her magic. She stills runs around Storybrooke using dark magic, but she isn't sinking back into the darkness. Regina is pretty much always the one that screws with the show's logic. What else is new?

Edited October 7, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

A&E would probably say Regina is now using light magic and she has been doing so most of Season 4.  I suppose they could say that a normal magical user like Regina can choose the source of the magic whether light or dark but the Dark One cannot... all magic is just dark.  Or simply rules for the Dark One are different, and there's nothing we can say to that.

 

 

 

Rumpel didn't particularly care about this until it was about to kill him at the end of last season.

 

To me, that's not much of a "price" if you can do dark magic for centuries as long as you don't mind getting "darker".  

Edited October 7, 2015 by Camera One

[LizaD]

You know I originally thought it was their pat answer to why Rump was making deals left and right, to protect himself, but it actually doesn't. On rewatch of the clip what he says is the person asking for the magic is the one who has to pay the price, not the person doing magic. When Emma said she'll pay it, which I think she did anyway, he said that's not how it works. So if the person asking doesn't pay the price, it doesn't rebound onto the do-er.

So technically Rump was helping all these people out? Lol is that what they're saying? He's just the debt collector but not the creditor. If he didn't ask for something from these people he made deals with, then they would've had to pay for it somehow anyway to someone else.

In that case I think it does make sense. Everytime someone asks for a magical solution, they generally get screwed over, usually courtesy of Rump. The "all magic comes with a price" sticker is for the customer, not the producer.

Note I think this is how they framed it in show and makes better sense.. But A&E, master storytellers that they are, have contradicted themselves anyway because they have claimed before that doing magic costs something to the person doing magic.

[Camera One]

If he didn't ask for something from these people he made deals with, then they would've had to pay for it somehow anyway to someone else.

 

Some magical users like Blue or Emma would provide services for free, in which case there wouldn't need to be a price.  

[KAOS Agent]

It still seems stupid that Neal dies because of the life for a life price, but Robin escapes it because of hand holding. You can't have one person pay the price and insist that that's how it is while someone else doesn't because of magical shenanigans. Rules are rules and they need to hold. I'm still angry about Snow casting the Dark Curse and escaping the price of that because heart splitting is a thing now. They destroy the very foundations of the show when they do this kind of crap. It's not clever, it's just random magical reasons to avoid having to actually be clever and follow the rules. Snow should have paid a price. Regina should have paid a price.

[LizaD]

Some magical users like Blue or Emma would provide services for free, in which case there wouldn't need to be a price

But Emma didn't ask for payment for services rendered and the Fury came back to get her payment anyway.

But KAOS is right, there is no logic or rules to the show even if they like to pretend there is. Rump didn't get any payment when he saved David cause Neal shut him down and no one bothered coming after David or Emma the person who asked for it.

So the whole "price" thing wasn't set up to explain Rump's deal makings nor was it to clarify a rule. We all know the end goal of the "price" was to establish St. Woegina as the savior.

[Camera One]

I forgot all about David being cured by Rumple from the Nightshade.  Hmm... this is indeed inconsistent as hell.  Not surprising, of course.

 

I think even if Emma had asked for payment, the Fury would have come.  Because it was basically stealing someone from the Underworld.  Thus, Charon on his rowboat.  It was practically breaking a rule of magic not to bring someone back from the dead.  In this case, Robin wasn't dead but he would have been without the healing.  But that was also the case with David and Dreamshade so whatever...

Edited October 7, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I can kind of get past the David/Dreamshade stuff because it was a poison and he was given a cure. Was it even magical? Rumpel was dying of the poison in the Land without Magic. Maybe it was just that the antidote ran in the waters of Neverland, so the only way to access the cure was to stay there. Once Rumpel did some research on it, he was able to recreate the antidote in our world. You skate the edge there, but it wasn't like Rumpel waved his hands and magically cured him. 

[Amerilla]

"Price" can mean different things - sometimes it's transactional (life-for-a-life, you can have your prince but you have to give me your baby, etc ), but it's also the more global price the practitioner pays for using dark magic as their default. 

 

I forgot all about David being cured by Rumple from the Nightshade

 

That was transactional. As in S1 when Rumpel extracted a promise for a future favor from Emma in return for not taking Ashley's baby, he told David in S3 that it was "on the house.... But we are family now, so I'm sure should I ever need a favor, you'll be more than receptive." That's a pretty clear indication that Rumpel viewed this as a normal trade, even if he was calling it something else.

 

I think Rumpel did pay a price for his magic. The way it was shown here, using dark magic causes you to fall deeper into the darkness.

 

I think Rumpel has paid a huge and continuous price for his magic that has little to do with falling deeper into darkness. When he was just a mortal man, all he valued and cared about was his son. He makes a grasp for power to protect his son, and he ends up losing him as a result. He spends centuries manipulating a grand plan to find him, finds him, then almost instantly loses him again, once to a supposed death, and then to one of the show's only "No-Backsies" deaths. He finds his True Love, and he loses her again and again and again and again. It doesn't matter if he tries or doesn't try or actively tries to torpedo what he has..in the end, he's alone. Power and possessions haven't made him happy, they've just made him feel safe. Until Retcon-a-thon 2014-2015, the only way out was death.   

 

The same will presumably be true for DarkSwan: if she stays on this path, she'll lose everything she once held dear. It doesn't matter if her intentions are good or evil, it doesn't matter if she wants a different outcome. And because she's now immortal, that price can draw out over centuries instead of a normal lifespan.

 

They destroy the very foundations of the show when they do this kind of crap. It's not clever, it's just random magical reasons to avoid having to actually be clever and follow the rules.

 

+1000

[Camera One]

I can kind of get past the David/Dreamshade stuff because it was a poison and he was given a cure. Was it even magical? Rumpel was dying of the poison in the Land without Magic. Maybe it was just that the antidote ran in the waters of Neverland, so the only way to access the cure was to stay there. Once Rumpel did some research on it, he was able to recreate the antidote in our world.

 

Maybe, but it's unlikely he didn't use magic of some sort.  It's not like Rumple is trained in how to isolate a soluble antidote from water and somehow concentrate it to the point where a dose would permanently heal David.  

Edited October 8, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

They destroy the very foundations of the show when they do this kind of crap. It's not clever, it's just random magical reasons to avoid having to actually be clever and follow the rules. Snow should have paid a price. Regina should have paid a price.

What angers me is that backing out is effectively making the audience feel like idiots for believing the price would go through. When Belle said it was a life for a life in 5x01, I immediately began wondering who it would be and the tension built up. After the hand holding, I felt cheated. The writers abused such a dire scenario just to raise the viewers' blood pressure, only to cop-out and remove the price entirely. It wasn't a misdirect or clever deception. It was just lazy.

 

Same thing with Snowing sharing a heart. They took the Dark Curse, the founding premise of the entire show, and watered it down. All the drama over Regina killing her own father feels pointless now, as well the emotion between Snow and Charming in that scene. There was no price ever paid because to date we've never seen any consequence to splitting a heart. Magic is supposed to come with a price, yet cursing the entire kingdom was completely free. Where was the Fury then?

Edited October 8, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[LizaD]

They took the Dark Curse, the founding premise of the entire show, and watered it down.

To be fair they've systematically destroyed every founding premise of the show anyway and they did it way before the super cheesy heart splitting crap. Woegina's woe is me drama over killing her dad price was supposedly "hole in heart can't ever love again." Except they took it all back and said she's always lurved Henry so much even without a stinking heart. So yeah its not like she paid any steep price either.

The entire point of the Dark Curse was to get to LwM and lo and behold we now have a million ways to do that, all of them so much easier than what Rump did. On top of that it wasn't even Rump's curse anyway and he had to steal it. Ohand what happened to LwM? It got magic.....by 2 strands of hair from a couple of egg nappers.

[Rumsy4]

 

by 2 strands of hair from a couple of egg nappers.

 

I had to laugh. heh

[Mitch]

Concerning the price or lack thereof...instead of Regina going after the "author," (I prefer to imagine that last season didn't really happen at all but...) someone should have pointed out that her happiness or lack thereof..is because of not only being a balls out bitch, but her use of dark magic for her own selfish reasons.  At least Rump or Blue could have gloated in her face..."Its always going to come bite ya in ya ass dearie!"

[Writing Wrongs]

What I still don't understand is what exactly makes Emma the Savior. I'm also a bit foggy on what exactly the title entails. Is her light magic part of it? Is she still the Savior, even though she wasn't built into the current curse? Why is she a True Love Baby, but not one else is? The show likes to throw the term around and I'm not sure what it means any more. It hasn't really given me a satisfactory answer regarding her powerful magic. That's why I'm speculating genetic involvement.

I think the "Savior" title was because Rumple designed the curse so that Emma would break it. That was it. Why they keep using that title for her, I don't know. I'm not sure why it still applies.

 

I think Rump's magic must've influenced the TLB mix. Otherwise, I don't know.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Writing Wrongs

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think Rump's magic must've influenced the TLB mix. Otherwise, I don't know.

Now I'm curious if Rumple knew about the Apprentice de-darkening the fetus. It's pretty ambiguous if he influenced that. He might have tipped off the Queens of Darkness about the Tree of Wisdom. Maybe he even fabricated it. Isaac could have manipulated Rumple to manipulate Snowing into going to the Apprentice, who would be manipulated by Isaac. Boy did that sound convoluted and unnecessary. (Much like the show's actual explanations for things.)

[Camera One]

I don't think Rumple was supposed to have known about the Eggbaby switch, since he had no inkling that Lily's blood could have substituted for Emma's to make the Ink.  It would have made more sense IF he had known.  As it stands, resurrecting Maleficent was next to pointless.  

[KingOfHearts]

Taking this to the Continuity thread.

[Camera One]

Magic is just out of control on this show, without clearly defined abilities and rules.  I was just thinking about the Blue Fairy and how she encouraged Belle to help since she's so resourceful.  Yet, can you imagine if Blue had gone with them to Camelot?

 

The Prince

 

REGINA: This sword was enchanted to kill me.  My magic can't heal him.  But maybe yours can.
HOOK: No, we can't let her use dark magic.
SNOW: Regina, this was the whole point of your pretending to be the Savior.

EMMA: I don't know what will happen if I use my powers again.
REGINA: I'm asking you.  I've lost love before, and I won't again.  Please.  Save him.

BLUE: No worries, let me do it!  

 

The Broken Kingdom

 

DAVID: Arthur has a way to use that to help Emma.

SNOW: What did i just tell you? We are not giving it to Arthur!  Lancelot said he can't be trusted.

BLUE: I was flying around last night and spying on Arthur and he's a total creep.  Don't trust him.

SNOWING: Thanks.

[LizaD]

What's up with the black and white magic? They made it seem like Emma couldn't access her white magic anymore, even when she's doing something innocuous like saving someone. Now she can use it? How convenient. I can't tell if they just really thought it was cool to see the white and black string cheese together like that, which it wasn't, or it's actually a plot point for later. I saw somewhere that one of the writers and I'm forgetting which one said NOTICE how it took both Emma's light and dark magic to free Merlin. Apparently they explained that both was needed in show, but it was cut for time. I understood that part well enough from the clip I saw. Not sure what explanation would be needed.

 

Also, I'm not sure if this was done on purpose or not but the white blonde chick dressed in all white and the black dude dressed in black makes for an interesting visual when they're next to each other. And I mean interesting in a good way because they look stunning side by side, well more him than her. Thankfully they didn't have the black dude in black wield the black evil magic too or I'd be side eyeing them.

[Shanna Marie]

Non-spoilery bit of discussion from the Spoilery speculation thread:

It's convenient for the writers to forget that no price was paid when Snow cast the curse to bring everyone back to SB in 3B

That one doesn't bother me because it seems like a valid fairytale loophole. She did pay the price when she cast the curse. She truly believed at the moment she cast it that David would die, and she did crush David's heart into the curse. The curse was already active when she came up with the idea to share her heart. Now, they can't use that loophole in the future because it might not work if you go into it planning to share a heart, but maybe intent doesn't matter and all that matters is that it gets the heart of the thing you love most. What happens next might not matter. If Regina had a moment of curser's remorse after casting her curse and decided to share her own heart with Henry Sr., it would have worked the same way. Of course, she also didn't have that permanent hole in her heart from having done so, not that we've seen.

[scarynikki12]

I was thinking about the scene where Emma saves Robin today and it just reminded me of my wish that there were some rules for the magic on this show.  For example, there should be some types of magic that are always good and some that are always bad.  Regina was unable to magically heal Henry in season 2, implying that she was too evil to use such a spell and then successfully healed him in season 4 after she'd started using light magic.  Now we have Emma healing Robin with magic and it's automatically her using dark magic.  Shouldn't healing spells always be considered light magic?  Or, at least not considered dark?  Also, if Emma can use dark magic to heal Robin, why didn't Regina just do that when Henry was hurt back in season 2?  Finally, Regina had the dagger at this point so, if Emma's default is going to be understood as dark magic, then why not command her to heal Robin with her light magic and avoid further temptation to give in?

[Shanna Marie]

Regina was unable to magically heal Henry in season 2, implying that she was too evil to use such a spell and then successfully healed him in season 4 after she'd started using light magic.

I don't think it was because she was too evil, considering Rumple was then the one who healed Henry. Unless it's different for Dark Ones -- they're the only ones who can heal with dark magic? I don't know. I'd thought that Regina couldn't heal because she wasn't powerful enough or didn't have the skill/knowledge. It's not the sort of thing she would have bothered to learn or practice, since she was more about hurting people than healing people. Rumple did a lot of healing of Bae soon after becoming the Dark One, so it seems he bothered to learn. Or else it was a case of post-season 2 Regina, who can do anything. 2A Regina was still human and not yet a Mary Sue.

 

I've been thinking about that gauntlet and how it works. We'd guessed at the end of 4A that the way Belle knew Rumple was lying to her was having the gauntlet show her his weakness, and instead of it taking her to the fake dagger she had, it took her to the clock tower. But that doesn't seem to be the way it worked for Guinevere. Only she was able to use the gauntlet to find the dagger because the dagger was her weakness, not Arthur's. I'm not sure how that works because it seems like the quest for the dagger was his weakness. But didn't Rumple say something in 4A about the gauntlet showing what someone loved most, which is also a person's greatest weakness? In that case, it shouldn't have shown Guinevere the dagger. If it showed Belle her greatest weakness or greatest love, then it would have taken her straight to Rumple, I guess, and then she'd have caught him red-handed, but would she have known what he was up to at the time? She'd have had to watch quite a while to know what he was doing and why, so she let him get pretty far toward killing Hook and let him freeze the others before she stopped him.

 

Or was it really just the fact that he had the gauntlet that upset her, because he hadn't really traded it for her life? That still doesn't work for me because would it really have ruined the foundation of their love if he'd found a way to get it back once she was safe? Was he supposed to leave a valuable and potentially dangerous magical object in the hands of villains just to prove his love for Belle?

[Curio]

Here's the exact wording Rumple used when describing the gauntlet to Belle:

It's a magic gauntlet with a very specific power. It can locate anyone's greatest weakness. [...] It's about manipulation. And for that, you must find one's weakness. And for almost everyone, that weakness is the thing they love most.

 
So with Rumple, his biggest weakness was his real dagger that he had with him in the clock tower because it not only represented the thing he loved most (power), but it was also his biggest weakness because the moment Belle found out about it, his lying and scheming would catch back up with him.

 

When Gwen used it, she was finding Arthur's biggest weakness/thing he loved most, and that also happened to be the dagger. Arthur became so obsessed with finding the dagger to complete the sword that it also became his weakness. You could also argue he loved the idea of completing Excalibur more than anything else, so the gauntlet proved the "thing you love most" idea, too.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

When Gwen used it, she was finding Arthur's biggest weakness/thing he loved most, and that also happened to be the dagger.

But didn't she say something about how it wouldn't have worked for him, that he couldn't use the gauntlet to find the dagger, but she could? It made it sound like the gauntlet shows you your own weakness, not someone else's. Or was that the trick, that it could show her Arthur's weakness, but couldn't show him his own?

[Curio]

But didn't she say something about how it wouldn't have worked for him, that he couldn't use the gauntlet to find the dagger, but she could?

 

She said that Arthur wouldn't think to use it because he thought the dagger would be his strength, not his weakness. So it wasn't a matter of Arthur not being physically able to use it, but rather he didn't even think of it as an option.

 

Edit: Found the transcript...

He would never think to use it because he believes the dagger will be his strength, and this gauntlet...it leads you to a person's greatest weakness.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

She said that Arthur wouldn't think to use it because he thought the dagger would be his strength, not his weakness. So it wasn't a matter of Arthur not being physically able to use it, but rather he didn't even think of it as an option.

Thanks! I forgot that. So now it actually does make sense -- it's not that he couldn't use it, he wouldn't think to, and apparently you can direct it to find something for someone else.

[Camera One]

I didn't like how Merlin could randomly predict the future like knowing that guards will come around a corner.  They can't have him do that one minute and then be completely clueless the next minute.  Again, magic without any rule or reason.  Why did they need to have Charming and Hook rushing in fighting when Merlin could have just gone through first?  Was he setting the prison cells on fire or what?  Why aren't Arthur and his men contained with Merlin's great and powerful magic, eh?  Instead, they need to flee into the forest to do who the hell knows what.  

[Mari]

Last night, the show seemed to imply that it's the Dark One, not Emma who is doing bad things. With throwing Nimue in the mix, it was framed more like possession than simply power. Not!Rumple was already kind of doing that. So are those excuses for Rumple now? Oh, it wasn't Rumple that killed folks... it was the Dark One! He was still a murderer before he obtained the power, yes, but that opens a can of worms. Reminds me of Snowing's eggnapping being Isaac's doing or splitting Regina from the Evil Queen.

When this storyline started, we were told that we would see how choosing the Dark Glop without killing would be different than  usual.

 

Is it possible that because Emma didn't go through the ritual the others did, that the Nimue Glop has more control of itself than usual? 

[KingOfHearts]

 

Is it possible that because Emma didn't go through the ritual the others did, that the Nimue Glop has more control of itself than usual?

And that's another question. How much of the Dark One is just general darkness, and how much of it is Nimue? The show also claims that she was her spirit, still inside Emma. I thought perhaps Not!Rumple was really Nimue, but we see him with her in the same scene. Maybe Nimue was just appearing as multiple Dark Ones for dramatic effect.

 

Didn't Lumiere say the Dark One Vault's was where the first Dark One was created? What did the vault have to do with anything, since the Dark One was actually forged at the Flame of Prometheus? Did Nimue set all that up? Why did Rumple and Emma go there? So many questions.

Edited November 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[LizaD]

 

How much of the Dark One is just general darkness, and how much of it is Nimue?

 

I think Nimue DO was only Nimue but each new DO added in their own darkness to the darkness pool as it got passed along. So by the time it got to Emma, the DO is Nimue plus the 20+ others' darkness combined. Isn't that why Merlin was being all like you'll be the darkest DO ever? Cause she has their accumulated power and darkness.

 

 

Didn't Lumiere say the Dark One Vault's was where the first Dark One was created? What did the vault have to do with anything, since the Dark One was actually forged at the Flame of Prometheus? Did Nimue set all that up?

 

This show lies! See the Apprentice and his retelling of Merlin and DO. I do hope they'll be an explanation. Like maybe Nimue set up the vault so that each DO could leave behind their soul in the vault, and be "reawakened" with whole Excalibur.

Edited November 9, 2015 by LizaD

[KingOfHearts]

 

Isn't that why Merlin was being all like you'll be the darkest DO ever? Cause she has their accumulated power and darkness.

Then that means every single DO was the the "darkest DO ever", because each one would outdo the previous. I thought what made Emma special was that she also had the power of light magic, making her the ultimate combo.

 

My headcanon for the origins of the Dark One was more witchcraft-related. A bunch of practitioners of the dark arts summoned the evils of the Underworld to fuel one man's power, using the dagger as a safety net.  The Vault, which uses quasi-pagan symbolism, would have been the spot this occurred. Rumple mentions in 3B that magic was created with certain laws put into place at one point. I find it strange that the Holy Grail could be used both for light and darkness. Is there any association between the origin of the Dark One and the origin of magic?

 

I kind of wish they never attempted to explain the Dark One's origin because these writers are terrible at worldbuilding.

Edited November 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[snarkastic]

 

I think Nimue DO was only Nimue but each new DO added in their own darkness to the darkness pool as it got passed along. So by the time it got to Emma, the DO is Nimue plus the 20+ others' darkness combined. Isn't that why Merlin was being all like you'll be the darkest DO ever? Cause she has their accumulated power and darkness.

 

 

Then that means every single DO was the the "darkest DO ever", because each one would outdo the previous. I thought what made Emma special was that she also had the power of light magic, making her the ultimate combo.

 

I can kind of make it work if we go with each Dark One's power/soul going into the vault when they die, leaving the new Dark One fresh, at the same beginning levels as all previous Dark Ones. And then when Douchefire resurrected Rumpel, all the previous Dark Ones' powers/souls escaped with him. It can explain the swirling Darkness in the vault when Lance and Gwen went there was, why after all this time his super black heart was killing him, and the "all the voices in my head" that was attributed to Neal sharing his body, but could have been him dealing with all the previous Dark One's suddenly popping into his head as we saw with Emma when she took on the power.

 

And wow, what a run on sentence. That's what happens when I try to apply logic to this show.

[Faemonic]

From the Relationships thread:

they lost me when it immediately made Hook dark. First of all, he was being tethered to Merlin's half, which should have been sparkly light magic. Plus, it's not like he started killing people. How does being tethered to a light magic artifact make him dark?

Maybe the tethering itself, as it had first been done on Nimue (and, not that this matters, but the fandom appeared to have been a wee bit uncomfortable in some patches with Merlin magically controlling his girlfriend even though that was only implied), was dark magic. If Regina can work the lightest of light magic without a heart, then it could very well be the act itself that is dark or light. There can't be a dark True Love's Kiss, although Hadouken jazz hands of magic can be either dark or light, and maybe there can't be a light magic tethering.

[HoodlumSheep]

I figured it was the tethering and all the "bad" magic involved, plus the two bad things that Merlin did that basically made Hook start out dark (er?). Merlin did have purple magic (which is evil!). The dark act basically tainted the excalibur half.

while Emma had all her light magic and stuff that seemed like it cancelled out any immediate darkening from the dark goo. So she started out at 0 or neutral for the most part.

[Jul 68]

This show lies! See the Apprentice and his retelling of Merlin and DO. I do hope they'll be an explanation. Like maybe Nimue set up the vault so that each DO could leave behind their soul in the vault, and be "reawakened" with whole Excalibur.

I'm trying to figure out how to reply to this with speculation on my part in a spoiler free way.

I think you are very much onto something here! I haven't seen any of the spoiler spec go down this road to explain the appearance of the hooded previous DOs in pre-UW SB.

I hope I did this correctly.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Jul 68

[YaddaYadda]

This show lies! See the Apprentice and his retelling of Merlin and DO.

 

I can't believe they didn't go back to read what they wrote. They could've easily had Nimue, and Merlin battle it out. 

 

I do hope they'll be an explanation. Like maybe Nimue set up the vault so that each DO could leave behind their soul in the vault, and be "reawakened" with whole Excalibur.

 

Since I'm still thinking that Nimue beat out the darkness, and since she is the only Dark One to not have those voices in her head, I think she built the vault to contain the darkness inside of it once she got herself rid of it.

 

Then some idiot wrote down a guide to opening the vault, complete with secret code and all. Apparently, all one needs is the dagger, and a whole bunch of goo to become a Dark One.

[scarynikki12]

I really hate that non-magical characters are able to use magic.  What Rumpel did should have been magic of extreme power that only an experienced user like himself pre-S5, Regina, or Emma could have wielded.  Instead, he was able to use that potion with little issue.  I also call BS on Rumpel even devising/mixing such a potion in the first place, as he never envisioned the scenario we saw tonight.  I know, I know, Contrivance was at play as he always shows up in the Once finales but it's still so aggravating. 

 

In addition, if anyone, even the 100% powerless, can use any magic, then why aren't we seeing every character taking magic lessons?  From what we've seen, the Onceverse isn't the Potterverse.  With Potter, people are either born with magic or they aren't.  Muggles that wield enchanted objects experience severely negative consequences that have to be sorted out by fully qualified witches and wizards from the Ministry of Magic.  With Once, some people are natural practitioners (Zelena, Emma, the fairies), some need to be taught (Cora, Regina) and some benefit from being imbued (Rumpel, Hook), but all can use magic in exactly the same way, and often with the exact same results.  There's no indication that the dwarves, the Charmings*, Henry, Belle, or Random Townie #7 can't become practitioners of magic yet the most any of them do is use a potion or spell when the established practitioners aren't available. 

 

In short, the world building on this show sucks.  I'm playing Captain Obvious, I know, but it bears repeating.

 

*As an aside, I wish Snow's story this season had been her using the magical knowledge that Isaac gave her in the AU.  They may not reference those two episodes but we know the characters retained their memories of that time so Snow should still remember how to use magic and be pretty good at it.  If Snow had i̶g̶n̶o̶r̶e̶d̶ kept her distance from Emma this half season because she was working on her magic so that she could help remove the Darkness that would have been cool.

[Rumsy4]

So, the Dagger looks different now. It's inverted. Maybe it's new?

[Camera One]

So does going to Hell and bringing Hook back violate the rule of magic about not bringing someone back from the Dead?  

[Delphi]

From morality thread:

Yeah, but on the other hand, Neal brought Rumple back from the dead and he's alive now, with none of the consequences (Neal died - excuse me, was killed by Zelena - but Rumple is fine). Maleficient was dead and she was brought back. David was dead and he was brought back. For every Daniel and Neal and Graham who are super 100% dead, there is an equivalent example of someone being brought back.

I think you also have to take in to consideration how someone died. I can't help but think of Buffy logic wit all the resurrection talk. For example, Buffy was brought back because the way she died while Tara's death was a human death by human means. Mal was a dragon and then a dust zombie, so I'd hardly consider either of her deaths human or natural. Then we have Daniel and Graham, while heart crushing isn't very natural they are still mere mortals. David hadn't been dead for very long when the heart splitting, I'd say it was more like flat lining and the heart split worked like a defibrillator. Rumple is very not human as far as ancient black magic dark ones go but the vety human Neal ended up paying the price of resurrection. Hook, j suppose was human at the time, though very long lived, and while a sword through the chest is a human death it was an evil mystical sword, and he was already suffering from the mystical cut. I'd think they can bring Hook back, but there will be a price to pay for that. Edited December 8, 2015 by Delphi

[Shanna Marie]

One precedent that may or may not matter in this show was in the Wonderland spinoff, in which Ana was saved because she wasn't supposed to have died -- Jafar stabbed her, then when he did the magic to break the rules of magic, he brought her back and made her love him. And then after all was said and done and they broke the rule-breaking spell, she died, since that magic was undone. But then the magical being who controlled the life-giving water gave them some of the water to restore Ana because she wasn't supposed to have died when she did. That might stretch to cover the situation here -- Hook died to take all the Dark Ones with him, but because Rumple pulled his little stunt to siphon off the Dark Ones into himself, Hook didn't take the Dark Ones with him, and therefore he shouldn't have had to die. At the point of Hook's death, Rumple was actually the Dark One and therefore the one who should have been sacrificed (which would support the idea of trading Rumple for Hook in the underworld, since that's where all the Dark Ones were supposed to be going).

 

Maybe that's where Lancelot's side trip to the Lady of the Lake will pay off -- that's how they manage to heal that fatal wound of Hook's.

[Rumsy4]

MM and Charming didn't seem all that thrilled with the idea of Emma and Hook sharing a heart. Do they know something they are not telling? Maybe there are some side-effects of heart sharing that are not so good. Or do they just feel apprehensive about Emma taking that kind of risk to get Hook back? Maybe if a couple doesn't have True Love, the heart-sharing won't work, and there is no TLK to confirm them as a TL couple yet. A&E have been promising to "explore" the repercussions of heart-sharing. Maybe they will finally deal with that.

[Camera One]

MM and Charming already reached their allotment of words that episode.  

 

The whole sharing a heart thing didn't even fit the situation.  Charming's body was still warm and the cause of death was loss of a heart.  I was surprised when Regina piped up, "It could work!"  What the hell?  (pun intended)

[Curio]

Yeah, I'm confused by the heart-splitting logic, too. Hook still has his heart inside his body, so is he just going to have 1.5 hearts from now on? Or was Emma alluding to the fact that they'd have to take Hook's original heart out, crush it, and then put in half of hers? And what are they going to do with Hook's corporeal body in Storybrooke? Did they quickly cremate him and that's why they physically need to bring him back from the Underworld? It would have been nice if the finale spent 30 seconds on all of this.