Magic, Enchantments, and Curses: Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo

[Faemonic]

Not only did it not hinder Zelena's plan, but we saw later that Regina apparently had the whitest white magic that ever whited (let's just handwave that Regina was never inherently magical and all her dark magic was learned) so Emma was never needed after all and they never needed to cast Curse 2.0 in the first place.

Going more philosophical about magic, though, Regina wouldn't have been able to defeat Zelena in The Enchanted Forest using light magic because she wouldn't have had Henry to awaken it...unless Regina rediscovered a healthy maternal bond with Snow while they were in the Enchanted Forest.

 

Emma has innate magic (resisting Cora's heart-grab, making the milk in Snowflake's bottle boil) but from her magic lessons, it seems that magicians need concentration (and that much is also innate, at least according to my yoga and meditation class) but that concentration would be influenced either by wanting to protect your family or being really, really, really angry at this love triangle subplot.

[Shanna Marie]

Going more philosophical about magic, though, Regina wouldn't have been able to defeat Zelena in The Enchanted Forest using light magic because she wouldn't have had Henry to awaken it

Though the way they played it, it was Regina's love for Robin that allowed the white magic. It was the memory spell that was broken via her love for Henry. I suppose there was also some abstract Henry love involved in defeating Zelena because she knew that if Zelena's plot worked, Henry wouldn't exist, but that would still have applied in the Enchanted Forest. So, really, all that they would have needed for Regina to defeat Zelena in the Enchanted Forest was for her to have seen Robin's tattoo there (since that seems to be the only difference between her despising him in the Enchanted Forest and being so madly in love with him that she believes she can't have a happy ending without him in Storybrooke).

 

I actually don't have a huge problem with the way the second curse was done (aside from the reasons and the ultimate result). Regina was actually the one who did all the casting prep work. Snow just did the final trick with the sacrifice, and I don't think that her getting David back undid the sacrifice because she then sacrificed of herself to save him. That was a loophole Regina could have used with her father, but she was too selfish to even think of it.

 

I wonder if the darkness of the curse was affected by the fact that in one instance the sacrifice came via murder of someone who was begging Regina not to do it while the heart in the second curse was willingly offered. But I do think that what Regina's line about them not having to be miserable meant was that when she cast the curse, her very intent was to make them miserable. I'm not sure she even knew what the curse would do, exactly, other than rip away everything that made people happy and possibly transport Snow to a place where she'd be able to harm her (since that was the restriction Rumple put on her when Snow freed her). With curse 2, they were just casting it as a transportation spell.

 

You know, we never got any clarification on whether the people from the Coradome from curse 1 (Robin and the Merry Men) who were affected by curse 2 got any kind of Storybrooke memory download even if they didn't have cursed personas. The people from curse 1 went back into their Storybrooke selves even as they retained their own identities. Did the newcomers get any cursed identity that lived side-by-side with their real self? So was sending Robin with Marian a real help or the blind leading the blind? They've been so weak with the distinction between the true outsiders like Hook, Elsa, and Marian and the Storybrookers that I don't think there was any definitive sign that the other newcomers had a better grip on our world than the true outsiders did.

[Faemonic]

Though the way they played it, it was Regina's love for Robin that allowed the white magic. It was the memory spell that was broken via her love for Henry.

 

Regina breaking the memory spell in the Re-Curse (...via true love's kiss...without a heart...) was the big hint to Emma that Regina could use light magic, though. Maybe the big showdown with Regina flying through they air all light hands was influenced by Robin? I didn't catch that part, though.

 

You know, we never got any clarification on whether the people from the Coradome from curse 1 (Robin and the Merry Men) who were affected by curse 2 got any kind of Storybrooke memory download even if they didn't have cursed personas.

I want to say that they didn't because Robin Hook, and Little John, and even Roland don't have curse names. But then again, they wore modern clothing, so maybe Snowing's Half-Hearted Dark Curse gave them enough information to know how to get around but didn't give them new personalities. It's like in The Matrix movie where Neo Anderson suddenly knows Kung Fu, except Robin Hood knows...not Kung Fu.

 

The thing is, if Regina could give Emma and Henry a memory override during Pan's Dark Curse attempt...she could kind of have done the same for Marian, and Marian would likely still thank her even for that, so it would have been a win-win-win.

[Camera One]

Lost your last magic bean?  Missed out on getting those magic slippers?  Have trust issues with Shadow Air?  Can't turn into a Flying Monkey?  Don't have a bargaining chip with the Sorcerer for BYOD (Build Your Own Door)?   If you don't have the means, but you STILL want to go to the Land Without Magic, we have just the thing.

 

The DARK CURSE will transport you and your entire realm unprotected by Bubble (sold separately at no cost) to the Land Without Magic, creating all the amenities, clothing and practical knowledge you will need to survive.  Add-on deluxe features include:

- Providing your travel companions with Cursed personalities so you can enjoy watching their misery for eternity

- Bringing select individuals from other realms, for only a trifle or a token each

- Updating of clothing and technology with time, with time lag

- Also included are New Cursed Memory Starter-kits for all those comatose patients who are coming with you

 

The price is ONLY the heart of the one you love the most.  We take romantic love, parental love, sisterly love and even boss/employee love if you are scraping the bottom of the barrel.  We do not take pet love.

 

For a short time only, you can get the basic DARK CURSE package, minus the extras, for only HALF a heart.  Do at your own risk.

 

Curse may come with a Storybook which will mess with the memory component of the Curse.  No refunds will be given if the Curse is voided by a True Love Kiss.  The Curse cannot be reversed unless you acquire the Black Fairy's Wand.  Payment for a New Curse will be required if you undo a Curse and change your mind.  Curse comes with mayoral responsibilities with or without a really posh home.

 

Curse conditions are subject to change without notice.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

Regina breaking the memory spell in the Re-Curse (...via true love's kiss...without a heart...) was the big hint to Emma that Regina could use light magic, though. Maybe the big showdown with Regina flying through they air all light hands was influenced by Robin?

Regina being able to break a curse with a True Love's Kiss was the clue that she might be capable of light magic, but her love for Henry has been consistent (especially after the retcon that she loved Henry all along, even when Emma's lie detector went off when she said she loved him and even when she was doing thing she knew would hurt him because she knew that would get to Emma). So if it was just Henry that was necessary, she theoretically should have been capable of light magic even in the Enchanted Forest because she still loved him even though he wasn't there and Zelena's scheme would have erased him from existence. The only thing that was different between the Enchanted Forest and the showdown in the barn was Regina seeing Robin's tattoo and then having makeout sessions with him, and during the showdown, they kept cutting to shots of her and Robin locking eyes with expressions of deepest love while he held her heart in his hands (what do you bet the script actually said something like "they look at each other with great love").

 

Of course, it would help if they ever really bothered to define light magic vs. dark magic -- Regina's done other magic with the intent of helping rather than hurting, but it's still that red/purple cloud and wasn't glowy light magic. Does someone have to specifically try to draw upon one side of the Force or the other? Is Regina now a switch hitter who can use light or dark, depending on the occasion? Could Emma do dark magic? Or is everything she does automatically light?

 

And it would really help if they'd establish some rules for magic. There was some discussion in the villains thread about the villains being overpowered, with some dissent about Emma being too powerful (except Emma has never been allowed to do much of anything useful with her magic. She just gets to use her magic to make pretty things). But what it generally boils down to on this show is that the villains can do anything while the heroes are powerless against them, until the heroes can do something against them and the villains end up being powerless. I can see not wanting to tie themselves down, but even when you're dealing with the real world, there are rules you have to follow -- this kind of gun holds this many bullets, and when you run out of ammo, you're out. The show would be so much more interesting if there were established rules and limits on magic so that we could know each magic user's strengths and weaknesses to create a more interesting matchup and something more than standing around doing jazz hands at each other, with the villains winning until the next-to-last episode of the arc, when suddenly the heroes will be able to prevail.

[YaddaYadda]

This is what bugs me with the whole light magic thing.  Emma was born with it because she's the product of true love and blah blah blah.  The fairies use light magic and Glinda had light magic (I think) though Zelena was more powerful than she was and Regina was able to produce light magic because she wanted to change or whatever drivel they served.

 

Is Emma's light magic still more special though?  Every magical person Emma has come across has touted her magic to be powerful, it's powerful enough to power Rumple's hat and he needed a whole bunch of fairies to get what Emma could give him.  Emma has all this raw potential in her, so which light magic is more "special"?

[Camera One]

The show would be so much more interesting if there were established rules and limits on magic so that we could know each magic user's strengths and weaknesses to create a more interesting matchup and something more than standing around doing jazz hands at each other, with the villains winning until the next-to-last episode of the arc, when suddenly the heroes will be able to prevail.

 

Exactly.  I mean, it is impossible to predict what will happen on this show, because there is some newly created magical object/method which is made up later on.  If someone had asked in early 4A... how do you think Anna will get to Storybrooke?  How do you think Elsa will get back to Arendelle?  It would have been impossible to guess since the Wishing Star and the Magic Door were magically created/explained near the end of 4A to solve/resolve 4A's problems.  There will probably be a new magical underground tunnel for Rumple to re-enter Storybrooke, a magical dog collar to contain Cruella, a magical fish net to trap Ursula and a special Curse to re-write the Storybook we will hear about near the end of 4B.

 

 

 

Is Emma's light magic still more special though?  Every magical person Emma has come across has touted her magic to be powerful, it's powerful enough to power Rumple's hat and he needed a whole bunch of fairies to get what Emma could give him.  Emma has all this raw potential in her, so which light magic is more "special"?

 

It's definitely more powerful than Glinda's, who self-professed that she could "never" have defeated Zelena, ever.  Probably bought her Light Magic at some dollar store.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I've been thinking more about the way magic works on this series, which I realize is a pointless exercise because the writers haven't thought about the way magic works.

 

It seems as though magic is primarily a dark or evil force in the Enchanted Forest. We haven't yet met a person with magical powers other than the fairies who wasn't dark or evil. The jury's still out on the Sorcerer and the Apprentice, but they don't seem to be all that active in the world, and the Sorcerer has done some slightly shady things (like was it a grand idea to let Ingrid get what she wanted and leave all of Arendelle frozen for 30 years?). They had to cast the curse to reach Emma when they needed the strongest light magic, which implies that there wasn't a light magic user available, and if there had been any other option for magical help, would so many people have made such drastic deals with Rumple? I'm not even sure what good the fairies are. How do they use all that fairy dust they have their slave race that's been bred for labor mining for them? You'd think they'd have wanted to undermine Rumple's influence by undercutting him on magical assistance. Of course, there would be some things they wouldn't do, but there's still a lot that would count as a positive need -- if you want revenge or to kill someone you'll have to sell your firstborn to the sparkly imp, but if you need to defend your land from ogres, save someone you love from a bad potion or give someone you love a magical pep talk, we'll take care of it in exchange for five good deeds.

 

I realize that most of this is plot-driven because there wouldn't be much of a story if people had somewhere to turn other than Rumple or if they had positive magical assistance when they were desperate, and that's a perfectly valid worldbuilding choice to have all the magical power in the hands of evil people. But then you have to deal with that world, and it's going to affect attitudes. If your only exposure to magic has been through people like Cora, Regina, Maleficent or Rumple, then you're not going to have a positive attitude toward magic. Magic would be something to fear, and magic users would be looked at with suspicion. Emma is apparently something unprecedented, and I still wonder whether her magic is inherently light or if she has light magic because she grew up without knowing she had it and therefore wasn't corrupted by it. They seemed to be going that route with the Frozen side of the story, where having magic was considered a shameful secret that had to be kept hidden, and when people did find out about it they were all "Monster!" There have been a few moments of worry about Emma, but not to the degree you'd expect if every magic user they've known who isn't a fairy has been evil. And even with the evil people, the ordinary folk seem to have a "yeah, magic, whatever" attitude about it, like it's part of daily life.

[Delphi]

Well, Blue is also shady as f#ck so I'm not so sure what she's be willing to do or not do. Especially anything philanthropic unless it suited her goals, like with Snow and Pinocchio.

But I also think that Rumplestiltskin might be a lot more well known and obviously more infamous than the fairies. I'm thinking mostly to season one and two but I'm not sure how many commoners and peasants knew that they could just make a unselfish wish on a star to get help. Cinderella looked baffled at her fairy godmother and Bae didn't know who Blue was except that dying children prayed to her for help. And that could easily be the kids being desperate for help.

[Curio]

I just thought of something. We've all talked about how the magical people on this show have such an unfair advantage over the non-magical people, so why haven't the non-magical people tried to make magical weapons they can use to fight the magical villains? Hook and Charming are good at using their swords, so why not have Regina, Emma, or have Belle research a way to make the metal part of the sword laced with magical powers that can deflect an oncoming fireball or do some major damage to a magical person? Or have the good guys make bullets infused with magic that can actually harm Rumple? Snow and Robin can use magical arrows that explode into magical fireballs when they hit their target.

 

Sure, they'd be screwed if they lost their magical weapons in a battle and couldn't conjure up magic like Emma or Regina could, but it'd be a heck of a lot better than what they're doing now - which is basically nothing.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

 

Hook and Charming are good at using their swords, so why not have Regina, Emma, or have Belle research a way to make the metal part of the sword laced with magical powers that can deflect an oncoming fireball

Mulan had a sword that did, then she gave it to Snow.... hasn't been seen since. It's probably sitting with Pandora's Box and the Death Candle somewhere.

Edited February 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Mulan had a sword that did, then she gave it to Snow.... hasn't been seen since. It's probably sitting with Pandora's Box and the Death Candle somewhere.

 

I totally forgot about that. Wow. It's even worse then if they've already established a magical weapon that can be used by a non-magical person. No excuses, Show!

[tennisgurl]

I forgot about that too! Dang, I was just thinking about why they don't use magical weapons, and now it all makes sense! They just totally forgot about it! What a dang shock. Someone on this show just needs to make a big list of the Rules of Magic, and go back to it when they are stuck. I mean the writers AND the characters. Their very own Book of Shadows! 

[The Cake is a Pie]

There was also the squid ink that could incapacitate Rumple and Cora's magic nullifying cuffs.

[KingOfHearts]

There's also the anti-magic arm brace, not to mention the Dagger. Apparently, according to Rumple, the real Excalibur sword is impenetrable from magic. We haven't seen it, but they say it's in Camelot. There's the invisible chalk, too.

Edited February 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

We also know that non-magical objects can be enchanted. Hook's hook was enchanted so that he could rip out one heart with it (I think it was Regina, expecting him to use it on Cora, but then he switched sides and helped Cora fake her death, and then he used it on Aurora). So Regina should be able to give the good guys all kinds of magical weapons.

 

Robin has the arrow that never misses its target. I hope he left it behind with the Merry Men so someone could get some use out of it. Or do magical objects still work in the World Without Magic? The Jolly Roger's cloaking spell still worked in New York, as did the memory potion (though wouldn't it have been more interesting if Hook had to get Emma to Storybrooke before the potion would work?).

[Curio]

After all these examples of magical items you guys have listed, it just makes the good guys look even worse for going into battle against the magical villains without magical weapons. What exactly was Hook and Charming thinking they could do against Zelena and Rumple in the barn with their non-magical gun and sword? What was Belle thinking going up against Zelena without anything? I swear, if these people don't spend the 6-week hiatus stock-piling magical weapons they can use against future bad guys... they deserve to lose.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

Regina still has her Agrabahn vipers. Slip it into Zelena's bed, and you've got her nailed.

[Shanna Marie]

What was Belle thinking going up against Zelena without anything?

I think Belle was more going up against Rumple with the strength of her love, and she was sure their love was so strong that it would break the hold Zelena had on Rumple so that he wouldn't attack Belle and would maybe turn on Zelena on Belle's behalf. Rumple, and not Zelena, was doing most of the flinging people around.

 

Not that this makes any more sense as a battle tactic. Love is powerful, but in battle I think I'd rather have armor and a sword. Or a gun.

[Curio]

I was actually thinking more about the scene where Zelena is marching through the hospital and Belle tries to stand up to her for 2 seconds, then immediately gets knocked out. But yeah, Belle thinking the "power" of her "love" was also a pretty terrible battle plan.

[Shanna Marie]

I was actually thinking more about the scene where Zelena is marching through the hospital and Belle tries to stand up to her for 2 seconds, then immediately gets knocked out.

That's the scene I was thinking of. She seemed to think she could reach Rumple with the power of her love, and that would somehow make him stop Zelena. She stood there, teetering on her sky-high heels (I'm more impressed with her physical acting now that I know she's a dancer -- if she can do pointe, she wouldn't have an issue with heels, and it's really hard to fake that kind of wobbling), blabbing about how powerful their love was, convinced this would keep Zelena from using the Dark One as a weapon against her.

 

Maybe Belle should have taken it as a sign that she immediately got knocked out -- it indicated just how powerful their love wasn't.

[Curio]

That's the scene I was thinking of. She seemed to think she could reach Rumple with the power of her love, and that would somehow make him stop Zelena.

Ah, I thought you were referencing the scene in the storm cellar where Belle thought she could reach through to Rumple in the cage. Now that we know Hook was able to break through Rumple's hold on him long enough to grab Emma's arm, it really should have been a red flag to Belle that she couldn't reach through to Rumple on multiple occasions. (Yes, perhaps the dagger's magic is harder to break through than a stolen heart, but it's still an interesting parallel.)

[KingOfHearts]

 

(Yes, perhaps the dagger's magic is harder to break through than a stolen heart, but it's still an interesting parallel.)

Well, True Love is the most powerful magic of all. It can penetrate even the Dagger's. Rumpbelle and Outlaw Queen aren't True Love couples. There I said it.

Edited February 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I was actually thinking more about the scene where Zelena is marching through the hospital and Belle tries to stand up to her for 2 seconds, then immediately gets knocked out. But yeah, Belle thinking the "power" of her "love" was also a pretty terrible battle plan.

 

Zelena marching through the hospital was one of the worst scenes ever on this series, and summarized how over-powered Zelena was in terms of magic.  They might as well have placed a few Paper Dolls in her way.  Regina and Emma's magic was inconsequential.  Just like that pathetic "protection spell" Emma put down in Season 2 to keep Cora and Regina out of the pawn shop.

 

Well, True Love is the most powerful magic of all. It can penetrate even the Dagger's.

 

Thanks to 4A, we now know that Extreme Hatred is just as powerful.  You can't make this stuff up.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Just like that pathetic "protection spell" Emma put down in Season 2 to keep Cora and Regina out of the pawn shop.

If Emma's magic is powered by True Love, and she was able to blast Cora away with it, why is it utterly useless the rest of the time? Why is it that dark magic could penetrate her protection spell, but not her heart? Why was Regina's light magic able to stop Zelena, but Emma's couldn't?

[YaddaYadda]

Well technically, Emma saved Henry from Zelena with her magic.  It's one of those things that we keep forgetting.  Emma used her magic to save her son and she actually managed to harm Zelena.  She nearly smoked her and if she had kept going, she would have probably melted her.  They wanted Emma to lose her magic and thereby be inept so that Regina who was getting a real ass whooping can managed to produce light magic.  

[Camera One]

I guess Emma's magic against Zelena only worked properly if someone she loves was about to die.  Typical unpredictability.  Whereas a villain's magic usually does exactly what they meant to do with it.  With the Snow Queen, Emma could only hold off the Ice Monster with Regina's help, and neither of them (nor Elsa) could do a thing to the Snow Queen.  If the Snow Queen didn't commit suicide, basically everyone would be dead (and Emma and Elsa would be her "sisters" aka prisoners.  If you count all the magical coincidences which allowed in the Snow Queen NOT killing everyone, just in "Fall" and "Shattered Sight" alone... how lucky fate got all 40 ducks lined up in a row.

[KAOS Agent]

The whole magic thing is so silly to me because so many of these people have had their lives destroyed by it and yet, no one tries to come up with something to combat it or even expresses fear about it. That is, unless Emma makes a bottle boil and then suddenly Emma's totally evil and might injure the baby. Really, show? After all the horrible things magic has done, that's the magic that scares Snow? 

 

Emma was essentially entombed in a giant ice cave and nearly died due to a woman who, like her, had limited control over her magic. Snow didn't have an issue with this woman moving into the loft with them when just the day before her panic had created an ice monster that threatened the town. It's totally cool that this stranger is now in close proximity to her baby, but Emma knocks over a light post after warning everyone to stay the hell away from her and that's like the worst thing ever. Emma's dangerous, y'all, but Elsa's cool. You choose which magical person we should fear most: the woman who creates monsters when she panics or the one who has a minor issue with electrical units and provides proper warning that all is not well. Forget world building rules for magic, how about some reasonable reactions from the characters about its use. A guy who turns people into snails and crushes them is nothing to fear, but make one light bulb explode using magic and suddenly, everyone's all afraid. It's just so dumb.

[LizaD]

Well the S2 spell Rump taught Emma was just that, a spell. I don't know if Emma's magic was required for it or had anything to do with its holding power. I mean Belle cast that invisible spell over Storybrooke. So I'm pretty sure anyone can cast a spell as long as they know what it is. Snow cast a spell too with that candle right? It didn't just work on its own but required her to chant some spell?

But we're probably over thinking this. Magic is just a get out of jail card for the writers. It's an easy plot contrivance that doesn't require them to use their collective brain power.

To be honest I wanted a magical showdown between Snow Queen and Rump. I'm talking full on cheesy light sabers fight, without the light sabers. Who was more powerful?

[The Cake is a Pie]

I need a chart or scale to keep track of who falls where on the magic power scale.

[Curio]

To be honest I wanted a magical showdown between Snow Queen and Rump. I'm talking full on cheesy light sabers fight, without the light sabers.

 

We can still have a magical showdown between Rumple and Emma once she's powerful enough. I would have said Regina and Emma combined could possibly take on Rumple right now, but we were shown that they couldn't even take down a stupid CGI Viking, so...

And I'm so on board for light sabers on this show. Not actual Star Wars light sabers, but real swords glowing with magic. How badass would it be to see Charming wield a sword that had a white Emma-magic glow to it, and whenever it came into contact with something, it'd shoot off white magical electric shocks. This show has absolutely no concrete rules with its magic, so why not go all out and make some cool magical weapons? The writers can literally do whatever they want with magic, and they don't allow themselves to think beyond basic deus ex machina trinkets. What's that Inception quote? "Mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling."

 

I think at this point in the story, whatever reservations the good guys have against magic, they need to suck it up and start training with magical weapons. Yes, all magic "comes with a price," but Emma and Elsa have also shown them it can be used for good. I would pay money to see Charming and Hook practicing against each other with their new magical swords, or Robin and Snow practicing their magical archery skills together, or Belle going full-Hermoine and becoming really good at using one of Rumple's magic wands and casting spells because she's the only one who can read his old school spell books. Regina and Emma can even train together again and become more powerful. Please, writers, this show could be so cool if you just let it!

[Mitch]

Dumb Snow dropped the magic fighting sword as she jumped into the portal mom jean's and all. This is supposed to be the Bandit Snow who knew that Regina and Rump were waiting on the other side and that Cora would not give up getting to Storybrooke..so since I saw that I am just rooting for the villains to off Snow and Charming but the villains are as dumb as the good guys so...

Edited February 5, 2015 by Mitch

[Dani-Ellie]

Did she know they were waiting on the other side? (I honestly don't remember.) I remember Rumple and Regina doing their magic-killing-well preparation in secret.

[LizaD]

 

And I'm so on board for light sabers on this show

For sure the magic on this show is super lame. I think 5 year olds have more imagination. Hell My Little Pony has cooler magic. I know they're limited with budget but Heroes, a network tv show, was able to do better stuff with their "magic."

 

 

who falls where on the magic power scale.

 

We can still have a magical showdown between Rumple and Emma once she's powerful enough.

Well this is why I wanted a showdown between Snow Queen and Rump. The scale's always had Rump at the top as the most powerful until she showed up and she's the only that hasn't been his student.

 

So using Rump as the starting point and discounting stuff like he can be limited by any dimwit holding his dagger, how do the others compare? I won't consider brain power either since in a village full of idiots, it's not worth the debate. Tools, magical objects and spells that can be used by anyone doesn't count either.  So just by pure "muscle" strength:

 

Cora, Zelena and Woegina are obviously all less powerful than Rump. Of those 3, I'd put Cora first. Zelena had the most natural ability but she got beaten by Woegina so she's at the bottom. Haven't seen enough of Ursula, Mal and Cruella to say anything about them except that since they too were Rump's students, they should also be less powerful than him. But Ursula's a goddess that scared the crap out of Woegina and she's been around centuries too so she has the potential to be more powerful than him? Her ink can also neutralize his magic and therefore the rest of his brood. Glinda is the least powerful of this group. The fairies don't have any magic without their wands so they don't count.

 

Rump had to go out of his way to make deals with Ingrid to ensure his survival. He never even tried to take her down directly even when she went against him and I'm thinking it's because he can't. He can't neutralize her with his own magic but had to use the urn which only held her temporarily anyway. They're at least equal. Rump had centuries to hone his craft while Ingrid got 20 years, in an urn that was supposed to contain her power, to hone her craft so I'm putting her ahead. And she was in liquid form while she was learning all this crap by herself!

 

Did Pan's magic only work on Neverland? I don't know where to put him since most of his power came from mind games. But since he lost to Rump in their showdown he goes under Rump.

 

Elsa and Emma are the Bambis of the group so they're currently at the very bottom of the pile. Presumbably Elsa has the potential to be as powerful as Ingrid which would put her ahead of Rump. Emma's magic can work in the land of no magic and it has that unknown factor about it. Not even Rump knows what it can or can not do, so I'd put her potential on par with Elsa's potential.

 

The Sorcerer by default is the most powerful.

 

P.S. Since this show is Woegina's fanfiction and everyone else is just living in it, I'm going to say she's going to end up ast the most powerful. And the most victimized. And the most loving and whatever most+adjective A&E will throw out there.

[KingOfHearts]

So, does light magic always supersede dark magic? Does all light magic derive from True Love?

[Mitch]

Did she know they were waiting on the other side? (I honestly don't remember.) I remember Rumple and Regina doing their magic-killing-well preparation in secret.

No but remember when Snow left she knew magic was back and while Regina didn't know how to harnass it at that time she had enough experience with Rumple and Regina to carry that along just in case.  But I am sure Snow thought the power of hers and dimwits LIRVE could beat all...I wish this show lived up to its hype and actually wrote the character like they were real adults instead of simpering arche types.

 

On the list of most powerful we should put Cora....remember Regina and Rump were both afraid of her coming to Storybrooke.  Yes, I know in true Once fashion it was all, "We HAVE to stop her or we are BOTH in trouble," and then after this big build up Cora walks into the shop and Rump is all like, "Hey Cora how are things..oh you brought me something!"

 

I just wish it was Cora who was the leader of the Queens of Darkness, and they use Rump as their poodle.

[Shanna Marie]

So, does light magic always supersede dark magic?

Apparently not, since Glinda said she couldn't beat Zelena. It took the "strongest" light magic. Which I guess means that Regina's light magic is stronger than her dark magic because she wasn't the strongest at dark magic.

 

Regina being able to flip magic, light to dark, makes the magic in this world seem like the Force, where your mindset when you use it seems to dictate whether you're being light or dark. When she was all powered by love, Regina was able to use strong enough light magic to beat Zelena. And yet no one seems to have expressed any concern about whether Emma could end up using dark magic if she used magic when she was angry or wanted revenge.

 

Another factor in whether light magic is stronger than dark magic might be the near total lack of light magic practitioners. Every non-fairy magic user we've met in the Enchanted Forest has been evil. Either light magic is really, really rare, or dark magicians defeated them long ago and wiped them out. Emma seems to be unprecedented. You'd think Snow would have been freaking before the baby bottle boiled (say that three times fast), just because of the fact that Emma had magic and every non-fairy magical person Snow had met was evil. Based on what we've seen of magic in their world, magic=evil wouldn't be an unreasonable conclusion. It would be something to fear. She'd have to be trained carefully, and not by dark magic users.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Another factor in whether light magic is stronger than dark magic might be the near total lack of light magic practitioners.

It's hard to tell how light magic works because it's so rarely used in relevant matters. Glinda, Blue and the fairies don't do squat any more, except maybe turning puppets into real boys or turning bugs into people and vice versa. That seems to be all they do. We saw Glinda do a magic teleport, but that was it. She did nothing else.

Edited February 5, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The Sorcerer by default is the most powerful.

 

Unfortunately, with these writers, if he's good, he'll be about as powerful as Glinda and Blue.  You just know the Queens of Darkness will capture him and *almost* win.  He hasn't been written to be too bright so far.  Considering the idiotic "loophole" for opening the Hat Box.  And having an Apprentice who couldn't do anything.  So he was living in town, but had nooooooo idea that Rumple would eventually harass him?  Oh suuuuuuuuuuuure.  Was he not there for the First Curse? 

Edited February 6, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I personally enjoyed the Apprentice using a sword against Ingrid. What kind of all powerful being uses that guy as his liaison to the world? But hey, maybe he doesn't have to be that magical since all he has to do is write a book and everything turns out the way he wants. 

[Camera One]

The only way to make him clever is to show Blue and the Sorcerer making a pre-arrangement to plant that Hat Box where Rumple would find it, so he would try to make it work but end up destroying the Dark One powers for good.  And Blue and the Apprentice are having tea inside the Hat as we speak, and allowed themselves to be sucked in.

 

Speaking of which, why the hell would Ingrid know that he would need the heart of someone who knew him Pre-Dark to make the Hat cleave someone from a Dagger?  Wouldn't that info only be relevant to Previous Dark Ones, and why would they share that info?  Why would the Sorcerer keep the Hat around... "Every Dark One has tried and all have failed"... hello?  painting a target on your back much?  Shouldn't the Sorcerer have the Hat with him at all times sucking in all the evil villanous beings instead of leaving the said Hat sitting in some cellar protected by The One Who Sweeps?   I wonder if any of this would make sense when we find out the True Story of the Sorcerer.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yeah, if you need outside magical intervention, you're not doing it within yourself. Of course, we'll see every second of this emotional development onscreen. Everyone else's emotional development will take place offscreen.

So if Regina's fate controlled by an Author, does that mean he's controlling her to find himself? How does she think she can fight past the programming? Even if the Author only changes circumstances, if he's that powerful, how can she ever find him if he wants to stay hidden? Why does she think he's writing the present day events when the book ends at the Dark Curse? Shouldn't she have free will now? Could she move to the Land Without Magic and get free will there because the Author is using magic via the book?

Edited February 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

About magical weapons, David's sword seems to be able to deflect fire balls just like Mulan's does.  I don't know if it's an error on the part of the writers, but there was a scene in season 2 in Gold's shop when he's dying in the backroom.  Cora and Regina are there and Regina throws a fireball towards Emma, David and Neal and David steps forward and deflects it with his sword.  I don't remember which episode it was, but that happened.  

 

Regarding the whole "final" battle, I still don't think Rumple will be redeemed in the least by the end of season 4 and I still believe very firmly that there will be a battle between he and Emma.  He is the ultimate bad and she is the ultimate good and I do think he's a tad scared of her and what she can do once she comes fully into her powers and knows exactly how to use them.

[LizaD]

 

battle between he and Emma.  He is the ultimate bad and she is the ultimate good and I do think he's a tad scared of her and what she can do once she comes fully into her powers and knows exactly how to use them.

 

Doubtful. Rump can just curse Hook's ankles and voila, Emma will be useless again. But no worries, Woegina will be around to save the day because she will be the ultimate good when they rip out her soul. Cause then she'll feel things in her eyeballs like no one else can.

 

 

Speaking of which, why the hell would Ingrid know that he would need the heart of someone who knew him Pre-Dark to make the Hat cleave someone from a Dagger?

I'm assuming the Apprentice told Ingrid when she told him that she was going to give up the hat to Rump. Or I like to think that Ingrid was playing him and didn't mind getting Hook out of her way.

[KAOS Agent]

I wonder why when Pan froze everyone on Main Street and when Rumpel froze Snow & Emma in the clock tower, they were able to see and hear everything that was going on, but when he froze Belle in "A Tale of Two Sisters", she had no knowledge of anything happening and continued on as if time had never stopped for her. I really hate how there is no consistency in the magic used.

[Camera One]

Zelena also froze Belle, and she had no knowledge.  I think powerful magical users can freeze people with whatever intent they want.  If you want them not to know you freeze them, you do that; and if you want them to be aware so you can gloat and do a monologue, then you freeze their body but not their eyes/brain.  

 

In 4A, what really bugged me was the inconsistency of literally freezing people.  Ingrid freezing Marion (can't reach her heart!  residual problems!) vs. Ingrid freezing Hans (no worries, his heart is fine) vs. Ingrid freezing Anna, Kristoff and the entire kingdom (A-Ok afterwards) vs. Young Ingrid freezing Helga (instant freeze and shatter), vs. Elsa freezing Young Anna and Older Anna in the "Frozen" movie (can't reach her heart!).  I'm sure it could all be handwaved away with some explanation though.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I could go with the idea that Young!Ingrid killed her sister because she didn't know how to use her powers correctly. I guess the same could be said of Elsa in the movie (haven't seen it though, so no idea). If we pretend that Ingrid spent 30 odd years in the urn perfecting her magic, I could see why there are fewer repercussions with the freezing thing. Marian's heart freezing or whatever and the residual spell existing post-Ingrid's death was stupid though. Why is it that all of Zelena's spells were undone with her death while only certain spells of Ingrid's did. How convenient that the residual spells are the ones that deal with the town line and require Robin to leave town with his wife.

[Camera One]

It seems like every episode, the writers invent some brand new magical contrivance which is convenient for the plot, often throwing their existing rules.

 

In this latest episode alone, how many brand new magical plot contrivances did they invent?
- The Elixir of the Broken Heart, with the revelation that Rumple's heart is weak by his evil, which has NEVER been alluded to before
- Necklace of seven clovers for Glamour spells.
- Rumple could easily send Robin Hood to Oz through the door
- Author's pen is made out enchanted wood, and Rumple has one.. if the Rogue author got fired, why does he still have the ability to write new tales?

 

In the last episode, we had Maleficent put everyone in town under a sleeping spell both in flashback and in present-day, and claiming to Rumple that makes her useful.  Are we supposed to believe Rumple doesn't have this ability?  Wouldn't freezing everyone be essentially the same thing?

Edited April 18, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

But freezing everyone means that people would still see him going around town, Emma and Hook would see him in the loft. 

 

I still don't know why he didn't even want to kill Emma or Hook.  Cruella wanted to kill Emma and she seems to have had the right idea.  It seems less complicated to kill the Savior than to darken her heart.

 

I like that there seems to be a permanent portal between Oz and the EF.[/sarcasm]

Edited April 18, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Camera One]

But freezing everyone means that people would still see him going around town, Emma and Hook would see him in the loft.

 

Why doesn't he just glamour himself or make himself invisible as he was walking around?  Then freeze people as needed?  Or take their memories after, so they don't remember?  There were multitudes of other ways.   

Edited April 18, 2015 by Camera One