Magic, Enchantments, and Curses: Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo

[Camera One]

So dead Hook's body would still be dead, but his soul would be given corporeal life.

 

That's kind of creepy.  No wonder they didn't want to get into specifics.  

Edited March 24, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

That's kind of creepy.

But Hook can attend his own funeral! They could bury the body that died, but he can be there and alive because they gave life to his soul!

 

Yeah, that's not weird at all. But it would solve the problem of the unhealable mortal wound(s -- since the stab through the gut was done by Excalibur, too) on his physical body.

[Faemonic]

I had assumed because Hook cast the curse and Emma erased memories and put everyone in the diner before the curse swept everyone up, that one of them had control over where Excalibur was placed, but it sounds like Rumple is saying this isn't the case? When Regina cast the first curse, was it just coincidence that her vault and Rumple's shop were set up with a bunch of things from their realm? I always thought Regina or Rumple somehow placed them there intentionally.

Why do we keep coming to this thread and seeking/offering headcanon continuity fixes? There's nothing in the Show Bible to keep this consistent.

 

But so far, I'd say...subconsciously, the curse likely has a design for adjustments. The curse-casters can't consciously think up of everything. But if Rumple says Casa Captain Swan was just Hook's frustrated talent as a realtor at play, then that's probably what it is in this case. I still root Killian Jones in the original Captain Hook written by Barrie, who characterized him as having a "dark nature (in which) there was a touch of the feminine, as in all the great pirates, and it sometimes gave him intuitions". But then it's This Show so aaaaalllllll of the characters have intuitions that guide what's going on even without evidence, such as heart-splitting or seeking the author of a magic book who must also be some sort of god. This intuition is called Hope.

[Shanna Marie]

Merlin told Emma about the possibility that a Dark One could use the power for good. I don't think he was clear whether that meant that the power could occasionally be used to do good things, in among the bad things, or if he was talking about the possibility of a Dark One repudiating the Darkness and then being essentially what Merlin was. The power came from the same source, so would it be possible to get rid of the Dark part and just have the power and eternal life?

 

I'm leaning toward the latter because using the power for good isn't totally rare. As nasty as Rumple is, he has done some good things with his power. The problem seems to be that the power is inherently corrupting, so it's the craving for and enjoying of the power that tends to lead to an overall darkness. Plus, as they seemed to be saying with Emma, just using the power gave it more of a hold and led to more darkness, so even someone inclined to good would get worse while using the power for good. Rumple using his power over the centuries gave him the charcoal heart.

 

So, if what Merlin was talking about was new and different, someone turning being the Dark One back into something more like Merlin was, I would think that so far, Emma and Hook were the only Dark Ones who stood a chance of doing that because they were the only ones who didn't want the power in the first place. It seems like the sort of thing where anyone who wants it is automatically not qualified, and killing or conniving to get it would mean that it couldn't be a force for good. Emma took it on as a sacrifice and Hook had it forced upon him. But I would kind of think that if Emma couldn't manage to work through it and turn it back into its original intent, no one could.

 

I do wonder, though, what would have happened with Hook's repudiation of the Darkness if he hadn't had to absorb all the other Dark Ones first. That seemed to be the reason that he had to be killed, that he couldn't contain the power he'd sucked into the sword, and so he had to die to destroy it all. But if there hadn't been that much power involved, if he'd had his Get Thee Behind Me, Satan, moment and sucked the Darkness out of Emma and been willing to sacrifice himself but was able to manage the power, would he have remained a Dark One but transformed to not be dark?

[CheshireCat]

Shanna Marie, on 23 Mar 2016 - 2:30 PM, said:

Yeah, it's weird that in season 2, Regina can't heal Henry, but Rumple does. Then later, she can heal Henry, with no explanation about what's different.

 

 

We probably all agree that this constitutes an exception, however, there was something about Regina having promised Henry to not use magic/Henry not wanting her to use magic. They were talking about it when she was making the sleeping curse for Charming. So, since they apparently wanted Rumple to heal Henry, maybe we can explain it with Regina not wanting to use it because Henry didn't want her to use magic?

 

 

 

Merlin told Emma about the possibility that a Dark One could use the power for good. I don't think he was clear whether that meant that the power could occasionally be used to do good things, in among the bad things, or if he was talking about the possibility of a Dark One repudiating the Darkness and then being essentially what Merlin was. The power came from the same source, so would it be possible to get rid of the Dark part and just have the power and eternal life?

 

I always thought that the darkness and power were tethered together. After all, people without power had power when they became the Dark One. When they rid Rumple of the darkness, they also rid him of the power.

 

The question I would ask is, hasn't it already been used for good by Emma? In the end, she used it to get rid of the darkness. Sure, Rumple thwarted her plans, however, I'd say she used the power to serve the Greater Good and I don't think it's get "more good" than that.

 

But, now that I mention that - if the hat can't contain the power and the power needs to be within a person to be destroyed, what would Merlin have done with it? And why didn't he make a note of it?

[Camera One]

At first, I thought Merlin engineered everything because essentially Emma was his only hope for the Darkness to be destroyed for good.  Heck, it seemed like he even made sure there was a bad Author around to ensure more darkness was sapped out of Emma.  His own Apprentice knew full well how the Dark One came to be, but still tried to put the Darkness into the Hat, which didn't work, so it ultimately went into Emma.  But then, on the other hand, there was Merlin's cryptic message for Emma not to touch Excalibur when she actually needed to, in Merlin's plan in 5A to extinguish the darkness.  Which suggested he saw beyond.  And yet he prepared the Dark Curse so his own heart could be easily thrown in as an ingredient and then recorded a message telling everyone to find Nimue.  What?!!!   The entire scheme is patently nonsensical.  

[Rumsy4]

Patently nonsensical is exactly what it is. lol

[Shanna Marie]

I always thought that the darkness and power were tethered together. After all, people without power had power when they became the Dark One. When they rid Rumple of the darkness, they also rid him of the power.

But Merlin had the power without the darkness, and his power came from the same source as the Dark One. They were two sides of the same thing. Merlin drank from the Holy Grail and got power and eternal life without darkness. Nimue drank from the Holy Grail, used the power to kill, and became the Dark One. The standard Dark One who got the power from killing the previous Dark One probably would never be able to reject the darkness while retaining the power, but would someone who was made the Dark One by another means and who didn't want the power be able to become like Merlin?

 

But then things get really confusing when Emma uses the sword to pull the power tethered to it from Merlin and put it in Hook, and it's darkness, in spite of Merlin not being dark and not having chosen to do anything dark (and resisting the order to force him to do something bad). And then although Hook's power came straight from Merlin and wasn't part of the Nimue strain of Dark One, he still has Nimue and Rumple in his head. Then, if the power was sucked out of Merlin and he was made mortal (since he died when his heart was crushed), how did he start the curse and leave the magical voice mail?

[MaiLuna]

Any ideas on why Zelena's magic isn't working in the Underworld? Regina had some trouble but her magic has always been tied to her confidence, as it has been shown throughout the show. Zelena has magic since birth and she's quite powerful so I don't know why it wouldn't work. Rumpel's and Emma's work fine. Is Hades behind it? 

[KingOfHearts]

 

Any ideas on why Zelena's magic isn't working in the Underworld? Regina had some trouble but her magic has always been tied to her confidence, as it has been shown throughout the show. Zelena has magic since birth and she's quite powerful so I don't know why it wouldn't work. Rumpel's and Emma's work fine. Is Hades behind it?

 

"Magic works differently here." Of course, that only means something if the plot needs it to. Zelena needed to be powerless so she couldn't just take her baby back. But she had to accidentally scratch the baby with it later in order to show she's unfit to protect it.

 

That rule gives us such great scenes like Regina resurrecting a horse, too!

Edited April 11, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

^ snerk

[Camera One]

It is weird that the Sleeping Curse had gone from the worst thing ever that most likely couldn't be broken, and it's a shock if it does, to something that people do willingly and easily as a solution to their problems because it's so easily fixed.

 

What i find interesting is how in an episode where they had Belle offhandedly saying she'll just have her Dad give her a True Love's Kiss, they had the main plot where Zelena acted like putting Dorothy under the True Love's Kiss was the Worst Thing Ever, presumably because Dorothy doesn't have any family members who loved her left alive.  So in that case, it's apparently not easily fixed.  Though as you said, they could have a succession of people reading to Dorothy in her sleep, and maybe she'll fall in love with one of them in time.  After all, it only takes 5 minutes.

[KingOfHearts]

Since you can't be put under a sleeping curse twice, maybe all the citizens of Storybrooke should be forced to have it so they're immune. I'm sure they have all have a first cousin twice-removed that can TLK for them.

[Camera One]

I'd love to watch an episode about this and the Blue Fairy trying to convince people to have the milder form of the vaccine she developed in her free time.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'd love to watch an episode about this and the Blue Fairy trying to convince people to have the milder form of the vaccine she developed in her free time.

 

And Maleficent sells her own on the Storybrooke black market with mild side effects.

Edited April 18, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

As was pointed out in the relationships thread when I brought up the watering down of the TLK, they did the same thing with the Dark Curse. The first time through, it took Regina some time to figure it out and then cast it, and there were all sorts of dire warnings about always having a hole in her heart afterward. Then Pan was able to cast it with ingredients he had on hand and the heart of someone he didn't actually love, just valued more than anyone else (when he basically didn't value other people). I'm not sure what he was going to create with it, though, since wouldn't it have needed alterations not to just create another Storybrooke? Then Regina was able to cast it again, apparently from memory, with Snow being the one to put on the final touch with David's heart. Okay, I can buy that, as she had experience. But then Hook/Nimue cast it after Merlin had apparently done the prep work for reasons we still don't know, and Hook was able to finish it by going into Nimue mode and taking Merlin's heart.

 

The strange thing about Hook's curse is that it was entirely unnecessary. The reason for the Dark Curse in the first place was that it was the only (well, other than the Shadow and the Sorcerer's doors, and flying monkeys, and probably about a dozen other ways) way to get to the World Without Magic. That's why Rumple wanted it cast and why Snow cast it. But when Nimue conned Hook into casting it as a way of getting back to Rumple, there was already magic in the World Without Magic. The barriers were down. Storybrooke was already created. There were lots and lots of ways to get back there. Hook could have used that same wand they used to get there. There were those doors. The Dark One probably could have scavenged up another magic bean (that only didn't work for Rumple in the first place because he needed the special magic bean that would go to the World Without Magic; Hook was able to travel via magic bean even without magic). So there was no reason for them to pull out the A-bomb of magic other than that they wanted something !shocking! and maybe a way to get rid of Merlin because having him around would be too useful (since he was soooo useful when he was alive).

 

They've done a similar thing with traveling to the Underworld. At first, it was a big deal. Now you can get there by portal or magic slippers or tracking spell. Wasn't a tracking spell a fairly big deal at one time? Now everyone can cast one, and it's not even a case of following the object to the person. It'll take you even to other realms, including the Underworld, where you can supposedly only go via a particular portal during the full moon if the portal is opened by the blood of someone who's been to the Underworld.

[Camera One]

They've done a similar thing with traveling to the Underworld. At first, it was a big deal. Now you can get there by portal or magic slippers or tracking spell. Wasn't a tracking spell a fairly big deal at one time? Now everyone can cast one, and it's not even a case of following the object to the person. It'll take you even to other realms, including the Underworld, where you can supposedly only go via a particular portal during the full moon if the portal is opened by the blood of someone who's been to the Underworld.

 

Yep, and that's within a single half-season.  Now we know how long magical rules last... five episodes!

[CheshireCat]

KingOfHearts, on 18 Apr 2016 - 6:16 PM, said:

Since you can't be put under a sleeping curse twice, maybe all the citizens of Storybrooke should be forced to have it so they're immune. I'm sure they have all have a first cousin twice-removed that can TLK for them.

 

Which makes me wonder - where was Belle when the Queens of Darkness put Storybrooke under a sleeping curse in S4? Because technically, all of Storybrooke was already under a sleeping curse...

As for Zelena and making it out to be something so bad - I think that was because the only person who could have woken Dorothy was dead, or so she assumed. And considering that you have these awful dreams when you're under a sleeping curse and if there's no one to wake you you'd have these dreams forever, I think it pretty much is worse than death.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Which makes me wonder - where was Belle when the Queens of Darkness put Storybrooke under a sleeping curse in S4?

You're not granted immunity from temporary curses I guess?

 

 

As for Zelena and making it out to be something so bad - I think that was because the only person who could have woken Dorothy was dead, or so she assumed. And considering that you have these awful dreams when you're under a sleeping curse and if there's no one to wake you you'd have these dreams forever, I think it pretty much is worse than death.

Need to talk to your wife across realms? Have marital issues and want to prove it's True Love? Just inject yourself with Sleeping Curse™! Zelena is offering a bargain deal - one bottle of whiskey per needle. Hurry while supplies last!

 

Maleficent really needs to patent that stuff.

Edited April 19, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[InsertWordHere]

Is anyone going to bother to visit Belle in the burning room or will everyone just forget about her like usual? 

 

Maybe we'll get some Sleeping Beauty (the Aurora/Belle relationship name not the movie or character) interaction. Nevermind, this show has forgotten that Sleeping Beauty (the character) was ever under a sleeping curse. They've probably forgotten about the burning room altogether. 

[KAOS Agent]

Belle's not in the burning room. Those are the nightmares that come after you wake up from the curse.

[InsertWordHere]

Except when you jump over to it from the mirror room, like Charming did while under the curse. Granted, Belle doesn't have a helpful amulet.

 

I was mostly joking, anyway.

Edited April 19, 2016 by InsertWordHere

[Rumsy4]

I hope the baby doesn't get nightmares about the burning room. I doubt it would be a good thing for baby Damien. 

[Curio]

There was a discussion in the Relationships thread talking about Rumple possibly losing his powers if he True Love Kisses Belle. But Rumple and Belle's conversation about the True Love's Kiss in the last episode doesn't do a great job of clearing up whether or not Rumple would have to give up his Dark One powers to kiss Belle.

 

Rumple: You think this is going to force me to become the man you want me to be? To go back to the light just to wake you up? My love, I already told you. I'm not that man.
Belle: No, I know. You're not the one who's going to wake me, Rumple. My father is.

 

If Belle has already accepted she likes Rumple the way he is as a Dark One who likes power and Belle equally, then why is she suddenly asking her father to TLK her? Is the act of doing a TLK strictly light magic, and the only way for Rumple to fully go through with the kiss is to give up his Dark One magic? Can he still keep magic but only use light magic from now on like Merlin? Regina TLK'ed Henry without a heart and kept her magic, and she seems to still use a lot of dark magic, so why would Rumple have to give up all of his magic to TLK Belle?

[pezgirl7]

Is the act of doing a TLK strictly light magic, and the only way for Rumple to fully go through with the kiss is to give up his Dark One magic?

 

I do like that idea, but like you said, Regina seems to be an exception to that possible rule. Maybe there are levels of dark magic, and Rumple's is so dark, that he can't have a TLK without losing some of his dark magic. When Regina TLK Henry, why didn't she lose her dark magic? That's the problem I have with Rumple automatically losing his, since we've already seen a TLK that didn't result in a total loss of dark magic.

[Curio]

When Regina TLK Henry, why didn't she lose her dark magic?

 

Regina Exception Clause.

[kili]

If Belle has already accepted she likes Rumple the way he is as a Dark One who likes power and Belle equally, then why is she suddenly asking her father to TLK her? Is the act of doing a TLK strictly light magic, and the only way for Rumple to fully go through with the kiss is to give up his Dark One magic? Can he still keep magic but only use light magic from now on like Merlin? Regina TLK'ed Henry without a heart and kept her magic, and she seems to still use a lot of dark magic, so why would Rumple have to give up all of his magic to TLK Belle?

 

Regina has developed magical abilities (or had them inherently). A TLK would have no effect on that.

 

Rumple's magic comes from the Dark One's curse (he has no magic without the Dark One except for potions and magical objects). We've been told that a TLK can break any curse. So, if Rumple does a TLK, he breaks the curse on him and he loses his magic. He doesn't want to lose his magic so he won't do a TLK (apparently, you have to want to do it or at least not be actively not wanting to do it).

 

Of course, if the show wants it both ways, they will have Rumple make the absolute sacrifice of choosing Belle over power by having him do the TLK believing he will lose his powers and then not have him lose his powers...they'll use some loophole that since he took the Dark One powers using a method other than the killing with the  dagger, he wasn't cursed with the powers so there is no curse to break. It's magic and TSTW so they will think of some way to have it the way they want it.

[KingOfHearts]

So why is it that Regina and Cora can use magic without being innately magical, but Rumple can't? He's the one who taught them how.

[kili]

So why is it that Regina and Cora can use magic without being innately magical, but Rumple can't? He's the one who taught them how.

 

Given that Zelena is innately magical, maybe her sister and mother had latent magical ability that could be brought out? Rumple hasn't tried to teach Belle or Neal how to be magical (other than using magical objects and spells) and you would think he would for their own protection. Elsa and her Aunt had innate magical abilities, so it is possible it runs in families.  That may be why Rumple was drawn to helping Cora (he sensed the magical ability).

 

I don't think they have ever given us an explanation.

[Amerilla]

Is the act of doing a TLK strictly light magic, and the only way for Rumple to fully go through with the kiss is to give up his Dark One magic?

 

Is TLK even "magic" per se? All we've ever been told is that it's something that can break a curse, period. It's like putting disinfectant on a germ or giving someone a Tylenol to break a fever. It's an act of intent: I love you enough to overcome the strength of this spell or portion. If Rumpel can feel love for Belle or their baby, there's nothing the show has ever shown us that should hamper his ability to do it.

 

He certainly didn't think there was an issue in S2. He tried TLK to bring her memory back when she was in the hospital after her memory wipe; later he and Regina had a whole conversation about how he would have to make Lacey fall in love with him for TLK to work....no big, dramatic line about "going back to the light" to get it done back then.

 

I thought that whole exchange was nothing but another plot anvil - the more lines they feed about Rumpel never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever giving up being the Dark One, means he totally is, even if it's not his first choice. They may drag it out until next season because of Emilie maternity leave, but it's looking pretty inevitable to me.

[Curio]

Is TLK even "magic" per se? All we've ever been told is that it's something that can break a curse, period. It's like putting disinfectant on a germ or giving someone a Tylenol to break a fever.

 

That's why I was confused about all the talk of Rumple having to "go to the light" because we've been shown that a TLK doesn't require giving up magic, nor does it even require magical abilities. Charming and Snow are both non-magical people and have done a TLK, so why does Rumple suddenly need to go light-side to do it to Belle? It just requires loving the person, so basically Rumple is admitting he doesn't love Belle at the moment.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Curio

[CheshireCat]

KingOfHearts, on 19 Apr 2016 - 1:57 PM, said:

So why is it that Regina and Cora can use magic without being innately magical, but Rumple can't? He's the one who taught them how.

 

Might be because they did have magic inside of them from birth after all? Maybe A&E imagine it to be like a dormant gene or something.

[YaddaYadda]

I think it's just a requirement that they added. 

 

We just got done with Emma trying for a TLK in 5x02 that didn't work because she liked the power even though she initiated the kiss. In my mind, if she initiated the kiss, it's because she wanted out of being the Dark One.

 

The show makes up rules as they go.

[Curio]

I think it's just a requirement that they added. 

 

We just got done with Emma trying for a TLK in 5x02 that didn't work because she liked the power even though she initiated the kiss.

 

Wow, I totally forgot about that already. But it still doesn't really make any sense because shouldn't Emma have been stripped of the Dark One title when she and Hook kissed and lit the Promethean Flame? Shouldn't the fact that the flame was lit mean that she was willing to give up her power and accept love? Why didn't we get a big TLK swoosh of rainbow there?

 

If we're to accept that Rumple needs to become light to TLK Belle, that means he'd have to become even lighter than Emma was in that Promethean moment because even Emma wasn't able to pull off a TLK then. And I'm sorry, but there's no way this show can convince me that Rumple will ever get to that point of lightness.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

 

We just got done with Emma trying for a TLK in 5x02 that didn't work because she liked the power even though she initiated the kiss. In my mind, if she initiated the kiss, it's because she wanted out of being the Dark One.

Why didn't the TLK work with Hook in Storybrooke? We know she was trying to get rid of the power at that point.

[Curio]

Why didn't the TLK work with Hook in Storybrooke? We know she was trying to get rid of the power at that point.

 

Because Hook was technically a Dark One and didn't know it, I guess.

[YaddaYadda]

Why didn't the TLK work with Hook in Storybrooke? We know she was trying to get rid of the power at that point.

Supposedly because he didn't remember he was the Dark One which again makes no sense since he was initiating the kiss. 

 

Emma holding on to the power when he offered her the solution also made no sense.

 

Wow, I totally forgot about that already. But it still doesn't really make any sense because shouldn't Emma have been stripped of the Dark One title when she and Hook kissed and lit the Promethean Flame? Shouldn't the fact that the flame was lit mean that she was willing to give up her power and accept love? Why didn't we get a big TLK swoosh of rainbow there?

 

And I totally forgotten about that as well. The flame is lit because their love is that powerful, but it doesn't break the Dark One curse. Plus there was a direct parallel between Nimue's act that put the flame out, and Emma's act that lit it back.

 

Go figure! 

 

The more rules they add, the more confusing it becomes.

[KingOfHearts]

 

The more rules they add, the more confusing it becomes.

I wouldn't call them "rules", I would call them "exceptions".

[Rumsy4]

Rumple doesn't want his Curse broken. As a True Love's Kiss breaks any curse (except a memory curse), he would automatically become unDarkOned, and he doesn't want that to happen. His magic is powered by the Darkness. Even if he learned to use magic like Regina did, he simply wouldn't be as powerful. There's probably no obvious way to channel a TLK so that only one party gets uncursed. But Rumple will be sure to look for such a solution. 

 

Or it could just be that as both Rumple and Belle are cursed, a TLK between them wouldn't  work. So, Rumple has to get rid of the Darkness before he can kiss Belle awake.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

But it still doesn't really make any sense because shouldn't Emma have been stripped of the Dark One title when she and Hook kissed and lit the Promethean Flame? Shouldn't the fact that the flame was lit mean that she was willing to give up her power and accept love?

Yeah, I've been wondering about that. I can see why it didn't work in Storybrooke because Emma didn't want to lose her Dark One power at that time, since she needed it to save Hook. But that moment when she lit the flame should have been a TLK that saved her from being a Dark One, since lighting the flame was all about giving up the power.

 

Really, it's that aborted TLK in "Skin Deep" that throws a monkey wrench into everything because it establishes that Dark Oneness counts as a curse that can be resolved with a TLK. It was already a bit problematic because it seems weird that anyone could start and then stop a TLK -- if you're capable of stopping it because there's something else you want more, then how is it true love in the first place? Then there's the problem that Rumple thought he could break the amnesia spell on Belle with no worry about losing his powers, and then the Promethean Flame kiss that somehow didn't remove Emma's Dark Oneness. Plus the fact of all the other kisses between Belle and Rumple that didn't save him, which makes her look kind of foolish for getting into a relationship with someone she has magical proof doesn't put her first.

 

Remove the "Skin Deep" kiss, and then we can say that being the Dark One isn't a "curse" and therefore isn't affected by a TLK, and therefore Belle has no proof (up to the gauntlet) of Rumple not loving her most, there's no inconsistency about him trying to kiss her to cure her, there's no expectation that Hook and Emma could have broken it with a kiss, and then the problem with Belle trusting Rumple to wake her is just about her knowing he prioritizes power over her.

[YaddaYadda]

Or he could bottle his kiss like they tried to do with Auntie Em.

[Mari]

There's still a couple of loopholes--and one of them could be used to keep Rumple a Dark One when he (most likely inevitably) TLK's Belle to wake her up.

 

The original Dark One thing was a curse--but it was a process curse.  You had to kill someone to take on the power.

 

Emma didn't do that--she took on the goop without performing the ritual that completed the curse.  It's possible that because she willingly took it on, and didn't accept it all the way, that at the Promethean flame point, she wasn't cursed enough to be cured.

 

As far as we know, Rumple didn't kill anyone to reDarken himself, and willingly took on the power.   They could decide it's enough of a loophole to allow him to uncurse Belle, without unDarkening himself.

[kili]

Remove the "Skin Deep" kiss, and then we can say that being the Dark One isn't a "curse" and therefore isn't affected by a TLK, and therefore Belle has no proof (up to the gauntlet) of Rumple not loving her most, there's no inconsistency about him trying to kiss her to cure her, there's no expectation that Hook and Emma could have broken it with a kiss, and then the problem with Belle trusting Rumple to wake her is just about her knowing he prioritizes power over her.

 

They referenced that partial Dark One TLK after the TLK failed between Hook and Emma, so they have not interest in ret-conning it. They doubled down on Dark One-ishness being a curse that could be cured by a TLK and the Dark One having a choice about it.

 

Then they had Hook/Emma try to TLK twice while Dark Ones to try to cure the Dark One curse and had it fail both times, so they are fully bought into the concept.

 

Of course, another explanation for the Promethean Flame kiss not removing Dark Oneness is simply that Hook and Emma are not TL. Everything makes more logical sense if they are not. I would like them to be, but there is no solid evidence that they are. If A&E decide they aren't, then they have canon to back themselves up.

[Shanna Marie]

They referenced that partial Dark One TLK after the TLK failed between Hook and Emma, so they have not interest in ret-conning it. They doubled down on Dark One-ishness being a curse that could be cured by a TLK and the Dark One having a choice about it.

I'm not saying that they should retcon it, just that they raised the difficulty level when they did it, but they haven't lived up to the bar they set for themselves, as everything since then has been inconsistent.

 

Aside from any 'shippy partisanship in whether or not Hook and Emma are True Loves, it would be a rather weird statement about what True Love is if a couple involving people who've made great sacrifices for each other and who have made great efforts to change for the better for each other doesn't count as True Love, but a couple that started in Stockholm Syndrome in which one member loves power more, a couple that never actually met, and a couple that had one bickering walk in the woods are.

[kili]

Aside from any 'shippy partisanship in whether or not Hook and Emma are True Loves, it would be a rather weird statement about what True Love is if a couple involving people who've made great sacrifices for each other and who have made great efforts to change for the better for each other doesn't count as True Love, but a couple that started in Stockholm Syndrome in which one member loves power more, a couple that never actually met, and a couple that had one bickering walk in the woods are.

 

One would think, but TS,TW

 

Normally, we would get pay-offs for foreshadowing and rules would make sense, but this show is like playing Mario Kart. One never knows when the road will swerve away or somebody will suddenly blue shell you. Logic and conventional norms of writing do not apply.

 

I would like Captain Swan to be TL, but if they are revealed not to be...TS, TW.

[Writing Wrongs]

You guys are adorable trying to figure out this show's nonsensical rules of magic. I TLK all of you.

[Shanna Marie]

I TLK all of you.

And even though you've never really met us and only interacted with us online on a message board, it really is True Love and it works to break a curse!

[CheshireCat]

After last nights episode, are we to assume that the fact that Regina was able to open the box with the wand and activate the wand definitely mean that she had magic and just wasn't taught how to use it?

[Curio]

Because we've never been shown Regina accidentally doing magic at a young age

I think I just saw the bulbs light up in A&E&J's head over the southern horizon.

I just inadvertently forced a magical young Regina episode into the universe, didn't I?

After last nights episode, are we to assume that the fact that Regina was able to open the box with the wand and activate the wand definitely mean that she had magic and just wasn't taught how to use it?

Did the writers finally discover our forum?

Edited April 25, 2016 by Curio

[snarkastic]

After last nights episode, are we to assume that the fact that Regina was able to open the box with the wand and activate the wand definitely mean that she had magic and just wasn't taught how to use it?

Neal was able to open Rumple's secret magic cabinet and then use the magic crystal ball, is he born magical? No. So I'm sticking with no for Regina still too.