S02.E08: Arms and the Humanich

[HalcyonDays]

Episode synopsis: Molly tries to save her son following a raid on the hybrid compound and JD tries to rescue his daughter from Shepherd. Elsewhere, Lucy becomes a bigger threat to humans.

[Neurochick]

Wait, so did Ethan kill Lucy or just cause her to crash? Good riddance to a bad robot.

[kirinan]

I was so sure Julie was about to bite it. Good on you, show, for surprising me. I actually choked up a little when Adhu died. I hope Lucy's gone too, Neurochick. No way they could redeem her now. 

 

It amazes me that I'm as much into this story as I am; I strictly showed up for the JDM, but I actually look forward to it each week. I find myself able to overlook the plot holes, and I really can't figure out where they're going with it. I like that.

Edited August 13, 2015 by kirinan

[ottoDbusdriver]

So are all the hybrids dead ?

[Enero]

Wow, Lucy you deceitful little witch. She set Charlie up good fashion.

 

She was so adamant that she’s not human. What she didn’t realize was that she was more human than almost any human in her small universe. Blackmailing Charlie, who has always been on her side, was a low blow. Then lying to Ethan about Molly hurting her was even worse. 

 

Poor Ethan, he’s been a pawn in almost everyone’s game. Glad Charlie had a talk with him to explain that there are good and bad in humans and humanics.  Though I could have cared less if Julie was taken out, if given a choice I think I would’ve rather had Lucy go. Thankfully Ethan "saved the day" and took at the latter.

 

Lastly, I could not help but notice how in this episode all the humanics with the exception of Lucy were white men, that took out the majority minority aliens. And now the only alien/hybrid left for us to connect with (I’m sure there are more out there based on what Molly’s son said) is Molly. I’m sure the show hasn’t thought that far, how this looks but it was like a neon sign in this episode.

 

At the end, Toby asked what has he done. Indeed. If any of the hybrids survived there might be hell to pay for the genocide committed against them.

 

Another good episode.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Enero

[Rhetorica]

Since all the Humanichs are made with Lucy's program, can they go rogue too? I'm surprised Charlie spoke to Julie right away. I thought tbtb might have drawn this out. This show certainly moves along. Poor little Ethan. He may feel like pulling his own plug after what he did to Lucy. Maybe he's programmed with Asimov's Laws, especially the third.

[Such A Flirt]

Please stay dead, Lucy. Never liked her at all. And I don't like creepy Ethan either.

 

Is Charlie OK? No one even checked! I'm actually semi-glad that Julie didn't die, but: no killing the Charlie!

 

So long, Molly's handsome hybrid son. Pretty scary what he said about Tara.

[Happytobehere]

Ethan, Ethan, Ethan, what were you thinking? You let Lucy kill Julie THEN you kill Lucy. This way we are still stuck with that nightmare of a character.

Poor JD, locked up and still forced to talk to Toby the asshat.

So do we now have the battle if the deranged Hybrids versus the deranged Humanics, who were programmed by deranged Humans?

I continue to really like JD and the nice little chemistry he has with Molly. Halle is much improved this season.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Happytobehere

[thuganomics85]

Surprised that Charlie actually told Julie about the blackmailing, instead of dragging it out or actually going through with making Lucy immortal.  I wish more characters on various shows would do that.  Of course, if he and Julie were really smart, they would have had their "take out Lucy" discussion somewhere far, far away from Ethan (even if they didn't know about his little robot friend, he's still just in the other room), but I'll take what I can get.  I figured Julie wasn't going to die, but Ethan being the one to take out Lucy (did he actually put her down for good?), was certainly a way to go.  I wonder how they are going to explain this to the organization and Hilarie Burton's character.

 

So, the hybrids got their asses handed to them pretty badly, but Adu said something about their being others out there, so I don't think we've seen the last of him.  Adu on the other hand is gone, and Molly is now starting to see the symptoms.  Of course, that ends up being what finally shakes Toby up.  Yeah, the mass genocide was just the cost of war, etc., but seeing his crush dying is what makes him be all "What have I done?!"  Fucking hell, Toby.

 

At least JD got his daughter out, even if he's now captured in her place.  At least he can be happy knowing he was the one that gave Lucy the crippling shot, they jump-started her downfall.

 

I do wonder what this means about the rest of the Humanichs.  If they were part of Lucy's programming, could they go rogue as well?

[shapeshifter]

Wouldn't Toby want to do the time honored trope of kidnapping a super-powered alien for purposes of weaponization?

So are all the hybrids dead ?

So, the hybrids got their asses handed to them pretty badly, but Adu said something about their being others out there, so I don't think we've seen the last of him [them?]

Yes, and it was Terra and Ares, who Ahdu said with his literal dying breath were evil. I hope there are some good ones left too, because otherwise:

Lastly, I could not help but notice how in this episode all the humanics with the exception of Lucy were white men, that took out the majority minority aliens.

I've been noticing and commenting from the beginning about the odd/disturbing use of ethnic minorities in this show, and finally I'm not the only one seeing it. High five?

Edited to correct sleep typing gibberish typo.

Edited August 13, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Human]

The show is losing my interest.  Some of the dialogue is just so unsubtle and redundant.  It seems like they couldn't stop mentioning that Kelsey had been released.  This sort of thing keeps happening in all sorts of scenes where information is repeated as though we forgot what was said five minutes before.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised considering every episodes starts with a two minute summary of the entire show followed by another ten minutes of previouslies.

Yes, and it was Terra and Ares, who Ahdu said with his literal dying breath were evil. I hope there are some good ones left too, because otherwise:I've been noticing and commenting from the beginning about the odd/disturbing was ethnic minorities are used in this show, and finally I'm not the only one seeing it. High five?

Lol yeah, it was only a few episodes ago that you and I vaguely mentioned the racial subtext and I believe the general reaction then was everyone thinking we were crazy.  I've noticed that the last two episodes the subtext has been embraced.  

[Actionmage]

At the end, Toby asked what has he done.

 

The most disingenuous question asked on this show. Toby was told that it could kill Molly, at the negotiation, but he was all butt hurt that he'd been out-thought on his own turf. He threw down the "kill 'em- kill 'em all" gauntlet, knowing this outcome for Molly was possible. Toby had no fucks to give. For him to act concerned is just that- an act. The first time Molly wants something he doesn't agree with, he'll go back to hating her. Unless he thinks she trusts his stupid ass.

 

Poor Ethan! That poor kid needs some time in Happy Acres with a nice VR program of him and "John" making toys and VR!Molly and himself watching stars and camping with his cute robo-friends. I'd give the guy a hug if I could, and I was scared of Ethan at points tonight. My heart broke a little for Charlie, as Ethan unfriended his BHF. Aw.

 

As for Lucy? Reboot after putting in those limiters or the parts that Charlie forgot to put in. All I kept thinking was "In your race for power and glory..." and cussing Anna ( because that's her part).

 

I was also noticing that almost all of Lucy's direct brothers were white, though, I was pretty sure I saw the odd female and/ or POC in the "Let's kill the Hybrids!" scenes. Speaking of, my husband walked in  and saw that. He kept wondering why none of the hybrids were running away. Other than Tara/Terra, there were too many standing around gaping and standing still as the choppers flew over them. If this race can show Molly their home world through mental whatever, then they should be able to understand other flying vehicles. Since they also know that a government is aiming to kill them, the hybrids should have been running inside the building, unless The Tunnels have to be accessed outside the safety of their main building/barracks. 

 

Then The Judge seeming to go from hard-ass to gooey? I can buy someone not making an obvious end-of-life time harder on the dying man and his mother, but not calling Molly in? I'm okay with it, but then I wish they'd quit changing ex-wife tropes in mid-stream. There wasn't enough about The Judge to fully buy that she'd hug Molly in understanding sympathy and yet not turn her ass in. Especially as she was so vocally against anything that JD said last episode, when we met her. Shallowly, I also still hate her 'do. The ironed flat within an inch of it's life thing isn't good on Ms. Kanakaredes, imo.

 

I was not cheering for Julie to die, even though DH seemed to be "Well, she's earned it."  The retcon, in order to jump the season, hasn't made me hate her, but the writing choices made so that I would hate her.  The same writing that has Julie and Charlie realizing that Lucy's been setting them up almost from the jump- and sexually blackmailing Charlie with video- talking, out loud, in the home Lucy probably has wired for sound and video! Not to mention, kid brother, who idolizes his taller sister and  made the very camera that was used against Charlie! That Charlie nor Julie recognized the possibility that they were in a compromised building/setting makes me angry. They aren't stupid people. If the whole conversation was a lure to see how deep the Humanics distrust went? I'd buy that, but no. Instead of the two robotics and AI experts realizing they were behind in this chess match, they kept playing like they weren't in a game! I may finish out this season, but if the writing stays Idiot Ball-tastic, then I may have to break up with this show. Even with Ethan and JD.  I've watched too many promising shows with intriguing ideas behind them go off the rails, writing-wise.

 

Also, for some dumb reason, I keep thinking that "John Woods" isn't actually dead, but managed to be spirited away and he'll come back to save Ethan and maybe Molly.  (Yes, I know that Goren was off  filming another series, but I have watched too many soaps to completely buy "John's" death. Plus, why would Julie be gone at such a critical time in the group of 100's development if she wasn't trying to find a way to salvage "John's" vision for the Humanics. I know, contrivance, but still.)

[Blue Plastic]

So Humanichs have blue liquid instead of blood.  Interesting.  I used to watch "The Bionic Woman" when I was a kid, and seeing Lucy with some of her skin ripped off and her mechanics showing while she was attacking Julie reminded me of the Fembots!  Except at least Lucy still had her face on.

 

At least they have moved this "Lucy blackmails Charlie" plot along at a good clip.  A lot of shows would drag something like that out for-ev-er.  So glad Ethan saw sense after his talk with Charlie.  I was afraid that since Julie had messed with his memories, he might not be reachable.

 

Wasn't expecting Ahdu to die.  It kind of bugs me how much his character has been retconned, though.  Now it's supposed to be sad that he died, even though he started out as a creepy baby that manipulated Alan Sparks into bringing him human victims so he could "eat" their minds (that's what it looked like to me anyway; it was never quite explained), then grew up into a creepy little boy who was going to do something to that baby, then turned into a young man who was basically semi-raping, impregnating and indirectly killing a bunch of women, but it's okay because he didn't mean to do that.  I don't know, because the writers changed their minds about how they want the aliens to be viewed, they're hand waving an awful lot of stuff away.  I can go with it but it's kinda weird.

 

This weirdo Toby strikes me as Alan Sparks 2.0.

 

I like it when Molly's eyes glow.  Hers look a little different from the other aliens.  Interesting that they decided to make the little girl one of the bad ones.  I guess she will have a sudden growth spurt now.  How is it that she could survive when it looked to me like she was right next to a big puff of that virus-filled smoke when she was hiding under the bed in the alien dorm?  How did Molly have enough time to know that it "affects everyone differently"?

[wayne67]

 

Also, for some dumb reason, I keep thinking that "John Woods" isn't actually dead, but managed to be spirited away and he'll come back to save Ethan and maybe Molly.  (Yes, I know that Goren was off  filming another series, but I have watched too many soaps to completely buy "John's" death. Plus, why would Julie be gone at such a critical time in the group of 100's development if she wasn't trying to find a way to salvage "John's" vision for the Humanics. I know, contrivance, but still.)

 

Well next season it'll be revealed that John Woods designed an ultra secret back up version of himself in Humanichs form and he's been lurking in the shadows trying to find out who killed him...

 

I kept thinking during this episode if even one of these Hybrids survive they'll be PISSED... and with good reason. Nothing like an attempted genocide of your race to make me you less likely to give a shit about the humans attacking you. Then again if they read a history book about how people usually treat immigrants or refugees Ahdu probably would have decided not to go with the Xavier model on how to get your species hunted to near extinction.

 

I am left wondering how the other Humanichs that are supposedly based on Lucy's source code are going to behave now... Did they ever think designing robots to kill human looking people would be a bad idea ?

[shrewd.buddha]

The show is much more engaging this season, so props to TPTB in charge of the overhaul. The battle (slaughter) of the Humanics vs Hybrids was sort of clunky, but that seemed to be a result of a limited budget for special effects. 

 

Lucy turned out to be a pretty good villain .. very manipulative but with that matter-of-fact attitude and a winning smile. Maybe she's still in 'the cloud' somewhere, as Ethan was for a while. 

 

I see that the ratings aren't improving this season tho. Wonder how they will leave things at the end of the season? 

[Actionmage]

Good riddance to a bad robot.

 

All I could think of after reading this was :

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC-eFU6OgxA

[ottoDbusdriver]

I've had about enough of Ethan -- with his "If you hurt Lucy, I don't know what I'd do" attitude.  Umm, what exactly is he threatening Julie with ?  Is he going to kill everyone on the planet to avenge Lucy ?  Is he going to go pout in his bedroom ?  What exactly ?

[Neurochick]

I've been noticing and commenting from the beginning about the odd/disturbing use of ethnic minorities in this show, and finally I'm not the only one seeing it. High five?

 

 

As I said before, I think a lot of it has to do with Halle Berry being one of the producers.  I am sure that she has a lot of clout.  I think I read that she had something to do with the casting of Kiersey Clemons (Lucy).  I am sure she had something to do with the casting of the hybrids as well.  And it makes sense because if Molly is the mother of all of them, it would silly if the hybrids were blonde and had blue eyes.

[Free]

I've had about enough of Ethan -- with his "If you hurt Lucy, I don't know what I'd do" attitude.  Umm, what exactly is he threatening Julie with ?  Is he going to kill everyone on the planet to avenge Lucy ?  Is he going to go pout in his bedroom ?  What exactly ?

Break some more plates?  Idk, it would've been better if he had an army of robots to threaten people with instead of just empty threats.

[Human]

As I said before, I think a lot of it has to do with Halle Berry being one of the producers.  I am sure that she has a lot of clout.  I think I read that she had something to do with the casting of Kiersey Clemons (Lucy).  I am sure she had something to do with the casting of the hybrids as well.  And it makes sense because if Molly is the mother of all of them, it would silly if the hybrids were blonde and had blue eyes.

I'm not really sure I get your point.  It doesn't really matter whether or not Halle Barry is one of the producers.  The racial subtext still exists. That Molly's offpsring matches her race isn't at all surprising, nor is it the reason many of us are commenting on these issues.   

Edited August 13, 2015 by Human

[Neurochick]

I'm not really sure I get your point.  It doesn't really matter whether or not Halle Barry is one of the producers.  The racial subtext still exists. That Molly's offpsring matches her race isn't at all surprising, nor is it the reason many of us are commenting on these issues.   

My point is that as a producer, Halle Berry could probably influence the casting.  I see the issue, but it would make zero sense if the hybrids were all white with blonde hair and blue eyes, especially since Molly is supposed to be the mother of them all.  

 

Now if you're saying that it's interesting that the humanics are all white except for Lucy, then I see your point; however I believe that Lucy was supposed to have been designed by John, designed with Molly in mind I think.

[DearEvette]

My point is that as a producer, Halle Berry could probably influence the casting.  I see the issue, but it would make zero sense if the hybrids were all white with blonde hair and blue eyes, especially since Molly is supposed to be the mother of them all.  

 

Now if you're saying that it's interesting that the humanics are all white except for Lucy, then I see your point; however I believe that Lucy was supposed to have been designed by John, designed with Molly in mind I think.

 

 

Yeah they made a point of saying that John created Lucy in the image of Molly.  And it does make sense that all of the Hybrids would be POC because their human origin stock is Molly.

 

What is really interesting is the decision to make the rest of the Humanichs to be white, and not just physical copies of Lucy.  The optics of these white robots hunting & killing POC "others" (as many have stated) are just all wrong.  But was this a conscious decision, with the producers knowingly making some sort of overt point?  White men killing brown folks?  Some sort of Nazi analogy with the Aryans & Genocide?   Or just Network blindness?

[Neurochick]

I think it was a conscious decision because the Humanics were created by this evil, nasty company that probably killed John, whereas Lucy was designed by John, who was one of the good guys.  

[Big Mother]

I'm confused about 2 things here. 1)How the heck did Lucy get out of Standby mode? Ithought if Humanichs are in standby or powered down, they can't wake up. Did Ethan wake her remotely?But you see him talking to Charlie at that time. (Btw, how did Ethan know to come save Julie, and how did he 'kill' Lucy?)

2) Sooooo the Humanichs killed the entire Hybrid population. And... no huge celebration? Where's anna?Where's Toby?Wheres the Secretary or whoever she was? Meetings were interrupted because of one hybrid kill, and there's zero celebration after the mission is accomplished? We just go straight into the sad stuff?

Lastly, my phone rang just as 'Stay tuned for scenes from our next episod came on and I missed what happens next week.Can someone write it for me (In spoiler tags I guess)?

[Human]

My point is that as a producer, Halle Berry could probably influence the casting.  I see the issue, but it would make zero sense if the hybrids were all white with blonde hair and blue eyes, especially since Molly is supposed to be the mother of them all.  

 

Now if you're saying that it's interesting that the humanics are all white except for Lucy, then I see your point; however I believe that Lucy was supposed to have been designed by John, designed with Molly in mind I think.

Literally no one has said the hybrids should be white.  It would make zero sense, as you say, to cast an African American woman and then have her biological offspring look nothing like her.  Discussing subtext does not mean that anyone is suggesting that certain portrayals or explorations of race shouldn't exist.  That would be like if someone said "hey, I've noticed XYZ about women in this show" and someone responded with "well, it wouldn't make sense not to cast any women."  

[ribboninthesky1]

Lastly, I could not help but notice how in this episode all the humanics with the exception of Lucy were white men, that took out the majority minority aliens. And now the only alien/hybrid left for us to connect with (I’m sure there are more out there based on what Molly’s son said) is Molly. I’m sure the show hasn’t thought that far, how this looks but it was like a neon sign in this episode.

 

True. 

 

Yes, and it was Terra and Ares, who Ahdu said with his literal dying breath were evil. I hope there are some good ones left too, because otherwise:I've been noticing and commenting from the beginning about the odd/disturbing use of ethnic minorities in this show, and finally I'm not the only one seeing it. High five?

Lol yeah, it was only a few episodes ago that you and I vaguely mentioned the racial subtext and I believe the general reaction then was everyone thinking we were crazy.  I've noticed that the last two episodes the subtext has been embraced.

 

The original racial subtext discussion from episode 3 was centered on the 1) assumption that the non-white hybrids were evil, 2) how the side of the humans were mostly white, and 3) the perception of Molly choosing the "white" side when she shot Toby, thinking he was Adu.  What's happened is quite the opposite of that. The hybrids have been shown to be just as human and wanting to co-exist peacefully, cast in a sympathetic light, and wanting to simply be left alone.  Two hybrids who can't be trusted is no where near the same thing as the entire species.  

 

Also, Molly has made her choice - her allegiance is with the hybrids. The humans and humanichs, who are mostly white, seem like predators and invaders in relation to the non-white hybrids, which has been made apparent in the last couple of episodes, and that's the racial subtext people are now commenting on.  The episode 3 discussion about racial subtext is the very opposite of what's actually happened on the show. 

 

In that same discussion, I explicitly shared my concerns about potential racial subtext, in terms of Lucy being the "bad" humanich, and Ethan being the "good" one. And later, that Ethan would be the one to take Lucy out.  I was wrong about the method (I assumed he would remotely deactivate her), but everything else so far has played out how I assumed it would. Even though the other humanichs shown are mostly white males, there is also a perception that they're mostly innocent because they're only following their programming.  Lucy is the only one shown to be an independent thinker, manipulative, and a bit bloodthirsty.  

 

Anyway, maybe it's because I don't care much about JD, but the last few episodes have sure been heavy-handed with the "you're a good man, and a hero, JD" stuff.  Um, okay, show, I never thought he was a "bad" man, but I have seen Molly lose just about everyone she's loved, and is now dying herself.  I sure hope she has some semblance of a happily ever after.  Girlfriend has been put through the ringer. For me, she's the moral center of the show.    

Edited August 13, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[Neurochick]

Maybe all of this has been deliberate.  The point being that first impressions aren't always correct.  At first Molly thought the aliens were bad, and so did we, the audience.  Now that Molly no longer sees he hybrids as evil, we the audience aren't supposed to.  

 

I think this season is a fable:  People destroy what they don't understand and that action causes the people themselves to be destroyed.  (or almost destroyed)

[shapeshifter]

...But was this a conscious decision, with the producers knowingly making some sort of overt point?  White men killing brown folks?  Some sort of Nazi analogy with the Aryans & Genocide?   Or just Network blindness?

Also, Molly has made her choice - her allegiance is with the hybrids. The humans and humanichs, who are mostly white, seem like predators and invaders in relation to the non-white hybrids, which has been made apparent in the last couple of episodes, and that's the racial subtext people are now commenting on.  The episode 3 discussion about racial subtext is the very opposite of what's actually happened on the show.    

Thanks, guys, for explaining what I was thinking way better than my own attempts. I just want to know if it's accidental or on purpose.

[Black Knight]

It's really interesting what people notice and what people don't: There was an unmistakably black man right in the foreground in the early shots of the Humanichs approaching the camp. I'm honestly not sure how anyone missed him because of the way he was foregrounded and in focus. Then there were shots that included multiple Humanichs dark enough that they could have been black or Latino or, yes, white. And as the Humanichs walked away after the bloodbath, there was the same black man from the start of the sequence, walking side by side by another unmistakably black man. And, of course, there's Lucy.

 

Perhaps it says something about how pervasive these black/white tropes have been, how deeply rooted in our psyches, that it's possible for viewers to look at a group that includes multiple POC and miss them so completely that they say the group was all white, because the group they were attacking were all POC. If one group is all POC, perhaps the mind automatically assumes the other group must be all white because that is the subtext we're used to. Or maybe it's just inattentional blindness, similar to that famous visual "invisible gorilla" test, where volunteers watched a video of basketball players and were supposed to keep track of how many passes one team made while ignoring the other team, and the volunteers were so caught up in it that around half of them completely missed the person in a gorilla suit that walked through. In other words, if one's only looking for white people, then white people are all one will see. I don't know if either of those is the real answer, or if it's something else altogether, but whatever the reason for it, it is interesting that multiple POC were just completely overlooked and as a result we have a discussion about an all-white group taking out a group of POC.

 

I'm with the poster upthread who said that Charlie should have let Lucy kill Julie first, then taken her out (well, Ethan took her out in the end, but it's the principle of the thing). Not only would Julie be most welcomely gone from the show, Charlie would have the perfect explanation to give the government for why he had to shut Lucy down: She turned on and killed one of her own creators! I hope this isn't the end for Kiersey Clemons - she was playing a robot, after all. Even if the original Lucy mind stays shut down, the government could always decide to re-use the robot body and install a new Humanich mind, thus allowing KC to stick around.

 

I really wasn't expecting to hear that Terra is not to be trusted. It was obvious that Ares would be given as one, but aside from his being blatantly anti-human and prone to violence, he's also a grown hybrid. Terra is still so young. It's scary to think what it is she could have said or done to convince Ahdu she can't be trusted. Maybe Terra's mind control isn't restricted only to humans, but works on hybrids too? I can see that deeply concerning Ahdu. Though it's a wee bit hypocritical of him, if that's what it is.

 

Humanity remains at a fascinating crossroads in this series: Either go the hybrid route, or continue to take the risk of having a bunch of robot soldiers.

[Latverian Diplomat]

I am left wondering how the other Humanichs that are supposedly based on Lucy's source code are going to behave now... Did they ever think designing robots to kill human looking people would be a bad idea ?

 

I suppose it depends on whether they were supposed to get their limiters from Lucy's template or if that was a separate install. If it was separate, then most likely they all got it and Lucy was the only one that was "free".

 

I'm not really feeling the hybrid love (or the Lucy hate). Between all those women, a few astronauts, and many soldiers, they killed a lot of people. And they seemed to be still divided about the whole idea of not killing a whole lot more. I actually thought it was kind of emotionally satisfying when their killer mindf*ck powers didn't work on the humanics, at least until the shooting started. 

 

As for Lucy, she was acting in what she saw as her own best interests, and didn't wanted to be treated like property. A human resisting a lobotomy might be excused for using lethal force (though Lucy's greater strength and abilities gave her other options, it's true.).

[Latverian Diplomat]

It's really interesting what people notice and what people don't: There was an unmistakably black man right in the foreground in the early shots of the Humanichs approaching the camp. I'm honestly not sure how anyone missed him because of the way he was foregrounded and in focus. Then there were shots that included multiple Humanichs dark enough that they could have been black or Latino or, yes, white. And as the Humanichs walked away after the bloodbath, there was the same black man from the start of the sequence, walking side by side by another unmistakably black man. And, of course, there's Lucy.

 

Sorry, but that's diversity Republican convention style. There's clearly a whole lot of white dudes there, and if someone who comes away with the impression that "wow, those robots sure are mostly white, and all dudes" they are not just seeing what they want to see because they have a chip on their shoulder.

 

Personally I don't think the show is trying to do this. I think that when they put out a casting call for "army dudes, minimal pay, free lunch maybe" a whole lot of white dudes show up. That's TV casting. If the show's casting folks are careless, however, they do send a message that probably wasn't intended.

 

Furthermore, if the original plan was to use the humanics for covert discovery and assassination of hybrids, then one would think that ethnic and gender diversity would have been a plus for that mission. The information that the hybrids were conveniently gathered in one spot that could be addressed with a military style assault came late in the day. From an internal consistency standpoint, we should expect to see quite a diverse set of humanics. So whatever else it was, this seems like a missed opportunity for the show to follow through on the logic of its own story.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Latverian Diplomat

[ribboninthesky1]

I read my post again to ensure that I made the distinction of mostly white in relation to the humans and humanichs.  Which is accurate.  I didn't mention the 2-3 non-white people I saw among the humanichs because that wasn't relevant to the racial subtext and optics discussion. Of course, a great way to mostly avoid racial minefields would have been to cast just about everyone, whether human, hybrid, or humanich, as non-white.  But we all know that wouldn't happen. 

 

I'm not really feeling the hybrid love (or the Lucy hate). Between all those women, a few astronauts, and many soldiers, they killed a lot of people. And they seemed to be still divided about the whole idea of not killing a whole lot more. I actually thought it was kind of emotionally satisfying when their killer mindf*ck powers didn't work on the humanics, at least until the shooting started. 

 

It's been a while since I watched season one, but I thought the astronauts killed each other.  As for the other violence, I think self-defense is a reasonable explanation. The mothers were killed by the hybrid babies' birth, which is awful, but not the fault of the hybrid babies, either.  The show hasn't addressed if the human women willingly slept with Adu (and others?), or if they used their hybrid mojo. I believe others have questioned the consent of these women, which are valid questions, though I assumed the women were willing participants. 

 

As for Lucy serving her best interest - I don't know how suddenly targeting Molly satisfies that. I liked that she was an independent thinker, but I knew early on that she would go to the dark side. She very well could be resurrected and redeemed, though. Especially if this season goes to 12-13 episodes again, there's still time to do that. 

 

I think the show made a valid point in this episode - there's good and bad in humans and humanichs.  The hybrids are no different, in my view.  There's good, bad, and everything in between.    

[ribboninthesky1]

Maybe all of this has been deliberate.  The point being that first impressions aren't always correct.  At first Molly thought the aliens were bad, and so did we, the audience.  Now that Molly no longer sees he hybrids as evil, we the audience aren't supposed to.  

 

I think this season is a fable:  People destroy what they don't understand and that action causes the people themselves to be destroyed.  (or almost destroyed)

 

Good point.  I thought the aliens had nefarious plans in season one, but after little Adu did not hurt the baby or seemingly manipulate the family who took him in during episode one of this season, I wasn't sure where the show was going.  

[Actionmage]

I think this season is a fable:  People destroy what they don't understand and that action causes the people themselves to be destroyed.  (or almost destroyed)

 

My take away is just next door to yours: In the words of Nolan's Harvey Dent, " You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."  Toby is at the villain end, JD is still with us, as is Molly and Charlie. Ethan, Julie and Lucy can change. Not sure about The Judge. Anna is definitely a villain. As to the hybrids, we will see where Terra and Ares/Aries place themselves.

 

Furthermore, if the original plan was to use the humanics for covert discovery and assassination of hybrids,

 

I was guessing that that was the reason Helios addressed Lucy, and not Lucas, at the end of the previous episode. It was also why Helios let down his guard and was kidnapped/ killed and brought back to Toby's workplace(?). He wanted to understand why she was different.

It's been a while since I watched season one, but I thought the astronauts killed each other.

 

 I remember the aliens' giving hallucinations to the Earth astronauts and then, when they came back, the males went violent and paranoid and generally killed themselves. One or two who helped Molly last season were able to fight off the urge. Molly and Katie, minimum, were impregnated. Katie's crew went insane due to the spores ( and male response to the spores) and Katie was presumed dead before Molly's 13 months alone. Only less than a handful of people  knew what her father did: that Katie suspected that she was pregnant, but that was immediately overshadowed by everyone else on her station/ship losing their minds and killing each other and Katie's ship being lost.

 

So yes, they killed each other, but it was a side effect of the alien spores on the crew.

[Latverian Diplomat]

It's been a while since I watched season one, but I thought the astronauts killed each other.  As for the other violence, I think self-defense is a reasonable explanation. The mothers were killed by the hybrid babies' birth, which is awful, but not the fault of the hybrid babies, either.  The show hasn't addressed if the human women willingly slept with Adu (and others?), or if they used their hybrid mojo. I believe others have questioned the consent of these women, which are valid questions, though I assumed the women were willing participants.

 

As for Lucy serving her best interest - I don't know how suddenly targeting Molly satisfies that. I liked that she was an independent thinker, but I knew early on that she would go to the dark side. She very well could be resurrected and redeemed, though. Especially if this season goes to 12-13 episodes again, there's still time to do that. 

 

I think the show made a valid point in this episode - there's good and bad in humans and humanichs.  The hybrids are no different, in my view.  There's good, bad, and everything in between.    

All of the astronauts that died, died from interacting with the spores. There was at least one (Katie?) who died from a pregnancy. Molly would have died if Adu was not extracted first. Sean would have died when the Seraphim station crashed or whatever. 

 

Once Adu knew the pregnancies killed the mothers, he was committing premeditated murder. None of the women consented to die for his cause, so sexual consent is irrelevant (though it certainly looked as though mojo was in play in those hookups). So now, I won't shed any tears over Adhu. It's not self defense to kill people because you want to use their body parts.

 

Lucy assessed correctly that Molly was working with the hybrids, and that she was a target of the mission. Yes, she may have wanted to kill Molly for what she saw as Ethan's best interest. Even so she didn't threaten to kill Molly until Molly took a bullet for Terra. In that sense, Lucy shooting Molly was no different than any of the humanics who killed any of the hybrids. I don't agree with wiping out the hybrids if the humanics can capture and contain them instead. But I see why killing them was the order they were given.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Latverian Diplomat

[jhlipton]

I hope Lucy's gone too, Neurochick. No way they could redeem her now. 

 

Kiersey Clemons is "easy on the eyes", at least for me, so I hope they reboot her 

 

Personally I don't think the show is trying to do this. I think that when they put out a casting call for "army dudes, minimal pay, free lunch maybe" a whole lot of white dudes show up. That's TV casting. If the show's casting folks are careless, however, they do send a message that probably wasn't intended.

 

We should probably take all discussion of race to Small Talk, or its own thread.  I think it could be a very interesting discussion.  I personally believe that a lot of TV (and society) suffers from institutional racism, but if a fair number of Humanichs were POCs, that might not be the case here.

[shapeshifter]

It was also why Helios let down his guard and was kidnapped/ killed and brought back to Toby's workplace(?)...

He wasn't mentioned this episode. I'm wondering if he will disappear from the story arc. He was the "good" alien, right? "Good" like:

I think the show made a valid point in this episode - there's good and bad in humans and humanichs.  The hybrids are no different, in my view.  There's good, bad, and everything in between.

Charlie said to Ethan that there were also good humans and bad humans. He was simplifying it because Ethan is supposed to be like a child, but Charlie was also speaking to the audience, but we've seen characters be neither all good nor all evil on the show--or was that just retconning? Edited August 14, 2015 by shapeshifter

[ribboninthesky1]

I got the impression that Adu (and others?) stopped having sex with humans once they realized that hybrid births kill the mother.  I thought Adu slept with a lot of women within a relatively condensed time period, so he wouldn't have known right away what was happening to them. As an aside, it does raise the question for me if hybrids can procreate with other hybrids. And didn't the Japanese woman who was questioned (and eventually murdered) survive the birth? She had the same special gene or whatever that Molly did, so I'm not certain Molly would have died if Adu wasn't extracted early.  

 

As for the astronauts from season one, I wasn't disputing that they were manipulated by the alien spores.  But when I read this:

 

Between all those women, a few astronauts, and many soldiers, they killed a lot of people.

 

I interpreted it as the aliens directly killed the astronauts. I thought the only male astronaut that came into contact with the spores and actually made it back to Earth was the one who ended up killed by the space program's security guy. I just discovered that season one is available on Amazon Prime, so given how season two is laid out so far, it'll be interesting for me to watch it again.      

Edited August 14, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[HalcyonDays]

We should probably take all discussion of race to Small Talk, or its own thread.

 

Yes, please do. The discussion can stay here also, as long as it pertains to discussion about the episode itself. But please DO NOT start snipping at each other over casting and what people think they saw. There was already a few thinly veiled insults being tossed around in here. Thanks and much appreciated.

[ribboninthesky1]

Lucy assessed correctly that Molly was working with the hybrids, and that she was a target of the mission. Yes, she may have wanted to kill Molly for what she saw as Ethan's best interest. Even so she didn't threaten to kill Molly until Molly took a bullet for Terra. In that sense, Lucy shooting Molly was no different than any of the humanics who killed any of the hybrids. I don't agree with wiping out the hybrids if the humanics can capture and contain them instead. But I see why killing them was the order they were given.

 

Lucy didn't need to assess whether Molly was working with the hybrids - Toby already knew that.  One of the other humanichs, in the previous episode, told Lucy that their orders was recon only, which was after Lucy wanted to take Molly out.  And in this episode, the humanichs are sent to take out the hybrids.  To my recollection, Lucy was not told that Molly was the target of the mission.  She spotted Molly, and went after her. When she found Molly and Terra, she had her weapon trained on Molly before she took a shot at Terra.  And once Molly went down, Lucy could have shot Terra anyway, if that was her goal.  She didn't.  She decided to finish Molly off, and would have, if JD hadn't stopped her.  

 

To me, that's not the same as the humanichs indiscriminately taking out any hybrids they could. 

[jhlipton]

Charlie was also speaking to the audience, but we've seen characters be neither all good nor all evil on the show--or was that just retconning?

 

I saw that, too, but thought that Ethan was his audience, more than us, and making it more complicated  would have confused him.

[DearEvette]

I don't have much more to add than was laready said about this ep, but I did want to say I really liked a couple of scenes:

 

1- With Molly and Kinsey (I don't know his name on this show, only his name on Mad men) in the diner.  I think Halle brought off cool, unemotional, get-shit-done very well.  She is always required to be so highly emoitonal in her scenes that it is nice to see her be resolute and and hard.

 

2- The series of scenes with Melina Kanakaredes.  I thought the whole thing played out really well.  When JD was trying to explain to her why it isn't right to just turn over Adu just because he is an Alien we could see it was really just futile.  She had to experience his humanity to really get was JD was trying to explain.  And then in the end she just gave Molly the hug because the woman had just watched her son die.

[SlackerInc]

I freeze-framed, and FWIW: the first clear look we get at the Humanics, there are two black men, one Hispanic (or maybe Native American) man, one white woman, and four white men.  The next shot has a black man most prominently in the foreground.  There are later shots however where it looks like all white dudes.

 

That Charlie nor Julie recognized the possibility that they were in a compromised building/setting makes me angry. They aren't stupid people. If the whole conversation was a lure to see how deep the Humanics distrust went? I'd buy that, but no. Instead of the two robotics and AI experts realizing they were behind in this chess match, they kept playing like they weren't in a game!

 

Yeah, that was a bit of a facepalm.  There have been many echoes of "2001" in this show since the first season.  In this case, it was reminiscent of the scene in which 

Bowman and Poole discuss their worries about HAL.  In that case, they at least took the precaution of sitting inside a pod where HAL couldn't hear them; but as he reminded them later, they forgot he could read lips through the glass.

 When will humans learn not to plot against AIs where they can be observed?  Especially since Charlie already knew that secret spying eyes in that home were a major hazard!

 

(Speaking of cribbing from sci-fi masterpieces, we've also seen a definite inspiration from "Blade Runner" in recent episodes, with

"replicants" who have a fierce desire to undo their expiration dates, and attempt to force their makers to do just that despite it being fundamentally impossible in both cases.

)

I do agree with you more generally that there were issues with some dumbed-down writing in this episode.  Some other examples I had a problem with:

 

--What kind of badass robot military team allows JD to cruise in there and save Molly, and doesn't kill or apprehend him, not to mention leaving so many hybrid survivors?  I mean, okay: they "did finish the job" by spraying the virus.  But why would they take that chance, walk away and give the hybrids time to plot something (reminds me of the classic error of the Bond or Batman villain), or even let them run amok before they succumb?

 

--Molly seemed to think that if she turned herself in, they don't really care about J.D. and can let him go.  And I suspect this may well actually happen, although that remains to be seen.  That logic made sense concerning J.D.'s daughter, sure.  But if this show is going to be even remotely realistic, J.D. took up arms against his own government's military!  Even if he's not, as a U.S. citizen, sent to Gitmo, it's hard to see how he would realistically see the light of day for years if ever.

 

--Another unrealistic element about Molly turning herself in (and this is on a show that IMO usually is better than this) is the idea that they would just take her right in to command HQ.  She is a hybrid who has demonstrated mind-control powers!  How do they know she won't just take over the whole inner circle?  Too many cases of doing the shortcut where the audience knows so-and-so is "good", so the logical precautions and reactions to their actions aren't taken.

One more issue I had might not be the fault of the writers but a mistake on Lucy's part, although it would seem to be a fairly glaring one.  Lucy's gambit appeared to give her a lot of leverage over Charlie at first glance.  But it very quickly thereafter occurred to me that she hasn't read her Machiavelli well enough to see that she is playing with fire and potentially hastening her own demise. Couldn't Charlie just go in and change that expiration date but without preventing it from killing her?  His near-fatal mistake, really, was telling Julie rather than just resolving to do it without saying anything and then filling her in later.

Edited August 19, 2015 by SlackerInc

[ribboninthesky1]

To be even more precise, when the Humanichs open fire on the hybrids, the shots include all white men.  Whether that was deliberate by the show, I don't know, but the racial implications of that is what others brought up, and were valid points.   

 

How would Toby and team know that Molly has mind control capabilities?  They've not been around when it's happened. By the time Molly turns herself in, she's weak, presumably dying, from the virus.  It makes sense they're not not concerned about her doing harm.  Maybe it's shown in previews for tonight's episode, but during this one, Molly didn't mention JD at all when she turned herself in.   

 

Molly didn't want JD to turn himself in, but I wasn't clear on what their plan was when they left his ex-wife with Adu.  John proclaimed that he and Toby both knew what Molly was, but how would Toby know she's hybrid? I thought he only knew that she sided with them.  

 

1- With Molly and Kinsey (I don't know his name on this show, only his name on Mad men) in the diner.  I think Halle brought off cool, unemotional, get-shit-done very well.  She is always required to be so highly emoitonal in her scenes that it is nice to see her be resolute and and hard.

 

I'm rewatching season 1, and there's more of this side to Molly. I think she also demonstrated that side of her when she was trying to negotiate with Toby.  It reminded me that my primary problem with the JD character is that Molly has been too reliant on and vulnerable with someone she barely knows.  Molly's really been isolated this season.  I understand why to some degree, but I wish the show had decided to bring someone who had an existing relationship with Molly back this season.  If it couldn't be John, it should have been Sam.  Given the way it all went down last season, this season's arc could have been a way to reinforce that friendship and show Sam on Molly's side.   

[Big Mother]

 

How would Toby and team know that Molly has mind control capabilities?  They've not been around when it's happened. By the time Molly turns herself in, she's weak, presumably dying, from the virus.  It makes sense they're not not concerned about her doing harm.  Maybe it's shown in previews for tonight's episode, but during this one, Molly didn't mention JD at all when she turned herself in.   

 

 

 

When she broke into the GSC in the previous episode, she mind-controlled the security guards so that she could escape. I presume the guards told Toby.

[ribboninthesky1]

I remember that scene, though I assumed they would have no memory of what happened.  

[Big Mother]

When Molly does the same trick to JD's exwife she does have a feeling that something weird has taken place, and when Helios/Ares mind-control JD for a minute at the compound he's also aware of it. So maybe in some way the guards did too. I don't know.

[SlackerInc]

Yeah, I think people who have had this happen to them are aware that they've been skullf*cked.  Especially since the GSC has a lot of experience dealing with hybrids who have this power.  Plus that guy Molly met in the diner said they knew she was basically a hybrid herself.

 

BTW, please don't respond with any information about tonight's episode, at least not without spoiler tags.  I am a cordcutter and I have to wait until Sunday to watch the ep on Amazon Prime.