A Place For Questions & Educational Links

[operalover]

Good lord my last post was deleted.  Okay well I have another question and I hope this post is not deleted but I don't hold out much hope.

 

I have a relative who is a male to female transgender person. I also have a friend who is the same. The friend I only met after the transition. The relative I knew all my life as the opposite sex. I am having difficulty not referring to the relative as "she" and I still think of her as a man. The friend I have no problems with thinking of as a woman. Is this just human nature or am I transphobic?

 

Like I have trouble not thinking about Bruce Jenner when I see Caitlyn. I think of the Bruce because I knew her as a man for 65 years. She won the medal as a man, no? So this is becoming hard for me. 

Edited July 22, 2015 by operalover

[Human]

It's just human nature.  It seems like you're clearly making the effort, but the transition doesn't happen overnight for anyone.  You have all of these very real memories with these people who you referred to a certain way for years, maybe even decades.  That doesn't just go away overnight.  As long as you continue to make the effort, great.  Eventually new memories will be created and referring to them by their chosen name and preferred pronoun will become the norm for you.  

[Honey]

I can't imagine how incredible it must feel to be transgender, and finally have this being discussed openly and to finally feel some acceptance.  There is a long way to go, but at least a shift has begun toward the day when it's no big deal. 

 

 

I love Jazz' therapist, Ms. Marilyn.  What a lovely lady.

[greekmom]

Question. Has anyone noticed that Jazz's face looks like its streaked a bit sometimes? I am wondering if it's that she just wears a bit too much makeup or lighting issues.

[JocelynCavanaugh]

Question. Has anyone noticed that Jazz's face looks like its streaked a bit sometimes? I am wondering if it's that she just wears a bit too much makeup or lighting issues.

 

I noticed that too. I think it's nerves/being flushed. It happens to me, too, but it's more obvious because I'm not tan like her.

[greekmom]

I noticed that too. I think it's nerves/being flushed. It happens to me, too, but it's more obvious because I'm not tan like her.

Oh good. I was thinking it was heavy makeup and thought she is way too young for that much foundation.  She really has a pretty face and I have to admit I am really enjoying this family over the religious zealots of Sisterwives or Duggers and the trash of Honey Boo Boo.  The twin boys are an absolute hoot and I think that Jazz looks so much like a mini Ari.  

I hope a future episode has her mixing with other trans kids. But overall she is such a sweet and lovely girl. Very refreshing for TLC.

[TEEVEE]

She is sweet and lovely. She is darling quite frankly. As a mom myself, I would be as concerned as her mom is. But having that burden of assisting to change the gender of your child, I do not know if I could do that. To me it is a divine assignment. I am a Christian. And I don't know if I could intervene with that, never knowing if I was doing the right thing.

[godonlyknows]

I've got a question about something the mom mentioned in the first episode. She said she only let Jazz hang out with friends once they knew and whose parents knew that Jazz was transgender and were accepting of that fact.  I understand her fear of rejection or possible unpleasant reactions at finding out it but it seemed odd to me (as someone with no personal experience) that one of the very first things people ever know about Jazz is the fact she's transgender rather than her personality or anything else. Is this the usual approach people take or are some more likely to get to know people  and then "oh by the way ..." at a later date? Or is it different for everyone?

[jacksgirl]

godonlyknows,

I wondered about that too. One would think that Jazz's personal life and the family decisions about her would be fodder for many in their community. I am fairly certain that most people in Jazz's school know about her. I would allow (encourage) my children to be kind to Jazz and try to explain why she is who she is. There are times when I am so excited for the next generation to be rid of prejudice against the LGBT community. I can dream, can't I?

Edited July 23, 2015 by jacksgirl

[Human]

This story may be triggering as it includes violence against children, but this was immediately what came to mind when the mom said the other parents have to know and be ok about it.

 

My partner and I work with transgender youth in our area and we hear some horrible stories from them.  There is one who socially transitioned.  She was at a sleepover and for whatever reason her genitals were seen.  It's unclear who at the sleepover knew she was transgender, but the father didn't and he became upset and turned violent against the girl striking her multiple times until kicking her out of the house with only the pajamas she was wearing.  He also called the police.  There were a lot of accusations made against this girl but they can all be summed up that the way her genitals looked meant that she had come to this party with the sole purpose of sexually violating the other girls.  The transgirl and her mother were unable to successfully file charges against the man for his assaulting her because he easily claimed that he was protecting his daughter from a sex crime.  The police department was not at all sympathetic to the child who had actually been assaulted, and instead made comments like it was her own fault for hiding herself that way.  

 

This is not an uncommon story.  I've heard so many variations of this, though this one sticks with me most for how the community fall out from this drove this sweet young girl to attempting suicide.  The community was outraged because they felt they had a right to know that she was transgender, that they had a right to know intimate information about the genitals of children.  

 

Anyway, it's very unfortunate that right now transgender people, especially children, find themselves in a position where they are so defined by this one thing about them, but there are some very serious safety concerns that would make a family decide that it's important to know what the parents of other children have to say about their transgender child.  

[Pallida]

Human (love the name), I deeply appreciate you sharing that.  Society needs more awareness of victim blaming and really putting events in context.  (I realize context won't break down ideologically-driven reactions, but I hold onto a smidgen of optimism that society can change.)  

 

I thought I'd share a link to the Williams Institute at UCLA.  http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu They "are dedicated to conducting rigorous, independent research on sexual orientation and gender identity law and public policy."   

[godonlyknows]

 

Anyway, it's very unfortunate that right now transgender people, especially children, find themselves in a position where they are so defined by this one thing about them, but there are some very serious safety concerns that would make a family decide that it's important to know what the parents of other children have to say about their transgender child.

 

Thanks for explaining, Human. I feel so angry that some people are so intolerant that when Jazz (and any other transgender person) walks into a room of strangers she has to worry about being in such danger.

[Taylorh2]

I heard Jazz say that she wasn't sure if she wanted to get "bottom surgery"

 

Huh ?    That doesn't make any sense.

[Bastet]

Top surgery and bottom surgery are just non-technical umbrella terms for the gender confirmation surgeries a transgender person may undergo, differentiated between those happening on the top portion of the body and those on the bottom portion.  So Jazz was referring to vaginoplasty.

[Taylorh2]

Yes, I understand. What I don't understand is why she wouldn't want to have "bottom surgery"

 

Meaning:why wouldn't she want to have the penis removed and a vagina created ?

[Human]

Yes, I understand. What I don't understand is why she wouldn't want to have "bottom surgery"

 

Meaning:why wouldn't she want to have the penis removed and a vagina created ?

This is sort of like asking why not every woman with tiny breasts wouldn't have breast augmentation to have larger breasts.  The short answer is going to be 'because she doesn't want it'.  

[CousinAmy]

Yes, I understand. What I don't understand is why she wouldn't want to have "bottom surgery"

 

Meaning:why wouldn't she want to have the penis removed and a vagina created ?

Didn't the doctor say that they didn't want to increase the hormones because it might stunt her growth? If she had surgery, I assume they'd have to use higher doses of hormones. She probably will wait until she reaches full height (early 20s?)  before opting for more aggressive techniques. 

[Human]

Well bottom surgery would be unlikely to be on the table until she is an adult anyway.  

 

I just really want to make it clear that surgical interventions are not something that is the right choice for every transgender person.  Even assuming that ever transgender person has access to complete and proper medical care, some will opt for one thing, others might opt out.  For the public, it's really none of our business what someone has going on in their underwear and the appearance of one's genitalia is fairly irrelevant to what gender a person is. 

[BostonBlonde]

This is sort of like asking why not every woman with tiny breasts wouldn't have breast augmentation to have larger breasts. The short answer is going to be 'because she doesn't want it'.

See this I don't get at all but according to this thread saying anything or asking any questions makes you transphobic...

Isnt calling people transphobic judging them too???????? I find it offensive that people here fear asking questions...works both ways.

Edited July 28, 2015 by BostonBlonde

[CousinAmy]

Well bottom surgery would be unlikely to be on the table until she is an adult anyway.  

 

I just really want to make it clear that surgical interventions are not something that is the right choice for every transgender person.  Even assuming that ever transgender person has access to complete and proper medical care, some will opt for one thing, others might opt out.  For the public, it's really none of our business what someone has going on in their underwear and the appearance of one's genitalia is fairly irrelevant to what gender a person is. 

Except it was discussed on camera. Which makes it fair game for honest, respectful questions. If it's really none of our business, don't put it on TV. 

[calliope1975]

I just finished what must be the original TLC special on Jazz. It's titled the same as the show which confused me when I started watching and Jazz was 3 years younger. I thought it answered a lot of questions other people have had about how they've made a lot of their decisions. I understand why they wouldn't rehash it on the new show, but I do understand some of the questions that are arising. I recommend catching it if you're interested. Jazz has such a great personality, as do her brothers, I totally get why she would get her own show. 

[Human]

See this I don't get at all but according to this thread saying anything or asking any questions makes you transphobic...

Isnt calling people transphobic judging them too???????? I find it offensive that people here fear asking questions...works both ways.

No one called you transphobic.  I think you're projecting here...

 

You asked why she wouldn't want to have a specific surgery.  The short answer is because she doesn't want to.  If it's not required to make her feel more comfortable with her body or her gender, then there is no reason for her to have it just to make other people feel more comfortable.  

Except it was discussed on camera. Which makes it fair game for honest, respectful questions. If it's really none of our business, don't put it on TV. 

I made one sentence specifically about Jazz and then moved on to transgender people in general.  The point was to make it clear that surgery is not for everyone. Further, whether or not someone has previously shared information about their genitals does not make the topic fair game all the time.  

[bref]

See this I don't get at all but according to this thread saying anything or asking any questions makes you transphobic...

Isnt calling people transphobic judging them too???????? I find it offensive that people here fear asking questions...works both ways.

 

It seems to me that honest, respectful questions have been given honest, respectful answers and I have to dispute your first statement.

 

Some questions pretty obviously have a hostile undertone. Sometimes it's not even particularly subtle. And if responders address that, I think that's appropriate. But no one has been called transphobic for asking for information that I've seen. In fact, this thread's existence kind of puts that in doubt.

 

I think it's too bad if people fear asking questions, but it's not unreasonable, given the topic and that transphobia actually DOES exist, to ask that you put extra thought into how you ask. 

 

"Criticizing me for being judgmental is just as judgmental" is an argument I see commonly on the intrawebs. I generally find it to be a false equivalency.

Edited July 28, 2015 by radishcake

[radishcake]

I think it's too bad if people fear asking questions, but it's not unreasonable, given the topic and that transphobia actually DOES exist, to ask that you put extra thought into how you ask.

Well put bref. I think we have this thread specifically for asking questions and no one has been called names or even been given hostile reactions from the folks trying to educate. Which I should mention is totally voluntary on their part and very nice of them to do. Everyone who is not completely hostile has been given space to speak and ask questions. I say if you genuinely want to know and ask nicely (even if your terminology is perhaps not quite correct), ask! And then listen to the answers. There's a lot of great info here. 

[BostonBlonde]

the appearance of one's genitalia is fairly irrelevant to what gender a person is...

It is????? I am no way transphobic but saying your genitalia doesn't determine your birth gender? What you choose to identify as later is your business but there is no getting around " Its a boy!" Or "Its a girl!" ( I'm sure those sayings will be considered in poor taste soon as well)

Criticizing me for being judgmental is just as judgmental" is an argument I see commonly on the intrawebs. I generally find it to be a false equivalency.

It may be commonly seen but that doesn't make it untrue.

Ugh sorry quotes aren't working: ETA - quote issues fixed

Edited July 28, 2015 by radishcake
quote issues

[okerry]

Yes, I understand. What I don't understand is why she wouldn't want to have "bottom surgery"

 

Meaning:why wouldn't she want to have the penis removed and a vagina created ?

I can tell you that this is where many, many, people feel very confused and honestly don't understand.

 

Okay, so a person with female gender is born into a male body. They want to live their life entirely as a girl/woman. They are very upset at the thought of going through male puberty, to the point where they receive drugs to block puberty and then estrogen to encourage the body to look as female as possible.

 

But if this person is truly a woman, why would they want to keep a penis??

 

It's a serious question. I'm not talking about someone who can't get surgery due to fear, or cost, or any other reason out of their control.

 

I'm talking about someone who insists they are female in every way but is content to have male genitalia and does not WANT to have it removed and replaced with a vagina. It seems like having that organ in place would be very upsetting to someone who thinks of themselves as a woman. Wouldn't it? I am a woman myself, and yes, that would be very upsetting to me.

 

It's a serious question and I can tell you, this is the part that a lot of folks do NOT understand. You can kick me off the boards again if you want, but I'd appreciate it (and so would many others) if someone would answer this one.

[bref]

It may be commonly seen but that doesn't make it untrue.

 

Well, I clearly feel it is NOT true. "I hate trans people" and "then you are a bigot" are not equivalencies.

[radishcake]

 

I'm talking about someone who insists they are female in every way but is content to have male genitalia and does not WANT to have it removed and replaced with a vagina. It seems like having that organ in place would be very upsetting to someone who thinks of themselves as a woman. Wouldn't it? I am a woman myself, and yes, that would be very upsetting to me.

 

I think the disconnect for your understanding is that there is spectrum of gender. Just as we have all shades of skin color. What one person is comfortable with and feels right with inside their own body is what should be respected. You don't need to know the state of someone's genitals basically is what that means. If I say "hi my name is radishcake" and you say "oh hi! i'm okerry" my next question to you isn't "so do you have a vagina or a penis"?  I would treat you as the gender you are presenting. I wouldn't need any other information than that. Now if you are my sexual partner that might be something I would want to share with you later since you are a person I'm intimate with. How people feel about their own bodies is just how they feel. I think part of what this show (and others about transgender people) wants to do is show that these are all people the same as you and me. 

 

I know you really want a black and white answer to the questions you have but honestly there isn't a black and white answer. All people feel differently about their bodies. Your assertion that "But if this person is truly a woman, why would they want to keep a penis??" is insinuating that in order to be a "true" woman, you have to match up all your parts. That's where we get into a tricky area where it's offensive to talk about "true women" or "normal women" or what have you. 

 

No transgender person EVER has said "hmmm I think I just want to be tricky and call myself a man/woman just to screw around". The transition is so hard and even with new understanding it's still fighting every single day just to exist in a world where you can be safe and feel whole. So when someone says "I'm a man or I'm a woman" I say great. I don't need any other definition. 

 

It's a hard concept I grant you but try to read some of the great links here to stories and really try to feel some empathy and understanding. I hope this helps.

[jacksgirl]

I think we are so ingrained to the dichotomy of boy and girl that thinking of gender as more of a continuum is so difficult for many of us (me included). I have never to my knowledge met a transgender person, but if I ever do, I feel so much more prepared because Cailtin Jenner and Jazz and forums like this have educated me. If you have not watched the John Oliver link posted earlier in this thread by Human, I highly recommend you do. It's funny, but also informative. So happy we have this thread.

[estellasmum]

I think we are so ingrained to the dichotomy of boy and girl that thinking of gender as more of a continuum is so difficult for many of us (me included). I have never to my knowledge met a transgender person, but if I ever do, I feel so much more prepared because Cailtin Jenner and Jazz and forums like this have educated me. If you have not watched the John Oliver link posted earlier in this thread by Human, I highly recommend you do. It's funny, but also informative. So happy we have this thread.

 

 

This. I work in a school, and while I, also, have not knowingly come across a transgender student, I am grateful to everyone on this topic who has helped educate all of us. I try to do my best to educate myself about areas in which I can help relate better to the  individual needs of some of my students, (such as autism, ADHD, homelessness, ODD, PANDAS, etc) and it is nice to have some information about a subject beforehand, rather than scrambling to educate myself after I end up with a student who needs my understanding and support in areas that I know nothing about.

 

(Edited because I don't think anyone needs to read what I've said 3 times in one post.)

Edited July 28, 2015 by estellasmum

[CarolMK]

I have a question about the hormones Jazz is taking. Will she need to be on them for the rest of her life, or can she stop at a certain age, say 50 (when most women start going through menopause)? 

[Human]

It is????? I am no way transphobic but saying your genitalia doesn't determine your birth gender? What you choose to identify as later is your business but there is no getting around " Its a boy!" Or "Its a girl!" ( I'm sure those sayings will be considered in poor taste soon as well)

 

 I meant beyond the day that we are assigned a sex by a doctor for our legal documents.  For most of the rest of the person's life (outside of intimate relationships or health/parental care), their genitals are completely irrelevant to those who meet them.  We see a baby in a stroller and we don't ask whether there is a vulva or a scrotum beneath that diaper.  The public generally is not doing any visual inspections of a person's genitals nor do they need that information to accept whether someone is a boy or a girl.  They are because they say they are not because they showed us their privates.  

[radishcake]

I have a question about the hormones Jazz is taking. Will she need to be on them for the rest of her life, or can she stop at a certain age, say 50 (when most women start going through menopause)? 

I honestly don't know CarolMK. The research I've done on the subject doesn't usually say how long the treatments must be taken but I know that it's for a long time through adulthood and it varies person to person. I know MY hormones are rampant and crazy and I'm 45 so...YMMV I guess. :)

[CousinAmy]

I was on HRT in my 40s because the doctor thought they'd help my mood swings. They didn't, and since the doctor didn't want me on them for much longer, I stopped taking them. I "transitioned" - I mean, went through menopause! - without hot flashes, thank goddess. 

[CarolMK]

My sister and I were talking about this show last night and she believes Jazz needs to be on hormones for life because men produce testosterone their entire lives..and she mentioned Cait Jenner is 65 and still taking estrogen, so it does make sense. We were commiserating on the whole menopause issue, she's just now finished at age 56 and I'm 52 with no end in sight as of yet. The fact that Jazz's doctor did not want to increase the estrogen level too quickly because it would affect her height was something I didn't know previously. I started my cycles a month after I turned 12 and stopped growing by 14 and ended up at 5'4, the shortest in my family where everyone else was 5 '8 or taller (including our 84 year old mom). Jazz is only 5'1 and 14 so I wonder how much growth she will have in the future. 

[radishcake]

CarolMK I grew all my height by the time I was twelve and started my cycles very early. I am also the shortest in my family. That's an interesting correlation that I never thought about. 

[PupCal]

I have a question about the hormones Jazz is taking. Will she need to be on them for the rest of her life, or can she stop at a certain age, say 50 (when most women start going through menopause)? 

She will most likely be on estrogen for the rest of her life. As well as an anti-androgen (combats the testosterone her body produces) unless she gets an orchiectomy (testicle removal). I am deliberately ignoring the genitalia debate here except I will say that I know a couple trans women who are fine with their "male" genitalia and don't want bottom surgery.

[walnutqueen]

My goodness; we, the children of the 50s, 60s, 70s would have never guessed THIS is the world we would live in.  L-O-L-A Lola was our mantra, as was social responsibility, acceptance, and saving our planet and humanity.  Where the FUCK did we go awry???

 

I cannot believe this is still an "issue" half a decade later.

 

Small wonder I retired from humanity...

[momofsquid]

I noticed last night that Jazz is currently the same height as her older sister and their mother. My first thought was that she's most likely going to stay that height. But then I remembered that her body thinks it's male, and I didn't even think to check her brothers' height. Does she have a better chance at growing taller because she has male anatomy, since men are generally taller? Or does the hormone treatment keep her down to a more average female height? Can they actually manipulate her height with hormones? I have no clue how any of this works and I would be interested to know whether the doctors have any predictions.

[radishcake]

Fun fact: there is a direct correlation between height and onset of menstruation. The vast majority of women will remain the height they were when they first began menstruating. Not much growth happens after that milestone, because of the effects of hormones on the growth plates. It was interesting for me to see Jazz get to (in effect) choose her height by opting to delay estrogen. I'm 5'1" and I would have loved to have the choice :P

Wow! Guess I'm glad I was tall for a 10 year old! :D (I'm 5'3")

[CousinAmy]

I noticed last night that Jazz is currently the same height as her older sister and their mother. My first thought was that she's most likely going to stay that height. But then I remembered that her body thinks it's male, and I didn't even think to check her brothers' height. Does she have a better chance at growing taller because she has male anatomy, since men are generally taller? Or does the hormone treatment keep her down to a more average female height? Can they actually manipulate her height with hormones? I have no clue how any of this works and I would be interested to know whether the doctors have any predictions.

I think that's more a question of DNA, since tall parents generally have taller children, and that's not dictated by hormones. On my dad's side of the family the men were all short, and none of my male cousins or my brother is more than just average height. I think my brother, at age 68, is only about 5'5".

[radishcake]

Is everything that's been done to Jazz reversible? It seems to me that her parents headed in this direction while she was very young. If this is what Jazz wants, great. I'm sure her parents were trying to act in her best interest. I just don't think that anything irreversible should be done until Jazz is an adult and can make decisions for herself.

Everything that's been "done" to her has been under a psychiatrist's, endocrinologist's, pediatrician's, and psychologist's care. I'm sure they've worked out whether these decisions are in her best interest.

[Human]

What doctors were involved wasn't my question. My question was is the treatment reversible. Jazz has the right to make her own decision as an adult. If she wants to be a woman, great. If her parents made a mistake, can it be reversed?

The point of listing the doctors involved is to note the fact that this isn't just a decision that parents can make on their own.  If her parents made a mistake, one of the many people on the care team would catch it.  Besides, parents generally aren't allowed to make diagnoses, create treatment plans, or write prescriptions, even if those parents happen to be trained medical professionals.  

 

There are some aspects of cross-hormone treatment that will not be reversible.  

[purplemonkey]

I watched the "I Am Jazz" documentary on YouTube (she was 11) which is better than the TLC show. It talks a little about her being banned from girls' soccer. I've also watched Frontline's Growing Up Trans.

I do see the potential danger of her being an activist in the public eye. That is just a horrible thought. I don't want to go there in my head. Maybe she can use her TLC money to get a bodyguard?

At the same time, if it's somewhat of a calling for her, it's hard to ignore that. Playing football is also dangerous. There are professional callings for some that can make a person economically challenged. But they do it anyway.

I fully understand that I can't put myself in her shoes as I'm not a trans person. I just hope society keeps improving.

[Human]

Then, I don't approve. I don't think that anyone should make irreversible changes to a minor's body. I think that these are decisions that should be made by an adult.

Hopefully in the very near future it won't be left to the whims of adults deciding whether or not they 'approve' of a child being treated by health care providers when they require treatment  We already allow the state to step in when adults attempt to prevent irreversible changes to a minor's body - such as treatment of cancer - so it's only a matter of time when it's expanded to include all sorts of treatments.

 

Adults shouldn't be allowed to withhold necessary and even lifesaving care from minors.  

Edited July 30, 2015 by Human

[Bastet]

Then I don't approve. I don't think that anyone should make irreversible changes to a minor's body. I think that these are decisions that should be made by an adult. No one has the right to change Jazz's body before she is mature enough to make her own decisions for herself.

 

Parents make medical decisions - some of which are irreversible - for their kids all the time.  And when we're talking specifically about whether or not to block puberty, that decision will have to happen when the patient is a child.  If doctors hadn't intervened, the changes to Jazz's body brought about by male puberty would have been irreversible.  The medical steps they took to prevent that puberty were reversible; the doctor explained Jazz could change her mind, stop taking them, and go through the puberty she'd have gone through earlier.   

 

Jazz had been consistently and happily living as a girl for eight years by the time the parents and doctor endorsed her decision to prevent male puberty.

 

The I Am Jazz documentary filmed when Jazz was eleven shows what she and her family learned from talking to transgender adults who had to go through puberty as the gender they were assigned at birth, and how much they'd have given to be able to stop that, and thus why they opted to thwart male puberty in Jazz. 

 

That documentary really brings home the fact that, while Jazz is still young, because her gender identity presented itself at such a young age and so clearly, many years have passed since they were all first confronted with this issue.  At the time of the documentary, the parents had already spent eight years consulting with various experts, making sure they were following all recommended guidelines for Jazz. 

 

It also shows one major reason they may have all decided telling Jazz's story to the world at large was worth the risks -- when Jeanette went looking for information on transgender kids, she had a hard time finding any.  What a different world Jazz and her family have helped make it for today's transgender kids and their families.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Bastet

[Human]

If Jazz wants to live as a female while she is a minor, she can. Her parents don't need to make irreversible changes to her body in order for this to happen. When Jazz is a grown-up she can do whatever she wants with her body. I don't think it's fair to compare this to cancer treatment. Jazz won't die without having hormone treatment. Children with cancer will die without treatment. Jazz's parents made the call that they felt was best when she was 2. I think that Jazz should make the decision for herself when she is an adult.

Children are able to make decisions for themselves, and they do so every day.  Further, this particular medical decision is made with the assistance of experts who are able to successfully determine if this is the right treatment for Jazz and if Jazz is able to understand the benefits and consequences of treatment. Children aren't stupid.  

 

If you think alleviating the symptoms of gender dysphoria is never a matter of life and death, just listen to how distressed Jazz sounds when she discusses the possibility of experiencing male puberty.  Read the last note of Leelah Alcorn.  Read about the alarmingly high rate of suicide among transgender youth.  

 

There are a dozen choices we make every day that create irreversible changes for our children.  The diets we feed children is but one example.  Playing certain sports can create skeletal changes that affect them all through life.  Recreational activities like tv, video games and other screen time creates changes in the brain.  Heck just certain events we might subject our children to can create significant and irreversible changes.  This isn't even getting to the irreversible medical decisions.  Vaccinations would be one single example.  

 

Everything we do with our children changes them in some way so using 'irreversible changes' is simply an excuse to withhold necessary medical treatment.  Why is the line being drawn at treating gender dysphoria?  Does this arbitrary line extend to treating other things like depression, bipolar disorder, or ADHD since treatment options can create changes to the child?  

 

I just really encourage us all to challenge ourselves and scrutinize some of the reasons we might draw lines in the sands.  Ask what those reasons really are and why those reasons are so important.  

[rck]

Fun fact: there is a direct correlation between height and onset of menstruation. The vast majority of women will remain the height they were when they first began menstruating. Not much growth happens after that milestone, because of the effects of hormones on the growth plates. It was interesting for me to see Jazz get to (in effect) choose her height by opting to delay estrogen. I'm 5'1" and I would have loved to have the choice :P

And then there are people like me; I was 14 and already very tall when I started my period, but I still grew 4 more inches over the next 6-8 years. Both my parents grew in college too, so it's not a surprise I was the same way.

 

My parents were given the option to stop my growth early. I kind of wish they had done it, but I guess I understand why they didn't want to mess with my hormones if it wasn't necessary.

 

I guess the nice thing for Jazz is that, even though I know she wants to be a little taller, being 5'1'' is still quite normal for a woman. It's tough for the trans women who go through male puberty and get really tall, because that's one thing you really can't ever undo. I understand why people don't like the idea of minors getting medical treatment for dysphoria, but this is one thing where inaction has serious, irreversible results.

 

Regarding transphobia, I really had a hard time at first when I heard the idea that not being attracted to a trans person is transphobic, but I misunderstood the point people were trying to make there. As I understand it now, it is transphobic if someone is not attracted to someone else because they are transgender. It's not transphobic to not be attracted to a particular trans person, or to not want to have a sexual relationship with someone who does not have the kind of genitals you prefer, but it is transphobic if you disregard someone as a potential partner just because they are transgender.

Edited July 31, 2015 by rck

[CousinAmy]

 

Regarding transphobia, I really had a hard time at first when I heard the idea that not being attracted to a trans person is transphobic, but I misunderstood the point people were trying to make there. As I understand it now, it is transphobic if someone is not attracted to someone else because they are transgender. It's not transphobic to not be attracted to a particular trans person, or to not want to have a sexual relationship with someone who does not have the kind of genitals you prefer, but it is transphobic if you disregard someone as a potential partner just because they are transgender.

I think transphobic means people who have a fear ("phobic") or hatred of a person because they are transgender. I don't think dismissing someone as a potential partner is transphobic in any way, as long as no hate or cruelty is expressed, why should we judge someone's personal choices? 

 

I was thinking about the discussion of height that I commented on earlier today. While trying to figure out whether Jazz's height would be determined by DNA or hormones, I found that I don't really understand the topic at all. If Jazz (or Caitlyn Jenner) has to take hormones for the rest of their lives, and androgen-blockers to prevent male characteristics, doesn't that mean that they really are boys/men? If they were "women," they would not need to take estrogen for the rest of their lives and testostorone blockers - I'm Caitlyn Jenner's age, and I certainly don't need to take hormones for the rest of my life to continue to be a woman. I could understand if, for example, a two-year-old "girl" child decides that he really is a boy, if he had the DNA and body composition of a boy. But for someone to be on hormone therapy for life to prevent the way their body is programmed to be seems to me that it's an artificial construct, and not "natural" at all. 

[Human]

I think transphobic means people who have a fear ("phobic") or hatred of a person because they are transgender. I don't think dismissing someone as a potential partner is transphobic in any way, as long as no hate or cruelty is expressed, why should we judge someone's personal choices? 

 

There are many ways that bigotry can be expressed.  Regarding this specific scenario, consider these two statements.

 

1. I would never date a black person.

2. I find I am not attracted to dark skin.

 

One statement is clearly using racist language while the other is simply expressing one's personal attractions.  The language and context in which a person is being dismissed determines whether it's defined as a transphobic/bigoted statement or just a simple expression of taste.  

 

 

I was thinking about the discussion of height that I commented on earlier today. While trying to figure out whether Jazz's height would be determined by DNA or hormones, I found that I don't really understand the topic at all. If Jazz (or Caitlyn Jenner) has to take hormones for the rest of their lives, and androgen-blockers to prevent male characteristics, doesn't that mean that they really are boys/men? If they were "women," they would not need to take estrogen for the rest of their lives and testostorone blockers - I'm Caitlyn Jenner's age, and I certainly don't need to take hormones for the rest of my life to continue to be a woman. I could understand if, for example, a two-year-old "girl" child decides that he really is a boy, if he had the DNA and body composition of a boy. But for someone to be on hormone therapy for life to prevent the way their body is programmed to be seems to me that it's an artificial construct, and not "natural" at all.

Many people take medications for their entire lives in order to treat medical conditions and live well.  Does that mean their existence is somehow unnatural?  

 

You can read more about gender vs sex.  There are a gazillion books and scholarly articles on the topic.  Some great blogs out there break it down into more accessible writing and I think most come up in the first few pages of a google search.  

 

What we know about the body isn't all there is to know about the body.  We know more than we knew in Aristotle's day, but our knowledge is still woefully incomplete. Chromosomes and DNA still play an important part in our knowledge, but the last decade has seen research focus a whole lot on the brain.  When it comes to gender, the findings have been pretty amazing.  Brain scans have proven that there are differences found in the brains of transgender people.  There have been several more studies released this year that are currently undergoing peer review so will hopefully be available for the public to view shortly.

 

My point in bringing this up is to point out that the body still remains mysterious to us. Since the dawn of time, we've attempted to treat the body when it's in distress.  Our methods of treatment may be different than Aristotle's, but the basic idea is the same.  Synthetic medicines might be used today rather than leeches and molds of yesterday, but using the best of what we have to treat a body in distress is in no way unnatural.  I'm sure in another 100 years scientists will look back at our silly brain scan studies and laugh at our inept treatment of gender dysphoria, but for now, we work with what we have.