A Place For Questions & Educational Links

[okerry]

4 hours ago, SongbirdHollow said:

Regarding bottom surgery for MTF, why is is so important to make a vagina?  If you have to resort to colon vaginoplasty, why not leave the colon where it is and have anal sex?

Exactly. Of course AFAIK the anus and rectum are undisturbed in this type of surgery. A piece of colon is taking from somewhere else - not sure if they use the large or the small - and used in the vaginoplasty.

[Scarlett45]

@SongbirdHollow I don't think you're question is offnesive. I too suggested if Jazz would be open to the construction of a vulva/clitroris and maybe a full vaginaloplasty down the line when techniques are better, but in regards to your question it might come down to 1. Not everyone wants to engage in anal sex and 2. Having a full vagialoplasty for their own personal fulfillment. 

[Muffyn]

@okerry A small section of the large intestine is used in a colon vaginoplasty.  The rectum and anus are not affected as you said.

The thing is not all people enjoy anal sex, whether giving or receiving.  I have a transgender friend who did choose to have bottom surgery without having a vagina created.  The doctors pushed back quite a bit.  Partly I believe this is because they focus on what they view as fitting into certain aesthetics and the idea of normal  anatomy.  My friend made the choice based on her personal desire.  She had plenty of material to work with. 

The other reason for looking toward this form of reconstruction is working toward ending the feeling of body dysmorphia; that is, trying to make the body look and feel the way the person needs to feel properly associated to their physical form. 

With this show focusing so much on surgery this year, they are glossing over the fact that many transgender  people do not have surgery or may not have all of the things Jazz wants.  Our bodies and our relationships to them are very personal.    As there is no one size fits all experience for cisgender people, neither is there one for transgender people. 

Edited July 23, 2017 by Muffyn
typos

[Muffyn]

OK, I'm on a bit of a roll today.  Questions came up regarding whether transgender persons who had gender confirmation surgery where more likely to be suicidal.  This idea was based on a misinterpretation of a study by a Swedish researcher.  While rates of suicide attempts are higher among transgender persons overall, to clarify from this interview with the researcher:

Quote

No, the study does not show that medical transition results in suicide or suicidal ideation. The study explicitly states that such is not the case and those using this study to make that claim are using fallacious logic.

This is an article that needs to be read carefully since it is very detailed and includes references to many of the misinterpretations of this research. Since they are interviewing the actual author of the research, I trust the accuracy of this source. 

Here is a different study on suicide rates among transgender and gender non-conforming persons.   Even if you're not a statistics geek, the first age gives a good synopsis of the findings.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Muffyn

[TwirlyGirly]

There are those who object to using a certain "new" word to describe those of us who identify with the same gender with which we were assigned at birth, i.e. "cisgender." Some believe it to be pejorative.

I did a bit of sleuthing on the origins/definitions of the words "transgender" and "cisgender" - and both are firmly rooted in basic chemistry.

Gender: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender)

Trans: characterized by having certain groups of atoms on opposite sides of the longitudinal axis of a double bond or of the plane of a ring in a molecule (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trans)

Cis: characterized by having certain atoms or groups of atoms on the same side of the longitudinal axis of a double bond or of the plane of a ring in a molecule (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cis)

Transgender:  of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth; especially
:  of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth (First known use: 1974) (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transgender)

Cisgender:   of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth (First known use: 1994) (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cisgender)

As you can see, the terms "transgender" and "cisgender" are both firmly rooted in established terms used in chemistry. Neither are "made up" words, pejorative, or what some might believe, "politically correct nonsense".

[SongbirdHollow]

On July 22, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Scarlett45 said:

@SongbirdHollow I don't think you're question is offnesive. I too suggested if Jazz would be open to the construction of a vulva/clitroris and maybe a full vaginaloplasty down the line when techniques are better, but in regards to your question it might come down to 1. Not everyone wants to engage in anal sex and 2. Having a full vagialoplasty for their own personal fulfillment. 

Yes, those are the only reasons I can surmise. But in Jazz's case particularly, how does she even know what she'll want? She's never had an orgasm. How does she know that vaginal sex is something essential for her? How does she know that she doesn't want anal sex? I guess what got me thinking about it was that one of the doctors she consulted with emphasized how having a functional vagina was so, so important. As if having no vagina was not even an option. (This may simply be a reality-show-not-reflecting-reality thing.)

[Madding crowd]

12 hours ago, TwirlyGirly1 said:

There are those who object to using a certain "new" word to describe those of us who identify with the same gender with which we were assigned at birth, i.e. "cisgender." Some believe it to be pejorative.

I did a bit of sleuthing on the origins/definitions of the words "transgender" and "cisgender" - and both are firmly rooted in basic chemistry.

Gender: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender)

Trans: characterized by having certain groups of atoms on opposite sides of the longitudinal axis of a double bond or of the plane of a ring in a molecule (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trans)

Cis: characterized by having certain atoms or groups of atoms on the same side of the longitudinal axis of a double bond or of the plane of a ring in a molecule (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cis)

Transgender:  of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth; especially
:  of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth (First known use: 1974) (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transgender)

Cisgender:   of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth (First known use: 1994) (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cisgender)

As you can see, the terms "transgender" and "cisgender" are both firmly rooted in established terms used in chemistry. Neither are "made up" words, pejorative, or what some might believe, "politically correct nonsense".

I personally do not wish to be called a cis woman and I feel my wishes need to be honored along side the wishes of everyone in every group. I don't speak for anyone else and I am  clear on the definition, but I do not want to be referred to as anything other than a woman. If we are compliant with the wishes of the transgender community and we certainly should be, we should respect the wishes of all individuals. This really doesn't apply to this show, but I don't need to be educated on what my preferred term of address should be. In other words, I wouldn't dream of telling you how you should be referred to or addressed and I deserve the same courtesy. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Madding crowd
clarity

[TwirlyGirly]

1 hour ago, Madding crowd said:

I personally do not wish to be called a cis woman and I feel my wishes need to be honored along side the wishes of everyone in every group. I don't speak for anyone else and I am  clear on the definition, but I do not want to be referred to as anything other than a woman. If we are compliant with the wishes of the transgender community and we certainly should be, we should respect the wishes of all individuals. This really doesn't apply to this show, but I don't need to be educated on what my preferred term of address should be. In other words, I wouldn't dream of telling you how you should be referred to or addressed and I deserve the same courtesy. 

I understand what you are saying.

Look at it this way, though. Neither "transgender" nor "cisgender" are forms of address.

For example, let's say we divide everybody in the world into one of two groups; "able-bodied" or "persons with disabilities."

Nobody "addresses" anybody as "Person with disability! Nice to meet you!" right? Of course not. (BTW, I am a person with a disability, so I can assure you this never happens). Now, let's say I was filling out a form or participating in a survey in which whether I was able-bodied or disabled was important to the subject matter being questioned/studied. Then I would identify myself as "disabled." Because I NOT able-bodied. And those are the only two choices.

Now, I am also a woman, and I am cisgender! But stating I am a "woman" - rather than choosing between "able-bodied" or "person with a disability" in the above example, wouldn't fulfill the criteria needed for the form/survey I was completing, would it?

Both "transgender" and "cisgender" are labels (based upon scientific terminology) - and sometimes labels are necessary in certain spaces. No more and no less.

Where might it be important to identify as a cisgender woman? As more and more transgender women transition and have gender reassignment surgery, they will be seeking GYN services. A gynecologist will not necessarily be able to tell, just by looking "down there," a biological woman from a trans woman. Therefore, this is probably something we'll all be seeing included on medical forms at our OB/GYN's in the future, because it will impact the quality of care BOTH groups will receive. For example, if you're a cisgender woman, your doctor will not be concerned with a risk for prostate cancer. And, trans women won't need to be concerned with cervical cancer.

Edited July 25, 2017 by TwirlyGirly1

[JocelynCavanaugh]

All boobs are grown due to hormones, Jazz's and mine and everyone else's. 

[Scarlett45]

@Otter I am sorry for the loss of your friend, and for the suffering they have faced during their fight with cancer. However I don't think it's fair to judge someone else's feelings about their own body because of something tragic and undesired that happened to another's body. 

I highly doubt any  FTM person would consider having top-surgery a similar experience to being a breast cancer survivor. (Or vice versa) The procedures may be the same but the reasons for the surgery as well as the emotional experiences of the patients are VASTLY different. The pain and suffering a cancer patient goes through isn't cancelled out or made light of due to someone having their quality of life improved by a similair procedure.

Compare it to someone feeling freed and relieved after having a hysterectomy because they were in tremendous amounts of pain due to fibroids or whatever- after the hysto their lives are better, the pain is gone, they can participate in life more fully and someone who had to have an emergency hysterectomy to save their life. Both people no longer have a uterus, one's quality of life is improved, another's life is saved but of course would've prefered to keep their uterus.

As @TwirlyGirly1 stated above, being "cis" in a discussion of gender is the same as being "able bodied" in a discussion of disability- it's not a pejorative, the same way "heterosexual" and "able bodied" are not pejoratives . I am a cis-gender abled bodied heterosexual woman......but I'm addressed as @Scarlett45 (great explanation by the way). 

 

If Jazz were to get bottom surgery she would still have a prostate. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Scarlett45

[Madding crowd]

If you enjoy being a cis woman rather than a woman that is certainly your right. You can't decide how I am called however. The transgender community does not have the right to call me something against my will, and I don't have the right to  decide what a transgender person is to be called. If some law has been passed saying I cannot call myself a woman, please let me know where or when. The transgender community does not decide the laws at this time. As far as my gynecologist not knowing if I am transgender or not-that is not something which will come up for me; I have had children.  I also have a uterus and ovaries. Obviously some women have hysterectomies, but their medical records would reflect that. I would think that a transgender woman would select a gyno would is both familiar with their anatomy and understanding on how to handle their medical issues. I simply cannot see any legal or medical reason why I have to change my identification from woman.  As far as the able bodied/person of disability; I have never had to fill out a form stating I am able bodied, nor have i been asked that question. Most doctors/medical forms ask questions about health history but they do not require you to declare you are able bodied. For the same reason, I don't need or want to declare myself anything but a woman. I also consider transgender women to be women. 

And I don't need education-I have a master's degree in educational curriculum and am a writer/reporter. I do know the latin words and their meaning. As far as the scientific usage, if you are a scientist and it is imperative to your work to classify people, than by all means go ahead. TV forums are not scientific. You can't expect me to support your rights while taking away mine. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Madding crowd

[Muffyn]

If Jazz has bottom surgery, her prostate would not be removed.  One of the doctors mentioned on the show that she would have a prostate gland.  The prostate gland, for those that have them, has effects to urinary continence.  This is discussed on Dr. Reed's site.  Note:  This particular page is NSFW due to a close up photo of a vulva. 

The colostomy questions was answered previously.  For the colon vaginoplasty, a small section of colon (large intestine) is removed.  We typically have 4.5-5 feet of colon.  They would take approximately four inches, then sew the remainder together.  To need a colostomy, a very large portion on the large intestine would need to be lost, typically due to cancer or extreme cases of IBS or immune disorders that prevent normal functioning.  Colostomies are also performed when the rectum no longer functions properly.  Colon vaginoplasty does not involve any changes to the rectum or anus.  In an earlier post in this forum I linked to a page showing exactly how the procedures are done. 

[SongbirdHollow]

15 hours ago, TwirlyGirly1 said:

I understand what you are saying.

Look at it this way, though. Neither "transgender" nor "cisgender" are forms of address.

For example, let's say we divide everybody in the world into one of two groups; "able-bodied" or "persons with disabilities."

Nobody "addresses" anybody as "Person with disability! Nice to meet you!" right? Of course not. (BTW, I am a person with a disability, so I can assure you this never happens). Now, let's say I was filling out a form or participating in a survey in which whether I was able-bodied or disabled was important to the subject matter being questioned/studied. Then I would identify myself as "disabled." Because I NOT able-bodied. And those are the only two choices.

Now, I am also a woman, and I am cisgender! But stating I am a "woman" - rather than choosing between "able-bodied" or "person with a disability" in the above example, wouldn't fulfill the criteria needed for the form/survey I was completing, would it?

Both "transgender" and "cisgender" are labels (based upon scientific terminology) - and sometimes labels are necessary in certain spaces. No more and no less.

Where might it be important to identify as a cisgender woman? As more and more transgender women transition and have gender reassignment surgery, they will be seeking GYN services. A gynecologist will not necessarily be able to tell, just by looking "down there," a biological woman from a trans woman. Therefore, this is probably something we'll all be seeing included on medical forms at our OB/GYN's in the future, because it will impact the quality of care BOTH groups will receive. For example, if you're a cisgender woman, your doctor will not be concerned with a risk for prostate cancer. And, trans women won't need to be concerned with cervical cancer.

This is absolutely true. I work in a hospital lab that performs STD testing and it's already an issue in our computer system. 

[Caracoa1]

My 18 yr old nephew recently had to sign up for selective service which got me thinking.....with Jazz being biologically male will she have to sign up when she turns 18?

[Muffyn]

@Caracoa1  you raised a interesting question.  I checked with a friend who is an attorney and a transgender woman.  It would depend on what is on her ID.  In the episode where Jazz gets her license, they mentioned it would say male and have her birth name.  The rules regarding legal gender change vary by state.  From the transequality.org website, "In order to update name and/or gender on a Florida ID, the applicant must submit (1) the court order for a name change and/or (2) a signed original statement on office letterhead from the attending physician stating that the applicant is undergoing appropriate clinical treatment for gender transition."  Jazz is undergoing treatment for gender transition since she is on hormone blockers.  She would have to follow through on these steps to be able to change her gender identification under the laws of the state of Florida.  Until then, they have her listed as male so she would need to sign up for selective service when she turns 18. 

[possibilities]

Has the draft been reinstated?

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

Has the draft been reinstated?

No, but all American males have to register when they're 18.  I do recall seeing an episode or interview someplace where Jazz' passport is shown and she is listed as female on it.  That makes me think the proper paperwork has already been done to legally designate her as a female, which would exclude her from the selective service.

[MegD]

2 hours ago, doodlebug said:

No, but all American males have to register when they're 18.  I do recall seeing an episode or interview someplace where Jazz' passport is shown and she is listed as female on it.  That makes me think the proper paperwork has already been done to legally designate her as a female, which would exclude her from the selective service.

Her passport could have been issued as female, provided that she had a doctor submit paperwork regarding her gender reassignment. It does not have to match her driver's license so long as the photographs match. Under current law, while males born female are not required to register, females born male are still required to register for the Selective Service however. Looks like she's going to have to register, even if she would end up being exempted in the event of a draft under current US policy. It's akin to how physically disabled men are still required to complete the paperwork, although they would not be draft eligible.

[Muffyn]

7 hours ago, Impatient said:

Oh Granny 58, let me hasten to correct one thing.  It is not necessarily true that self-resolving gender dysphoric children revert to homosexuality.  I don't think that has been confirmed or quantified.  But it IS true that 80% of children claiming to be "trapped in the wrong body" stop feeling that way without treatment.  They are self-resolving of that conflict.

Yes, the gay community is furious about this whole transgender acceptance movement, and especially the idea that these are children with  congenital abnormalities that must be medically and surgically corrected.  

Let's address two issues.  1) it is highly common that at some point during childhood, children express a sense that they are the gender opposite if what they are believed to be.  That is not the same as gender dysphoria.  A male child choosing for a short time to wear dresses or pay with dolls is not uncommon, nor is a female child wanting to be treated as they believe boys are treated.  The 80% figure you are stating relates to the short term behaviors and are often the result of children trying to different roles.  I have seen no studies showing such extreme numbers for youth that identify as gender or body dysmorphic.   

2) There are people and groups within the queer community that do not support transgender persons and believe these persons' experiences are valid.  These groups do not speak for their entire gay community.  It is very dangerous to make statements about  an entire community. 

There is a critical flaw in the reasoning that transgender women are gay men that are ashamed of their sexuality and therefore choose to be trans.  Firstly, acceptance of gay men is much higher in our society than acceptance of transgender women.  Secondly, sexuality and gender are different issues.  Transgender women are not all sexually attracted to men.  There are gay, straight and bisexual transgender women just as there are gay, straight and bisexual cisgender women.  (I am using the most commonly listed terms for sexuality; however, all sexualities are apparent among both cisgender and transgender persons).     

7 hours ago, Impatient said:

In terms of people asking what the, for lack of a better word, recidivism rate is (i.e., people who undergo sexual reassignment surgery and then regret it), as far as I have been able to discern, it is about 20%.  But it is difficult to say.  The anecdotal reports say 20%.  Peer-reviewed scientific journals are far more negative and report the percentage of such patients as being closer to 50%.  Given that the number of people who report gender confusion in early childhood and who self-resolve that confusion (i.e., stop feeling they are trapped in the wrong body) is 80%, I actually think the science may be more accurate than the anecdotal evidence.  I NORMALLY  think peer-reviewed scientific journals are more accurate than anecdotal evidence, but the push back from the trans community is so strong that this becomes a difficult position to take.  So I am waffling a bit.

Lastly,  someone here said, 'Would someone please define transgender?  No one has done so, despite my asking repeatedly'  Something like that, words to that effect.

Well yes, but that brings us full circle.  The comments I have been making here since this season started are that this show provides an opportunity to address those questions:  what is the underlying biology in transgender individuals that accounts for gender dysphoria?  . . .
 

The suicide rate does not remain as high for persons who undergo treatment for gender dysmorphia.  I addressed the study that was misquoted in national media as "proving" this in the post above: 

The researcher has confirmed that the study did not show equal or increased suicidal ideation or attempts among people who underwent treatment.  This is a peer-reviewed study.

As for studies on the underlying biology of transgender people, there are not a lot available because the research field is relatively new (not because trans people didn't  exist; there were just few studies).   Providing links only to sites that can be accessed for free and without registration, here are a few interesting reads. 

Biological Basis of the Transgender Brain

Transgender differences caught on brain scan

Transgender Evidence Found on Brain Scans - this is only a synopsis

As to a definition of transgender, when applied to people, it refers to people whose gender assigned at birth does not match the gender they feel they are.  And yes, it is difficult how to understand how someone feels they are one gender or another.  I know that I don't feel like a man.  Fortunately for me, I have always been considered female.  Beyond that I have to take other people at their word when they tell me how they feel.  Living as a transgender person and undergoing treatments is such a difficult process, I know no one who has made this decision lightly.  While on I Am Jazz we see her only dealing with doctors who fully support her diagnosis and treatment, most people do not have that experience.  The standard is to assume the person is not transgender and to make them work very hard to prove they are.  

[Impatient]

Nicely done Muffyn, but i disagree, obviously on a number of the points you have made here.  Will respond tomorro or the next day.  Am a little swamped.  

i must say there is a bit of the pro-transbias in a number of your citations.  I'll tell you why I think so.  Later.

[PrincessPurrsALot]

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This is a thread for questions, answers and educational links.  Feel free to post relevant links and other information.  As always, let's keep it on topic.

[Zuleikha]

I'm not sure if this is an okay thing to post here or not, but the Planet Fitness lawsuit was brought up in one of the Jazz episode threads with this summary:

 And the Planet Fitness story where the ladies were told they were free to quit the gym but the guy they reported was free to walk around the lady's dressing room.  

 

This is a misleading summary of the Planet Fitness lawsuit, and I don't want anyone to be corrected. There was no "the guy" involved. What happened was Yvette Cormier, a cisgender woman, was upset at seeing a transgender woman in the dressing room. Cormier proceeded to complain about the transgender woman to other women despite the fact that Planet Fitness has a policy of trans inclusivity. Because Cormier was violating the terms of membership, Planet Fitness yanked her membership. 

A transgender woman has come forward to say she believes that she is the transgender woman Cormier saw. Sklodowska is not a guy. She is a transgender woman. 

[Desert Rat]

7 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I'm not sure if this is an okay thing to post here or not, but the Planet Fitness lawsuit was brought up in one of the Jazz episode threads with this summary:

 

 

This is a misleading summary of the Planet Fitness lawsuit, and I don't want anyone to be corrected. There was no "the guy" involved. What happened was Yvette Cormier, a cisgender woman, was upset at seeing a transgender woman in the dressing room. Cormier proceeded to complain about the transgender woman to other women despite the fact that Planet Fitness has a policy of trans inclusivity. Because Cormier was violating the terms of membership, Planet Fitness yanked her membership. 

A transgender woman has come forward to say she believes that she is the transgender woman Cormier saw. Sklodowska is not a guy. She is a transgender woman. 

Honest question.  How was Cormier to know the difference?  If it really was a guy, she had a valid complaint.  It's not always obvious who are the real transgender people and who are posers.  How do we know the transgender woman is not really just a guy?  Based on his say so?

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, Desert Rat said:

Honest question.  How was Cormier to know the difference?  If it really was a guy, she had a valid complaint.  It's not always obvious who are the real transgender people and who are posers.  How do we know the transgender woman is not really just a guy?  Based on his say so?

How do we decide anyone is any gender? At least three quarters of the people at the gym I go to are wearing clothing that would be suitable for either sex; workout clothes are like that. The woman apparently went to management and was told that the person she was concerned about was transgender.  There's nothing wrong with asking the question, it was her refusal to accept the answer that a transgender woman was perfectly within her rights to use the locker room. Her persistent discussion of it with others got her membership cancelled.  Anyone who is so clearly upset at the prospect of a transgender person entering a locker room to hang up a coat should probably find another gym, which is essentially what Planet Fitness was telling her when they asked her to leave.  I don't think anyone is saying she wasn't within her rights to ask if this person belonged in the locker room, but she clearly didn't accept the answer and wanted the rules changed to suit her preferences.

Edited August 8, 2017 by doodlebug

[ClareWalks]

1 minute ago, doodlebug said:

The woman apparently went to management and was told that the person she was concerned about was transgender.  There's nothing wrong with asking the question, it was her refusal to accept the answer that a transgender woman was perfectly within her rights to use the locker room.

This exactly. I don't fault anyone for bringing the question to management, or even for being uncomfortable with the presence of transgender women in the locker room. It's the persistent "get that man out of my locker room" even when the situation was explained clearly, that was discriminatory. Someone's discomfort around transgender people does not supercede trans rights. It's like if someone saw an interracial couple at the gym and complained to management. It is the responsibility of a complainer, if nothing illegal is happening, to suck it up and deal, or find another gym that is more...old-fashioned, for lack of a better term.

[MegD]

3 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Anyone who is so clearly upset at the prospect of a transgender person entering a locker room to hang up a coat should probably find another gym, which is essentially what Planet Fitness was telling her when they asked her to leave. 

Not to say that this woman, if it was her, was not allowed in the locker room, but in my experience, there are always at least 3 sides to every story, each parties' and the truth. The "I just hung up my coat and purse" statement seems off to me as I rarely see people with purses at my Planet Fitness, unless they have a whole bag and a lock to secure their belongings. Otherwise things walk off. Perhaps she used the restroom, perhaps she changed her shoes, but her statement just seems odd. The woman kicked out though really should have shut her mouth unless there was something further going on.

[doodlebug]

43 minutes ago, MegD said:

Not to say that this woman, if it was her, was not allowed in the locker room, but in my experience, there are always at least 3 sides to every story, each parties' and the truth. The "I just hung up my coat and purse" statement seems off to me as I rarely see people with purses at my Planet Fitness, unless they have a whole bag and a lock to secure their belongings. Otherwise things walk off. Perhaps she used the restroom, perhaps she changed her shoes, but her statement just seems odd. The woman kicked out though really should have shut her mouth unless there was something further going on.

Even if she did change her shoes or her clothes or use the restroom, she is allowed to do those things, no one ever complained that she had behaved inappropriately there. I presume Planet Fitness is like my gym, the only places where personal belongings can be secured is in the locker rooms which are designated by gender. If the guest didn't want to risk losing her coat and/or purse, she needed to enter the locker room.  There may not have been anyplace else to hang them up, lock or not.

Edited August 8, 2017 by doodlebug

[ClareWalks]

40 minutes ago, MegD said:

The "I just hung up my coat and purse" statement seems off to me as I rarely see people with purses at my Planet Fitness, unless they have a whole bag and a lock to secure their belongings.

It is possible that she hung up the coat and purse in a locker, on a hook. That's how I would describe what I do at my gym (since I never need to actually change clothes at the gym).

[Zuleikha]

It doesn't really matter whether Sklodowska did more than hang up her coat and purse--although I have no reason to doubt her version of events. As long as she wasn't doing anything that violates Planet Fitness's rules for locker room behavior, she was within her rights to do it. Cormier testified in a lawsuit, so I feel safe assuming that if Sklodowska did anything that Cormier could have described as inappropriate Cormier would have described the behavior as such.

It is true that it is not always readily apparent whether a masculine looking person is a transgender woman or a cisgender woman with a masculine appearance. That's simply the reality of life. You can't always look at a person and know either their gender identity or their biological sex. If that bothers you, all you can do about it is adjust your own behavior choices for this reality. Because reality isn't going to change just for you.

Personally, I find a single-sex changing areas an inadequate proxy for privacy and safety anyway. Plenty of cisgender women can behave inappropriately. Think about that Playboy model who Snapchatted the picture of a naked woman in a changing room because the model wanted to mock the woman's weight. I'd MUCH rather share space with a transgender woman--or heck, a well-behaved cisgender man--than a cisgender woman who feels its appropriate to violate privacy! Safety comes through clearly communicated policies about appropriate behavior, with clearly communicated practical actions to take to address inappropriate behavior. 

[MegD]

@ClareWalks, @doodlebug, and @Zuleikha, I agree with you that it doesn't matter as she's allowed to be there. I think it bothers me more that she'd feel like she'd have to minimize what she was doing where she was doing exactly what she was allowed to do. It reads, to someone biased against her, as if she was doing something she wasn't supposed to or something she should be ashamed of. I think that's what bothers me about it. To me, it seems as if she's ashamed and that bothers me. Perhaps I'm just overthinking it.

[TwirlyGirly]

Two links which others may find educational:

 

"Are Parents Rushing to Turn Their Boys Into Girls?" - an article addressing methodological issues with studies/articles which claim the majority of transgender children eventually resolve and accept the gender assigned to them at birth:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2016/01/14/what_alarmist_articles_about_transgender_children_get_wrong.html

 

"Mental Health and Self-Worth in Socially-Transitioned Transgender Youth" - full-text of recent (Nov. 2016) study which compared depression, anxiety, and self-worth among socially transitioned transgender children vs two control groups (age - and gender-matched controls and siblings of transgender children):

http://sci-hub.bz/10.1016/j.jaac.2016.10.016

[Gigi43]

Hi everyone! I hope this is the right thread for my post, I don't see a general discussion one.

 

I swore off TLC shows involving kids a while ago but my curiosity about Jazz and trangender people in general got me to break it. My OnDemand only has season 3 starting at episode 3. I've seen episodes 3-5 and unfortunately, I'm not liking what I'm seeing. Its coming off as another staged reality show with and given the topic I was hoping for more. Is there a place where the first season is available to watch for free (I have Hulu)? Usually imo first seasons of reality shows are the closest to "reality." Jazz is coming off as she's trying hard to be a "Personality!" and I can't yet gauge if that's how she is (which doesn't really fit with the comments about social anxiety) or if it's the result of being on season 3 of a reality show with her mom pushing her towards it (I'm not liking her mom.)

 

Also, does anyone know how long Jazz and Noelle have -supposedly- been friends? I know it could have all been staged just to inform the audience but the episode where Noelle was getting hair removal and Jazz was surprised Noelle was not just misgendered but didn't bother to correct the woman that makes me think they haven't been friends for that long. Is it just a friendship for the show? Neither Jazz or her mom bothered much to acknowledge Noelle's concerns about her voice in the dating episode 5 on the ride to that very staged event. I'm really liking Noelle and this is bothering me. She clearly doesn't have it as easy as Jazz and it bothers me they could be using her to boot.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Gigi43

[Scarlett45]

@Gigi43 I believe Jazz and Noelle were introduced through the show and Jazz's Gender Bender Group. After Jazz started her new school her peer group changed.

While I don't think all of their interactions are staged, they have a bit of natural chemistry, I don't think they would've met if not for the show. I believe they brought Noelle on as a contrast of a young trans girl who started transition after male puberty. 

[mangosplums]

On 7/30/2015 at 8:35 PM, rck said:

 

Regarding transphobia, I really had a hard time at first when I heard the idea that not being attracted to a trans person is transphobic, but I misunderstood the point people were trying to make there. As I understand it now, it is transphobic if someone is not attracted to someone else because they are transgender. It's not transphobic to not be attracted to a particular trans person, or to not want to have a sexual relationship with someone who does not have the kind of genitals you prefer, but it is transphobic if you disregard someone as a potential partner just because they are transgender.

That is not transphobic. Nobody has a right to tell anyone who they should want to sleep with.

[mangosplums]

On 8/8/2015 at 4:32 PM, possibilities said:

I think if you are a person who identifies with the gender other people told you you were at birth, but you do not conform to the stereotypical extremes for that gender, you will have lots of questions about what those assignments mean and what they should mean, and that's valid. Speaking as a cisgender female, also a lesbian, and also someone who finds both extremes of the gender binary stereotype morbidly aversive, I understand the impulse to question the nature and validity of prevailing gender norms, and to be hostile to declarations that one's gender is defined by things like favorite color, style of dress, or whether you cook, sew, fix cars, or drive a truck.

 

.....

 

The more I hear transgender people talk about their lives, the more obvious it is to me that they are the experts on who they are and what they need, and that the rest of us should stay out of it and stop making such a big deal about it being our business. It's actually the same thing as has always been true for me as a lesbian, i.e. that other people have been nursing theories about what we are and why, and whether and how much and in what ways we should be accepted or tolerated or allowed to participate in the world. Even the debate over whether we choose or are born this way to me is irrelevant and insulting, because it implies that we need to explain or justify our existence and that there's something wrong that needs explaining. We are who we are. We're not hurting anyone by being that way.

There's nothing to worry about.

 

I also think that's why "being out" is such a great service, as well as often being a necessity for psychological and physical self-preservation. Living in secret is terrifying and stressful. It's inherently damaging. So when I hear people worrying about Jazz being public, I get it because fame has its problems. But being in the closet is also detrimental, and that can't be ignored either.

Because there ARE differences between males and females. We have different organs and are affected by different hormones. Our bodies do different things. Women can get pregnant, can give birth to children and then spend the first year of the child's life breastfeeding, men don't do this. That's a HUGE difference between the sexes right there. On average men are larger than women and can over-power women in a physical confrontation. Most violence and rape is committed by men. These are differences between the sexes that are real. Refusing to acknowledge these differences does not help anyone and ESPECIALLY does not help women.

I think as feminists we seek to minimize the differences between the sexes because we are afraid if we acknowledge them, then men will twist them to justify misogyny and oppression, as they have been doing for centuries. So in an attempt to combat misogyny and oppression we try to pretend that men and women are exactly the same. I think this is misguided and actually in the end hurts women. 

 

When we say anyone can be whichever gender they want regardless of anatomy and hormones, a male can call themselves a woman, and a female call themselves a man, regardless if they've even gone through any sort of medical transition, we are redefining what sex actually means. If we redefine the words girl/woman and boy/man, which have always been descriptive words for the sexes (female/male), to mean, well, in the end nothing really, then statistics on how females are discriminated against in the workplace or elsewhere will be rendered meaningless if males can be recorded as if they are women. The crime statistics likewise will be rendered meaningless if crimes committed by males are recorded as if they have been committed by women. This is especially true regarding sexual crimes where females commit a tiny percentage of such crimes. What it means is there will be a increase in sexual crimes recorded as if they have been committed by lesbian women, when really heterosexual men have committed them. Females will also no longer be assured a female health care provider etc, if a male is legally classified as a woman. And locker rooms and bathrooms will no longer be safe spaces for females to be away from males.

How are we supposed to fight for our rights and advocate for ourselves as women, if the category of women (meaning biological female) is erased from society? How are we supposed to fight for protection and rights over our bodies, for healthcare coverage for woman-specific health issues, for protection in the workplace if we get pregnant or need to care for young kids, if the word woman no longer means person with vagina and womb?

These are the problems that we run into if we decide that the distinctions between the sexes are meaningless, and try to enact a genderless society, or a society where man and woman is based on personal feelings instead of biology.

I am all for someone like Jazz getting to be who she truly is. The problem is when anyone can call themselves trans even if they haven't gone through a transition and have no plans to, and when gender no longer seems to have anything to do with biology. I was under the impression when I first learned about trangenderism that it was an uncomfortability with one's sex, a desire to change one's sex, and then actions to do so. But now it seems to have little to do with that, and plenty of people are trans without having gone through any transition, while still being affected by the hormones of the sex they were born with. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by mangosplums

[spacefly]

Interesting conversation with my BIL the Dr this weekend. He had stated that he does not care what gender someone IDs with and that it is none of his business to question it. He said he wants a check box next to gender that says what your chromosomes were (and still are) at birth. He has a patient come into the ER with severe acute abdominal pain and the patient had checked the MALE box on intake and never indicated differently. My BIL spent some time arguing with other Drs that it was not an appendix and that it must be something else. Well after a bit of wondering and a scan it was an ovarian cyst that had ruptured. This really is the responsibility of the patient and is something that needs to be addressed and maybe a box on the form would be the best way to address this. Not really sure what the best way to deal with this is.

[doodlebug]

58 minutes ago, spacefly said:

Interesting conversation with my BIL the Dr this weekend. He had stated that he does not care what gender someone IDs with and that it is none of his business to question it. He said he wants a check box next to gender that says what your chromosomes were (and still are) at birth. He has a patient come into the ER with severe acute abdominal pain and the patient had checked the MALE box on intake and never indicated differently. My BIL spent some time arguing with other Drs that it was not an appendix and that it must be something else. Well after a bit of wondering and a scan it was an ovarian cyst that had ruptured. This really is the responsibility of the patient and is something that needs to be addressed and maybe a box on the form would be the best way to address this. Not really sure what the best way to deal with this is.

As a gynecologist, I can relate to this.  As the number of people who are transgender increases, it is important to remember that there will always be health issues specific to their chromosomal makeup and that, especially in cases where surgery has been performed, everyone needs to be on the same page as to the anatomic features that may or may not be present.  A couple of friends have had male to female transgender patients present to their office for gynecologic exams without disclosing their medical history and then, after the exam, the individual expressed their happiness that the doctor hadn't been able to tell that their biologic gender from the exam (many postop transgender women closely resemble a biologic woman who has had a hysterectomy physically).  It's important that everyone be upfront with their doctor as to their medical history including gender at birth, if pertinent.

[Scarlett45]

13 hours ago, spacefly said:

Interesting conversation with my BIL the Dr this weekend. He had stated that he does not care what gender someone IDs with and that it is none of his business to question it. He said he wants a check box next to gender that says what your chromosomes were (and still are) at birth. He has a patient come into the ER with severe acute abdominal pain and the patient had checked the MALE box on intake and never indicated differently. My BIL spent some time arguing with other Drs that it was not an appendix and that it must be something else. Well after a bit of wondering and a scan it was an ovarian cyst that had ruptured. This really is the responsibility of the patient and is something that needs to be addressed and maybe a box on the form would be the best way to address this. Not really sure what the best way to deal with this is.

I think a biological sex marker for medical purposes is a different situation than an M/F on a photo id. Actually though most people never have cause to have their chromosomes tested. Unless you have ambiguous genitalia at birth or some type of other medical issue down the line it isn't confirmed if you're XX or XY or XXY or XO etc. granted most people are either XY or XX but intersex people do exist (2% of the population was the last figure I can recall) and should be acknowledged medically just as transgender people should be. 

What about on medical forms if we had gender as well as sex assigned at birth if different?

[doodlebug]

48 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think a biological sex marker for medical purposes is a different situation than an M/F on a photo id. Actually though most people never have cause to have their chromosomes tested. Unless you have ambiguous genitalia at birth or some type of other medical issue down the line it isn't confirmed if you're XX or XY or XXY or XO etc. granted most people are either XY or XX but intersex people do exist (2% of the population was the last figure I can recall) and should be acknowledged medically just as transgender people should be. 

What about on medical forms if we had gender as well as sex assigned at birth if different?

That's why the issue is so thorny.  The definition of intersex is not well defined, but the incidence is more like 1:2000 people, not 2%. Even looking at situations where perhaps subtle genital variations were not picked up in infancy, I don't see an incidence of 2% being likely. I've been delivering babies for 35 years and the incidence of ambiguous genitalia at birth is quite small.  Most of the ones I've seen were in children who were stillborn or had multiple other severe birth defects; so many don't survive.  Nowadays, with the availability of genetic counseling and rapid testing of DNA, most babies with ambiguous genitalia are evaluated and gender determined relatively soon after birth.  It's becoming more and more evident that gender is a complicated issue and I am not sure we could come up with a form that would accommodate every possible situation.  

[Caracoa1]

I fully support Jazz an her journey but I do have a question and ask with all respect.  If Jazz had her DNA tested, would it show she is biologically male or would it show her as being female due to all the hormones she is taking?

[doodlebug]

4 hours ago, Caracoa1 said:

I fully support Jazz an her journey but I do have a question and ask with all respect.  If Jazz had her DNA tested, would it show she is biologically male or would it show her as being female due to all the hormones she is taking?

DNA doesn't change, her cells would contain both an X and a Y chromosome indicating she is genetically male.

However, there are genetic conditions such as mosaicism, in which not all the cells contain the same genetic makeup.  I work with a woman who had leukemia as a child and received a bone marrow transplant from her brother.  If a sample of her blood were to be DNA tested, it would indicate a male karyotype (chromosomal makeup).

[winsomeone]

When Jazz was just a small child of 3-4, and asking her mother Am I a boy or a girl?, was that because of a hormonal imbalance of some sort, or was it her brain that couldn't decide which she was? If it was hormonal, I am wondering why Jazz wasn't given testosterone to see if that would make a difference in the way she felt about herself. Or if a girl child had the same problem, give her estrogen? If it worked, it sure would make her life a lot easier.

[ClareWalks]

4 minutes ago, winsomeone said:

When Jazz was just a small child of 3-4, and asking her mother Am I a boy or a girl?, was that because of a hormonal imbalance of some sort, or was it her brain that couldn't decide which she was? If it was hormonal, I am wondering why Jazz wasn't given testosterone to see if that would make a difference in the way she felt about herself. Or if a girl child had the same problem, give her estrogen? If it worked, it sure would make her life a lot easier.

I don't think those hormones really come into play until puberty, and they affect the development of secondary sex characteristics so I'm not sure what havoc they'd wreak on a young child.

[TwirlyGirly]

45 minutes ago, winsomeone said:

When Jazz was just a small child of 3-4, and asking her mother Am I a boy or a girl?, was that because of a hormonal imbalance of some sort, or was it her brain that couldn't decide which she was? If it was hormonal, I am wondering why Jazz wasn't given testosterone to see if that would make a difference in the way she felt about herself. Or if a girl child had the same problem, give her estrogen? If it worked, it sure would make her life a lot easier.

 

38 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

I don't think those hormones really come into play until puberty, and they affect the development of secondary sex characteristics so I'm not sure what havoc they'd wreak on a young child.

Science has not determined the specific cause(s) of  Gender Dysphoria as of yet, although research into problems involving prenatal exposure to hormones looks promising.

During fetal development, the genitalia develop BEFORE the hormones sexualize the brain. These hormones actually affect brain structure, making either a "male brain" or a "female brain." All fetuses are exposed to prenatal hormones (sexualization of the brain is an essential part of fetal development), but things can go wrong. Too much of one hormone, too little of another. To what extent these types of issues affect an individual's gender identification and/or sexual orientation after birth is still being studied. 

I am still looking for a mouse study I found a few months ago which showed there is a very narrow window of time (IIRC, three or four days) during mouse fetal development during which if a hormone imbalance was discovered, it could be treated. After that "window" closed, the structures of the brain involved with gender identification/sexual orientation were complete and attempts to change them were futile. If I find that study again, I'll post the link.

From what I remember, Jazz did not ask "Am I a boy or a girl?" IIRC, she said she was a girl from a very early age. As a matter of fact, when doctors are diagnosing gender dysphoria vs gender nonconforming, one of the things they look at is whether the child states "I am a girl" or I am a boy" (gender dysphoria) versus saying "I want to be a girl," "I want to be a boy," or asking whether they are a girl or a boy (gender nonconforming).

There are multiple studies showing the majority of children who are gender non-conforming eventually "grow out of it" (desist) while the majority of children who are truly gender dysphoric do not. The problem with many of the studies (especially those popular among conservatives) which claim a high percentage of children who are gender dysphoric eventually desist is those studies include children who are gender non-conforming in their sample, thus leading to inaccurate results. The majority of children who meet the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria - who have been formally diagnosed by a medical profession specializing in these issues - remain gender dysphoric.

[CousinAmy]

Several years ago I was diagnosed with dysphoria - meaning sadness, depression or general unhappiness. (I have suffered from depression since I was in elementary school.)  I wonder why the word is paired with "gender" - meaning, "I'm sad about my gender." I think in a few years that term will be - or should be - dropped. It just sounds like the person is chronically sad, in which case an anti-depressive should be given. It trivializes the conditio

[TwirlyGirly]

2 hours ago, CousinAmy said:

Several years ago I was diagnosed with dysphoria - meaning sadness, depression or general unhappiness. (I have suffered from depression since I was in elementary school.)  I wonder why the word is paired with "gender" - meaning, "I'm sad about my gender." I think in a few years that term will be - or should be - dropped. It just sounds like the person is chronically sad, in which case an anti-depressive should be given. It trivializes the conditio

According to Wikipedia, and the dictionary, "dysphoria" is defined as:

"[A] profound state of unease or dissatisfaction. In a psychiatric context, dysphoria may accompany depression, anxiety, or agitation. It can also refer to a state of not being comfortable in one's current body, particularly in cases of gender dysphoria. Common reactions to dysphoria include emotional distress, in some cases, even physical distress is seen. The opposite state of mind is known as euphoria", and "[A] a state of feeling very unhappy, uneasy, or dissatisfied".

So, in a medical sense, "dysphoria" does not only refer to "sadness, depression, or general unhappiness". Those who have been diagnosed as having Gender Dysphoria may be sad and/or depressed and/or unhappy, but they primarily demonstrate emotional and/or physical distress/uneasiness/dissatisfaction due to their physical body not being aligned with their gender identity.

[doodlebug]

18 hours ago, winsomeone said:

When Jazz was just a small child of 3-4, and asking her mother Am I a boy or a girl?, was that because of a hormonal imbalance of some sort, or was it her brain that couldn't decide which she was? If it was hormonal, I am wondering why Jazz wasn't given testosterone to see if that would make a difference in the way she felt about herself. Or if a girl child had the same problem, give her estrogen? If it worked, it sure would make her life a lot easier.

As noted above, I don’t think she was confused about her gender, just about why her body didn’t match her brain.

Kids at age 3 and 4 do not have appreciable levels of sex hormones naturally. A child of either gender would start to develop secondary sexual characteristics if given hormones.

A kid, boy or girl, given testosterone would get a deep voice, facial hair, pubic hair and acne.  A child given estrogen would grow breasts and a girl would get vaginal bleeding.  Obviously, none of this would be helpful.

Edited December 17, 2017 by doodlebug

[doodlebug]

Quote

The peritoneum, on the other hand, is very well innervated.  I wonder if Dr. Ting or Dr. Bowers have addressed that in their discussions with Jazz and her family?  By the way, to those who think it is disrespectful to call Marci Bowers by her first nae, I couldn't disagree more strongly.  For the longest time, doctors insisted on being called by their formal noames,, but sociologists quite rightly pointed out that this creates a barrier between doctor and patient.  Makes it harder for empathy tp exist between them.  if I were Marci bowers, I would want my patients to use my first name.  

Brought over from an episode thread.  While the peritoneum is well innervated, those nerves would be cut and then would have to regenerate after the neovagina was constructed.  Anyone who has had skin grafting or other plastic surgery where nerve endings needed to regenerate can attest to the fact that sensation is usually markedly lessened because the nerve endings never completely re-form.  I expect it would be the same with a neovagina lined with peritoneum and that most of the peritoneal nerve endings would die and not re-connect to the nervous system.

[CousinAmy]

I wonder if Jazz has any sexual feeling when she sees an attractive guy or an attractive girl? (Of course by attractive I mean handsome, beautiful, hunky, etc.) If she is getting female hormones, does she have the same sensations as a cis teenage girl? I'm not asking which one she prefers, just if she gets those flushes and tingles that I got when I had crushes in high school. (I'm 68, those flushes and crushes are very sparse these days.) 

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, CousinAmy said:

I wonder if Jazz has any sexual feeling when she sees an attractive guy or an attractive girl? (Of course by attractive I mean handsome, beautiful, hunky, etc.) If she is getting female hormones, does she have the same sensations as a cis teenage girl? I'm not asking which one she prefers, just if she gets those flushes and tingles that I got when I had crushes in high school. (I'm 68, those flushes and crushes are very sparse these days.) 

Well I would think cis girls are very different in how they experience sexual feelings. I’m a cis gendered heterosexual woman, but when you say “flushes and tingles” to me that codes as ROMANTIC feelings, sexual feelings tend to manifest as my heart beating faster and blood rushing to my gentials, vaginal lubrication etc the two are distinct even as a teen (I’m 32 so it wasn’t that long ago). 

I do think cis girls are conditioned to think of the two as intertwined although they may not always be.

I do wonder how she would describe attraction.