Lorelai and Luke

[amensisterfriend]

I love this couple less than most GG fans do, but even I think it's ridiculous that they don't have their own thread :) This is the place to chat about them! Both praise and snark are welcome, though I'm thinking that the Lorelai vs Luke 'blame game' never turns out being too much fun for anyone, so I for one will try strenuously to avoid it! 

 

If you guys had to pick 10-15 or so favorite L/L scenes throughout the series, what would they be??? 

 

We all know that Luke and Lorelai have many differences and are arguably even total opposites, but what do you see them as having in common? 

 

Did you like them more as friends-with-the-potential-to-become-more, an official romantic pairing, or both? 

 

As friends, I liked about a zillion of their scenes and will come back when I've narrowed it down. 

 

As a couple, I'm actually finding I liked some of their first half S6 scenes more than almost anything we got in S5. 

[lulu1960]

As you may know the whole reason I got into GG was because I watched the Season 4 finale and immediately because a L/L shipper. 

In no particular order.

 

The ice hug (yes I admit it I love it)

The behind the counter encounter (We won't spruce that spot)

The great chick escape (Just cracks me up)

Meltdown in the town square. (Luke's comfort was so him)

The Waltz (All said with just looks)

Just Stand Still. (Finally)

You just keep thinking how you'd think (Lorelai just looks in love there)

Everything about DUAV. Lorelai is really there for Luke

I'm all in. (Come on he kept the horiscope)

Storming the castle (Actions really do speak)

The dream scene. (That's the way it should have ended up.)

The watching movies together (It's a gut thing)

Luke's rant about if they weren't in a relationship he wouldn't be cooking at the inn. But since they are he can't do anything. (He's totally whipped. LOL)

The jacket pull at their first town meeting as a couple. It was so couple-ly

Luke is there when she has the meltdown about Paul Anka but it's really all about Rory.

Handful of Barbie. Lorelai is ready to kick Jess' ass on Luke's behalf.

[amensisterfriend]

Amazing list, lulu, just as I would expect from you :) 

 

A few favorites that you didn't include: 

 

'Sprucing' up the place and Luke confiding in Lorelai about his father 

 

Confirming they're among those few people who will always be in each other's lives (Run Away, Little Boy)

 

Card playing and chatting about dating in Double Date (Weirdly enough, I'm not sure I ever see stronger, more powerful romantic chemistry between them than in that episode!) 

 

Luke encouraging Lorelai in her dream of opening an inn and totally getting just how she feels about Rory eventually going to college (Road Trip to Harvard)

 

"You can pull sausages out of me anytime"---21 is the Loneliest Number---sweet and funny and an awesomely GG-esque way of showing he GETS her (those moments tended to be sadly short supply once they started dating!) 

 

Wearing matching soccer uniforms and bonding over how terrifying those little girls were (LMHYBRO)

 

Luke building a chuppah for her even when she plans to marry another man 

 

Lorelai's rambling messages on Luke's answering machine in Say Something---hard to listen to, yes, but funny and sad and, for me, extremely relatable! 

Edited July 13, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[lulu1960]

Ah yes. I did forget quite a few. Always too many to remember off the top of my head.

The sausage one says so much with just a silly sentence. 

[Kohola3]

The Waltz.  Just perfect.

[lulu1960]

The Waltz.  Just perfect.

 

I just really enjoyed that a lot was said without any words. Shy looks, slowly moving in closer, smiles. It really was quite romantic.

[amensisterfriend]

Are there any other fictional couples who remind you guys of Lorelai/Luke? I just watched Bringing Up Baby (starring the incomparable Katherine Hepburn and Cary Grant), and they actually struck me as somewhat similar: She's zany and energetic and determined and acts impulsively and based on her emotions/instincts; he's more serious, levelheaded, reserved, routinized, etc. Granted, Cary Grant's character is a professor and an intellectual while Luke...isn't, but S1 Luke was smart and cared about certain sociopolitical issues, right?! And their dynamic is similar: Susan annoys and baffles David but also brings him out of his shell and exposes him to fun and adventure that he wouldn't have sought out on his own while he grounds her and brings out (at least in theory!) a depth and seriousness some might have thought her incapable of. 

 

I remember AS-P once talking about how much she was influenced by those 1930s/1940s 'screwball' comedies, and you could totally see a certain GG-ness (let's pretend that's a word!) in Bringing Up Baby: quirkiness, witty and rapid fire dialogue, arguments that serve as the couple's way of showing chemistry and passion, etc. Watching David and Susan chase that tiger around even reminded me a little of Luke and Lorelai pursuing that wayward chick in That Damn Donna Reed! 

Edited July 31, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[eledgy]

Bringing Up Baby is one of my faves!  Your analysis of the David/Susan Luke/Lorelai parallels is great.

 

Now, if you're able to see Christopher and Lorelai as the meant to be true love couple in GG, you could see a Philadelphia Story thing with Lorelai as the rich girl in denial (Katherine Hepburn), Christopher as the former love who knows her so well, Luke as the attractive temptation, able to keep up with her to a certain extent and clearly attracted to her, but a good guy in the end who won't take advantage (Jimmy Stewart), and Max, maybe, as the bland clueless guy she is planning to marry but who clearly doesn't really get her and is kind of condescending (whoever the actor was who played the boring guy).

 

I think I've wandered more into fan fic realm than an intelligent discussion of L and L... but speaking of fanfic, I think I read a Rory centric one sometime in the past few months where Rory is set to marry a bland Dean (they got together later than in the show I think...), Logan as the Jimmy Stewart reporter brought in to cover the socialite wedding, and Jess as the Cary Grant ex who knows her so well...  forget if it was finished and other details, will see if I can find it again....

[amensisterfriend]

I'm in love with your post, Eledgy...I'd write more, but now I need to rewatch Philadelphia Story for the zillionth or so time :)  

[eledgy]

 

now I need to rewatch Philadelphia Story for the zillionth or so time

 

Then my work here is done!  :-)  

[amensisterfriend]

So during which episodes/seasons do you guys think Luke and Lorelai had the most romantic chemistry? I'd imagine that the end of S4/S5 will be a popular pick, but after rewatching some of S1 last night I was blown away all over again by how much chemistry they had in that first season and how blatantly the 'when will they get together?!" stuff was addressed in conversations with Emily, Rory, etc. despite the fact that that season gave us Luke/Rachel and Lorelai/Max. The Luke/Lorelai chemistry was so strong in episodes like Double Date and That Damn Donna Reed that even someone like me, not generally a java junkie, was all 'just kiss already!" I'm not sure if it's because I find Luke himself sharper, more interesting and therefore sexier in S1 or because the show just wrote and directed them differently than they did later on, but for whatever reason S1 is when I definitely see the most romantic sparks! 

[junienmomo]

So during which episodes/seasons do you guys think Luke and Lorelai had the most romantic chemistry?

...for whatever reason S1 is when I definitely see the most romantic sparks! 

 

Definitely S1. The Palladinos really blew everything they had on S1 romance. For me, all the other seasons had some other overwhelming theme that frustrated the L/L shippers while tossing them the occasional bone. 

I'm currently viewing it this way:

 

S1: Romance lifted from screwball comedies and placed into modern day. Beautifully executed, even if the basic structure is formulaic. The details and dialog aren't formulaic.

 

S2: Luke's unrequited love season, Lorelai's friendship season. Lorelai showed moments of envy, but mostly floated through the season uncaring and denying that Luke cared. 

 

S3: Luke manages to suppress the unrequited love and outwardly go full-friendship mode with Lorelai. Too bad, because there would have been immense romantic co-parenting opportunities for the couple.

 

S4: TPTB threw just enough romantic bones so we finally got a clue that Lorelai might realize that Luke was in the possible partner pool.

 

S5: The small romantic moments are almost universally strangled by showrunners refusing to let L/L have the PDAs expected of a One True Pairing, and the big romantic moments are spoiled by Lorelai's lies and Luke's sullenness.

 

S6: It's so painful to watch Pod L/L that I have to steel myself before I go looking for some of the very beautiful partner romantic moments, like "Hole!" I mean honestly, how often do the Paladinos think I'm willing to bang my head against a brick wall?

 

S7: The brick wall question is answered by French Twist. Only in the last episodes of the season do we get the Luke who just wants Lorelai to be happy back, sadly with Lorelai still saying, "I sang him a love song that I originally started singing for my daughter. Why doesn't the guy (who spent the rest of a day or more negotiating an insane repair to my car so I can keep my utterly unfeasible romantic notions of my car going) EVER give me a sign that he loves me?

 

Not that I'm still bitter after ten years or anything. ;)

[eledgy]

So much love for your whole post, Junie!

[amensisterfriend]

Heh---yeah, I pretty much agree with your assessment of each season, and I feel strangely validated that even a card carrying JJ agrees that the romantic chemistry was strongest back in S1! Maybe if I had started watching in S1 I would ship them more than I do. My first episodes were from S5 (I ordered the first four seasons on DVD during the first commercial break, mainlined them the second they arrived and, as you guys know, became a lifelong addict!) so maybe my first impressions of L/L were tainted by how relatively unloving they seemed as a couple.  Not that I need or want couples constantly touching and beaming and gushing, of course---but a little more happiness, connection, compatibility and passion would have been a delight. I also find it weird that nearly all the times they were most physically affectionate came after they had been drinking (WitS, BBAM) and that even Taylor made a crack in NAIL about them 'needing' alcohol to enjoy each other in that way.  

 

I admire you JJs for still loving and shipping them despite the many missteps in writing and direction! 

[Taryn74]

LMAO.  Ah, that was perfect Junie.  Not to mention TRUE.  All of it.

[amensisterfriend]

So now I'm wondering---what about them still resonates with people after all these years and all these pretty widely acknowledged mistakes?! I know it's really hard to explain why we do or don't "ship" a given couple since so much of it comes down to just subjective chemistry and that surge of goofy happiness you get when you see your favorites together, but of course I'm annoying analytical enough to try to figure it out anyway :) If many fans think they have nothing in common, were written as flat/vaguely unhappy or even outright dysfunctional, had too rocky a history, weren't affectionate or passionate, couldn't communicate etc...what about them do people still adore and root for? What makes so many fans think they still can and are meant to be a happy, loving couple despite a fair amount of evidence to the contrary? 

 

Maybe these questions are largely rhetorical! I'm just kind of fascinated by what makes us ship and not ship in general (and, believe me, I am VERY much including myself---I'm the one who actually thought Paris/Asher 'worked', as warped as I realize it is!) 

Edited August 9, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[junienmomo]

I shipped L/L because of Season 1 and their chemistry. Generally, I love faithful unrequited love and tall, dark and ruggedly handsome. Imagine my disappointment when Darcy of the 1995 Pride and Prejudice turned out to have dyed his hair for the project. Now Colin Firth is on the second tier of attractiveness.

 

That GG first season chemistry was so much better than many contemporary romcoms. It really did capture the screwball comedies, which were also frequently populated by tall, dark and handsome. 

 

Recently I binge-watched the first two seasons of Nashville. I started watching it for Connie Britton, but by the end of S2 I found myself shipping Deacon/Rayna. Turns out I fell in love (fell in ship?) with them in the second episode where they sang their love song. That's a rarity for me because I have a strong immune reaction to alcoholic characters.

 

One last note on screwball comedies and '30's films - if they had deus ex machina kids popping up, the father would either react with "damn, another mouth to feed" or take it completely in stride. This new version in which Luke goes all POD on Lorelai and Deacon takes up drinking again is disturbing. 

 

Mini-rant: to all these characters who think it makes sense to hide the pregnancy and baby from the father - raspberries to you! If the father is in the mother's life in any way, he should be present at the first pregnancy test. If he's not, he should still be informed ASAP. I find it utterly irresponsible of the mothers to do otherwise. In Rayna's case I would have tolerated waiting until he was sober for a short period, but that's all.

[Anela]

I've just watched the episode with the Poes, and when they're both laying there (in separate beds) in Luke's apartment, and Lorelai is talking about the dream she had - there was that tension there. 

[ghoulina]

Okay, I'm like a month late, but I just now found this thread. Can I play too? 

 

Here are my top 15 L/L moments:

 

 

1. Luke immediately closing up shop and taking Lorelei to the hospital when Richard collapses. (Forgiveness)

 

2. Luke and Lorelei talking about Rachel staying during Firelight festival.  (Star Crossed)  

 

3. Luke builds her a chuppa (Red Light)

 

4. Lorelei sleeping at Luke's and telling about the  dream she had about them. (Poes)

 

5. Luke and Lorelei bantering over the mattress. (First Day at Yale)

 

6. Movie night with Casablanca (Fundamental Things)

 

7. Lorelei crying to Luke and asking for loan (Sinking Loreleis)

 

8. The waltz at Liz's wedding. (Last Week Fights)

 

9. The first kiss (Raincoats)

 

10. Luke's "I'm all in" speech.  (Written in the Stars)

 

11. The tensions backstage during Fiddler (Jews and Chinese Food)

 

12. The reunion kiss (So Good Talk)

 

13. Luke ranting about how to help Rory and the ensuing proposal (House is not a Home)

 

14. Lorelei serenading Luke with "I will always love you". (Lorelei? Lorelei?)

 

15. Luke giving her the jewelry and everything else he does in - Bon Voyage

 

 

 

Ironically, most of my favorite moments are from when they're not together. =)

[amensisterfriend]

Ironically, most of my favorite moments are from when they're not together. =)

 

Mine too! 

[Guest]

S7: The brick wall question is answered by French Twist. Only in the last episodes of the season do we get the Luke who just wants Lorelai to be happy back, sadly with Lorelai still saying, "I sang him a love song that I originally started singing for my daughter. Why doesn't the guy (who spent the rest of a day or more negotiating an insane repair to my car so I can keep my utterly unfeasible romantic notions of my car going) EVER give me a sign that he loves me?

 

This might be the truest sentence ever written to depict Lorelai Season 7.

[alexa]

I like this thread because I like Luke and Lorelai.  In many ways I find their relationship better than most because it involves a history, friendship, the way they try to understand each other but accept each others differences, and just those day to day things they do (even way before the relationship took off).  I am all for romance and passion, but I think for the long term some of the best relationships are the ones where you are partners, best friends, and simply there for each other.

 

That all said, I know they have many moments that are not ideal based on writing issues and storylines, so I am speaking more about the buildup of the relationship and what they offer each other in general.

[Taryn74]

I am all for romance and passion, but I think for the long term some of the best relationships are the ones where you are partners, best friends, and simply there for each other.

 

Wholeheartedly agree.  I know it doesn't make for good television, heh, but give me a nice "boring" relationship between two good friends who genuinely get along and look to help each other out over the spark and sizzle of a couple who go from bickering/fighting to falling into bed together, any day.

[cam3150]

I just started re-watching the series last night from the beginning. Granted, I have seen the entire series at least 6 times but it's been a few years and discovering some amazing L/L fanfic has made me want to watch again (whyyyyyyy couldn't it have been THAT way instead of what we actually got????).  I am a TV junkie. I watch upwards of 20 show each season. But GG is the ONLY series I own in its entirety and it's the only series that I have ever re-watched the whole thing.

 

Anyway, I really did forget how good the chemistry was in S1. I'm only 6 episodes in and the L/L moments are few and far between at this moment but the ones that are there are really great.   I forgot how early the whole "Luke and Lorelai" thing started.

I have already noticed one very subtle moment I am not sure I've ever noticed before that, for me, really illustrated how "all in" Luke was even then.  It was a scene where Lorelai and Rory were walking by the diner late one night. They stop outside on the sidewalk and Luke is inside cleaning up for the night.  Lorelai asks Rory if she thinks Luke is cute. They have a conversation  about how Lorelai can never date Luke because they'll just break up and then the Girls will lose their precious coffee access.   Anyway, they keep walking past the diner and out in the street.  The camera pans out enough for you to see the entire street view from above, the scene not really focused on anything since it's the ending of the show.  But in the background, Luke comes out of the diner to stand on the steps and watch the Girls walk away.  He gives them this wave (that they don't even see because their backs are to him) then he turns and switches the sign to "Closed" and goes inside. 

 

You can just tell from Luke's mannerisms that he was keeping the diner open for them and he's so hopeful that they will turn around and come inside. He only closes it when he realizes they're not coming in.   Again, very subtle but it just points to how long the "unrequited love" thing was going on for him.

[amensisterfriend]

Wholeheartedly agree.  I know it doesn't make for good television, heh, but give me a nice "boring" relationship between two good friends who genuinely get along and look to help each other out over the spark and sizzle of a couple who go from bickering/fighting to falling into bed together, any day.

 

Absolutely, but---(and after one last ramble I'll leave the thread to more positive L/L fans!)---the problem for some of us is that L/L still engaged in the bickering/fighting and just general failures to connect and communicate *without* the passion that sometimes goes with that. I think there's also a way to make the bickering banter sound more playful than irritated, and for me with L/L it often crossed into the latter category while they were dating.

And just to be clear, I have no interest in seeing TV couples all over each other physically, but a little natural affection, a few more smiles rather than sighs of pure exasperation and signs that they were even mildly attracted to each other while sober would not have gone amiss. The actors often looked like it pained them to have to exchange even chaste pecks on the cheek, and overall L/L just gave the impression of having little to no chemistry and compatibility in my very unpopular opinion :) The friendship between them that I once loved was largely lacking once they became a couple as well---they became just two VERY different people who seemed not to get each other or even take much interest in getting each other. It was sometimes hard for me to see that they even still loved each other as friends, let alone as more. 

 

I feel like 'opposite' couples can work when each brings out different strengths in the other---like if Lorelai had made Luke a little happier and more fun and less prone to angry complaining (though she didn't---if anything, Luke became even more negative and joyless once they started dating) or if Luke grounded Lorelai (which...eh, maybe sometimes what some of us see as her becoming less effervescent around him was supposed to signify contentment and maturity?!)---or even if one of them had explored the other's interests for just an episode, like if Lorelai had gone camping. Even if she hated it, it would have shown some effort to connect...and likely proved amusing for us viewers to watch :)

 

I actually think the show did a slightly better job of dealing with the opposite people who date thing with Logan and Rory---he helped her step outside her comfort zone, and she made him (relatively!) more responsible and serious. Rory and Logan also had some clear commonality as well, while the writers seemed more interested in pounding home that Luke and Lorelai are a different species. (Just to be clear, I'm certainly not extolling Logan/Rory as some sort of ideal couple, just pointing out that the show did a better job of showing how their differences could sometimes be strengths rather than liabilities!) I've also been watching Castle and like how that couple's differences are often more complementary than just indicators of incompatibility. And Beckett and Castle, too, have at least a little bit in common once you get past the initial differences. (Beckett and Castle, like Luke and Lorelai, do seem to have less chemistry once they become a bona fide couple...though still a lot more than L/L IMO)

 

It's actually while watching Castle and finding myself loving that show's couple despite their issues and differences that I realized I need to permanently retire from analyzing what did and didn't work about L/L and trying to like and 'get' them more than I do :) This stuff is just so wildly subjective! Sometimes you just connect with a fictional couple and understand intuitively how they get each other. You feel like they're just 'supposed' to be together despite their flaws and obstacles and complicated past and know they love each other no matter what. I wish so much I felt that way about L/L, but I totally respect (and in many way genuinely envy!) my fellow fans who do :) 

Edited August 13, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[cam3150]

The actors often looked like it pained them to have to exchange even chaste pecks on the cheek,

 

 

I have always heard that Lauren Graham and Scott Patterson didn't really care for each other. I wonder how true that was because you can see it in the "dating" years, that most of their physical interactions seemed so forced. 

 

When I think of Luke and Lorelai and the time that they were actually together, I actually get sad rather than happy.  There were just so very many things wrong with their relationship once they got together, most all of which has already been mentioned.  But they really were just different people then, or the actors portrayed them differently anyway.  Whether that was how they were directed or just fatigue from playing the rolls for so long, I'm not really sure.  They did have some good "dating" moments but most of their best moments came before the first kiss.  The biggest travesty IMO was that awful last season and having Lorelai not only sleep with Christopher but get married to him - I will never, ever get over this.  I can see them bringing Christopher in as a distraction (and I hate we will never know what ASP would have done with L/L at the end) but I hate that we just never got any resolution / closure between the two of them. A semi-friendly conversation in a hay bale maze at the end of the series does not count either.

 

I will always love the Luke and Lorelai friendship, Luke's years of unrequited love ( I do love me some angst), and the promise of what could have been with their dating relationship.  I guess I will have to rely on fan fiction to see what them being truly happy could have looked like bu I will always regret that we never saw it played out on screen.

Edited August 14, 2015 by cam3150

[dustylil]

In an interview I read some years ago Lauren Graham actually questioned the lack of physical contact between Lorelai and Luke during the time they were dating. Apparently she didn't think it particularly plausible. However, the showrunners instructed her to play the scenes as directed and so she did.

[Kohola3]

However, the showrunners instructed her to play the scenes as directed and so she did.

 

ASP must have a cold, solitary marriage with no physical contact. That's the only reason I can imagine for the lack of physical contact.  It was just so glaringly absent.  I understand (somewhat) the lack of "I love you" moments as that can be overdone.  But no hand holding, no touching, no arm around the shoulder?  That was mostly done BEFORE they got together.  I loved Lorelai taking Luke's arm during Uncle Louie's funeral.  And Luke with his arm around her when she was breaking down about her failure.  They really did show more physical warmth at the beginning. 

 

Too bad ASP went the hands-off route when it counted.

[ghoulina]

In an interview I read some years ago Lauren Graham actually questioned the lack of physical contact between Lorelai and Luke during the time they were dating. Apparently she didn't think it particularly plausible. However, the showrunners instructed her to play the scenes as directed and so she did.

 

That makes sense to me. Because I actually DO see chemistry between them, just in the way they look at each other. But where were the hugs hello and goodbye? The little pats on the arm? I also thought it odd they hardly said "I love you". I always thought their cold interactions while actually dating were a writing issue, so it's nice to have some confirmation with that. 

[Smad]

ASP totally ruined them when she actually put them together and I've never understod why she chose to portray it like she did. I mean the reason why I wanted them together in the first place was because they worked exactly as they were. But it also shows how limited ASP is as a storyteller and how bad it is when a showrunner doesn't allow input from anyone. I've also had the feeling that she sabotaged the whole thing on purpose because the network basically forced her to put them together. I bet if it were up to Amy we would have had to wait till the last episode of the series (if ever).

 

The whole 'no touching' rule confused the hell out of me. When you rewatch the early Seasons Lorelai is constantly touching Luke in some way even if it's just a touch on the arm or swatting his chest. These two were literally each others best friend because they were willing to be open and vulnerable with each other yet as soon as they get together they don't talk or communicate and everything is a secret. Then ASP eventually took their banter away too and I felt like I had landed in the Twilight Zone.

 

The artifical external road blocks were also soap worthy to the extreme. Did we really need the Christopher shaped plot device and long lost daughter? Shouldn't the conflict and difficulty of making this relationship work have come from their problems as individual people? Lorelai 'need forklift for my baggage' Gilmore and Luke 'table for one' Danes are two proud, independant, headstrong and very damaged people and having problems erupt from that would have been all the conflict they needed.

 

I think some fanfic writers are so much better at tackling exactly that kind of stuff and being able to capture both their humerous and serious sides that it makes you wonder wtf ASP's problem was.

[BellyLaughter]

ASP totally ruined them when she actually put them together and I've never understod why she chose to portray it like she did. I mean the reason why I wanted them together in the first place was because they worked exactly as they were. But it also shows how limited ASP is as a storyteller and how bad it is when a showrunner doesn't allow input from anyone. I've also had the feeling that she sabotaged the whole thing on purpose because the network basically forced her to put them together. I bet if it were up to Amy we would have had to wait till the last episode of the series (if ever).

 

The whole 'no touching' rule confused the hell out of me. When you rewatch the early Seasons Lorelai is constantly touching Luke in some way even if it's just a touch on the arm or swatting his chest. These two were literally each others best friend because they were willing to be open and vulnerable with each other yet as soon as they get together they don't talk or communicate and everything is a secret. Then ASP eventually took their banter away too and I felt like I had landed in the Twilight Zone.

 

The artifical external road blocks were also soap worthy to the extreme. Did we really need the Christopher shaped plot device and long lost daughter? Shouldn't the conflict and difficulty of making this relationship work have come from their problems as individual people? Lorelai 'need forklift for my baggage' Gilmore and Luke 'table for one' Danes are two proud, independant, headstrong and very damaged people and having problems erupt from that would have been all the conflict they needed.

 

I think some fanfic writers are so much better at tackling exactly that kind of stuff and being able to capture both their humerous and serious sides that it makes you wonder wtf ASP's problem was.

 

When Lorelai went to Chris at the end of S6 that's when I stopped watching....I will always believe that she was sent there by ASP to deliberately deflate a show she had lost control of.  I don't actually blame ASP for making that move (as disappointing as it was) considering how ridiculous the negotiations with the network had gotten but that moment killed the L+L romance for me forever....there was no going back.  Chris was an overused trope that needed to be gone in S5 when even his own daughter was well and truly done with his s**t!!  Nearly 10 years on and I have absolutely no regret jumping off the ship at that point....I refuse to bang my head against a wall when it comes to TV shows.  It's a trait that has served me well.

 

Granted L+L were magic in the first season -- just magic.

[Kohola3]

.I will always believe that she was sent there by ASP to deliberately deflate a show she had lost control of.

 

I felt that as well...and also mostly bailed at that point.  I have since watched a few of the later episodes but hate Chris and that horrible April storyline so intensely that I can't get through most of them.  ASP set up the new writers with the opportunity to totally screw up a winning combination of characters and sadly they ran with it.  Even the final episode was, to me, a huge disappointment.

[Smad]

The Chris shaped plot device had so many problems (way more than the LLD) that left me scratching my head. ASP always wanted to do L/C and her original plan was the end of S2 into S3. Which would have been the ideal time. But she was a moron and didn't secure DS in time. Then she did the S2 finale / S3 premiere as she did and that should have killed L/C right there. Apparently not. Then comes S5 and Wedding Bell Blues which should have eliminated Chris as a romantic possibility FOREVER. Am I supposed to believe that Lorelai is really that dumb that she doesn't understand that when a guy tries to destroy your happiness/relationship he can't possibly be in love with you?

 

The dichotamy in Lorelai's character when it comes to Chris vs everyone else will never make sense to me. And it's the main reason why I don't really ship L/L anymore. Because despite all of Luke's mistakes in S6 (read: character assasination) the Chris thing has been consistant over the whole duration of the show and it made me lose all respect for Lorelai. And I won't ship a couple where I don't respect one of them. Unless it's 2 villains hooking up or something. But I don't think ASP or anyone else actually ever bothered to connect the dots like some viewers did and see the whole picture and how wrong that picture is. Did ASP have the hots for DS or something that she would never let go of wanting to do the L/C thing?

 

I had so much eye rolling going on while watching the ATX panel that I was afraid they would roll right out of my head. Couldn't any of them be freaking honest? ASP talking about bringing L/L together only once they were sure what would come after. Give me a break. We know it was due to network pressure because of ratings dropping like crazy. It most certainly was not what she had planned. And the fact that the only way that ASP could create conflict within the couple was via external roadblocks (Lorelai's parents, Chris and LLD with a giant heaping of character assasinations) clearly shows she had no freaking idea what she was doing. Or she really is that talentless.

 

Lauren Graham suddenly being on the L/L side of things was totally unbelievable as well. Did she and DS have a falling out or something so she jumped ship? She's always been on the L/C side of things with nonsense like 'wishfullfillment' and 'nuclear family'. And I guess because she and DS were good friends and had fun working together. So either her sudden change in preference was because DS wasn't at the reunion, keeping good PR for a possible future GG project or her and DS having a falling out. But it was nonsense to me. Then again I have never taken LG's opinions regarding the show seriously. Like she admitted at ATX (and just like she has done since GG was still airing) she doesn't watch the show. I wonder if she would still hold the same opinions if she actually saw it. And therefore the whole picture.

[Kohola3]

Or she really is that talentless.

 

That has always been my vote.  Along with clueless and uncaring as to what the audience enjoyed or expected.

[BellyLaughter]

The constant character assassinations is ASPs style....her writing always comes from a very cynical place! Kind of makes you wonder how her own life has shaped up!!

[FictionLover]

I am commenting on the question: We all know that Luke and Lorelai have many differences and are arguably even total opposites, but what do you see them as having in common?

 

They obviously have many differences with diet, exercise, sports, etc. but I do see many similarities.  They both hang on to things and are sentimental; Luke's diner with the William's Hardware sign, his truck, Rachel’s sweatshirt, his blue hat, the horoscope and old artifacts in his apartment. Lorelai understood this about him when she bought his boat for him.  She didn’t want to sell her house when he was buying the Twichem (probably spelled incorrectly) house for them and he understood that about her, she loved tradition, not wanting to replace her jeep.  It seemed to me that this was displayed throughout the series and I felt they did “get” each other.

[CalamityBoPeep]

The Chris shaped plot device had so many problems (way more than the LLD) that left me scratching my head. ASP always wanted to do L/C and her original plan was the end of S2 into S3. Which would have been the ideal time. But she was a moron and didn't secure DS in time. Then she did the S2 finale / S3 premiere as she did and that should have killed L/C right there. Apparently not. Then comes S5 and Wedding Bell Blues which should have eliminated Chris as a romantic possibility FOREVER. Am I supposed to believe that Lorelai is really that dumb that she doesn't understand that when a guy tries to destroy your happiness/relationship he can't possibly be in love with you?

 

The dichotamy in Lorelai's character when it comes to Chris vs everyone else will never make sense to me. And it's the main reason why I don't really ship L/L anymore. Because despite all of Luke's mistakes in S6 (read: character assasination) the Chris thing has been consistant over the whole duration of the show and it made me lose all respect for Lorelai. And I won't ship a couple where I don't respect one of them. Unless it's 2 villains hooking up or something. But I don't think ASP or anyone else actually ever bothered to connect the dots like some viewers did and see the whole picture and how wrong that picture is. Did ASP have the hots for DS or something that she would never let go of wanting to do the L/C thing?

 

I had so much eye rolling going on while watching the ATX panel that I was afraid they would roll right out of my head. Couldn't any of them be freaking honest? ASP talking about bringing L/L together only once they were sure what would come after. Give me a break. We know it was due to network pressure because of ratings dropping like crazy. It most certainly was not what she had planned. And the fact that the only way that ASP could create conflict within the couple was via external roadblocks (Lorelai's parents, Chris and LLD with a giant heaping of character assasinations) clearly shows she had no freaking idea what she was doing. Or she really is that talentless.

 

Lauren Graham suddenly being on the L/L side of things was totally unbelievable as well. Did she and DS have a falling out or something so she jumped ship? She's always been on the L/C side of things with nonsense like 'wishfullfillment' and 'nuclear family'. And I guess because she and DS were good friends and had fun working together. So either her sudden change in preference was because DS wasn't at the reunion, keeping good PR for a possible future GG project or her and DS having a falling out. But it was nonsense to me. Then again I have never taken LG's opinions regarding the show seriously. Like she admitted at ATX (and just like she has done since GG was still airing) she doesn't watch the show. I wonder if she would still hold the same opinions if she actually saw it. And therefore the whole picture.

 

I know it's an old post, but I just wanted to chime in here to say I totally, 100% agree.  I've always thought the only time that made sense to pursue the L/C thing was after season 2.  Since DS wasn't available, they really just should have gone with the "that ship has sailed" philosophy and let Lorelai learn and grow from that point on.  Claiming that she always had this need for "wish fulfillment" or the nuclear family thing just made her look blind and stupid as time went on.  

 

I've always blamed ASP and to some extent LG for that.  (LG for the fact that it happened in Season 7... I think she was a producer that season, and had more say in how the story went.)  They just seemed to put blinders on and refuse to see what was in front of them.  And it made the whole show suffer, as Lorelai's character wasn't allowed to grow.  I'm very much afraid we'll get the same mindset with the Netflix episodes, but I'm hoping that everyone involved will sit down and study what actually aired, and have enough distance from it  that they can approach the new stories maturely.

 

Not holding my breath though.

[dustylil]

Here  are some more things Luke and Lorelai have in common -

- both have a deep attachment to their respective families although both have problematic relationships with individual family members

- both lack "the post-adolescent, we are all adults now" ties to parents that many North American adults in their thirties have. Luke due to the sad, early passing of both his mother and father, Lorelai due to the ongoing estrangement from the senior Gilmores since her late teens

- both like small town living and have no interest in living elsewhere 

- both are quite intelligent yet neither (by the standards of the day) are well educated

- both  took  satisfaction in setting  up and then running their own successful businesses.

[Taryn74]

Both would also do anything for their families - Luke for his sister and nephew, and Lorelai for that matter; Lorelai for her SH "family".

[FictionLover]

All the examples above show how much Luke and Lorelai are not opposites in the important parts of life.

I heard a quote once "opposites attract, except for values". Sounds like them!

[Eyes High]

I've never seen an onscreen couple that seemed so profoundly uncomfortable in each other's presence during their supposed romance. Usually that level of onscreen discomfort is associated with some sort of Dark Secret, but here, it just seemed to me as if the characters visibly recoiled at any intimacy even when the story dictated that they were supposed to be madly in love. It made it very difficult to root for them; when they were kissing or even just kicking back together, their body language seemed stiff and awkward, as if merely being in each other's presence pained them. I don't know whether the actors had some sort of epic tiff that bled over into the rapport of the characters or whether they just had a terminal lack of chemistry, but something was seriously off. Say what you will about Chris and Chris/Lorelai, but at least they seemed at ease around each other.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Eyes High

[Sara2009]

I'm in the minority, but I honestly never saw any visible discomfort between Luke and Lorelai, and I looked for it. They were never as easy breezy with each other as some of the other couples, but it didn't bother me.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Sara2009

[Kohola3]

I admit I mostly FF through the episodes unless Luke is with Lorelai.  I especially love the first few seasons when they were friends and supportive of each other.  There were some really nice moments such as when Lorelai was the only other person at Luke's uncle's funeral when she slipped his arm through his.  It just seemed so natural and "them".

 

It's natural to be a bit shy and bit awkward when transitioning from friends to lovers. I thought their dance at Liz's wedding was the epitome of that transition - at first stiff and uncomfortable with a foot of space between them to dancing closely and comfortable with each other.  One of my favorite scenes....

[FictionLover]

It's interesting to see how differently everyone feels.  I watched it last year on Netflix without expectations or any history of the cast.  I live in a rural area and when GG was aired we did not have that channel and only knew the show was about a young single mom and her daughter.  I wasn't even familiar with any of the actors; they were all new to me. I didn't notice the discomfort and loved L/L's friendship and romance.  I saw an old interview with ASP on Youtube that was recorded after the L's got together and she said that they would still be funny and banter and that they wouldn't be a lovey-dovey couple.

[JayInChicago]

I kinda feel if word never got out that supposedly Lauren and Scott...anywhere from aren't good friends to can't stand each other, it's possible people wouldn't view their onscreen romance as so awkward and terrible. Like it poisoned the well a little.

I think they had decent chemistry in the early years, particularly season one. I also more or less bought them as together at the very end. But parts of season 6 are just ...they act like people who maybe just met on a plane or something and inexplicably have found themselves fiancées.

Edited November 12, 2015 by JayInChicago

[dustylil]

Given how carefully managed and directed the series was (and the fact it  provided the breakout roles for both Scott Patterson and Lauren Graham), I have difficulty believing the showrunners would allow personal animosity (if indeed there was any) between the romantic leads to govern how the couple portrayed their relationship on screen.

As I posted some months ago, Ms Graham questioned the lack of physical contact between Luke and Lorelai once they became an item but was told to play the scenes as directed. Ms Graham also apparently did not like working with animals yet the powers that be lumbered her with Paul Anka. As a result, I am not sure she had real control over her character, scenes and plotlines until the seventh season when she acquired a producing role in the show.

Certainly Ms Graham and Mr Patterson seemed quite convivial at their Austin appearance. She even had her hand on his thigh for a time while he was speaking. Lucky hand!

[amensisterfriend]

I've never seen an onscreen couple that seemed so profoundly uncomfortable in each other's presence during their supposed romance. Usually that level of onscreen discomfort is associated with some sort of Dark Secret, but here, it just seemed to me as if the characters visibly recoiled at any intimacy even when the story dictated that they were supposed to be madly in love. It made it very difficult to root for them; when they were kissing or even just kicking back together, their body language seemed stiff and awkward, as if merely being in each other's presence pained them. I don't know whether the actors had some sort of epic tiff that bled over into the rapport of the characters or whether they just had a terminal lack of chemistry, but something was seriously off.

 

So it's really not just me :) I agree 100%, and this is coming from someone who really did want to ship them. I don't know whether it's the acting, directing, writing or some unfortunate combination thereof, but I honestly don't think I can name another TV couple so painfully lacking in chemistry, compatibility, connection and joy once they finally got together. And while you're totally correct that they seemed to almost literally recoil from having to express physical affection more often than not, they seemed to lack any sort of emotional intimacy as well, with him just seeming annoyed and baffled by her and Lorelai just seeming subdued, borderline depressed and profoundly uncomfortable throughout most of their "romance." Not exactly a relationship in which each could bring out the other's better and happier selves as I had once hoped for them!  

 

 

 

Say what you will about Chris and Chris/Lorelai, but at least they seemed at ease around each other

 

Exactly! And you're clearly not supposed to root for Christopher/Lorelai for a variety of reasons, many of which are valid, but that was made more difficult than it should have been for me because Lorelai/Lauren Graham just lit up around Christopher/David Sutcliffe and seemed so glowing and happy and naturally understood in a way that she almost never did around Luke, especially once L/L got involved romantically. As a couple Luke and Lorelai just rarely seemed to even GET each other, let alone be genuinely in love with each other. And while I get the argument that they have certain values in common despite their myriad incompatibility-causing differences, the truth is that those are basic decent values that in my experience the majority of human beings possess. Remaining in your family's lives even when they're profoundly annoying? Honestly, that's true of over 99% of people I know. Not exactly a rare bond between L/L that convinces me they can be a happy, healthy, compatible couple despite the onscreen evidence to the contrary. (And by 'evidence', I obviously just mean my perception of what they were like in a relationship---it's a subjective issue, so opinions clearly vary!) 

 

I would love the revival to reveal that they realized they're far happier and better off as friends, but that's clearly not what's in store for us, so instead I'll just hope that this time around their relationship manages to have a little bit of joy, connection and spark. 

Edited November 12, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[readster]

 

Exactly! And you're clearly not supposed to root for Christopher/Lorelai for a variety of reasons, many of which are valid, but that was made more difficult than it should have been for me because Lorelai/Lauren Graham just lit up around Christopher/David Sutcliffe and seemed so glowing and happy and naturally understood in a way that she almost never did around Luke, especially once L/L got involved romantically.

 That's the thing, when actors have chemistry together, it really shows and that's what I think the major problem was. We weren't suppose to like Chris and in fact many of the story lines I wanted to punch him. However, Gram and Sutcliffe really clicked and it was true that Graham and Patterson couldn't get along outside the show. Then that's going to be a major problem. Its like pairing people who have no chemistry as a couple on a TV show. When it doesn't work or when writers can't write a main couple together they go: "Its the Moonlighting Curse." OH SHUT UP! If you can't write believable story lines with couples and feel you have to have "drama" or the actors don't really like each other but you "have to" write them together. Well, either sit down, shut up and write or pick a different career or switch shows. I hate when shows go: "Its the Moonlighting Curse." Even Bruce Willis and Sybil Shepard have said: "Would you stop using us as an excuse, it was other things and not our characters." 

Edited November 12, 2015 by readster

[Smad]

 That's the thing, when actors have chemistry together, it really shows and that's what I think the major problem was. We weren't suppose to like Chris and in fact many of the story lines I wanted to punch him. However, Gram and Sutcliffe really clicked and it was true that Graham and Patterson couldn't get along outside the show. Then that's going to be a major problem. Its like pairing people who have no chemistry as a couple on a TV show.

 

Ok first things first. I just don't buy the SP/LG don't get along at all crap anymore. People need to come up with some proof for that please. They looked more than fine to me at ATX and I didn't think anyone was faking it. Coupled with the fact that SP mentioned in the GG podcast that out of all the cast he has seen LG the most since the show ended, well something tells me those rumors are just that....rumors.

 

Considering that for me Lorelai and Luke had plenty chemistry before they got together there is no reason for that to change (because LG/SP not getting along applies there as well) once they actually put them together. The only way for that to completely change is by the actors being directed that way. I can't be the only one who saw the deliberate attempt of ASP to sabotage that couple from the get go. ASP went out of her way to avoid scenes where the actors could possibly show their chemistry. Throw in uneccessary drama, character assasinations, soap tropes, deliberate ooc miscommunication and all the other tricks she pulled it's no wonder L/L kinda failed as a couple. She didn't even give them a chance because it wasn't what she wanted. We all know how ASP gets when someone forces her to do something she doesn't want. She acts the petulant child that she is and acts out.

[Kohola3]

ASP went out of her way to avoid scenes where the actors could possibly show their chemistry.

 

There have been a lot of posts about lack of physical contact and "I love you's" but that was the mandate from ASP. I often wondered what kind of home life she had to refuse to allow that.  It made the relationship appear way more distant that we would have liked or believed in. I blame it on the stilted way she portrayed them as a couple.

 

And I, too, need some sort of proof of the off screen tiffs.  Unless they are Emmy worth actors, their on-screen sweet friendship in the first couple of seasons doesn't support an off-screen dislike for each other.