Social Media and Behind the Scenes: AKA Everything Else Not "News and Media"

[BkWurm1]

Found this interesting on MG Tumblr account

How do you stand the hate mails all of you get? How do you move past it and keep writing a magnificent show?

 

You just recognize that everyone’s entitled to their opinion.  Also, we don’t get as much hate mail as you might expect.  And the vast majority of the hate mail we do get is from people who are just angry that they’re not getting what the want immediately.  For example, last year, 95% — I’m guesstimating — of our hate mail was from people who were pissed off that we made Caity Lotz the Canary instead of making Katie Cassidy Black Canary.  But we always had the plan that you’re seeing unfold this year.  A lot of what looks like “hate” mail is really misguided “impatient” or “I don’t have faith in you” mail.

 

I don't know if it's that I find it hard to believe - that was my first reaction - but now I can't help thinking that it's not the Olicity fans that had to be pandered to . 

[Angel12d]

I don't know if it's that I find it hard to believe - that was my first reaction - but now I can't help thinking that it's not the Olicity fans that had to be pandered to . 

 

HAHA. WORD.

[catrox14]

Oh wow. That is really illuminating. So TPTB found a great actress to play the Black Canary with Caity Lotz. They were excited to have her, bragged about her and then flipped it all around because of hate mail? Or is that just his bullshit spin to ward off the hate mail for the stupidity of how they are dealing with Laurel becoming BC with no crucible at all.  That also tells me they are still valuing the comics version of BC more than what they've established in their own show.  

Edited February 15, 2015 by catrox14

[apinknightmare]

Oh wow. That is really illuminating. So TPTB found a great actress to play the Black Canary with Caity Lotz. They were excited to have her, bragged about her and then flipped it all around because of hate mail? Or is that just his bullshit spin to ward off the hate mail for the stupidity of how they are dealing with Laurel becoming BC with no crucible at all.  That also tells me they are still valuing the comics version of BC more than what they've established in their own show.  

 

He didn't say that they flipped their plan - he's saying they stuck to it. Which I totally believe, BTW. 

[catrox14]

Well that makes it even worse then. Because then they planned to fridge Sara to advance Laurel's journey? Wow. That's.....stupid.

[ohjoy]

Oh wow. That is really illuminating. So TPTB found a great actress to play the Black Canary with Caity Lotz. They were excited to have her, bragged about her and then flipped it all around because of hate mail? Or is that just his bullshit spin to ward off the hate mail for the stupidity of how they are dealing with Laurel becoming BC with no crucible at all.  That also tells me they are still valuing the comics version of BC more than what they've established in their own show.

Emphasis mine, because it also confirms to me that an O/L endgame is never going to be off the table as long as they existed in any comics ever.

[catrox14]

Emphasis mine, because it also confirms to me that an O/L endgame is never going to be off the table as long as they existed in any comics ever.

Yup. That is my worry as well.

[apinknightmare]

Emphasis mine, because it also confirms to me that an O/L endgame is never going to be off the table as long as they existed in any comics ever.

 

I don't know - if what he says is true, then they've always planned on Laurel being the Black Canary and never considered deviating from that plan. They have most definitely deviated from Laurel being Oliver's big one true love. Whether or not they can go back to that, I don't know. Maybe they'll try again at some point over the course of the series, but at this point I'm not worried about it.

[BkWurm1]

It's hard to fathom killing Sara was always their plan (I personally think they probably went back and forth) because of what they wrote for Laurel while they were introducing Sara and making her leaps and bounds more sympathetic and cohesive with the other characters while doubling down on separating Laurel from everything until Slade came to town.  If the plan from the get go was to use and lose Sara to build up Laurel, wouldn't it have made more sense to make her unlikable? 

 

Like on the island, she had chances not to show her loyalty.  Instead off being shown to be brave and scary she could have been two faced and manipulative.  Instead of this wonderful relationship with Sin, they should have shown that she was using her for some reason.  And we should have had Laurel be thrilled she was home and show poor deluded Laurel, still blind to her evil sister's faults.  Sara still could have gone back to the LoA but her reasons for leaving would have been different - they were too controlling- and in returning, she could have been offered a better deal or something.  Make her a hero that at the same time doesn't really care- let her be really only out there for the rush and satisfaction of taking down those that thought they were strong. 

 

We the audience wouldn't have cared when Sara died, but Laurel still would have and maybe if we saw Laurel getting played, we and the team would still be sympathetic to her, bonus points that we'd feel less sick that Thea killed her. 

Edited February 15, 2015 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

It's hard to fathom because of what they wrote for Laurel while they were introducing Sara and making her leaps and bounds more sympathetic and cohesive with the other characters while doubling down on separating Laurel from everything until Slade came to town.  If the plan from the get go was to use and lose Sara to build up Laurel, wouldn't it have made more sense to make her unlikable? 

 

But if they'd made Sara unlikable, then a) Laurel would have no reason to want to avenge her death and b) no motivation to "become" Sara. Of course there are ways around this (ways that would've made a better story and a better rise to being a "hero" for Laurel), but they've always been lazy when it came to Laurel, so. Since death seems to be the only motivator on this show, it makes sense that they made Sara sympathetic before they killed her off to further Laurel's story. 

[calliope1975]

This may have been their plan all along, and if so, it's a terrible plan. I'm sure S3 is rolling along as TIIC planned as well, and it's horrible and may cause me to quit the show. So...congratulations, I guess. 

 

If the plan was to make Sara a kick-ass Black Canary while continuing to write Laurel as unsympathetic and selfish, then to kill off Sara and shoehorn Laurel SWFing her, then job well done. It's not how I would write a show, but to each his own.

[BkWurm1]

This may have been their plan all along, and if so, it's a terrible plan. I'm sure S3 is rolling along as TIIC planned as well, and it's horrible and may cause me to quit the show. So...congratulations, I guess. 

.

The thing is, we know that the three producers didn't plot out the details of the this season until the end of last season, some of the end points sure, but they raved about spit balling the craziest of ideas and then saying, hey, let's actually do that so I have to think every plot point is up for grabs. 

[statsgirl]

I don't think they understood how unlikable and selfish they were making Laurel, and how much Sara would be taken to viewers' hearts.  They wanted to write a kickass character and they did it in Sara, not realizing the overall effect until ti was too late.  Sara and Felicity were beloved partly because of the character and the actors but also because they were the anti-Laurel.

 

They were probably always planning to get rid of Sara to make Laurel BC (I hate the "KC is so wonderful because she waited patiently) but they were hoist by their own petard in CL and the writing for Sara.  Literally and figuratively, because CL/Sara was a bomb (in a good way).

[BkWurm1]

(I hate the "KC is so wonderful because she waited patiently

 

But she didn't wait so patiently.  She seethed and pouted and vanished from all media for months and months.  If they were always planning on giving BC back to her, why wouldn't they have told their actress?

[statsgirl]

You're right, she didn't wait patiently.  She stopped doing Arrow pr when she wasn't getting the character or screen time she wanted.  But I was talking about the tweets from people like MG and James Bamford this season.

 

I'm sure they told KC she was getting to be the Black Canary and even with that she wasn't being a team player.  I'm beginning to think that they feel they need to appease her for some reason because they certainly don't do that for Caity Lotz, Manu Bennett or Susanna Thompson, all of whom are better actors.  MG said both KC and WH were getting good stuff this season because they've been so patient last season but only KC is really getting it.

[apinknightmare]

But she didn't wait so patiently. She seethed and pouted and vanished from all media for months and months. If they were always planning on giving BC back to her, why wouldn't they have told their actress?

Maybe to keep their options open in case they changed their mind? Or maybe they did tell her and she was impatient about having to wait. Or worried because people seemed to really like Sara. We'll never know how it came about.

[ban1o]

 

https://twitter.com/caitylotz/status/567087395083124736

[wonderwall]

Just comparing the masks, Caity's is SO MUCH COOLER. 

 

ALSO, I like to think Caity is smirking because she just kicked KCs stunt double's butt on set :') 

[apinknightmare]

Just comparing the masks, Caity's is SO MUCH COOLER. 

 

ALSO, I like to think Caity is smirking because she just kicked KCs stunt double's butt on set :') 

 

Katie's would look better if the eye area was blacked out. 

[DrSpaceman10]

Katie's would look better if the eye area was blacked out. 

 

Yeah, I don't get this. Why is she the only one who doesn't have greasepaint under her mask? 

[wonderwall]

Katie's would look better if the eye area was blacked out. 

I think the angles in Caity's makes her mask look more intense and badass whereas Katie's is softer and not as badass. And I agree, if the whole eye area was blacked out it definitely would've looked better because then I wouldn't have to see the spidery eyelashes (it still bothers me like hell)

 

LOL Isn't that a great metaphor. Sara had it tougher in life, it was more intense, whereas Laurel had it easier in life and was more sheltered thus she's a bit softer. 

Edited February 15, 2015 by wonderwall

[Angel12d]

Yeah, why are KC's eyes not blacked out? I've just realized that's why it looks odd and I couldn't figure it out until now!

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I don't get this. Why is she the only one who doesn't have greasepaint under her mask? 

 

IIRC it's because she wanted to be different and look "softer." Or something.

[KirkB]

CL's mask is a little smaller and sharper, which coupled with the black underlining makes it look more intimidating. But you're all right, until I saw this side by side I didn't realize what it was about KC's mask that didn't look right.

[apinknightmare]

I think the angles in Caity's makes her mask look more intense and badass whereas Katie's is softer and not as badass. 

 

Yeah, Caity's has interesting angles, but IMO the differences wouldn't be so stark if Katie had some greasepaint on.

[catrox14]

But then we couldn't see Katie's long spidery eyelashes.  I'm not even kidding. If the mask were closer around her eyes like Caity's you wouldn't see it because they would blend with the mask/greasepaint.

 

She looks like a clown here IMO

Edited February 15, 2015 by catrox14

[BkWurm1]

Blacking out the eyes really makes it harder to recognize a person, obscures the shape of the features.

[catrox14]

Blacking out the eyes really makes it harder to recognize a person, obscures the shape of the features.

 

Are you suggesting.....she would be less identifiable? That's madness!

[apinknightmare]

I wonder if the head-to-neck black plus the mask with eyeblack was just way too much black?

[pootlus]

Wait...Caity's wearing a mask?

I mean, I'm a straight chick and...damn.

[calliope1975]

The angles on Caity's mask also remind me of Batman's cowl. It's more menacing. Why would you want a soft look when you're out fighting crime and attempting to intimidate criminals? 

[statsgirl]

For the same reason  you'd want your gloves to be fingerless.  It's how KC wants it.

 

Every time I look at how they're handling Laurel/KC, I'm reminded of the line from Sabrina: "Do I look stupid?  I never thought I was but maybe I'm wrong."

Edited February 15, 2015 by statsgirl

[kismet]

The shaping of the mask is just unflattering to kc's face. Perhaps the grease paint would help. But I really think its overall shaping. I think the plan was to always get rid of Sara to make way for ll/bc. But I don't think that they ever planned it out to do her death the way they did. I think they went for over the top crazy lets do this & instead got not the best end result. Also think they should have spent more time showing sisterly bonding if saras death was supposed to be her great motivator. Or even hinted at it would have been better. Again, its not saras death that bothers me as much as how they handled it. Same with some of script in 313. They need someone outside of their writers room to weigh in on the tone of the story/script. Any creative project needs a fresh pair of eyes or someone not in the middle of it to edit/review it. I think they've sequestered themselves in the room, that they really have no idea how some of their ideas will be accepted by audience.

[olicityfan25]

Why would they award an actress who "waited patiently?" Shouldn't they award someone for doing great work? They wanted to award an actress who is seen by most fans of the show to be the worst and unlikeable.

 

So stupid. I just can't with the boner they have for a subpar actress.

[jay741982]

Why would they award an actress who "waited patiently?" Shouldn't they award someone for doing great work? They wanted to award an actress who is seen by most fans of the show to be the worst and unlikeable.

 

So stupid. I just can't with the boner they have for a subpar actress.

Yeah it's mind boggling they rewarded Talent by making EBR MB and JB regulars even though MB was only a season but subpar talent like KC gets characters killed for her character

[Shanna]

Yeah it's mind boggling they rewarded Talent by making EBR MB and JB regulars even though MB was only a season but subpar talent like KC gets characters killed for her character

They're apparently rewarded ebr and Diggle by making them stupid to prop other characters. Oliver too for that matter although he was always occasionally stupid this malcolm thing is just mindblowingly so.

[tv echo]

I think MG saying that they always had the plan to kill off Sara and make Laurel the BC is partly spinning.  I think they did originally have that plan in Season 1, then considered keeping Sara as the BC in Season 2 but changed their minds due to the tons of hate mail (and maybe contractual considerations), and are now just saying 'well, that was their plan all along.'

 

Other non-spoilery stuff from MG...

splitsunshine asked:
Did you guys ever expect for so many people to not like Ray? I think you guys were going for a Barry type of reaction, but somehow missed the mark. Barry's quirky is the adorable/cute type but Ray's quirky looks more crazy than anything. A lot of people think of him as a creep/stalker and to be honest I was surprised at first by how much people don't like Ray. I'm indifferent towards him, he's kind of just there for me and I don't really care about his storyline at this point, but i'm curious.

I respect your opinion, but there are plenty of people who like Ray.

katyswartz asked:
hi marc! :) so this is a totally non-spoilery question, i promise. when felicity lay in the ashes after the restaurant exploded and was lying there unconsious i think that that scene looked an awful lot like when tommy lay in the burning CNRI building in the ashes and under crumpled walls etc. Did you make that parellel conciously or was that not planned / a coincidence? and did oliver "notice" that parellel too, if it was a planned decision? :)

We definitely were aware of the parallel.  I can’t say it was completely intentional, however.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited February 16, 2015 by tv echo

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

The amazing part is how often he says things weren't "intentional." As a writer everything they do should be intentional. They are telling a story. You need to map it all out.

It tells me they have a limited bag of tricks to pull from. Their creative juices must be mostly water.

[tv echo]

You know what concerns me?  Let's say it's true that the EPs and The CW were indeed swayed by the alleged ton of hate mail that they got last year for making Sara and not Laurel the BC in Season 2.  Then it's possible that those same fans are now sending tons of hate mail this season about making Oliver's love interest Felicity and not Laurel.  That doesn't bode well for Season 4.

Edited February 16, 2015 by tv echo

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I had the same thought. I keep seeing arguments TIIC are willing to adapt and aren't sticking to the comics. I believe they want to and fall into the excuses of "lots of hate mail" to justify their positions. The overwhelming online community support was for Sara as BC and Olicity as a couple. Are the comic book purists old school and only use snail mail?

[Danny Franks]

So instead of answering that guy's question about Ray, he just makes a blanket statement that is utterly meaningless. Good going, Guggenheim. The question wasn't asking for your respect, it was asking whether you're surprised that your new pet character has been rejected by many people in the audience.

[Password]

Well Ray is sweet and charming accorindg to AK and hasn't done anything wrong to MG. I doubt he's read anything negative at alllllllllll.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Limbo

[tv echo]

Brief clip of JB at Gallifrey One Convention this past weekend in Los Angeles...

 

 

John Barrowman MBE @Team_Barrowman  ·  16h 16 hours ago
the video I talked about in the Panel at @gallifreyone #gally thanks Sensei Bobby for filming @_heroesforhire dont t… http://www.whosay.com/l/Jxmaanf

https://twitter.com/team_barrowman

Edited February 16, 2015 by tv echo

[jay741982]

You know what concerns me?  Let's say it's true that the EPs and The CW were indeed swayed by the alleged ton of hate mail that they got last year for making Sara and not Laurel the BC in Season 2.  Then it's possible that those same fans are now sending tons of hate mail this season about making Oliver's love interest Felicity and not Laurel.  That doesn't bode well for Season 4.

Well he said he isn't pandering to any fan base plus I'm plenty sure he's had plenty of Laurel Hate sent his way and hatred for constant Olicity angst. I still am boogled how people want Oliver and a Laurel together with their horrible history which Oliver doesn't have with Felicity plus the way hotter chemistry

[Chaser]

I don't buy that 95% of hate mail was people wanting Laurel to be Black Canary. If that was the case then wouldn't the Eps think Laurel was so popular with all these letters attacking Sara and defending Laurel? Instead they acknowledge the difficulty of writing Laurel and her unpopularity. I'm sure they got some, but I'm thinking his guestimation is way off. And it sounds a lot like spin.

If you are worrief about hatemail influencing the show, you know what he has mentioned recieivng hate on? The lack of original Team Arrow.

[KirkB]

I don't buy that 95% of mail is ever about anything. I don't know there has ever been a storyline or character on any show that was so universally disliked all but 5% of it was negative.

[Password]

I think Sara was always meant to die, but somewhere along the way the EPs got distracted by their shiny new toy. Then quickly realised that Dinah Laurel Lance WAS on the show so they killed Sara.

I honestly do not buy 95% at all. That is some bull.

[apinknightmare]

I don't buy that 95% of mail is ever about anything. I don't know there has ever been a storyline or character on any show that was so universally disliked all but 5% of it was negative.

 

It's that hyperbole MG has admitted to being prone to, slapping us all in the face like a fish on a pier. 

[Sakura12]

When was that 95% sent? Before anyone actually saw Sara as the BC? Because now I think the mail should be "Bring back Sara as the BC". 

[Sunshine]

I think Sara was always meant to die, but somewhere along the way the EPs got distracted by their shiny new toy. Then quickly realised that Dinah Laurel Lance WAS on the show so they killed Sara.

I honestly do not buy 95% at all. That is some bull.

I agree that Sara was always meant to die.  The EPs never retracted their statement that Sara Canary was the beginning of the Black Canary story.  When she didn't die in the S2 finale I thought they were just letting her leave the show by rejoining the LOA never to really be seen again. I was surprised when they brought her back for 3.01. 

 

The EPs do get distracted by their shiny new toys.  I think Brandon Routh auditioning for the Ray Palmer role changed their focus there too.   I believe the original spin off idea was supposed to be the Suicide Squad which was squashed because of the movie.  I don't think they ever thought about ATOM until the casting happened. I wonder if 3.19 will be their back door pilot since what little we know seems to relate to him and why he's a hero.