Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers: Lalalalala! I can't hear you!

[Curio]

I seriously doubt we would get a true love kiss between Hook and Emma this season. I'm pretty sure they are saving it for the last season.

If they wait until the last season, I'd rather they just not do it at all. I'm on the fence with those two; on the one hand, I could see a True Love's Kiss happening at the end of 4B because we were completely ripped off in the 4A finale with their relationship/emotional payoff. On the other hand, I'd be totally okay with them never having a True Love's Kiss and just choosing to be together because they want to be together.

 

But if there is a sleeping curse introduced in 4B (which I think could be likely because of Maleficent's presence), I feel like they're the couple that deserves the storyline the most. Which of course means that plot will go to Regina and Robin.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't think Emma's reaction would be that extreme if Hook tells her he loves her (which I don't see happening to be honest).  She knows exactly how he feels about her.  It's not like it will be this huge revelation or anything like that.  He kissed her in NYC Serenade and told her he hoped she felt as he did or that maybe there's another man she loved in the life she lost, and that's just one show...she has to know that something like this might be coming and she is in an actual relationship with the guy, I think from experience and being in a relationship, those words will be expected at some point.  Honestly though, I think they both know how the other one feels and that's what it is.  Love also comes through in actions and as they say, actions do speak louder than words.

 

Regarding what happens in 4B, I also think that the sleeping curse will come into play but gosh, I really don't want Regina to be the one put under it just because of her typical bullshit where she'll move on to the next shining toy where maybe she will want a biological baby and season 5 will be Regina: the struggles of pregnancy or Regina and hormone injections where we'll have to see all her trials and tribulations.  I already can't deal very well with OQ and the contrivance that they are.

 

So I have a quick question regarding the time portal since the thread of last year's season finale is well and alive.  Could Emma re-open the time portal with the balck fairy wand or was that a one time thing?

[Curio]

I don't think Emma's reaction would be that extreme if Hook tells her he loves her (which I don't see happening to be honest).  She knows exactly how he feels about her.  It's not like it will be this huge revelation or anything like that.

 

Responding in the Relationships thread.

 

So I have a quick question regarding the time portal since the thread of last year's season finale is well and alive. Could Emma re-open the time portal with the balck fairy wand or was that a one time thing?

We'll probably never know the answer to this because the magic rules on this show don't exist. Based on the magic we've seen used in the past... it could go either way.

[Souris]

If there is a sleeping curse, it will definitely be Regina or Robin that goes under it. 4B is 100% obviously All About Regina, so there's no way they'd give that to any other character. Of course, there might not even be a sleeping curse, despite the obvious possibility. I mean, nobody in the core cast got frozen in the Frozen arc.

 

When it comes to this show, the developments are always somewhere along the "worst-case scenario" continuum.

[Curio]

If there is a sleeping curse, it will definitely be Regina or Robin that goes under it.

 

I would actually be okay if it went to those two... but only if Robin was the one who goes under and Regina can't wake him up because the fairy dust was wrong and they aren't actually True Loves.

[YaddaYadda]

But what is true love?  This is what I'm personally struggling with.  

[Guest]

I was looking back at the how Maleficent was portrayed in season one and its got me worried and wondering.

 

First the wondering, it seems like on the sliding scale of villains that Maleficent has more redeeming qualities than Rumpel and Regina.  I base this solely on her throwing herself in front of donkey unicorn when Regina threw axes and stuff at it to get the Dark Curse back and Maleficent thinking that the Dark Curse was too terrible to use. 

 

Then the worrying, I think David shoving the true love potion into Maleficent to fulfill the deal with Rumpel sets them up to be able to go down the path questioning how good the heroes really are in order to excuse villainous behavior.

[Camera One]

Then the worrying, I think David shoving the true love potion into Maleficent to fulfill the deal with Rumpel sets them up to be able to go down the path questioning how good the heroes really are in order to excuse villainous behavior.

 

I suspect that's exactly what they will be going for.  David and Snow are no better than Regina, Rumple, or any of the other villains.  That has been their MO for a long time.  From Henry in S2 going "I thought you were the heroes" shaming Snow for killing Cora, to Emma saying in "Bleeding Through", "I thought we were the good guys" as Snow confronted the evil of her sainted mother, to the writers in 4A using their extra hour to have Snow blatantly say "I am not all good", "I was such a selfish and shallow child", "I slept with married men", etc.  

Edited February 4, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

"I thought we were the good guys" as Snow confronted the evil of her sainted mother

 

I hated that episode so much.  Never mind that Cora wanted Snow to see what she wanted her to see.  Ava did not force Cora to do anything.  Revisionist history right into the same episode.

[KingOfHearts]

About Anastasia from the Spoilers thread. Nothing spoilery:
 

 

I think they killed off her since I saw the face of Will when Robin asked him about her.

It does seem that way. If he were just on some mission, then petty thievery, drinking and chilling with the Merry Man doesn't seem like logical behavior. (Though, what is on this show?) We saw him drunk on the floor with a Wonderland book, plus a picture of the Red Queen. When he's asked about her, he says nothing and keeps it vague.

 

What I'm assuming is either she's dead, she's missing, or she's in a place Will has no hope of getting to. But knowing Wonderland and it's many portals, those kinds of places are few and far between. I doubt it's a break-up since they are a confirmed True Love couple. It could be that he just presumes her dead. My reason for believing she maybe alive is because of the epilogue at the end of Wonderland implying they had been ruling it for a long time. This epilogue was at least seven years later, according to Alice's daughter's age. That's of course assuming time in Wonderland is consistent with everyone else's.

 

Will's actions in Storybrooke and the total reversion of his character development in the other show seem to come out as grieving to me. He's lost his wife, so he's drinking and going back to the way he was as a way of forgetting about her. But he's still struggling with letting her go, hence the book in the library. That's just my thoughts.

Edited February 28, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I'll reply/speculate in the Will thread, so I can mention the Wonderland stuff.

[scarynikki12]

I do think that Emma having the most potential for darkness could be interesting but I fully expect this to be yet another way of leveling the playing field between the heroes and villains.  Emma will give into that potential at some point, probably even under the influence of a spell, wreck havoc and possibly kill some people, and it will be treated as worse than anything any of the actual villains have ever done.  Then everyone, once Emma's come back to herself and is feeling massive guilt, will all agree that this absolves Regina and Rumpel of the evil they've done over the years/centuries as even the heroes can do bad things.  Bonus points if the Author confirms that none of the characters on the show have exhibited Free Will at any point.  Then the villains won't be responsible for anything. 

 

What I would like to see is a character on the show, once everyone has voiced the "we must find the Author as he's been dictating every move we make!" thing, ask if this means that Snow and Charming don't really love each other, if Rumpel and Belle don't really love each other, if Emma and Neal didn't really love each other, if Emma and Hook don't really love each other and (the big one) if Regina and Robin don't really love each other?  After all, if the Author is the one making all these decisions, wouldn't that negate the love these characters feel for each other right along with the crimes of the villains?

[Souris]

Hush, scarynikki12, they can't have such logical questions being asked. Quick, look over there, it's another Disney villain to distract you! ;)

Edited March 2, 2015 by Souris

[KingOfHearts]

So, the Sorcerer... he seems to have a problem with people going dark. His hat protection spell was for people who had "succumbed to the darkness", then the Chernobog went for the person with the most darkness in their heart. I'm assuming he's the creator of the Dark Curse since the Chernobog was from Fantasia and the fact it went into the hat at some point.

 

What I don't understand is how the Sorcerer could not be the Author. If the storybook shows the heroes always win and villains always lose, doesn't that imply that the Author is prejudice toward people who are "dark" as the Sorcerer obviously is? Why were the empty storybooks in the Sorcerer's house?

Edited March 2, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Someone in the episode thread suggested that Snow and Charming's secret has to do with Emma having the greatest potential for darkness. I wonder if Snow and Charming went to Maleficent, Ursula and Cruella, so that Emma would be born with Magic, so she would have a greater chance to defeat Regina and break the Curse.  And part of that meant Emma would also have the potential to do bad, as well as good.  This would fit in with Maleficent bestowing gifts to babies.

[tennisgurl]

 

After all, if the Author is the one making all these decisions, wouldn't that negate the love these characters feel for each other right along with the crimes of the villains?

That`s what is really bugging me about this whole Author thing. Does the Author just dictate what happens in the characters lives, or did he actually create them, create their back stories, their personalities, and their feelings? If this is all just a story, and these are all fictional characters, in universe, does that mean that nothing, ever has meant anything, because they lack free will? And who`s stories are the Author writing? Just the Enchanted Forest denizens? So who wrote Peter Pan, and all those characters? Or Frankenstein? Or freaking Frozen? We KNOW who wrote those stories! Or are these just the OUAT versions? Is this one Author creating ALL stories?

 

These are pretty big questions, and the show is...pretty much ignoring all of it. I mean, if you say the Author was in charge of everything that has happened, then no one is responsible for their own actions, the characters aren't REALLY in love, or don't feel real bonds with anyone, because the Author just wrote those in for the characters, and nothing anyone has done has meant anything.  

Edited March 2, 2015 by tennisgurl

[retrograde]

$10 the trio all end up turning on Rumple and fighting alongside the good guys by the end of the season.

[Camera One]

I wouldn't mind that too much, actually.  However, it would break the pattern of disposing the villain at the end of the arc.

 

Before that, though, no doubt we will see Snow and Charming's secret coming out, which becomes the driving factor pushing Emma to the evil camp.  Smash the Mirror Redux?

Edited March 2, 2015 by Camera One

[retrograde]

Maybe they'll go back to the EF. We're overdue for some world-jumping by the main cast, so I wouldn't be surprised if there is some portal action in the final episode. 

[KAOS Agent]

As stupid as the author storyline is, it gets murkier to me when they are in the Land without Magic. Is Emma's childhood story here written? Because I sure as hell hope they aren't trying to tell me that someone could be writing my story such that I have no free will either. 

[YaddaYadda]

$10 the trio all end up turning on Rumple and fighting alongside the good guys by the end of the season.

I don't know about Maleficent but I'm not sure this is remotely far fetched.  Cruella especially doesn't seem to be buying into this whole author thing.  I really loved her line at the Drive-Thru (I still snicker everytime I think about it).

 

Rumple: Our Collective frustrations?  They’re because of his will, not our missteps.  (Really, Rumple?  You killing your wife was not because of your "misstep?)

Cruella: I suppose it’s better than blaming bad judgement and gin.

 

I mean yeah, who doesn't wanna blame everything wrong in their lives on someone else (I'm looking at you, Regina).  She seems more grounded.  She was content before she was summoned by the Dark One to Maleficent's castle.  Wow!  A villain who is content with her life?  How about that?

[Serena]

Here's my question: didn't the book appear in Storybrooke? We have never heard anyone in the EF mentioning a book of any kind. The curse seems to have created the book, since it wasn't there before. And the book stops at the curse casting. How is it still dictating stuff if it stops at like 30 years ago?

[Mari]

And the book stops at the curse casting. How is it still dictating stuff if it stops at like 30 years ago?

Because reasons!  Look--Ursula has tentacles and a green crown thing!  And isn't Cruella's car awesome?  And Emma's totally going to go dark, isn't that crazy? 

Edited March 2, 2015 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

Well, Serena, I think the only answer to your riddle is that this show defies ALL logic.  The book is a collection of stories, but now it's about how these people may not have had a choice because well, they were "controlled".

 

Okay, so if that's the case, then who cares what Snowing did in the EF since they too must have been "controlled".  Whatever they did was not a misstep, it was the Author's will.  

[Eegah]

My guess is only one of them is going to turn good. Maleficent's out since I'm thinking it'll happen Discord style, with whoever it is pretending to be good until they realize it's actually a lot more fulfilling than being evil. And my money's on Ursula, given that she has by far the more sympathetic backstory (even Team Starkid couldn't come up with a way to make skinning a bunch of puppies look good in Twisted!).

[KingOfHearts]

We may all be assuming too quickly that the book controls fate. The only people who believe it at this point are the villains, Regina and Henry... and we all know how reliable they can be. I don't think we've seen Emma going as far as to think that. She just thinks finding the Author will give Regina a happy ending somehow.

We don't exactly know to what extent this book actually controls their lives, either... or if it's really controlling them in the first place. We're going by what characters are speculating. I'm waiting to see what happens here.

[retrograde]

I read a theory on tumblr that Snowing deliberately cursed Emma to a life of misery to make sure she would make it to Storybrooke. I don't know I buy that specifically but I can see it being something that impacted her shitty childhood. After all, I assume the reason her heart has the most potential for darkness is that she had such a miserable life -- far more so than many of the villains. If Snowing played a role in that... yeah she's gonna be pissed.

[YaddaYadda]

I read a theory on tumblr that Snowing deliberately cursed Emma to a life of misery to make sure she would make it to Storybrooke. I don't know I buy that specifically but I can see it being something that impacted her shitty childhood. After all, I assume the reason her heart has the most potential for darkness is that she had such a miserable life -- far more so than many of the villains. If Snowing played a role in that... yeah she's gonna be pissed.

 

If that's what it is and whatever it ends up being, I think it comes down to whatever Snowing paid as a price.  I think the price is what has to do with Emma.  

 

The timeline, it seems that it might before they took the kingdom back from the snippets we've seen, which would be predate them having found out anything about what Rumple was doing.  

 

Ok, someone who has a good memory, when David went to Maleficent's castle to place that egg in the dragon, had they won their war against King George yet or not?  

[Dani-Ellie]

If I remember right, no. It was after the adventure with the egg that Rumple enchants the ring to find Snow in the glass coffin. So, Charming still hadn't woken Snow with True Love's Kiss yet.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Serena]

I read a theory on tumblr that Snowing deliberately cursed Emma to a life of misery to make sure she would make it to Storybrooke. I don't know I buy that specifically but I can see it being something that impacted her shitty childhood. After all, I assume the reason her heart has the most potential for darkness is that she had such a miserable life -- far more so than many of the villains. If Snowing played a role in that... yeah she's gonna be pissed.

My God, that's horrible. I hope not deliberately. Maybe they were like "yes, we'll pay whatever price to get *insert thing here*" and then it turns out the price is Emma's unhappiness?

[YaddaYadda]

If I remember right, no. It was after the adventure with the egg that Rumple enchants the ring to find Snow in the glass coffin. So, Charming still hadn't woken Snow with True Love's Kiss yet.

Oh, right!  So that was right before the first scene of the pilot, Charming riding his horse to find Snow White and the whole TLK.

 

I'll stand by my original theory that when they made the deal with the evil trio, Snow thought she was barren because of what King George did to her.  

 

They make the deal, she drinks the water from the lake which fixes her problem, they take the kingdom back, there's the wedding where Regina shows up, Snow gets pregnant or she was pregnant prior to that, they find out they'll be from their child.  Twenty-eight years later, they don't think about the consequences of their actions since Ursula and Cruella are not in Storybrooke and Maleficent is presumably dead.  

 

They think they're in the clear until Ursula and Cruella pop up again and the reason they're going after Maleficent's ashes or whatever is because she is needed for whatever it was that was promised (to the evil trio)...Ursula and Cruella can't do anything without Maleficent, that's why Snow threatens them to keep their mouths shut about whatever it is that went down.

 

I like how the show can't keep track with their own timelines.  We are now reduced to "A long time ago", "A very long time ago", "sometime ago".

[KingOfHearts]

In the promo (I think the Canadian one) Snow says something like, "She said she would make us pay for what we did", so it might be more about retribution than collecting on a deal.

[Chaos Theory]

I am putting this in the speculation thread. My guess for the season is that this season is going to be in large part about what stops people from choosing evil or losing themselves in their own darkness.

[Mari]

I can't do a re-watch right now, but was it the sorcerer or the author that blue said hadn't been seen for a very long time? Because Blue herself is at least as old Rumple and Hook are, and we know that Ursula is at least 1000 years old. This should mean that which ever one hasn't been seen for a very long time should be something other than just a regular person--even a magical person.

Could he or she be the Black fairy?

Edited March 2, 2015 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

Maybe

Lily

is the Black Fairy.  I don't think that name is spoiled yet, so just in case.

 

At this point, I'm just gonna throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

Edited March 2, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[retrograde]

I can't do a re-watch right now, but was it the sorcerer or the author that blue said hadn't been seen for a very long time? Because Blue herself is at least as old Rumple and Hook are, and we know that Ursula is at least 1000 years old. This should mean that which ever one hasn't been seen for a very long time should be something other than just a regular person--even a magical person.

It was the author who hadn't been seen in a long time.

[Mari]

It was the author who hadn't been seen in a long time.

Thanks!

 

At this point, I'm just gonna throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

That works for me.  I'm just gonna throw some more stuff up, and see if any of it is stickier than usual.  :)

 

Looking at the scene with Regina, Blue, and Emma about the Author and the Sorcerer:

 

Blue:  "Where did you get this?" 

Emma explains.

Blue:  "The Sorcerer's here?"  (she seemed afraid)

Henry explains.

Blue:  "You're looking for him?"  (incredulously)

Regina explains she was hoping for a happy ending.

Blue:  shocked twitch and breath

 more conversation about the sorcerer's house, the books, and their goal, and then

Blue:  I do not know.  But I do know they are two (emphasized) very different people.

 

 

What I found interesting was a couple of things--Blue does say that hoping to be written a happy ending isn't crazy, but never actually says that that's something the Author controls.  The way it was said gives the impression that's the way it is, but it's never actually stated, and there is some definite wiggle room there.  Especially when you add in how long it's been since someone's seen him/her--Blue says she's never actually seen him (her), no one has, not for a very long time. 

 

As for the reaction to the Sorcerer?  Looking back, it definitely seemed like Blue was afraid of the Sorcerer.  Now, I don't know if that means the Sorcerer is a dangerous, evil person, or if Blue is actually extra shady and the Socerer would expose her, or if I'm reading too much into an actress trying to spice up her scene.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

I'll add one to your list, Mari.

 

Blue mentioned clues that the Author left in his works.  So there's more than one book that have already been written.

[Camera One]

I added the extra notes from the script.

 

Blue:  "Where did you get this?" (add ambiguity, a twinge of curiosity, but a sense of knowing, plus a dash of indigestion)
Emma explains.
Blue:  "The Sorcerer's here?"  (add more ambiguity, mix in joy, fear, exhilaration, accusation, guilt, with a I-would-kill-you-if-I-could vibe)
Henry explains.
Blue:  "You're looking for him?"  (extra ambiguity... a dash of excitement, shock, disbelief, anger and throw in some I-wish-I-could-love-someone)

 

----------

 

On my first watch, I thought Blue seemed a tad pleased that the Sorcerer might be here, as if he was an old friend.  I didn't catch the fear, except for the fear that Regina found his home and the empty book.  I'll have to rewatch.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Camera One

[The Cake is a Pie]

I caught fear and disbelief in that scene. After all, if the Sorcerer is so powerful, surely a mere curse wouldn't bring him over unwillingly? He has to be there by choice.

[Shanna Marie]

Considering that there was a portal in the mansion, the Sorcerer can probably commute. He might have just had a home created in the second curse to give himself a home base in our world. He can pop back and forth whenever he likes, and he might even have been around to make the door to Arendelle. It is interesting that they needed a door to Arendelle, and that's what they got. Elsa and company didn't even have to go to the Enchanted Forest and then travel home. If he can summon a door, then he doesn't have to live in Storybrooke full time.

 

Though he probably shouldn't have kept that hat just lying around. Maybe he was setting Rumple up somehow. That spell might not have had quite the result Rumple was looking for, even if he had managed to complete it.

[The Cake is a Pie]

I have this idea in my head that the Sorcerer is a bit of a puppetmaster and sets things up just to see what his little dolls will do. I've always thought that Rumple "finding" the hat box in the house was way too easy and was obviously a setup.*

*Obviously, not in context of This Show, but obvious to anyone else who thinks logically and is suspicious as to why the object Rumple has been pursuing suddenly is just sitting openly in a house that convenitently showed up out of nowhere just for Rumple to find.

Edited March 7, 2015 by The Cake is a Pie

[Camera One]

That's what I thought as well, and I had been hoping it was a trap set by the Sorcerer with Blue.  If the Sorcerer had a brain, Rumple would have been sucked in himself when he tried to open it.  

 

I don't know if this is what it's referring to, but looking at the next episode title "Unforgiven" without watching previews, it could be about Snow and Charming being unforgiven by the Queens of Darkness, unforgiven by Regina for ruining her life, unforgiven by themselves weighed down by guilt, and very soon unforgiven by Emma for their unforgivable act.  Shame shame shame.  See, heroes aren't all good and villains aren't all bad.  Snow and Charming holding those umbrellas were an allusion to the evil Penguin from Batman.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

The Sorcerer's plan sucked in that case. Rumple tried to have Emma sucked into his hat before he turned around and targetted the fairies, then tried to murder a man because his heart was special. I am guessing that everyone trapped in the hat would have died as well.

Good plan, Sorcerer. Commit mass murder in order to get rid of one person. This is Catherine of Medeci level of crazy.

[Camera One]

The Sorcerer's plan sucked in that case.

 

For it to work, he would have planted a fake Hat at the mansion.  Gold would be tempted and try to open it, and he would have hatted himself with the Fake Hat.

 

I can't see how he planned what we actually saw, because as you said, he would have to be even stupider than he will probably turn out to be.

[KingOfHearts]

 

For it to work, he would have planted a fake Hat at the mansion.

He should have put a fake hat in EF. The fact a hat with unspeakable terrors' only defense was an old man making biscuits and an enchantment that could be broken with a tear from Heidi of the hills is just plain dumb. Why would you keep something like that under a cottage in the woods, anyway? The Dark Curse had a better security system, but I guess it was more dangerous than what's ever in the hat?

[YaddaYadda]

They will never explain why the Sorcerer crafted the hat in the first place.  It's the stupidest thing ever.  Seriously, the hat is like creating the atomic bomb, you know it's bad and the result will be awful and disastrous, but you do it anyway.  I like that the hat doesn't give a fuck who is good and who is bad so long as it sucks magic in.

[Camera One]

I guess they could say the Sorcerer made the Hat, so he or she could capture wicked magical creatures?  Except he could have made a dozen urns instead.  From what we've seen the hat was only any use to the Dark One, the only thing that would allow him to cleave himself from the dagger or whatever mumbo jumbo they made up that day everyone in the Writers Room went home early.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Camera One

[Mari]

I know that the writers most likely went "hey, we need . . ." and didn't actually plan out something that made sense.  That's their pattern.  But, is if this one's the exception to the rule--maybe the hat stores magic, and after I reaches a certain point, it can be used to do something that would usually be impossible, even with magic.

 

So, while Rumple wanted to dedagger his life, Zelena may have been able to use it to do her time-travel thing, provided she had items symbolic of that goal, or Rumple could've used it to jump to the world where Bae was, provided he was able to locate items that were tied to our world (or Neverland, or wherever the heck Nealfire was when Rumple found the hat) . . .

[Arkay]

Posting to the speculation thread. Just watched the episode with Maleficent having lost a child due to some EF action of the Charmings, and on the episode thread people are wondering what the Charmings could have done to kill her child. It seems to me that Mal's baby might not be dead, but just lost to her. Then they focused so much on Hook walking merrily with Emma while Snow was monologuing about how they caused Maleficent to lose her child that I think her "baby" is Hook. Anyone else? Particularly since the conversation was about protecting Emma from finding out that the Charmings have lied to Emma, and that she has the capacity for evil. Plus that Maleficent, in a dream sequence, stole Snow's son from her arms. It just seems like Emma+Hook would be a good comeuppance for the Charmings if that's Maleficent's goal.