Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers: Lalalalala! I can't hear you!

[Souris]

I think we're going to end up having a Buffy/Angel situation here with Hook and Emma. (For those who didn't watch Buffy, she had to stab her love Angel with a sword to save the world.)

 

BRUTAL ANGST!

[YaddaYadda]

So, that hologram voice mail Merlin left about finding Nimue, and then cutting off because the Dark One found him, and those heavy footsteps in the background that sounded like a man's footsteps?

 

Dark One Hook found Merlin? And he's the one who did something real bad to him?

[InsertWordHere]

I think Hook went really dark in Camelot and that's why Emma cast the curse.

[YaddaYadda]

I think Hook went really dark in Camelot and that's why Emma cast the curse.

 

Given how he's behaving in the promo for 5x10, it certainly seems like it.

 

Still doesn't explain why Merlin want anyone to find Nimue, especially the way she went after him, and Emma.

[Mari]

What do you suppose the chances are that we're going to actually deal with the fact that Hook became something he spent a very long time trying to kill? There are so many things for them to focus on -- what do you think aw will get, and what do you think they will gloss over, or not even realize is an issue? (TS, TW)

Edited November 16, 2015 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

I don't think we'll get anything too deep to be honest. There's 2 episodes left before they wrap up this arc. Emma and Hook will fight, and makeup at the 11th hour.

[Rumsy4]

So, that hologram voice mail Merlin left about finding Nimue, and then cutting off because the Dark One found him, and those heavy footsteps in the background that sounded like a man's footsteps?

 

Dark One Hook found Merlin? And he's the one who did something real bad to him?

 

Oh my god!! Poor Hook. :-( And Merlin. I think that Merlin voicemail got edited by the Dark One/Two. 

[InsertWordHere]

I'm hoping when Hook says "I want to hurt you like you hurt me" it's less a threat and more of a "feeling the darkness" type thing. Wishful thinking, maybe? Because I do think he's playing Zelena.

 

When Emma said "you'd do everything in your power to stop me," it probably means he did try to stop her in Camelot because he doesn't want to get rid of the darkness. If so, I am really worried for his character. More so in Camelot than in Storybrooke.

[YaddaYadda]

When Emma said "you'd do everything in your power to stop me," it probably means he did try to stop her in Camelot because he doesn't want to get rid of the darkness. If so, I am really worried for his character. More so in Camelot than in Storybrooke.

Well, to be fair, Emma's plan was to put the darkness in Zelena to free them both of it, and then kill her, to which he objected.

 

He didn't want her to do that. He said it would be cold-blooded murder, and he went as far as to release Zelena from her cuff even though he didn't trust her.

 

I like how Emma is the only one that remembers what happened to Marian.

Edited November 16, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Rumsy4]

OMG!! What if Dark Hook cast the Dark Curse in Camelot because he wanted to get back to Storybrooke and kill his nemesis, Rumple?? :-/  If Emma could channel Nimue, probably so can Hook. So, he channels Nimue and casts the DC using Merlin's heart. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by Rumsy4

[InsertWordHere]

 

Well, to be fair, Emma's plan was to put the darkness in Zelena to free them both of it, and then kill her, to which he objected.

Yes, but I mean if he embraced the darkness in Camelot and she tried to do this there, he was probably against her and that's why she cast the curse and erased his memory. Because he was right, he couldn't handle the darkness and Emma realized she made a mistake tethering him because she can handle the darkness (mostly). So she tried to undo it all in Storybrooke.

 

Hook's actions in Storybrooke were totally fine and heroic with regards to Zelena. 

[YaddaYadda]

Yes, but I mean if he embraced the darkness in Camelot and she tried to do this there, he was probably against her and that's why she cast the curse and erased his memory. Because he was right, he couldn't handle the darkness and Emma realized she made a mistake tethering him because she can handle the darkness (mostly). So she tried to undo it all in Storybrooke.

 

Hook's actions in Storybrooke were totally fine and heroic with regards to Zelena. 

 

It's possible.

 

One thing though. His name was on the sword which means he could've been controlled as well to stop whatever shit he might've been doing. The sword as a whole doesn't command anyone, and I sort of wonder if the reason for that is because there's 2 name on it, so they negate each other?

 

There are a lot of things that should be happening in the next 2 episodes. I mean there's 3 whole weeks of whatever happened in Camelot, recapturing Zelena, putting the sword back in the stone, a plausible explanation as to why Nimue is needed, though I'm having a bit of an inkling on that right now, and who cast the curse, and how.

[Rumsy4]

There are a lot of things that should be happening in the next 2 episodes. I mean there's 3 whole weeks of whatever happened in Camelot, recapturing Zelena, putting the sword back in the stone, a plausible explanation as to why Nimue is needed, though I'm having a bit of an inkling on that right now, and who cast the curse, and how.

 

Do tell... I'm still not sure that voice mail wasn't tampered with. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

Do tell... I'm still not sure that voice mail wasn't tampered with.

I'm sure we'll get back to the voice mail just like we did in 4A...

 

 

There are a lot of things that should be happening in the next 2 episodes. I mean there's 3 whole weeks of whatever happened in Camelot, recapturing Zelena, putting the sword back in the stone, a plausible explanation as to why Nimue is needed, though I'm having a bit of an inkling on that right now, and who cast the curse, and how.

We also have to save Dopey somehow!

Edited November 16, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Do tell... I'm still not sure that voice mail wasn't tampered with. 

I don't think it was tempered with. There's no reason for it. Emma has met Nimue, and if her whole mission this whole time was to unite Excalibur to cut down the darkness, so it couldn't have been her that tempered with it.

 

And Hook? I'm not really sure, he would've.

 

You also know what I think of Hook and Nimue. But seriously, what if he's the one who cast the curse? If she's his momma, the tree magic would actually fit.

Edited November 16, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Rumsy4]

You also know what I think of Hook and Nimue. But seriously, what if he's the one who cast the curse? If she's his momma, the tree magic would actually fit.

 

Ooh yeah... I forgot. :-p Basically I dread what Dark Hook might do in Camelot (and Storybrooke, I guess). But I also want to see the end! haha

[LizaD]

Still doesn't explain why Merlin want anyone to find Nimue, especially the way she went after him, and Emma.

Because Nimue-DO Emma was the only that would be able to kill him, Merlin. Now that DO Hook is descended from Merlin's line, it still holds true. Except Merlin knows Emma would never kill Hook, DO or otherwise. That leaves a liberated Nimue to do it. Now why he thinks Nimue would do it? Beats me. Maybe he knows Nimue is power mad enough to not want a competitor? Or the writers are being their usual selves and don't care about making sense.

you'd do everything in your power to stop me," it probably means he did try to stop her in Camelot because he doesn't want to get rid of the darkness.

I think the opposite. He was trying to get rid of the darkness and Emma wouldn't let him cause the dude would be dead and undo all she did. And yes I'm totally getting a variation of Buffy and Angel. One of them has to kill the other to get rid of the darkness and since technically Hook is dead man walking anyway....

[Rumsy4]

But why was dark magic oozing out of Merlin? I don't get it... 

[YaddaYadda]

Now that DO Hook is descended from Merlin's line, it still holds true.

 

 

Okay, but Merlin's darkness wasn't exactly dark since he was forced into whatever. I think I'm missing the point you're trying to make. I'm sure I'll get it after I get some sleep, but just in case, can you explain that?

[InsertWordHere]

Thinking of the Dark!Hook fight with Rumple, maybe he is trying to do the same thing to Rumple that Emma was trying to do to Zelena this episode. I don't think even non-Dark!Hook would be against giving the darkness back to Rumple even if it will kill him, which is how this whole thing started anyway. It's basically a big game of Musical Darkness and if you have the darkness when the music stops, you're screwed.

[YaddaYadda]

It seems Hook's thirst for revenge is suddenly back. I hope they don't take him from 0 to 100, because his ass was doing just fine before he found out what Emma did. But it's this show, so I'm expecting some extra fuckery to go with that sword fight.

 

I thought the promo was more a callback to what happened during the Crocodile, when Rumple cut off Hook's hand. I guess one small mercy is that he doesn't seem to have Belle there to you know, crush her heart in front of Rumple. i hope he leaves her alone.

[LizaD]

Okay, but Merlin's darkness wasn't exactly dark since he was forced into whatever.

But it was. We saw Emma sucking Merlin's black magic from him with the flame. He was the co-DO with Emma for a hot second. Probably the shortest reign on record. Yeah it was lazily and crappily done but its A&E. He started a new line of DO source magic. We didn't see him get reborn but Nimue wasn't either. They're the source so it makes sense. Isn't that why tethering Hook to Merlin's half of Excalibur made Hook the new DO?

Even Hook said he wouldn't be able to overcome the DO power like Merlin and Emma did. Which you know is just a big ol anvil that he will.

Now the whole put it in Zelena and kill her doesn't make a lick of sense. Why could they get rid of it in Camelot without killing anyone and why can't they do the same now? I mean killing Zelena would just put it back into whomever killed her no?

[retrograde]

i predict they end up putting all the darkness back into Rumple. That character is boring as batshit as a "hero" and there's no way they're going to keep him without magic for long.

[Souris]

But it was. We saw Emma sucking Merlin's black magic from him with the flame. He was the co-DO with Emma for a hot second. Probably the shortest reign on record. Yeah it was lazily and crappily done but its A&E. He started a new line of DO source magic. We didn't see him get reborn but Nimue wasn't either. They're the source so it makes sense. Isn't that why tethering Hook to Merlin's half of Excalibur made Hook the new DO?

Even Hook said he wouldn't be able to overcome the DO power like Merlin and Emma did. Which you know is just a big ol anvil that he will.

Now the whole put it in Zelena and kill her doesn't make a lick of sense. Why could they get rid of it in Camelot without killing anyone and why can't they do the same now? I mean killing Zelena would just put it back into whomever killed her no?

 

There's always a measure of "doesn't make a lick of sense" in their storytelling. Le sigh.

 

My hope is that Hook is able to overcome the darkness and sacrifices himself to destroy the darkness once & for all. That would be fitting since he sought to destroy the Dark One for so long. But I keep thinking about the fairy tale "The Queen & the Murderer" that JMo cited several times, and in that the Queen saves herself by ultimately killing the murderer.

 

I also think that Hook is the Dark One who showed up in Merlin's voicemail message in Camelot.

[PixiePaws1]

ok..been thinking about a DO Killian and what he might want....Nimue was motivated by revenge and Merlin warned Emma not to give in to revenge...and what motivated Hook for all those years...

I am thinking maybe Hook forced Emma to cast the curse..killing Merlin by channeling Nimue because for some reason he couldn't channel Nimue..or he forced her to crush his own heart because he's immortal..to get back to SB to kill Rumple. Emma is taking responsibility for the curse because she feels responsible for everything DO Killian does and she threw in the memory wipe to keep Killian from murdering Rumple and finding out what she did..and everyone else finding out that Killian is a DO and what he did in Camelot.

Edited November 16, 2015 by PixiePaws1

[RadioGirl27]

I expect Hook to be the worst DO ever and I'm sure he is going to do a lot of bad things. That way A&E can go "see, Emma and Hook are worse than Regina and Rumple, stop rooting for them and do it for our favourites".

But the truth is that Hook can go in a killing spree and kill all of the "heroes" and I would still root for him. What Emma has done to him is terrible.

Edited November 16, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[YaddaYadda]

I am thinking maybe Hook forced Emma to cast the curse..killing Merlin by channeling Nimue because for some reason he couldn't channel Nimue..or he forced her to crush his own heart because he's immortal..to get back to SB to kill Rumple.

 

I'm probably gonna end up being wrong about this, and maybe I'm getting this wrong, but I thought Dark One Nimue hated Merlin. She wanted him dead because the darkness and the magic are more important to her than he is.

 

I know what Emma said, that her love is all twisted up, but even if it's all messed up, you don't aim to kill someone. So I don't know how the whole channeling Nimue would work out in order to crush Merlin's heart and cast the curse.

 

I'm not even sure Emma cast the curse. I think Hook did, and I think he and Emma agreed to do it together, and wipe everyone's memories. I'm sure he had no objections about killing Zelena back in Camelot since what happened to him is partially her fault.

[Serena]

Well, even if Nimue kind of hates Merlin (but I think we're supposed to think she loves him), he could still be the person she loves most?

[YaddaYadda]

Well, even if Nimue kind of hates Merlin (but I think we're supposed to think she loves him), he could still be the person she loves most?

That is messed up in so many ways. I can't even start.

 

This is like someone getting a beating, then being told it's done for their own good. But since it's on par with this show, I could see it.

[FierceAfroChick]

Does anyone have any theories on how Hook and Emma can be freed from the Dark One curse?  I’m trying to think of something, but the mechanics of becoming the Dark One and how the Dagger/Excalibur work are so convoluted, I am lost as to how they can be cured without losing their lives.

[Serena]

Apparently Emma's plan is to use Excalibur to "cut" the darkness out of both, just like it was in Camelot? Except if Killian loses the darkness, wouldn't he die?

[Joenigma]

First of all, while the story quality in a few episodes have improved, I am highly disappointed with this season in terms of arc. Going in I had such excitement for Dark One Emma and Sorcerer Merlin, but now that seeing Killian becoming a second Dark One really just ruins the arc for me.

   

 

Well, even if Nimue kind of hates Merlin (but I think we're supposed to think she loves him), he could still be the person she loves most?

They had that line where Emma told Merlin that Nimue still loves him.

 

If the curse to bring everyone from Camelot back to Storybrook still requires a heart, my theory would be Merlin's heart was used and thru Emma Nimue cast the curse.

[Rumsy4]

That is messed up in so many ways. I can't even start.

 

This is like someone getting a beating, then being told it's done for their own good. But since it's on par with this show, I could see it.

 

Exactly. This kind of sentiment fits right into the Show's messed up ideas of love and morality.

 

ETA: What if there is more to come that reveals why Emma is so mad at her parents and Regina and thinks they betrayed her. There's still two or three weeks left in Camelot (how long have they been back in Storybrooke?). It's possible that Snowing and Regina freak out and attempt to control the DOs using Excalibur/Dagger. Regina could potentially command Emma to destroy Dark Hook. She arrogantly thinks she is the only one who will make the right call when it comes to Dark Swan. That could play into the reason why Emma/Hook cast the Dark Curse. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by Rumsy4

[scarynikki12]

I really hope we get to see Regina and the Charmings do something awful enough to be worthy of Emma's anger but I'm starting to wonder if their protestations in Birth are going to be it. It seems like that wouldn't be enough to incur her anger but this is the same show that had Regina react to her finance's murder by targeting a ten year old, Rumpel murder his wife because she left him and Bae for another man, and Snow deciding that the best way to protect Do Over from Zelena was to cast the Curse again and displace countless people. These people overreact to EVERYTHING so those few seconds where Emma was told not to save Hook could be the big betrayal scene we've been expecting all season.

I hope not but I wouldn't be surprised.

[Serena]

But then again, Emma didn't really do anything to them for their "betrayal", and telling them she was angry could have been a ploy to keep them away while she did everything in her power to save Killian.

[Curio]

I don't think we'll get anything too deep to be honest. There's 2 episodes left before they wrap up this arc. Emma and Hook will fight, and makeup at the 11th hour.

 

Is it bad that I kind of want this Dark Hook plot to last longer than 5A? I mean, we've spent the past 9 episodes just on Dark Swan alone (with some filler crap thrown in there), so it's really hard for me to imagine how they could wrap up Hook's Dark One journey in a fraction of that time. We still have to learn who casts the curse to get back to Storybrooke, what happened to Merlin, how Nimue ties into all of this, find out why people turn into trees if they cross the town line, and if they wrap up this Dark Hook storyline for the 5A finale, then we have to see him get rid of the darkness, too. That's a whole lot of story to cram into two episodes, so I'm hoping they don't rush all of that in and spread some of it over into 5B.

 

Oh wait, these are the same writers who completely screwed Hook over in 4x11 and rushed his big arc for the half season. All bets are off.

 

Does anyone have any theories on how Hook and Emma can be freed from the Dark One curse?  I’m trying to think of something, but the mechanics of becoming the Dark One and how the Dagger/Excalibur work are so convoluted, I am lost as to how they can be cured without losing their lives.

 

I wouldn't overthink it. They'll most likely pull something out of their asses at the last second like they always do. 

[Shanna Marie]

Since Dark Ones can heal just about anything (except when they can't), and we know Rumple was capable of returning Hook's hand, and since Dark Hook shouldn't necessarily be worried too much about the minor influence of a cursed (or not) hand, will Hook get his left hand back, maybe for good? It seems like after all this, if he still has the hook, it's purely for branding purposes, not for anything intrinsic to the character or story. Would someone with the capability of getting back a lost limb really choose to keep a hook instead?

[KAOS Agent]

 

Does anyone have any theories on how Hook and Emma can be freed from the Dark One curse?  I’m trying to think of something, but the mechanics of becoming the Dark One and how the Dagger/Excalibur work are so convoluted, I am lost as to how they can be cured without losing their lives.

 

I figure they'll go the Buffy/Angel route. Except Hook & Emma will make it a mutual decision for Emma to kill him. The Darkness would be gone along with Hook. There is no fix for this except for Emma to let go and for Hook to die.

[chrisvee]

Emma has the sword fragment in Camelot that can control Dark Killian so I'm not too worried about what happens there. It's the Dagger and the Flame that she left unprotected (maybe?) when she zoomed them to the Middlemist field.

In SB...Dark Emma's plan was to cut the darkness out of herself and tether it to Zelena (like she did with Merlin/Hook) then kill Zelena with Excalibur, right? So I'm not sure outright killing Dark Killian with Excalibur in SB frees Emma. Unless there are more new rules.

Edited November 17, 2015 by chrisvee

[Camera One]

Let me guess... We will get one episode with the flashbacks to the "surprise" regarding who cast the Dark Curse and under what circumstance (let me guess, Henry with the steak knife in the Conservatory).  And then a half-season finale with a mad-dash climax to find the magical fuzzy dice that can absorb darkness from two people at once, while setting up for the 5B arc.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

That's pretty much it. They have one episode of Dark!Hook/curse casting Camelot shenanigans and then we need a wrap up/set up in the finale. For all that the show has now essentially turned into the Dark One arc, they still need to have scenes wrapping up Merida, Arthur,  all of the sanded Camelotians and Henry/Violet's mini romance. Remember all the stupid Frozen stuff in the 4A finale that took away from the resolution of Hook's missing heart? Yeah, I see that happening again here. There's too much going on to get a satisfying resolution to things.

[Camera One]

Don't forget Lancelot.  Wherever the hell he is.

[tennisgurl]

The real magic in this show? How it makes characters and plot lines disappear without a trace. 

[chrisvee]

They'll probably pull the darkness out of him in the hallway near the bathroom at Granny's.

[Curio]

And it will take exactly 23 seconds.

[Shanna Marie]

They'll probably pull the darkness out of him in the hallway near the bathroom at Granny's.

And then after a quick kiss, she'll run off to do shots with her good friend Regina.

[Dianthus]

Yeah, still bitter over here too.

[Camera One]

Yeah, two episodes and what's left to be done...

 

In flashback:

- immediate aftermath of Dark Hook

- who/how enacted the Dark Curse

- what happened to Merlin

- what happened to Lancelot

- how Regina, Snowing, etc. "failed" Dark Emma

- how Excalibur ended up back in the Stone

- Waste of time... urh, I mean, Merida's revenge on Arthur and how she was carried along in the Curse

- flashback(s) that sets up for next season's arc 

- why the scene with Merlin being the usher was soooooooooo important

 

In current-day:

- resolution for Merida

- resolution for Guinevere being sanded

- the downfall of Arthur

- whatever contrived mess will keep Zelena in Storybrooke and still interacting with everyone

- Hook dealing with knowledge of being Dark

- Rumple the newfound hero and Belle

- everyone getting their memories back / breaking of the Memory Curse

- everyone finding out Dark Emma's true reasons/agenda

- someone finding out how Emma and Hook can be separated from the Darkness

- the quest to find the object/person/conditions needed to do this 

- Climatic separation of Emma and Hook from the Darkness / what becomes of the Dark One Curse

- Henry and Violet... long-distance relationship?

- A few happy moments (Emma/Hook, Emma/Regina, Regina/Robin)

- how something backfires and sets up for next season's arc in Storybrooke

 

All that only takes 80 minutes, right?

Edited November 17, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

You forgot some resolution to the Rumpel hero arc. He & Belle will come into play in some way too.

[Camera One]

Maybe when someone asks Rumple about Merlin's message re: Nimue and who she is?

I also forgot everyone's memories returning and Henry perhaps saying goodbye to Violet.  I'll add those in too.