The NBA

[truthaboutluv]

On 5/15/2020 at 11:45 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I have a hard time believing that Jordan, as tired as he was, wouldn't want to go for 4 in a row. He literally said, 'Bird and Magic never did three in a row.' 

Right and he had done the three in a row. So he'd already proven that. As another poster said, I understand why this will never make sense to some and so people will always look for some deeper conspiracy.

But honestly, I just think it was a combination of things building up, his father's death then being the last straw, that basically had Jordan in a mentally and emotionally exhausted state.

The truth is, Jordan likely just needed a break, which is more than understandable for the all the pressure and expectations this man had on him at the time. He just needed some time away from the game. Because being Michael Jordan of the Bulls had become a lot - physically, emotionally and mentally.

On 5/17/2020 at 9:18 PM, Growsonwalls said:

Watching the last two episodes. MJ sounds so incredibly petty about Karl Malone and Byron Russell.

He did? I didn't even notice. I know he basically scoffed at Malone's winning the MVP and Russel became another in the long line of he said the wrong thing and was on Jordan's hit list.

But honestly, I think much of the latter part of the documentary was more so what all the players were going through physically and just how mentally taxing getting that final win was. 

I will say I do have respect for Karl Malone coming onto the Bulls' bus to hug and congratulate the team, particularly Jordan, one last time, before they left. I wouldn't have been that generous. I shake your hand on the court, we're good.

[truthaboutluv]

On 5/18/2020 at 2:25 PM, LilWharveyGal said:

We were wondering that, too. And if everyone present thought that the delivery guys were shady, why on earth did Jordan eat the pizza?

Yeah following the social media talk on that part of the documentary had me rolling. But seriously, that was some shady shit. I do think the reason they didn't view the five guys delivering the pizza as suspicious, is because I think they just assumed the pizza place figured out the delivery was for Jordan and so some of the guys came along to get a chance to get a glance at or meet the great Michael Jordan.

I want to believe people don't take sports that seriously as try and poison a player, but there have been too many instances in the past showing just how seriously some take sports. I'll choose to believe maybe the pizza sauce had just gone bad. 

[DoctorAtomic]

9 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Right and he had done the three in a row. So he'd already proven that. As another poster said, I understand why this will never make sense to some and so people will always look for some deeper conspiracy.

I wasn't looking for a deeper conspiracy. I was looking for some insight from Jordan beyond that. Willingly stopping at three from all we've seen up to that point from him is just a garbage response. Russell won more in a row. 

He's not being honest with himself. This is a guy who takes issue with the weather if the wind was blowing the wrong way. The guy has issues, and it costing him years on his life and a peaceful retirement. 

Edited May 20, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[truthaboutluv]

1 minute ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Willingly stopping at three from all we've seen up to that point from him is just a garbage response. He's not being honest with himself.

But I don't think that was his response per se - simply that three was enough. I thought Michael made it obvious and others pointed it out as well, that he was just burned out. I don't think he's ever denied feeling spent at that time.

Maybe I just saw things differently but YMMV, that's what I got from the documentary about that period. That this man was so clearly emotionally and mentally exhausted with everything and his father's death was like the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Growsonwalls]

Well after watching this 10 part series oddly the person I worry the most about is ... MJ. I know he has all the fame, adoration, and $$$ anyone could dream of. He won't be hurting for money, that's for sure.

But he just seems so ... troubled. Unhappy. In a way that lesser stars of his era aren't. It's hard to believe he's roughly the same age as Reggie Miller and Charles Barkley and younger than Isiah Thomas and Magic Johnson but looks about 15 years older with the bloated look and bloodshot eyes. I think it's obvious he has a gambling problem and probably has a big drinking problem too. 

Anyway I enjoyed this series but I kind of wonder whether it was even good for MJ to do this. Not sure having person after person come onscreen with "great player, but total asshole" stories was exactly the effect they were shooting for when this project was first developed.

[emma675]

I saved the last episode and finally watched it this morning. I liked how it didn't jump back and forth in time like the others and just concentrated on the final championship run. 

But, wow, Jordan just seems like a deeply unhappy man. The final shots, where he was sitting alone looking out a window at the ocean smoking a cigar and then walking away. I feel like they were aiming for the image of a man who has accomplished everything and has everything he could want in life, but it left me feeling like he's pushed away everyone with his ego and attitude and he doesn't even get it. He seems like a man who always has to have a grudge or something left unfinished to drive him (the mention of not being able to go for a 7th championship and blaming the Bulls' owner stood out to me). He just seems like someone who is never fully happy or satisfied with anything. And maybe that's what made him so driven, I don't know. But Pippen, Kerr, Kuckoc, and the others seem so much more happy and satisfied with what they accomplished and with their lives. I would want to hang out with any of them and listen to their stories. I don't think I'd want to hang out with Jordan. It was a stark contrast for me. 

[Mean Machine]

Yeah, poor Michael Jordan.  Hopefully he gets himself to some AA and Gamblers Anonymous meetings so he can become a happier, more fulfilled person.

[Danny Franks]

Watching episode 9 of The Last Dance, and I've decided to invent a drinking game that only insane people would play - take a shot every time Michael Jordan says "that made it personal."

God, this guy is so thin-skinned, petty and insecure. He's considered the greatest ever, but is so offended by anyone suggesting there's another player who might be anywhere near him. I'm not sure he's ever been able to fully enjoy his status, the way he obsesses over any challenge to it.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Danny Franks

[Growsonwalls]

5 minutes ago, Mean Machine said:

Yeah, poor Michael Jordan.  Hopefully he gets himself to some AA and Gamblers Anonymous meetings so he can become a happier, more fulfilled person.

As it happens last night I was rewatching episodes of Celebrity Big Brother where Ron Artest/Metta World Peace was a contestant. Now Artest/Metta was infamous in his playing days for his rough defense and also for his explosive temper (like the Malice in the Palace brawl). 

He also acknowledged he had issues with anxiety and depression. However Metta/Artest in the Big Brother house was a nice, goofy, if somewhat dim guy (he didn't know how to vote to evict someone). He loved to work out and cuddle with Orwell the owl. He was narcissistic as many pro athletes are but his overall personality was that of an overgrown man-child. His fellow HG's adored him. Nice guy.

I think many pro athletes have rough years after retirement. They're huge stars and then they have to see a new era of huge stars eclipse them. Many of them run into financial problems. The issue with MJ is that more than 20 years after the last Bulls championship he still seems to be going through that retirement "rough patch." Still stewing about past grievances, still unable to enjoy life away from the hoops. 

Couldn't believe how worked up he got over Karl Malone getting MVP. I am almost 100% positive that Karl Malone doesn't spend his days obsessing over MJ being a total asshole to him as a result of Malone getting the MVP.

[DoctorAtomic]

30 minutes ago, Mean Machine said:

Yeah, poor Michael Jordan.  Hopefully he gets himself to some AA and Gamblers Anonymous meetings so he can become a happier, more fulfilled person.

Those are fixable problems. The mental health issues is what I think we're all saying are deeply rooted and likely to cause more long term damage. 

One could argue Kerr accomplished nearly as much with being part of the Bulls and then managing the Warriors dynasty. He's not all bitter and slighted. 

Even the gambling. He's never going to run out of money, so I don't see it that much of an issue. 

[Growsonwalls]

1 minute ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Those are fixable problems. The mental health issues is what I think we're all saying are deeply rooted and likely to cause more long term damage. 

One could argue Kerr accomplished nearly as much with being part of the Bulls and then managing the Warriors dynasty. He's not all bitter and slighted. 

Even the gambling. He's never going to run out of money, so I don't see it that much of an issue. 

The gambling however seems to isolate him and alienate people. For instance when Bill Paxson and other teammates say they avoided him on the team bus ... that's a problem. And I think the gambling and drinking are tied into his personality problems. Like it's one thing if he enjoys playing blackjack. It's another if one golf game that he lost causes him to go into orbit and for other people to hide from him.

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

As it happens last night I was rewatching episodes of Celebrity Big Brother where Ron Artest/Metta World Peace was a contestant. Now Artest/Metta was infamous in his playing days for his rough defense and also for his explosive temper (like the Malice in the Palace brawl). 

He also acknowledged he had issues with anxiety and depression. However Metta/Artest in the Big Brother house was a nice, goofy, if somewhat dim guy (he didn't know how to vote to evict someone). He loved to work out and cuddle with Orwell the owl. He was narcissistic as many pro athletes are but his overall personality was that of an overgrown man-child. His fellow HG's adored him. Nice guy.

I think many pro athletes have rough years after retirement. They're huge stars and then they have to see a new era of huge stars eclipse them. Many of them run into financial problems. The issue with MJ is that more than 20 years after the last Bulls championship he still seems to be going through that retirement "rough patch." Still stewing about past grievances, still unable to enjoy life away from the hoops. 

Couldn't believe how worked up he got over Karl Malone getting MVP. I am almost 100% positive that Karl Malone doesn't spend his days obsessing over MJ being a total asshole to him as a result of Malone getting the MVP.

Ron Artest/Metta World Peace is another subject of the Hall of Shame podcast. They did a two parter on his career, and I thought painted a picture of him that was more sympathetic than you'd hear from a lot of basketball media types. A guy who had a lot of troubles in his life - some unavoidable, some brought on himself - but has persevered and become a genuine success story.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Danny Franks

[Growsonwalls]

A little quarantine drama from Paul Pierce: 

Read the comments section. 

[Popples]

2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Watching episode 9 of The Last Dance, and I've decided to invent a drinking game that only insane people would play - take a shot every time Michael Jordan says "that made it personal."

God, this guy is so thin-skinned, petty and insecure. He's considered the greatest ever, but is so offended by anyone suggesting there's another player who might be anywhere near him. I'm not sure he's ever been able to fully enjoy his status, the way he obsesses over any challenge to it.

One of the funniest tweets I read on Sunday night said something like "Michael Jordan would be offended if he found out another player was their own mother's favorite basketball player."

[Growsonwalls]

I'm surprised the documentary didn't cover Jordan's infamous "shoot it, you fucking midget" slur against Muggsy Bogues. Maybe that's something MJ requested to be taken out because even he realizes that calling anyone a "midget" is not a good look. 

[truthaboutluv]

3 hours ago, Mean Machine said:

Yeah, poor Michael Jordan.  Hopefully he gets himself to some AA and Gamblers Anonymous meetings so he can become a happier, more fulfilled person.

Is there any legitimate proof of Michael Jordan's having a drinking problem? Because I've certainly never seen or heard any evidence of it. The gambling, yes. Drinking, no. And referencing his eyes, yes admittedly they were very yellow. However, I definitely noticed his eyes looking strangely discolored in some of the old video footage of him when he was much younger. In other words there could be any number of reasons for this.

And referencing the glass of scotch or whiskey next to him during the interview portions also seem like a stretch since one, we never saw him drinking from it, I swear that thing looked the same the entire time. In other words, to me that looked more like a stage manager set up of the perfect shot of the powerful aging legend with the expensive liquor and fancy cigar next to him. I certainly didn't think "alcoholic".

17 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Anyway I enjoyed this series but I kind of wonder whether it was even good for MJ to do this. Not sure having person after person come onscreen with "great player, but total asshole" stories was exactly the effect they were shooting for when this project was first developed.

If social media and much of the media coverage is anything to go by, I'd say Michael's legacy is still perfectly in tact. Did some come away thinking he was a bigger asshole than they realized, sure. Did those who already didn't care for him, come out hating him even more, sure. 

However, for many people, the documentary further solidified and reminded many of the legacy he created and why he is the GOAT in many people's eyes. I've seen so many comments from people who were too young or maybe hadn't even been born during Michael's heydays and so basketball for them is LeBron vs Kobe or LeBron vs. Curry, saying, "okay, I get it now. I get how this guy was bigger even than just basketball". So honestly, yeah I'd say Michael's legacy is still untouched. 

 

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Couldn't believe how worked up he got over Karl Malone getting MVP. I am almost 100% positive that Karl Malone doesn't spend his days obsessing over MJ being a total asshole to him as a result of Malone getting the MVP.

I didn't think Michael seemed worked up about Malone's getting MVP, so much as it just gave him something to drive his determination to beat the Jazz. I get why some viewed these things as "oh this petty man" but I feel like the story of the young Wizards player, where Michael admitted he made the whole thing up, was proof that this was just a way he found to drive him and his will to win.

Yeah maybe not the healthiest and some may say it's too mean and competitive but I really feel like it was a mental, sort of mind games thing with him. Find something, anything to view that person as the enemy at the moment, to fuel his drive to defeat them. I mean yeah I don't think like this but I'm not an elite athlete. 

It's like how Novak Djokovic drives himself to win based on the determination to have the tennis world love and revere him. He's so determined to be more beloved than Roger Federer and the greatest of all time and it's given him this lazer like obsessive determination. And many have called him pathetic for how much he clearly wants to be loved. But hey, apparently it's working because he's winning. 

 

44 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

A little quarantine drama from Paul Pierce: 

This is so ridiculous to me and why I never get into these sports debates. People get so dogged about their faves and act all offended when someone doesn't deify their fave the way they think they should. This is Paul Pierce's opinion - agree or disagree, whatever. But these are the players that HE believes are the five greatest.

And that's his right. Listen, I love, love Rafa Nadal. If some person doesn't believe Rafa is one of the 5 greatest male tennis players of all time, I'm not going to get all up in arms about it. That's their opinion. I disagree with it but they're entitled to it. 

Edited May 20, 2020 by truthaboutluv

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

Is there any legitimate proof of Michael Jordan's having a drinking problem? Because I've certainly never seen or heard any evidence of it. The gambling, yes. Drinking, no. And referencing his eyes, yes admittedly they were very yellow. However, I definitely noticed his eyes looking strangely discolored in some of the old video footage of him when he was much younger. In other words there could be any number of reasons for this.

Well for me certainly the bloated face and yellow bloodshot eyes are telltale marks of alcoholism. Yellow discolored eyes are often a sign of liver damage. And MJ has been seen carrying half-empty bottles of tequila when out and about:

The constant cigar smoking can't be good for him either. He has the vocal fry of a long-time smoker and when you compare him to the fit, ageless look of, say, Reggie Miller (who actually is only 2 years younger than him) it does stand out. 

[mojoween]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

And many have called him pathetic for how much he clearly wants to be loved. But hey, apparently it's working because he's winning. 

Novak will never be as beloved as Roger and if he does break the Slam mark?  He’ll be public enemy number one.

 

On 5/18/2020 at 3:27 PM, Growsonwalls said:

I'm just kind of shocked that MJ the biggest superstar in the world couldn't get food except for a sketchy pizza delivery place.

According to the director, the Bulls were staying at a hotel on the outskirts of SLC so that pizza shop was the only thing open. 

Also Jordan wouldn’t let anyone else eat the pizza because all the rest of the group had eaten earlier and Jordan didn’t, so they weren’t allowed to eat the pizza.

[emma675]

I saw a story on CNN.com this morning and they tracked down the guy who made and delivered the pizza that night. He was a Bulls fan living in SLC and claims he made it himself (thin and crispy with extra pepperoni) because he didn't trust the other local guys in the store to not mess with it. He says he was the only guy who delivered it, that Jordan's floor reeked of cigar smoke, and Jordan was shirtless or wearing a tank top when it was freezing outside. He claims the pizza was fine and Jordan's claims of food poisoning were bogus. Who knows at this point? You've got different stories on each side.

[DoctorAtomic]

Well, we all know Jordan couldn't have *possibly* done anything wrong so it must be the pizza. 

[DoctorAtomic]

3 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

And referencing the glass of scotch or whiskey next to him during the interview portions also seem like a stretch since one, we never saw him drinking from it, I swear that thing looked the same the entire time. In other words, to me that looked more like a stage manager set up of the perfect shot of the powerful aging legend with the expensive liquor and fancy cigar next to him. I certainly didn't think "alcoholic".

A few pages back there was an article about the drinking and the producers confirmed that he was drinking during the interviews. It was tequila. 

Far be it from me to call someone out on their drinking because I tend to do too much too, but I'm not sure on a 10 hour documentary on my life, I need to have that there the whole time. It came up here right from the jump and it was brought up in an npr interview I listened to. 

It may not have any correlation to his eyes, but the fact enough people are noticing it, and he doesn't is telling. 

I don't think this tarnishes his legacy either, but I just feel kind of bad for him. 

 

[truthaboutluv]

15 hours ago, emma675 said:

He claims the pizza was fine and Jordan's claims of food poisoning were bogus. Who knows at this point? You've got different stories on each side.

I guess I understand the guy's being defensive because people are on social media saying, "omg, did people in Utah try to poison Michael". But saying his having food poisoning is bogus is ridiculous.

Because people get food poisoning all the time from food that was prepared just fine. So no, there didn't have to be anything sinister behind the preparation of the pizza on his part. But maybe the sauce or cheese or something in it just simply didn't agree with Michael's stomach that night. It happens. 

And not for nothing, it's not like the food poisoning was even made public at the time. Because back then, everyone assumed Michael had the flu because that's what the sports media was reporting. That he had 'flu-like" symptoms. I'm one of those that until this documentary, that's what I thought was wrong with him. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by truthaboutluv

[Growsonwalls]

This was from two months ago but here's Steph Curry interviewing Dr. Fauci.

I really think this is an area where the superstar brand has improved. The interview is fairly bland -- Curry doesn't pretend to know much about infectious diseases and is happy to just ask questions and listen. But it's cool that NBA stars feel comfortable doing more off the court than selling sneakers.

I wonder if had MJ come of age in a different era whether he'd have a healthier outlet for his hypercompetitiveness than gambling. 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Growsonwalls

[xaxat]

11 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Well for me certainly the bloated face and yellow bloodshot eyes are telltale marks of alcoholism. Yellow discolored eyes are often a sign of liver damage.

They are also a sign of having high levels of melanin

Quote

The most common cause of the whites of the eyes taking on a brownish and sometimes blotchy color in African-Americans is melanin pigment in the surface tissue of the eye, known as the sclera and conjunctiva. This is benign and there is no treatment safe enough to use for such a benign condition. This can sometimes be confused with a yellowing of the whites of the eyes which may be a sign of liver disease.

My grandfather had this syndrome and he didn't drink. So I don't think this is any type of conclusive evidence.

[vibeology]

12 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Because people get food poisoning all the time from food that was prepared just fine. So no, there didn't have to be anything sinister behind the preparation of the pizza on his part. But maybe the sauce or cheese or something in it just simply didn't agree with Michael's stomach that night. It happens. 

This. No one had to act in a malicious manner for Jordan to get sick. And it's pretty clear from the game clips that he was sick.

It's shitty that the documentary implied that it must have been intentional on the pizza place's part. Way more likely that one of the ingredients was just off. I worked at a pizza place back in high school and I think it's actually pretty hard to intentionally tamper with a pizza. It's not like we kept bad ingredients lying around.

[DoctorAtomic]

4 hours ago, xaxat said:

My grandfather had this syndrome and he didn't drink. So I don't think this is any type of conclusive evidence.

No, but it's hard not to make a connection when he's literally carrying around a bottle of booze in public and constantly has one in every scene in the documentary. 

[truthaboutluv]

28 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

No, but it's hard not to make a connection when he's literally carrying around a bottle of booze in public and constantly has one in every scene in the documentary. 

YMMV but these things are still giant leaps to the man is an alcoholic in my opinion. Yes, the carrying a bottle of booze in his hand was random and odd. But for me, there is a long trail and history regarding Micheal and the gambling. That's just straight facts. We've been hearing about this since the early 90's and it's come to a head multiple times. 

Unless I have missed it, I have seen no credible history of tea and receipts and sources saying Michael Jordan is constantly in an inebriated state, there have been no DUI's, no reports of Michael Jordan being drunk at events, etc. Multiple things that would tell you that yes, this man clearly has a problem with alcohol.

So for me, until that's the case, I don't buy having a glass of liquor, along with a cigar, because he was smoking too, while being interviewed for a documentary and a picture of him with a bottle of booze is proof positive that he needs to go to rehab for drinking. Maybe he does and has just hid it very well all these years. I don't know the man personally. I just think those are some huge assumptions to make based on very little. 

And for all the talk of how petty Michael was and how bitter he still is, honestly, I came away from the documentary feeling like the only person Michael to this day genuinely dislikes on a very personal level, is Isiah Thomas. Did he have his petty issues with other people, sure. But in terms of genuinely hating another player, I really felt like that is only Isiah Thomas. And let's face it, he didn't deny or try to pretend otherwise.

Edited May 21, 2020 by truthaboutluv

[emma675]

Here's the link to the cnn.com pizza story, if anyone is interested: https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/20/sport/michael-jordan-pizza-craig-fite-flu-game-last-dance-horace-grant-spt-intl/index.html

[Growsonwalls]

Well there's more The Last Dance drama, this time involving Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant.

Quote

Pippen, the Hall of Fame small forward and Jordan’s most imporant teammate during their imperious march to six NBA championships in eight years, is “beyond livid” with his portrayal in the 10-part docuseries, a Chicago-based ESPN Radio host said on Wednesday.

Related: 'Lie, lie, lie': Former Jordan teammate gives withering assessment of The Last Dance

“He is so angry at Michael and how he was portrayed, called selfish, called this, called that, that he’s furious that he participated and did not realize what he was getting himself into,” ESPN 1000’s David Kaplan said on the Kap and Co radio show.

And Horace Grant weighs in:

Quote

“I would say [the documentary was] entertaining, but we know, who was there as teammates, that about 90% of it [was] BS in terms of the realness of it,” Grant said in an interview on ESPN 1000’s Kap and Co radio show on Tuesday. “It wasn’t real – because a lot of things [Jordan] said to some of his teammates, that his teammates went back at him. But all of that was kind of edited out of the documentary, if you want to call it a documentary.”

Jordan is depicted as a man ruthlessly devoted to winning in The Last Dance, even if it comes at the expense of his personal popularity. Grant, who was with the Bulls for seven years, said Jordan sometimes went too far.

“He felt that he could dominate me, but that was sadly mistaken,” Grant said. “Because whenever he went at me, I went at him right back. But in terms of Will Perdue, Steve Kerr and the young man, Scott Burrell, that was heartbreaking [to watch]. To see a guy, a leader, to go at those guys like that. I understand in terms of practicing, you have a push and shove here and there, but outright punching [teammates] and things of that nature. And calling them the B’s and the H’s, that wasn’t called for.”

Again echoing what @DoctorAtomic said, the gambling and drinking are issues MJ can fix. But the personality problems that alienate him from people are harder to fix. 

I do think though that the ESPN documentary didn't just favor MJ 100%. I've talked to people who watched the doc and many people who are HUGE MJ fans have been like "Wow, asshole." And IMO if almost ALL your teammates and colleagues sit down for what's meant to be a hagiographic documentary and they end up unloading to the interviewer about what a huge asshole you were, that is MJ's problem.

[DoctorAtomic]

I thought Pippen came off fine. You'd have to criticize him for sitting out on the Kukoc. That's just poor leadership. 

I can understand him wanting to take care of himself too, in terms of wanting to be compensated for his market value. He can't be surprised Jordan thought it was selfish. Jordan was never in that situation, so you brush it off. Otherwise, he was fine. 

[xaxat]

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

No, but it's hard not to make a connection when he's literally carrying around a bottle of booze in public and constantly has one in every scene in the documentary.

He was leaving a meeting planning the launch of his tequila brand. Not randomly wandering the street like some drunk at Mardi Gras. And drinking your product in public is part of being a celebrity endorser. 

The only reason I know that is because I scrolled through TMZ to see if I had missed an incident that might indicate he had a drinking problem. A couple of shots of him partying in the owner's box. No fights, no DUIs, no stories from current employees or former team mates. 

And TMZ knows all that shit.

[IntrovertRed]

I am loving The Last Dance.  I grew up with a father who was really big into Chicago sports and its enthusiasm was infectious.  I ended up loving the Bulls, Cubs and Bears.  I have many memories of my dad sitting in the kitchen watching TV and yelling at the players, whether it be the Bears, Bulls or Cubs.  He passed last year, so watching this has been a feeling of mixed emotions, it just brings me back to those years when I was home and I get both sad and happy.  And even though I know how the games ended, watching the replays gives me the same butterflies as we did when watching them live all those years ago (and I had to watch every single game due to my dad because he took over the big TV).  Due to the cost and popularity of the tickets at the time, I only went to one Bulls game when MJ played and he was AMAZING to watch.  Due to him, the Bulls won after three overtimes, it was just such an awesome game and I'll never forget it.  I'm so happy my dad was able to see the Bears, Bulls and Cubs all win championships in his lifetime.  

Having said that, a local Chicago sportscaster brought up that MJ seems to have problems letting go of grudges and is still pretty angry about situations after all these years.  And he's right.  MJ really does/did seems to focus on the small stuff, but I guess that's why he was great, he was able to internalize all of it and use it.

And man, seeing all the Bulls players in their 50s and 60s, wow, just makes me feel old.  I remember them in their prime from watching them on TV and loving the Bulls.  It was a shock to see MJ's appearance as well with the bloodshot eyes.

Oh and it's John Paxson, not Bill Paxson.  Just had to clear that up.

Edited May 21, 2020 by KLJ

[truthaboutluv]

2 hours ago, KLJ said:

And even though I know how the games ended, watching the replays gives me the same butterflies as we did when watching them live all those years ago (and I had to watch every single game due to my dad because he took over the big TV). 

This so much. And that's credit to the director/editors of the documentary. Even knowing the outcome of the series, the music and the edit, etc. made it so you found yourself tense and nervous like you were back there again for those Finals games. That's great film-making.

It's no surprise that Scotty's apparently not too happy about the documentary. Most figured as much when he was all but ignoring it on his social media and did no media like the slew of players who've all been interviewed at some point on some ESPN, after each episode aired. 

The thing is, I'm not sure what Scotty's upset about. Like dude, you can't be mad about them showing things that you said and did. These things happened. You chose to sit out in the final seconds of a game because of ego. And worse, he had a chance to salvage the situation in the documentary and instead he says that looking back, he'd have done the same thing. I mean, WTF? 

The money dispute situation - I think the documentary made it clear that Scotty had been severely underpaid and how unfair that was. So I don't think people were too upset when he didn't have the surgery and essentially was playing hardball with the team. Sure, maybe it wasn't the most professional way of handling things but I think many came away understanding why he would react the way he did at the time. 

I guess he's probably upset about the migraine game, because it does feel like people mocked it and many weren't buying it. Or at least, it made them look at him, like he was weak. But honestly, in general, I felt the documentary gave Pippen his props and truly highlighted just how essential he was to all those Bulls championships. 

And Horace's comment is even more baffling to me. Because it's almost like he's saying the documentary neglected to show how horrible Jordan was to these really nice guys like Kerr and Burrell, who would never fight back. Except, it didn't. At one point while watching the documentary, I even went, "man, Jordan sure loved harassing poor Burrell". And hell we got the punching Kerr story. So how did the documentary not show that yes, Jordan was a complete and utter prick and yes, maybe even a bully at times, to his teammates. 

Sure you can argue that they still tried to frame it as just his being that competitive and driven because yes, it was a documentary from his POV. But a director can frame something any way they want and people's perception will still make them draw their own conclusions. And for many, their conclusion was that yes, Jordan was kind of an asshole to his teammates. Great basketball player but a total dick at times.

Edited May 21, 2020 by truthaboutluv

[emma675]

Yeah, I don't really understand why Scotty is upset with how he was portrayed. With the exception of them highlighting him sitting out on the Kukoc last minute winning shot (which he could whine about, but it was reality), I thought he came across well. I wonder what he's mad about?

 

 

[jah1986]

I have enjoyed the series for what it was. It didn't make me feel more or less strongly about MJ. I was never a fan and that hasn't changed. I never hated him and that hasn't changed. It was entertaining though.

As far as the Pippen thing goes, I'm taking it with a grain of salt. Who is the source? Is it Pippen himself on his social media saying he's livid or just an "insider" saying he's livid?  Like others, I thought he came off pretty good. I remember the Knicks game at the time being incredulous that he did it but hearing that his teammates called him out was nice to know.

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, xaxat said:

He was leaving a meeting planning the launch of his tequila brand. Not randomly wandering the street like some drunk at Mardi Gras. And drinking your product in public is part of being a celebrity endorser. 

The only reason I know that is because I scrolled through TMZ to see if I had missed an incident that might indicate he had a drinking problem. A couple of shots of him partying in the owner's box. No fights, no DUIs, no stories from current employees or former team mates. 

And TMZ knows all that shit.

I don't know if MJ has a drinking problem, but I clicked on the link above which showed four tequila bottles, and they don't look like the bottle he was holding in the the picture that Growsonwalls posted.

[xaxat]

Probably a pre-production model. From below in the article.

Quote

The launch also answers an important age-old question ... why the hell was His Airness walking through NYC last summer holding a tequila bottle in his hand?

MJ -- who we're told was involved in everything from designing the bottle to tasting the product -- was coming from a Cincoro meeting ... and he left with a bottle.

 

[Growsonwalls]

33 minutes ago, emma675 said:

Yeah, I don't really understand why Scotty is upset with how he was portrayed. With the exception of them highlighting him sitting out on the Kukoc last minute winning shot (which he could whine about, but it was reality), I thought he came across well. I wonder what he's mad about?

 

 

Scottie is very active on social media usually but he's been radio silent about The Last Dance so I can guess he's not too happy. I also thought he came across well and the documentary let him tell his own story instead of framing him as MJ's wingman. I didn't know he had such a complicated family situation. I also thought the documentary made it clear that teammates were in awe of MJ but seemed to personally like Scottie more. IDK, I guess he has his reasons. 

In other news Kevin Love weighs in on how Lebron James is also a taskmaster, although his style is not the same as MJ:

Quote

“He’s demanding in all the right ways and for right reasons,” Love said. “He has that strive for [greatness] saying that he always lives by, and he really won’t accept anything else. I think Jordan was…they’re different in their own right. I think Kobe [Bryant] was the same in trying to get the best out of their guys. I think Bron was absolutely very, very demanding but always was looking out for his guys. Always wanted to build you up. Always wanted to set you up for success.”

Also David Robinson has been talking about the Dream Team, Dennis, etc. 

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-talk-podcast-david-robinson-92-dream-team-dennis-rodman-and-more

David Robinson was always one of my favorite players. By the way... David Robinson doesn't have the speaking voice I expected. Basketball players usually have really deep voices. Even Steph Curry has a surprisingly deep baritone voice. DR has a much higher-pitched voice than what I expected.

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, xaxat said:

Probably a pre-production model. From below in the article.

 

Since I'm bored, I googled images and they look like the four bottles that were previously posted.  However, it's possible that there was also another design later that he was holding.   

Bottom line is, he does look bad though, drinking or not.

[Growsonwalls]

MORE drama. Horace Grant really really doesn't like MJ.

There's a story of MJ telling the flight attendant not to serve Grant food because Grant didn't play well:

Quote

In a separate interview earlier this month on KNBR in San Francisco, Smith relayed a story about Jordan telling flight attendants not to serve Grant food on the plane after a bad game. Grant said Tuesday that the story is true but also said he always went right back at Jordan after the criticism.

"Anybody [who] knows me, as a rookie, if anybody comes up and tries to snatch my food away, I'm going to do my best to beat their ass," Grant said. "And believe me, back then, I could have took MJ in a heartbeat. Yes, it's true that he told the flight attendant, 'Well, don't give him anything because he played like crap.' And I went right back at him. I said some choice words that I won't repeat here. But I said some choice words and stood up. 'If you want it, you come and get it.' And of course, he didn't move. He was just barking. But that was the story.

 

[Ohwell]

I never liked MJ but I do wonder if he might have been joking about not serving Horace Grant food. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't doubt he said it, and he probably was joking. However, the documentary showed quite clearly that Jordan's joking was rooted in assholery. So it's entirely plausible an already pissed of Grant would take it the wrong way. 

[Ohwell]

MJ strikes me as the type who can dish it out, but can't take it.  So it's too bad that Horace Grant took MJ's assholery so seriously and got so worked up, especially over airplane food.   

[truthaboutluv]

I'm starting to wonder if Horace watched the whole documentary because I swear I think there was a brief clip showing Jordan saying not to serve him food. It was a quick and I think I thought at the time he was referring to Burrell.

But the point is, that stuff was in the documentary. Horace isn't revealing anything we didn't see in the documentary. That Jordan was a dick many times to his teammates, off the court. 

[Growsonwalls]

You know the 2009 HOF ceremony became so infamous for MJ's dickish speech that people forget that David Robinson was also inducted that evening. I just found his speech. What a nice, humble man.

 

[xaxat]

2 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

That Jordan was a dick many times to his teammates, off the court. 

And to Jerry Krause. That's one thing I would have liked to have seen in the doc. Someone speaking on his behalf. Jackson acted like the team formed by magic and was always fated to be together and Reinsdorf was like, "What was I gonna do? I only owned the team."

[AimingforYoko]

R.I.P. Jerry Sloan.

I always thought the fact that his best Jazz teams were denied the title by MJ's Bulls was ironic, considering that's who he played for.

[Mean Machine]

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

You know the 2009 HOF ceremony became so infamous for MJ's dickish speech that people forget that David Robinson was also inducted that evening. I just found his speech. What a nice, humble man.

 

David Robinson lost me when he had his teammates feed him the ball the last game of the season just so he could win the scoring title over Shaq.  Totally bush league and if Shaq had done the same thing he would have been buried for it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theundefeated.com/features/david-robinson-1994-scoring-title-shaq/amp/

[Growsonwalls]

28 minutes ago, Mean Machine said:

David Robinson lost me when he had his teammates feed him the ball the last game of the season just so he could win the scoring title over Shaq.  Totally bush league and if Shaq had done the same thing he would have been buried for it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theundefeated.com/features/david-robinson-1994-scoring-title-shaq/amp/

But Shaq also made up a story about David Robinson not signing an autograph. So it might have been a personal dislike between the two men. 

[truthaboutluv]

3 hours ago, xaxat said:

And to Jerry Krause. That's one thing I would have liked to have seen in the doc. Someone speaking on his behalf. Jackson acted like the team formed by magic and was always fated to be together and Reinsdorf was like, "What was I gonna do? I only owned the team."

I thought the documentary did show how instrumental Krause was to putting the team together, in the first two or three episodes. And that that was the point - that he felt he didn't get as much credit as he should have gotten for that.

And they definitely highlighted Jordan and Pippen's straight disrespect and dislike for Krause. That was very much highlighted. Jordan and Pippen went after Kukoc during the Olympic match purely because Krause was scouting Kukoc for the Bulls.