Race & Ethnicity On TV

[In2You]

12 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

I keep wondering why we have to keep getting British and Australian actors to play Americans.

Folks keep trying to say it's because they are better actors but I haven't seen anything on my screen to indicate that. 

[Neurochick]

20 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

I keep wondering why we have to keep getting British and Australian actors to play Americans.

Is it because they are more classically trained?  Is it because in the US, the emphasis is more on looks than talent? 

From what I've heard of Hollywood it's about who you know and who likes you.  So there is that.

But excluding Idris Elba, haven't most of the actors who've played Nelson Mandela been American?

[Silver Raven]

19 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I also think they did a good job of casting Joel Egerton because he also closely resembles Richard.

Wow, I was looking at pictures of Richard Loving and man, he and Egerton could be twins.

[zxy556575]

15 hours ago, In2You said:

I keep wondering why we have to keep getting British and Australian actors to play Americans.

And so many Canadians!

Smaller markets and all, but the U.S. definitely has a trade deficit. In fact, there tend to be small snits thrown if, say, an American actor is hired to play a British person. A few Brits may play Australian, but other countries are pretty insular with their own productions.

[Irlandesa]

On 1/5/2017 at 4:01 PM, Silver Raven said:

I keep wondering why we have to keep getting British and Australian actors to play Americans.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Hollywood/US does more productions than occur in the UK or Australia.  There is also generally more money in US TV and film.  So actors from other countries might come here and put their hat in the audition ring because of the opportunities. They basically compete with actors from here and elsewhere and often audition using an American accent so TPTB don't always know they're seeing foreigners. Or they develop a following in their home country that might even become a sensation in the US.  That can be attractive to producers because they're both a proven commodity and a fresh face to US audiences. 

And while they're open to foreigners, they usually want the characters to be using an American accent.

[In2You]

7 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Hollywood/US does more productions than occur in the UK or Australia.  There is also generally more money in US TV and film.  So actors from other countries might come here and put their hat in the audition ring because of the opportunities. They basically compete with actors from here and elsewhere and often audition using an American accent so TPTB don't always know they're seeing foreigners. Or they develop a following in their home country that might even become a sensation in the US.  That can be attractive to producers because they're both a proven commodity and a fresh face to US audiences. 

And while they're open to foreigners, they usually want the characters to be using an American accent.

I've noticed though that many of these actors are signed through their foreign agencies so I would think casting knows they are non American.  Before they even audition their agencies must submit them for the chance to audition. Most of the Australian actors seem to come from Australian  soaps operas and are no better than our American actors( so called classical training or not). And its bad enough American actors of color have a hard time getting roles compared to their white counterparts but they're also competing against foreign white actors and lately even foreign poc for American roles.

[DearEvette]

HBO and Alan Ball have a new show as yet untitled about a couple played by Holly Hunter and an as yet uncast actor for her husband who adopted children from Vietnam, Colombia and an American born child of Somalian parents and then had a child of their own later in life.  The adopted children -- they are adults when the show airs -- are played by Raymond Lee (American actor of Vietnamese descent), Daniel Zovatto (Latino actor from Costa Rica) and Jerrika Hinton (African American Actress) and the biological daughter is played by Sosie Bacon (Kyra Sedgwick and Kevin Bacon's daughter).

Looks interesting, I like family dramas and I like the descriptions of the characters.  The article is   Here

[Irlandesa]

37 minutes ago, In2You said:

I've noticed though that many of these actors are signed through their foreign agencies so I would think casting knows they are non American.

Sure, someone knows unless they're already here and using a US agency.  But I'm not sure that they would necessarily pass along that bit of info when they send candidates to the people who make the final decisions.  There's the famous story of the director of House saying he only wanted to see American actors for the role of House. Hugh Laurie ended up getting an audition tape in front of him anyway and Singer hired him thinking he was American.

43 minutes ago, In2You said:

Most of the Australian actors seem to come from Australian  soaps operas and are no better than our American actors( so called classical training or not).

Right.  And I wasn't arguing that they're getting these roles because they're better than American actors.  They enter the audition pool and perceived talent, charisma, looks...etc. all those subjective intangibles enter into the process. I was just suggesting that casting people from other countries isn't always about a desire to cast from other countries but rather the result of people other countries auditioning to work here and beating out actors sometimes and losing to more actors the other times.

And I'm going to leave it here because my response really wasn't about diversity.  (I even forgot what thread I was in.) 

[Silver Raven]

The new "Riverdale" series, a dark drama based on the Archie comics, of all things, has hired a half-Maori actor from New Zealand to play red-haired Archie.  I just read that he has to dye his hair red every two weeks.

Josie of Josie and the Pussycats is African-American (the character of her mother is played by Robin Givens: she is the mayor of Riverdale).  Veronica and Veronica's mother are Hispanic.

Archie's parents are Molly Ringwald and Luke Perry.

[callie lee 29]

I always loved Archie comics. My 41 year old self is very excited.

[In2You]

All members of Josie and the Pussycats are black in Riverdale.  

[Neurochick]

20 hours ago, In2You said:

Most of the Australian actors seem to come from Australian  soaps operas and are no better than our American actors( so called classical training or not). And its bad enough American actors of color have a hard time getting roles compared to their white counterparts but they're also competing against foreign white actors and lately even foreign poc for American roles.

Why do you think that's true, if it's not that the actors are better trained.  

As far as Canadians playing Americans, isn't it true that many American productions film in Canada because it's cheaper?  Maybe that's why there are so many Canadian actors playing Americans.  

[Constantinople]

21 hours ago, In2You said:

And its bad enough American actors of color have a hard time getting roles compared to their white counterparts but they're also competing against foreign white actors and lately even foreign poc for American roles.

David Harewood, who played CIA Director David Estes on Homeland, wrote an article a couple of years ago in the Guardian

Black Actors Star In US Shows. Why Is British TV Different?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/26/black-actors-british-television-david-harewood-homeland

In a nutshell, the US is far from perfect, but there are more opportunities for British black actors in the US than the UK.

[memememe76]

With Canadian shows that are funded by the government, I am assuming there are requirements that a certain percentage of the cast and crew is Canadian. I mean, Degrassi consists of only Ontario actors, not even from other provinces. 

[Trini]

'Handmaid's Tale Series EP Explains Removal of White Supremacy Element'

[angora]

Fantastic article.  I love that he's considered this from so many angles - representation, television vs. print as a medium, in-story reasoning that fertility would trump racism.  This was my favorite part:

Quote

“Also, honestly,” he adds, “what’s the difference between making a TV show about racists and making a racist TV show? Why would we be covering [the story of handmaid Offred, played by Mad Men‘s Elisabeth Moss], rather than telling the story of the people of color who got sent off to Nebraska?”

Not to mention, we're talking about Samira Wiley here!  Anyone who has the opportunity to employ her should take it.

[jhlipton]

Thanks for the info on Mildred Loving.  I only saw her photos and to me, she looks more like Viola Davis than Ruth Negga.

Just now, Constantinople said:

In a nutshell, the US is far from perfect, but there are more opportunities for British black actors in the US than the UK.

And yet British TV cast a black woman as the White Ghost (Angel Coulby as "Guinevere Pendragon" on Merlin).  Of course, that's just a single instance, but I loved it (and her).

[Neurochick]

I just finished watching season one of The Expanse, and I loved it.  (binged it in 5 days)  I only have one complaint and it's not just about that show but many TV shows.  

The casting of The Expanse is diverse but I noticed that they have cast black men who look very unambiguous, they look black.  But when a black woman is cast, too many times she's racially ambiguous; in other words, it's okay for a black man to be the complexion of Viola Davis but it's rare that a black woman (save Viola Davis) is Ms. Davis' complexion.

One more thing regarding The Expanse; I wonder if the casting directors were fans of "28 Days Later" because Naomi Nagata in the show reminded me a lot of Naomi Harris' character, Selena, in "28 Days Later."

Edited January 8, 2017 by Neurochick

[jhlipton]

Just now, Neurochick said:

{T}hey have cast black men who look very unambiguous, they look black.  But when a black woman is cast, too many times she's racially ambiguous; in other words, it's okay for a black man to be the complexion of Viola Davis but it's rare that a black woman (save Viola Davis) is Ms. Davis' complexion.

This is the kind of "colorism" that bothers me and it permeates all of Hollywood.  What's sad is that most of my friends are liberal, but can't see the problem.  "Mixed people face racism too" [true enough] so somehow that makes discrimination against blacks OK.

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

This is the kind of "colorism" that bothers me and it permeates all of Hollywood.  What's sad is that most of my friends are liberal, but can't see the problem.  "Mixed people face racism too" [true enough] so somehow that makes discrimination against blacks OK.

That's because that type of colorism is rooted in sexism.  In many movies and TV shows, women are cast based on "fuckability," not all women but some.  The ugliness of this type of colorism is a suggestion that maybe some casting directors/producers/showrunners have, that darker skinned black women aren't "fuckable."  Now, everybody has their opinion as who is and isn't attractive.  The problem is that those who have money and power are able to create a standard so people never ask themselves, "why do I think this person is more beautiful than that person?"  No one is supposed to question the standard.  

I really like the character of Naomi in "The Expanse."  I don't think she's that racially ambiguous because if I saw her in the street, I wouldn't think her anything other than black (and BTW, I know the actress is half Dominican, but Dominican is a nationality and the Dominican Republic did have slaves at one time).  What I like about her character is that she's not a superwoman, she's smart but she can't do everything and sometimes has to rely on other characters which isn't a bad thing IMO.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Neurochick

[jhlipton]

Just now, Neurochick said:

That's because that type of colorism is rooted in sexism.  In many movies and TV shows, women are cast based on "fuckability," not all women but some.  The ugliness of this type of colorism is a suggestion that maybe some casting directors/producers/showrunners have that darker skinned black women aren't "fuckable."  Now, everybody has their opinion as who is and isn't attractive.  The problem is that those who have money and power are able to create a standard so people never ask themselves, "why do I think this person is more beautiful than that person?"  No one is supposed to question the standard. 

I wish I could like this a thousand times.

[topanga]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

The casting of The Expanse is diverse but I noticed that they have cast black men who look very unambiguous, they look black.  But when a black woman is cast, too many times she's racially ambiguous; in other words, it's okay for a black man to be the complexion of Viola Davis but it's rare that a black woman (save Viola Davis) is Ms. Davis' complexion.

This. And when a brown-skinned actress is cast on a show, her beauty or desirability are often diminished or not even mentioned. e.g. Nicole Beharie was friggin gorgeous as Abbie Mills on Sleepy Hollow, and yes she did have male admirers, but I don't remember anyone calling her pretty or beautiful, even when she was all kinds of hot when she dressed up like Beyonce for Halloween. Contrast this to the constant declaration of Katrina's "pale beauty" and men constantly gawking over her corseted bosom.   

Or Saved By the Bell! Lisa (Lark Voorhees) was as beautiful, if not more so, than her two white friends, but they were considered the hot ones. And she was what? Not talked about at all as a desirable female. She was just Lisa. Even when Zack kissed her, I don't think it was ever talked about in later episodes. How ironic is it that MPG is in love with a woman of color on his current show "Pitch"? However, though Kylie Bunbury is clearly a woman of color, she also has long, loosely curly hair and looks racially ambiguous. So there you go. 

[Neurochick]

6 minutes ago, topanga said:

Or Saved By the Bell! Lisa (Lark Voorhees) was as beautiful, if not more so, than her two white friends, but they were considered the hot ones. And she was what? Not talked about at all as a desirable female. She was just Lisa. Even when Zack kissed her, I don't think it was ever talked about in later episodes. How ironic is it that MPG is in love with a woman of color on his current show "Pitch"? However, though Kylie Bunbury is clearly a woman of color, she also has long, loosely curly hair and looks racially ambiguous. So there you go. 

IMO, I don't think Burnbury looks any more racially ambiguous than Voorhees.  But your paragraph does bring up an interesting point, and it was the issue with Sleepy Hollow and that is comparison. When you have a black and white women in a show together, the white woman is usually "the hot one."  That happened to Voorhees and Beharie both of them were pitted against white women.  However Burnbury is not; she is the star, the center of the show; if she's gone there is no show.  But Sleepy Hollow was more about Craine than Abbie and Saved By The Bell wasn't about Lark Voorhees' character.  

And that goes back to my point; the one who has the power is the one who creates the standard.  In Sleepy Hollow, the showrunner decided that Katrina was the hot one, while Abbie wasn't.  That might have been his personal opinion, which he has a right to, however his opinion screwed up the show IMO because he allowed his opinion to change what the show was about.  And that is where bias becomes problematic.  I feel that the showrunner for Sleepy Hollow could have created something like a web series all about Katrina and everybody would have been okay with that.

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

That's because that type of colorism is rooted in sexism.  In many movies and TV shows, women are cast based on "fuckability," not all women but some.  The ugliness of this type of colorism is a suggestion that maybe some casting directors/producers/showrunners have, that darker skinned black women aren't "fuckable."  Now, everybody has their opinion as who is and isn't attractive.  The problem is that those who have money and power are able to create a standard so people never ask themselves, "why do I think this person is more beautiful than that person?"  No one is supposed to question the standard.  

I really like the character of Naomi in "The Expanse."  I don't think she's that racially ambiguous because if I saw her in the street, I wouldn't think her anything other than black (and BTW, I know the actress is half Dominican, but Dominican is a nationality and the Dominican Republic did have slaves at one time).  What I like about her character is that she's not a superwoman, she's smart but she can't do everything and sometimes has to rely on other characters which isn't a bad thing IMO.

I agree that you're far more likely to see lighter skinned women because execs find them more attractive. At the end of the day, most of TV and movies still have decision chains that have straight white men at the top. Their tastes will always define the end product, to some degree. 

As well as the darkness of the skin, I think there's also an element regarding physical features. Because the stereotypical West African physical attributes (which are more likely to be seen in Western countries now, due to the historical slave trade) generally don't fit the Western ideal of female beauty.

Africa itself obviously has huge variation, but in countries like Nigeria, Cote d'Ivoire and Liberia, the genetics tend towards physically powerful, thick limbed and round featured people (just look at where 99% of the world's best sprinters originally herald from). Something which works in the West if you're a man (hence the black actors) but not so well if you're a woman. When you've got a thousand movies, adverts, magazines, TV shows, music videos telling you what beautiful means, it's hard to get your head outside that box.

40 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

 

And that goes back to my point; the one who has the power is the one who creates the standard.  In Sleepy Hollow, the showrunner decided that Katrina was the hot one, while Abbie wasn't.  That might have been his personal opinion, which he has a right to, however his opinion screwed up the show IMO because he allowed his opinion to change what the show was about.  And that is where bias becomes problematic.  I feel that the showrunner for Sleepy Hollow could have created something like a web series all about Katrina and everybody would have been okay with that.

Well I feel bad for that guy, then. Nicole Beharie is one of the  hottest women I've seen on TV in years. Physically and in her personality, her playfulness and wit. Yes, the woman playing Katrina was beautiful, but I never found her particularly interesting, and not remotely captivating.

[Silver Raven]

Days of Our Lives is recasting the character of Jade.  The character's father is black, her aunt is black, we have never seen her mother.  The original actress is actually part Mexican.  The new actress is a stereotypical blonde model (there are tons of shots of her doing lingerie and underwear ads all over the Internet).  It's going to be interesting to see how they deal with this.

[Dee]

The accusations of colorism in media are interesting.

Empire received a lot of unfair flack about its "supposed" colorism problem; while shows with just as many, if not more, issues with colorism, like Black-ish, Greenleaf and Queen Sugar essentially skated.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Dee

[In2You]

1 hour ago, Silver Raven said:

Days of Our Lives is recasting the character of Jade.  The character's father is black, her aunt is black, we have never seen her mother.  The original actress is actually part Mexican.  The new actress is a stereotypical blonde model (there are tons of shots of her doing lingerie and underwear ads all over the Internet).  It's going to be interesting to see how they deal with this.

Days does that stuff all the time. Notice how they often cast latinos with white actors and always use a character being half  white to choose a white actor.

[Irlandesa]

52 minutes ago, Dee said:

Empire received a lot of unfair flack about its "supposed" colorism problem; while shows with just as many, if not more, issues with colorism, like Black-ish, Greenleaf and Queen Sugar essentially skated.

Could you expand more a bit on the colorism problem in Black-ish and Queen Sugar?  I don't watch Greeleaf so I can't speak to that. 

I think what happens on Queen Sugar is purposeful but maybe what I'm thinking of isn't what you're critiquing.

[In2You]

58 minutes ago, Dee said:

The accusations of colorism in media are interesting.

Empire received a lot of unfair flack about its "supposed" colorism problem; while shows with just as many, if not more, issues with colorism, like Black-ish, Greenleaf and Queen Sugar essentially skated.

What color ism issues in Queen Sugar?  People keep saying Nova gets less airtime but it's Charlie's story.  The book was about Charlie and Nova was created for the show. 

[jhlipton]

13 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Could you expand more a bit on the colorism problem in Black-ish and Queen Sugar?  I don't watch Greeleaf so I can't speak to that. 

I think what happens on Queen Sugar is purposeful but maybe what I'm thinking of isn't what you're critiquing.

Also expand on Greenleaf if you could.  I didn't see Queen Sugar and only three episodes are available on demand.

[Dee]

With black-ish, Andre & Rainbow's entire extended family (save a couple of "ghetto" cousins and a recently introduced great aunt) is/are lightskinned, the darkest of their four children (Diane) is the unequivocal "problem" child, Andre's lightskinned sister (Rhonda) is perfectly ok with her family not acknowledging her brown skinned girlfriend (Sharon) as her partner, the repeated abuse of the dark skinned son (Eustace) of one Dre's co-workers (Charlie) is treated as a running joke, Dre's talented darkskinned childhood friend (Sha) is portrayed like a disgusting boorish mooch while Rainbow's brother is portrayed as a cultured free thinker.

The most rich, famous and well adjusted of the three Bordelon sibs is lightskinned (Charley), Charley's basketball wife girlfriends (Lena) are lightskinned, both Charley's husband & potential new man are lightskinned (Davis/Remy), the two darkskinned Bordelon sibs (Nova & Ralph Angel) are ex-con's and/or involved in various criminal activities, the troubled kid (Two Sweet) the darkerskinned sister (Nova) does everything in her power to save is darkskinned as are her drug dealing friends (Rid), the darkerskinned sister (Nova) is shamed for her affair while her lightskinned sister's (Charley) affair is romanticized & given a free pass, the darkerskinned sister (Nova) is "punished" for her interracial relationship with a white cop (Calvin) while her lightskinned sister is "rewarded" (Charley) with a seemingly perfect new suitor (Remy), the darkerskinned sister's (Nova) secondary love interest (Chantal) is lightskinned, Charley & Davis lightskinned son (Micah) is portrayed as a ridiculously naive kid in thrall to his new sassy darkskinned love interest (Keke) that his lightskinned mother isn't all that enthused about, the lightskinned (Charley) sister is positioned as the darkskinned Bordelon father's (Ernest) favorite, the child & baby mother (Blue/Darla) of the darkskinned Bordelon son (Ralph Angel) are both lightskinned, Davis lightskinned teammate (Felix) is given a virtual free pass for raping a woman.

And that's just off the top of my head.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Dee

[Dee]

12 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Also expand on Greenleaf if you could.  I didn't see Queen Sugar and only three episodes are available on demand.

The preternaturally gifted savior of the Greenleaf family is lightskinned (Grace), Grace's lightskinned biracial daughter (Sophia) is portrayed as an unfailingly naive angel to her darkskinned trouble making cousin (Zora), Grace's darkskinned rival (Isabel) for her ex-boyfriend's (Noah) affections is portrayed as a desperate headcase, Grace's childless bar owning darkskinned aunt (Mavis) is portrayed as a corrupting influence on the family while her lighter skinned sister (Mae) is portrayed as the beloved First Lady of the family's church, the remaining living Greenleaf siblings are altogether dismissed as a juvenile joke by the entire family (Charity) or perpetually stuck in loveless marriage (Jacob) with his darkskinned shrew of a wife (Kerissa) while carrying on an interracial affair with his white mistress/co-worker (Alexa), the church's new darkskinned gay choir director (Carlton) is treated as a problem while Charity's closeted lighter skinned husband (Kevin) is portrayed as highly sympathetic.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Dee

[In2You]

1 hour ago, Dee said:

The preternaturally gifted savior of the Greenleaf family is lightskinned (Grace), Grace's lightskinned biracial daughter (Sophia) is portrayed as an unfailingly naive angel to her darkerskinned trouble making cousin (Zora), Grace's darkskinned rival (Isabel) for her ex-boyfriend's (Noah) affections is portrayed as a desperate headcase, Grace's childless bar owning darkerskinned aunt (Mavis) is portrayed as a corrupting influence on the family while her lighter skinned sister (Mae) is portrayed as the beloved First Lady of the family's church, the remaining living Greenleaf siblings are altogether dismissed as a juvenile joke by the entire family (Charity) or perpetually stuck in loveless marriage (Jacob) with a darkerskinned shrew (Kerissa) while carrying on an interracial affair with a white co-worker (Alexa), the church's new darkskinned gay choir director (Carlton) is treated as a problem while Charity's closeted lighter skinned husband (Kevin) is portrayed as highly sympathetic.

I watched all of Greenleaf and don't agree with your assessments at all. Yes Zora was originally looked at as a problem kid however it was revealed that pervy uncle tried to push up on her therefore making her sympathetic. How was Mabel portrayed as corrupt? She was seen as one of the few with sense. Mae was the one portrayed as corrupt and covering for her sick brother. Though she tried to put on airs to paint an image of herself as holier than thou but that's just how First ladys are. Jacob's affair was only a couple of episodes and they tried to make him sympathetic after that and we were suppposed to feel for that hoe just cuz he's sexy. Now Charity I agree they just brushed her off. There's no choir director vs Charity's husband. The choir director was  just a plot point to show how Charity is so excepting to this man but blinded by her down low husband. 

[Silver Raven]

Trump is tweeting tonight complaining that there is actually a show called "Blackish".  He calls it racist.

[Apprentice79]

9 hours ago, Neurochick said:

That's because that type of colorism is rooted in sexism.  In many movies and TV shows, women are cast based on "fuckability," not all women but some.  The ugliness of this type of colorism is a suggestion that maybe some casting directors/producers/showrunners have, that darker skinned black women aren't "fuckable."  Now, everybody has their opinion as who is and isn't attractive.  The problem is that those who have money and power are able to create a standard so people never ask themselves, "why do I think this person is more beautiful than that person?"  No one is supposed to question the standard.  

I really like the character of Naomi in "The Expanse."  I don't think she's that racially ambiguous because if I saw her in the street, I wouldn't think her anything other than black (and BTW, I know the actress is half Dominican, but Dominican is a nationality and the Dominican Republic did have slaves at one time).  What I like about her character is that she's not a superwoman, she's smart but she can't do everything and sometimes has to rely on other characters which isn't a bad thing IMO.

People often forget that Light-skinned Black men, are often, in the same boat, as dark-skinned Black Women, in Hollywood.  They often lose out, to dark skinned Black men, for roles, because they  are often viewed, as not being, Black enough.  

Dominicans are of African descent.  Most of the Africans, that were brought to the New world, as slaves, were shipped to Latin America.  African culture permeates Latin America.  Not to mention, that, it was the Spaniards and the Portuguese, who created the odious slave trade and everybody followed suit.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Apprentice79

[selkie]

On 1/7/2017 at 8:37 PM, memememe76 said:

With Canadian shows that are funded by the government, I am assuming there are requirements that a certain percentage of the cast and crew is Canadian. I mean, Degrassi consists of only Ontario actors, not even from other provinces. 

I remember a panel with a couple of production people for Highlander back in the 90s, and if you wanted to max out on the Canadian tax credits, you maxed out on the Can con both actors and production staff. Since they were a syndicated show with a really small budget, they'd end up doing things like writing a script in house with 2-3 American employees, paying a Canadian scriptwriter to do a token number of lines, and then giving them writing credit for the episode because they got a ton of tax credit 'points' for hiring a Canadian for what was seen as a higher level production job even though 85% of the script was actually written by an American woman who was classified as the office secretary, whose position flew under the radar for tax credit calculation purposes.

[Raja]

9 hours ago, selkie said:

I remember a panel with a couple of production people for Highlander back in the 90s, and if you wanted to max out on the Canadian tax credits, you maxed out on the Can con both actors and production staff. Since they were a syndicated show with a really small budget, they'd end up doing things like writing a script in house with 2-3 American employees, paying a Canadian scriptwriter to do a token number of lines, and then giving them writing credit for the episode because they got a ton of tax credit 'points' for hiring a Canadian for what was seen as a higher level production job even though 85% of the script was actually written by an American woman who was classified as the office secretary, whose position flew under the radar for tax credit calculation purposes.

The Canadian content was said to be the basis for The Great White North sketch on SCTV. Somewhere along the line the Canadians decide to try to hide their Canadianism and pass their shows off to the Americans with their ten times larger population and advertising base.

[Neurochick]

15 hours ago, Dee said:

The preternaturally gifted savior of the Greenleaf family is lightskinned (Grace), Grace's lightskinned biracial daughter (Sophia) is portrayed as an unfailingly naive angel to her darkskinned trouble making cousin (Zora), Grace's darkskinned rival (Isabel) for her ex-boyfriend's (Noah) affections is portrayed as a desperate headcase, Grace's childless bar owning darkskinned aunt (Mavis) is portrayed as a corrupting influence on the family while her lighter skinned sister (Mae) is portrayed as the beloved First Lady of the family's church, the remaining living Greenleaf siblings are altogether dismissed as a juvenile joke by the entire family (Charity) or perpetually stuck in loveless marriage (Jacob) with his darkskinned shrew of a wife (Kerissa) while carrying on an interracial affair with his white mistress/co-worker (Alexa), the church's new darkskinned gay choir director (Carlton) is treated as a problem while Charity's closeted lighter skinned husband (Kevin) is portrayed as highly sympathetic.

My question to you Dee, is why you described Mavis as being "childless?"  Do you think there is something wrong with a woman who doesn't have children?  Why not describe her as a business owner?  I don't get why people think that a woman isn't a woman unless she has a man and kids.  IMO that attitude went out with the last century.  Also Mae wasn't all that beloved, especially by the end of the series, when we realized she was covering for her child molesting brother. 

Kerissa was NOT a shrew, maybe in the beginning she seemed that way, but as the series continued, you saw her POV very clearly.

I never saw Isabel as a desperate headcase.  Why was she desperate?  Grace was the desperate one.  The relationship of Grace and Noah only existed in their minds.  Once they actually were together, both of them realized they never had proper closure of their relationship. 

Carlton wasn't a problem because he had dark skin, he was a problem because he'd sued his former employer.  Kevin was NOT portrayed as sympathetic at all, if anything Charity was more sympathetic because she was the one being deceived. 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Neurochick

[Dee]

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My question to you Dee, is why you described Mavis as being "childless?"  Do you think there is something wrong with a woman who doesn't have children?  Why not describe her as a business owner?  I don't get why people think that a woman isn't a woman unless she has a man and kids.  IMO that attitude went out with the last century.  Also Mae wasn't all that beloved, especially by the end of the series, when we realized she was covering for her child molesting brother. 

Me describing Mavis as childless has nothing to do with how I view her as much as how the show does. It's one of the first things Mae throws in her face when she confronts her sister toward the end of the season. That added to the fact that Greenleaf (outside of Faith) allows Mae to skate about being a bad mother (despite the fact that a huge swath of the Greenleafs longtime friends & co-workers learn about the depths of Mac's perverted deviancy over the course of the season) while dropping Mavis subplot about the young kid she mentors that works for her, after one episode, clearly delineated to me who the show feels is worth investing in.

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Kerissa was NOT a shrew, maybe in the beginning she seemed that way, but as the series continued, you saw her POV very clearly.

Again, I'm speaking strictly from Jacob's point of view.

For the whole first half of the season Kerissa is portrayed as a shrew who cares more about cementing she and Jacob's place in the family's hierarchy than she does about having a successful marriage. The show tries to do a quick course correction for she and Jacob as a couple in the second half of the season that falls quite flat due to really bad writing (as we've discussed at length in the Greenleaf forums).

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I never saw Isabel as a desperate headcase.  Why was she desperate?  Grace was the desperate one.  The relationship of Grace and Noah only existed in their minds.  Once they actually were together, both of them realized they never had proper closure of their relationship. 

Isabel is worried about Grace from the moment Grace arrives for Faith's funeral. She spends the entire season making barbed comments to Grace and going in circles with Noah, who vociferously denies his feelings for Grace.

When she pieces together what happened between Noah & Grace from the context clues they drop after she confronts them, Isabel is so upset she leaves town to give their relationship a break, telling Noah not to contact her. However, as soon as she returns to town, she's immediately consummates her relationship with Noah despite her previously strict limits about their pre-marital sexual encounters?

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Carlton wasn't a problem because he had dark skin, he was a problem because he'd sued his former employer.  Kevin was NOT portrayed as sympathetic at all, if anything Charity was more sympathetic because she was the one being deceived. 

I meant Carlton's sexual orientation is presented (outside of his relationship to Charity) as a problematic liability for the church despite him being talented, personable and outgoing, while Kevin is portrayed as a beloved member of the family and larger church community who is majorly confused & wrestling with feelings he isn't sure how to deal while also genuinely having feelings for Charity.

Now granted, Carlton is recurring character and Kevin is a series regular, but outside of Charity, no one (besides Mae briefly) confronts Kevin about his marital issues (despite the fact that he's sleeping on the couch in their football stadium sized mansion) while Carlton is universally viewed as a personal and professional pariah by Mac and the church parishioners.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Dee

[DearEvette]

Although not explicitly stated in the first season of Queen Sugar, I think Charley being lighter skinned is a very deliberate decision.  We know she had a different mother than Nova and RA.  Also that her father left their mother for Charley's mother and came back to Nova & RA's mother.  You also get the impression that her mother has or came from money.  So I think QS is actually playing to the trope, not just blindly falling into it through pretty casting.  My sense is that Charley's status in relation to Nova and RA is definitely tied to colorism and that is something that will be further explored.

But I also would not necessarily qualify Charley as well adjusted.  Not any more than Nova who is an activist, journalist and well respected in the community and her  weed-dealing ways isn't just run-of-the-mill criminality but a modern day manifestation of the voodoo queen who was often seen as a community wise woman who administered spiritual and physical healing through potions, powders,  and gris-gris etc.  There are quite a few scenes of Nova acting in this capacity.  As far as desirability is concerned when it comes to skin tone, I think QS subverts that as well.  The very first scene shows Nova, her skin blue-dark, being worshiped by her lover, the same man who leaves his white wife for her.  Meanwhile Charley's husband cheats on her with a hooker he has on speed dial and facilitates her rape.  And even in that storyline the show makes a smart observation about colorism when Charley speaks to the lawyer:

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Estelle: Davis is a rich, black man accused of raping a white woman.
Charley: Malina's not white.
Estelle: But she's not black, so she will be white by the time the press gets through her.

And finally, RA being a felon isn't just a fall back on a black man in jail, but again a deliberate choice by Ava Duvernay, imo.  She is incredibly passionate about prison reform.  The entire show has a palpable social justice vibe.  It hits on a lot of things, migrant workers, sex workers, the prison system, rehabilitation, drug addiction.  I think some of things being included in the show are done by design not just a fall back to old stereotypes.

[Neurochick]

19 hours ago, Dee said:

the darkerskinned sister (Nova) is "punished" for her interracial relationship with a white cop

I didn't see her being punished for being dark skinned, or punished because her boyfriend was white.  The scene where she is spat upon happens because of the article she wrote.  When her boyfriend's co-worker met her, at first he was all "wow, she's hot," until she told him, her name and then he switched.  So her being dark skinned didn't cause that.

[Dee]

See, I viewed it as Nova being punished because both her relationships she emerges as the loser in her relationships while Charley, for better or worse, triumphs.

Davis does quite a bit of damage, personally and professionally, to Charley; but she manages to rebound & still comes out on top in that relationship. And Remy is a virtual Prince Charming, who only walks away from his interest in Charley once Charley makes it clear she's still involved with her ex.

At the end of the season Charley has her ex pining for her, her new man still fairly interested and is planning a mill that has the potential to revitalize the fortunes of St. Joe's black farmers.

Whereas Nova, at the end of the season, is left sitting alone in the dark; having been spat on and sexually assaulted by a colleague of her boyfriend's. A boyfriend who is still not divorced from his wife and who took months to get charges dropped against Two Sweet so the latter, who he knew she was fiercely committed to, could go free. And all this is after her other lover, Chantal, blithely reads Nova the riot act and questions Nova's entire self worth prior to leaving her in the dust.

[Dee]

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Although not explicitly stated in the first season of Queen Sugar, I think Charley being lighter skinned is a very deliberate decision.  We know she had a different mother than Nova and RA.  Also that her father left their mother for Charley's mother and came back to Nova & RA's mother.  You also get the impression that her mother has or came from money.  So I think QS is actually playing to the trope, not just blindly falling into it through pretty casting.  My sense is that Charley's status in relation to Nova and RA is definitely tied to colorism and that is something that will be further explored.

But why go the cliche route by casting Charley with a lightskinned actress in the first place? Nova and Charley would be just as interesting, with Rutina & Dawn (who are both great actresses), cast in each others roles imo. There's no rule that says one has to explicitly cater to existing tropes to explore colorism. Especially since it plays so little, as an onscreen issue, throughout the season.

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But I also would not necessarily qualify Charley as well adjusted.  Not any more than Nova who is an activist, journalist and well respected in the community and her  weed-dealing ways isn't just run-of-the-mill criminality but a modern day manifestation of the voodoo queen who was often seen as a community wise woman who administered spiritual and physical healing through potions, powders,  and gris-gris etc.  There are quite a few scenes of Nova acting in this capacity.  As far as desirability is concerned when it comes to skin tone, I think QS subverts that as well.  The very first scene shows Nova, her skin blue-dark, being worshiped by her lover, the same man who leaves his white wife for her.  Meanwhile Charley's husband cheats on her with a hooker he has on speed dial and facilitates her rape.  And even in that storyline the show makes a smart observation about colorism when Charley speaks to the lawyer:

I'd qualify Charley as well adjusted, especially prior to the Davis situation imploding. Partially because the writers wanted to contrast & maximize the potential story fallout of the before and after of the team's scandal and partially because it gave the writers a fairly logical reason to hurriedly shift Charley and Micah back to St. Joe on a more permanent basis.

I don't know if I'd consider Nova well adjusted. I consider her a loner who functions better operating on her own terms than working as part of a team.

Her relationship with Calvin takes place in occasional stolen moments and her communal work is filtered through the lens of petty crime.  To the point where her sister frowns up her influence with Micah, and she is eventually treated to some cruel karma when she realizes that her well meaning but less than ethical lifestyle is what landed Two Sweet in jail in the first place.

I do think the show does a good job of temporary subverting colorism by having Calvin adore her in the show's opening scenes. But since he disappears after the first couple of episodes and Nova spends the majority of the rest of the season dealing with emotionally fraught matters, has me viewing their interaction as a fluke instead of a pattern imo.

Point duly taken about Charley's interaction with the lawyer though.

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And finally, RA being a felon isn't just a fall back on a black man in jail, but again a deliberate choice by Ava Duvernay, imo.  She is incredibly passionate about prison reform.  The entire show has a palpable social justice vibe.  It hits on a lot of things, migrant workers, sex workers, the prison system, rehabilitation, drug addiction.  I think some of things being included in the show are done by design not just a fall back to old stereotypes.

My problem with RA is the show is all tell and no show with him. There's only one instance in the entire season when he genuinely apologizes to anyone for anything. The rest of his time is spent alternating between throwing tantrums because people won't trust him then hiding from them when they do & inevitably screws up.

Seriously, the show makes a huge deal all season about how much he knows about farming yet he can't pick out molded sugarcane from healthy sugarcane?

There literally isn't one instance where RA thinks beyond his own selfish needs to consider someone else's well being (except Darla, because they're having sex) & the QS just expects viewers to empathize with the character even though the writers haven't given viewers a reasonable understanding of why they should imo.

I know Ava likes to incorporate social themes into her writing but if she can't fit them properly to the story, then she'd do better to ditch them altogether.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Dee

[Neurochick]

The thing about Queen Sugar is that I found the darker skinned characters more interesting and more layered than the lighter skinned ones.  I liked Nova better than Charley, I liked neither RA nor Darla and I liked both Hollywood and Vi. 

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, Dee said:

But why go the cliche route by casting Charley with a lightskinned actress in the first place? Nova and Charley would be just as interesting, with Rutina & Dawn (who are both great actresses), cast in each others roles imo. There's no rule that says one has to explicitly cater to existing tropes to explore colorism.

That is true and would be a fascinating look at flipping the script sorta like the film Something New where in the interracial relationship had the BW in the role of the upper class person with the money while her white male love interest was blue collar and out if place in her more high society world.

But I also see that if she is going to explore the issue of colorism  in an honest way, that is needs to be done under the rules that currently exist. Basically in the way that we are discussing it now as inherently problematic with advantages tilted toward the lighter skinned. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

There's been speculation that Charley is biologically related to the White family that owns all the surrounding farmland and the mills. It would be through her as-yet-unseen mother who may also be White or biracial. If the show's going to head down that road, it probably makes sense for Charley to be light-skinned.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Joimiaroxeu

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

There's been speculation that Charley is biologically related to the White family that owns all the surrounding farmland and the mills. It would be through her as-yet-unseen mother who may also be White or biracial. If the show's going to head down that road, it probably makes sense for Charley to be light-skinned.

Maybe.  But why is it, in TV programs, that when there is a light skinned black person, they just HAVE to be biracial?  I've known countless lighter skinned black people (I am one of them) who aren't biracial.  If the show goes down that route with Charley, I might stop watching.  I find that very ignorant.  Just because a black person is light skinned, doesn't mean there is a white person in the previous or even two previous generations.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Neurochick

[Apprentice79]

11 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Maybe.  But why is it, in TV programs, that when there is a light skinned black person, they just HAVE to be biracial?  I've known countless lighter skinned black people (I am one of them) who aren't biracial.  If the show goes down that route with Charley, I might stop watching.  I find that very ignorant.  Just because a black person is light skinned, doesn't mean there is a white person in the previous or even two previous generations.

Exactly!  Hollywood is so ignorant about things like that.  

[Joimiaroxeu]

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But why is it, in TV programs, that when there is a light skinned black person, they just HAVE to be biracial? 

I don't think this necessarily true on TV (the Cosby show was good example and plenty of people complained about the skin tones of some of those kids at the time; none of their grandparents were White) but I take your point. Odds are though that you can't go back more than three or four generations without finding a White (or at least non-Black) ancestor on one or both sides of the given person's lineage. Charley's siblings are relatively dark-skinned so odds are the White/non-Black ancestor came from her mother's side somewhere back in the  generations.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Joimiaroxeu

[Dee]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

Maybe.  But why is it, in TV programs, that when there is a light skinned black person, they just HAVE to be biracial?  I've known countless lighter skinned black people (I am one of them) who aren't biracial.  If the show goes down that route with Charley, I might stop watching.  I find that very ignorant.  Just because a black person is light skinned, doesn't mean there is a white person in the previous or even two previous generations.

And why is it mandatory that biracial Black characters have to be constantly portrayed as lighter skinned in media?

For instance, Giancarlo Esposito & Jordan Peele are both biracial, but I'd doubt anyone would assume they were, if they didn't know otherwise.