Show Analysis: Dr Huang Will See You Now

[sockii]

For me Season 2 is my absolute favorite. I'm a Munch & Fin fan, first and foremost, so I loved the development of their partnership through that season especially (early conflicting points of view and then finally starting to really gel as partners by the time we get to "Manhunt"). Season 5 is actually probably my second favorite after that; it has a number of episodes I really love (Painless, Careless, Loss, Abomination) and while the plots are getting twistier, they still aren't at the ridiculous point yet and many are quite thought-provoking. Also, I liked the initial conflict and transition from Cabot to Novak (who is my favorite ADA, even if not part of my favorite era).

But overall seasons 1-5 are the golden years for me, where it really feels like the focus is more on the "squad" doing their job as a unit than the Elliot & Olivia will-they-won't-they drama hour (that begins as soon as Elliot announces he's separated.) By seasons 6 & 7 we're already seeing Fin and especially Munch pushed more into the background for the E/O drama, 8 was mostly ridiculous with Olivia being "undercover", and don't get me started on season 9 with Lake and the cast bloat of that year. 10-12 are mostly crack with a few sporadic highlights.

From the Leight years I only really enjoy and rewatch season 13; it was a refreshing restart, in a lot of ways, with some interesting cases again and the transition of bringing Amaro and Rollins into the unit. But even by 14 it starts really going downhill again for me and I find a lot of season 15-17 watch-once-and-done for me. I don't need Olivia's personal drama, hated the William Lewis torture hour, and (ducking and hiding) I still don't quite get the overwhelming fanaticism for Barba/Esparza that's taken over a huge chunk of the show's fandom. I like Barba ~okay~, but I still miss Novak and Cabot. Yes, I know that makes me a weirdo or something.

[Princess Sparkle]

I'm watching the episode Privilege, the one where a rich teenager (played by my childhood Disney crush Erik Von Detton) kills his girlfriend, and his grandmother in court blames it on his father, who she says took the kid to brothels and beat him. Then it comes out that it's actually the Grandmother who used to take him to brothels, and his father never hit him. There is nothing so satisfying as seeing the kid go down for murder, and that old bitch of his grandmother get arrested for conspiracy and obstruction of justice. I actually cheered when Elliot and Olivia arrested her. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Is it just me or did the show way too often set it up so that A.D.A. Casey Novak seemed to lose a lot when the defendant was a horrible, vile, violent guilty person, but, then when the defendant was sympathetic, justified or perhaps innocent, she gets incredible results.  I don't get it.  It's very frustrating. 

[WineCheeseChocolat]

Since I saw "Victims" myself lately, I was wondering something. Excuse my ignorance as a millennial, but in the end, the murderer/social worker said she was dying of AIDS. The episode aired in 2001 or 2002; how common was it for a highly compliant patient (which I assumed she would've been) to die so young. My understanding was that the death rates tapered in 1997/1998 and it was a chronic and manageable disease by the early 2000s. But she also mentioned she had been infected years prior...

[WendyCR72]

9 hours ago, WineCheeseChocolat said:

Since I saw "Victims" myself lately, I was wondering something. Excuse my ignorance as a millennial, but in the end, the murderer/social worker said she was dying of AIDS. The episode aired in 2001 or 2002; how common was it for a highly compliant patient (which I assumed she would've been) to die so young. My understanding was that the death rates tapered in 1997/1998 and it was a chronic and manageable disease by the early 2000s. But she also mentioned she had been infected years prior...

All I can figure is, as with anyone, each person's tolerance may be different. And if she was infected years prior, maybe she was on other less-effective protocols. True, HIV/AIDS isn't the instant death sentence it was in the 1980s/1990s, but I imagine  - again, depending on the drugs used and resistance to said protocols - that some still sadly don't make it.

[wknt3]

13 hours ago, WineCheeseChocolat said:

Since I saw "Victims" myself lately, I was wondering something. Excuse my ignorance as a millennial, but in the end, the murderer/social worker said she was dying of AIDS. The episode aired in 2001 or 2002; how common was it for a highly compliant patient (which I assumed she would've been) to die so young. My understanding was that the death rates tapered in 1997/1998 and it was a chronic and manageable disease by the early 2000s. But she also mentioned she had been infected years prior...

 

3 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

All I can figure is, as with anyone, each person's tolerance may be different. And if she was infected years prior, maybe she was on other less-effective protocols. True, HIV/AIDS isn't the instant death sentence it was in the 1980s/1990s, but I imagine  - again, depending on the drugs used and resistance to said protocols - that some still sadly don't make it.

You are both pretty much correct at least as far as I remember having done some editing and copywriting for an HIV treatment and prevention organization. I do not remember that particular episode, but yes people still die of the disease and died more often back then due to all sorts of factors. It was not the most common outcome, but also not unrealistic, especially given the other things going on in the show during those years. It may have been melodrama, it may have been a lack of keeping up with what was going on, or it may have been part of the awareness campaigns that were going on at the time, that this was still a serious and even deadly condition.

[katisha]

Watched 'Scavenger' again the other day and this time around I surprised myself by feeling a little more sympathetic towards the perp Humphrey Becker.  With a mother like he had, it was never going to be easy to grow up into a decent functioning human being.  Doesn't excuse his awful acts but puts them into perspective. Edit: Oh, wow, I just Googled the woman who played Humphrey's obnoxious mother and I had clue until now that she was Jerry Stiller's wife until she passed in 2015 and therefore Ben Stiller's mum!

Edited January 17, 2017 by katisha

[Snookums]

Quote

Jake Stanton, the ex-football player Treat Williams played in "Spiraling Down".

The actress who played his wife was also amazing. When she's telling Olivia about everything that's been happening, and how "our lawyer won't even return our calls, we owe him so much money," you can feel the exhaustion and pain of dealing with a problem that nobody around you will even acknowledge exists.

[Gigi43]

"Transgender Bridge" was on USA last night and I know Darius has been discussed but I have to bring it up again.  I'd almost forgotten how awful the other boys parents were too, their reactions were to immediately question why a boy was dressing as a girl and shift blame, yet even though it wasn't in Darius' best interest his mother went over and immediately  tried to apologize  the second she saw Avery and her family,  a move Darius did soon after.  "Making an example" out of some one goes against what the court system is suppose to be about, judging case by case without a bias. Darius should have faced sometning, especially some kind of community work with transgender of possible, he did harass and put his hamds on Avery so getting off scott free wouldn't have been justified, but that was way too harsh. 

 

The one time in recent memory SVU made both sides equally compelling it had to end in the worst ways. Avery was wonderful in her willingness to hear out Darius and his mom, which her parents understandingly were hesitant about and then they overcame their greif to act how Avery would have wanted when it would be understandable  if it had consumed them since I can't even fathom what losing a kid, and especially to blame  (as opposed to if it had been a diease and life/God were the only places to place your pain.)is like, there has to be temptation to want to let whoever did it get the hardest punishment possible  no matter what; I very well might have given in to that side unlike Avery'so parents. The Squad wasn't preaching one side, they wanted justice for Avery but knew -especially Finn- Darius wasnt getting a fair judgement. It's a hard one to still watch. 

Edited January 20, 2017 by Gigi43

[ari333]

Sometimes I get the eppys confused bw SVU and the CI

[WineCheeseChocolat]

Have you ever had deja vu when a current episode reminded you very much of a past one?

In the past five seasons, we've had three episodes of "angry, homocidal guy who hates all women because they don't pay enough attention to him." - S13 Hunting Ground, S16 Holden's Manifasto and the recent Next Chapter.

Also, three words. Blood on face. (And that's now happened three times since S15.)

All the times AngryAmaro was a mini version of UnStabler.

The token devout Catholic detective appeals to the messed up but not completely unredeemable bishop or whoever to turn in the evil molester during a church sex abuse scandal. (S3 Silence vs S17 Unholiest Alliance) But it was a lot more subtle and compelling with Stabler vs Carisi.

Benson's brother dramarama and Rollin's sister dramarama.

Greg Yates=William Lewis although the show acknowledged the similarities.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I've been getting Cassidy V1 vibes from Carisi. Innocent, somewhat clueless and liking a woman who has friendzoned (in one case, with benefits, in one case, without) them.

Liv gets Stalked! too many times to list.

Liv went undercover as a Madam twice - once in Undercover Mother and once in a Stabler-era episode  involving some girl they thought was a prostitute but was a child prodigy or something. 

Speaking of undercover work, Benson in a PTSD-induced haze after Harris doesn't want to tell the woman in S10 Smut she had been raped. After Lewis, Part 1, she makes THE EXACT SAME ARGUMENT for not telling the girl she had been raped in S15 Wonderland Story. Like, almost word-for-word. Also - awkward, inappropriate disclosures to the victims in both episodes.

What are your deja vu SVU moments?

Edited January 25, 2017 by WineCheeseChocolat

[ForeverAlone]

Season 3 episode, "Ridicule" and season 16 episode, "Parole Violations". Both dealt with men being raped by women. Sure, you can easily have more than one case about such an occurrence, but both episodes spent way too much time explaining that YES, men CAN be raped by women and the ADAs lamenting that no one in their office has ever tried a case like this before (which felt really unbelievable in season 16). At least Carisi was more supportive of the male victim than Elliott was of his (sure, family relations and all, but Carisi also doesn't seem to have the same masculinity issues that Elliott had at times). 

[skittl3862]

The following exchange:

"You're here already?"

"Word travels fast when police shoot a young black man."

Amaro's 180, Community Policing

Ironic because Tucker was on opposite sides of the exchange in each episode.

[WineCheeseChocolat]

Quote

Season 3 episode, "Ridicule" and season 16 episode, "Parole Violations". Both dealt with men being raped by women. Sure, you can easily have more than one case about such an occurrence, but both episodes spent way too much time explaining that YES, men CAN be raped by women and the ADAs lamenting that no one in their office has ever tried a case like this before (which felt really unbelievable in season 16). At least Carisi was more supportive of the male victim than Elliott was of his (sure, family relations and all, but Carisi also doesn't seem to have the same masculinity issues that Elliott had at times). 

It was depressing to see how little had changed in people's perceptions of female on male assault. On the bright side, the recent episodes with trans victims show a lot of change in the detective's attitude as opposed to S4 Fallacy where EVERYONE was being gross and transphobic, even Saint Benson.

[Gigglepuff]

I know this won't be a popular opinion, but the whole Noah storyline bugs me. It's completely unrealistic. People don't get to adopt a child because they "deserve" a child or because they want one. Tell me how there's wasn't a line-up a mile long of approved and qualified prospective adoptive families waiting to be matched? Especially those who are waiting for a child under two.  Are we really supposed to believe that Benson was the only person in the entire state that could have provided Noah with a home? I'm not at all opposed to Benson being a mother, but the way this played out was just stupid. 

[Calamity Jane]

On 1/9/2017 at 0:06 PM, WendyCR72 said:

All I can figure is, as with anyone, each person's tolerance may be different. And if she was infected years prior, maybe she was on other less-effective protocols. True, HIV/AIDS isn't the instant death sentence it was in the 1980s/1990s, but I imagine  - again, depending on the drugs used and resistance to said protocols - that some still sadly don't make it.

The course of any disease can vary a lot from patient to patient.  I remember my husband's doctor calling me from the hospital to say, "It's lymphoma!  I can melt that!  I can cure this!" only for him to pass away less than six months later.  I would imagine HIV is no different.  

[WendyCR72]

11 minutes ago, Calamity Jane said:

The course of any disease can vary a lot from patient to patient.  I remember my husband's doctor calling me from the hospital to say, "It's lymphoma!  I can melt that!  I can cure this!" only for him to pass away less than six months later.  I would imagine HIV is no different.  

Sorry for your loss, @Calamity Jane.

[Calamity Jane]

4 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Sorry for your loss, @Calamity Jane.

Aw, thank you.  It's been a long time now, but sometimes little moments like that come back.

[themightykazoo]

My most frustrating (besides Stabler leaving) was when Season 1 episode Closure faded to the notorious black Dick Wolf screen with the rapist going free and unpunished. When I saw this episode and did not know there was a part 2 and the rapist seems to get away with everything had me yelling at the TV. This drove me nuts for quite a while.

Edited February 5, 2017 by themightykazoo

[themightykazoo]

I am rewatching show now and so all of mine are from early seasons.

I too felt for Robin Williams before the crazy ending. You forget while watching that he had multiple teenage girls set up to be basically raped because he wanted someone to question orders. During the trial scene it kinda loses its focus on his having these girls attacked and you forget about it with everything going on with his dead wife and unborn child. I guess I feel bad for what drove him there but his actions are just evil.

Like Bastet posted I also felt bad for the "maybe" handicapped perp from season 1 "third guy" who raped the old woman. It is left open if he knew what he had done was wrong. It was absolutely disgusting and an appalling crime but did he have any knowledge of that and was he responsible for his actions? The ending of him in that mental hospital surrounded by people much less "there" than him and him saying no no over and over again much like his victim no doubt said to him was chilling. This one has stuck with me because of the horrible fate of everyone but one 17 year old who broke into and tied up the old woman and than was released and received no consequence. They even mention he was responsible for her having a heart attack that set her up for the second heart attack she received while being raped that killed her. He got off scot free while everyone else suffered horrible fates.

The kid in the season 2 episode who shoots his classmate accidently and is than murdered because of his race at the end. He did nothing wrong.

I felt for Russel? in the hotel episode of season 2. Deliberatly placed in a situation by the SVU squad to be raped and murdered. SVU squad even says they hope he is never able to sit again when he is released. He had sex with girlfriend who was 15 and then had sex with a woman who set him up to look like a rape. He did nothing and was raped and murdered in prison.

There was another season one episode where a religious college ran by a father and son both sharing the same name where the father was sleeping with and impregnated his son's wife was also one where the perp was sympathetic but did not justify him murdering his wife like that.

In an above post Harper Anderson is named as Tess Harper. This is not her character's name.

In Season 2. Closure part 2, Harper Anderson kinda is becoming the perp at the end of the episode and she is very sympathetic. She kills the serial rapist who raped her but had never been found guilty. The wife of said rapist tells police she killed her husband in self defense but Harper is shown to be stalking him and to be an excellent shot. The picture perfect grouping of gunshot wounds on the rapist plus the smile on Harper at the end makes it pretty clear who killed him. However, the gunshot wounds are not those inflicted by a Desert Eagle .50. Not even close. I guess they didn't want to show the level of gore necessary from a person taking multiple shots from that... hand cannon. (which I am the proud owner of.)

Edited February 6, 2017 by themightykazoo

[Drapers4thWife]

"Transgender Bridge" never fails to make me tear up. The fact that both Avery and Darius didn't want to be defined by that one moment and were on the path to reconciliation, only to have it taken away was heartwrenching. Also, the dumb other kids Darius was hanging out with who got off with a slap on the wrist even though they had zero remorse was infuriating. What Darius did was wrong, no doubt, and negligent but Avery's death was truly an accident. 

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, Drapers4thWife said:

"Transgender Bridge" never fails to make me tear up. The fact that both Avery and Darius didn't want to be defined by that one moment and were on the path to reconciliation, only to have it taken away was heartwrenching. Also, the dumb other kids Darius was hanging out with who got off with a slap on the wrist even though they had zero remorse was infuriating. What Darius did was wrong, no doubt, and negligent but Avery's death was truly an accident. 

I disagree about Transgender Bridge. Darius got the sentence he deserved, his friends did deserve a longer sentence, they've should've been locked up as well as accessories, but Darius was at fault for Avery's death. He ran all the way across the park to harass her because she was transgender, he stole her camera and assaulted her, and then when she defended herself Darius shoved her off a bridge. That was a hate crime and Darius was the main one responsible, he ignored his little sister's pleas to leave Avery alone and instead chose to run across the park to harass her. And his defense of being afraid of transgender people was absolute bullshit. You don't run across a park to pick a fight with someone you are afraid of, especially when your little sister is right there. Darius committed a hate crime and he belonged in prison. I don't see why people are so sympathetic to him, an innocent teenager lost her life because of Darius's actions, and he did it just because he was transphobic, and he will still get out when he is about 22. You ask me, he got it easy. 

[Hannahbtcgte]

Surprised this one hasn't been mentioned yet, but I've always felt really bad for Jeffrey Lynwood (Season 10 Episode 15 - Lead, played by John Gallagher Jr.). His Pica disorder led him to get lead poisoning after a company lied about using lead-based paints, leading to a seizure which left him with a mental deficiency (a 19-year-old with the mind of an 8-year-old). He was then sexually assaulted by his doctor who was never tried for that crime. He confronted the doctor years later and ended up killing him upon provocation, and he was sent to jail for the duration of his trial. There was never a point at which he was able to make a decision based on logic, he was always a victim. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Hannahbtcgte

[Xeliou66]

Yeah Lead is another one that had a sympathetic perp, the reason it doesn't get mentioned is because season 10 was a crappy, joke of a season with lots of laughable episodes so people don't rewatch it much, so the very few good ones from that season get forgotten. 

Other sympathetic perps are Agnes from Mean, I hope she got off. The guy who killed the piece of shit frat pledge master who raped him was sympathetic, he got off easy and I was glad of it. Emma from Alien was another one, she did the world a favor by crippling that kid, he was on his way to becoming the next Eric Rudolph. Also the guy who shot the religious nut who stole the frozen embryo's in Inconceivable, he should get a light sentence as well. 

[CleoCaesar]

This might be a bit of a controversial opinion, but I watched "Doubt" again yesterday and I feel bad for the alleged rapist. Key word being "alleged". The accuser was totally unsympathetic, histrionic, and falsely accused Stabler of molesting her, and staged a suicide attempt for attention. I have zero trouble believing him when he said she's trying to falsely accuse him. We never got to see the jury's verdict in that case, but reasonable doubt was ALL over that one. So I felt bad for Polikoff, the accused.

[Spartan Girl]

3 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

This might be a bit of a controversial opinion, but I watched "Doubt" again yesterday and I feel bad for the alleged rapist. Key word being "alleged". The accuser was totally unsympathetic, histrionic, and falsely accused Stabler of molesting her, and staged a suicide attempt for attention. I have zero trouble believing him when he said she's trying to falsely accuse him. We never got to see the jury's verdict in that case, but reasonable doubt was ALL over that one. So I felt bad for Polikoff, the accused.

Yeah, I felt bad for him too -- if he was innocent. I really wish they hadn't left the ending so ambiguous that time. I get that it was the whole point of the episode being he said/she said, but it still sucks.

[Xeliou66]

I think he was found not guilty, since the fans voted on it and the majority voted not guilty, I think we can assume that was the jury's verdict since the viewers got to be the jury in that one. I don't think he did it either, that girl lost all credibility after she accused Stabler of inappropriate conduct. 

[Spartan Girl]

Not to mention when she purposely timed her suicide attempt so that Olivia would be able to save her at the last moment.

[QueenMab]

I felt for Eddie Garcia in "October Surprise". His only real crime was being loyal to a fault to his lifelong friend..who used him to commit and hide his own crimes. Barba put his arm around Eddie and cried when he had to tell him how much trouble he was in. 

[angel1008]

On 5/6/2015 at 10:36 PM, RafaelBarbas said:

Barba's first episode where he traps the guy with the belt. Just... yes.

Barba could trap me anyday!

[katisha]

Another perp to feel sorry for was the rapist flasher from Wannabe, Season 11, whose dad screwed his head up so badly that he had him rape young girls whilst wearing a hat with a hidden camera so Dad could view the handiwork later. 

[Ambrosefolly]

On 12/2/2015 at 2:06 AM, Bastet said:

The slow-witted kid who got caught up in his sadistic friend's rape and murder of a "drug-dealing" (she was a cancer patient providing marijuana to fellow sufferers) woman.  He just kept lying about the most basic stuff and asking if he could go home, incapable of fully understanding what was happening.  (I think this is the one where Liz Donnelly moves Alex from second to first chair, since "the jury thinks [she makes] little kids cry."  And then his mother is so convinced the jury will grasp the dynamics of the situation and absolve her kid that she turns down a sweet deal on his behalf, and he winds up with the book thrown at him.

 

 

 

1

Whats worse is that friend basically got a slap on the wrist for rape and first degree murder just because he was a couple years younger so you know if this was real life, he would probably do it again in one form or another.  The jurors in the episode looked pretty sickened at what they had to condemn this kid to.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Ambrosefolly

[QueenMab]

Another for me was "Mr. Jackie" the gay music coach. Benson ruined his life, career, his teaching rep, everything because all the way through the show it was like "he's gay, so he must be a pervert with children". I was hoping the Gay Rights or LBGTQ community would crucify Benson for that but as usual she was absolved because she was "doing her job". HE WAS INNOCENT !

[Spartan Girl]

Technically Mr. Jackie wasn't a perp because he was innocent the whole time, but yeah I felt sorry for him. Rollins was the only one that gave him the benefit of the doubt; she kept saying that something weird was going on and they should at least try to keep it quiet until they got yo the bottom of it, but as usual, Benson had already made up her mind and blew right through it.

[QueenMab]

Yeah, I included Mr. Jackie because through the whole show, he WAS considered the perp/suspect by everyone but Rollins(kudos girl) even though we knew early on he was innocent. Infuriating Benson got away with that IMO.

[Xeliou66]

I agree about Mr Jackie, I felt really bad for him. Once again, Benson rushed forward and had someone charged without all the facts with disastrous consequences, it's about time someone held her accountable for this.

[Jamie Satyr]

53 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I agree about Mr Jackie, I felt really bad for him. Once again, Benson rushed forward and had someone charged without all the facts with disastrous consequences, it's about time someone held her accountable for this.

From "Dissonant Voices," the squad never learned their lesson to take things slow! Olivia's the worst at always pushing victims to prosecute when they aren't able and then regret of guys sent away found to be innocent like in "Wrath!" His life was over and all he could think about was retribution; sorta like Lewis who wanted to be in Benson's head forever! ;-)

[QueenMab]

Now that you mention it, Dana Lewis ( Marcia Gay Harden) was my favorite reccuring character and "Wrath" my fave episode. And I was soooo pissed they took her (Lewis) down in the most awful, shameful way that kicked a hole in her character a mile wide. Made her a murderer before she even started her FBI career! I hope she haunts Benson forever.

[Spartan Girl]

Adam Nesbit, the son of psycho bitch Marilyn Nesbit in "Home". Marilyn forced him to kill his poor little brother because she terrorized him with stories about how foster kids end up raped and murdered. Even if it wasn't his fault, that poor kid would never be all  right.

[sockii]

On 3/9/2017 at 10:25 AM, QueenMab said:

Now that you mention it, Dana Lewis ( Marcia Gay Harden) was my favorite reccuring character and "Wrath" my fave episode. And I was soooo pissed they took her (Lewis) down in the most awful, shameful way that kicked a hole in her character a mile wide. Made her a murderer before she even started her FBI career! I hope she haunts Benson forever.

"Secrets Exhumed" is one of those episodes I refuse to accept as canonical in any way, shape or form. Because I loved Dana too, and will not accept this episode's character assassination of her. (I feel similarly about "Presumed Guilty" for how it rewrote Teresa Randall's family and Fin's attitudes, plus trying to hook up Fin & Melinda when Melinda was one of the few characters who seemed happily married on the show. I guess I could just summarize this as "why I hate season 14" and move on...)

[Jamie Satyr]

16 minutes ago, sockii said:

"Secrets Exhumed" is one of those episodes I refuse to accept as canonical in any way, shape or form. Because I loved Dana too, and will not accept this episode's character assassination of her. (I feel similarly about "Presumed Guilty" for how it rewrote Teresa Randall's family and Fin's attitudes, plus trying to hook up Fin & Melinda when Melinda was one of the few characters who seemed happily married on the show. I guess I could just summarize this as "why I hate season 14" and move on...)

It's one thing to commit a crime, but why is it so crucial to have someone accused and condemned for the crime? They know the person didn't do it, but they push for conviction! To me that's even more shameful really! ;-)

[Xeliou66]

I never had a problem with Dana Lewis becoming a murderer. That is probably the most "unpopular SVU opinion" that I have, but I didn't find it out of character. She was a wild card from the start and she almost killed Stabler by shooting at the guy who raped her even though he had already surrendered. That should've cost her her badge and showed that she could be a cold blooded killer, so I had no problem with the revelation that she was a killer, I didn't find it out of character at all.

That being said, season 14 was up and down IMO. There were some really high points, such as Barba's introduction, the 300th episode, Eames from CI appearing  and certain episodes such as Traumatic Wound, Girl Dishonored, Criminal Hatred and Lessons Learned were great SVU episodes that harkened back to the glory years of seasons 2-6. On the other hand, certain episodes were terrible, Vanity's Bonfire with its extremely stupid and offensive ending for example with Benson and Amaro COVERING UP A MURDER for no good reason, and Presumed Guilty, which was just weird all around, bad idea to do a Christmas episode for an L&O show, that just doesn't mix. Those episodes barely seem canon IMO. 

That doesn't really have anything to do with sympathetic perps I admit, but it's still an interesting conversation that's worth having IMO. 

[WendyCR72]

Lots of talk and spirited debates about the show. Should it continue on? With Olivia or Without? Now here's a topic for it. So as to not clog up the Spoilers and Spec thread.

Have at it.

[Xeliou66]

Good idea for a thread. 

I think that the show should go on, season 18 certainly hasn't been the best season but certainly not the worst either, the issues with the schedule have really hurt the show but I think it can go on. I think that the show could go on without Benson, it would lose the hardcore fans of the character but it would renew interest for a lot of other fans who hate Benson. 

I personally think that the writing is a bigger issue than Benson. Stop having so many he said/she said cases involving rich white people, stop having Benson save the day at the end of every episode, start giving other characters screen time and stop with all the Benson personal crap and Benson being a total bitch to everyone around her. I think we need one more detective on the squad, then we would have 2 sets of partners like we used to have. 

[sockii]

At this point, if there's no further shake-up in the writing staff or cast? I would be happy to see it ended—so I would no longer feel obligated to keep watching for completeness' sake. I know a lot of the current fans say they only watch for Raul/Barba; I'm that way with Ice-T. As long as he's still around, woefully underused or not, I'll hang on to the bitter end.

What I would ideally like to see at this point? A big shake up in the cast and writing, as saved the original L&O in its final 2 seasons. We'll never fully get rid of Liv, so maybe promote her to bureau chief, let Sergeant Fin take over running the squad day-to-day, and bring in two new detectives for Rollins and Carisi to pair with. Break things up by utilizing more characters from the M.E.'s office, TARU, etc, again. Have the writers give us stories that aren't all he-said/she-said rapes and are genuine mysteries again.

Realistically what I hope for? At least one new regular character, please. There needs to be that 2 sets of partner dynamic again, and for God's sake, Liv, start acting like a CO and not a junior detective. I don't know that I have hope for better writing unless the ratings continue to nose-dive and they realize that weekly PSA announcements/plots out of an afterschool special do not make for entertaining tv.

Edited April 3, 2017 by sockii

[CelticBlackCat]

If Benson stays in her office, she can stay.  Benson needs to act like the CO, not Chief Deputy Do Good.  No more Saint Olivia Hour and no more mugging for the camera at the end of every episode.

Fin has to stay, as well as Barba.  Rollins and Carisi can stay, but they need another detective or two to pair up with, depending on what happens to Fin.  Fin needs to be elevated to another position.  Benson can go home with Noah and Fin can be the new CO, but we don't want screen time taken away from Fin, He Who Speaks For All Of Us.

Go back to real rape and sexual assault, abuse cases and not the drunken date rape crap and that we know who the perp is from the outset because he's the vic's boss.  Let's get some real detective work going, not the detectives trailing along behind Benson.

That's the first half of the show.

The second half of the show, remember that?  Let's get more courtroom scenes with Barba!  Barba can handle being an ADA by himself, without Benson telling him what to do, thank you very much.  Barba in his office planning his case, Barba in the courtroom trying his case.

No more Benoah stories of any kind.

[wknt3]

It should stay on and I have no doubt it will. It wouldn't be too hard to make it good again, it deserves to have an actual finale, and there are so many bigger problems at NBC that I can't see them cancelling it now. Neglecting it, screwing around with scheduling, making other stupid choices? Sure. But not cancelling it. On a creative note if they were going to pull the plug they should have done it a few years ago when it was a mess and they could have gone out with the old gang intact. Or last year when they had a really solid first half, showed a lot of life, and probably could have brought it in for a solid landing. To go out now would just feel wrong.

What does it need to do? It seems to be pretty obvious. Bring in another character or two, stop repeating itself so much and give us some different types of cases, and stop giving us Liv doing everything. As I've said before they need to look at at how McCoy became DA and Sam Waterston remained the star of the legal half while not insulting our intelligence by arguing cases and prepping witnesses each week. Instead he was more hands on than previous DAs and they showed us aspects of the job that they just told us about before. Why can't we have Benson questioning suspects in the office, and only going out on high profile cases, while giving us more office politics, dealing with the press, community relations, etc.? Instead we seem to be going in the opposite direction dropping non-case scenes and having Liv do even more routine police work. I don't think it would it be all that hard to do, either. So I still hope that they can make the adjustments that the fans want and go out on a high note. My fear/half expectation is that we get a couple more mediocre seasons like this and either Mariska decides to hang it up or NBC sees that the Chicago franchise does well in syndication and/or finds a new reality franchise to run into the ground and decides it's no longer worth it and they end up half-assing a finale because Dick Wolf doesn't want to give up the chance to break the record. ("They offered us a 23rd episode to warp things up, but we're sticking with original script and actively negotiating with MSNBC, Fox Sports 1, Univision, and Facebook for a 5 episode Season 21 and look forward to the chance to break the record as long as they pay full price. The cast and crew are very supportive of the idea and will be until they get new jobs.")

Edited April 5, 2017 by wknt3
hit send too soon

[CleoCaesar]

20 hours ago, CelticBlackCat said:

Go back to real rape and sexual assault, abuse cases and not the drunken date rape crap and that we know who the perp is from the outset because he's the vic's boss

I'd add on "and he's rich and white".

[angel1008]

Get back to the ensemble format, and stop letting the show revolve around one character, without everyone else being her lap dog.  I watch because of Barba, and even HE does not get that much play, unless he is doing whatever Benson wants.  Forget the DA office, Benson is the one who decides cases!

When Meloni was part of the show, there were episodes he was not in, and there were episodes Benson wasn't in.  The show survived!  I know she is EP, but come on, ONE episode?  And stop letting Benson interview victims after her detectives already did it.  It is demeaning. 

[Snappy]

On 4/5/2017 at 8:56 AM, angel1008 said:

Get back to the ensemble format, and stop letting the show revolve around one character, without everyone else being her lap dog.  I watch because of Barba, and even HE does not get that much play, unless he is doing whatever Benson wants.  Forget the DA office, Benson is the one who decides cases!

When Meloni was part of the show, there were episodes he was not in, and there were episodes Benson wasn't in.  The show survived!  I know she is EP, but come on, ONE episode?  And stop letting Benson interview victims after her detectives already did it.  It is demeaning. 

I couldn't agree with you more. The show has devolved into Law; SVU, The Olivia Benson Show, and all the other characters are just bit players filling up the scenery. Whether this is because of ME's ego, directorial duties or something else, it has really hurt the show. The strength of any L&O shows was always the development of the characters and their interactions. It is to the point where I am sick of seeing MH on screen. She is literally in every scene, and it is overkill. I've always been a fan, but find myself starting to not be one anymore since she has been shoved down our throats since CM left.