One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[junienmomo]

How would anyone in town know that Christopher now is wealthy? It wouldn't be public knowledge.

 

I think Lorelai told Luke that Christopher was paying for Yale at the Dragonfly. They were standing in a main room and it was Thanksgiving. Plenty of opportunity to casually overhear.

Another opportunity would have come at Lane's wedding if the timeline is correct.

[Viqutorious]

True, but paying for Yale does not equal a multi-millionaire.

It seems like a tacky thing to discuss around town.

[dustylil]

True, but paying for Yale does not equal a multi-millionaire.

 

.Apparently for Christopher it does. (Sorry, I couldn't resist).

 

I could see the topic coming up at Lane's wedding. The other guests could well have asked Christopher about himself and what he  did for a living - as people do at these kind of events - and he could have happily informed them of his new wealth.

[hippielamb]

I absolutely love this show! With that said, I'll give my extremely UO and run like hell away! :)

I like Dean. I didn't find him scary and abusive - I think that's just Jared Padelecki being ginormous and having that petulant voice. I know everyone hates Dean but even watching every episode of this series more times than I'd like to admit, I still like him. He just seems like a love crazed teen in the beginning. After he marries Lindsay, he does piss me off with his choices but he's still a teenager and teenagers are usually not as smart as they think they are. Anyway, I still like Dean.

I like Dean too. I think his angry outbursts are overplayed and they weren't purposely written to come across as if he has anger issues. I had heard before that fans dislike Dean which took me by surprise. The show pretty much paints him as a good guy we are supposed to like. Maybe it's a generational thing, I could totally understand why Lorelai thought he was a great first boyfriend for Rory.

Even the much hated Rory/Dean affair didn't bother me that much given how young they all are (including Lindsay) and acting like they are still in high school.

[Ms Blue Jay]

On rewatch I didn't dislike Dean as much as I thought I did.  In Season 4 he is a total asshole though.  I think most of the time he is just annoying and whiny, and a bit of a rube, I guess, and the combination of Rory AND Dean in Season 1 - ugh.  There is something about the cutesy act that Rory does with him that just makes me hate both of them so fiercely as a couple.  It's not like he makes me a fireball of rage though, like Steve on Sex and the City.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[NorthangerAbby]

Quote

I like Dean. I didn't find him scary and abusive

 

Coming out of lurkdom to agree at least in part. I think Dean was too flat for me to say I liked him but agree that fans overstate his temper issues when you consider that almost all the men on this show have the exact same ones. Like other people have said, Amy Sherman Palladino exaggerates the rage-y bulls**t with every guy because she thinks it's funny and apparently understandable male behavior, and even though I don't personally see the appeal of the men on this show, we're not supposed to think that Dean is legitimately some sort of abusive menace. It's kind of puzzling how people excoriate Dean for being sullen, angry, boring, jealous and not exactly an open and forthcoming communicator while ignoring that all this describes Luke Danes to a tee. Dean is actually less obnoxious and easier to get along with than Luke. At least Dean could sometimes enjoy himself without grumbling and complaining nonstop and didn't seem nearly as annoyed by Rory as Luke seemed to be by Lorelai. 

While I'm here, I can't resist adding my own unpopular opinions. It's fun to assess my real opinions of this show and consider which ones seem to be shared by only a small minority of the fandom. I listed my unpopular opinions about Downton Abbey earlier, so it's safe to conclude that my taste in TV is pretty eclectic. I think numbering these makes it easier to read:

1. You can tell from the first paragraph that I don't like Luke, never have and never will, but I will allow that he was better as a friend than when they tried to make him Lorelai's love interest. Their relationship was so bad that it surprises me so many people want to see them get back together. I believe that people should like whomever they please, but I guess I'm just confused by the popularity of this pair except maybe that romantic comedies tell us opposite people who can't get along are supposed to end up together. If the show had ended before Luke and Lorelai had ever dated, I understand there would be a lot of disappointment that we never got to see what they were like as a couple. But we did see it for two seasons, and it didn't work in any way. It was such a bleak, awkward, forced relationship between two people who don't mesh emotionally or intellectually and have less spark than any couple I can recall. Their communication skills got even worse as the relationship went on. Lorelai only proposed because she was feeling bereft that she had lost Rory and needed to feel like the one person left in her life wouldn't leave her, and they both did everything they could to avoid actually getting married like it was a dire punishment someone was threatening them with. It felt like they knew marriage would make them even more unhappy than they already were. Did I read correctly that it was two months before Luke told Lorelai about April's existence? Two months? LOL. That's a pretty compelling reason to break up with a guy even if he weren't the most unpleasant man on planet earth. I'm surprised that so many fans want more of this downer of a duo.  

2. I didn't care much for Rory's relationships either, but I will admit she connected very well with Jess or at least was drawn to him in a way that she didn't seem to be to her other boyfriends. As individuals I thought Dean was definitely the least terrible by default. I won't even waste time getting into why I hate Logan. More power to anyone who likes him and appreciates his finer qualities, but I can't stand him. The worse problem is that I always felt like Rory, the real Rory, wouldn't like him any better than I did. Not because he's rich, because I couldn't care less about that one way or the other, but because he's such an arrogant jerk. Did people here ever read Gone Girl? The primary male character is bright, allegedly charming and a good newspaper writer but is a smarmy ass who drinks too much. It reminds me of Logan though even I'll admit that Nick was worse. The point is that Nick is described as a guy whose face a lot of people just want to punch. Logan has a face that I just want to punch, not because of his features but that expression he always wears. Didn't someone here or on another board call him Smirky McSmarm or something? That's Logan to me. It would be nice if I liked him since he ended up staying around forever, and by Gilmore Girls standards he wasn't even that terrible a boyfriend, but I couldn't stand him or the way Rory seemed around him. 

3. I think the first season of this show was its best. I can tell from seeing season rankings that that is unpopular! I really love the first few seasons in general but think the show became so bad, not just compared to what it once was but when evaluated against other TV shows, that sometimes I wish it had ended with Rory's high school graduation. Speaking of which, I thought that episode was one of the best of the series, though I don't think that's unpopular?

4. Lorelai is irritating, immature and sometimes makes very bad choices when it comes to men, but I think she gets a little too much criticism. She is actually a really impressive woman with so many wonderful qualities even if she's someone I'd be unlikely to click with in real life. I love Rory as well, though mostly when she's not around her boyfriends, especially Logan.

5. Now that I know how it played out, I wish Lorelai had married Max, the most inoffensive and decent of her suitors, and that Rory had spent most of the series single. I know that doesn't make for exciting TV for many viewers, but the romantic drama was consistently the weakest aspect of this show. The show is so great when it sticks to its strengths, like dialogue, family dynamics and the girls pursuing their dreams and interests. I get that no WB show would ever have its leads happily married the whole series and would be even less likely to keep a young woman single for most of the series. In this case, I just wish it had happened because the romance is written so poorly, and most of the men need medication. 

6. I have a soft spot for Taylor. Towns like Stars Hollow need Taylors. And I enjoyed how he made Luke even more of a rage-y lunatic than he is normally. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by NorthhangerAbby

[dustylil]

Quote

Did I read correctly that it was two months before Luke told Lorelai about April's existence? Two months?

Actually, Luke never did tell Lorelai about April. The little girl herself did.

Quote

I wish Lorelai had married Max, the most inoffensive and decent of her suitors

Me too. I was kind of disappointed to learn he was not returning for the revival.

[Anela]

On 4/22/2016 at 2:55 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

On rewatch I didn't dislike Dean as much as I thought I did.  In Season 4 he is a total asshole though.  I think most of the time he is just annoying and whiny, and a bit of a rube, I guess, and the combination of Rory AND Dean in Season 1 - ugh.  There is something about the cutesy act that Rory does with him that just makes me hate both of them so fiercely as a couple.  It's not like he makes me a fireball of rage though, like Steve on Sex and the City.

I go back and forth. I've been watching it all over again, because I've been depressed - it's one of those shows I put on when I want something that's pretty light compared to other shows - and I've just got through the episodes where Jess had Rory's bracelet, where she went to NYC, and the dance where Dean breaks up with her. I understood why Dean was upset, and clingy - he knew something was going on, and he didn't want to lose his girlfriend. I *loved* it when he approached Jess at the end of Thanksgiving, smirking, and telling him that he didn't have to behave himself around him anymore. 

I hated the whole affair thing, even though they were young.

I love them in season one, though. Her awkwardness, and his confidence, and kindness towards her. 

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

I don't like Rory's graduation speech. It makes me cry and I love that she gave all the adult Gilmores a moment to shine, but it was her graduation. It's a trope I hate, a main character crafting a graduation speech all about another main character. I've never been to a real graduation where the class speaker talked almost exclusively about their family. 

No one at that school really knows Lorelai. Rory's speech was supposed to be about her and her classmates, what they'd achieved and what they had to look forward to. I didn't like a whole graduation ceremony being reduced down to the Gilmore girls. 

[hippielamb]

Northhangerabby, 
I agree with so much of what you wrote. I think it's easier to understand Dean's behaviour because he's so young. Seeing a grown man act like that as with Luke, makes me judge him more harshly. Of course maybe that's why some people criticize Lorelai all the time too. Likability is definitely a factor here, we are more critical of characters we don't like.

I did eventually warm up to Logan but it took a lonnnnnnnnng time. I associate him with Rory's acting out and I know that is unfair. Still, I think if Dean or even Jess had been present for stealing a yacht, they knew Rory well enough to know something was definitely wrong.

I liked Max and thought that if they had kept dating instead of the impulsive proposal, things may have turned out differently. I liked his relationship with both girls. He was the only man other than Richard that Rory could talk to about intellectual matters, she seemed to have a lot in common with him. It would have been interesting seeing him help Rory with the college application and interview process. And also being someone that could be there for Lorelai. I think the show established pretty well that they connected on a physical level. He seemed to be on her level in that department, they just needed time to move their connection beyond the bedroom. Poor Max.

[Guest]

My biggest unpopular opinion which may just be kinda popular now is I always wanted Lorelai and Christopher to be together. I was so sad that they never worked out, in the last episode of season 2 she looked so happy when talking to Sookie about sleeping with him. 

[NorthangerAbby]

I was nervous to check replies this morning but you all are so kind and fun to trade GG opinions with! 

 

Quote

Did I read correctly that it was two months before Luke told Lorelai about April's existence? Two months?

 

 

Quote

Actually, Luke never did tell Lorelai about April. The little girl herself did.

 

Yikes. Sorry I didn't know that! I never actually watch much of the later seasons and have only see certain episodes once or twice. That seems especially bad because one of Luke's few strengths is supposedly that he's reliable and trustworthy, and things like the April debacle cast serious doubt on that. I know some people love Luke no matter what and I respect that, but if another guy on this show had done that, like Christopher, Max, Jason, Logan, Dean, Jess, Jackson, Zach or anyone else, would fans expect or want the female partner to immediately forgive with the guy in question? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, so please take that question as rhetorical! Like hippielamb said, "Likability is definitely a factor here, we are more critical of characters we don't like." I don't find Luke likable and haven't since around the second season, so it's possible that I'm looking for reasons to confirm my impression that he's got too many deep-rooted problems and is a worse boyfriend than most think. The reverse is true too, I think, that people who already love him will go out of their way to defend behavior that they would never condone from another character. And this applies with all characters, not just Luke. 

 

Quote

I wish Lorelai had married Max, the most inoffensive and decent of her suitors

 

 

Quote

Me too. I was kind of disappointed to learn he was not returning for the revival.

 

I can't believe there's a character who's not returning! From the list I saw, it looked like anyone and everyone is coming back whether or not they fit. 

I usually think of Max as just the most inoffensive and least problematic of Lorelai's significant others, but posts have me wondering if maybe they were or could have been a very happy match.I like how Max's intellectual book smarts balances Lorelai's real world resourcefulness and cleverness. They're both very bright, but in different ways. They're both a little overconfident but, again, in different ways that they could call each other on. Max is more mature and a more forthright communicator than almost any other male character on the show. Lorelai could benefit from that while also adding fun and spontaneity in his life that he could benefit from. Max struck me as a bit of a sheltered academic in some ways. Those are all nice complementary differences to have in a relationship that lead to growth as opposed to differences that lead to clashes and misunderstanding like I felt Luke and Lorelai had. I also agree that Max and Rory had a lovely connection. I know Luke is supposed to have been like a father to Rory, though that's something I felt the show tried to tell me rather than demonstrate more than once a season or so. It's Max, though, who Rory really seemed like she loved and connected with.

 

Quote

 go back and forth. I've been watching it all over again, because I've been depressed - it's one of those shows I put on when I want something that's pretty light compared to other shows

 

Wishing you the very best! This hit me hard because I've suffered from depression at various times in my life as well. I agree that this show is a lovely pick-me-up in many ways. Especially if you skip certain scenes. 

 

Quote

 

My biggest unpopular opinion which may just be kinda popular now is I always wanted Lorelai and Christopher to be together. I was so sad that they never worked out, in the last episode of season 2 she looked so happy when talking to Sookie about sleeping with him. 

Ix

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm conflicted about Christopher, but she did seem quite happy around him, probably more so than any of her other men. I think I'm now realizing that I have the least popular ratings of her relationships, because I would probably go with

1) Max. I already explained above why I think they worked and could have worked in the future. I also did feel that they had an emotional connection though I understand why some didn't see it. 

2) Christopher. I have a certain bias against him, though I certainly don't dislike him as much as many other Gilmore fans do, but I can't deny that she seemed happier around him than any other man. I don't doubt that she was in love with Christopher at points in the series, but I have at least a little doubt that she was in love with any of the others.  

3) Jason Stiles. I like his wit and the similarities in their families and background. I didn't see love there, though. I'm not even sure I saw attraction. 

4) Luke Danes. I'm sure I don't have to go into it again, LOL. I do laugh at the part where Lorelai says she never loved anyone other than Luke, because while they were actually together they seemed less in love than in any of her other relationships. They didn't make each other happy. I wasn't even sure they liked each other or were attracted to each other on a physical, intellectual or emotional level at all. 

I meant to mention in another post that I hate the Life and Death Brigade, literally all of their scenes and the characters who they bothered to give names, like Finn, Colin, Robert and the anorexic girl who kept laughing about how she would never eat more than a few calories a day. Eating disorders are hilarious, hahaha. (That's sarcasm, of course; I wish there were a sarcasm font to remove all doubt and misinterpretation!) The male Life and Death characters were gross on every level, and I don't believe for a second that the real Rory would ever enjoy or even tolerate their company. We saw many other examples of her choosing to remove herself from drunk, obnoxious womanizing types who weren't even as bad as The Life and Death Brigade boys. I don't even think much of the scene that people love with Rory agreeing to jump with Logan off that thing. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by NorthangerAbby

[dustylil]

3 hours ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

I don't like Rory's graduation speech. It makes me cry and I love that she gave all the adult Gilmores a moment to shine, but it was her graduation. It's a trope I hate, a main character crafting a graduation speech all about another main character. I've never been to a real graduation where the class speaker talked almost exclusively about their family. 

No one at that school really knows Lorelai. Rory's speech was supposed to be about her and her classmates, what they'd achieved and what they had to look forward to. I didn't like a whole graduation ceremony being reduced down to the Gilmore girls. 

In fairness to Rory, we only heard the introductory portion of her speech, not the whole thing. As the scene was ending she was saying " As we prepare ourselves to leave...." -  shifting the focus to her classmates and presumably their achievements and aspirations.

[cuddlingcrowley]

Quote

I liked Max and thought that if they had kept dating instead of the impulsive proposal, things may have turned out differently. I liked his relationship with both girls. He was the only man other than Richard that Rory could talk to about intellectual matters, she seemed to have a lot in common with him. It would have been interesting seeing him help Rory with the college application and interview process. And also being someone that could be there for Lorelai. I think the show established pretty well that they connected on a physical level. He seemed to be on her level in that department, they just needed time to move their connection beyond the bedroom. Poor Max.

Quote

I also did feel that they had an emotional connection though I understand why some didn't see it. 

I also really liked Max and I think that he was the right guy at the wrong time. Lorelai simply wasn't ready to take the marriage step with anyone and rushing into it was what doomed them.

 

Quote

 

I think the first season of this show was its best. 

 

 

 

 

Same here. It's endlessly rewatchable and it's so perfectly stress-free, fluffy and relaxing. I also love season 2 but while that was the season that made me fall in love with Gilmore Girls, and fall hard, S1 has a special place in my heart.

Edited May 2, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[NorthangerAbby]

Quote

 

Same here. It's endlessly rewatchable and it's so perfectly stress-free, fluffy and relaxing. I also love season 2 but while that was the season that made me fall in love with Gilmore Girls, and fall hard, S1 has a special place in my heart.

 

 

Another Season 1 lover! Fluffy is the perfect descriptor. I also really love Rory in the first season. I always love Rory, especially before she gets together with Logan, but probably more in the first season than any other. I can't wait to watch those episodes again now that we talked more about Max. I feel like I like him more whenever I rewatch and appreciate his relationships with both Lorelai and Rory more than I did when I first saw it. Max seems especially great compared to the other underwhelming relationships Lorelai ended up involved in! Max's one major mistake was proposing out of jealousy and desperation. Spontaneity and impulse don't really work for him. He's more of a cutely nerdy planner and logical thinker and should leave the impulsive spontaneity to Lorelai! But we know Amy Sherman Palladino loves having all Gilmore Girls guys lose their minds with jealousy every now and then. It's like her signature move, LOL. Sometimes when I watch the show I just find myself hoping she didn't write male characters and romantic relationships based on her own experiences with her husband because that would be depressing. 

This is random, but now I'm curious about how Max would have reacted to Logan if he and Lorelai had married and he had become Rory's step-father. I'll assume that he and Rory would be even closer by that point in the series. Lorelai was very biased about Logan, her grandparents were biased in the opposite direction, Luke just hates everyone automatically and thinks Rory is a perfect princess so wouldn't like her dating anyone, and while Rory cares about Paris and Lane and will sometimes confide in them, she only rarely takes their advice throughout most of the series. Plus it's not like Lane always had the best taste in guys other than David Rygalski and Paris is brilliant but crazy when it comes to anything involving social interactions, so maybe Rory wouldn't put much stock in their judgment. Max might have been the one person she could trust to offer a nice levelheaded perspective. As a teacher at Chilton, he's been exposed to guys like Logan and doesn't automatically lump  all people of privilege together. He's developed a pretty good instinct and I could see him carefully assessing Logan while still being polite to him if Max, Lorelai, Rory and Logan all spent time together. I wonder what his conclusion would be. I don't think Max would like him much, but let's be real, I'm saying that because I don't like him much! It would have been even more interesting to see what someone as academically oriented as Max had to say about Rory dropping out of Yale. 

 

 

Quote

Quote

 I also love season 2 but while that was the season that made me fall in love with Gilmore Girls, and fall hard, S1 has a special place in my heart.

 

That is definitely my order too, Season 1 and then Season 2. Then Season 3. Then maybe the network should have pulled the plug, LOL. I know people love Season 4 but I don't think it had the charm and spirit that I associate with the show and it just felt like they had already run out of ideas. Even so, I would still probably watch Season 4 over the last three seasons. I've only seen most of those episodes from 5, 6 and 7 once or twice, and it was enough to almost make me stop loving the show entirely, so I doubt I'll ever see them again other than some individual scenes here and there. 

Along similar lines, I may not even watch the revival. That's unpopular to admit even here! I don't think we're allowed to discuss revival details in here, but just generally I don't like the sound of most of what we've heard and short of taking us all back in a time machine and erasing most of the last three or four seasons of the series, I don't think there's much they can do that will leave me with a better overall feeling about the show. I would rather stick to the first three seasons and pretend things went differently from there.  

 

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2016 by NorthangerAbby

[nolieblue]

I liked Max at first as a match for Lorelai but I found him to be increasingly patronizing towards her. I think he was charmed by her but I often felt like he was just about to pat her on the head and give her a treat (yes, like an engagement ring) and I often felt like she was  performing for him. As much as I detest Christopher, at least with him Lorelai seemed more like herself and more at ease. 

[Sweet Tee]

I'm always gonna ship L/L.  I fell in love with them pretty early on.  But, I liked Max too.  If it couldn't be Luke, I'd pick Max.  Jason was okay until his last episode.  That was just weird and kind of threatening.  As for Chris, well, I hate everything about him so, that's a no from me.

[ally862]

On 4/22/2016 at 10:56 PM, 2Old2BAFangirl said:

 

 

On the other hand, I absolutely hate, detest, despise Kirk.  I find nothing funny, entertaining, or endearing about Kirk at all.  I just hate him. 

 

Ok, I'll go now.

I 100% agree with this.  I can't stand Kirk.  I don't find him in anyway amusing, I just think he's an ass.

[Smad]

Funny how a lot of the men turn into idiots, psychos, raging bulls or assholes only once they are with the Gilmore Girls. Dean, Jess, Luke, Christopher to a degree. I really wonder how Logan made it out alive. Jason was too emotionally detached to be affected that way. With Max I don't know if that was his regular behavior in a relationship or just with Lorelai so I don't know. Poor guys either way.

[Taryn74]

14 hours ago, nolieblue said:

I liked Max at first as a match for Lorelai but I found him to be increasingly patronizing towards her. I think he was charmed by her but I often felt like he was just about to pat her on the head and give her a treat (yes, like an engagement ring) and I often felt like she was  performing for him. 

 

What bothered me the most was their "playful" teacher/naughty schoolgirl type banter.  It's gross in any setting but a thousand times worse considering he WAS her 16 yo daughter's teacher.  No, Lorelai.  Just no.

Not to mention the times she told (or implied) intimate details about their dating life to Rory.  Jeebus, woman.  Does the word 'boundaries' even have meaning to you?

I also hated how Max treated Rory and Dean as peers on their "double date" even going so far as to take dating advice from Dean.  Regarding Dean's girlfriend's mother.  

What it boils down to is Max pretty much icked me out on all levels, heh.

[NorthangerAbby]

Funny how a lot of the men turn into idiots, psychos, raging bulls or assholes only once they are with the Gilmore Girls. Dean, Jess, Luke, Christopher to a degree. I really wonder how Logan made it out alive. Jason was too emotionally detached to be affected that way. With Max I don't know if that was his regular behavior in a relationship or just with Lorelai so I don't know. Poor guys either way.

One theory is that writing the men as so terrible, especially while dating the Gilmore Girls, was an attempt to ensure that viewers still liked and rooted for Lorelai and Rory no matter what conflicts arose? I know that's a reach and it clearly failed as a strategy since, while I love both Gilmore Girls even though they have major shortcomings, it seems many other viewers ended up sympathizing more with the men in their lives. Or perhaps it just all comes down to Amy Sherman Palladino's inability to write decent romantic relationships. Smad, I love your name so much! 

I also hated how Max treated Rory and Dean as peers on their "double date" even going so far as to take dating advice from Dean

That actually didn't bother me, though I can see your point.

Taryn 74, this isn't at all an attack on anything you just wrote, but just some thoughts that it triggered, so please don't take it personally! People here seem great about being friendly and respectful even while politely disagreeing, but I just don't want to offend anyone, especially as the new kid. Anyway, after reading your post I started thinking of the two double dates in the series, the one with Dean, Max and the Gilmores in early Season 2 and then the one with Dean, Luke and the Gilmores in Season 5, and I was reminded of why I prefer Max to Luke as unpopular as that is. That first double date showed the Gilmores genuinely happy and having fun, not at all tense or worried that Max wouldn't be able to behave like a civil human being and all four of them enjoying one another's company. The one with Luke in Season 5 was a disaster, with Luke as his Lukeiest and the girls understandably anxious, tense and unhappy the entire time. Luke's behavior towards Dean was always one of the many things about him I find inexcusable, and I find Luke's treatment of Dean far more inappropriate than something like Max bonding over the Gilmore Girls with Dean. 

I thought of another unpopular opinion last night, which is that in some ways I have more respect for Logan's father than Logan himself and actually thought Mitchum came off as more sincere and trustworthy despite the fact that he's terribly insensitive. I'm sure that's very unpopular among people who are more normal than I am! 

[hippielamb]

On 5/2/2016 at 9:50 AM, heatherrrrz said:

My biggest unpopular opinion which may just be kinda popular now is I always wanted Lorelai and Christopher to be together. I was so sad that they never worked out, in the last episode of season 2 she looked so happy when talking to Sookie about sleeping with him. 

That's basically why I love them together. Even when it's not in a romantic context like at Rory's debate in Season 6, they get on so well. Lorelai seems so happy with him, and that's all I care about. She's my favourite character and I want her to be happy.

 

On 5/2/2016 at 10:17 AM, NorthangerAbby said:

 

4) Luke Danes. I'm sure I don't have to go into it again, LOL. I do laugh at the part where Lorelai says she never loved anyone other than Luke, because while they were actually together they seemed less in love than in any of her other relationships. They didn't make each other happy. I wasn't even sure they liked each other or were attracted to each other on a physical, intellectual or emotional level at all. 

I meant to mention in another post that I hate the Life and Death Brigade, literally all of their scenes and the characters who they bothered to give names, like Finn, Colin, Robert and the anorexic girl who kept laughing about how she would never eat more than a few calories a day. Eating disorders are hilarious, hahaha. (That's sarcasm, of course; I wish there were a sarcasm font to remove all doubt and misinterpretation!) The male Life and Death characters were gross on every level, and I don't believe for a second that the real Rory would ever enjoy or even tolerate their company. We saw many other examples of her choosing to remove herself from drunk, obnoxious womanizing types who weren't even as bad as The Life and Death Brigade boys. I don't even think much of the scene that people love with Rory agreeing to jump with Logan off that thing. 

I think Lorelai is confusing her friendship and the love you have for a longtime friend with being in love. After the first break-up she did lose her best friend for a time and then it happened again later. If they wanted us to believe she was in love then it should have been shown to us differently. I heard the talk Amy Palladino gave on nerdist and she said that you end up with your best friend. It made me wonder if that was what she was trying to represent with Luke and Lorelai, best friends in a relationship.

I do like Finn though. *shrugs* I have a fondness for the charming (though that's debatable lol) party boys. 

23 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

 

What bothered me the most was their "playful" teacher/naughty schoolgirl type banter.  It's gross in any setting but a thousand times worse considering he WAS her 16 yo daughter's teacher.  No, Lorelai.  Just no.

Not to mention the times she told (or implied) intimate details about their dating life to Rory.  Jeebus, woman.  Does the word 'boundaries' even have meaning to you?

I also hated how Max treated Rory and Dean as peers on their "double date" even going so far as to take dating advice from Dean.  Regarding Dean's girlfriend's mother.  

What it boils down to is Max pretty much icked me out on all levels, heh.

I think Max indulged Lorelai's kinky side (schoolgirl calling him Mr Medina, knowing her happy bark, etc). It seemed he wasn't as straight laced as he appeared on the surface. 

Treating Dean and Rory as peers probably came from seeing how Lorelai interacted with them. Max has spent very little time with the girls as a family unit and had to have noticed they have a untraditional mother/daughter relationship. Which makes it odd when he goes into his step-dad role later with Dean and Rory on the porch. 

[Smad]

53 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

Jeebus, woman.  Does the word 'boundaries' even have meaning to you?

Have you met Lorelai?

17 minutes ago, NorthangerAbby said:

 

One theory is that writing the men as so terrible, especially while dating the Gilmore Girls, was an attempt to ensure that viewers still liked and rooted for Lorelai and Rory no matter what conflicts arose? I know that's a reach and it clearly failed as a strategy since, while I love both Gilmore Girls even though they have major shortcomings, it seems many other viewers ended up sympathizing more with the men in their lives. Or perhaps it just all comes down to Amy Sherman Palladino's inability to write decent romantic relationships. Smad, I love your name so much!

And often times it was also because there was another guy looming in the background so ASP gave the current boyfriend some nasty qualities. I mean seriously how many times has ASP pulled this stunt during the run of the show? There's a reason it's called 'The Dean Treatment'. It happened with Dean, Jess, Luke and Christopher (to a degree). Things like that make me wish ASP wasn't such a control freak and had someone on staff who could actually do characterization decently. Provided she would actually listen to that person.

Quote

Taryn 74, this isn't at all an attack on anything you just wrote, but just some thoughts that it triggered, so please don't take it personally! People here seem great about being friendly and respectful even while politely disagreeing, but I just don't want to offend anyone, especially as the new kid. Anyway, after reading your post I started thinking of the two double dates in the series, the one with Dean, Max and the Gilmores in early Season 2 and then the one with Dean, Luke and the Gilmores in Season 5, and I was reminded of why I prefer Max to Luke as unpopular as that is. That first double date showed the Gilmores genuinely happy and having fun, not at all tense or worried that Max wouldn't be able to behave like a civil human being and all four of them enjoying one another's company. The one with Luke in Season 5 was a disaster, with Luke as his Lukeiest and the girls understandably anxious, tense and unhappy the entire time. Luke's behavior towards Dean was always one of the many things about him I find inexcusable, and I find Luke's treatment of Dean far more inappropriate than something like Max bonding over the Gilmore Girls with Dean.

The problem here is 3 fold. First of all like most of Stars Hollow's residents Luke idealized Rory to an unhealthy degree. She's a delicate flower that can do no wrong and God help whoever hurts her. Creepy. But that's not limited to Luke at all. Also neither Lorelai nor Rory ever told him the real reason why Rory and Dean broke up that first time. Hell Rory let everyone, including her mother, think Dean was some evil monster that broke her heart. God forbid she actually stop acting like Miss Perfect, grow a set and set people straight.

The second problem here is that Lorelai often expected things from Luke that fall into the father or step-father category. Whether that's in TMT where she yells at him that he has obligations to her and Rory (really Lorelai did I miss the part where Luke is Rory's father) or the damn matress thing in S4. So if Luke oversteps his boundaries in that regard it's only because Lorelai put him in that place. Luke didn't assume that position all on his own.

The third thing at work is the Dean-Luke paralell that I think ASP had been going for since S4. They both dated women they weren't in love and eventually married them because the one they were pining for was out of their reach. Also one can imagine that Luke's behavior in S5 in regards to Dean had little to do with him and more to do with Luke's own issues of having been in the same situation. Talk about majorly projecting. However that wasn't Dean's fault and Luke should have laid off him.

I really don't like talking about Luke's post-S4 character assasination. Being with Lorelai really did him no favors which just brings me back to my former post lol.

[NorthangerAbby]

Quote

I think Lorelai is confusing her friendship and the love you have for a longtime friend with being in love. After the first break-up she did lose her best friend for a time and then it happened again later. If they wanted us to believe she was in love then it should have been shown to us differently. I heard the talk Amy Palladino gave on nerdist and she said that you end up with your best friend. It made me wonder if that was what she was trying to represent with Luke and Lorelai, best friends in a relationship.

 

 

I usually love the idea of ending up with your best friend, but the problem I found is that Luke and Lorelai didn't act anything like best friends once they were together. Best friends communicate, connect, have fun together, talk honestly, and understand each other. Luke and Lorelai seemed either distant or annoyed most of the time. I'm also remembering that quote about how love is friendship set on fire, and Luke and Lorelai have such bad chemistry as a romantic couple that it's more like friendship that couldn't even reach the level of lukewarm, lol. 

Edited May 3, 2016 by NorthangerAbby

[NorthangerAbby]

After reading the above post, it reminded me again that Dean and Luke really are very similar, making it all the more surprising to me that fans love the older one who should know better and hate the younger one who's still maturing and not even quite as bad. 

I'm also not quite seeing the kinky schoolgirl and her naughty teacher dynamic between Lorelai and Max that others here do. I agree that Max is the only man other than Christopher who Lorelai seemed to feel romantic passion and physical attraction for. She sometimes looks repulsed by having to kiss Luke and he doesn't look much more thrilled about it than she does unless they've knocked back enough alcohol first.  

Edited May 3, 2016 by NorthangerAbby

[Guest]

On 4/22/2016 at 10:56 PM, 2Old2BAFangirl said:

I like Dean.  I didn't find him scary and abusive - I think that's just Jared Padelecki being ginormous and having that petulant voice.  I know everyone hates Dean but even watching every episode of this series more times than I'd like to admit, I still like him.  He just seems like a love crazed teen in the beginning. After he marries Lindsay, he does piss me off with his choices but he's still a teenager and teenagers are usually not as smart as they think they are. Anyway, I still like Dean.

 

I like Seasons 1-3 Dean. He and Rory both had a lot of issues, but I don't think he was threatening to her or had terrible anger issues. Season 4 he's fine in Chicken and Beef, but the way he acts while married (and sulking that Rory talked to another guy, etc.) is ridiculous.  

1 hour ago, Taryn74 said:

 

What bothered me the most was their "playful" teacher/naughty schoolgirl type banter.  It's gross in any setting but a thousand times worse considering he WAS her 16 yo daughter's teacher.  No, Lorelai.  Just no.

Not to mention the times she told (or implied) intimate details about their dating life to Rory.  Jeebus, woman.  Does the word 'boundaries' even have meaning to you?

I also hated how Max treated Rory and Dean as peers on their "double date" even going so far as to take dating advice from Dean.  Regarding Dean's girlfriend's mother.  

What it boils down to is Max pretty much icked me out on all levels, heh.

Other than the third item, your items are Lorelai related.  She did the schoolgirl thing, but we never really saw him reply in character.  So I'm not sure why this makes Max ick you out.  Though Max also did bring things up to Rory that, considering his role as her teacher, were inappropriate (asking why he hadn't heard from Lorelai, etc.).

[NorthangerAbby]

Other than the third item, your items are Lorelai related.  She did the schoolgirl thing, but we never really saw him reply in character.  So I'm not sure why this makes Max ick you out

 

Deaja, jinx, you owe me a Coke! 

[NorthangerAbby]

I was on a different board where everyone was excoriating Lorelai for not being more open to Jess, so it seems another unpopular opinion of mine is that I don't blame her at all in that regard. Jess has good qualities, but there's a lot about him that most mothers of teens would be understandably alarmed about. I think even people who hate Lorelai will admit that Jess did not exactly make a good first impression on her, almost going out of his way to be as disrespectful as possible, and he didn't even apologize for that. Apologizing does seem to be one of those things that male Gilmore Girls character just don't do, LOL, so I know that's not just Jess. But Lorelai did respect Rory's decision to date him, tried to be friendly or at least polite to Jess, and usually handled that situation better than most mothers I've known would have. Jess is an insolent, rude jerk who stopped going to class and lied about it and seemed intent on alienating as many people as possible. There's a lot I ended up liking about Jess, but are there really a lot of mothers who would have been more enthusiastic than Lorelai was about their daughters dating a Jess, especially the Jess of Seasons 2 and 3? 

[dustylil]

Quote

Funny how a lot of the men turn into idiots, psychos, raging bulls or assholes only once they are with the Gilmore Girls

I don't know that it is just once they are with the Gilmore Girls.  Jackson, Marty and - to a great extent Richard - also fit those descriptors. I doubt that his personality changed upon getting together with Emily.

[Smad]

31 minutes ago, dustylil said:

I don't know that it is just once they are with the Gilmore Girls.  Jackson, Marty and - to a great extent Richard - also fit those descriptors. I doubt that his personality changed upon getting together with Emily.

With Gilmore Girls I meant specifically those named Lorelai (excluding Lorelai l). Jackson never dated either one, neither did Marty or Richard.

[cuddlingcrowley]

Quote

Funny how a lot of the men turn into idiots, psychos, raging bulls or assholes only once they are with the Gilmore Girls

As manipulative as I thought Dean was with Rory for most of season 2, and sometimes downright asshole-y, it's nowhere near in the realm of how absolutely awful he was to Lindsay. That poor girl.

Luke was also terribly passive-agressive to both Nicole and Rachel, and let's us all remember the guy got arrested for his "reaction" to finding out the girlfriend he was shown completely checked out of cheated on him.

[dustylil]

22 minutes ago, Smad said:

Jackson never dated either one, neither did Marty or Richard

I know none of them dated Lorelai or Rory. I was commenting that the descriptors of "idiots, psychos, raging bulls and assholes" also described the male characters on the show other than the romantic interests of the Stars Hollow Gilmores. The show runners seemed to have a rather limited imagination when it came to creating men. By the time the series ended, I was becoming afraid for Reverend Skinner and Rabbi Behrens.

[HeySandyStrange]

Quote

I like Seasons 1-3 Dean. He and Rory both had a lot of issues, but I don't think he was threatening to her or had terrible anger issues. Season 4 he's fine in Chicken and Beef, but the way he acts while married (and sulking that Rory talked to another guy, etc.) is ridiculous.  

I think the biggest problem with Dean was that he had long outlived his purpose as a character after the first 1 or 2 seasons of the show, but they still kept dragging him into the story. Especially since, unlike Jess or Logan, he was never given much of an identity outside of being Rory's first boyfriend and later, affair partner. I think he wouldn't have been so hated if they just left him as her "perfect" first boyfriend who broke up with her in the second or third season and went on his merry way, without being an jerk about it. I always thought Dean as a character and the post season one story lines involving Rory and him were some of the worst handled in the run of the show.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I think the biggest problem with Dean was that he had long outlived his purpose as a character after the first 1 or 2 seasons of the show, but they still kept dragging him into the story. Especially since, unlike Jess or Logan, he was never given much of an identity outside of being Rory's first boyfriend and later, affair partner. I think he wouldn't have been so hated if they just left him as her "perfect" first boyfriend who broke up with her in the second or third season and went on his merry way, without being an jerk about it. I always thought Dean as a character and the post season one story lines involving Rory and him were some of the worst handled in the run of the show.

This.  For whatever reason, they didn't want to write Dean out, but he really had no purpose or life on the show outside of his connection to Rory.  It would have made more sense to simply write out the character once story-wise, Dean had run his course, and let that be it.     

[NorthangerAbby]

I was commenting that the descriptors of "idiots, psychos, raging bulls and assholes" also described the male characters on the show other than the romantic interests of the Stars Hollow Gilmores. The show runners seemed to have a rather limited imagination when it came to creating men.By the time the series ended, I was becoming afraid for Reverend Skinner and Rabbi Behrens.

LOL! I have a really novel idea. I think the reverend and rabbi should have been written as really sullen, petulant, rage-y, jealous, passive-aggressive jerks who don't know how to communicate like normal human beings and have poorer anger management skills than what we would expect from the average three year old. Just for variety, since there didn't seem to be nearly enough guys like that on this show. 

Luke was also terribly passive-agressive to both Nicole and Rachel, and let's us all remember the guy got arrested for his "reaction" to finding out the girlfriend he was shown completely checked out of cheated on him.

That incident showed again that Luke has really serious anger problems. Damaging Nicole's property was just one sign. This is another example, and there are a lot, where if you erased Luke's name and attributed his words and actions to any other male character from this show, I think a lot of fans would be quick to trash the character. For some reason everything Luke does is defended by a large portion of the fanbase. 

I don't think his character changed drastically once he started dating Lorelai, which I gather is unpopular since some seem to feel that Lorelai or the writers ruined Luke to no fault of his own, as if he was such a delight to begin with. Like you said, he was also avoidant, evasive and his permanently surly self with Rachel and Nicole, long before he and Lorelai dated, and seemed to "forget" to communicate important pieces of information to those women along the way, including little things like how he really felt about them and whether he even wanted to even be in relationships with them at all. Poor Nicole, who we were supposed to hate because she cheated, ended up unclear on whether Luke was even living with her at the time. For all his rudeness and bluster and willingness to lash out at people for no reason at all, he is not exactly a forthcoming, candid man. 

Everyone got worse as the series went on, including Luke, but he always had the same very serious failings, traits and tendencies that few women I know would deal with regardless of how great he was at making cheeseburgers and fixing broken appliances. Relationships just magnify flaws sometimes and, in this case, both Lorelai and Luke's flaws clash in a way that makes them a disastrous romantic match. 

Even long before the April thing, soon after starting to date Lorelai he claims he's all in and then has one of his psycho meltdowns at Richard and Emily's second wedding a few episodes later and ignores her, so I guess suddenly he was "out" because of reasons he didn't want to bother to share with the girlfriend in question? LOL. Good to know we can count on you to remain stable and consistently true to your word, Luke. Usually unpredictable guys can be at least be a little exciting, like how Rory viewed Jess, but Luke is this boring lump, he just has emotional problems. It actually hurt me to see Lorelai so desperate to explain herself and apologize for Emily and Christopher while he gave he gave her the silent treatment. It's too bad that she got back together with him after that.Would he have even talked to Lorelai again if Lorelai's mother hadn't come by the diner to tell him he could? I wish Lorelai had told him when he shows up at her door that it was too late, that she had realized during the time he was ignoring her that she couldn't date anyone who overreacts to a scary degree to every little thing and handles even minor conflict like such a baby and to go be his rage-y tantrum throwing self elsewhere. 

When Rachel, Nicole and Lorelai all finally get around to dumping Luke after having enough of his passive-aggressive BS and demonstrated incapability of communicating like I'd expect of someone a fourth of his age, Luke always acts like he's the one we're supposed to feel sorry for instead of realizing he's part of the problem, a very big part. I wish Rachel, Nicole and Lorelai would all get together and bond over what an ass he is. 

I know few others feel this way, which is why it's so helpful this thread exists. It was actually shocking and reassuring to see a fair number of people here who don't get the love for Luke any more than I do. I'd started to think I was literally the only person in the entire Gilmore Girls fandom who didn't love him! 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Even long before the April thing, soon after starting to date Lorelai he claims he's all in and then has one of his psycho meltdowns at Richard and Emily's second wedding a few episodes later and ignores her, so I guess suddenly he was "out" because of reasons he didn't want to bother to share with the girlfriend in question? LOL.

I could see why Luke might consider that situation to just be too much for him, and break up with Lorelai.  I don't think I'd want to be in a relationship where the parent of the girlfriend is openly plotting against me, and the ex is still around and proclaiming his love.  It's too much drama, and totally not worth it.  Having said that, I agree that Luke's storming off from the event and silent treatment was ridiculous.

[nolieblue]

Quote

Even long before the April thing, soon after starting to date Lorelai he claims he's all in and then has one of his psycho meltdowns at Richard and Emily's second wedding a few episodes later and ignores her, so I guess suddenly he was "out" because of reasons he didn't want to bother to share with the girlfriend in question? LOL.

I find it hard to blame Luke for his behavior and wouldn't call it a meltdown at all. He'd already been treated horribly by the Gilmore parents, found out that Lorelai lied to him about spending time with Christopher but appeared to get over it. Then he finds out that Emily and Christopher are conspiring to break up his relationship. He wanted some time away from the chaos but Lorelai wouldn't' give it to him. He probably saw years of being treated like crap by the senior Gilmores ahead of him all the while wondering if Lorelai was just waiting around for Christopher to come by again. 

[Kohola3]

Quote

He probably saw years of being treated like crap by the senior Gilmores ahead of him all the while wondering if Lorelai was just waiting around for Christopher to come by again. 

It would seem a daunting task to take on this group of Christopher-centric Gilmores.  They made it clear that Luke was beneath their daughter and Christopher was of "proper breeding and background".  Who wouldn't want to walk away from that mess?  

[dustylil]

1 hour ago, NorthangerAbby said:

LOL! I have a really novel idea. I think the reverend and rabbi should have been written as really sullen, petulant, rage-y, jealous, passive-aggressive jerks who don't know how to communicate like normal human beings and have poorer anger management skills than what we would expect from the average three year old

Actually I am kind of glad they didn't. The portrayal of things religious on this show was crazy enough as it was. The demonically  devout  Mrs. Kim; Jackson lying to God (among other) about being snipped; Reverend Boatwright, the clueless house pet of the senior Gilmores; and the utterly peculiar depiction of the Seventh Day Adventist faith. Sheesh. And I write this as a lapsed Baptist and contented agnostic. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

He wanted some time away from the chaos but Lorelai wouldn't' give it to him. He probably saw years of being treated like crap by the senior Gilmores ahead of him all the while wondering if Lorelai was just waiting around for Christopher to come by again. 

I agree to an extent.  I don't think he saw Lorelai just waiting around for Christopher, but I do think the future didn't look particularly promising, and better to get out sooner, than drag it out. 

[shron17]

Quote

After reading the above post, it reminded me again that Dean and Luke really are very similar, making it all the more surprising to me that fans love the older one who should know better and hate the younger one who's still maturing and not even quite as bad. 

There are some huge differences between Dean and Luke.  For one, Luke didn't sneak around seeing someone his wife asked him not to see and then go tell the other woman his marriage was over and sleep with her before letting his wife know.  To me that's a pretty big character flaw, and way worse than anything Luke did.

Quote

Poor Nicole, who we were supposed to hate because she cheated, ended up unclear on whether Luke was even living with her at the time.

It sounds like you're saying it was okay for Nicole to cheat since Luke didn't seem to be that into their marriage.  But she was the one who suggested putting off the divorce and "dating" and I sure didn't see a scene where he refused to divorce her.  If she wanted to sleep with someone else she should have ended things with Luke first.  And it wasn't Nicole's car Luke kicked but the sockman's, and there was no damage.

Quote

It actually hurt me to see Lorelai so desperate to explain herself and apologize for Emily and Christopher while he gave he gave her the silent treatment.

You mean when she shanghaied him at Doose's and started discussing their business in front of Taylor and all the people shopping?  That was pretty desperate all right.  Telling someone you need more time to process isn't the same as giving them the silent treatment.

Edited May 4, 2016 by shron17

[dustylil]

16 minutes ago, shron17 said:

Luke didn't sneak around seeing someone his wife asked him not to see

No he didn't. However, he did lend her a tidy sum of money without informing his wife. And then there was that horoscope he carried around in his wallet. He was scarcely a paragon of husbandly virtues

Edited May 4, 2016 by dustylil

[txhorns79]

Quote

It sounds like you're saying it was okay for Nicole to cheat since Luke didn't seem to be that into their marriage.  But she was the one who suggested putting off the divorce and "dating" and I sure didn't see a scene where he refused to divorce her.  If she wanted to sleep with someone else she should have ended things with Luke first.  And it wasn't Nicole's car Luke kicked but the sockman's, and there was no damage.

I think if you have a "husband" who has largely checked out of the marriage, all bets are off.  You are right that Nicole did suggest putting off the divorce, but it didn't end up improving she and Luke's situation.  I certainly can agree that in a perfect world, you should wait until the divorce is requested and papers are signed, but in this case, the relationship appeared to be pretty much over.  It wasn't like they had some kind of relationship epiphany that Nicole then proceeded to destroy by seeing someone else.  

[shron17]

Quote

I think if you have a "husband" who has largely checked out of the marriage, all bets are off. 

I didn't hear either one of them say it was over.  And why would you sleep with another guy but then let your husband spend the night?  Luke ended up with the guy's socks on, after all.  He still had a key to the townhouse and supposedly still had stuff there.  I don't think papers necessarily need to be signed, but both parties should definitely understand it's over before you move on with someone else.

[elang4]

25 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I think if you have a "husband" who has largely checked out of the marriage, all bets are off.  You are right that Nicole did suggest putting off the divorce, but it didn't end up improving she and Luke's situation.  I certainly can agree that in a perfect world, you should wait until the divorce is requested and papers are signed, but in this case, the relationship appeared to be pretty much over.  It wasn't like they had some kind of relationship epiphany that Nicole then proceeded to destroy by seeing someone else.  

I'm sorry but cheating's cheating. Just because it's not a happy marriage doesn't mean it's ok to cheat. I agree that Luke wasn't invested in it but Nicole should have told him that she didn't think it was working either and that they should get the divorce. I don't think Luke would have objected.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I'm sorry but cheating's cheating. Just because it's not a happy marriage doesn't mean it's ok to cheat. I agree that Luke wasn't invested in it but Nicole should have told him that she didn't think it was working either and that they should get the divorce. I don't think Luke would have objected.

I guess I would look at it more as: If one party is no longer invested in the relationship, exactly what relationship are you cheating on?  I'm not saying you shouldn't get the divorce first, only that these things are rarely black and white.    

[elang4]

1 minute ago, txhorns79 said:

I guess I would look at it more as: If one party is no longer invested in the relationship, exactly what relationship are you cheating on?  I'm not saying you shouldn't get the divorce first, only that these things are rarely black and white.    

I guess you're right but I still think Nicole was in the wrong. I'm sorry, I just have strong feelings about cheating. I do understand what you're saying though.

[shron17]

4 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I guess I would look at it more as: If one party is no longer invested in the relationship, exactly what relationship are you cheating on?  I'm not saying you shouldn't get the divorce first, only that these things are rarely black and white.    

If neither party has said they wanted to end it then you are cheating on the relationship you both agreed on when you moved in together.  All Nicole had to do was say I think we need to end it, I'll stay here and you can take your stuff and give me your key.  We don't know that many details about what Luke or Nicole said and did around that time, but if he spent the night there he must have assumed they were still trying to work things out.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I guess you're right but I still think Nicole was in the wrong. I'm sorry, I just have strong feelings about cheating. I do understand what you're saying though.

And I understand your point of view as well.  I've just had experience with this in my life with friends I have known, and I do think sometimes these things are not clear cut. I also felt like Nicole wasn't a very well developed character, and the marriage between she and Luke was more about contrivance than anything else. 

Quote

 

If neither party has said they wanted to end it then you are cheating on the relationship you both agreed on when you moved in together. 

 

But that's my point.  If the other party is no longer invested in your relationship, there's no relationship, whether they have officially given notice or not. 

Edited May 4, 2016 by txhorns79

[dustylil]

Quote

 

Certainly Nicole should have ended their relationship before embarking on another. However, given how much Luke's behaviour at the time resembled his earlier conduct when he wanted to end things with Rachel - moping and keeping his distance from her - I found it difficult to be all that sympathetic towards him. Rachel was a classy lady, Nicole not so much.