Season 6: Speculation

[SeanC]

12 minutes ago, kittykat said:

If anything they might end up at Crasters Keep for a brief moment.  Though the wives might not be so welcoming.  That is if they're there, I think last we saw they hightailed it after the NW mutineers turned it into a rape den.

They burned Craster's Keep to the ground in 405.  We don't know what happened to the wives (they had this kind of illogical empowerment moment where they refused NW help, when by any reasonable measure their only choices were to go with the NW or go join Mance; if the latter, they either died at Hardhome or got on the ships with Jon, which would make the whole thing kind of pointless).

[Constantinople]

9 hours ago, SeanC said:

So, any thoughts on what Dany will be doing for the remainder of the season?  I figured the whole Dothraki adventure would take considerably longer.

Once she returns to Meeren and learns about the deal Tyrion made with the masters of Yunkai and Astapor, she'll need to decide whether she's the Break of Chains or the Breaker of Chains with the Seven Year Itch.

[Alapaki]

With 5 episodes left, a potentially big set-pieces to show north of the Wall, Winterfell and Kings Landing, and apparently the introduction of a whole new family (Tarly), I think it's entirely possible we only get an isolated "check-in" with Mereen until Episode 10.

[kittykat]

I could see that happening as well with the arrival of Team Greyjoy in Meereen by season's end.  

The show has combined some locations the last few episodes but also reintroducing a few with (Riverrun, Twins) and new ones (Horn Hill) so we'll see how much exposition gets crammed in the back half.  I could also do with another Ramseyless episode, hopefully he's absent until ep 7 or 8, I'm assuming he'll make one more appearance before 9.

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

They burned Craster's Keep to the ground in 405.  We don't know what happened to the wives (they had this kind of illogical empowerment moment where they refused NW help, when by any reasonable measure their only choices were to go with the NW or go join Mance; if the latter, they either died at Hardhome or got on the ships with Jon, which would make the whole thing kind of pointless).

Thaaaat's right.  Yeah then who knows how Bran and Meera will get back.  Maybe he'll warg into Littlefinger's Tardis.

[Macbeth]

8 hours ago, SeanC said:

In the speculative realm, Bloodraven said that the Night King's mark was what allowed him to penetrate the wards on the cave.  Meera is now presumably dragging Bran back to the Wall.  Will taking Bran through the Wall have the same effect?  I almost can't imagine this, because that would make Bran the most spectacular screwup in the entire series.

It isn't the 40 odd NW men that are keeping them out.  We know from Hardhome they can't swim or use boats.  It must be Magic that is preventing them.  Bran will bring them in through the gate he had used - which was being guarded by magic.

Bran's been played as a patsy all along.  If Theon had actually gotten his hands on Rickon and Bran and burned them... He would have saved Westeros in the process.

The Starks' motto - "Winter is coming."  Of course it is, they are the ones who bring it about.  It is not a warning, but their calling card.

[Taget]

On 5/20/2016 at 9:49 AM, Umbelina said:

Or, the White Walkers are actually the good guys, ridding the world of destructive forces, and go back to where ever when there are only a few decent people left and let the humans start over and try again.

We assume the good guys running to the rescue are going to be Dany and her crew.  But who are they?  Three dragons who view anyone who is not Dany or a close confederate as food are blunt instruments capable of untold destruction.  She is trying to literally bring the mongol horde across the ocean to kill the men in iron suits and tear down their stone houses.  While perhaps she could somewhat limit their raping and slave taking they are again a blunt instrument of untold destruction.  Then we have the Esos faction of the Lord of Light cult on her side.  And if their prophecies do come true and the Lord of Light and/or his representative make a showing... do you exactly get the impression the Lord of Light is a benevolent God and not some really awful demon who anyone with any sense should live in fear of?  And Dany herself wants to conquer a land she's never seen or knows the least bit about out of family honor and in her words and those of House Targaryen in fire and blood.

I'm pro House Targaryen but I do hold out the possibility that maybe ice is coming to save mankind from fire rather than vice-versa.

[GrailKing]

I just finished the season 6 all 5 episodes for the third or forth time, and after this week, I'm thinking it's going to be my worst case scenario, the last remaining Starks will battle and defeat winter and die saving the realm and ending magic.The realm is saved, the dragons and direwolves gone.  ?

Hope I'm truly wrong.

[Oscirus]

Quote

So, any thoughts on what Dany will be doing for the remainder of the season?  I figured the whole Dothraki adventure would take considerably longer.

Dany at least has to return to Mereen where she will likely fall into conflict with Tyrion. I suspect that she'll fall into an alliance with Yara and Co. Likely end the sons of the harpie plotline for good. Either start heading to westeros or actually be prepared to leave for it by the end of this season.

[SeanC]

4 hours ago, Taget said:

I'm pro House Targaryen but I do hold out the possibility that maybe ice is coming to save mankind from fire rather than vice-versa.

They're coming to save mankind by indiscriminately killing people who clearly have nothing to do with Daenerys?

[Chris24601]

6 hours ago, Taget said:

I'm pro House Targaryen but I do hold out the possibility that maybe ice is coming to save mankind from fire rather than vice-versa.

Why does one have to be good and the other evil? Why can't both the extremes of ice and fire be evil while the people stuck in the middle between the two forces of destruction are the good guys (led by a guy who represents the balance of ice and fire in his very blood)?

[GrailKing]

FIRE kills, ICE preserves stated in the books, small lines but may be foreshadowing.

[Harald Hardrada]

When will they show Lady Stoneheart and the mighty Victarion Greyjoy? at the end of Season 6 perhaps.

[kittykat]

I'm pretty sure Victarion was axed in the show world.  I guess they could technically do Lady Stoneheart since the Riverlands are about to be reintroduced but at this point in the show with all the deviations with Brienne and Jaime's stories, it's unlikely.

I checked the IMDB cast list and it looks like the North is sitting out next episode save Bran and Meera.  However, the page is incomplete, it list Ellie but not Isaac but we know he shows up.  Peter Dinklage is listed as well but not Conleth or Nathalie but, again, incomplete list.

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, kittykat said:

I checked the IMDB cast list and it looks like the North is sitting out next episode save Bran and Meera.  However, the page is incomplete, it list Ellie but not Isaac but we know he shows up.  Peter Dinklage is listed as well but not Conleth or Nathalie but, again, incomplete list.

The IMDb cast list doesn't mean anything before the episodes airs.

[Taget]

11 hours ago, SeanC said:

They're coming to save mankind by indiscriminately killing people who clearly have nothing to do with Daenerys?

If you believe the Ironborn when they say, "What is dead may never die" then perhaps not technically.

But you can have ice as a primal force that extinguishes fire (such as say that of Dragons, R'hllor and any of his messiahs and/or representatives).  We also have only seen limited interaction between them and men.  Yes.  The massacre at Hardhome.  But on the whole it has been against soldiers and raiders.  They have been kept enigmatic enough that perhaps there may be a way to come to terms with them that doesn't end badly.    But of course if we take them as primal they may be beyond good and evil and just a force of nature that has to be endured and waited out as they go about their business.

As for Dany as I said I am pro-Targaryen.  For two reasons.  I believe given the world of Game of Thrones having a monarchy with legitimacy born out in blood (in that they are from a family that has traditionally ruled without question for a long period of time) is an overwhelming positive in that it clamps down on ambition that leads to war and bloodshed.  If the ruler is not a Targaryen the alternative is a "game of thrones" where everyone loses since anyone with a desire and means to rule is "in play."  And more importantly I believe she shows the most awareness of how her decisions and the forces she wields impact people.  While nothing will blunt her overwhelming ambition to take what she believes to be hers there is a deep well of humanity that I think can ultimately make her a great ruler.

That said she controls really powerful forces.  Next to those unleashed by the Children of the Forest perhaps the most powerful ones in the known world of Game of Thrones.  And if there is one theme we have seen in Game of Thrones it is that of actions whether they are altruistic or purely selfish backfiring in ways no one expected.  Dany is bringing powerful forces to Westeros.  And she thinks she can control them and use them to better it.  But if she is wrong Westeros may end up figuratively and literally burned.

[Maximum Taco]

8 hours ago, Harald Hardrada said:

When will they show Lady Stoneheart and the mighty Victarion Greyjoy? at the end of Season 6 perhaps.

Probably never.

They've pretty much effectively combined Victarion and Euron into one character now. I'm assuming Euron will personally go to Meereen to woo Dany (instead of sending Victarion like in the books.)

I've been hoping for a long time for Stoneheart, one of my favourite characters, but each episode we don't see her, it makes it more and more unlikely. But, since the Blackfish has retaken Riverrun, that does give both Jaime and Brienne an opportunity to get back on track for their AFFC storyline, as Brienne heads to enlist the Blackfish's forces and Jaime will probably head to beseige the Tullys. And that storyline relied heavily on Stoneheart, so maybe late in the season, we'll see her? I doubt it still, but who knows, the show has surprised me this season.

[Haleth]

8 hours ago, Harald Hardrada said:

When will they show Lady Stoneheart and the mighty Victarion Greyjoy? at the end of Season 6 perhaps.

Not likely.  Victarion is replaced by Yara (more or less, but with less monkey shit) and Arya may take over some of LSH's role.

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Not likely.  Victarion is replaced by Yara (more or less, but with less monkey shit) and Arya may take over some of LSH's role.

I hope you're right. I can't stand Victarion; wife-murderer, dumb as a stump and pointless. We have two perfectly good candidates to replace him in Yara and Theon if they're planning to try to outmaneuver Euron.  

As for LSH, I would prefer a living, breathing Stoneheart to be honest. I felt like Beric did Catelyn no favors by bringing her back at that point of decay. I'll take Vengeful Arya with a pack of wolves at her side, if not the BwoB. 

[Harald Hardrada]

16 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

I hope you're right. I can't stand Victarion; wife-murderer, dumb as a stump and pointless. We have two perfectly good candidates to replace him in Yara and Theon if they're planning to try to outmaneuver Euron.  

As for LSH, I would prefer a living, breathing Stoneheart to be honest. I felt like Beric did Catelyn no favors by bringing her back at that point of decay. I'll take Vengeful Arya with a pack of wolves at her side, if not the BwoB. 

Didn't Vic murdered his third wife because she was impregnated by Euron? If it weren't for the taboo of kinslaying he would have killed Euron too. I'd love to see some brotherly feud between those two. Vic is probably one of the few from the islands who would oppose Euron's rule over the Iron Islands and provoke another rebellion against their new king.

For LSH, I really do enjoy her story in the books. She become more ruthless and cold-blooded and shows no mercy to anyone sworn to the Lannisters. Let's hope she would make an appearance in the show even if it's just a minor role.

[Harald Hardrada]

18 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Probably never.

They've pretty much effectively combined Victarion and Euron into one character now. I'm assuming Euron will personally go to Meereen to woo Dany (instead of sending Victarion like in the books.)

I've been hoping for a long time for Stoneheart, one of my favourite characters, but each episode we don't see her, it makes it more and more unlikely. But, since the Blackfish has retaken Riverrun, that does give both Jaime and Brienne an opportunity to get back on track for their AFFC storyline, as Brienne heads to enlist the Blackfish's forces and Jaime will probably head to beseige the Tullys. And that storyline relied heavily on Stoneheart, so maybe late in the season, we'll see her? I doubt it still, but who knows, the show has surprised me this season.

If that is true then the show is getting lame and boring each season with all the cool characters gone and we stuck with that annoying Targaryen girl and her lame companions.

[AuntieMame]

Does anyone else think that Jon won't survive the series? Being a prophesied hero destined to save the world generally demands the sacrifice of your life. It just seems to me that this might well be the bittersweet that Martin has alluded to. It seems more and more like Jon is AA and that doesn't bode well for his ultimate survival. The same might be true of Dany. What about Sansa as a virgin queen? Or a new house that incorporates elements of the warring factions which is how the Wars of the Roses ended...with the rise of the Tudor dynasty.

[MarySNJ]

6 hours ago, Harald Hardrada said:

Didn't Vic murdered his third wife because she was impregnated by Euron? If it weren't for the taboo of kinslaying he would have killed Euron too. I'd love to see some brotherly feud between those two. Vic is probably one of the few from the islands who would oppose Euron's rule over the Iron Islands and provoke another rebellion against their new king.

For LSH, I really do enjoy her story in the books. She become more ruthless and cold-blooded and shows no mercy to anyone sworn to the Lannisters. Let's hope she would make an appearance in the show even if it's just a minor role.

Spoken like a true Viking King! ;) 

The thing that I took away from Victarion's POV is that he had to kill his wife because she was raped by his brother and impregnated. I know there's some question about whether it was rape or consensual, but I think it was heavily implied that it was rape, and certainly was in character for Euron if he sexually abused Aeron as is also strongly implied. Because even though she may have been a victim, apparently that didn't assuage Victarion's loss of face vis-a-vis Euron, so he took it out on her. Maybe he harbored murderous or rebellious thoughts about Euron, but  he didn't do anything about it. He would have had to outsmart or beat Euron somehow in a duel, and Vic didn't seem to have to smarts or the skill. Victarion went along with Euron and followed his orders to go make an offer to Daenerys. Victarion harbored the fantasy that he was going to outsmart Euron by marrying Daenerys himself. As if.  I'm not a fan of book Euron either but at least he's a player not a passive-aggressive minion. 

As for LSH, I guess I'm just not a fan of unreasoning vengeance, or hanging people who haven't committed any crimes against her or her family. 

Edited May 25, 2016 by MarySNJ

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, AuntieMame said:

Does anyone else think that Jon won't survive the series? Being a prophesied hero destined to save the world generally demands the sacrifice of your life. It just seems to me that this might well be the bittersweet that Martin has alluded to. It seems more and more like Jon is AA and that doesn't bode well for his ultimate survival. The same might be true of Dany. What about Sansa as a virgin queen? Or a new house that incorporates elements of the warring factions which is how the Wars of the Roses ended...with the rise of the Tudor dynasty.

Nah, I'm actually almost certain Jon will survive for the simple reason that there's almost no narrative benefit to killing a character twice. He already did sacrifice his life. Jon died and got better so he won't die again during the course of the series unless its of old age in a 'distant finale' setup.

Also, saving the world doesn't always require the hero's actual permanent death. If it did Luke Skywalker wouldn't have made it off the second Death Star, Frodo and Sam would have died on Mount Doom, Harry Potter would have had to permanently die to defeat Voldemort and every ending for DragonAge: Origins (a story close in tone to GoT) would require the Warden to sacrifice themselves to slay the Archdemon (instead that only being only one out of four possible ways to defeat it).

Actually, now that I've put those examples out there I'd say its actually pretty rare for the hero to actually permanently die when they save the world.

Dany on the other hand I do think is destined to die and has been from the beginning (I think MMD's prophesy about when she'll see Drogo again was foretelling that she would reunited with her husband and son in the afterlife). But I also don't think she's going to be the real hero either (though she may be remembered that way, because songs and stories are funny things and a heroic death is a great way to get people to overlook your other failings).

As to the rise of a new house... what do you think King Jon would be? He's half-Stark and half-Targaryan so he's already there.

[Funzlerks]

To me, there isn't much in Dany's way. She is magic, has dragons, the two smartest Westerosi, a horde of raping pillagers, another horde of unflinchingly loyal mercenaries, and soon, a bunch of reaving pirates.  And she wants the throne, badly.  To have her end up with it seems anti-climatic.  Like, what is the third act there?  

Jon has no plans for the throne.  He just wants safety, essentially, for himself and others.  It would be surprising for him to end up with anything, really, even Winterfell.  He also follows the hero's journey more than any other character.  The TV show has downplayed the magic of his return to such an extent that TV Melisandre is doubting everything still while the other Red Priestesses are completely sure it is Daenerys.  To me, Daenerys is the misdirection.

 

  And I don't see how any of the good nobles would be okay with the daughter of the mad king coming with her fire breathing dragons and eunuch army with Mongol Calvary and the freaking worst people on the planet - The Ironborn - taking over everything.  And what will Danerys say to Mereen?  "Sorry brown people, you were just practice.  You are totally welcome to come with me to my real kingdom.  I mean it, thank you so much for letting me grow accustomed to being worshipped.  I need a new set of people to fall in line."

Edited May 25, 2016 by Funzlerks

[Umbelina]

I hadn't realized how many things Harry Potter and Jon Snow had in common.  Both orphans, both with hateful mother figures raising them, both fighting the big bad, both killed, both resurrected, both with a loving nurturing male role model that lies to them, both have dark messy hair, both carry long magical pointy things, both hang out in castles...

 

What else?

Edited May 26, 2016 by Umbelina

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Funzlerks said:

And I don't see how any of the good nobles would be okay with the daughter of the mad king coming with her fire breathing dragons and eunuch army with Mongol Calvary and the freaking worst people on the planet - The Ironborn - taking over everything.  And what will Danerys say to Mereen?  "Sorry brown people, you were just practice.  You are totally welcome to come with me to my real kingdom.  I mean it, thank you so much for letting me grow accustomed to being worshipped.  I need a new set of people to fall in line."

To the first point, the opinions of the nobles don't really matter when she has the power to destroy anyone who opposes her.

To the second, Dany is almost certainly going to use her Dothraki horde and her dragons to break the back of the Slave Power in Essos permanently.

[FemmyV]

Just re-watched the teaser trailer for next week. Something about the Dany-Daario "I take what's mine" blip is raising the hair on my neck, making me wonder if Daario is on the path to selling her out to the Harpies.

[Haleth]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I hadn't realized how many things Harry Potter and Jon Snow had in common.  Both orphans, both with hateful mother figures raising them, both fighting the big bad, both killed, both resurrected, both with a loving nurturing male role model that lies to them, both have dark messy hair, both carry long magical pointy things, both hang out in castles...

That is probably the most common trope in fantasy-- the orphan with the mysterious past and prophesied future.  His father/teacher/mentor inevitably dies so he can find his own way.

[Maximum Taco]

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I hadn't realized how many things Harry Potter and Jon Snow had in common.  Both orphans, both with hateful mother figures raising them, both fighting the big bad, both killed, both resurrected, both with a loving nurturing male role model that lies to them, both have dark messy hair, both carry long magical pointy things, both hang out in castles...

 

What else?

They are very common hero tropes.

Luke Skywalker is an orphan (could even be called a double orphan) who has a loving male role model who lies to him (or tells him the truth from a certain point of view) and dies, messy hair, long pointy magical weapon. In fact every Old Republic Jedi can be called an orphan with a magical pointy weapon and a loving role model.

Frodo Baggins is an orphan, who has a loving male role model (two if you count Gandalf and Bilbo) who if not out and out lies to him definitely hides the truth for a time and "dies," dark messy hair, pointy magical weapon

See? All Jon Snow and Harry Potter do is combine these tropes with the "Wicked Stepmother" trope and of course the obvious biblical allegory of a savior being resurrected (I wouldn't be surprised to see GRRM try to subvert this though.)

Edited May 26, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Alapaki]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

That is probably the most common trope in fantasy-- the orphan with the mysterious past and prophesied future.  His father/teacher/mentor inevitably dies so he can find his own way.

Agreed.  And it's not just fantasy.  Joseph Campbell's Hero With A Thousand Faces lays it all out.  And George Lucas admits he followed that blue print.

[Alapaki]

Here's some more fodder for the Bran-as-Time-Traveler mill:

I've been re-reading Book 1, and in Chapter Bran 3 is the one where he dreams of the 3ER for the first time.  The Raven takes him up for a, literal, birds' eye view of Westeros, shows him "the heart of winter", and tells Bran he has to fly "because Winter is Coming".

As Bran is falling he looks down and sees spires of ice rising up towards him, which have impaled "thousands of dreamers before him."  

What if those dreamers were all prior Brans, from prior lifetimes, and this is the first time he found the courage to fly.

[Maximum Taco]

10 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Just re-watched the teaser trailer for next week. Something about the Dany-Daario "I take what's mine" blip is raising the hair on my neck, making me wonder if Daario is on the path to selling her out to the Harpies.

What makes you think that? Daario definitely doesn't seem trustworthy, but over money or any kind of profit he seems to side with the winners. And with a tenuously brokered peace in Meereen and an army of Dothraki, Dany definitely seems like the winning side over the Harpies.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Alapaki]

1 minute ago, Maximum Taco said:

What makes you think that? Daario definitely doesn't seem trustworthy, but over money or any kind of profit he seems to side with the winners. And with a tenuously brokered peace in Meereen and an army of Dothraki, Dany definitely seems like the winning side over the Harpies.

Plus, she already "has" Mereen, however tenuously.  

I took that line to be more informative of the discussion last week about Dany being nothing more than another warlord intent on conquering Westeros whatever the price rather than as some reformer who will lift up the peasants.

[Tikichick]

Thinking about the story overall brought my mind to:

1) Game of Thrones, assuming someone ascends the throne at completion.

2) A song of ice and fire, assuming white walkers battle dragons.

3) A promised prince rises, born of the smoke of battle?

Maybe there is a king no one is considering as battling for the throne, the Night's King.  We know now how he was created and there is thought he was a Stark.  What happens if the Night's King is hit with dragon fire?  Will it result in a song of ice and fire?  Will it render him the promised prince?  Will he be transformed yet again to become the ultimate winner of the game of thrones?

[Chris24601]

45 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

I took that line to be more informative of the discussion last week about Dany being nothing more than another warlord intent on conquering Westeros whatever the price rather than as some reformer who will lift up the peasants.

That's my read as well. Strip away the sympathetic portrayal from the early seasons and we have an exotic magical queen (daughter of a mad king) who is worshiped as a goddess (or at least a savior) who crucifies and burns alive her enemies and is assembling an army of mongol raiders, pirates, blood-magic wielding priests, fanatics in face-concealing black armor and dragons who will 'purge the unbelievers by the thousands' in order to conquer a land by crushing anyone who stands in her way.

She's another Tony Soprano or Walter White... a villain protagonist whose nature is somewhat disguised by her sympathetic portrayal.

* * *

On a completely unrelated topic... we've seen the origins of the White Walkers, but now I'm wondering if dragons aren't basically the same thing from the other side. We know from the books there are actually wyverns in the world that look a lot like dragons, but don't breathe fire. Could someone long ago (perhaps in or around Asshai) have taken some wyverns thousands of years ago and transformed them into avatars of fire the same way the Others are avatars of ice?

Is this more a tale of magic corrupted to two extremes that needs to be undone and not a tale of opposing cosmic forces coming to a head?

[Hecate7]

19 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I hadn't realized how many things Harry Potter and Jon Snow had in common.  Both orphans, both with hateful mother figures raising them, both fighting the big bad, both killed, both resurrected, both with a loving nurturing male role model that lies to them, both have dark messy hair, both carry long magical pointy things, both hang out in castles...

 

What else?

Both are outstanding athletes, both have a redheaded comedy sidekick and a best friend who makes snarky comments, both fall in love with a little redheaded girl, both encounter a nemesis/teacher who seems implacable, both teach their friends how to fight, both are a bit mopey.

[FemmyV]

2 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

What makes you think that? Daario definitely doesn't seem trustworthy, but over money or any kind of profit he seems to side with the winners. And with a tenuously brokered peace in Meereen and an army of Dothraki, Dany definitely seems like the winning side over the Harpies.

A close look at the Season 6 trailer 2 shows what looks like a bomb attack on the palace. Had he not already been offed, I would have assumed Hisdaq was the insider, sabotaging things.

[AuntieMame]

21 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

That's my read as well. Strip away the sympathetic portrayal from the early seasons and we have an exotic magical queen (daughter of a mad king) who is worshiped as a goddess (or at least a savior) who crucifies and burns alive her enemies and is assembling an army of mongol raiders, pirates, blood-magic wielding priests, fanatics in face-concealing black armor and dragons who will 'purge the unbelievers by the thousands' in order to conquer a land by crushing anyone who stands in her way.

She's another Tony Soprano or Walter White... a villain protagonist whose nature is somewhat disguised by her sympathetic portrayal.

* * *

On a completely unrelated topic... we've seen the origins of the White Walkers, but now I'm wondering if dragons aren't basically the same thing from the other side. We know from the books there are actually wyverns in the world that look a lot like dragons, but don't breathe fire. Could someone long ago (perhaps in or around Asshai) have taken some wyverns thousands of years ago and transformed them into avatars of fire the same way the Others are avatars of ice?

Is this more a tale of magic corrupted to two extremes that needs to be undone and not a tale of opposing cosmic forces coming to a head?

Or, is the Doom of Valyria connected in some way to the creation of dragons? And for that matter grey scale? Its definitely a disaster of fire. The place is still smoking hundreds or thousands of years later and the Targaryean family is associated with both dragons and Valyria. Hmmmm. Maybe Dany is the scion of a family that brings cataclysms on a semi regular basis. 

[Umbelina]

20 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Both are outstanding athletes, both have a redheaded comedy sidekick and a best friend who makes snarky comments, both fall in love with a little redheaded girl, both encounter a nemesis/teacher who seems implacable, both teach their friends how to fight, both are a bit mopey.

Quote

On 5/25/2016 at 4:28 PM, Umbelina said:

I hadn't realized how many things Harry Potter and Jon Snow had in common.  Both orphans, both with hateful mother figures raising them, both fighting the big bad, both killed, both resurrected, both with a loving nurturing male role model that lies to them, both have dark messy hair, both carry long magical pointy things, both hang out in castles...

 

What else?

Well, and soon he may have access to a pensieve too, in Bran.  I love that the PTV recaps keep mentioning that!

[Athena]

22 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

Or, is the Doom of Valyria connected in some way to the creation of dragons? And for that matter grey scale? Its definitely a disaster of fire. The place is still smoking hundreds or thousands of years later and the Targaryean family is associated with both dragons and Valyria. Hmmmm. Maybe Dany is the scion of a family that brings cataclysms on a semi regular basis. 

Dragons predate the Doom as I believe the control of the dragons was one of the reasons Valyria was a strong empire.

Between episodes, I've been going through various book info and the AWOIF wiki and the whole Valyria/Essos thing has always fascinated me. The wiki page says this about the Targaryens and the Doom:

Quote

Twelve years before the Doom, Lord Aenar Targaryen's maiden daughter, Daenys the Dreamer, had a powerful prophetic dream along with visions that Valyria would be destroyed. [1] Foreseeing the Doom she convinced her father to leave Valyria before the cataclysm. Heeding the warning Aenar set sail, moving his entire family and their five dragons to the island Dragonstone. [2] Closely allied families, including the Velaryons and Celtigars, went with them, settling on other islands in the narrow sea.

There was definitely some natural catastrophes such as a volcano eruption and earthquakes. The cause was likely magical. Of course, it could mean the Targaryen's did have some hand in it. After the Doom, Volantis and the other Valyrian colony cities asked the Targaryens to rebuild the empire. They refused and instead built up their own strength to conquer Westeros and the Seven Kingdoms.

[Oscirus]

Quote

And I don't see how any of the good nobles would be okay with the daughter of the mad king coming with her fire breathing dragons and eunuch army with Mongol Calvary and the freaking worst people on the planet - The Ironborn - taking over everything.  And what will Danerys say to Mereen?  "Sorry brown people, you were just practice.  You are totally welcome to come with me to my real kingdom.  I mean it, thank you so much for letting me grow accustomed to being worshipped.  I need a new set of people to fall in line."

Admittedly, Tyrion has his work cut out for him but Dany easily has the north once the Starks retake it, thanks to his relationship with Jon and the fact that Cersei out of power means the threat to Sansa is removed. He could likely bring Dorne and the Tyrells ( depending on the outcome of this religious stuff) into the fold. Not to mention the myriad of Targaryean supporting houses that are still out there. Let's not forget that both Dany and Tyrion are single. Meaning that two powerful positions exist to help them along in their alliance making goals.

As for getting out of Mereen, I assume she'll do so and leave greyworm/Missandei in charge to lead in her absence.

 

All this Harry Potter talk and no mention of the power hungry blonde fucker that exists on both shows?

Edited May 27, 2016 by Oscirus

[Constantinople]

33 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Admittedly, Tyrion has his work cut out for him but Dany easily has the north once the Starks retake it, thanks to his relationship with Jon and the fact that Cersei out of power means the threat to Sansa is removed. He could likely bring Dorne...

Given that Ellaria Sand & Oberyn's brats are running Dorne, their primary motivation appears to be avenging Oberyn (and Elia), and that Oberyn died on Tyrion's behalf, I'm skeptical about Tyrion's ability to bring Dorne into the fold.

[DigitalCount]

That's actually part of the reason I kind of hope Tyene is Rhaenys. It makes it so much more meaningful if they can tie it more directly to Elia. Also, Kevan has to die, as does Pycelle, and I can't see this Varys framing Tyrion or killing Kevan in the night. Ellaria however is a different story, and she has special reason to resent Tyrion as pointed out (the trial by combat).

[Funzlerks]

Jon and Tyrion spent like three weeks together, after which Tyrion's family murdered Jon's dad and aided and abetted the murder of Jon's family.  Then he married Sansa, against her wishes.  They have a relationship?  A good one?

Why would Jon be at all okay with Daenerys's army, especially the Ironborn part of it?  Or the sort of tyrannical, no rules do as I say or get burnt style of rule she proposes.  I don't see why good nobles like the Starks would ever ally with Daenerys except on a very temporary, please-save-me-from-ice-zombies way.

Book Tyrion, who is kind of a brat, I can hand wave allying with Daenerys.  I am still unbelieving that TV Tyrion, who has 99 percent of his faults removed, is okay with participating in conquering Westeros.

[Alapaki]

7 hours ago, Athena said:

Dragons predate the Doom as I believe the control of the dragons was one of the reasons Valyria was a strong empire.

Between episodes, I've been going through various book info and the AWOIF wiki and the whole Valyria/Essos thing has always fascinated me. The wiki page says this about the Targaryens and the Doom:

There was definitely some natural catastrophes such as a volcano eruption and earthquakes. The cause was likely magical. Of course, it could mean the Targaryen's did have some hand in it. After the Doom, Volantis and the other Valyrian colony cities asked the Targaryens to rebuild the empire. They refused and instead built up their own strength to conquer Westeros and the Seven Kingdoms.

In an early Dany chapter in Book 1, it's Dany's understanding (so it might not be accurate, just what she's been told) that magic died out in the West with the Doom.  She hopes that there is still magic in the East.  This is before her dragon eggs hatch.

As far as the cause of the Doom, I seem to recall something in the World of Ice and Fire suggesting that the Valyrians' mining below the volcanos there (it seems to have been an extremely volcanic area) triggered a massive eruption that's become known as the Doom.

[FemmyV]

8 hours ago, Funzlerks said:

They have a relationship?  A good one?

They have as good a relationship as is necessary, when one is fighting ice zombies and could use a little help from the local dragon brigade. Further, Sansa can vouch that Tyrion isn't the typical Lannister, something Jon already saw for himself at the Wall.

Edited May 28, 2016 by FemmyV

[Oscirus]

15 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Given that Ellaria Sand & Oberyn's brats are running Dorne, their primary motivation appears to be avenging Oberyn (and Elia), and that Oberyn died on Tyrion's behalf, I'm skeptical about Tyrion's ability to bring Dorne into the fold.

I didn't think about that. Yea, that'll probably be a hard get. Even if they were willing to work with Dany, the question then arises as to why Tyrion would want to work with his niece's killers.

14 hours ago, Funzlerks said:

Jon and Tyrion spent like three weeks together, after which Tyrion's family murdered Jon's dad and aided and abetted the murder of Jon's family.  Then he married Sansa, against her wishes.  They have a relationship?  A good one?

Why would Jon be at all okay with Daenerys's army, especially the Ironborn part of it?  Or the sort of tyrannical, no rules do as I say or get burnt style of rule she proposes.  I don't see why good nobles like the Starks would ever ally with Daenerys except on a very temporary, please-save-me-from-ice-zombies way.

 

Tyrion taught Jon some very valuable lessons at the wall, saved his life and even shaped the way he interacted with/led the people at the wall. I would say that they have a very good relationship. As to your other points, as Femmy pointed out, Sansa can vouch for Tyrion's actions at King's landing since she didn't seem to have too much of a problem with him after she left.

Why wouldn't Jon back Dany, she has a claim and she's basically seen as a great emancipator. The Iron born will be a hard sell. Especially since I don't see Jon so readily forgiving Theon. But I suspect by that point it will be Yara's iron born vs Euron's so it could become a marriage of convenience.

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Why wouldn't Jon back Dany, she has a claim and she's basically seen as a great emancipator. The Iron born will be a hard sell. Especially since I don't see Jon so readily forgiving Theon. But I suspect by that point it will be Yara's iron born vs Euron's so it could become a marriage of convenience.

First, because the North isn't interested in bending the knee to anyone who isn't a Stark. Second, because before she gets to the North, word will reach them of all the murdering and raping and pillaging her Dothraki army is doing in the south (no matter how tight her reins on them are it will happen), plus alliance with the same Ironborn who attacked the North (Euron would be an easier sell because he was off 'gallivanting' while Yara and particularly Theon were actually involved in attacks on the North). Lastly, Mel might be able to provide some insight into what the Red Priests will be up to (at this point Mel feels like something of an apostate like Thoros).

While there are stories of her freeing the slaves, there are also surely stories spread by her enemies of how she reneges on deals, crucified and burned people alive and everyone who did not abase themselves properly to her mad whims shared such fates. Plus the Red Priests will happily be spreading tales of how Dany's children will be burning unbelievers by the thousands in the name of their god.

The short version is that Dany's going to have the reputation of being a Mad Queen leading the Evil League of Evil in a campaign of conquest and will slaughter anyone who does not fall down in worship of her and seeks revenge against anyone whose family once opposed her family (which would include the Starks of Winterfell).

The final act twist of this story is that Dany's isn't the hero... she's the villain protagonist with a sympathetic POV. She is The Stallion Who Mounts The World and according to prophecy she will burn cities, trample nations into dust and those who don't die opposing her will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in their grief. That last bit is exactly what Cat did to herself at the Red Wedding and its said that Dany will be so terrible that this level of grief will be COMMON.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Chris24601

[Maximum Taco]

7 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Tyrion taught Jon some very valuable lessons at the wall, saved his life and even shaped the way he interacted with/led the people at the wall. I would say that they have a very good relationship. As to your other points, as Femmy pointed out, Sansa can vouch for Tyrion's actions at King's landing since she didn't seem to have too much of a problem with him after she left.

Why wouldn't Jon back Dany, she has a claim and she's basically seen as a great emancipator. The Iron born will be a hard sell. Especially since I don't see Jon so readily forgiving Theon. But I suspect by that point it will be Yara's iron born vs Euron's so it could become a marriage of convenience.

"Why would he back Dany?" is the better question.

Getting mixed up in Southron politics has only caused harm to the North. That's the whole reason they went and declared Robb King.

Why should Jon even care who sits the Iron Throne? I'm sure he sees all monarchs as the same too, excepting maybe Stannis, he is after all the only one who came to the Night's Watch's aid when called upon.

He's not really in a place to be picky over getting help to fight the WW, and I'm sure he'd readily accept Dany's help and dragons in that battle, but unless Dany threatens to set the North aflame if he doesn't swear fealty to her I see no reason for him to bow to Daenerys or commit the North to her cause.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[paigow]

On 26/05/2016 at 2:37 PM, Hecate7 said:

Both are outstanding athletes, both have a redheaded comedy sidekick and a best friend who makes snarky comments, both fall in love with a little redheaded girl, both encounter a nemesis/teacher who seems implacable, both teach their friends how to fight, both are a bit mopey.

But Harry knows lots of stuff...Jon knows _ _ _ _ _ _ _