Season 6: Speculation

[nksarmi]

On 5/25/2016 at 7:28 PM, Umbelina said:

I hadn't realized how many things Harry Potter and Jon Snow had in common.  Both orphans, both with hateful mother figures raising them, both fighting the big bad, both killed, both resurrected, both with a loving nurturing male role model that lies to them, both have dark messy hair, both carry long magical pointy things, both hang out in castles...

 

What else?

Both fall in love with redheads. :)

[Umbelina]

On 5/25/2016 at 4:28 PM, Umbelina said:

I hadn't realized how many things Harry Potter and Jon Snow had in common.  Both orphans, both with hateful mother figures raising them, both fighting the big bad, both killed, both resurrected, both with a loving nurturing male role model that lies to them, both have dark messy hair, both carry long magical pointy things, both hang out in castles...

 

What else?

 

On 5/26/2016 at 11:37 AM, Hecate7 said:

Both are outstanding athletes, both have a redheaded comedy sidekick and a best friend who makes snarky comments, both fall in love with a little redheaded girl, both encounter a nemesis/teacher who seems implacable, both teach their friends how to fight, both are a bit mopey.

 

On 5/27/2016 at 8:06 AM, Umbelina said:

Well, and soon he may have access to a pensieve too, in Bran.  I love that the PTV recaps keep mentioning that!

 

On 5/27/2016 at 11:06 AM, Oscirus said:

 

 

All this Harry Potter talk and no mention of the power hungry blonde fucker that exists on both shows?

 

52 minutes ago, paigow said:

But Harry knows lots of stuff...Jon knows _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Jon's learning, Harry knew nothing in the beginning either.

Adding one more!

Dragons!

Edited May 28, 2016 by Umbelina

[Oscirus]

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First, because the North isn't interested in bending the knee to anyone who isn't a Stark. Second, because before she gets to the North, word will reach them of all the murdering and raping and pillaging her Dothraki army is doing in the south (no matter how tight her reins on them are it will happen), plus alliance with the same Ironborn who attacked the North (Euron would be an easier sell because he was off 'gallivanting' while Yara and particularly Theon were actually involved in attacks on the North). Lastly, Mel might be able to provide some insight into what the Red Priests will be up to (at this point Mel feels like something of an apostate like Thoros

"

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Why would he back Dany?" is the better question.

I'm pretty sure that Jon would back having someone on the throne that wasn't a Stark hater. Not to mention the fact that Sansa still has a price on her head, for those reasons alone, I believe that Jon would back Dany.

As for rumors of Dany and her soldier's  activities, unless Littlefinger gets in Jon's ear, Jon has no way of knowing what Dany and her army's been up to. Besides the fact that I'm pretty sure that Dany's putting an end to all the misogynistic tactics of the Dothraki. I will agree that the ironborn alliance will be a tough pill to swallow, but desperate times, yada yada yada.

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The final act twist of this story is that Dany's isn't the hero... she's the villain protagonist with a sympathetic POV. She is The Stallion Who Mounts The World and according to prophecy she will burn cities, trample nations into dust and those who don't die opposing her will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in their grief. That last bit is exactly what Cat did to herself at the Red Wedding and its said that Dany will be so terrible that this level of grief will be COMMON.

I do agree that Dany will be the final villain but that'll be after she sits on the throne. Hell, my hypothesis for the final battle is jon vs Dany with Tyrion being forced to come from the rock and pick a side.  But for now, I think that she'll have enough backing to get to the throne and will likely have Jon's support.

[paigow]

Dany should hate Starks and Lannisters for supporting Robert the Usurper...Tyrion is still alive for pragmatic reasons...Jon needs to prove a family connection or he gets roasted. Sansa may get a pass if Tyrion can provide a convincing argument.

[Athena]

In the books, there is precedent for the North bending to the Targaryens. During the War of Conquest, Torrhen Stark assembled his men to face Aegon I, but found he was out-manned when he saw 45,000 men and three dragons. He became the King who Knelt and was the first "Warden of the North".

I think Dany and Jon would find common ground especially with the White Walker threat. Tyrion would help broker it and so would the whole R+L = J theory if it somehow gets proven. Jon is pragmatic; he's not going to fight someone with three dragons and two huge armies especially when he needs help facing off the threat from beyond the wall.

I don't necessarily think Dany will stay or actually get the throne, but she'll be close and she is pivotal to the bigger fight.

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I'm pretty sure that Jon would back having someone on the throne that wasn't a Stark hater. Not to mention the fact that Sansa still has a price on her head, for those reasons alone, I believe that Jon would back Dany.

The Starks were one of the families Dany specifically listed in her "enemies I must destroy" category in her "Break the Wheel" speech. I don't think she's interested in another other than the complete subjection of anyone she believes opposes her whims. Fortunately, Jon and Sansa won't just have to bend over and take it. They've got some advantages of their own.

1 hour ago, Athena said:

I think Dany and Jon would find common ground especially with the White Walker threat. Tyrion would help broker it and so would the whole R+L = J theory if it somehow gets proven. Jon is pragmatic; he's not going to fight someone with three dragons and two huge armies especially when he needs help facing off the threat from beyond the wall.

My hunch is that the war with the Others is going to be more a case of Jon getting as many people as possible out of the way and let the avatars of Ice and Fire destroy each other. Dany and the Others are the Flood, Winterfell is the Ark.

If it does come to a fight between Jon and Dany though, I think that Bran (or Jon himself in the books) will be the Stark's secret weapon in dealing with the dragons by warging them. Bran can either turn them against each other or just hold them so they can be slain in more conventional ways. For that matter Dany may be fireproof, but how well can she survive a freefall from a thousand feet if her dragon is warged into throwing her off, flying at full tilt into a mountain or dropping out of the sky like a rock?

As for the other forces... the swamps of the Neck have always been a natural chokepoint that has kept the North from being conquered without dragons. That terrain would grind the Dothraki hordes to a standstill. While 7500+ Unsullied are an effective fighting force, they aren't an overwhelming one against armored cavalry and archers (not to mention a warged dragon) and are going to be needed all over the rest of the Seven Kingdoms to maintain order (because while the Dothraki are excellent raiders, they lack the discipline needed to be more than a plague on the land. Similarly, the North has already repelled the Ironborn once and they'd be utterly ruthless in repelling them again.

Basically, Jon has, or will soon have, everything needed to keep the North a free and independent kingdom. He doesn't have to BEAT Dany to win, he just needs to make it so costly that Dany can't afford the risk of invading. Take out ONE dragon via warging and Dany won't risk another on a Northern campaign until she can breed the remaining two (or she finds a way to neutralize Bran or any other skinchangers they dig up). In the meantime they can attempt some diplomacy to show Dany that the Starks are NOT who she thinks they are (i.e. tyrants who grind the common people beneath 'the wheel').

[sunflower]

Spoiler

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For that matter Dany may be fireproof, 

I don't know, but is Dany fireproof from dragonfire?  

 

 

 

[sunflower]

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Dany may be fireproof,

is she immune to dragonfire though?  

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, sunflower said:

is she immune to dragonfire though?  

The question is... is she immune to a couple tons of dragon sitting on her? You don't need the dragon's breath to take out Dany via warging.

[Maximum Taco]

23 hours ago, sunflower said:

is she immune to dragonfire though?  

Does it matter? If one of her dragons wants to kill her it hardly needs its breath. She's a little tiny pink thing.

Do you need fire breath to step on a cockroach?

[Macbeth]

Who is getting Heartsbane?  Sam can't use it properly. You need a Jon or Brienne (both already have valyrian steele) to make really good use of it.

I think if it was up to Sam - it would be Edd.  But I think Edd isn't making it past episode 10 this season - titled

Spoiler

The Winds of Winter.

Not with the Night King's key to the wall- Bran- heading with great speed (Thanks to Benjen) towards Edd and the remaining red shirts. 

I think it is Jorah.  Jorah will end up at the Citadel looking for the cure - cause if anyone would have it - it would be Maester University.  Jorah will seek out Sam - as he was one of the very last people to see his father alive.  Then hearing about the massive amount of shit that is going on in Westeros and how fire is an important tool  - Jorah will steal Heartsbane and kidnap Sam to bring him to Dany to tell her what's going on.  I believe Sam might want to rejoin Jon and help him given what happened - but Jorah will not be down with that plan.   And we know how possessed Jorah can  be when he is on a mission.

Regarding Dany - i don't think she will need a 1,000 ships as I don't believe all of the unsullied will be accompanying her.  They are there to free slaves and that is what is motivating a good portion of that army.  I believe that Missendei and Grey Worm are getting a crash course from Tyrion and Varys on how to run a city as they will be staying behind to rule when Dany takes off on her dragon.

[Maximum Taco]

26 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Who is getting Heartsbane?  Sam can't use it properly. You need a Jon or Brienne (both already have valyrian steele) to make really good use of it.

Maybe it's just me but I think Sam is going to keep it. The whole point behind the scenes at Horn Hill was that Sam is worthy of the sword and the seat of House Tarly. It hardly goes towards proving that point to steal the sword and be like "Oh I can't use this, here you take it."

Also as he says to Gilly, it's not his father's sword, it's his family's sword, and that point taken a step further means it's not his sword either. It's not Sam's to give away, although it is his birthright. And as much as Sam dislikes his father, he does care for his family, I don't think he'd willingly hurt them by giving away an heirloom.

I guess it's possible that someone might steal it, but I don't think so, in the end that would further highlight Sam's unworthiness to possess it.

I hope he keeps it anyway.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[SeanC]

23 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Regarding Dany - i don't think she will need a 1,000 ships as I don't believe all of the unsullied will be accompanying her.  They are there to free slaves and that is what is motivating a good portion of that army.  I believe that Missendei and Grey Worm are getting a crash course from Tyrion and Varys on how to run a city as they will be staying behind to rule when Dany takes off on her dragon.

The Unsullied are infantry and less than 8000 in number.  Compared to Dany's gigantic horde of mounted cavalry, the portion of the projected 1000 ships necessary for them would be very small, so even if they were left behind (which Dany clearly isn't planning to at this point) Dany would still need several hundred.

[Chris24601]

Yeah, the thousand ships is mostly for the Dothraki... and the fact that the number floated is actually 1000 ships and not the hundred or so that Yara/Theon made off with gives me the sinking feeling that it WILL be Euron who teams up with Dany and not the more reasonable Greyjoys (who will either end up dead or siding with team Stark... a.k.a. Team Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things).

That realization coupled with yet another tick-box on "the How to be an Evil Overlord's" checklist that technically started last week but I only noticed tonight is just another confirmation of what I've been saying... Dany is the co-villain of the story (the Fire to the Night King's Ice).

For those keeping score;

1. Exotic Queen and daughter of a Mad King with magical powers and a bond with creatures generally seen as demonic outside of modern fantasy.
2. Has started dressing all in black (new as of last episode) and leads from the back of a black and blood red dragon.
3. Her current home is atop a ziggurat with man-eating dragons in the basement.
4. Is worshiped by her followers as a goddess (or at least some sort of Dark Messiah).
5. Has a religion devoted to burning unbelievers alive by the thousands backing her and proclaiming her the avatar of their god.
6. Indiscriminately crucifies and burns alive those she sees as her enemies.
7. Her key advisors consist of a drunken dwarf vizier, a eunuch master of spies and an amoral sellsword (who brings out the worst in her).
8. Has an elite force of fanatically loyal troops dressed in identity concealing black armor.
9. Her army is a horde of murdering, raping and pillaging mongol warriors.
10. Her navy will be a horde of murdering, raping and pillaging pirates.
11. Her goal is to invade a land she's never set foot in before in her life with an army of foreign murderers and plunderers, crush its existing social order and replace it with her absolute rule. She intends to kill anyone who opposes her and tear down their castles (the bastions of civilization in a medieval society) and destroy the families who dared rise up against the Mad King who once oppressed them.

For those wondering why Dany never seems to suffer any setbacks or reverses, I point to the White Walkers and Super-Ramsey as exhibits A and B. The villains always win until its time for them to lose. The only difference is that Dany has a better PR department.

Oh, and there's one other critical item on the Evil Overlord list that's extremely relevant too...

12. Has a secret nephew who is unknowingly the True King, also has the blood of ancient heroes tied to Dany's opposite element in his veins and is assembling a rag tag band of sympathetic cripples, bastards and broken things to oppose both the sadistic usurper of his adopted father's kingdom and then go on to fight the greatest threat the realm has ever faced.

[ElizaD]

About the Northern houses in the next episode, I think Manderly should choose the Starks (even though his banners weren't spotted) because the casting call says "Fletcher" shifts allegiances and if he gives a pro-Stark speech that turns pro-Bolton that'll be extremely strange. Glover will probably be the one who says no. Cerwyn should choose the Starks, or else the message will be that Ramsay was right to flay the former Lord Cerwyn and doesn't have to face any consequences for being a mad dog like Roose warned since the son is too afraid to be loyal to the Starks or seek revenge. If Manderly, Glover and Cerwyn all choose the Boltons (leaving Jon and Sansa with a couple of minor houses like Mormont), that would give Ramsay not just the two big armies of Karstark and Umber but the genuine support of the Northern majority. That would mean that the North doesn't remember and the Starks have lost their moral claim to Winterfell since the rule of a psychopath like Ramsay is considered a better option than Ned's children. I hope that Jon/Sansa end up getting the support of the majority, but they just don't have enough soldiers left (so Sansa writes to Littlefinger for help).

Looks like someone (Glover?) might challenge Sansa Lannister Bolton's right to the Stark name.

[Eyes High]

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Exotic Queen and daughter of a Mad King with magical powers and a bond with creatures generally seen as demonic outside of modern fantasy.

If R+L=J, Jon will be the Mad King's grandson, so I hardly see that being the Mad King's daughter is such a great strike against Daenerys. And Jon (and the Starks) have a bond with dangerous animals associated with demons, animals that also eat men (at least in Nymeria's case). If Dany having dragons makes her Bad, then by your logic, the Starks having wolves makes them equally Bad.

It's too early to write Dany off as a villain. Her speech was perfectly pitched to appeal to the Dothraki while having subtle differences from Khal Drogo's speech: unlike Drogo's speech, there's no reference to raping women or enslaving them, and that was entirely deliberate. Dany is speaking the Dothraki's language, literally and figuratively, while carefully trying to reshape their way of thinking. I think she feels the same sense of responsibility for the women who suffer under the Dothraki that she did for the slaves suffering under the masters; if she abandons the Dothraki to their shitty rapist ways without trying to change them, she knows that a lot of people will suffer. It's no coincidence that she heard a story about a young khaleesi brutalized by her asshole husband for the great sin of bearing a daughter shortly before she decided to kill all the khals and replace them. Dany's compassion motivated her, not her megalomaniacal ambitions; it was when she was looking at the khaleesi, a walking and talking symbol of the khals' assholery, that she said "We can do better than that" (or similar). She couldn't just walk away and abandon all those women to suffer. Personally, it's hard for me to take much issue with someone who decides that a bunch of rapist fuckheads who think that humiliating and gang raping women is the funniest shit ever deserve to die screaming, or to view that as some sort of character flaw.

Also, Dany openly wept in 6x05 when a man who had betrayed her and whose actions had imperiled her unborn child revealed that he had contracted a fatal disease. Her great, beating heart is very much on display. 

I do think that Daario's comment that Dany wasn't meant to sit in a chair in a palace and that she's a conqueror (and not, he seemed to be saying, a ruler) was a bit of a tell from the writers that she's not going to be sitting on the throne at the end of all this, but that doesn't mean that she's some sort of sadistic monster in the making. 

More generally, ASOIAF has a lot of comically horrible characters running around (Euron, Ramsay, etc.), so I'm always a little surprised when characters like Tyrion (who does some vile shit in the books) and Dany are decried as horrible villains. GRRM seems to have these other obscenely villainous characters for the primary purpose of making the leads look better in comparison. No matter what Dany has done, in the books or in the show, she's an angel compared to Euron or Ramsay, and I expect that is deliberate.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Eyes High

[ParadoxLost]

I think BenJen's return is another sign that the R+L =J theory is unfolding.

Because the problem with Bran seeing the past is that if he sees something critical in the past, then the viewers know and Bran knows but everyone else who hears Bran's tale has no reason to take his word for it.  Its not going to rally the North around Jon.  But if BenJen can corroborate and/or knows where Ned left proof, then that starts rallying the North to fight for Jon and take the Iron Throne.

[Alapaki]

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

Looks like someone (Glover?) might challenge Sansa Lannister Bolton's right to the Stark name.

That was interesting.  I'm guessing someone challenges her call to attack and kill Ramsey after she married him.  Hence "I did what I had to do".

Re: Dany turning out "evil".  My first observation would be that few characters in ASOIAF have been portrayed as completely good or evil.  

But it does seem like more than a few reviewers/critics (who I assume have access to D&D through interviews and such) are characterizing Dany as a "warlord".  Although it's always sort of been there, I think that's a new portrayal for her.  And I think it may be significant, coming so late in the series.  

Perhaps they're setting her up for a redemption arc, with someone like Jorah reminding her that she's not her father or her brother?

[Chris24601]

13 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

Perhaps they're setting her up for a redemption arc, with someone like Jorah reminding her that she's not her father or her brother?

The person who could have done that was Ser Selmy, who actually KNEW her father and brother. But he was killed off on the show during season four (which is after the big meeting where GRRM laid out all the endings to the showrunners) so my guess is that he was killed off precisely because in the books Dany doesn't get that sort of reminder and doesn't get a redemption arc.

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

The person who could have done that was Ser Selmy, who actually KNEW her father and brother. But he was killed off on the show during season four (which is after the big meeting where GRRM laid out all the endings to the showrunners) so my guess is that he was killed off precisely because in the books Dany doesn't get that sort of reminder and doesn't get a redemption arc.

Selmy was killed off in Season 5 so that Tyrion could take his place as Dany's right hand.  And seeing as show!Tyrion is pretty close to spotless, morally, I don't think he's going to become a villain's accomplice.

[Alapaki]

Jorah knew Viserys, and everyone knew about the Mad King.  

[SeanC]

I will say, based on this season, dragontaming is not being set up as being particularly difficult.  Dany now seems to be able to command Drogon without trouble, and Tyrion's intro to Viserion and Rhaegal went very well.

[ParadoxLost]

28 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Selmy was killed off in Season 5 so that Tyrion could take his place as Dany's right hand.  And seeing as show!Tyrion is pretty close to spotless, morally, I don't think he's going to become a villain's accomplice.

Early on, it seemed like Dany had been taught from childhood that the masses were just waiting for their family to return to rule them and free them from their oppressors.  Dany has always seemed surprised or confused that those she conquers don't universally thank her for disrupting the lives they are used to with bloodshed and mayhem even though her intentions are "good".

She's coming off more warlord like right now because she's more Dothraki like in her thinking and her audience is of a like mind.

Tyrion is in Mereen solely to remind Dany that Westeros may not love their current rulers but they don't exactly remember the Targaryen all that fondly and that raping a pillaging their way across Westeros with Dragons burning their villages isn't going to exactly endear her to the people who just want to be left alone and not used as fodder in the war machine. 

[Oscirus]

43 minutes ago, SeanC said:

  And seeing as show!Tyrion is pretty close to spotless, morally, I don't think he's going to become a villain's accomplice.

Tell that to Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey.  He might leave if she becomes a full blown villain. But he won't have a problem working with her at first.

[ParadoxLost]

Its interesting what it says about this show that most of the reaction to Brienne and Jamie both heading toward Riverrun is that maybe this will be what puts Jamie firmly back on the path of honor and redemption, fighting for the forces of good.

Me, I'm thinking that they turned the tide on killing the heroes at the red wedding only because they were running out of good guys so they moved on to the Purple Wedding and started giving the good guys wins and that the tide will turn again.  Stark reunions and increasing numbers means the other shoe is going to drop.

I think Riverrun, in the best case will firmly put Brienne and Jamie on opposite sides in a permanent way. 

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think Riverrun, in the best case will firmly put Brienne and Jamie on opposite sides in a permanent way. 

Hence the need for that smooth smooth Tormund lovin'... :D

[jjjmoss]

On the one hand, I feel it's a bit late for her to become a villain and be redeemed and save Westeros and survive to rule. 

But D&D certainly don't mind shortcuts and abrupt unearned changes in characterizations/stories, so.

[nksarmi]

I think Dany's best possible arc is that she gets godsmacked with the shock that the people of Westerous perceive her as a villain instead of some kind of "hero" and that she ends up listening to Jon and helps him win the war against the Others - and that ultimately, she dies in that effort. That would allow her to die a hero even though she is on the path to being fear and loathed.

[Conan Troutman]

On 5/26/2016 at 7:47 PM, Chris24601 said:

On a completely unrelated topic... we've seen the origins of the White Walkers, but now I'm wondering if dragons aren't basically the same thing from the other side. We know from the books there are actually wyverns in the world that look a lot like dragons, but don't breathe fire. Could someone long ago (perhaps in or around Asshai) have taken some wyverns thousands of years ago and transformed them into avatars of fire the same way the Others are avatars of ice?

Maybe that someone was going by the name "R'hllor"? I don't think he's an actual god, but doing something like that would certainly explain how he got worshiped and even founded an entire religion. 

5 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

That realization coupled with yet another tick-box on "the How to be an Evil Overlord's" checklist that technically started last week but I only noticed tonight is just another confirmation of what I've been saying... Dany is the co-villain of the story (the Fire to the Night King's Ice).

Generally speaking, I agree that the measures Dany resorts to aren't exactly your standard hero fare. But she's also goodhearted and can be reasoned with, so not exactly standard villain material, either. She made a point about the Dothraki not raping the women in season one, which ultimately led to Drogo getting hurt and later killed by the witch Dany saved. So she's not suddenly going to give every Dothraki or Ironborn free reign to rape and pillage as they please. I'm way more worried about the dragons and her potential conversion to the R'hllor cult, which both I think are tied together. That shit is clearly evil, hopefully see can realize that before it's too late. 

3 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think BenJen's return is another sign that the R+L =J theory is unfolding.

Because the problem with Bran seeing the past is that if he sees something critical in the past, then the viewers know and Bran knows but everyone else who hears Bran's tale has no reason to take his word for it.  Its not going to rally the North around Jon.  But if BenJen can corroborate and/or knows where Ned left proof, then that starts rallying the North to fight for Jon and take the Iron Throne.

We would need Benjen to be able to make it past the Wall for that, though. In his current state and given that Coldhands couldn't get past the Black Gate, I doubt Benjen will make it through. Even then, why would someone who dismisses Bran's claims suddenly go "oh, well, Benjen says it, too, so now it's totally different"? I don't see it. And even if they did believe it, that would make Jon a Targaryen. How is that supposed to win over the Northern houses? 

Nah, R+L=J will come into play, but not like that. I suppose its key importance will be about Dany, who might react to that either very favorably ("Ooh, finally a close relative to marry!") or, well, not so much ("Ugh, another claimant? Die!"). 

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

Its interesting what it says about this show that most of the reaction to Brienne and Jamie both heading toward Riverrun is that maybe this will be what puts Jamie firmly back on the path of honor and redemption, fighting for the forces of good.

Me, I'm thinking that they turned the tide on killing the heroes at the red wedding only because they were running out of good guys so they moved on to the Purple Wedding and started giving the good guys wins and that the tide will turn again.  Stark reunions and increasing numbers means the other shoe is going to drop.

I think Riverrun, in the best case will firmly put Brienne and Jamie on opposite sides in a permanent way. 

Of course the tide will turn again. And I'm fairly certain it will be the NK making his way past the wall, either by casually walking through it thanks to Bran or by bringing it down in a more spectacular fashion (I'm hoping it's the latter, that would be just way more epic, I want to see that gigantic wall of ice come crushing down!). 

As for Brienne and Jaime, the latter needs to get freed of Cersei's hold. That can happen two ways: Cersei will be doing it herself (burning down KL should do the trick), or Brienne will be the one to do it somehow. I think it's going to be the former, as that has been foreshadowed heavily for quite a while now. Or maybe they're doing both at the same time. Jaime did promise Brienne to help Sansa, so maybe he takes to Lannister army up north to fight the Boltons now that the Lannisters have basically rejected him - that would certainly break things up with Cersei. 

[kittykat]

In Danys mind, Ned was the the guy who aided the Usurper therefore he is/was an enemy.  Jorah never contradicted her because he hated Ned as well for his exile.  I'm pretty sure Barristan never told her that Ned was against her assassination when Robert learned she was pregnant (I'm on a re read and I'm not there yet.) I doubt that when she gets to Westeros that she'll have any sympathy for the Starks unless Varys and Tyrion have been giving her info but that is the curse of the unreliable narrator.

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As for Brienne and Jaime, the latter needs to get freed of Cersei's hold. That can happen two ways: Cersei will be doing it herself (burning down KL should do the trick), or Brienne will be the one to do it somehow. I think it's going to be the former, as that has been foreshadowed heavily for quite a while now. Or maybe they're doing both at the same time. Jaime did promise Brienne to help Sansa, so maybe he takes to Lannister army up north to fight the Boltons now that the Lannisters have basically rejected him - that would certainly break things up with Cersei. 

Ooh I like this. Not sure that's how it will go down but I approve the thought.  I was thinking that if the WW are going to be making an appearance south of the wall by seasons end then I can see Jaime looking at the bigger picture and taking the army north instead of south.   If they are finally going the redemption route I'm also wondering if he'll see Bran soon and make some kind of penance with him.

As for next week...

Spoiler

The episode is titled The Broken Man.  The Hound?  Bring on Septon Swearengen.

Edited May 30, 2016 by kittykat
Big fingers, little phone.

[Eyes High]

On 2016-05-28 at 7:09 PM, paigow said:

Dany should hate Starks and Lannisters for supporting Robert the Usurper...Tyrion is still alive for pragmatic reasons...Jon needs to prove a family connection or he gets roasted. Sansa may get a pass if Tyrion can provide a convincing argument.

Book Tyrion wouldn't lift a finger to help Sansa, in my opinion, but I'm guessing TV Tyrion will put in a good word or two if it comes to that.

I'm not sure TV Tyrion is going to stick around all that long if Dany does go full villain. Unlike other villains he's assisted (Tywin et al.), Dany's not blood and commands no family loyalty from Tyrion; TV Tyrion chose to seek her not out of a desire for revenge (as in the books) but because he wanted something to live for and he was lured by Varys talking up Dany's promise as a queen. The only thing keeping TV Tyrion attached to Dany at this point is a belief in her potential. If TV Tyrion sees that Dany is too far gone and refuses to listen to his advice (and there are strong signs that she's going to be less and less inclined to pay any attention to moderate views), he'll probably look for some way of bailing on her, either passively (drinking himself to the point of being useless to Dany and not caring about her downward spiral) or actively (pulling a runner). We'll see.

It occurred to me in the midst of all the talk about Dany potentially turning out to be an antagonist and unfit to rule that it's made clear in the books that Book Varys is backing the wrong pony (Aegon), albeit for reasons not entirely related to Aegon's supposed suitability for kingship. What if Book Dany is the wrong pony, too, and the show merged the two storylines by having Varys believe in and throw his weight behind what he sees as Dany's potential, not Aegon's?

The Meereen plot has felt pretty inert. I'm guessing that shit is going to hit the fan when Dany gets back. According to Daario in 6x06, they were about a week away from Meereen, so Dany should be back in Meereen well before the end of the season (especially given how quickly distances are being covered in Season 6).

Edited May 31, 2016 by Eyes High

[FemmyV]

Quote

For those wondering why Dany never seems to suffer any setbacks or reverses,

1. Dany was born setback. Assassinated parents, life in exile, running from more assassins, with a crazy-ass, abusive older brother who sold her for an army, for family. Dany's Red Wedding happened before the show ever started.

2. Khal Drogo's death was most definitely a setback. Sure, she got dragons out of it, but what have they done to earn their keep, as of yet?

3. Mereen has been two full seasons of setback.

Perhaps that's part of the reason why Dany's story is boring to so many; most of the worst shit in her life happened way, way off screen and in the past. A point in the future may come when Dany's Targ genes turn towards madness, but that hasn't happened yet, nor has there been any sign of it. At all.

[Avaleigh]

4 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

1. Dany was born setback. Assassinated parents, life in exile, running from more assassins, with a crazy-ass, abusive older brother who sold her for an army, for family. Dany's Red Wedding happened before the show ever started.

2. Khal Drogo's death was most definitely a setback. Sure, she got dragons out of it, but what have they done to earn their keep, as of yet?

3. Mereen has been two full seasons of setback.

Perhaps that's part of the reason why Dany's story is boring to so many; most of the worst shit in her life happened way, way off screen and in the past. A point in the future may come when Dany's Targ genes turn towards madness, but that hasn't happened yet, nor has there been any sign of it. At all.

They got her an Unsullied army. (In the second book they earned her cash and gifts. In the show she doesn't wear a crown but that expensive crown that she has is one of the gifts that she's given because she has the dragons.) I'd say they've earned their keep. 

That said, I agree with you that Dany has suffered setbacks and certainly had a more difficult early life than Sansa did. 

Dany was sold and raped during her first marriage and she's definitely suffered setbacks post gaining the dragons. On the show having the dragons kidnapped was a setback. In the books Drogon was crucial to her surviving the House of the Undying but she still would have been stuck there for ever had she not made the right choices while she was inside. Considering how few people seem to survive a trip into the Palace of Dust I thought it was an achievement on her part.

I personally would feel like it was a major setback if I was forced to walk miles and miles while being whipped and having no choice in the matter while my captors are talking about all of the sick things they want to do to me. Does that really not qualify as a setback?

I think losing Barristan was a setback. I feel the same about Jorah. Not only was it a setback when she learned of his betrayal but when they finally make it up, she loses him because of the greyscale. 

She also earned the wrath of the common people and the nobles in Meereen. She was nearly assassinated and lost the husband she married to help bring stability to Meereen.

[FemmyV]

3 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

They got her an Unsullied army. (In the second book they earned her cash and gifts.

Okay, that. But mostly, they just blow smoke out of their asses ;0

[Avaleigh]

On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Chris24601 said:

The question is... is she immune to a couple tons of dragon sitting on her? You don't need the dragon's breath to take out Dany via warging.

I have wondered what would happen if Dany attempted to mount Rhaegal or Viserion since we know a person can only bond with one dragon. I wonder if this is something she instinctively already knows or could end up being mistaken about because she sees herself as the mother of dragons. I'm just thinking of that one kid from the first dance who I think tried to ride his mother's dragon (I can't recall exactly) only to have the dragon throw him off and IIRC the kid plunged to his death. 

Then there was Rhaenyra who was eaten by a dragon. I can't really see that happening to Dany but I have wondered if there will be any consequences for Dany locking Rhaegal and Viserion up and whether or not they'll hold that against her especially since it didn't happen to Drogon.

Another possibility I've considered is what will happen if an ice dragon comes into play. Her Targ blood likely wouldn't be able to help her there.

Thinking of ice dragons makes me think about the spiders that are associated with the Others and I wonder if the show is just going to skip over this. I know Old Nan mentioned them on the show but surely we should have seen one by now if they were going to factor into the show. They've had three notable opportunities where it would have worked to include one so I'm leaning against it not happening. 

[Hecate7]

5 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Thinking of ice dragons makes me think about the spiders that are associated with the Others and I wonder if the show is just going to skip over this. I know Old Nan mentioned them on the show but surely we should have seen one by now if they were going to factor into the show. They've had three notable opportunities where it would have worked to include one so I'm leaning against it not happening. 

 

Me, too. I really, really hope it doesn't happen because I don't want a certain friend of mine to stop watching, which he definitely will if those start showing up.

[AliShibaz]

7 hours ago, kittykat said:

In Danys mind, Ned was the the guy who aided the Usurper therefore he is/was an enemy.  Jorah never contradicted her because he hated Ned as well for his exile.  I'm pretty sure Barristan never told her that Ned was against her assassination when Robert learned she was pregnant (I'm on a re read and I'm not there yet.) I doubt that when she gets to Westeros that she'll have any sympathy for the Starks unless Varys and Tyrion have been giving her info but that is the curse of the unreliable narrator.

Ooh I like this. Not sure that's how it will go down but I approve the thought.  I was thinking that if the WW are going to be making an appearance south of the wall by seasons end then I can see Jaime looking at the bigger picture and taking the army north instead of south.   If they are finally going the redemption route I'm also wondering if he'll see Bran soon and make some kind of penance with him.

As for next week...

  Hide contents

The episode is titled The Broken Man.  The Hound?  Bring on Septon Swearengen.

Could the broken man be Ian McShane? I keep on waiting. Keep on watching. Hoping and praying for Ian. I like him so much. I want to see him. Please oh please do not have him appear once near the end of the final episode and then make me wait the entire off season until I can see him again in Season 7. Some times this show can be so cruel. Not only to the actors. But also to the audience. They just love to make us cry. Bastards!

Umm ... this is "Speculation". So, I hope it will be OK for me to wonder out loud if anyone has any speculation on just who Ian will play and when oh when will he appear?

[AliShibaz]

I've been wanting to express my opinion about Bran's story arc for quite some time now.

Reluctantly, I must admit that I just don't understand why so many people seem so interested in Bran or his part in this story. When I look back at all the scenes involving Bran, I find that I'm just left empty.

I know the White Walkers are an important part of this story and Bran has some connection with them. But this show has spent such a huge amount of time watching Bran and ... to what end? I sure don't know and I sure don't understand. I would think that if all the time the show has spent on scenes involving Bran were removed, there would be so many other scenes that could be inserted that could have contained some really excellent entertainment. If anyone is feeling charitable and would like to explain to me just why Bran is such an important part of this show, I would certainly appreciate hearing about that.

[Conan Troutman]

8 hours ago, kittykat said:

Ooh I like this. Not sure that's how it will go down but I approve the thought.  I was thinking that if the WW are going to be making an appearance south of the wall by seasons end then I can see Jaime looking at the bigger picture and taking the army north instead of south.   If they are finally going the redemption route I'm also wondering if he'll see Bran soon and make some kind of penance with him.

As for next week...

  Hide contents

The episode is titled The Broken Man.  The Hound?  Bring on Septon Swearengen.

I'm not sure, either, but I have an idea: Maybe Cersei kills Kevan? The show made a point how Qyburn is in control of the little birds now and Varys is still nowhere near KL - and has been written way less shady anyway. So I can see how she's ordering Kevan's death and that could both alienate Jaime and also make him heir to Casterly Rock, thereby giving him formal command of the army. Would need to happen very soon though, like next episode soon, so he can get the news and start to travel in episode eight and arrive in time for Bastard Bowl. 

Love your idea of Jaime meeting Bran. That would be great. 

As for next episode:

Spoiler

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Brienne will meet Septon Swearengen and the Grave Digger, plus Ian McShane pretty much confirmed it. Curios how the show will portray Sandor. If the title's referring to him (among others, I assume), I don't see how we could possibly get Cleganebowl. And I'm fine with that, I want Sandor to find his peace, not being thrown into yet another brutal fight. The Hound is dead, after all. 

3 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

 

Thinking of ice dragons makes me think about the spiders that are associated with the Others and I wonder if the show is just going to skip over this. I know Old Nan mentioned them on the show but surely we should have seen one by now if they were going to factor into the show. They've had three notable opportunities where it would have worked to include one so I'm leaning against it not happening. 

I hope we get to see them, but time and budget are big factors against it. Maybe next season, when they do fewer episodes. But there have been talks about a spectacular scene involving the WWs this season, that would certainly fit the bill - if they weren't referring to the episode 5 stuff. 

[Oscirus]

4 hours ago, FemmyV said:

1. Dany was born setback. Assassinated parents, life in exile, running from more assassins, with a crazy-ass, abusive older brother who sold her for an army, for family. Dany's Red Wedding happened before the show ever started.

2. Khal Drogo's death was most definitely a setback. Sure, she got dragons out of it, but what have they done to earn their keep, as of yet?

3. Mereen has been two full seasons of setback.

Perhaps that's part of the reason why Dany's story is boring to so many; most of the worst shit in her life happened way, way off screen and in the past. A point in the future may come when Dany's Targ genes turn towards madness, but that hasn't happened yet, nor has there been any sign of it. At all.

Let's not forget being forced to kill her brother after he turned psycho, and repeatedly being betrayed by people closest to her.

I do think that the pyromania is a hint at madness. I'd say keep her away from the wildfire.

[SlackerInc]

My speculation is whether this whole thing would be better divided into multiple fantasy shows in separate universes.

The ambition of George R.R. Martin is impressive.  And unlike some people, there aren't storylines, characters, or locations I would find it easy to cut.  I like the Iron Islands stuff.  I even like the Sand Snakes!

But it's an awful lot for one show.  They have to keep jumping around, rarely giving us time to settle in on one set of characters for a while.  And even with all those jumps, they generally have to leave out a couple locations entirely within a given episode.

The other problem I see is that there are storylines that are interesting in their own right, but which ultimately start to look pointless in relation to some of the other stuff going on, if you think about it too hard.  A great example of this is all the intrigue in King's Landing with the High Sparrow, the Tyrells, and the Lannisters.  Some people say they are bored with the Kings Landing storyline, but I would be more than happy to watch a show just focused on how this struggle for power plays out, with little if any magic involved and with most of the various other players off the board.

But none of that intrigue is going to matter one whit if and when the White Walkers come flooding south, or Dany and her dragons fly in burning the town to rubble.  Or even if Bran comes along and warps time to fit his dreams or whatever.

So it seems to me there could be a show about the "game of thrones"; another show about White Walkers vs. humans; and yet another about Dany and the Dothrakis, dragons, Second Sons, and Unsullied trying to reclaim her throne (with each show existing in a different world where the other stuff is not happening).  Or the latter two could still be combined, with dragons fighting zombies (as seems likely to ultimately happen).  But certainly the various chess moves in King's Landing seem pointless if the chess board is ultimately going to be knocked over (or incinerated).

[nksarmi]

I know people are naming Dany's set backs because someone said her victories are unearned. I admit that she had a hard life and that's probably why I was predisposed to cheer for her for three books. For three books, she was a scappy, come from behind kid. Even in Meereen she wanted to rule because she wanted to ensure slavery really ended and she wanted to take responsibility for her actions. In book five though, I became increasingly frustrated with her. By the time she is entrenched in Meereen, I was kind of hoping we'd find out that she decides to stay there and ignore Westerous. Once she rejects Quentin, I would have been ok if her part of the story ended right then and there. Or at the very least, if envoys would have had to be sent to her to convince her to come to Westerous because they believed her dragons would turn the tide against the Others. I mean she doesn't owe Westerous anything and it's her right to reject Dorne's offer of marriage. But her ignorant assumption that Dorne would support her without a marriage alliance just proved how very young and unfit to rule she really was. In the books, Dany has bought into her own hype. She operates on this assumption that everyone in Westerous is just waiting on pins and needles for her return and she will be loved and adored when she does. And I could have understood that attitude in book one. But she's been through enough to know better in book five and she should have jumped at the chance to marry Quentin (she could have taken two husbands in the Targ tradition - what the hell?).

Now obviously she didn't because Martin clearly intends to unite Dorne with Aegon's story in the books and the show has just eliminated all of that crap. But back to Dany. On the show, in what are - I believe - attempts to make her seem stronger, D&D have had Dany come off as needlessly cruel. And yes, I do believe Emily has played Dany at times with a touch of madness. In the books, Dany questions rather or not the Targ madness is in her and somehow that makes her seem more sane. On the show, we haven't seen Dany question herself. That would require she talk to someone of course, and unfortunately they just sent away the best person for her to be "open" around. They could eventually do it with Tyrion, but it wouldn't ring as true as it would have with Jorah. However, without small moments on introspection to balance out all the "lets go kill anyone who opposes me" moments - Dany does indeed look like she is on the path to being Jon's ultimate antagonist instead of his partner.

Another thing that really hurts Dany's image as a "hero" is frankly the red priestess. She is every bit as creepy as Mel once was - maybe more. Now that Mel has been totally humbled, she doesn't come off as bad. But you almost have to wonder - who resurrected Jon? Was it even Mel's god or did a different god her hear prayers? Are Jon and Dany fulfilling two different prophesies?

I mean what is the whole Song of Ice and Fire means that poor Jon has to battle both Ice and Fire to save the realm? There are so many ways Martin could go with this and I think that's what makes it all so interesting at this point. Because right now we really can't tell if Jon and Dany will fight with each other or against each other. We don't know if the Fire God is good or evil. We don't know who the hell the Old Gods are suppose to be and if they have any power at all (though I guess they are what powers the Three Eyed Crow). About all we do know - I think - is that the Seven are utterly useless.

Edited May 31, 2016 by nksarmi

[FemmyV]

1 hour ago, nksarmi said:

She operates on this assumption that everyone in Westerous is just waiting on pins and needles for her return and she will be loved and adored when she does.

Everyone except the ones she needs an two armies and dragons to do her convincing for her.

Edited May 31, 2016 by FemmyV

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, nksarmi said:

I mean what is the whole Song of Ice and Fire means that poor Jon has to battle both Ice and Fire to save the realm? There are so many ways Martin could go with this and I think that's what makes it all so interesting at this point.

That's been my read on it for awhile now. Here's the million dollar question to ask;

"Why is it so important who Jon's parents are that GRRM framed it as one of the central mysteries of the entire series?"

Because if all its going to take to overcome the Others is wait for good queen Dany to arrive with her dragons, it wouldn't matter who Jon's parents are at all. But it does matter or it never would have been the plot point that it is.

The follow-up question is just as vital;

"Why is it so important that the answer to the question is that Jon is the child of BOTH Ice (Stark) AND Fire (Targaryen)?"

Because if one element or the other was meant to be a universally good force that can defeat the universally evil force then there's no reason for Jon to not be purely of the good force. GRRM could have come up with a reason for Ned to shelter a pure-blooded Targaryen if that had been important to the resolution.

For that matter he wouldn't have needed to link the Starks to Ice in the first place. At the conceptual stage, he could have made them the Warden of the East (where the Sun rises) and put treacherous types in charge of the North if Ice was to be a universally evil force. He could have made the dragons less savage and the Red Priests more sympathetic (and not burn people at the stake).

But he didn't... GRRM made the conscious choice to link a good chunk of the protagonists to the North/Ice and to depict the dragons as man-eating beasts and the Red Priests as a group that burned people alive as sacrifices to the Fire god.

When you boil it down, the entire premise of the setting is that the world is out of balance and thrown to extremes where even the seasons of summer and winter last for years at a time. Dany/Dragons and the Night King/Others are just personifications of those extremes of Ice and Fire.

But what does Jon represent? He's represents BALANCE. He is both ice and fire in equal measure. Life exists in the balance of those two extremes... too much heat or too much cold kills. If one extreme destroys the other then life perishes. The Red Priest's paradise is a world of endless summer days... without any nights or rains to provide relief from the heat (based on Mel's account the faithful do not burn and do not need to eat or drink so they'll be fine, but most everyone else is screwed). The Others transform the world into endless winter nights... without any sun or fire to stave off the numbing cold.

Jon's task is to maintain the balance so that life can go on. To do that he's either going to have to find a way stop the two extremes either by finding a path to peace (perhaps a sacred union of opposites between the Night King/Dany) or by destroying the dragons and the Others (their minions aren't as important... without Dany to unite them the Dothraki will break apart into warring factions and without the Others, the wights either become finite in number or stop being animated entirely).

My hunch is its going to be a mix of both and that Jon's path is to be more of a Noah than King David; gathering up people to survive the cataclysm that is Ice and Fire mutually annihilating each other and then leading them to rebuild the world in the aftermath.

The fact that Winterfell is likely to be the Ark (or at least the primary bastion of civilization) in this story is one of the reasons why I think Jon/Sansa as Ned/Cat 2.0 makes a lot of narrative sense (specifically the classical circular narrative structure that returns the characters either physically or metaphorically to where the story began in order to contrast how the protagonists have been changed by the events... the Hobbits return to the Shire, Odysseus returns to his wife and kingdom, etc.). The story begins with the King and Queen coming to Winterfell and disrupting the idyllic life of the Stark family. So to close the circle it should end with the King (Jon) and Queen (Sansa) coming home to Winterfell and restoring the idyllic life of the Stark family.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Chris24601

[nksarmi]

Chris24601 - Narratively speaking, your ideas make perfect sense.  I don't get too bogged down in the premonitions that are strewn throughout the books, but big things like what does "Song of Ice and Fire" really mean seem to be hints as to where the story is going in my opinion. I think there are a few options...

At one point, I thought it meant Jon (Ice) and Fire (Dany) but that was before I read all the books. If it's a reference to Jon's parentage - that makes him THE central character of the books. If Jon is THE central character of the books and THE hero of the realm, than it makes it a lot less likely to me that Dany will rule at the end of it all.  And I agree with you that Jon's parents being both Ice and Fire MUST be important.

On the one hand, there is a threat from Ice in the form of the Others and Endless Winter that sounds pretty damn horrible. So stopping that must be good. But Ice/North is also represented by the Children of the Forest, warging, the Three Eyed Crow (who before Bran was a bastard Targ, right?), and of course Starks/Jon.

Then you have the fire god who seems to have chosen Dany and her dragons as its champion and really creepy priestesses who go around burning people alive as its PR department. This god sure as heck seems evil. And as you say endless summer sounds good initially but crops need cycles to grow. Fire can purify but it can also consume.

So both sound bad which is partially why we are left wondering what role Dany is going to play - hero or villain? And while I think we all know that Jon is the hero - the question still remains of how and who will he have to fight to save the day.

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, nksarmi said:

So both sound bad which is partially why we are left wondering what role Dany is going to play - hero or villain? And while I think we all know that Jon is the hero - the question still remains of how and who will he have to fight to save the day.

I think she's clearly going to be a villain, but I think the key point that a lot of theories I've read miss is that it doesn't mean the Others are suddenly the good guys.

There's a natural tendency to try and squeeze things into an easy binary of good vs. evil (i.e. if the Others are evil then Dany must be good -or- if Dany is evil then the Others must be good) so there can be an easy two-sided final conflict. I think that is exactly the expectation that GRRM is trying to subvert with the story. The final battle is not good vs. evil... it's evil vs. evil with a completely outmatched good struggling in the middle to pull out a win.

A key example from another rather subversive author would be the end of the film "Serenity"... the final battle pits the evil Alliance forces against the evil Reavers while the heroes try to slip through and then have to fight elements of both the Alliance (the Operative) and the Reavers to get the truth out and win the day.

An example from within this story itself would be the War of Five Kings; particularly the Battle of the Blackwater. Yes, Joffrey was a straight up villain, but Stannis wasn't much better. He'd already burned people alive for failing to convert and had murdered his brother with blood magic. The good guys in that were Tyrion, Pod, Bronn and Sansa who weren't fighting (or keeping the other ladies calm in Sansa's case) for the King (indeed most would have been quite happy if the king had died in that battle), but to not get horribly killed and/or raped. In the larger sense you had Joffrey and Stannis duking it out for the throne, Balon trying to pillage and plunder and Robb who wanted freedom for the North and justice for his father (or Evil vs. Evil vs. Evil vs. Good).

My sense is that everything south of the Neck will end up being overrun by Dothraki/Ironborn pillagers and many of the noble houses obliterated by Dany in "break the wheel" mode. I think far more of the common people (who are sick and tired of war and know winter is coming) will oppose Dany as a conqueror and she'll end up burning down entire villages ("unbelievers by the thousands") in the name of ensuring the 'peace.' As the prophesy of The Stallion Who Mounts the World states the survivors of her conquests will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief (think Cat at the Red Wedding). My hunch is that at some point Tyrion is going to see the Moral Event Horizon coming and jump ship (if he doesn't it'll be because bookTyrion sticks with Dany because of his desire for revenge and dies for it).

By the same token I suspect that everything north of Winterfell will end up being absolutely depopulated (100% fatalities) by the advancing White Walkers.

I think in the end we're going to get a desperate gamble by team Stark to somehow lure both Dany and the Others into a massive battle with each other so that the dragons and the Others take each other out. Odds are good that Jon and/or some other hero will probably have to take out the Night King and Dany/Drogon personally, but the rest of the armies will end up taking each other out.

In my head the wights would slaughter the Dothraki forces and the Others and the other two dragons would kill each other. Then Jon would duel and defeat the Night King (which causes all the wights to drop dead) while Bran takes out Drogon via warging and Arya mercy kills Dany (who barely survives Drogon falling out of the sky)... but I'm totally open to variations on that theme.

[Umbelina]

I like it!

[nksarmi]

It's not totally lost on me that GRRM calls Tyrion a villain but the show is clearly NOT painting him in that space. I think for Martin, some villains will "win" and/or "survive" but they will be villains that serve a purpose - like Tyrion. I think Dany dies but I'm not sure if she will die as a hero or a villain.

I mean I think Dany will be initially viewed as a villain but I also think on some level, she cares about people. I think there is a chance she could come to realize that while the Iron Throne is "rightfully" hers (unless Aegon is real) - her family didn't conquer because they were good rulers but because they controlled beasts that inspired both fear and loathing. I think there are hints in the books that the Maestars actually had something to do with the dragons dying and I think she will still have to deal with the fact that they don't seem to want dragons or magic back in the world. And the Faith sure as hell isn't going to support her. She is going to be meet with enemies literally on every side. That can only lead to her hurting the little people - which once she does enough of that, she might snap out of it.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jon and Aegon form an alliance in the books to bring Dany to heel. I also won't be surprised if Dany ends up in control of only one dragon and has to face dragon riders herself. In the end, once she gets a reality check - she very well might square off against the Others and die a hero's death. But I think she will go through a bit of a villain trek first. If this is the path Martin chooses for her - she will be more like the Snape of the series or the red dragon rider from Eragon. You know?

 

[Audreythe2nd]

Quote

But certainly the various chess moves in King's Landing seem pointless if the chess board is ultimately going to be knocked over (or incinerated).

They're not pointless if they contribute to that chess board being knocked over.

[kittykat]

15 hours ago, Conan Troutman said:

I'm not sure, either, but I have an idea: Maybe Cersei kills Kevan? The show made a point how Qyburn is in control of the little birds now and Varys is still nowhere near KL - and has been written way less shady anyway. So I can see how she's ordering Kevan's death and that could both alienate Jaime and also make him heir to Casterly Rock, thereby giving him formal command of the army. Would need to happen very soon though, like next episode soon, so he can get the news and start to travel in episode eight and arrive in time for Bastard Bowl. 

Yeah I mean aside from the upcoming Riverlands stuff, the only source material left are the deaths of Kevan and Pycelle to further drive a wedge from the Tyrells and Lannisters from making peace.  Cersei, I don't know.  She doesn't like them but she needs them even if they do act all "You can't sit WITH US" at Small Council.   Kevan is family and Pycelle is Lannister bought and she can't risk losing them and having the Tyrells seize control of Kings Landing with Jaime being away.  Jamie would now technically be heir to CR now that he's no longer KG.  

I highly doubt he will be at Bastard Bowl, there's nothing in it for him to get involved in Northern squabbles.  I was just thinking that while he's at Riverrun reports will come in of the White Walkers returning and realizing that any battle North and South will be moot if the WW makes it south of the wall.  Cersei of course will disagree because Cersei is only about Cersei and that's where the breach occurs because fighting the WW would be fighting with the Starks and all the Southron lords are hellbent in denial about the WW returning.

Damn Chris24601, if that was exactly how the final episodes played out I would be more than ok with that.  I'm picturing D&D in a meeting with HBO all "yeeeeah I'm gonna need you to go ahead and multiply our CG budget by tenfold, that would be great."