S05.E07: The Gift

[izabella]

But that happened before any of the main characters were even born (Aemon was Dany's Great-Grandfather). Sam, the bookish one, didn't know before it was revealed to him, why should we assume Stannis and Mel did?

 

I'm guessing that the Baratheons had a Maester, like all the houses do, and the Maester taught them history of the Houses.  And, in Stannis' case, also grammar.

 

It would have been a big deal for anyone to give up the Throne to go to NW, and I'm sure most would know the relatively recent history of the Targaryan Kings.

[Conan Troutman]

Or Melisandre's just hanging with Stannis long enough to make him attack/sacrifice anyone with Baratheon blood (Renly, Gendry, Shireen) and get crushed by the Boltons and clear the path for the Dragon Queen.  The Lord of Light isn't supporting Dany and Stannis, so one of his Red Priestesses is lying.

 

How do you know that? Maybe he's like LF and hedging his bets. Maybe he doesn't do jack shit and that's simply the misguided visions of the priestesses? I'm not even sure Mel really has good connections to the LoL, she could be just a witch who's mistaking the visions of some sort of magic for those of a god. The only one who seems to be somewhat confirmed is Thoros, who brought Berric back multiple times, which apparently even witchcraft can't do.

You do have a point that Stannis could also be crushed by the Boltons, sacrifing Shireen or not. That's perfectly logical in-universe, but it's also a terribly depressing story to tell. I don't think the show can get away with something like that after the last dark episodes. Most people would still be watching after that, but any emotional attachment will be completely gone and everyone will be rooting for the WW to just kill everybody already.

 

 

But that happened before any of the main characters were even born (Aemon was Dany's Great-Grandfather). Sam, the bookish one, didn't know before it was revealed to him, why should we assume Stannis and Mel did?

 

I hope you're wrong, because that would make for some lazy writing. I don't see any good explanation how that couldn't be a huge story still well known today. Maybe Sam just didn't know the name of that particular Targaryen, assumed he was long dead and simply didn't connect the old dude to the guy from that story at first? But someone like Stannis has to know his history a bit better than some random, young small noble who was just taught to read.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Conan Troutman

[paigow]

The Lord of Light isn't supporting Dany and Stannis, so one of his Red Priestesses is lying.

Pop Quiz ...You reach a fork in the road and encounter 2 insanely hot Red Priestesses. One path leads to an ambush, the other to safety, but your old maester rambled on so much that you can't remember his advice. The only thing you do remember is that one priestess always lies and the other always tells the truth...Think of the single question that will save your life... 

[Conan Troutman]

Pop Quiz ...You reach a fork in the road and encounter 2 insanely hot Red Priestesses. One path leads to an ambush, the other to safety, but your old maester rambled on so much that you can't remember his advice. The only thing you do remember is that one priestess always lies and the other always tells the truth...Think of the single question that will save your life... 

 

What path would Ned Stark chose?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

What path would Ned Stark chose?

Then do the opposite if you want to live.

[Ambrosefolly]

To be fair, I think the character's point was not that most Christians don't live good lives or strive to be good people, only that that is not required as long as one repents before death.  So it is possible to live a life of pure evil and do no reparation except to repent before one's last breath.  Hindus do not view the world this way, so to them it could seem awfully easy. Of course they could revere Jesus and think his teachings about living a good life blend well with their beliefs, except I doubt they could be OK with the instant clean slate, since their religion teaches that one pays or is rewarded in the next life for deeds in this life. 

Sorry if I don't think the opinion of people that believe that if someone is born in the lowest caste must deserve it because they must of been a bad person in a previous life seriously. And what does repent on the death bed mean anyways? Anyone can make a confession and not mean a word of it and are only doing it because you think it will get you out of hell, that isn't the case because you can lie to people, but you can't lie to god. If the premise of Christianity is real, then I would bet a great many people that made death bed confessions went to hell anyways because god knows the difference between sincerity and bullshit. 

[Drogo]

Pop Quiz ...You reach a fork in the road and encounter 2 insanely hot Red Priestesses. One path leads to an ambush, the other to safety, but your old maester rambled on so much that you can't remember his advice. The only thing you do remember is that one priestess always lies and the other always tells the truth...Think of the single question that will save your life... 

 

Would you answer "Yes" if I asked you "Does your path lead me to the Iron Throne which is mine by right without my daughter being dead?

[Constantinople]

Or Melisandre's just hanging with Stannis long enough to make him attack/sacrifice anyone with Baratheon blood (Renly, Gendry, Shireen) and get crushed by the Boltons and clear the path for the Dragon Queen.  The Lord of Light isn't supporting Dany and Stannis, so one of his Red Priestesses is lying.

Perhaps the Lord of Light is hedging its bets.

Or perhaps having two "anointed ones" is one of those jokes that deities find hysterical (stupid humans). After all, the Lord of Light's initials are LOL

 

Pop Quiz ...You reach a fork in the road and encounter 2 insanely hot Red Priestesses. One path leads to an ambush, the other to safety, but your old maester rambled on so much that you can't remember his advice. The only thing you do remember is that one priestess always lies and the other always tells the truth...Think of the single question that will save your life...

Since this is Game of Thrones,

"Which one of you looks better naked?"

[DarkRaichu]

I'm guessing that the Baratheons had a Maester, like all the houses do, and the Maester taught them history of the Houses.  And, in Stannis' case, also grammar.

 

It would have been a big deal for anyone to give up the Throne to go to NW, and I'm sure most would know the relatively recent history of the Targaryan Kings.

 

Except that winners re-write history.  The Baratheon maester may just left a few details out of the footnote of the history of previous dynasty.

 

 

I hope you're wrong, because that would make for some lazy writing. I don't see any good explanation how that couldn't be a huge story still well known today. Maybe Sam just didn't know the name of that particular Targaryen, assumed he was long dead and simply didn't connect the old dude to the guy from that story at first? But someone like Stannis has to know his history a bit better than some random, young small noble who was just taught to read.

 

Or maybe they chose to forget this detail to spare confrontation with the Night's Watch ? Back when Robert rebelled and killed the old king, if he insisted in destroying every single Targaryen he would have needed to go to the wall to kill Aemon and chanced the retaliation from the Night's Watch.  It was easier to sweep everything under the rug and forget about that old dude from previous generation of Targaryens.

Perhaps the Lord of Light is hedging its bets.

Or perhaps having two "anointed ones" is one of those jokes that deities find hysterical (stupid humans). After all, the Lord of Light's initials are LOL

 

 

Hmm, he did not say HOW LONG will the anointed one be sitting in the Throne of Swords ;)  If Stannis anointed king at KL just as Dany comes knocking with her dragons, both LOL mandates are still technically true.

[Drogo]

[Conan Troutman]

Except that winners re-write history.  The Baratheon maester may just left a few details out of the footnote of the history of previous dynasty.

 

But what would leaving out Aemon accomplish? I can see why the Mad King would be portrayed even worse than he acutally was or some other Baratheon propaganda about the rule of previous Targaryens. But writing out Aemon is pretty pointless.

 

Or maybe they chose to forget this detail to spare confrontation with the Night's Watch ? Back when Robert rebelled and killed the old king, if he insisted in destroying every single Targaryen he would have needed to go to the wall to kill Aemon and chanced the retaliation from the Night's Watch.  It was easier to sweep everything under the rug and forget about that old dude from previous generation of Targaryens.

 

I can see why Robert wouldn't do that. Also Aemon was no threat, as he has given up all claims by joining the NW. But Stannis doesn't have to fear any retaliation from the NW, they're not in a position to do much about anything after he just saved them from the Wildlings. They could protest and make angry faces, but that's about it. They'd be needing a new master soon anyway, as they do now without Stannis' interference. He should even get Jon to agree, telling him that this wouldn't be necessary if he didn't spare Mance.

 

ETA: I just can't accept that Stannis doesn't know about Aemon. It's not realistic to keep this a secret, especially since Stannis had to know about Aemon being alive and at the Wall at the time of Robert's Rebellion. It's not that he's a 15 year old boy who was fed some BS stories and lives in a vacuum.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Conan Troutman

[DarkRaichu]

But what would leaving out Aemon accomplish? I can see why the Mad King would be portrayed even worse than he acutally was or some other Baratheon propaganda about the rule of previous Targaryens. But writing out Aemon is pretty pointless.

 

 

I can see why Robert wouldn't do that. Also Aemon was no threat, as he has given up all claims by joining the NW. But Stannis doesn't have to fear any retaliation from the NW, they're not in a position to do much about anything after he just saved them from the Wildlings. They could protest and make angry faces, but that's about it. They'd be needing a new master soon anyway, as they do now without Stannis' interference. He should even get Jon to agree, telling him that this wouldn't be necessary if he didn't spare Mance.

Writing down the details of previous dynasty was rather pointless too, especially if Robert did not want to chance fighting NW (my point #2).

 

Maybe Mel's power only work with the blood of the ones with libido ?  Aemon was way past his prime time ;)

Edited May 28, 2015 by DarkRaichu

[Calamity Jane]

Sorry if I don't think the opinion of people that believe that if someone is born in the lowest caste must deserve it because they must of been a bad person in a previous life seriously. And what does repent on the death bed mean anyways? Anyone can make a confession and not mean a word of it and are only doing it because you think it will get you out of hell, that isn't the case because you can lie to people, but you can't lie to god. If the premise of Christianity is real, then I would bet a great many people that made death bed confessions went to hell anyways because god knows the difference between sincerity and bullshit. 

Politics & religion - two topics on which people can debate endlessly.  And isn't this a little glimpse into the world of Ice and Storm?  Different belief systems with some but not much ground in common.  I've seen articles that state that religion is actually at the heart of this story, and maybe we will see that it is.  

 

Anyway, of course Christians don't accept the idea endless lives of suffering, but Hindus do, and that colors their perception of our beliefs.  All I'm saying.  My own belief is that humans should do the best they can to live a good life, doing as much good as possible, and as little harm to others and themselves as possible.  I don't care in whose name they do it.  

[Conan Troutman]

Writing down the details of previous dynasty was rather pointless too, especially if Robert did not want to chance fighting NW (my point #2).

 

Maybe Mel's power only work with the blood of the ones with libido ?  Aemon was way past his prime time ;)

 See my edit above - I can see why Sam didn't know, but Stannis was an adult man by the time of Robert's Rebellion and he certainly knew about Aemon's backstory then.

 

Him being too old, that I could accept. But it would've been nice if the show bothered to explain, even if only in a short sentence. But I doubt it's about libido. If Aemon is way too old, then Shireen is way too young.

[izabella]

Stannis is older than Robert, right?  Even if not, they were boys at the same time and grew up under the Targaryan rulers.  There is no reason why they wouldn't know that one of the Targaryans gave up his right to the throne and went to NW and his younger brother became King.  Stannis would have learned that as a child.

[annsterg]

In addition to the grayscale being more important than I thought, I have absolutely no doubt that the warm relationship we have seen between Davos and Shireen is critical to what is going to happen. There is no way in the Seven Hells that Davos -- who would not let Mel kill Gendry -- will let Shireen become a blood sacrifice.

[Constantinople]

Stannis is older than Robert, right?

Robert is older than Stannis.

"Robert told me to hold Storm's End, so I held it. Then he told me he was giving it to Renly, so I gave it up. Insult or no, I gave it up because Robert was my older brother and he was the king and I've always done my duty." - Stannis in The Prince of Winterfell, Season 2 Episode 8.

 

Even if not, they were boys at the same time and grew up under the Targaryan rulers.  There is no reason why they wouldn't know that one of the Targaryans gave up his right to the throne and went to NW and his younger brother became King.  Stannis would have learned that as a child.

If they were taught it, I very much doubt that Robert remembered. It's not the sort of thing that would interest him at all.

No comment on Stannis.

[Jaded Sapphire]

Pretty sure it has to Baratheon blood to work for a Baratheon. That lady supporting Dany in Essos is the Red Priestess who would have been interested in Aemon.

[terrymct]

Do Stannis and Melissandre know that he was a Targaryen? Jon nad Sam knew and it it might have common knowledge in the Watch but did anyone fill Stannis or Melissandre in on this?

 

If Melissandre's god communicates with her regularly and is in need of royal blood, you'd think he/she/it would mention the Targaryen connection.

[DarkRaichu]

 See my edit above - I can see why Sam didn't know, but Stannis was an adult man by the time of Robert's Rebellion and he certainly knew about Aemon's backstory then.

 

Him being too old, that I could accept. But it would've been nice if the show bothered to explain, even if only in a short sentence. But I doubt it's about libido. If Aemon is way too old, then Shireen is way too young.

Actually, in every other fantasy/horror genre the younger the sacrifice the better.  So Shireen may be excluded from the libido clause, but should be included in young / virgin clause :D 

Edited May 28, 2015 by DarkRaichu

[SoWindsor]

As far as I know, the religions we've seen thus far are pretty different:

- Old gods: a sort of spiritualist religion related to the use of tree-based icons. Focused mostly in the North.

- New gods/the Seven: Catholic analogue, represented by seven distinct personalities: three male, three female, one genderless. Currently experiencing a populist revival in the form of the Sparrows. Priests called "septons" or "septas," churches called "septs." One such sept in King's Landing (the main sept?) was built by a former ruler named Baelor. Focused throughout most non-northern regions of Westeros.

- Drowned god: deity associated with sea, practices baptism-like rituals with the phrase "what is dead may never die." Focused in Iron Islands.

- Lord of light: deity associated with fire and burning, where priests have powers that include but may not be limited to: resurrection, generation of smoke beings, clairvoyance, and poison immunity, though some of these may be Mel's own handiwork. Adopted by Stannis Baratheon, practiced in Essos at least somewhat.

- Red god: May be related or unrelated to the god venerated by Mel, possibly Death itself. Venerated by the Faceless and Syrio Forel (possibly). Focused in Braavos.

I hope I didn't forget anything, and that should be limited to show-only stuff.

What about the many-faced god?

[Conan Troutman]

What about the many-faced god?

 

I think that's supposed to be the God of Death. The Red God is the LoL if I'm correct.

[Andromeda]

I think that's supposed to be the God of Death. The Red God is the LoL if I'm correct.

Yes, that's what I thought. The House of Black and White had representations of all the gods, so I kind of think of the Many-Faced God as being a universal constant, which Death is, regardless of what religion a person practices.

 

Interesting to me is that the Lord of Light (Red God) and the Old Gods of the Weirwood trees are the ones that have shown the most supernatural mystical powers (bringing Dondarrion back from the dead, and the three-eyed raven stuff with Bran). I don't recall the Seven doing anything supernatural -- not yet, anyway.

[Conan Troutman]

Yes, that's what I thought. The House of Black and White had representations of all the gods, so I kind of think of the Many-Faced God as being a universal constant, which Death is, regardless of what religion a person practices.

 

So the House of Black and White is the most gray thing we got. How very Alanis Morisette.

[terrymct]

What about the many-faced god?

Around the walls of that room where Arya kept scrubbing the floor were images of all the various gods. It was my impression that the faceless men believe that there really is only one God, whom other people also worship but under a variety of names and sometimes subdivided into sub-gods. The many faced God is the one true God who is worshiped under a variety of names..

[magpye29]

I have to say the Sand Snakes were more like Sand Caterpillars. Fluffy and slow and no threat to anyone.

[NoWillToResist]

Wasn't the other Red Woman (in Volantis) going on about Daenerys Targaryen being the true and rightful Queen?

 

Wait...so two people who follow the same God have different interpretations of the faith? How unrealistic! ;)

 

I personally am holding out for the White Walkers' god to enter the Thunderdome of Gods and smite all the others.  ;)

 

And on a slightly related note; how much dragon glass is in the world and how difficult is it to obtain? Because while it was sweet of Sam to give Jon some, I don't think the quantity was enough...

[Jaded Sapphire]

Oh and thankyou to the person who pointed out that despite the self-conscious positioning of the audience as modern moral judges, we're still supposed to applaud "good kings". It squicked me about LotR and it squicks me here, and I agree that it says something about our society(s).

It doesn't squick me exactly but it's certainly interesting. What people are ready to accept as OK in the context of the characters situation and the society and what is deemed as objectively wrong and inexcusable.

I'd argue that, unlike rape, there isn't anything objectively wrong with the concept of a monarchy. Instead, any system built to maintain a monarchy will have inherent flaws that will lend itself towards creating and maintaining corruption and/or abuse of power. However, any person who wouldn't take advantage of their position (and could somehow maintain that benevolence throughout the lower levels) could be a good monarch, just like a democracy (which ostensibly uses the popular vote to fight corruption and abuse) can still have a corrupt and abusive government.

[RedheadZombie]

I have the feeling Shireen won't be the puppy that gets kicked here. Even GoT is a bit selective about which puppies it kicks, especially children.

 

I sure hope so, but I've been surprised recently.  The Walking Dead is on basic cable, and yet

last season a child was deliberately killed by shooting her in the head. She was a little psychopath, but otherwise perfectly healthy.

  And on ABC's Secret and Lies this year,

the killer was a little girl. She committed pre-meditated murder of a small child.

 

HBO may think they have to up their game to stay cutting edge.  I hope not.

 

Do Stannis and Melissandre know that he was a Targaryen? Jon nad Sam knew and it it might have common knowledge in the Watch but did anyone fill Stannis or Melissandre in on this?

 

Shouldn't Melisandre be able to sense Aemon was from royal blood?  I may be remembering it wrong, but didn't she sense it in Gendry?  If memory serves, Arya lied and told those hunting for Gendry that he had died.

 

Another reason why I think Mel will ditch Stannis and end up in Camp Dany. That's what I think/hope the whole sacrificing Shireen plot will turn out to be: Stannis refusing will make Mel part ways with him.

 

I like the sound of this.  If Stannis doesn't kill Melisandre for trying to burn Shireen behind his back (pure speculation), I'm comforted by the thought that Dany will.  Dany does not like people who kill innocents.  Sure she fed a man to her dragon recently, but at the very least, the guy was a former slave owner.  Dany does not view them as innocent.

[Kite]

Someone here doesn't have a problem with the idea of absolute power in one person's hands, as long as they didn't abuse it and worked for the good of all in the most optimum way. Yeah.

I thought the people of Westeros and Essos were human like us, right?

Apart from Aemon being a Targaryen not Baratheon, yeah, he's way too old. Not a sacrifice. You need a sacrifice, and the young are the most sacrifice-worthy. Presumably a young, innocent daughter dear to the dude it's in benefit of would be the best blood-magic of all.

[terrymct]

I have to say the Sand Snakes were more like Sand Caterpillars. Fluffy and slow and no threat to anyone.

 

They're essentially all trash talk and not even that interesting of trash talk.  Why would you put poison all over the blade of your dagger?  What happens if you nick yourself?  You take your one vial of antidote?  What happens if you are out and about and need to cut something, say an apple?  Ridiculous.  Those weapons specialties are ridiculous, too.  They'd be better off with extensive training in hand to hand fighting, then add in a broad suite of weapons.  Basically, the Sand Snakes stand around glaring at people and assuming you're going to be stunned by their incredible sexiness or something. 

[paigow]

Basically, the Sand Snakes stand around glaring at people and assuming you're going to be stunned by their incredible sexiness or something. 

Like this?

 

[izabella]

Apart from Aemon being a Targaryen not Baratheon, yeah, he's way too old. Not a sacrifice. You need a sacrifice, and the young are the most sacrifice-worthy. Presumably a young, innocent daughter dear to the dude it's in benefit of would be the best blood-magic of all.

 

I agree that young is important.  I remember Mel dissing Stannis at one point because he was too old and weak; that's why she needed young and strong Gendry.

 

But I will not forgive Mel or Stannis or the show if they burn Shireen.

[annsterg]

Hmmm....remember back when Theon was in control of Winterfell but the Northmen were outside, and he realized he was screwed, but before the Ironborn sold him out? Maester Luwin told him there was a secret way in/out of Winterfell and Theon could get out and past the forces outside, and head for the Wall. Theon did not take him up on this plan and so I don't think was ever shown the secret tunnel (or whatever it is).

 

Fast Forward to now: we never saw Theon tell Ramsay about this secret way in/out-- that it even existed. So does Sansa know about it and where it is? does ANYONE now living know? Presumably Robb as oldest and heir was told by Ned or Luwin, but does Jon know? and if so, would he have told Stannis?

 

I love me a secret room/tunnel so would love it if this detail resurfaced.

[Ottis]

I have to say the Sand Snakes were more like Sand Caterpillars. Fluffy and slow and no threat to anyone.

 

 

But at least one has attractive breasts. Which I do not object to seeing. There can be more penises as well, for those who want them. Breasts and penises for everyone.

 

I don't know why Jorah is so in love with the queen. Is it really love, like in a relationship? Or is it it an ideal he wants to be part of? Or is this really just the only place he has left to belong, at this point in his life? Because he is going to great lengths to return to her fold.

 

This whole season feels like it is building up to a spectacular ending, because every story has moved along incrementally and some seem to be converging. 

Edited May 29, 2015 by Ottis

[madam magpie]

I'd argue that, unlike rape, there isn't anything objectively wrong with the concept of a monarchy. Instead, any system built to maintain a monarchy will have inherent flaws that will lend itself towards creating and maintaining corruption and/or abuse of power. However, any person who wouldn't take advantage of their position (and could somehow maintain that benevolence throughout the lower levels) could be a good monarch, just like a democracy (which ostensibly uses the popular vote to fight corruption and abuse) can still have a corrupt and abusive government.

I'd argue that elevating one person or family simply by virtue of birthright creates an inherently unegalitarian system that depends on subjugation to flourish. Yet, that's ok here, whereas rape in context is considered misoginistic. Maybe because we still view men as rightful leaders, born or made, and women as subjects, so we can't even judge their circumstances equally in fiction?

Ottis: I think Jorah feels both guilt and love for Dany. He betrayed her and feels bad about it, so he wants to prove himself honorable. He also loves her--maybe for real, maybe as an idealized figure--so he also wants to prove himself worthy.

Edited May 29, 2015 by madam magpie

[RedheadZombie]

Hmmm....remember back when Theon was in control of Winterfell but the Northmen were outside, and he realized he was screwed, but before the Ironborn sold him out? Maester Luwin told him there was a secret way in/out of Winterfell and Theon could get out and past the forces outside, and head for the Wall. Theon did not take him up on this plan and so I don't think was ever shown the secret tunnel (or whatever it is).

 

Fast Forward to now: we never saw Theon tell Ramsay about this secret way in/out-- that it even existed. So does Sansa know about it and where it is? does ANYONE now living know? Presumably Robb as oldest and heir was told by Ned or Luwin, but does Jon know? and if so, would he have told Stannis?

 

I love me a secret room/tunnel so would love it if this detail resurfaced.

 

During the middle ages, opposing forces often lay siege by simply starving the castle to surrender.  I think it was pretty common to have secret tunnels, so they could attempt to get to resources.  Martin seems to follow a lot of medieval history.  I could see Robb knowing about it, and probably Arya.  Didn't Osha hide out with Bran and Rickon in the catacombs of Winterfell?

[Boudicea]

You're exactly right. And unfortunately I'm finding a lot of this season to be basically good, as long as you don't put much thought into it. At least previous seasons, while slow-moving, were fairly tightly-plotted. This one is a mess of shrugged shoulders and random coincidences putting people where they need to be for whatever story they're telling. Whether it's illogically slow-acting poison, or the mild inconvenience of slavery, or Lancel "unburdening himself" apparently only when it's convenient for Littlefinger, or the North claiming to "remember" and then going "La-la-la-la I can't hear you" when Sansa is abused, or people showing up at the right place at the right time just because... I find myself quite often this season thinking "Hang on, does that actually make sense? Ah, whatever, don't think about it too much." Which is awful, because I love shows that I can trust to be WORTH thinking about. Other great dramas on right now are so rewarding to think about, and pick apart and find all the layers of complexity you missed before, and this show used to be one of them! When you pick apart this season so far, all you find are details that have been swept under the rug. Major plots don't hold up to scrutiny. I hope it can all come together at the end, but I am not impressed so far.

 

Thank god Hannibal is coming back soon.

 

I find it interesting that a lot of people are complaining about how slow the season sometimes are, but at the same time it seems like people are missing some plot points, or they simply misunderstand some plot points. 

- As far as the poison goes, I think the main idea is that Oberyn used poison, and his daughters has learned that from him. The poison he used against the Mountain also wasn't fast acting poison. There could be some sense in using a slow poison, perhaps you dont want your foe to die perhaps you might still need information or something. If you use slow poison then you could still decide if the person will die or not. But obviously this isn't even a major plot point, it is a minor detail, and seems a bit like nit picking.

 

- Lancel did not suddenly "unburden" himself, he clearly told Cercei in episode one that he had confessed all of his crimes. The High Sparrow has known about Cercei's relationship with Lancel right from the start, he just waited until the right opportunity to use this information.

For me it was pretty clear that the gift Littlefinger referred to was actually Olyvar. Olyvar presented himself as Loras's squire during the hearing, while he has clearly been working in Littlefinger's brothel. That information should help to make his testimony unreliable.

 

- The houses in the North are in a difficult situation, it does make much more sense for them to wait a bit before choosing a side. If they sided with Stannis and he loses against the Bolton's then there would be hell to pay. What's left of the Northern houses cant really show open support for Stannis right now, and what reason would they really have to support Stannis in any case? He is just another Southern King to them at the moment. If Stannis had Jon, Bran or Rickon to install in Winterfell then they would have had a reason to support Stannis openly. But at the moment they might as well do nothing, they fear the Boltons and the Boltons does have a Stark and they themselves are a still a Northern family.  If Stannis does actually win the battle of Winterfell, then it would be much easier for them to support Stannis. 

 

- I really say much about people meeting up at the same places occasionally, that is just something that happens in every single story, and there aren't that many different inns and roads to use.

 

When it comes to a Game of Thrones you should sometimes wait before nitpicking to much, very often some scenes or situations might seem out of place or unnecessary at the time, but with time the answers or reasons for those scenes are also revealed. Littlefinger is a very good example here, we simply dont understand all of his plots, but as time goes on things are revealed. (Another lame example is Loras's birth mark being mentioned in episode one, that seemed like useless information at the time, but this useless information was used again in episode 6 when Olyvar testified against Loras). You just cant always expect an answer to everything in the one episode, that is why this show lends itself very well to being binge watched.  

 

But that happened before any of the main characters were even born (Aemon was Dany's Great-Grandfather). Sam, the bookish one, didn't know before it was revealed to him, why should we assume Stannis and Mel did?

 

Also to add to that, once you become a Maester you lose your name. The Citadel does not acknowledge family names, you only use your first name. This is because Maesters are suppose to completely neutral, they cant show alliance to any house. So strictly speaking people are not suppose to know who Maester Aemon actually is. Maester has literally been up at the wall for so long that people have actually forgotten about him.  

[Jaded Sapphire]

I guess I didn't explain myself well. I don't equate inherent problems with a system with the system itself being morally objectionable. IMO, that makes the implementation morally objectionable.

If (and I didn't mean to imply that this is realistically possible) monarchy could somehow be implemented without any of its historically inherent problems then, and only then, would I not have a problem.

As it relates to the show, because there are characters who (presumably) intend to minimize those inherent problems while treating those they rule over well, I don't have a problem saying these fictional characters would be good monarchs of this fictional world.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Jaded Sapphire

[Notwisconsin]

Pop Quiz ...You reach a fork in the road and encounter 2 insanely hot Red Priestesses. One path leads to an ambush, the other to safety, but your old maester rambled on so much that you can't remember his advice. The only thing you do remember is that one priestess always lies and the other always tells the truth...Think of the single question that will save your life...

The correct answer is: What would your companion over there say  if i asked....

 

Anyway, of course Christians don't accept the idea endless lives of suffering,

Actually, that's the whole POINT of Christianity. It's called HELL, where souls have endless lives of suffering.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Notwisconsin

[Drogo]

Re: the argument that GOT would steer clear of killing a child: in Season 1 several of Robert's young bastard children were killed, including an infant murdered in her mother's arms.

[Ambrosefolly]

I think the idea is to break Sansa psychologically, deprive of her all human contact that he doesn't control and regularly brutalise her so she is simply a compliant broodmare. Though I am confused as to what the Boltons plans are for dealing with the Stark boys. Sansa is not as important as people keep making her out to be.

I believe that the Boltons think the Stark boys are dead. He sent Locke to track them down and now thinks the boys are dead.

[Calamity Jane]

The correct answer is: What would your companion over there say  if i asked....

 

Actually, that's the whole POINT of Christianity. It's called HELL, where souls have endless lives of suffering.

Not if they accept Jesus before they die.  My point.

[madam magpie]

I guess I didn't explain myself well. I don't equate inherent problems with a system with the system itself being morally objectionable. IMO, that makes the implementation morally objectionable.

If (and I didn't mean to imply that this is realistically possible) monarchy could somehow be implemented without any of its historically inherent problems then, and only then, would I not have a problem.

As it relates to the show, because there are characters who (presumably) intend to minimize those inherent problems while treating those they rule over well, I don't have a problem saying these fictional characters would be good monarchs of this fictional world.

You were clear, I just don't believe that's true. To me, it's like saying, "But if only there were good slave owners..." I'd find slavery morally objectionable as an economic or political system however it was implemented and consider monarchies fundamentally similar in some ways to slave systems. But so what? The world in Game of Thrones is set up as one where things like slavery, monarchies, and the abuse of women are commonplace, yet people object primarily to the systems that subjugate or abuse only the particular populations that our culture sees as in need right now. I think that's limiting. My assumption is that a poor, white peasant farmer in this world would be pretty bad off and abused by the system that keeps monarchs in power. Yet, I (and most people in the audience) still see certain characters as worthy of sitting atop that hierarchy. I accept it because that's the world these people inhabit, just like I accept the slavery and rapes for the same reason. I still hope everyone rises up and overthrows their masters, though, whether those masters are kings or rapists...or both. I kind of even want Dany overthrown. But I don't see misogyny in the representation of this world, just like I don't see a call for the establishment of monarchical governments. Edited May 29, 2015 by madam magpie

[Ambrosefolly]

Not if they accept Jesus before they die.  My point.

Still doesn't make Hinduism less lazy than Christianity. There is a certain laziness to think that you can be the worst shit possible in one life and have another life to figure or be better and work your way up. Christianity says you only get one shot.

[missy jo]

And even if rape is a commonplace occurrence in this world, that doesn't mean viewers aren't allowed a critical response to WHEN and HOW it is portrayed. On a show where naked female bodies are routinely portrayed as mute, sexualized scenery objects complete with leering porn-y camera pans, I think it's a reasonable expectation that viewers will be somewhat suspicious of how the writers (who are 100% male this season afaik?) choose to portray sexual violence against women.

 

 

It's a cross between "Dungeons and Dragons" and Cinemax, and I'm out.

 

I went back to Season 1 to refresh my memory on Theon. The most gratuitous scene wasn't until episode 7, where Little Finger instructed his whores on how to fuck each other as he gave a dull monologue of his life history. "Show, don't tell!"

 

Season 2 started with that inbred moron Gilly's incest family, and after that the show just decided to have rape, rape, rape everywhere. Rape in the background as the Dothraki's conquered cities and Arya, dressed as a boy, greeted with, "hey, I should rape you" by the people heading to the Wall with her. It was constant and lazy storytelling for shock value.

Edited May 29, 2015 by missy jo

[wayne67]

I believe that the Boltons think the Stark boys are dead. He sent Locke to track them down and now thinks the boys are dead.

 

Except Locke didn't return and there is no confirmation of their death so it's a wild card. Not that either of them would be much of a threat on their own but they'd be puppet rulers that could be used to rally insurrection against the Boltons.

[madam magpie]

It's a cross between "Dungeons and Dragons" and Cinemax, and I'm out.

I went back to Season 1 to refresh my memory on Theon. The most gratuitous scene wasn't until episode 7, where Little Finger instructed his whores on how to fuck each other as he gave a dull monologue of his life history. "Show, don't tell!"

Season 2 started with that inbred moron Gilly's incest family, and after that the show just decided to have rape, rape, rape everywhere. Rape in the background as the Dothraki's conquered cities and Arya, dressed as a boy, greeted with, "hey, I should rape you" by the people heading to the Wall with her. It was constant and lazy storytelling for shock value.

If I remember right, Drogo basically rapes Dany in the second or third episode (I'm pretty sure he very clearly hurts her) after she was sold to him by her creepy brother, and then she goes looking for help to learn to please her rapist/husband. And then she falls in love with him. And then he becomes a beloved hero. Edited May 30, 2015 by madam magpie

[Elkins]

Drogo first rapes her in the very first episode, actually. Then he does so some more in a later episode in the first season.  And the scenes of the Dothraki raping women after conquering their village that you're remembering happened in the first season as well.

 

From the very start, the show has been grotesquely saturated with rape. It was widely criticized for that very reason when the first season originally aired.

 

Not, mind you, that this means that anyone shouldn't get fed up with it and decide that enough is enough already. Just saying, the show has always been really terrible on that count. I don't think that the first season was any better than the second. In fact, given that the first season featured a young woman falling in love with her rapist, I think you could make a case for it being even worse.

 

[NoWillToResist]

I kind of even want Dany overthrown.

 

Me too. I have a problem with ANYONE thinking they have a right to the Iron Throne just because their dad/brother/whomever ruled before them. I think she's so popular because, of all the people with their sights set on the Iron Throne, she's the least objectionable and the most "for the people" of the lot. The Lannisters are a fucking disaster and Stannis is swayed by his sexy religious advisor.

 

I feel a little bad for the residents of Mereen though...they are her training wheels...