S05.E07: The Gift

[Holmbo]

I want to comment on Gilly dying using knowledge about the casting calls. Is this allowed?

[Amtosbm]

 

I am absolutely riveted by the entire Winterfell plotline this season. I find it intense, atmospheric, claustrophobic, gripping and dark. The character work seems fantastic to me, and I also think that it is visually just gorgeous. Definitely one of those "Huh. I guess I'm just...watching a very different show than all of these other people are somehow?" situations for me. Some of the interpretations I'm seeing I can't even find a way to connect to the show I've been watching. But eh, whatcha gonna do? Things just shake out that way sometimes.

I am riveted also, it reminds me of when I read Rebecca ( though not as gruesome) in terms of atmosphere, and not knowing how the characters would act next.  I appreciate the mood it has created.

 

I also agree with others who have said Sansa has been the character, besides Tyrion, with the most interesting storylines. She has literally travelled more than the others and interacted with many different people. Its so much more enjoyable to watch than Jon stuck up North with Wildings and the Night Watch for what seems like eons, and Theon stuck with the Boltons. 

 

I can't wait for Ramsay and Roose to get theirs but for once I actually stop to watch their scenes. I also think the actors bring out the best in each other. I just have this feeling though that at least one of them may be back next season. I am really starting to feel like this might be the end of Stannis. If he burns Shireen and then I really wish it is.

 

I am so bored with Dorne I couldn't even bother to stop and listen to Bronn singing.  The last time I skipped over so much storyline was when Jon was in the Wilding camp with Ygritte.  I am just not interested.

 

I am so excited to see Tyrion potentially lay some truths on Dany. I hope I am not disappointed.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Amtosbm

[whirlingdervish]

I want to comment on

Gilly dying using knowledge about the casting calls.

Is this allowed?

 

I'm not a mod, but my suggestion would be to spoiler tag anything you're not sure of (like so). 

[Holmbo]

It's too bad there are no spoiler buttons on the mobile web page. Every site has different mark up I can't keep track.

To be clear the casting offers no knowledge about Gilly's future in the story. I'm just speculating based on other things revealed.

[nksarmi]

I want to comment on Gilly dying using knowledge about the casting calls. Is this allowed?

For what it's worth, there is a season six speculation thread that allows for casting discussions and book talk.

[Philbert]

 

What happened to Gilly and Sansa is not in the books, so this is on D&D.

 

What happened to Sansa IS in the books...it just didn't happen to Sansa. In fact, Martin's scene was far, far worse. I won't argue the thing with Gilly. I know why they put it in there... and I  DO think it was gratuitous but people need to stop blaming B&W for Martin's 'sins.' They've cut out HUGE amounts of gratuitous sex (just about every lesbian scene in the books is gone) compared to what they've left in. I don't understand where this Martin worship is coming from. The last two books were mediocre at best and "A Feast For Crows" was pretty much utter shit.

[WearyTraveler]

I want to comment on Gilly dying using knowledge about the casting calls. Is this allowed?

 

I think for show spoilers we have to spoiler tag it in here.

[Pogojoco]

Re. Manderly- The showrunners can't introduce new characters at this point? Except they do that every season. 

 

How would Manderly be any different than how they used Oberyn last season? 

Oberyn didn't have a huge part, but he shows up, has some great lines and throws a wrench in the works. Exactly what Manderly could do in the North.

 

Manderly isn't even my favourite character from the books, but he could've been used in the show. 

Edited May 27, 2015 by Pogojoco

[Pogojoco]

 

  

But that doesn't mean that he can't still empathize with Ramsay's other chew toys, or pity Sansa when he sees her being cruelly treated. In his own way, he actually did try to help her. When he earnestly warned her not to try to oppose Ramsay, that was him trying to help her. In his mind, he was giving her some really good advice there, because he knows all too well that "it can always get worse." He's just...not anywhere near ready yet to help Sansa in any way that she (or we) would consider very useful.

 

But I think he'll get there. I think Sansa will help him to find himself again. I agree with Pete Martell that Ramsay is deliberately pitting them against each other, but unlike Pete, I believe that they will thwart him. I don't read this story as one that is heading for utter despair. I just don't see any signs of that being the story. The story I see taking shape here is one of these two people helping each other, and by doing so saving themselves.

 

I agree. All of Theon's words to Sansa have been "you have to do this, or he'll hurt you." or "we have to, or he'll hurt us." And he's constantly trying to warn her that Ramsey is always worse than expected. He can't help her escape at this point, but Theon is caring enough about Sansa that he doesn't want to see her suffer (more).

 

The interaction between the two is the saving grace of this weird Winterfell plot. In the book, the spearwives that come with Mance really spur Theon into action and actually do a good portion of the rescuing. I guess maybe Brienne will fill that role. 

Edited May 28, 2015 by Pogojoco

[Bass90]

I think D&D really were on to some solid ideas for how to improve the story, they just failed to execute on them.

 

Cutting Aegon to speed up Tyrion is a great move, and I've liked Tyrion more than his book counterpart this season..

 

Sansa in Winterfell could have been good. Never cared much for the Vale plot, but had they adapted its main thrust of her learning to play the game and gaining allies among the lords, it would've been great. Sure, there would be unpleasant scenes with Ramsay, but it would've been tolerable because we could see her executing on a plan to take the Boltons down, instead of just waiting miserably for Stannis. And Theon should've provided a great opportunity to showcase her fundamental kindness, even in terrible situations, as she helps along his reawakening so he can help her in the end. Instead we got no Northern lords, no action from Sansa, rape, and Theon has regressed even further and committed even more heinous crimes

 

Jaime in Dorne could have worked just fine if they wrote Ellaria and the Sand Snakes as something other than villanous cartoons. Cut the stupid bucket-whipping, merchant-killing scene and instead just have some actual character developing with them talking about why they cared about Oberyn so much, and coming up with a smarter plan than "murder Myrcella!"

 

I like Cersei's plot so far, but it could have used some set up for the commoners' increasing religiosity leading up to the Sparrows last season.

 

People would have hated Meereen no matter what they did.

 

So yeah, I think they actually hit really close to a general framework for a condensed season that would have worked better than the books. They've convinced me that's totally possible, it's just not what this season is. Which is worse, because I can't just say "Well, the book was unadaptable!" They just missed the mark and the result, so far, is bad.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Bass90

[benteen]

Read an article on Winter is Coming, wondering if the guy who cut Tyrion loose was supposed to be Strong Belwas.

[sunnyface]

The Sam and Gilly scene were interesting to me

 

 

Sam takes up too much of the valuable screen time.  It seems like he has been on more this season than Jon.

[SeanC]

Sam takes up too much of the valuable screen time.  It seems like he has been on more this season than Jon.

As of episode 506, he had 11 minutes of screentime to Jon's 30.  I expect this episode closed that gap by a decent stretch, but by no means has he had more screentime than Jon.

[Dev F]

Re. Manderly- The showrunners can't introduce new characters at this point? Except they do that every season.

 

I didn't say that. I said, specifically, that the producers tend to avoid adding new characters who serve as the prime movers of a storyline while the main characters stand on the sidelines and gawk. The problem with Manderly is not that he's a new addition, but that he's a new addition who immediately pushes the existing characters aside and starts doing the awesome things we've been hoping they would do for a really long time.

 

Which is not the way Oberyn functions in the story at all; he's introduced as an antagonistic character who complicates the existing characters' storylines, and he's allowed to develop in that vein for most of the season before he presents himself as a solution to Tyrion's problem. And then, of course, his efforts to solve Tyrion's problem fail spectacularly, making everyone's life more difficult and spinning off the story in a bunch of new directions.

 

If Oberyn had come into the story the way people expect Manderly to, it would've been more like this: Tyrion is accused of Joffrey's murder and demands trial by combat, at which point Oberyn appears in the story for the first time. Initially there's a lengthy fakeout, with Oberyn pretending that he wants Tyrion to be executed, but eventually, with no real input from Tyrion, the Red Viper reveals that he's on the Imp's side and will fight for him. And then he fights the Mountain and defeats him in a totally awesome way, winning the prisoner's freedom. Then he sends Tyrion on some sort of quest to repay his debt.

 

And, again, there are certainly ways the writers could pitch a Manderly storyline that would avoid this sort of storyline, but it would require significant changes from the book.

[Pogojoco]

Manderly doesn`t have a major part in the book and no POV character is really pushed aside. He`s seen through Theon`s eyes, who has already been pushed aside and is an observer.  I don't really see how Oberyn and Manderly aren't similar- Oberyn complicates King's Landing Story/Tyrion, Manderly complicates Boltons in Winterfell. I don't see why main characters would have to stand aside and watch Manderly do stuff. That's narrow.  And yes, big changes from the book- but it's not like these people are afraid of doing that. 

 

The problem with the lack of a Manderly is there is no longer any scope to the North storyline- there are Boltons and there are dead or young Starks. They also cut out the Jon scene where he gives Stannis tips on how to win over Northern lords-  so in the show world, the North is just a vast and empty place. 

 

I dunno, have Manderly show up for the wedding, do some stuff-eat Freys in pies or not. Maybe get Theon to confess that the little boys are still alive. He could even leave, meet Stannis. Tell him he'll bend the knee if someone (Davos) finds Rickon. Gives him inside info on what's going on in Winterfell. 

 

The possibilities are endless.

 

I don't care all that much that Manderly not in this, but the world has shrunk a bit too much for my liking. 

Edited May 28, 2015 by Pogojoco

[Elkins]

(I thought we had the Ramsay eats sausage scene in the book, in regards to after the Theon castration scene.)

 

There may have been a sausage eating scene, although I don't remember one, but it couldn't have been very much like the scene on the show because the book doesn't have a castration scene at all. In the book, it's something that happened in the past and that Theon can barely even bring himself to acknowledge. It's revealed to the reader only through hints and allusions, and by the way that Theon's internal narration keeps returning to the issue only to circle around it, shuffling along its edges until he simply can't bear it anymore and starts deflecting. It was so subtle that I suspect many readers would never have caught it at all if it hadn't been for that awful wedding night scene with Jeyne, where it was alluded to far more directly and undeniably.

 

The Gilly plot reminded me of the Pod prostitute joke from season 3. In the LF sexposition scene in season 1 the writers seemed to make fun of men who believes they can be so good at sex that they make the prostitute enjoy it. Then they do that exact thing in Pod's story.

Oh, wow, I can't believe I never noticed that! That's absolutely true, what they did with Pod was exactly the same delusional fantasy that Littlefinger was talking about in that scene. How do they keep managing to do stuff like that?

 

I am riveted also, it reminds me of when I read Rebecca ( though not as gruesome) in terms of atmosphere, and not knowing how the characters would act next.  I appreciate the mood it has created.

 

Ooh, that's a great comparison! It does have just that sort of gothic feel to it, although with the twist (as the script itself pointed out) that the heroine is not the stranger new to the house, as she would usually be in a gothic tale, but is instead the native, or maybe even almost a personification of the house itself, invaded and surrounded by interlopers. The relationshop of the heroine to the house is flipped on its head: the genus loci of the setting in this story does not need to be won over by the heroine; it is already the heroine's ally, and so rather than finding herself confronted by hostile servants like Mrs. Danvers, Sansa instead encounters furtively supportive servants like that unfortunate 'the North Remembers' woman.

 

Speaking of "The North Remembers," that's another sort of cool inversion, isn't it? It seems to me that usually the echoes of the past play an antagonistic role in a romantic gothic, but in this story memory and remembrance are not forces arrayed against the protagonist but instead the forces that strengthen and arm her. It's a kind of ghost story, but one in which the audience is firmly on the side of the ghost. The Ghost of Winterfell.

 

Huh. I think maybe I'd...better stop now, before I start comparing Sansa to Rebecca and the Boltons to the second Mrs. de Winter or something.

Oops. Too late!

 

[LadyArcadia]

I do not understand why people are getting so up in arms about the stuff with Gilly.  She was not raped, she was not assaulted, she was somewhat manhandled.  Was she going to be raped?  Maybe - hell probably - but are we really going to be pissed about near misses now?  The show has removed rapes that were in the books, so its not like they are just trying to brutalize women every chance they get.

 

I believe the scenes with Gilly and Sam were to remind the audience again that the NW is not largely made up of Sam's, Jon's, Aemon's, or Mormont's anymore.  It's also telling that the show has already killed off many of Jon's more "innocent" friends. They have made it more than clear in this episode that the Wall isn't safe for Gilly and Sam and I believe they will leave soon.  But this time, I wonder what their mission will be.  In the books Sam is taking knowledge that Dany might be the "prince that was promised" from Aemon to the Citidal.  I feel like the show hasn't been hitting the need for Dany to get her dragons to the Wall hard enough or making the audience feel what the real threat to Westerous is so I wonder if we will get more whitewalker drama in the next three episodes.

 

I also think the scene between Gilly is Sam was sweet and I fail to see why people care so much that she was "almost" raped a few hours earlier.  What Gilly was going through was relatively minor compared to what she likely had endured from her father.  The biggest stress for her in that situation was watching Sam being beaten.  She basically told him that in the future he should let her be raped rather than risk his life.  And there was certainly some time elapsed between the two scenes.  What I saw between Gilly and Sam was her looking at a man that had saved her life and her son's more than once and she was looking at him with love.  Not passion, not lust, not any great turn on - just pure love.  So she decided to express her feelings by making love to him.  I take zero issue with this and I don't see why so many are freaking out about it.

 

I do wonder about how they have changed the stuff at the wall with the red witch being with Stannis, not Jon, and who might be the one to save him. I think either they aren't going to do the stabbing or it isn't going to be like it was in the books.  Personally, I can see it being a stabbing that leaves him down, but he gets up and helps leads the NW against a whitewalker attack or something like that.  So at the end of the season, he's hurt but not necessarily dead.

 

I was going to write a long post about how annoyed I am at the "ZOMG Gilly almost got raped!" outrage, then I was going to mention that the show is completely missing "The prince who was promised" plot, then I read your post and you said it all for me!  So, YES to your whole post!

 

I'll just add a few points:

1) Gilly got threatened with rape by.......rapists.  Seriously, if you can't expect that behavior from the guys on the wall, then you don't understand why they're there in the first place.

2) There are many elements of the story that make up Game of Thrones. One of the biggest story lines happens to be the very first shot shown in the very first episode of the show:  The White Walkers are coming.  That was the very first thing established in the books and show.  The "prince who was promised" is supposed to be the savior against the White Walkers.  Yet, the show is completely ignoring this!  

 

Why, why, why, have Mellisandre remind Stannis that he is "the one" and miss the opportunity for Aemon to tell Sam to find Dany and tell him they were wrong about the prophesy (the prince not necessarily being a man)?   Why is the show ignoring this key element?  If I were just watching the show, I'd have no idea why the red witch is so interested in Stannis other than she thinks he'll be king.  I have no idea about her motivation on the show.  It seems to me that this is one of the key elements of the entire story and they're not explaining it very well at all! 

[Dev F]

Why, why, why, have Mellisandre remind Stannis that he is "the one" and miss the opportunity for Aemon to tell Sam to find Dany and tell him they were wrong about the prophesy (the prince not necessarily being a man)?   Why is the show ignoring this key element?  If I were just watching the show, I'd have no idea why the red witch is so interested in Stannis other than she thinks he'll be king.  I have no idea about her motivation on the show.  It seems to me that this is one of the key elements of the entire story and they're not explaining it very well at all! 

 

I feel like Melisandre is constantly mentioning that she wants Stannis to be king because he's the only one who can save the world from death and darkness in the coming winter. In this very episode she tells him, "You must become king before the Long Night begins. Only you can lead the living against the dead."

 

It's true that there hasn't been any mention of the Targaryens believing in a similar savior, but that's exactly the sort of duplication the show's writers have tended to avoid -- since Melisandre is beating that drum so strongly, there's no immediate need to give a related obsession to Aemon or anything like that. If they need to establish down the line that Rhaegar believed the same prophecy, they can just say that he learned it from another red priest or somesuch.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Dev F

[Pogojoco]

 

Why, why, why, have Mellisandre remind Stannis that he is "the one" and miss the opportunity for Aemon to tell Sam to find Dany and tell him they were wrong about the prophesy (the prince not necessarily being a man)?   Why is the show ignoring this key element?  If I were just watching the show, I'd have no idea why the red witch is so interested in Stannis other than she thinks he'll be king.  I have no idea about her motivation on the show.  It seems to me that this is one of the key elements of the entire story and they're not explaining it very well at all! 

Good call on Aemon not telling Sam to seek out Dany. That, in the same episode as Tyrion meeting up with her, would be a nice tie in with all the different story parts.They even reminded viewers that Aemon is a Targaryan a few episodes ago and mentioned Egg in this episode. It would be a line of dialogue! And give Sam something new! 

 

The Melisandre/Stannis thing in the show seems to be a sexual thing (way more overtly than it is in the book, where Azor Ahai and the sword are more of a thing. It also explains her interest in Jon Snow in the book, like maybe she's doubting that Stannis is the guy- the Mance stuff, her sharing her visions with Jon Snow to gain his trust and staying with him at Castle Black when Stannis rides south indicates this.)

 

I guess shadow babies, king's blood and sex are Show Melisandre's purpose.  

[Holmbo]

I feel like Melisandre is constantly mentioning that she wants Stannis to be king because he's the only one who can save the world from death and darkness in the coming winter. In this very episode she tells him, "You must become king before the Long Night begins. Only you can lead the living against the dead."

It's true that there hasn't been any mention of the Targaryens believing in a similar savior, but that's exactly the sort of duplication the show's writers have tended to avoid -- since Melisandre is beating that drum so strongly, there's no immediate need to give a related obsession to Aemon or anything like that. If they need to establish down the line that Rhaegar believed the same prophecy, they can just say that he learned it from another red priest or somesuch.

I agree that they have established well the concept of a savior from doom through Melisandre. Maybe they should get more into the specifics about what the role of this savior entails but I don't think there's any need to have other characters being up like: oh I think it is Dany who is the savior.

[FemmyV]

Hopefully we'll finally get somewhere, or a new set of clues, at least.

The Night's King

is in the credits in episodes 8 and 10. I also saw a claim that

Uncle Benjen

was listed, but the info wasn't showing last I looked.

[nksarmi]

I agree that they have established well the concept of a savior from doom through Melisandre. Maybe they should get more into the specifics about what the role of this savior entails but I don't think there's any need to have other characters being up like: oh I think it is Dany who is the savior.

Well it was a nice tie in to have the Priestess in Braavos say that the Lord of Light has sent a savior and SHE is the Mother of Dragons, but I agree with those who say we could have used a bit of dialogue about the "prince that was promised" because I think it will tie into the reveal that Jon is half-Targ. 

 

However, with Mel down in the snow with Stannis, I really have no idea what is going to happen with Jon.  I really thought she was the one bound to save him in the books - I even thought the show was doubling down on this foreshadowing when they had her meet up with the Band of Brothers and established that a Red Priest had done a resurrection. 

 

The only thing I can think of is that she will try to burn Shirleen without Stannis' permission and instead of - or perhaps in addition to - sending Davos away with Shirleen to end up wherever Rickon is....that Stannis will send Mel back to the Wall.  Then Stannis will proceed to lose the Battle at Winterfell and Mel will be the one to see a vision of/reveal the truth of Jon's parents and then decide that she was wrong about Stannis and Jon was the savior all along. 

[Holmbo]

However, with Mel down in the snow with Stannis, I really have no idea what is going to happen with Jon. I really thought she was the one bound to save him in the books - I even thought the show was doubling down on this foreshadowing when they had her meet up with the Band of Brothers and established that a Red Priest had done a resurrection.

The only thing I can think of is that she will try to burn Shirleen without Stannis' permission and instead of - or perhaps in addition to - sending Davos away with Shirleen to end up wherever Rickon is....that Stannis will send Mel back to the Wall. Then Stannis will proceed to lose the Battle at Winterfell and Mel will be the one to see a vision of/reveal the truth of Jon's parents and then decide that she was wrong about Stannis and Jon was the savior all along.

I'm pretty much positive that Mel will resurrect Jon. Somehow she'll end up at the wall. Either she leaves voluntarily, stannis forces her to leave, or she flees there after Stannis lost the battle.

[Avaleigh]

Hopefully we'll finally get somewhere, or a new set of clues, at least.

The Night's King

is in the credits in episodes 8 and 10. I also saw a claim that

Uncle Benjen

was listed, but the info wasn't showing last I looked.

Really? Where did you read that? I really hope this is true.

[MrWhyt]

Really? Where did you read that? I really hope this is true.

Spoilers about the first character and their appearance have been floating about since before the season started, don't know how accurate they/the source are/is.

Edited May 29, 2015 by MrWhyt

[Dev F]

I believe it's from IMDb entries for future episodes, which are user-maintained and thus completely unreliable.

[FemmyV]

Mmmmm, great. Cause there's also a bunch of talk about Michelle Fairley's name making an appearance, as "hooded woman." That would be seriously mean.

[Holmbo]

That was also just imdb edits.

[Oscirus]

I'd assume that if we're getting a stonehart appearance that we'd at least get something from the brotherhood without banners this season. Or at the very least a hint that Arya's wolf is still out there doing it's thing.

[Hecate7]

As far as I can tell, Yara doesn't exist - she returned briefly to say Theon was dead to her and run away from dogs. I wouldn't say Lysa was presented as strong either, or Ellaria, or the Sand Snakes (most of whom are presented as irrational and needing to be kept in their place by Doran). Arya is strong, yes, but mostly feels like a blank slate on another show somewhere. Melisandre is interesting and unique, yes. Brienne is barely there and is a one-dimensional action figure. I've already shared my views on how I feel about the writing for Margaery and Olenna - I don't find either of them particularly strong, as the former blithely smirked her way into a prison cell because she assumed all she needed in life was to bed a naive, powerless boy king, and the latter basically left a kingdom to rot in the hands of people she knew were not strong or capable, mostly returning to call Cersei a whore and get her imprisoned.

 

Gilly is another character who was subjected to sexual assault in order to prove "strength." She couldn't have a first time with Sam on her own terms - it had to be contrasted to a near-rape so we'd be reminded of a "good" man compared to "bad" men, and presumably, be glad that Gilly was so glad she had a "good" man that she would show him her gratitude.

 

I never said every woman on the show was raped or nearly raped.

 

You used the word anathema. I assumed you were using it in the sense of banned, so I listed all the strong women to show that they were not banned. I think you're reading too much into the near-rape. The point of it was that Sam is very unpopular, Gilly is the only woman at the wall, and the wall is full of rapists and criminals, and that they need to take Maester Aemon's advice and get the baby South.

[Avaleigh]

You used the word anathema. I assumed you were using it in the sense of banned, so I listed all the strong women to show that they were not banned. I think you're reading too much into the near-rape. The point of it was that Sam is very unpopular, Gilly is the only woman at the wall, and the wall is full of rapists and criminals, and that they need to take Maester Aemon's advice and get the baby South.

Another thing that's worth pointing out is that Sam had concerns about the risk of rape last season. That's the entire reason Gilly started living in Mole's Town in the first place because they were concerned about having one woman on the Wall especially when a bunch of the guys there are rapists. He talks about this so to me it seems pretty consistent and didn't feel as though the attempted rape came out of nowhere or was somehow gratuitous. 

[nksarmi]

Another thing that's worth pointing out is that Sam had concerns about the risk of rape last season. That's the entire reason Gilly started living in Mole's Town in the first place because they were concerned about having one woman on the Wall especially when a bunch of the guys there are rapists. He talks about this so to me it seems pretty consistent and didn't feel as though the attempted rape came out of nowhere or was somehow gratuitous. 

Not to mention that just a few episodes ago, Stannis insists on bringing his wife and daughter south because the Wall is manned by former rapists.  I honestly think it would have been unrealistic if an attempt wasn't made on Gilly.  And I loved Ghost coming to the rescue. 

 

And I still don't consider it gross that Gilly choose to have sex with Sam later that night.  She showed her love for him how she wanted to show it and it wasn't like the show was claiming that the near rape turned her on.  As someone else said, that was a very unsexy love scene.  It was sweet, but there was absolutely nothing titillating about it.

[Knuckles]

Gilly choosing to deflower Sam...I thought it was another variation on The Gift. Sam took a serious beat-down from a pair of would-be rapists, and with Ghost's help, saved Gilly. Sam promised Gilly once again that he would fight to protect her and Sam Jr., at any cost, as he has in the past. It seems clear that while Sam loves Gilly, her response is more of gratitude for his protection and kindness, not attraction. It was a deliberate gift on Gilly's part, which is why it seemed sweet, but utterly unsexy.

[Pete Martell]

You used the word anathema. I assumed you were using it in the sense of banned, so I listed all the strong women to show that they were not banned. I think you're reading too much into the near-rape. The point of it was that Sam is very unpopular, Gilly is the only woman at the wall, and the wall is full of rapists and criminals, and that they need to take Maester Aemon's advice and get the baby South.

 

To me most of those women aren't strong - or if they were they aren't in recent years. 

 

I'm sure there are logical reasons for why Gilly would be nearly raped, but this isn't exactly a logical show, and it's a fantasy universe. I think we could have waved the realism and come up with other story reasons. Her baby's life, for one. 

 

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

[Bill1978]

I've been thinking about Mel's plan on burning Shireen lately and thinking that there is a flaw in her plan and Mel hasn't thought through this crap properly. If she burns Shireen, then Stannis is left heirless. So what is the point really of becoming King, for him to die and then suddenly another power struggle cause who would be next in line? I say this assuming Stannis' wife is too old for anymore reproduction. Is Mel hoping for Stannis to remarry or something if Shireen is gone?

[WearyTraveler]

Mel serves The Lord of Light.  She doesn't care about Westeros.  All she cares about is defeating the Other god.  Presumably the Night King, AKA, the King of the White Walkers.

[John Potts]

Hey, who would have thought that giving power to a band of religious fanatics might have unintended consequences? Not Cersei, evidently. Did it never occur to her to wonder why the Targs abolished the Faith Militant?

On ‎25‎/‎05‎/‎2015 at 4:05 AM, dbell1 said:

Happy to see Cersie hauled off. Maybe she can get the cell next to Marg?

I was wondering if they might not end up in the same cell. The Sparrows are all about (Seven) Heaven and Hells - and what would be more hellish than being stuck in a cell with Cersei?

Did anyone else get the impression that Gilly was suggesting she might euthanise Master Aemon? I'm sure Sam wouldn't permit it, but it is the Wilding way for those who are "too old", and she is Craster's daughter-wife, who regularly sacrificed his sons.

Stannis might be a uncompromising, but he was right to advance (in poker terms, he's "pot committed"). If he's going to become King, he can't afford to retreat - this is his last shot.

On ‎25‎/‎05‎/‎2015 at 3:20 AM, Pete Martell said:

This whole idea that Sansa can say whatever she wants and get "awesome" speeches about his wicked ways in-between his torment of her reads like bad fanfic to me.

Which is why the whole plot was stupid from the start. Because - how does she expect Ramsay to react when she insults him? As Theon said, "Things can always get worse". I guess we should be grateful that she's at least trying to save herself, but it's painful to watch how outmatched she is.  She ought to knife Littlefinger in the gut when she next sees him for putting her in that situation*.

On ‎25‎/‎05‎/‎2015 at 3:16 AM, benteen said:

Give the show credit for one thing...it took them less than five years to do something that's GRRM hasn't done in nearly 20 years.  Have Tyrion finally meet Dany.

Amen and Halleluiah! You can just see GRRM going, "But that's 1000 miles - it should take at least 6 months, during which they should meet 17 different tribes that each have unique characteristics!" Which may be 'realistic' - but it doesn't make it interesting.

On ‎25‎/‎05‎/‎2015 at 4:32 AM, Advance35 said:

Isn't Jorah risking everyone by parading around with grey scale?

He seems to be playing the role of "Guy in a zombie movie concealing the fact that he's been bitten". With less justification, because that guy gets killed once it's discovered, Jorah is likely just to get exiled (again).

* You don't need to tell me - I know she doesn't