S10.E23: Brother's Keeper

[oliverwendell]

Also??  What about the First Blade??  Dean killed Cain with that thing.  Why couldn't he get somebody to kill him with it?  Cas even knows where the Blade is, for pete's sake!! I get he's all 'roided up and such, but surely a garrison of angels could hold him down while somebody stabbed him???  He didn't really need to be parked out in space somewhere for all eternity, and he certainly didn't need to kill Sam!  More importantly:  if I could think of this gargantuan hole in the story in less than 24 hours, why didn't somebody in the writer's room think of it at some point during the months since they broke it???  They are professionals!  

 

Argh!  Argh, argh, blargh.  I just get more annoyed the more I think about this episode.  

[catrox14]

Okay wait a minute.  Did they just completely change the lore of Lucifer being banished by God and deciding to make demons of his own accord to now being evil because God cursed him? Instead of him just rebelling because Dad liked humans more. Doesn't that kind of make the whole speech from Samifer in Detroit pointless?

 

Do I have that wrong??

[supposebly]

Oh no, you got that right:

 

Samifer (heh!): Ever hear the story how I fell from grace? You know why God cast me down? Because I loved him. More than anything. And then God created......you. The little hairless apes. And then he asked us all to bow down before you. To love you more than him. And I said, father, I can't. I said, these human beings are flawed, murderous. And for that, God had Michael cast me into hell. Now tell me, does the punishment fit the crime?

 

They keep retconning and thus making all the previous seasons moot. Or negating such a powerful scene.

 

I think if I keep watching , I'll never be able to enjoy rewatching previous seasons.

Edited May 22, 2015 by supposebly

[Zanne]

All the ending made me think about was Tippi`s recaps, like "OMG, that fucking cloud that followed them around, that was actually a little part of the Darkness and now it`s free." I knew that cloud was evil.

 

Do anyone you remember the fan comic with Sam's little ball of angst? They used to have it bookmarked on TWoP in the fanfiction thread, but that's what the cloud reminded me of. It must have mated with Dean's ball of angst to make one gigantic universe destroying ball of angst.

[oliverwendell]

 

Do I have that wrong??

 

No. You have that right.  And that is a further annoying thing about this episode.

 

 

The keep retconning and thus making all the previous season moot. I think if I keep watching , I'll never be able to enjoy rewatching previous seasons.

 

I've decided to pretend that everything after Season 5 is a completely different show that also happens to star Jensen Ackles as Dean Winchester and Jared Padalecki as Sam Winchester.  

Edited May 22, 2015 by fourteenwords

[7kstar]

Jared is off social media right now as he is in a major health issue, last word was exhaustion and his last tweets weren't good, hinting he was in a bad place.  Exhaustion can do that though, so he might be fine once he gets some rests and plays a bit.

 

Jensen...is doing conventions...but his opinion that this is/was Carver's best finale????  Now to be fair he didn't say the best ever...lol

 

I think my real issue is I'm mad.  This season now feels pointless and that it was drifting without direction.  I know it isn't really new, but the end just didn't make me care. 

 

Sure I'm glad that the boys are back together fighting the big bad together...

 

But the flip side that makes my blood boil, is they made them dicks and no longer hero's.  It's one thing if you are doing everything you can do to end something terrible and find you've been mislead all along, but to cause the world's worst for what?

 

If we are suppose to believe that love is the winning hand...HOW!!!!

 

Maybe as I get some distance from it I'll feel a little different but right now I suspect it will be three eps of angst and then the boys are back fighting some monster of the week and nothing new in that dept. 

 

Worse, how in the hell did a witch get the upper hand over the King of Hell and an Angel????  They are that useless, that weak?

 

Death is easy to take out, he didn't see that coming?

 

OH well the answer will come and I'm sure I'll watch but it might be like I watched season 7...when I felt like it and I missed more than I saw.

 

I guess it is too much to ask for the fun loving brother's that loved life and saving people.  So since everyone is a monster, who is left to be the hero???  I forgot, they're all dead.

[catrox14]

 

Jensen...is doing conventions...but his opinion that this is/was Carver's best finale????  Now to be fair he didn't say the best ever...lol

 

He said he didn't know how they were going to get out of it, but not that it was great. I think Jared compared it to Swan Song.

[GirlyGeek]

I re watched today, without all the expectations I had on first viewing last night and...

I liked it. No it wasn't the most exciting finale ever, but it was good. A few thoughts..

Dean was broken, he was not Dean. So I don't understand all the hand wringing I'm reading here about m being suddenly sexist or the anger about him calling a dead girl a whore/slut/whatever..? The MOC was driving Dean, and I don't blame him for things he said or did when under its influence.

On the same note, Real Dean would never trade Sam's life. Ever.

I get the feeling that Death had another motivation for telling Dean he had to kill Sam. death even said that Sam basically owed him for standing him up (numerous times). Yes, Sam may have continued to try and save Dean, and Death didn't want that, but I think Death also wanted to set things right. Sam was supposed to be dead many times over, and many would argue that the scales tipped and wreaked havoc from the minute Dean brought Sam back to life, so I could see where Death would want to have Sam dead.

Wow, JA and JP killed me in the restaurant scenes. Especially JP, once he waved the white flag and told Dean to kill him. Beautiful scene. And Dean's "Sammy, close your eyes".

I too don't know how they're gonna fix the mess they're in. The world is broken, and it's the Winchesters fault in many ways.

Which brings me to my major disappointment. The show has shown, for the last few years now, that the boys are causing more trouble than they're fixing. This needs to stop. I need to see Sam and Dean focused on saving the world next season, fixing what they've brought on (whether they did it intentionally or not).

It's the perfect opportunity to see them joined together, same mission, no one can blame the other as they're pretty equally responsible, and they can focus on being 'heroes' (or whatever term you wanna use). Neither brother needs to 'fix' the other at this point as there is no MOC or trials or angel in a Sam or broken hell wall or whatever.

Focus, Carver! and bring the boys together on a mission to right wrongs and save people. I'm sure they'll be plenty to hunt and save. Sound like a mission statement we could use...? Sounds familiar to me!

[Bruinsfan]

 I think Jared compared it to Swan Song.

I thought that season finale sucked donkey balls too, so I have to agree with the comparison.

[catrox14]

Ugh. Why did I have to remember that....oh right because THE END is my favorite episode of the entire show and TIIC just destroyed it.  UGH> / head desk

 

 

[oliverwendell]

 

On the same note, Real Dean would never trade Sam's life. Ever.

 

I think they needed to show us that conversation.  The one where Death says, "I will spare the entire world from the destruction you would wreak with the Mark of Cain, but I won't do it unless you kill Sam first."  And Dean understands this point is non-negotiable, for whatever reason, and decides to accept the condition.  Because in that moment, whether it's Dean alone or the Mark of Cain influencing him, he decided he would sacrifice both Sam and himself (because, let's face it, spending eternity off in some spectral plane sounds a lot like spending eternity in a cage, like Lucifer -- a fate actually worse than death) to save the world.  

 

This did happen, I think.  But it happened off-camera.  And I think that was a mistake.  Because without that scene, too many people are trying too hard to figure out why Dean thought he had to kill Sam, and why Sam was willing to be killed.  It's messy.

[AwesomO4000]

Dean summoning death to kill him for good and avoid the Mark resurrecting him as a demon makes sense. Death saying he can't do that unless the Mark is shared because the Mark is a lock created by God to keep the original darkness away from the universe and can't/shouldn't be destroyed, makes somewhat less sense but is a cool idea so I'll run with it. Dean (or Death, it's not clear if this was a condition of his) decides it is necessary for Sam to get killed so he doesn't eventually come find Dean and/or fuck up the arrangements death is putting into place for Dean to be put away somewhere safe. Okay, way less sense than the first two parts of the plan but again I'll try to run with it. But I cannot make any sense a tall of why Dean would kill death, much less how Supernatural's version of death could even be killed. There is no fanwank I have read or imagined that can help me here.

 

Ooh ooh ooh - I thought of one: A fanwank that is. Here goes: To me, Dean seemed a bit surprised he killed Death, and I wasn't sure why it appeared that way, but what if it was because... the mark did it! The mark of Cain sensing Dean's plan did not like the idea that it was going to be locked in spaaaace (or wherever) forever, because it wanted to do evil. It wanted Dean to do something with the book after all, so apparently it had some "awareness" or sixth sense or something. So given the opportunity it got with the scythe, the mark gave one last gasp to try to save itself and killed the being that was going to banish it. Originally it should've wanted to kill Sam - which is maybe why Dean considered the plan to kill Sam originally - because Sam was trying to get rid of it after all, but of the two things... being removed and at least getting to cause havoc to be wreaked or being banished to be limp and useless with no outlet for doing evil, the mark chose option 1 and that meant killing the one being in all the world who could banish it forever and save the world from it... so my theory is the mark gave one final F$%^ you to everybody by causing Dean to kill the potential architect of its banishment. "Mwah ha ha," says the mark. "You wanted me gone? You wanted to banish ME? Well here you go and choke on it!" ... And all this will be explained when at some point in the first episode Sam asks Dean - "Dean what happened back there, anyway? You were really rocking that going to kill me thing, so what made you change your mind? " (A la "Point of No Return") and Dean answers "I was going to, and then all of a sudden I had this impulse. I think it just didn't want to be locked away." Sam: "It?" Dean: "The mark. Guess that's a moot point now."

 

And thus endth my fanwank. ::Pats my little fanwank like a proud parent::

 

Also??  What about the First Blade??  Dean killed Cain with that thing.  Why couldn't he get somebody to kill him with it?  Cas even knows where the Blade is, for pete's sake!! I get he's all 'roided up and such, but surely a garrison of angels could hold him down while somebody stabbed him???  He didn't really need to be parked out in space somewhere for all eternity, and he certainly didn't need to kill Sam!  More importantly:  if I could think of this gargantuan hole in the story in less than 24 hours, why didn't somebody in the writer's room think of it at some point during the months since they broke it???  They are professionals! 

 

Dean would have had to willingly pass the mark on to someone else that the mark found worthy first. It was the whole reason only Dean could kill Cain. Without the mark, the First Blade is useless and couldn't kill Dean permanently. So even if Dean was killed, there would still be someone else with the mark, so I don't think Dean would ever willingly pass it on that way just as he told Death in this episode that he never would do that even to share the burden.

[GirlyGeek]

Re: killing Death, to be fair, SPN made this canon back in Season 5.  Dean went to Chicago with Death's blade because it was supposed to be able to kill Death.

So, its always been canon that Death could possibly die by his own scythe

[miles2go]

Re: killing Death, to be fair, SPN made this canon back in Season 5.  Dean went to Chicago with Death's blade because it was supposed to be able to kill Death.

So, its always been canon that Death could possibly die by his own scythe

 

I didn't remember that, but you're right.  

 

Hum!  What now, I wonder?  Will it be like that Torchwood series, in which nobody can die? (shudders)

[supposebly]

AwesomO4000, I hope you didn't hurt yourself with that one. ;-)

 

I think he was surprised because he didn't expect it to be that easy to kill Death. Just like everyone else.

 

Never had a problem with the actual killing of Death. Although that opens up a whole can of worms. The whole basis of this show is about killing things. If there is no Death, what are they going to do? I have a problem with Death suggesting Sam is such a big problem that he needs killing. That's just lame. The brotherly love is so powerful that he will find him in a galaxy far far away. It's like a sci-fi soap.

 

But then, the whole of creation is gone, so who cares, right?

[GirlyGeek]

I have a problem with Death suggesting Sam is such a big problem that he needs killing. That's just lame. The brotherly love is so powerful that he will find him in a galaxy far far away. It's like a sci-fi soap.

 

I think Death has been sore about Sam being alive for a long while, actually.  The natural order was messed up by Dean way back in Season 2 and Sam's been saved from death many times since.  

He just wanted the soul he's been due for years now.  Back in S7 Death made a big show about Dean and Sam ruining his natural order.

[AwesomO4000]

AwesomO4000, I hope you didn't hurt yourself with that one. ;-)

 

Nah, after the initial eureka, it just flowed.

 

I am good at making fanwanks. That isn't even my most fanwankiest... that was probably the fanwank of Lucifer's Jealous Indignation which explained how Sam was able to get Lucifer to fall into the hole in "Swan Song." That one required diagrams and maybe a differential equation or two, or at least about 3 paragraphs. ; )

 

I think he was surprised because he didn't expect it to be that easy to kill Death. Just like everyone else.

 

But to me Dean seemed even surprised before Death went poof - like he was actually surprised he hit Death in the first place. I'll have to watch again to see if I'm remembering that incorrectly. As for Death being easy to kill, as GirlyGeek said above, Crowley proposed it was as easy as hitting Death with his own scythe as well in season 5. Crowley was even able to somehow get a hold of Death's scythe in the first place so, despite Death being very powerful, apparently if you know the right information and get the right moment, killing Death isn't as difficult as it would seem.

 

And once again, a powerful being underestimates the Winchesters. Crowely is right - they just don't learn.

Edited May 22, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[miles2go]

I think Death has been sore about Sam being alive for a long while, actually.  The natural order was messed up by Dean way back in Season 2 and Sam's been saved from death many times since.  

He just wanted the soul he's been due for years now.  Back in S7 Death made a big show about Dean and Sam ruining his natural order.

 

That was my impression, too. Sam owed him a death.That was the bargain: Death would send Dean to a far away place where he couldn't hurt anyone, on condition that Sam  finally die.  I'm not entirely clear why he expected Dean to be Sam's executioner, though.

[catrox14]

 

e: killing Death, to be fair, SPN made this canon back in Season 5.  Dean went to Chicago with Death's blade because it was supposed to be able to kill Death.

So, its always been canon that Death could possibly die by his own scythe

 

Death had control over that scythe. He caused it to become so hot Dean couldn't touch it.  So it seems like he can control it to some extent.

 

Awesome04000 I like your fanwank. 

[catrox14]

I agree totally that Dean seemed surprised by killing Death. I thought something else made him do that. Maybe the Mark made him kill Death or maybe Death wanted out and compelled to Dean to kill him and take over as Death.  I've been thinking back to Executioner's Song when we heard the thunder after Dean killed Cain. Perhaps that was a signal to the Mark to dig in further and capture Dean's soul more because it wanted out.  

 

I really feel like they should have ended the season with The Prisoner plus Dean summoning Death. They could have stretched Rowena freeing Dean of the Mark for the premiere. I mean for me I would be far more inclined to come back to know if Dean killed Cas and let the Darkness out in the premiere of s11.  Bleh. 

[rue721]

As for Death being easy to kill, as GirlyGeek said above, Crowley proposed it was as easy as hitting Death with his own scythe as well in season 5. Crowley was even able to somehow get a hold of Death's scythe in the first place so, despite Death being very powerful, apparently if you know the right information and get the right moment, killing Death isn't as difficult as it would seem.

 

Seems like Crowley (and the angels) in particular wouldn't want to kill Death. Because how are they going to get souls now? I mean, if nobody dies and/or gets reaped.

 

I guess Crowley could try and set up some kind of dragging-people-into-Hell side business with his hell hounds? :P

[dr pepper]

Finally got a chance to watch. And ... what?

 

When was the last time Dean and Sam were actually successful in defeating a "big bad" that didn't result in some sort of horrible "consequence"? It seems like there's never a win. Whatever they've done at the end of one season leads to new levels of suck in the next. There's no hope, there's no joy - it's just all dark all the time.

 

Maybe they've been in Hell for the past 6 or so seasons. Don't they say false hope is the greatest torture?

[DittyDotDot]

He said he didn't know how they were going to get out of it, but not that it was great. I think Jared compared it to Swan Song.

 

I thought Jensen commented that he thought is was Carver's best finale, too. But as I mentioned to someone else yesterday, I don't necessarily disagree with him. It's not like any of Carver's finale's have been very good, IMO. To me, they've all been kind of meandering and full of long-winded speeches that seem like someone thinks he's deeper than he really is. And, I find Carver tends to skip over what's actually important and instead tells us things that seem really obvious and doesn't need all the 'splaining. So it's like a tortoise coming in first place in a race with a slug and a snail.

 

I agree with Jared too, IMO, it was Bizarro Swan Song...in which, Sam gets pummeled to show Dean how much he loves him which also compels Dean to take control long enough to take out a big player. Bizarro twists would be: Photos stood in for a toy soldier; Death wasn't an actual problem, as far as we knew; Dean didn't die; and an apocalypse was started rather than ended.

 

Now, I'm not someone who loved Swan Song, but IMO this episode paled in so many ways to Swan Song. Everything was so easy and everyday until the big bad black smoke and then it was over. They killed Death and it felt like just another day at the office. The whole episode felt like it was spinning it's wheels while waiting to show us the special effects of the Darkness, but even that seemed rather uninspiring to me. I don't know, I just didn't really feel much of anything while watching it. At least during Swan Song I was worried about Dean and what he would do. Here, I really just didn't care anymore.

 

I get the feeling that Death had another motivation for telling Dean he had to kill Sam. death even said that Sam basically owed him for standing him up (numerous times). Yes, Sam may have continued to try and save Dean, and Death didn't want that, but I think Death also wanted to set things right. Sam was supposed to be dead many times over, and many would argue that the scales tipped and wreaked havoc from the minute Dean brought Sam back to life, so I could see where Death would want to have Sam dead.

 

I totally got why Death would want Sam dead, obviously Sam wasn't going to let things go this time. And I figured Dean volunteered to be the one to do it because he probably felt it was better for him to do it rather than Death. But, I kept thinking Death was also testing Dean. Almost like he was wanting proof Dean had finally learned the lesson Death had been trying to teach him all these years. But they played it so straight in the end, so I'm now not sure if there was anything more to it.

 

I think they needed to show us that conversation.  The one where Death says, "I will spare the entire world from the destruction you would wreak with the Mark of Cain, but I won't do it unless you kill Sam first."  And Dean understands this point is non-negotiable, for whatever reason, and decides to accept the condition.  Because in that moment, whether it's Dean alone or the Mark of Cain influencing him, he decided he would sacrifice both Sam and himself (because, let's face it, spending eternity off in some spectral plane sounds a lot like spending eternity in a cage, like Lucifer -- a fate actually worse than death) to save the world.  

 

This did happen, I think.  But it happened off-camera.  And I think that was a mistake.  Because without that scene, too many people are trying too hard to figure out why Dean thought he had to kill Sam, and why Sam was willing to be killed.  It's messy.

 

I find I say that about most of Carver's episodes lately. The important things seems to happen off camera. Sam's confession at the end of S8; what Sam did before he hit the dog and what Dean did before he met Benny in Purgatory; etc. It's not like I can't guess these things happened, but the story looses it's potency for me when he skips over these character developments. It's like he wants to have a character driven show, but doesn't want the characters to actually drive the show. Does that even make any sense? Sorry, moving on.

 

I've decided to pretend that everything after Season 5 is a completely different show that also happens to star Jensen Ackles as Dean Winchester and Jared Padalecki as Sam Winchester.  

 

I've been saying the show makes more sense--okay not so much the show as a whole, but the characters anyway--if you pretend S8 and on is a different show with characters named Sam and Dean Winchester, but aren't. It doesn't solve all my issues with the show, but my biggest frustration--why are Sam and Dean acting not like Sam and Dean--is less so this way.

[bethy]

I like the idea that it was the Mark that somehow motivated Dean's unexpected swing at and killing of Death. I think, too, it was the Mark's influence that even made Dean consider killing Sam at all. That was what it wanted from the beginning, right? That was what everyone kept telling Dean was going to happen? Though... killing Death would stop the killing of Sam, so maybe the Mark couldn't influence both of those actions.

Or maybe killing - or just swinging the scythe at - Death was Dean breaking through the influence of the Mark, not a conscious "Saving Sam is worth unleashing the Darkness," kind of act, but a "I don't want to kill my brother, you shut up," kind of thing.

I thought Sam's "This doesn't make any sense!" was the best line of the night. Because it's true!

[Aeryn13]

 

not a conscious "Saving Sam is worth unleashing the Darkness,

 

For Dean, unleashing the darkness at that point was never the question. Death literally told him that even, he, Death could not kill him because he was needed to carry the Mark and the Mark was the lock. What Dean had to fear was not being put in a safe zone, maybe turning back into a demon down the line and flipping out. But never unleashing the darkness. Dean had to fear living with the Mark indefinitely. Which would be synonymous with "no darkness EVER".

 

At no time in the episode did Dean know the spell was happening, right? Like, he ddn`t even know why the Mark suddenly disappeared in the end? That it was not him not killing Sam or him killing Death but Rowena`s spell?

 

Sam had to fear unleashing it from the moment Death and Dean told him. He knew the spell was put into motion and if it succeeded, then the darkness would be freed. I don`t know what he thought would happen actually IF Dean killed him. Because in that case, Death would have kept his word, Rowena`s spell would still have happened and Dean still be cured and the darkness still be unleashed. What did Sam figured a newly cured Dean might/would do if the primordial evil came to the world? "Finding your way back to love" is not a big priority then. 

 

 

I mean, he was trying to save the world (from ~The Drakness!~).*** So now I just feel awful that Dean screwed him over and screwed the whole world over, apparently

 

Again, why Dean? He was the one person who had zero ideas that the darkness was being unleashed no matter what he did in that bar because it was already in motion. Dean never effected the outcome so I fail to see why he gets the blame for it.

 

And what, did a super-powerful being like Death NOT know what had already been put in motion? Even if Sam didn`t mention it? If Death ACTUALLY wanted to save the world from the darkness, he should have hightailed it out of there and killed Rowena.  

Edited May 22, 2015 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

I thought Jensen commented that he thought is was Carver's best finale, too. But as I mentioned to someone else yesterday, I don't necessarily disagree with

Damning with feint praise? I dunno. I wonder if what was in script and was filmed was edited into what we got. I mean he might have read it and was happy but then something changes. But of course Jensen is not particularly critical publicly about things. I mean for him to say he and the writers wished demon! Dean had been around longer and that he didn't understand what they're doing with Fan Fiction is about the strongest, most public disagreement I've heard him mention.

Heh. I was thinking, what if they actually just killed off all of the main four in one fell swoop. The boys die together and Cas kills Crowley and then he dies. That would be amazing.

And awful. I think it might be that all four have to actually become allies now for real to beat down the darkness. TEAM NOT EXACTLY FREE WILL

[DittyDotDot]

Damning with feint praise? I dunno. I wonder if what was in script and was filmed was edited into what we got. I mean he might have read it and was happy but then something changes. But of course Jensen is not particularly critical publicly about things. I mean for him to say he and the writers wished demon! Dean had been around longer and that he didn't understand what they're doing with Fan Fiction is about the strongest, most public disagreement I've heard him mention.

 

I think you misunderstood me. I was damning it with feint praise, I think Jensen was really being earnest with what he said.

 

I think sometimes Jared and Jensen have fond memories of the shooting of episodes, but don't necessarily see them in the same context we viewers do. And, just because Jensen likes something doesn't automatically mean I will anyway.

[catrox14]

I was referring to Jensen saying it was carvers best and I was saying that IMO Jensen might have been damning with feint praise.

Posting mobile so quoting is a pain. Sorry if that confused things.

Jensen is savvy enough to say what he wants to say without ruffling feathers too much and not biting off the hand that feeds him.

Like I said, what he read and thought was being filmed may not be what we saw. Maybe things were cut for time or moves around in editing. But regardless he isn't likely to come right out and say l it sucked even if he held the opinion which I don't know if does or doesn't. Jmho

Edited May 22, 2015 by catrox14

[Omegamom]

If Death was so worried about Sam "rescuing" Dean from his proposed millennia-long exile, why not just send Sam along, too?

I felt Dean was surprised at killing Death, too. In fact, he seemed surprised as the scythe went past Sam.

Am I misremembering a preview? I could swear I saw a scene with Death saying, "There is one condition, and it is non-negotiable." But I don't remember seeing it in the episode. That would fit in with the editing premise...

Why on earth wasn't Dean freaked out at the MoC disappearing? Like a "What the hell?!?" Gah. We'll get angry brothers in the premiere, with Dean blaming Sam for the Darkness.

Three Big Baddies next season: The Darkness, Rowena, and Metatron with the Demon Tablet. Hah! I'll bet there's a "Darkness Tablet", and they'll have to find Metatron and do a deal with him to get and translate the tablet.

[Bruinsfan]

Regarding the big special effect cloud o' doom that all this claptrap was leading up to, the beginning of Season 3 did it much better:

https://youtu.be/5z9aA8bRIKg?t=52s

[catrox14]

 

I could swear I saw a scene with Death saying, "There is one condition, and it is non-negotiable." But I don't remember seeing it in the episode. That would fit in with the editing premise...

 

I remember that from the preview, as ell and I don't see what Death was offering was non-negotiable. The entire thing was a negotiation.

 

I am settling on Dean not expecting what happened to happen. He was completely confused and shocked IMO.  I think Dean fully intended to kill Sam, be blasted into Oblivion and the world is saved from both of them..with theoretically Sam in Heaven. I really do wonder if that was the intention all along before renewal. That maybe Carver had the entire end in mind at the beginning of the season based on no renewal but had to think of a new ending based on the renewal?

 

So some fanwanking/spec that might explain Death's death.  

 

Jared had that star tattoo that we saw on Facebook. ( I really hope someone asks him about it). 

 

What if Sam had the star tattoo but we just didn't see and it protected him from being killed? That maybe it was automagically put on his arm by some entity or a spell and he didn't even know it was there? Or Charlie had sent him information that said 'Sam, you need this tattoo to protect you from any monkey business'.

 

That might be why he was willing to go ahead and let Dean kill him because he knew he was protected and then he could still save Dean because the spell was on it's way? And that's why he had Dean's hair and pictures of Dean and Mary. Unless he just randomly carried those with him all the time.

Edited May 22, 2015 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

 

 

If Death was so worried about Sam "rescuing" Dean from his proposed millennia-long exile, why not just send Sam along, too?

 

Nothing about that made sense. 

 

Dean agreed to go to a time-out box to save the word from himself. And Death said "fine, okay, but to save the world from the darkness we have to stop Sam from ever meddling. For that reason, YOU must kill him. And you have to use the only weapon than can kill me to do so."

 

Say what? Like I said, if Death wanted to save the world from the Darkness, he should have killed Rowena. He could have still put Dean in the time-out box afterwards to save the world from Dean.

 

Not that Death did EITHER of his own volition. He only spilled about the Mark because Dean asked him to kill him. So, if Dean hadn`t done that and was still in the process of trashing his motel room when the Mark disappeared, Death would not have given a shit about the darkness being released, right?

 

As for Sam, I can only imagine what went through his head as he knelt before Dean like a sacrifical lamb. "The thing I`ll regret most is not being around to see both their dumb faces when the Mark is gone in T minus 1 second."  Well, guess he could have figured Dean would be safe in his time-out box and he himself would be dead while the rest of the world was being devoured by the Darkness.

 

Carver-fail at its best. No character made the slightest bit of sense.

 

 

Why on earth wasn't Dean freaked out at the MoC disappearing? Like a "What the hell?!?" Gah. We'll get angry brothers in the premiere, with Dean blaming Sam for the Darkness.

 

I guess there will be a scene like this:

 

Dean:  "OMG, how is the Mark gone all of a sudden. I don`t understand."

Sam:  "Um..."

Dean: "Do you think it was me killing Death that did it?"

Sam:  "Um..."

Dean: "Sam, why is your eye twitching?"

Sam:  "Um...":

[catrox14]

 

Why on earth wasn't Dean freaked out at the MoC disappearing? Like a "What the hell?!?" Gah. We'll get angry brothers in the premiere, with Dean blaming Sam for the Darkness

 

He seemed pretty freaked out to me, but because everything started falling apart he didn't really have time to go into the WTFery of it all. And frankly if Dean does blame Sam he's not entirely wrong.  Dean taking on the Mark started the mess (just like breaking the first seal)but Sam didn't put a stop to the proceedings when he could have because he was so desperate to save DeanDean had absolutely NO knowledge of what was going on. No one told him they were still continuing and he wasn't around to know about. 

 

So yeah there is really nothing Dean did aside from ever taking on the Mark in the first place which Crowley lead him towards.  What if this had been Crowley's plan all along? To let the Darkness out?

[rue721]

Again, why Dean? He was the one person who had zero ideas that the darkness was being unleashed no matter what he did in that bar because it was already in motion. Dean never effected the outcome so I fail to see why he gets the blame for it.

 

Death had already told him that in order to save the world from the Mark *and* the Darkness, he was going to need to put Dean in some impenetrable bubble. But instead of going into the impenetrable bubble, Dean killed Death. He knew that he wasn't making the right choice, imo that's why he looked so shocked at himself when he did it. He was rescuing himself from imprisonment, but only by destroying the world. Of course Sam was awful/nonsensical, too, because apparently they're both selfish idiots nowadays.

 

Killing Death screws everyone over by still putting them in danger from the Mark. It also screws Death *and* everyone else over to kill Death just in and of itself. They've found that out in multiple episodes. It's more or less its own little apocalypse for there to be no Death. And Death claimed he wanted to get Sam out of the equation because Sam didn't care if he destroyed the world while trying to get the Mark off his brother -- so apparently everybody in that room, including Dean, knew that it was inevitable that he and Sam would end up unleashing the Darkness at some point if they didn't follow Death's plan. So that was another apocalypse they were going to trigger at some point. Unlucky for them, they didn't even get a grace period before that happened, they triggered it literally minutes later. 

 

Anyway, I really hope they don't blame each other and that the show plays the blame game for YET ANOTHER SEASON. This show is so self-sabotaging. What's with destroying the brothers' relationship? It's the main thing that the show ever even had going for it.

 

I thought Jensen commented that he thought is was Carver's best finale, too. But as I mentioned to someone else yesterday, I don't necessarily disagree with him. It's not like any of Carver's finale's have been very good, IMO.

 

They've all been pretty shitty. But I thought that the S8 finale had some good scenes between Sam and Crowley in the church, and I liked the angles falling from the sky at the end. The S9 finale was worse imo, but from when Dean gets stabbed to when he comes back as a demon was pretty good. This finale didn't even have any of those "highs" imo. The "cliffhanger" sucks, the whole storyline makes very little logical sense, and it felt like a mediocre MotW most of the way through and didn't have much suspense anyway. They wrapped up as many stories as they could in the most anticlimactic way possible imo. Who knows why.

 

I think sometimes Jared and Jensen have fond memories of the shooting of episodes, but don't necessarily see them in the same context we viewers do.

 

I agree. And I can see how this episode would have been fun for him to shoot. There are a lot of scenes that turned on a dime just from a change in Dean's demeanor. Plus, JA got to do more "demon!Dean-eque" stuff in this episode than he did while actually playing demon!Dean.

[Aeryn13]

 

Death had already told him that in order to save the world from the Mark *and* the Darkness, he was going to need to put Dean in some impenetrable bubble.

 

Death said that the Mark was a lock. And that he, Death, would remove it if Dean agreed to multiply it first. If Dean had remained on Earth WITH the mark, the darkness would still be permanently stopped. The episode made that very clear IMO. Death`s information made that very clear. The only thing that unleashed the Darkness was for the Mark to be gone. It didn`t matter where Dean had it. 

 

The safety box was only about keeping Dean in an enviroment where he did no harm. Keeping the mark safe, that is where that whimsical business of killing Sam came in, Because Death figured Sam would not only try and bring Dean back from Planet Safe (whereever that was) - which wouldn`t have been a problem - but also remove the Mark. He said that to Sam. THAT was the problem, that is why Death wanted him killed.

 

Which, joke on him, because Sam had already done all he needed to do and things were already in motion.  

 

As for killing Death, I agree that it was ridiculous. But Dean didn`do it to save himself. That wasn`t even remotely his motivation for me. He did it because once again he could not let Sam die which in this case meant killing him himself. While I`m no fan of their codepedency, Dean killing Death so to not go to a "prison world" is simply not feasible to me with the way the episode played or Dean`s character over the last 10 years.

 

I`m sure if Death would have relented on the killing Sam thing, Dean would have happily gone.  He is unhealthily fiixated on Sam -  as now vice versa - but he isn`t a coward who wouldn`t give his OWN life for a mission. Not once in the show has he been that guy. 

 

Also, I`m reasonably sure killing Death will have NO consequences whatsoever. Carver eats previous canon for breakfast. People will still die. And nothing will happen from it.

 

 

Unlucky for them, they didn't even get a grace period before that happened, they triggered it literally minutes later.

 

It was already triggered. When Dean called Death, everything was already a done deal. If they had followed Death`s plan, it would still have been a done deal. Granted, Dean didn`t know that but his actions changed nothing.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Aeryn13

[supposebly]

Death is quite an idiot. He knows those two. Probably better than any other human. Asking one of them to kill the other is stupid. He should have done it himself. Again, why didn't he if he thought that that was the most important. He really should have killed Sam himself.

 

 

"The thing I`ll regret most is not being around to see both their dumb faces when the Mark is gone in T minus 1 second."

 

That was my thinking when I saw him kneeling. Why doesn't he call Cas? Why doesn't he say anything?

 

So, again, we have Sam causing an apocalypse, this time intentionally? How is he supposed to explain next season that he didn't say? That he fully knowledgeably let things happen while letting Dean kill him? How did anyone think that made any sense whatsoever?

[catrox14]

If I were the showrunners, I would say that all those things were happening concurrently so Sam wouldn't have been able to stop the proceedings.

[supposebly]

Yeah, that's not gonna work for me.

[catrox14]

Posting this here, but also in the SuperNormal thread. 

 

Adam Glass is leaving the show. Not kidding. :(

[Aeryn13]

Thing is, in the Season 4 Finale we had Dean racing to catch Sam before he killed Lilith because he finally had the necessary information. Because he thought if he told Sam what was what, Sam would not kill her. I think he would have been totally correct in that assumption.

 

So, here, we have Death finally giving the necessary information. He never bothered before despite the Mark being down to one guy and his brother having set in motion a spell to remove it. But okay, lets say, Death who knows everything didn`t know that. Dean didn`t know about the spell. Then Sam comes in and learns about it. This is it, this is the "Sam gets important information" moment.

 

Now more than anything this would have been the cue to go "holy shit, guys, it might already be too late". Take out his phone IMMEDIATELY and try to call Cas to call it off. Try to "pray and long" really hard at Cas. Tell Death so he could stop the preceedings.

 

If it had already been too late, fair enough. But at least TRY. What was the point of going to his death then? What was the point of getting Dean to safety from himself then? I fully believe the spell would have reached Dean whenever/wherever. Death`s safety box or not. Why? Because if Death believed Sam could have found a way to each Dean, bring him back and remove the Mark after all, then it wasn`t so secure anyhow. And then the spell from the evil book of evil damnation would have reached its target no matter where in the universe.

 

The entire scene was written as if Sam just forgot. Though then in the end the Mark is gone, Dean looks like "WTF" and "oh shit" and Sam says "this is a good tihng".

No, it`s not. You can`t really think that anymore. You could before Death told you everything but now it`s most definitely not a good thing.    

[Aeryn13]

Sorry, double post.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Aeryn13

[Goldmoon]

 

Ugh. Why did I have to remember that....oh right because THE END is my favorite episode of the entire show and TIIC just destroyed it.  UGH> / head desk (Catrox)14

How is it destroyed Catrox?

 

 

I guess it is too much to ask for the fun loving brother's that loved life and saving people.

No kidding.

 

 

Anyway, I really hope they don't blame each other and that the show plays the blame game for YET ANOTHER SEASON. This show is so self-sabotaging. What's with destroying the brothers' relationship? It's the main thing that the show ever even had going for it. (rue721)

Seriously, they have been fighting since Season 8 and it is not good drama. Someone needs to take lessens in storytelling over there.

 

 

Dr. Pepper postulated that p

 

 

erhaps they have all been in Hell for the past six or so seasons.  Hmm.  Bobby Ewing was just in the shower and that season of Dallas never happened.  St. Elsewhere was in the mind of a boy.  How can we make this work? Sorry about the quote box.  How do you REMOVE the quote box if you didn't really want it?

How can we make the Bobby's in the Shower surprise work for the Winchesters?  At what point do we reset?  I do like the idea that John goes back in time and undoes his deal with Azazel, although it was Sam and Dean who have messed up so much, so it should be Dean's deal for Sam's life that gets reset.

 

How about we start a thread with the Season 11 Show Bible and write each episode correctly?  Lets start with Awesome's idea:  at some point in the first episode Sam asks Dean - "Dean what happened back there, anyway? You were really rocking that going to kill me thing, so what made you change your mind? " (A la "Point of No Return") and Dean answers "I was going to, and then all of a sudden I had this impulse. I think it just didn't want to be locked away." Sam: "It?" Dean: "The mark. Guess that's a moot point now."

 

The boys can be FRIENDS for the whole season and not play any type of blame game.  11 should NOT end on a cliffhanger.  Let them wrap up a story and win for once.  In fact let them contain the darkness in episode 3 and chase MoTWs for the next 20 episodes and enjoy brotherly banter, the occasional soda instead of beer, and bring Jodi and Donna back and let them live!  Carver really needs to stop taking lessens from the Vampire Diaries.  They are all about shock value over there.

 

 

 

[catrox14]

 

Ugh. Why did I have to remember that....oh right because THE END is my favorite episode of the entire show and TIIC just destroyed it.  UGH> / head desk (Catrox)14

How is it destroyed Catrox?

 

Supposably posted the dialogue that addresses more succintly.

 

In the THE END Lucifer was banished for not loving humans more than he loved God. He thought humans were beneath him and he could not understand how God could expect him to bow down to the imperfect hairless apes. He wasn't jealous of the humans he just simply believed that the Archangels and God were superior to humans and that it was absurd that that God should expect him to worship imperfect creatures. 

 

Now it's all because the Big Meanie was warring with God and Lucifer was the trusted Leftenant with the Mark to keep the Big Meanie under lock and key but the Big Meanie is what made Lucifer jealous for reasons...and that's why he was banished vs being banished for not loving humanity as God wanted him too and him making his choices of his own accord. Essentially it lets Lucifer off the hook and I don't like that at all and  it makes Lucifer a far less compelling character and far less scary.

 

And it negates the parallel to the relationship between John and his sons and God and Michael and Lucifer.  It's all just blamed on the Big Meanie and not Lucifer's choices.  Mileage varies. 

 

[catrox14]

On a shallow note.  Dean and Sam brawling is way hotter than it should be. Whew....

[AwesomO4000]

If I were the showrunners, I would say that all those things were happening concurrently so Sam wouldn't have been able to stop the proceedings.

 

That's assuming that these writers care about making Sam not look like an idiot and/or the crappiest brother/person ever. As I've been saying for seasons, I don't think they do. In my opinion Sera Gamble was maybe the last writer who really cared about that. To me it almost looks like Carver thought to himself "Oh, look, Sam was starting to look sympathetic again... time to make him responsible for starting another apocalypse!" I agree with Aeryn13: killing Death is likely going to have no negative effect at all... the apocalypse is going to all be on Sam, and we'll hear about it for how many seasons we have left how Sam started the apocalypse again and how arrogant and crappy he is from every character we meet.

 

But I predicted this many, many episodes ago anyway, so I was ready for it. At this point if this stands as is, I'll mostly be hate-watching. Except for "Fan Fiction" and the occasional episode here and there - unless something drastic happens - I'm ready to pretend that everything after the end of season 7 didn't happen. To me, in comparison to this stuff, season 7 was brilliant. We had one overarching main storyline/villain. The villains were amusing. The brothers had one minor disagreement that made sense and was resolved within an episode of the conflict between then, and not only resolved, but their relationship became better because of it. There were some fun episodes along the way. The brothers saved each other, but in a positive way. They lost Bobby, but let him go in the end, and he went to heaven (we thought, and would still think if not for the LOL-canon rewrite in season 8). And they actually killed the bad guys! Yes, Dean went to purgatory, but in my mind I could rewrite a much better season 8 - in my opinion - where Dean had adventures in purgatory while Sam actually did something interesting also - like go find and save Kevin and look for Dean, maybe if not finding Dean, at least finding interesting stuff on the way. None of this Dean is the only one who ever actually kills the bad guys and Sam is always the perpetual screw up that Carver seems to be giving us with this ending.  We seem for Sam to be doomed to being how Garth described him in "Sharp Teeth"... "Sam here -- Sam can be a bit insecure at times, but for good reason. Bless his heart."

 

 

Posting this here, but also in the SuperNormal thread. 

 

Adam Glass is leaving the show. Not kidding. :(

 

Potentially unpopular opinion here: I'm not sure I can be all that upset about this. Even though Adam Glass wrote "Mommy Dearest," which I loved, he's been somewhat inconsistent for me. He's written some very good Dean episodes ("Bad Boys" and "About a Boy"), and did write "Mother's Little Helper," but he's also written some episodes that were really horrendous in my opinion in terms of Sam - including "Sharp Teeth" with the above mentioned Sam-quote. Also "Southern Comfort" with some of my most hated Sam moments ever, and two of the most dumbed-down Sam episodes ever "Defending Your Life" (the worst episode of season 7 in my opinion) and "As Time Goes By" where Sam is a huge damsel in distress who just passively allows himself to be a pawn in the exchange of some potentially world-damaging stuff so that Henry can be the hero. I haven't been too fond of his werewolf episodes either, so if they get in a writer who actually seems to like Sam, too in his place, I personally might enjoy the change. Miles vary there I realize.

 

 

In the THE END Lucifer was banished for not loving humans more than he loved God. He thought humans were beneath him and he could not understand how God could expect him to bow down to the imperfect hairless apes. He wasn't jealous of the humans he just simply believed that the Archangels and God were superior to humans and that it was absurd that that God should expect him to worship imperfect creatures.

 

I think that there was also always an element of jealousy as well. Gabriel referred to it in "Hammer of the Gods" when he talked about Lucifer being "jealous of the new baby (humanity)" and so smashing all his "toys" (having a temper tantrum and creating demons) in protest. So the jealousy part was also always there, in my opinion, and to me made sense as to why he fell in the hole in "Swan Song" - he was jealous again and indignant that he couldn't have what Sam and Dean had with his brother and that, he, Lucifer was the less favored.

 

The rest though I mostly agree with (see below) and will choose to just think Death was wrong, misinformed, or interpreted things incorrectly, because the rest yeah. Let's make it so that Lucifer isn't culpable for his actions by blaming it on the mark of Cain. Because yup the main thing a big evil meanie would be is not evil, but jealous - yeah that makes a lot of sense. It just sounds like they wanted to change canon so as to make it really, reaaally sure we know: none of this is Dean's fault. It's all the mark. See even an archangel couldn't handle it! ::Le sigh:: I already didn't blame Dean, and yeah we get it... Dean couldn't help it. He tried really hard and told Sam a million times not to mes with the mark... even Death himself told Sam, and Castiel, and Crowley, and Bobby, and okay! Okay! I get it: it's all Sam's fault and geesh, could this episode be any worse at once again making Sam the goat here? What is Carver's beef with Sam? Why do I continue to watch him destroy my favorite character here even as he's pretending that's not what he's doing?

 

Wow I think I am starting to hate this episode more and more as I think about the Sam character destruction. Carver's really not trying to hide it any more is he?

 

And it negates the parallel to the relationship between John and his sons and God and Michael and Lucifer.  It's all just blamed on the Big Meanie and not Lucifer's choices.

 

What kind of parallels? For me the jealousy is important for the parallels and contrasts.

[Aeryn13]

 

It just sounds like they wanted to change canon so as to make it really, reaaally sure we know: none of this is Dean's fault. It's all the mark. See even an archangel couldn't handle it!

 

I think that moment flew by so fast, it most likely didn`t register enough with most viewers. When these writers want to make a point, they ram it into the ground and making Dean look good was IMO not one they wanted to make in the Finale. Sam had moments in the bar scene where he looked almost like a saint in comparism. But overall, for this episode, I`m not sure they wanted to make either brother look good or bad because noone and nothing made sense. Characters acted totally confusing and their motivations and actions were largely "WTF???""

 

As for the blame game next Season, I`m not convinced it won`t be somehow turned around on Dean. Or, it might be shared equally. Or, they might drop it for the most part. Dean likely will feel guilty and question his "killer DNA" once more.

 

The really, really sad thing to come out of this Finale is that at this pojnt in time, if the Darkness would actually kill the Winchesters, it would be a hero for taking out the biggest threat to humanity. No bad guy has ever been this effective in starting this many apocalypses. They were just lucky that each one was so lame.

[supposebly]

Well, I guess the family business now is: Saving Winchesters, creating apocalypses.......?

[catrox14]

Just because Gabriel said it was jealousy on Lucifer's part IMO didn't make it so. But then I have a lot of issues with Gabriel being thrust into the middle instead of just being the Trickster so you know take my following opinion with a grain of salt.  IMO saying it's jealousy reduces it to something petty vs the deep seated issues they have with John.

 

Sam was banished by John because he wanted to go his own way and the punishment didn't fit the crime of wanting to go to college. Dean was trying to still be the good son by staying with John and hunting. That's the parallel to Lucifer and Michael. Not jealousy.   

 

So now it's saying this Big Meanie was causing Lucifer to be jealous. Bleh. It's a lazy thing. IMO

[supposebly]

 

The really, really sad thing to come out of this Finale is that at this pojnt in time, if the Darkness would actually kill the Winchesters, it would be a hero for taking out the biggest threat to humanity. No bad guy has ever been this effective in starting this many apocalypses.

 

Congratulations Carver, you made the Winchesters the bad guy. I wonder if Kripke watches this.

[catrox14]

Well, I've been saying since Carver borked up Sam's character in s8, and then had Dean ignore Sam's agency trying to save his life via unapproved angel possession that Carver must hate both the boys.

 

I mean sure they started the Apocalpyse BUT that was all manufactured by the angels and they didn't even know what was going on. But this time, if it's revealed that Dean chose to kill Death and he knew that the Mark was keeping out the Darkness but chose Sam instead.....I'mma be pissed.

 

As it stands now, I'm going with Dean didn't know the spell was underway so nothing he did or didn't do would have stopped that happening.  Sam didn't know about the Darkness until it was too late

 

I'm putting this in the column of "Unintended Consequences on the Road of Good Intentions".