S10.E22: The Prisoner

[Goldmoon]

Sorry but what is the Hand of Ipecac?

[Demented Daisy]

The opposite of indefensible isn't innocent. It's at least partially situationally justifiable. Like, say, not giving the kid you don't know to be the only not-evil member of the family single-handedly responsible for the world's misery the benefit of the doubt after you've slaughtered his entire family. Dean wouldn't have done it - he let the ghoul kid go - but that doesn't mean there's no case to be made for it being the right call, given what he knew.

There's some space between indefensible and haven't done anything wrong.

 

If his actions are justifiable (even partially situationally), then he doesn't need redemption.

 

The show is setting up a redemption arc, IMO.  If he needs to be redeemed, then he did something wrong.

 

Sorry but what is the Hand of Ipecac?

 

It's the (joking) name given to the way Sam would expel demons from their hosts.

[bethy]

Sorry but what is the Hand of Ipecac?

In season 4 when Sam was exorcising demons with his mind, he'd hold out his hand and the demon would be vomited out of the host's mouth. It's an old Television Without Pity reference.

Eta: Or what Demented Daisy said.

Edited May 14, 2015 by bethy

[Julia]

If his actions are justifiable (even partially situationally), then he doesn't need redemption.

People don't need to be redeemed to the extent that they're wrong? That's kind of a unique moral order.

[Demented Daisy]

If Dean's actions are justifiable, then why are they wrong?

 

For clarification, I am talking only about what is happening in show.  

[PepperMonkey]

Oh no, the Louisiana Stynes are gone! Who cares! They were so gd boring. Every one of them went to the William Shatner School of Overacting.

 

I'm sorry the kid is dead; I, too, could have seen him as part of the gang next season, doing research for the boys, cooking dinner at the lair, dusting Dean's weapons and tchotchkes and doing the laundry. You could tell he was a totally unwilling particpant in his family's "shenanigans." But also, Dean didn't necessarily know that. True, normDean would have let the kid live, but yeah, we were supposed to go, "OH YEAH! MoC! It really is affecting him" even though we haven't been able to see this before now.
 

I said this last week, and I'll say it again: I really don't care if they kill off Cas. They have thoroughly ruined the character and turned him into a sometimes snarky wimp. I only want him to stay if he can become original recipe Cas again. And I don't even care about the flying, teleporting, bringing people back to life, et. al.  I want him to have his personality restored to its former glory. I don't even know this Cas.

 

So I'm hoping if there's another death next week, it's Rowena. Good to have bad Crowley back, but even if he's bad, he still has a soft spot for his adoptive brothers, the Winchesters. I'm pretty sure he still has his road trip pics of him and Dean, drinking their umbrella drinks and wearing their cowboy hats. I continue to believe he'll always choose Dean and Sam over pretty much anyone else.

 

I'll keep watching next season, but they need to come up with a new strategy and get the boys back to some good old fashioned hunting. Less brother on brother hate would be nice. More badass Cas and any Crowley (and his hamster, Olivette, of course), with no Rowena or Metatron anywhere in the vicinity. A girl can dream.

Edited May 14, 2015 by PepperMonkey

[catrox14]

I think they are "wrong" because of what it's doing to Dean. Yes it's awful that the kid is dead but honestly the more I think about it, the more I'm falling on the side of....how long before the kid realizes he doesn't want to be with the Winchesters? Then what does he do? Can they ever really trust him to not bring more Hell back on them.?

 

Dean is falling down a rabbit hole in the eyes of Sam and Cas.   And IMO his own eyes. How long before he does kill a completely innocent person?  He doesn't know how to get out of it.  And I feel like part of his speech to the kid before he shot him, was actually a lot about himself. I feel like if Dean could use that gun on himself and have it actually stick then he would. 

 

The Winchesters have been judge, jury and executioner for a long time now but I think it's the age of the kid this time is bothersome to most. 

Edited May 14, 2015 by catrox14

[Julia]

If Dean's actions are justifiable, then why are they wrong?

For clarification, I am talking only about what is happening in show.

I'm not familiar with whatever moral code exists only for the purposes of this show, or how it applies specifically to Dean. I was under the impression, from all the demons and angels, that the show followed a variant of the basic abrahamic cosmography.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Julia

[rue721]

Justifiable to whom?

 

Dean obviously thought his actions were justifiable at the time, he chose to do them. The geeky kid didn't think that Dean's actions were justifiable at that same time, he was pleading for his life. Dean was stronger, so he got his way.

 

Personally, I don't know where redemption would come in. Who would offer it, God? God is MIA. There's nobody to atone to within the world of this show, so there's no way to atone.

 

I think they are "wrong" because of what it's doing to Dean. He's falling down a rabbit hole in the eyes of Sam and Cas.  And IMO his own eyes.  He doesn't know how to get out of it.  And I feel like part of his speech to the kid before he shot him, was actually a lot about himself. I feel like if Dean could use that gun on himself and have it actually stick then he would. 

 

I don't think Dean is really Dean anymore. He's pretty clearly under the Mark's thrall. So I don't think he's having feelings like that. I think he's just feeling whatever bloodlust/rage/I-dunno that the Mark "feels."

[catrox14]

Justifiable to whom?

 

Dean obviously thought his actions were justifiable at the time, he chose to do them. The geeky kid didn't think that Dean's actions were justifiable at that same time, he was pleading for his life. Dean was stronger, so he got his way.

 

Personally, I don't know where redemption would come in. Who would offer it, God? God is MIA. There's nobody to atone to within the world of this show, so there's no way to atone.

 

 

I don't think Dean is really Dean anymore. He's pretty clearly under the Mark's thrall. So I don't think he's having feelings like that. I think he's just feeling whatever bloodlust/rage/I-dunno that the Mark "feels."

 

That's the rub.  We don't know if Dean is irrevocably changed now. For me, I guess that's what I'm thinking more than anything. Not a punishment that Dean would get but how far gone is he.   I think on some level it is Dean. He's playing him IMO as Dean just on super steroids.  I'd rather he be demon!Dean and just go back to sleeping around and singing bad karoake. LOL

[Hana Chan]

The MoC is a parasitic entity that eventually corrupts the host beyond repair. There will always be elements of Dean there, just as there were elements of pre-MoC Cain left. But Dean won't be the Dean that we all know. He'll eventually permanently become MoCDean and that's a totally different animal. The choices that he'll make are not the choices that pre-MoC Dean would ever had made and it will reach a point where you won't be able to separate Dean from the Mark. That's the great tragedy of this.

 

Dean's humanity is what is ultimately being destroyed. It'll be his body and his memories, but all the elements that made Dean endearing (even at his most frustrating) are being systematically stripped away. The moment that Dean totally abandons the things and people that he loved and gave him purpose is when the Mark has completely won. He's not there yet, but this episode showed how dangerously close he is to the point of no return.

[catrox14]

The MoC is a parasitic entity that eventually corrupts the host beyond repair. There will always be elements of Dean there, just as there were elements of pre-MoC Cain left. But Dean won't be the Dean that we all know. He'll eventually permanently become MoCDean and that's a totally different animal. The choices that he'll make are not the choices that pre-MoC Dean would ever had made and it will reach a point where you won't be able to separate Dean from the Mark. That's the great tragedy of this.

 

Dean's humanity is what is ultimately being destroyed. It'll be his body and his memories, but all the elements that made Dean endearing (even at his most frustrating) are being systematically stripped away. The moment that Dean totally abandons the things and people that he loved and gave him purpose is when the Mark has completely won. He's not there yet, but this episode showed how dangerously close he is to the point of no return.

 

Well, shit. I never thought about it that way.  I suppose that would be the same for demon!Dean? 

[arcadia63]

I got an idea how Dean can redeem himself when this is over. How about rescuing the BROTHER  who has been tormented in Hell for like 5 seasons !!! (yeah still bitter about that)

[catrox14]

To be fair, Adam isn't even Adam anymore, and I would imagine by now, he's pretty well dead. 

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

The MoC is a parasitic entity that eventually corrupts the host beyond repair. There will always be elements of Dean there, just as there were elements of pre-MoC Cain left. But Dean won't be the Dean that we all know. He'll eventually permanently become MoCDean and that's a totally different animal. The choices that he'll make are not the choices that pre-MoC Dean would ever had made and it will reach a point where you won't be able to separate Dean from the Mark. That's the great tragedy of this.

 

Dean's humanity is what is ultimately being destroyed. It'll be his body and his memories, but all the elements that made Dean endearing (even at his most frustrating) are being systematically stripped away. The moment that Dean totally abandons the things and people that he loved and gave him purpose is when the Mark has completely won. He's not there yet, but this episode showed how dangerously close he is to the point of no return.

You just made me cry. This is exactly how I see it.

[catrox14]

I was reading that interview with Robbie Thompson that I posted in the Writers thread...and he said we just sometimes write for where the character takes us....and all I could think was ....which fucking writer thought Dean Winchester should be Cain and then a demon and now a brutal killer. Like what the fuck in Dean's history made them think this was what Dean's character should progress or regress to.  Ugh...that kind of upset me. :(

[Demented Daisy]

I think they are "wrong" because of what it's doing to Dean. Yes it's awful that the kid is dead but honestly the more I think about it, the more I'm falling on the side of....how long before the kid realizes he doesn't want to be with the Winchesters? Then what does he do? Can they ever really trust him to not bring more Hell back on them.?

 

That's a dangerous precedent to set, IMO.  It means that the Winchesters can kill anyone or anything that might be a future danger to them.

 

 

I'm not familiar with whatever moral code exists only for the purposes of this show, or how it applies specifically to Dean. I was under the impression, from all the demons and angels, that the show followed a variant of the basic abrahamic cosmography.

 

 

The show follows its own moral code.  One in which killing is okay, even if it means killing a human who is being possessed by a demon, through no fault of their own.

 

 

Personally, I don't know where redemption would come in. Who would offer it, God? God is MIA. There's nobody to atone to within the world of this show, so there's no way to atone.

 

Redemption for Dean would work in the same way it worked for S5 Sam.  Self-sacrifice for the good of the many.  

 

When I speak of redemption, I mean in the eyes of the viewer.  Dean does not have to confess his sins directly to God in order to receive forgiveness from the audience.  We only have to see that he genuinely, in his heart and soul, understands what he did wrong and that he is sorry.

 

Once he is human again (because I'm sure it will happen), I think we'll see that.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[arcadia63]

To be fair, Adam isn't even Adam anymore, and I would imagine by now, he's pretty well dead. 

Well that's probably true, but that makes it all the worse. They left him there and let it happen.  Maybe he can come back as Luci or another big bad and they can help help him instead of the ole Dean saves Sam, Sam saves Dean dance.  I just don't want want them to leave it hanging, it's their brother for Pete's sake. :)

 

Topic

I remember Cyrus from when he played Kenny on Being Human

[Rammfan]

Does the mark give Dean some special insight into the souls of men? Because I don't see how Dean was supposed to know that the kid from the shadowy psycho family with the blood on him he found in his sanctuary standing over the gas-soaked remains of his life with the guy who killed Charlie was an innocent (although I have to agree with whoever above said he seemed to be living pretty comfortably in the charnel house).

I think without information I don't know how he could have gotten he didn't cross a moral event horizon there. Did I miss something?

And yeah, Dean was pretty harsh with Sam. I still think Dean still has a way to go to catch up with the crap Sam gave him all last season for doing pretty much what Sam's doing now, only without lying about it or letting someone else take the risks for him.

You. I like you.

 

Yeah, ITA with this post, and you gave me another reason to chill about Dean's harshness with Sam.

[Rammfan]

At that episode in Season 7 when the Leviathans went on a multi-state killing spree wearing the Winchesters' faces. It makes no sense whatsoever that every law enforcement officer in America doesn't recognize them on sight and (aside from Jodi Mills and Donna) try to take them into custody—or gun them down in a hail of bullets to be on the safe side.

 

I'm pretty sure all the writers have forgotten that plot point, just like they've forgotten that angels are supposed to be invulnerable to punches and physical harm and that even wimpy book nerd angel Metatron was easily able to overcome Dean when he was fully under the Mark of Cain's influence and had the First Blade in hand.

 

Pretty sure that once again the Winchesters are supposed to be dead, "their" decapitated bodies in the police station and the sheriff and his daughter lying about them for them. Pretty sure about that.

 

Also, *really* sure that Cas is very weak, what with only having a sliver of his grace back and his wings showing as all ragged and torn up. Also, *really* sure that Metatron was being super-powered by the Angel tablet until Cas broke it after Metatron wiped the floor with Dean.

[catrox14]

 

That's a dangerous precedent to set, IMO.  It means that the Winchesters can kill anyone or anything that might be a future danger to them.

 

I didn't say or imply this was something they could just willy nilly with anyone.

 

There was precedent set by the Stynes when they opened the first salvo on Charlie and Dean.  Once the LoL came under attack I do think Dean and Sam had the right to defend themselves. And just because the kid was all 'OH I'm not like them" even though we believe it's true, like others have pointed out, Dean doesn't know that.  He sees his home under attack by the people that killed Charlie and tried to kill him.

 

They would have to do something about that kid one way or the other, and yes in the interest of self preservation or even self-defense because the kid could have been lying or he could have changed his mind once he realized every one in his family was dead.

Edited May 14, 2015 by catrox14

[Rammfan]

Then we don't have anything to worry about, do we?  He's just being Dean, doing what Dean has always done, which is hunt evil.  There was a chance the kid would someday turn evil, if he hadn't already, so Dean did what Dean had to do.  

 

Move along, nothing to see here, is that what you're saying?

 

Oh, no. I think it's pretty clear that Dean's super compromised by the mark. But in regards to *this* kid from *this* family? Yeah, pretty much.

[catrox14]

 

Well that's probably true, but that makes it all the worse. They left him there and let it happen.  Maybe he can come back as Luci or another big bad and they can help help him instead of the ole Dean saves Sam, Sam saves Dean dance.  I just don't want want them to leave it hanging, it's their brother for Pete's sake. :)

 

Yes Adam is their brother but he pretty much rejected them to take Zach's false offer to be with his Mom again. ( I miss Zachariah) .

 

So other than just family loyalty, is there a truly compelling reason to get him? 

[Omegamom]

For those saying they want to see demon!Dean teleporting--we didn't *see* it, but it was strongly implied that he teleported out of the bar in Reichenbach. Sam comes stumbling out of the bar in a gout of tear gas, but Dean is already in the far corner of the parking lot where there is no door when Sam comes out and Cole shows up. Also, Dean is accompanied by a demon growl.

Another thing--Cain in full MoC mode in The Executioner's Song handled Cas like he was a wimpy kid, tossing him around with a wave of his hand. So, yeah, Dean could beat Cas if he's well on the way to MoC-Dom.

Did anyone notice that the music from the fight in TES was also playing when Dean was in full MoC mode?

The directors have been very (too?) subtle about it, but Dean has been growing colder and colder when killing in the past few episodes, almost nonchalant, and the lighting on him since TES has been shadowing his eye sockets more and more. Not full-blown demon, but definitely, IMO, more and more not!Dean.

[Rammfan]

Well that's probably true, but that makes it all the worse. They left him there and let it happen.  Maybe he can come back as Luci or another big bad and they can help help him instead of the ole Dean saves Sam, Sam saves Dean dance.  I just don't want want them to leave it hanging, it's their brother for Pete's sake. :)

 

Topic

I remember Cyrus from when he played Kenny on Being Human

Adam was burned up. Michael could, and did, restore his body to be his vessel, but he had no reason to restore *Adam*. When Adam's body burned up and he died, Adam's soul went to heaven. The only thing that is down there in Luci's cage is the vessel that looks like Adam and contains only Michael, like Cas' vessel looks like Jimmy but now contains only Cas. That's my interpretation and I'm sticking to it :D

[rue721]

When I speak of redemption, I mean in the eyes of the viewer.  Dean does not have to confess his sins directly to God in order to receive forgiveness from the audience.  We only have to see that he genuinely, in his heart and soul, understands what he did wrong and that he is sorry.

 

Can't speak for viewers as a whole, but for me, regret isn't enough. Or, it's not that it's not *enough,* but it's not what matters to me. I assume that any human being who knows that he slaughtered other human beings is going to feel bad and regret and think about where he went wrong, that seems like baseline "humanity" to me.

 

What I care more about is what the intention/goal of the act was in the first place. Not to continually bring it up, but I've been rewatching Smallville recently, and yet again, even though I *know* he does horrible things -- arguably worse than Dean even now -- I just can't stop being sympathetic to Lex Luthor. And the reason for that (aside from just liking/enjoying him!) is that he seems to *genuinely* believe that what he's doing is for the good of mankind, and if mankind requires pain/death/sacrifice/etc, then he has "no choice" but to suffer (or cause!) that pain/death/sacrifice. I believe in his ideals/hope even though his methods are appalling.

 

Dean doesn't have ideals or hope like that, that I can get behind. Way back in the day, he did! Sam and Dean were very decent people. But then it sort of got boiled down to just "save Sam," and I still don't really understand whatever Hell political intrigue caused the whole Crowley/Dean v. Abaddon team-up.

 

I can ultimately forgive Dean (or any character) doing horrible things for "the right reasons," but tbh I don't think he had Sam possessed or took on the Mark for "the right reasons," I think he did that out of panic and masochism respectively. (Which I can understand/forgive, but can't exactly *admire* or consider heroic). And I don't think that he killed the Stynes in the bunker for "the right reasons," either, I think he killed them out of contempt and convenience

 

YMMV, obviously everyone is going to have an individual take on what is/isn't "the right reasons" and about forgiveness. But that's where I'm coming from, anyway, and why I don't really see redemption as a possibility. Even if in this case, the audience is standing in for God in who Dean has to atone to or who can grant his redemption.

 

So other than just family loyalty, is there a truly compelling reason to get him? 

 

Human decency? Empathy? Compassion?

 

But I like Rammfan's fanwank and will be sticking with it, too :)

[catrox14]

 

Did anyone notice that the music from the fight in TES was also playing when Dean was in full MoC mode?

Yes, I mentioned that upthread but figured no one heard it LOL.

[Bruinsfan]

To be fair, Adam isn't even Adam anymore, and I would imagine by now, he's pretty well dead. 

We don't really know what state Adam is in - we can't judge by what Sam experienced while being tormented by Lucifer. Adam was possessed by Michael when they fell into the cage, and in his brief appearances Michael hasn't seemed petulant or needlessly cruel, just totally committed to enacting his father's plan as he understood it regardless of collateral damage. Michael is also one of perhaps three beings in all Creation that might actually be able to keep Adam safe and unharmed by whatever temper tantrum Lucifer threw once Death took away his favorite chew toy.

[DittyDotDot]

Gawd, I miss the days when they drove around the country and shot ghosts in the face with rock salt. IMO, this episode was it's downright predictably boring and the monologuing...sheesh! I found the whole episode tensionless and rather uninspiring--although there were a couple camera frame ups that I did find somewhat interesting.

 

Anyway, the only thing I found interesting in this episode was when they were going through all Dean's musical fake ID's and I did get a chuckle out of Dean trying to decide what registration to use.  It just feels like they've been spinning their wheels for most of the season and this was just more of the same, at least Sam and Dean got their bickering quota in for the episode. ::shrugs::

 

Seriously disappointed the bunker didn't go up in flames though.

Edited May 14, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Human decency? Empathy? Compassion?

 

But I like Rammfan's fanwank and will be sticking with it, too :)

 

You say that like Dean and Sam never showed Adam compassion. Dean did, in fact, try to save Adam twice even as Adam didn't give a shit about them, once int he green room and then again with Death who told Dean he could only save one brother so of course he was going to pick Sam.

 

At this point, Adam is long gone and I personally don't want to see him back. So I don't see him being a factor in the finale. 

Edited May 14, 2015 by catrox14

[catrox14]

I wanted to mention in that scene with Cas and Dean at the end. There was moment when Cas was telling Dean that he would be there at the end after everyone else was long gone...and there was just flicker of something in Dean's eyes that I thought, yes! Cas got through to him....and then it went away.

 

That was some of most amazing Ackting. So subtle and so powerful

[Gudzilla]

I'd like to point out that if Dean doesn't kill FrankenKid then that kid would possibly help them out, and become a semi regular team member, and suffer at the hands of others for knowing the Winchesters, until he eventually gets killed in a much more horrific way. So Dean saved us all some time. ;)

[Commando Cody]

I kind of looking at offing the kid as Dean doing him a favor.  I wouldn't say he was totally innocent either.  He knew his family was screwed up, but chose ignore it until his father forced him to participate.  That probably messed him up royally.  If dean hadn't killed him, he probably would have ended up in therapy for the rest of his life - not really being able to confess to the therapist exactly what his family did.  Not only that, other living relatives may come looking for him and he would have ended up in the family business anyway.  The kid was a liability, although maybe Dean could have used the kid to smoke a few relatives out.  

 

I thought for a moment that maybe the kid would be a minor character book worm, helping to discover new information, but I think the writers needed a way to show where Dean's mental state is.  I really thought Cas was going to be dead.  

 

I can't believe how much I love cold-hearted, badass Dean.  That view of him standing there in front of the invaders was so freaking awesome.

 

Do Sam and Dean not lock the door to the lair anymore.  It seems like anyone can stroll in there.  Why the hell did they have to find the extra special key if  nobody ever needs it? 

Edited May 14, 2015 by CommanderCody

[Aeryn13]

For me redemption is about doing stuff in atonement. Like, if you killed people before, no matter the reasons, you try to save others now etc. Basically, you course-correct what you did wrong before. For that to happen, you would naturally feel regret for the previous acts. If redemption was based on the "original sin" being done for the right reason, IMO that negates the very concept of redemption. Because 99,9 % of all people would have no shot at it and wouldn`t even need to try. Because that one (or more) acts done for wrong reasons would damn them forever, no matter what they did to make up for it. So why not stay evil in the first place then?

 

That`s why I think redemption is readily possible for Dean. The writers just have to care enough about him to give him some. It`s a gambit making a protagonist too dark. 

Edited May 15, 2015 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

All excellent discussion here.

 

Me though, I'm going to bypass that for just a moment to dip into the shallow end of the pool. I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but Sam and Dean can come chop firewood for me any time. I'll provide hot chocolate or something and just watch from the porch.

 

Okay back to the much more thoughtful discussion now...

 

What I care more about is what the intention/goal of the act was in the first place. Not to continually bring it up, but I've been rewatching Smallville recently, and yet again, even though I *know* he does horrible things -- arguably worse than Dean even now -- I just can't stop being sympathetic to Lex Luthor. And the reason for that (aside from just liking/enjoying him!) is that he seems to *genuinely* believe that what he's doing is for the good of mankind, and if mankind requires pain/death/sacrifice/etc, then he has "no choice" but to suffer (or cause!) that pain/death/sacrifice. I believe in his ideals/hope even though his methods are appalling.

[snip]

I can ultimately forgive Dean (or any character) doing horrible things for "the right reasons," but tbh I don't think he had Sam possessed or took on the Mark for "the right reasons," I think he did that out of panic and masochism respectively. (Which I can understand/forgive, but can't exactly *admire* or consider heroic). And I don't think that he killed the Stynes in the bunker for "the right reasons," either, I think he killed them out of contempt and convenience

 

I can see this way of looking at it, but I tend to look at it a little differently. Genuinely believing in a cause and even ones that are thought to be for the good of all mankind is not always enough for me to be more sympathetic. It can lead to awful things like the crusades or the Spanish inquisition or ethnic cleansing, etc. Just nope, not generally good enough for me. I tend to give more of a pass to people whose experiences shaped them. Not that experiences are always an excuse either, but I tend to sympathize with those who have tried to do the right thing before and gotten really burned because of it. But then again, one of my favorite characters is Carl Grimes, and not too long ago he blew away a kid in a very similar circumstance to Dean, but he had no excuse of a mark of Cain. Despite that, somehow I could still sympathize with him in a way, because he'd had enough terrible experiences from being trusting of people and lost quite a few people that he was close with because of it (not to mention having to escape from "friendly" cannibals.) So if I can forgive Carl - little shit that he is - I can easily forgive Dean.

[catrox14]

I'm sorry. I love the Walking Dead but if you are going to compare Corrrral to Dean...I'm tempted to flag...(JUST KIDDING).

 

I do, however, want Rick Grimes and Dean Winchester on my team during the ZA.

[rue721]

Genuinely believing in a cause and even ones that are thought to be for the good of all mankind is not always enough for me to be more sympathetic. It can lead to awful things like the crusades or the Spanish inquisition or ethnic cleansing, etc. Just nope, not generally good enough for me. I tend to give more of a pass to people whose experiences shaped them. Not that experiences are always an excuse either, but I tend to sympathize with those who have tried to do the right thing before and gotten really burned because of it. But then again, one of my favorite characters is Carl Grimes, and not too long ago he blew away a kid in a very similar circumstance to Dean, but he had no excuse of a mark of Cain. Despite that, somehow I could still sympathize with him in a way, because he'd had enough terrible experiences from being trusting of people and lost quite a few people that he was close with because of it (not to mention having to escape from "friendly" cannibals.) So if I can forgive Carl - little shit that he is - I can easily forgive Dean.

 

Well sure, the end doesn't *always* justify the means. But I cut someone working toward a genuinely altruistic goal more slack than someone who's working in his own self-interest or for a goal that's unsympathetic. Doing something that goes too far in service of an altruistic goal is a lapse in judgment but isn't necessarily a lapse of character. Doing something that goes too far just because you're selfish or want something repulsive makes me think that you're rotten to the core, though -- because both your ends and your means are shitty.

 

I don't really know what you mean about people whose experiences have shaped them? Hasn't everyone's experiences shaped them?

 

For me redemption is about doing stuff in atonement. Like, if you killed people before, no matter the reasons, you try to save others now etc. Basically, you course-correct what you did wrong before. For that to happen, you would naturally feel regret for the previous acts. If redemption was based on the "original sin" being done for the right reason, IMO that negates the very concept of redemption. Because 99,9 % of all people would have no shot at it and wouldn`t even need to try. Because that one (or more) acts done for wrong reasons would damn them forever, no matter what they did to make up for it. So why not stay evil in the first place then?

 

Personally, I'm not sure that redemption *is* possible, for anyone. Once something's done, it's done. Can't change the past.

 

The reason not to do evil things, whether you have before or not, is because your conscious/compassion stops you. If you don't have a conscious or compassion, I guess you'll just keep doing evil things. I don't see what redemption has to do with that at all.

 

W/r/t Dean's hypothetical future redemption:  the show will eventually move on and so will I. But there's no practical way they can have him atone in the sense of deciding to do the opposite of what he's doing now, because he can't not kill, killing is his job/life.

 

I guess the show is trying to mix things up by having it be that they have to save Dean's soul now instead of his life. But right now it's not gelling for me. TBH, I think they've been too abstract. I don't feel that I understand what the threat to his soul really is (that Dean will become a demon again? But he's already been one once, so that seems like a kind of blah threat?). Plus, at this point, I'm sick of the Winchesters spending all their time/energy trying to save one another, the rest of the world be damned, and am ready for them to start worrying about everyone else for a change. This has been going on since S8 and the Trials/Gates of Hell thing, and it just makes them unlikeable to me because I feel like they're being selfish and other people are losing their lives for it. ("Other people" including Charlie).

[AwesomO4000]

I'm sorry. I love the Walking Dead but if you are going to compare Corrrral to Dean...I'm tempted to flag...(JUST KIDDING).

 

I know you are teasing, but I do want to clarify. I wasn't comparing Dean to Carl character-wise. I was saying that Dean and Carl both killed someone where the situation was very similar in my opinion. They both killed teens who were at first a threat but who wanted to "surrender," Both shot the teens, and in both cases the reasoning had to do with future harm the kid might do. And considering that Carl is a little shit, * and I forgave him for shooting the kid (partially because he's so messed up do to circumstances he didn't choose **), I certainly can forgive Dean in this situation.

 

* but I like that about him, because I think he's a fascinating character.

 

** though now that I think about it rue721, part of the reason Carl shot the kid was because in his twisted logic he thought that what he was doing was best for the group as a whole... eliminating a potential threat. So hmm, guess there is a little of your criteria here... though Carl's logic wouldn't make any sense in the "normal" world, but only makes sense based on Carl's rather awful experiences in his young life where sometimes giving someone the benefit of the doubt means one of your loved ones might get killed later when that person you gave the benefit of the doubt turns out to be awful. Carol, another interesting character from the show, also does a bit of killing for the "good of the group," but her decisions tend to be based more on that logic and maybe less on her life experiences messing her up (even though she too has some stories in that area) than Carl's.

 

I do, however, want Rick Grimes and Dean Winchester on my team during the ZA.

 

Heh, though based on the last finale, it's a little bit scary and concerning that presently of two of them Carl appears to be the saner one.

 

 

I don't really know what you mean about people whose experiences have shaped them? Hasn't everyone's experiences shaped them?

 

Carl was pretty much my example. Under usual circumstances, Carl shooting that other kid would be nothing be horrible. But taking into account what Carl has been through in his young life (including having to shoot his own mother so she wouldn't become a zombie and killing actual zombies himself on a regular basis), and what he's seen (people he loved dying because they trusted the wrong people), and that he now has a baby sister that he is partially responsible for protecting (when they travel on the road, Carl is often the one to carry his baby sister and so is often in charge of her safety), his rather cold decision to shoot the kid because the kid maybe might betray and kill someone in their group later is perhaps a little more understandable. So that's what I meant by experiences shaping people's logic.

[Hana Chan]

The fact that the young Steyne kid was practically a Sam substitute is what makes his death particularly horrifying. He was raised in a totally fucked up situation (as Sam was), is well aware of just how fucked up a situation it was (as Sam was), loved his family but wanted out in the worst way (as Sam did), and went along with things because he had no other options until he could get away (and in the Styne kid's case, going along for his own protection).

 

If Dean was actually paying attention to the kid before he killed him, that makes it worse because that line about blood always telling and that he'd end up bad no matter what... that was all about Sam in the end. Dean killing Cyrus proved to me that with the right motivation and circumstance that he would be fully capable and willing to kill Sam. This is a shocking turnaround from the days when as angry as Dean might have been with Sam, having Sam die would always be the deal breaker.

[bethy]

The fact that the young Steyne kid was practically a Sam substitute is what makes his death particularly horrifying. He was raised in a totally fucked up situation (as Sam was), is well aware of just how fucked up a situation it was (as Sam was), loved his family but wanted out in the worst way (as Sam did), and went along with things because he had no other options until he could get away (and in the Styne kid's case, going along for his own protection).

 

If Dean was actually paying attention to the kid before he killed him, that makes it worse because that line about blood always telling and that he'd end up bad no matter what... that was all about Sam in the end. Dean killing Cyrus proved to me that with the right motivation and circumstance that he would be fully capable and willing to kill Sam. This is a shocking turnaround from the days when as angry as Dean might have been with Sam, having Sam die would always be the deal breaker.

 

Wow. And yikes. I think this has been humming under the surface for me since Wednesday. Dean was so cold - and frankly, cruel - to Sam about Charlie at the beginning of the episode and that line about blood always telling made me think he was talking about Sam, too. But I hadn't put it together quite this way. Thanks for the nightmares. :)

[Aeryn13]

 

If Dean was actually paying attention to the kid before he killed him, that makes it worse because that line about blood always telling and that he'd end up bad no matter what... that was all about Sam in the end.

 

I don`t think so. Dean saw the kid for what, 30 seconds? He knew diddly squat about him and his history with the family. All he saw was that he was there on the raid, too. I`m not saying I wanted that kill to happen but there was no way - unless Dean saw the episode - that he could make the Sam connection. How? Does he have mind-reading abilities? Insta-knowledge of someone`s past? Is every teenager Sam now? As for what the Styne kid said, well, even if he was evil, that would have been a good way to try and get out of it. Anyone with half a brain would try that appeal. 

 

Dean was using the same logic Cain used in killing all his descendants. Was that about Sam too? Because I didn`t think so for a second. What Dean said refered to the Styne bloodline and he was talking about HIMSELF.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Aeryn13

[Phebemarie]

Couldn't Dean's comment about blood have been directed at himself, too?  By this time, I'm sure that he feels the whole Winchester/Campbell line is cursed, not just Sam.  

 

Yep, what Aeryn said.  :)

Edited May 15, 2015 by Phebemarie

[SueB]

I though the was talking about himself. The death of the Sam substitute could have been foreshadowing.

[bethy]

I don`t think so. Dean saw the kid for what, 30 seconds? He knew diddly squat about him and his history with the family. All he saw was that he was there on the raid, too. I`m not saying I wanted that kill to happen but there was no way - unless Dean saw the episode - that he could make the Sam connection. How? Does he have mind-reading abilities? Insta-knowledge of someone`s past? Is every teenager Sam now? As for what the Styne kid said, well, even if he was evil, that would have been a good way to try and get out of it. Anyone with half a brain would try that appeal. 

 

Dean was using the same logic Cain used in killing all his descendants. Was that about Sam too? Because I didn`t think so for a second. What Dean said refered to the Styne bloodline and he was talking about HIMSELF.

 

I don't think Dean saw the Sam connection, but I think we as the audience could see it to an extent. But I also did think Dean was referring to himself. 

 

I also wondered if the "blood will tell" might reference Sam's drinking of blood all those years ago. And (I think?) Sam's referred to himself as having tainted blood in the past. I don't know that was what Dean was thinking necessarily when he said it - I think for Dean in that moment it was more about family/blood - but it sure did make me thing about it.

[catrox14]

I think Dean was talking about himself and Sam. And it's a stupid way to foreshadow their deaths. Taking the rest of my thoughts to the spoiler thread. 

Edited May 15, 2015 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

 

I don't know that was what Dean was thinking necessarily when he said it

 

I don`t think so at all. He was clearly talking about himself there IMO. I mean what he basically said was "the evil within always wins". At a time when he can feel himself succumbing to the evil within from the Mark. To me, Sam`s demon blood wasn`t even a blip on the radar screen in that moment. Which is why I don`t get the "that makes Dean even more horrible because obviously he envisions killing Sam" sentiment coming from it. I guess the writers did too good a job completely demonizing the character if everything about him must have the most negative connotations right now.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

I don`t think so at all. He was clearly talking about himself there IMO. I mean what he basically said was "the evil within always wins". At a time when he can feel himself succumbing to the evil within from the Mark. To me, Sam`s demon blood wasn`t even a blip on the radar screen in that moment. Which is why I don`t get the "that makes Dean even more horrible because obviously he envisions killing Sam" sentiment coming from it. I guess the writers did too good a job completely demonizing the character if everything about him must have the most negative connotations right now.

 

This is what is really upsetting to me.  They had Sam drink demon blood and be lead down the garden path and they had him kill a nurse but it was because he believed he was saving the world.  With Dean, there is no garden path. There is no noble cause.

 

I go back to those damn comments from the Nepotism Duo about how Dean's DNA was essentially a killer. That was never the case until they made it so.  And now they've destroyed a hero, have made the other one completely bereft because he has no one else...l bet dollars to donuts that something comes out about how Sam did have a life until Dean ruined it by dragging him back into the family in s1?

[bethy]

Which is why I don`t get the "that makes Dean even more horrible because obviously he envisions killing Sam" sentiment coming from it.

 

 

That's certainly not the sentiment I meant to imply at all. I think Dean is beyond screwed up right now and if Sam occurred to him at all in that moment, I don't think it makes him more horrible in any way. I just think that right now Dean may believe they're both beyond saving. Do I know for sure that he thinks that? Absolutely not. But I do think it's possible there are a variety of interpretations for Dean's little speech there.

 

We can agree to disagree. :)

Edited May 15, 2015 by bethy

[Aeryn13]

 

I go back to those damn comments from the Nepotism Duo about how Dean's DNA was essentially a killer. That was never the case until they made it so.

 

Oh, I`m sure they think Dean with the Mark is the quintessential Dean, a sociopathic killer who never had a good bone in his body and was born evil. 

 

That he isn`t as protected or whitewashed in his dark arc, that I imagined beforehand, unrelated to that. 

[catrox14]

 

That's certainly not the sentiment I meant to imply at all. I think Dean is beyond screwed up right now and if Sam occurred to him at all in that moment, I don't think it makes him more horrible in any way. I just think that right now Dean may believe they're both beyond saving. Do I know for sure that he thinks that? Absolutely not. But I do think it's possible there are a variety of interpretations for Dean's little speech there.

 

It might be that Dean thinks everyone is tainted in some way especially if he's absorbed Cain's mission of culling his "poison issue" from the earth. 

 

Cyrus could have been the avatar for both Dean and Sam really.  He was Sam in school, being bullied a bit, but he was Dean when he was pressed into service of the family by having a blade shoved into his hand and killing his first monster. Of course it's a stupid avatar because John never put a knife in their hands to kill humans to harvest the body parts.  He taught them to hunt to survive monsters and demons.