S03.E22: This Is Your Sword

[Velocity23]

I think the text on the piece of paper said

I, Ray Palmer as CEO of Palmer Technologies of Starling City, hereby transfer ownership of Palmer Technologies to Vice-President Felicity Smoak.

 

Edited May 7, 2015 by Velocity23

[Velocity23]

double post.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Velocity23

[Ariah]

Felicity can still rename the company to Queen Inc., not because she's married to Oliver and not in Oliver's name, but to honour Moira (whom she was not fond of, but then again...)

 

Or she can just give it to Oliver. I guess there are some taxes to be paid on such large equity transfers, but... Who cares.

[apinknightmare]

Anyone who gives Oliver Queen a company to run is an idiot, haha.

[looptab]

I had a really hard time understanding characters' motivations throughout the episode.

 

Dig, I could understand if you got mad after finding out Oliver wasn't brainwashed, but at the beginning it just seemed out of proportion. I'm just not really fond of this choice. As others have said, if you have to be mad, be mad that he didn't clue you in on the plan.

 

I think sometimes they just invert the dialogues, and have some character say something meant to be said by someone else. It's the only way I can nderstand Laurel's conviction in the cell.

 

Maseo, RIP. I really liked you and hoped the whole season we'd get to keep you. The death scene was heartbreaking.

 

Colton Haynes, keep the scruff. Please and thank you. (Miss you Roy).

 

Looking forward to more Thea. I didn't mind that Roy left her like that, of all the things written for plot, this actually has a good purpose, so I'm willing to take it as it is.

 

Agreed that Felicity's line about Oliver marrying Nyssa was out of place, and I was thinking "Why on Earth would they have her say that?"

 

The Canary Cry makes me laugh, and I really wish KC avoided all that heavy breathing/chest-lifting/whatever. It looks really awkward, she could tone it down a little.

 

Great work from all the stunt doubles. We had at least a clear shot of each and everyone of their faces!

[Carrie Ann]

I think the transfer of ownership is...ridiculous. Felicity is 26 years old. She knows nothing about running a company, and as much as I love her and think she's brilliant and want her to have all of her heart's desires, this is stupid. But if she owns it (hopefully just a portion, just the Starling-based tech stuff or whatever's left of QC), then I hope she appoints someone else CEO (NOT Oliver) and stays on as VP of whatever she might wish.

 

But...it's a publicly-traded company, right? Or it was, when it was QC? What is Ray really transferring to her? His shares of the stock? Or did he buy it all out and turn it into a private company?

Edited May 7, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[apinknightmare]

Agreed that Felicity's line about Oliver marrying Nyssa was out of place, and I was thinking "Why on Earth would they have her say that?"

 

I thought it was to show that she was thinking about the "little things" because she absolutely trusted that Oliver would get them out of there and was just biding her time not even worrying about it. 

I think the transfer of ownership is...ridiculous. Felicity is 26 years old. She knows nothing about running a company, and as much as I love her and think she's brilliant and want her to have all of her heart's desires, this is stupid. But if she owns it (hopefully just a portion, just the Starling-based tech stuff or whatever's left of QC), then I hope she appoints someone else CEO (NOT Oliver) and stays on as VP of whatever she might wish.

 

But...it's a publicly-traded company, right? Or it was, when it was QC? What is Ray really transferring to her? His shares of the stock? Or did he buy it all out and turn it into a private company?

 

I think it would help if we knew why he transferred it to her. Did the company have an uptick in performance after something she did, or was it some weird rich man thank you for helping him with the suit and that's the only reason he bought the company so he doesn't need/want it anymore? They really should've explained that in this ep. Hopefully when he tells her that he did it, he'll explain why. 

 

It was publicly traded, and he just signed it over to her like it was a Taco Bell franchise, haha. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

I hope we get some type of explanation about the transfer of ownership. I thought at most he would be leaving her in charge of the SC branch, but he really did give her the company. 

 

In the light of day the drugging still didn't brother me. I can make sense out of it. It's the trusting of Malcolm over his Team that I don't understand. Letting Malcolm in on the plan is one thing, because he does have knowledge that would be useful, but to ONLY tell him and let his Team struggle. That annoys me so much. I can't help but feel it undid some of the growth Oliver has had throughout this season and undermined how far Team Arrow has come. And the only reason I can think of is DRAMA DRAMA DRAMA. Diggle was already annoyed with Oliver and his man pain and this is just the icing.

 

If Malcolm does stick around next season, I need Felicity to always remind him he is scum and Malcolm to protect her when he needs too. I kinda loved that aspect. I wonder if Oliver asked him to keep an eye on them.

 

I really really hate the damage they are doing to Team Arrow. I can see where Oliver is coming from: This is the Biggest Bad To Ever Bad and so I have to be bold and make the tough choices and risk everything and I was just trying to save my sister, my love, my brother, my city. I get that. I can really see where Team Arrow is coming from. Oliver takes it all on himself and he still isn't listening and if he had just let them in they could have helped and maybe avoided all this altogether. The lack of communication is painful. It doesn't jive with the Team Arrow we saw at the end of S2, the beginning of S3 (The Calm really looks better in hindsight now - minus the end). Whole thing is contrived.

 

Re: "I can't believe he is marrying her." I fell off a cliff once and was covered in blood and totally banged up and I spent like an hour shaking and talking about what to eat for dinner while I was being looked over. I get not focusing on the big problems at the moment. Also they needed someone to mention and Felicity is the logical choice given her relationship to Oliver and her tendency to talk before thinking. And honestly, if she wasn't the 'love interest' it would just be a Felicity-thing and I don't think people would mind it but because she has that role suddenly its not focusing on the big picture.

Edited May 7, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Primetimer]

Almost everyone travels to Nanda Parbat for a last-ditch attempt to foil Ra's's plans. It doesn't go perfectly.

Read the story

[looptab]

You're right, 10Eleven12. She was the one having to comment about it (although I loved Malcolm's expression after the reveal,ahah), it would have been strager coming from someone else. I guess what you said about her being the love interest putting her at a disadvantage in instances like this one it's also very true.

 

I'm also ok with apinknightmare's interpretation that she could focus on that because Oliver finding a way to save them=no brainer, ahah.

 

On the business side of things, yes, it is stupid that Ray just gave her the company, but that's Tv business for me. Afterall, Isabel did whoknowswhat last year when Oliver signed it off to her that didn't make much sense either. It doesn't bother me that much.

Plus, that might have been the best Ray/Felicity scene ever. It really gave me a sense of the "it's awkward, but I care a lot about you so I'm here if you need me".

[tv echo]

Regarding Felicity being given ownership of PT - It's the way this show works... Oliver was head of QC last season, Thea was running Verdant as an 18-year-old, and Laurel became the Acting D.A. even though she was the newbie in the D.A.'s Office.

[apinknightmare]

In the light of day the drugging still didn't brother me. I can make sense out of it. It's the trusting of Malcolm over his Team that I don't understand. Letting Malcolm in on the plan is one thing, because he does have knowledge that would be useful, but to ONLY tell him and let his Team struggle. 

 

I think it makes sense that he didn't tell them - the show set the foundation for it in 3x19 with the plan with Roy. They kept Oliver in the dark about the plan because they knew he couldn't bear the thought of it going wrong and would take matters into his own hands and ruin everything. 

 

Oliver told Malcolm they thought his ascension would take months. Oliver doesn't have the means to communicate with the team via traditional channels, and Malcolm knows NP better than any of them do, so it was easier for him to sneak in and out to communicate. Plus, if he got caught, I doubt Oliver would worry too much about Malcolm handling himself if he was captured. If it was Digg or Felicity, they'd kill them. Oliver wouldn't want that. 

 

The issue I have with this way of telling the story is they had to make everyone lose faith in Oliver really quickly to keep them from trying to get him back and ruining the plan, so it didn't make sense on several character levels, especially with the constant flip flopping over whether or not they'd lost him forever, but...eh. IDK.

 

Same thing with the drugging. With someone as unpredictable as Ra's (unpredictable to Oliver, at least), it's better to just keep everyone in the dark and adjust his plans accordingly, try to make things work on the fly without having to notify anyone every time a plan changes. 

[Starfish35]

My problem with that line is that it exists in the context of the episode as a whole, wherein earlier Felicity is stubbornly refusing to consider the massive threat to Starling City or do anything to help save it, until Tatsu makes it about saving Oliver.

Besides, I don't think the line was needed at all. EBR did a great job conveying Felicity's shock and pain during that closeup after Oliver's announcement. It didn't need to be commented on after that.

[nksarmi]

What was the point of 3x19? Wasn't that about Oliver allowing people to help him? He came up with this STUPID plan to trust Malcolm over EVERYONE ELSE that same night. WTF

THIS!!!!  This is what I keep going back to - right after Felicity tells him that he needs to let people help him, he choices to trust Malcolm over his TEAM.

[kismet]

I liked Ray in this episode but ATOM is just really out of place on Arrow.  So please, fly away home to somewhere else Ray. Or shrink away...whichever

Agree for once Ray tonally fit in. I actually didn't mind his flying action scene. At least it made sense in the plot or as much sense as blowing up a plane via flying through it. But honestly beyond that, I can not think of many action sequences in future episodes that he would fit in. He's gonna need the spinoff soon if they don't have many aerial stunts coming. So glad they took off the tin can for the jail cell, that would have looked stupid.

Something from the Nanda Parbat SkyMall catalogue. Barring that, couples massage. They'd never buy one for themselves.

Sadly, the SkyMall magazine is no more. Perhaps Ras can bring it back! :( Just returned from a flight & was so disappointed. I always look forward to seeing what was inside.

[apinknightmare]

THIS!!!!  This is what I keep going back to - right after Felicity tells him that he needs to let people help him, he choices to trust Malcolm over his TEAM.

 

You can look at that ep from two different angles. Because yes, they helped him, but they kept him in the dark about it and asked him to trust them and just hold his horses on trying to break Roy out because they knew Oliver's desire to get to Roy to make sure nothing went wrong would ruin their plan. What's happening here is a higher stakes version of that, only opposite. Oliver is keeping them in the dark because he knows that their desire to get Oliver out to make sure nothing went wrong would ruin his plan. 

 

Ra's CANNOT KNOW, cannot have ONE INKLING that they're in cahoots. HE WOULD KILL THEM ALL. He's working with Malcolm because he doesn't give a shit if Ra's kills Malcolm and himself if things go wrong. Tatsu's just lucky she murdered Maseo because Oliver brought them all into a trap in Nanda Parbat. Oliver himself is not sure of things - he's got to be able to think on his feet and can't be informing them of every single change. He asked them to trust him. It HAS to be enough, just like it was enough for Oliver when Felicity said that he needed to let people help him without giving him any more information than that. 

[Chaser]

My problem with that line is that it exists in the context of the episode as a whole, wherein earlier Felicity is stubbornly refusing to consider the massive threat to Starling City or do anything to help save it, until Tatsu makes it about saving Oliver.

Besides, I don't think the line was needed at all. EBR did a great job conveying Felicity's shock and pain during that closeup after Oliver's announcement. It didn't need to be commented on after that.

The information came from Malcolm though. A Lying Liar Who Lies. And he says that he is working with Oliver. That is a lot to take in after the past few weeks she has had. His proof? A woman they had not meet nor heard of. Its a lot to take in. I also understand her not wanting to go back there.

 

I think the conversation with Tatsu did two things for Felicity. It did motivate her to 'fight' for Oliver, but I think having Tatsu open up to her about Oliver helped her trust the story.

 

I don't really get anyones motivates in this episode though. I feel like the episode had a bunch of different writers who just didn't talk to each other so we got contradictions everywhere.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but their whole plan hinged on Felicity coming. Why wasn't that explained at all? Did they have a back-up if she didn't show? Did they come up with this on the plane? 

 

 

THIS!!!!  This is what I keep going back to - right after Felicity tells him that he needs to let people help him, he choices to trust Malcolm over his TEAM.

That is so hard for me to fanwank. I keep reading these arguments but this is basically what it comes down too. Ugh

 

I have three issues who this season: Ra's / Malcolm / Palmer. The common thread: Everyone acts like an idiot around them.

[Ang]

Oh, poor jbuffyangel and followers! Not only was there no Olicity wedding, the show's still planting Lauriver seeds. I'm calling it now, we'll see BC/GA and some dumb "you're the only one who always believed in me" scene in season 5. Maybe 7 if it's still going strong and they want to draw it out a bit.

This was much more watchable than I anticipated. The canary cry was better, thank goodness. Diggle being angry was fun to watch even if it stood on shaky ground. Yay, Oliver was faking, yay, something came of the Malcolm team-up subplot (even if it doesn't make that much sense b/c they only knew about the heir thing recently). And YAY for Speedy! I approve of the empowering letter from Roy in a big way and think it'll be fun to have her as a sidekick.

I look forward to Felicity outing Malcolm to the world and will feel enormously cheated if, once again, her threats come to nothing. We see hints of Felicity being awesome but I really need to see her kicking metaphorical butt successfully instead nearly succeeding and then being bailed out yet again, a la Ray in this episode. I feel like type of thing's something we've seen too much of.

Gross (but pretty!) wedding; spout off all the ceremonial "this covenant is sacred" nonsense you want, it's still a forced marriage in an off-the-grid society. There's nothing sacred or legally binding about that. I've lived in a divorce-happy society too long to be that affected by it. I was unmoved.

Tatsu and Maseo got to me. I didn't expect it but when she was holding him I was fighting tears.

That scene at the end where they were all shouting at Oliver was the worst, though. Maybe it would have worked for me if I were identifying with Oliver at that point (oh the poignancy of losing "what's most important" etc.), but I wasn't. At all. It just didn't make sense for all of these disparate personalities to simultaneously respond in basically identical ways.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Ang

[Carrie Ann]

You're right, 10Eleven12. She was the one having to comment about it (although I loved Malcolm's expression after the reveal,ahah), it would have been strager coming from someone else. I guess what you said about her being the love interest putting her at a disadvantage in instances like this one it's also very true.

[...]

On the business side of things, yes, it is stupid that Ray just gave her the company, but that's Tv business for me. Afterall, Isabel did whoknowswhat last year when Oliver signed it off to her that didn't make much sense either. It doesn't bother me that much.

 

To the first point, I think it would have been better for Laurel to say: "I can't believe Nyssa has to marry him." Then pan over to show Felicity looking sickened or whatever. It accomplishes three things at once: showing Laurel's continuing concern for Nyssa (absent this ep after so much focus in the last), clearly defining that Nyssa is the real victim here (particularly as she is still in the dark about Oliver), and still showing Felicity having a reaction to this without making her be the one to say it.

 

To the second point, yeah, what happened with Isabel last year wasn't exactly right either. But they spent the first couple episodes of S2 addressing the issue of shares--Walter came through with the last minute financing that allowed Oliver and Isabel to own equal majority shares and be co-CEOs. And then in the end of the season, there were a couple of scenes devoted to the fact that SEC regulations require the completion of this Board of Directors meeting, that Isabel had to do a fair bit of manipulating within the laws of this country in order to become sole CEO. She drove share prices into the toilet. That equals publicly-traded company. This season, Oliver is trying to buy back majority shares of QC (with investors' backing) AND run the company again. Instead, the Board of Directors rejects that move and sells the shares to RP instead, making him CEO. I think it would take a Board decision to sell the company to Felicity and allow her to run it, and that would be a very risky move from a shareholder/stock price perspective, so I don't think the board would approve it. And even if they did, I still don't think she'd own the company. She'd own the majority shares. (Someone who knows more, correct me if I'm wrong!)

 

So anyway--my issue is that you can't repeatedly make something a plot point and then wave it off a few episodes later and not expect people to eyeroll about it. That is one reason that I'm hoping instead that what is happening is that RP has spun off a segment of the company, and that is what he's given to Felicity. It would sit better with me, and make more sense for everyone involved. And I want Felicity and Oliver to build their company together; I'd prefer it not just be gift-wrapped by Palmer in its entirety.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Starfish35]

I don't really get anyones motivates in this episode though. I feel like the episode had a bunch of different writers who just didn't talk to each other so we got contradictions everywhere.

And that I agree with. Well, not about everyone. I understood Oliver's motivation, and Malcolm's (ultimately self-preservation), and Tatsu's, and Nyssa's. But Diggle felt like he'd done a 180 from the last episode. Laurel was all over the place. And Felicity was doing the verbal equivalent of sticking her fingers in her ears and going "lalalalalalalalala I can't hear you!"

To the first point, I think it would have been better for Laurel to say: "I can't believe Nyssa has to marry him." Then the camera shows Felicity looking sickened or whatever. It accomplishes three things at once: showing Laurel's continuing concern for Nyssa (absent this ep after so much focus in the last), showing that Nyssa having to do this is the real sick thing, and still shows that Felicity is having a reaction to this without making her be the one to say it.

Yes! This would have worked SO much better.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Starfish35

[Chaser]

To the first point, I think it would have been better for Laurel to say: "I can't believe Nyssa has to marry him." Then pan over to show Felicity looking sickened or whatever. It accomplishes three things at once: showing Laurel's continuing concern for Nyssa (absent this ep after so much focus in the last), clearly defining that Nyssa is the real victim here (particularly as she is still in the dark about Oliver), and still showing Felicity having a reaction to this without making her be the one to say it.

 

To the second point, yeah, what happened with Isabel last year wasn't exactly right either. But they spent the first couple episodes of S2 addressing the issue of shares--Walter came through with the last minute financing that allowed Oliver and Isabel to own equal majority shares and be co-CEOs. And then in the end of the season, there were a couple of scenes devoted to the fact that SEC regulations require the completion of this Board of Directors meeting, that Isabel had to do a fair bit of manipulating within the laws of this country in order to become sole CEO. She drove share prices into the toilet. That equals publicly-traded company. This season, Oliver is trying to buy back majority shares of QC (with investors' backing) AND run the company again. Instead, the Board of Directors rejects that move and sells the shares to RP instead, making him CEO. I think it would take a Board decision to sell the company to Felicity and allow her to run it, and that would be a very risky move from a shareholder/stock price perspective, so I don't think the board would approve it. And even if they did, I still don't think she'd own the company. She'd own the majority shares. (Someone who knows more, correct me if I'm wrong!)

 

So anyway--my issue is that you can't repeatedly make something a plot point and then wave it off a few episodes later and not expect people to eyeroll about it. That is one reason that I'm hoping instead that what is happening is that RP has spun off a segment of the company, and that is what he's given to Felicity. It would sit better with me, and make more sense for everyone involved. And I want Felicity and Oliver to build their company together; I'd prefer it not just be gift-wrapped by Palmer in its entirety.

I like that better and I agree. And I find it hilarious/annoying that Laurel didn't give Nyssa a second thought in this episode.

 

Also agree about Felicity and the company. I would have preferred S4 started with her at the same position and working towards that. If she brings Walter back into the fold to run the company, I will forgive this. 

 

And that I agree with. Well, not about everyone. I understood Oliver's motivation, and Malcolm's (ultimately self-preservation), and Tatsu's, and Nyssa's. But Diggle felt like he'd done a 180 from the last episode. Laurel was all over the place. And Felicity was doing the verbal equivalent of sticking her fingers in her ears and going "lalalalalalalalala I can't hear you!"

Yes! This would have worked SO much better.

In the last two/three episodes, they ripped Team Arrow from the LOA storyline. Now they are struggling to get a grasp on anything. it doesn't make any sense.

[Jessie2009]

Did anyone notice that ras was staring down felicity when he asked who told them about the virus until tatsu said Maseo told them. I wonder if he just suspected that oliver had told her or if it's something else?

[quarks]

 

Technically the team put her in danger trying to save Nyssa.   

 

 

I wanted to come back to this, because I think it's important.

 

The Lyla kidnapping/leaving baby Sara alone in the crib only happened because:

 

1. Laurel and Team Arrow ignored Nyssa's express desire to allow her to face the League alone, and her statement that she was ready to face the punishment for her crimes. Nyssa told Laurel and Team Arrow not to interfere.

 

2. Team Arrow chose to believe Nyssa's assessment of the situation - that Oliver had been completely brainwashed and was no longer Oliver - instead of trusting in Oliver and even considering the possibility that Oliver might be faking it/infiltrating the League. This, even though Nyssa has previously kidnapped Dinah and Thea and is not exactly the most trustworthy person herself. And this, even though Team Arrow did not know the one thing the audience did (that Oliver killed someone else as part of his infiltration plan.)  All that Team Arrow saw was Oliver with a blank expression, fighting Nyssa, and then, instead of fighting them (and previous episodes have established that Oliver easily could have taken down Laurel and Diggle) jumping off a building. And this was with Team Arrow knowing that Oliver is, if nothing else, skilled at playing a double game and pretending to be something he isn't.  (Ok, well, he wasn't very good at pretending to be the CEO of QC - but to be fair, back in the second season the script did say that that the QC stock and revenue was up a few months after Oliver mostly took over QC.)

 

So basically, this came down to last episode, Team Arrow trusting Nyssa instead of Oliver, the guy they've been fighting next to for three years, the guy they know pulls plots like this, and the guy that three weeks before that, they were all trusting. If they had seen, as the audience did, Oliver killing someone, that would have made more sense....but they didn't. Oliver then, to keep up the pretense, kidnapped Lyla - someone capable of holding her own. Yes, he left the baby alone in the crib (bad move, Oliver) but did so as Diggle and Felicity were heading over to Diggle's.  And during that fight, Oliver pointedly did not have Felicity searched - giving Team Arrow a chance - and left with Nyssa but without killing anyone.

 

It's very possible that the messy situation in Starling City - where Ra's had to realize, if nothing else, that Oliver had faced his former teammates and chosen not to hurt them, combined with the whole "Let's drug Oliver and take him away from the LoA plot" - increased Ra's suspicions and had him up the "Ok, Oliver, to test your loyalty, I'm going to have you marry my daughter, even though I know you're in love with someone else, and I'm going to have you kill off multiple people in Starling City."

 

So yeah, the reason Team Arrow doesn't trust Oliver in this episode is because, well, they didn't trust Oliver last episode. And that puts Oliver in a real bind, because now he's on a time crunch, dealing with both needing to take the LoA down and stop the LoA from releasing a virus in Central City that will kill thousands, at the very least, and he needs to save his team.  (And yeah, based on the reveal that Oliver wasn't brainwashed, I'm very sure that his final move there was to save his team, whatever he was saying about being willing to sacrifice everything.) And what happens when he finally has a private moment with Diggle? Instead of trusting Oliver, Diggle jumps all over him. I get why - I'd be seriously pissed about the baby Sara stuff as well, and that's not even getting into the not so small problem that in my opinion, at least, trying to take down the League of Assassins from the inside by infiltrating it and working with Malcolm is really not one of Oliver's better ideas. But that also meant that Oliver didn't have the time to explain what was going on beyond a "Trust me," and "I had to make it convincing."

 

I don't mind Felicity focusing on the "I can't believe he's actually marrying her," because, although yes, far more important things were going on, I felt she was speaking for several people there.

[apinknightmare]

Did anyone notice that ras was staring down felicity when he asked who told them about the virus until tatsu said Maseo told them. I wonder if he just suspected that oliver had told her or if it's something else?

 

Yeah, I think he was looking for any kind of clue that Oliver had told her. 

[raytch]

I expect them to drag this break in the bromance into next season but I hope at some point maybe Lyla reminds Diggle that she's not one. 

 

 

 

 

I guess my question is, what should have Oliver done differently?   I have no reason to think he wouldn't have spared them that mental torture if he could have, so what 's his other options specifically?

 

.I agree.  Why Felicity and Diggle (in their own ways) had written off Oliver, I don't get and can't really since the real answer is PLOT!!!  But I knew that going in so most of the rest wasn't so bad. 

 

Maybe this is why I had less of a problem with this episode than the last one.   I never believed Oliver was brainwashed and that was confirmed the moment Oliver snuck out to met with Malcolm.   I never doubted Oliver after that.  Prior to the episode I wondered if I was going to be played and that they would make Oliver say he's not brainwashed only to reveal that he is but he met with Malcolm on the sly.   He had his team come in and try to stop the virus.  He failed, but only because Ra's had set a trap...which Oliver walked into, but all his actions IMO supported that he was never brainwashed (conversation with Diggle if I had any doubts) so I knew he wasn't leaving his team to die...even if they weren't so sure.

 

And just in case there were any doubts the flashback helpfully provided the symptoms which did not include getting sleepy sans orifice bleeding.   I thought the episode was pretty straight forward. 

 

The only thing that surprised me was really Roy ditching Thea "for her own good".   Even using the fake virus wasn't that shocking.  I was surprised that he'd waste any and also that he had an airtight chamber but I never for a second thought they were really dying or that Oliver at that point was Al Sah-him.

 

Maybe that viewpoint altered the way I felt about Oliver's actions.  

 

I get what you're saying. But I loved last week's episode because it did everything to erase Oliver Queen as we know him. I would have liked the episode to spend more time on Oliver being tortured so that we get how exactly that happened, but I thought it was an interesting take on the character, especially that they've been working on breaking The Arrow/Oliver Queen the entire season. And with last episode we were left with some interesting questions such as what makes Oliver Queen/The Arrow himself? And if you remove all the things that make him who he is, then who are we left with?

 

Which is why I felt this episode cancelled everything out. I would have preferred it if Oliver wasn't pretending all along. If he was actually brainwashed and still some how managed to come through the other side.

I remember when the Fringe writers did this with Olivia Dunham when they erased her memory and convinced her of being Fauxlivia, and it was much more interesting to see her rediscovering who she is and exactly what it is that makes her herself.

I know it's not the same situation since we're not up against an evil twin/doppleganger kind of storyline (thank god for that), but I find it essential to not just get the answers to these questions, but to see how exactly the characters will come to answer them.

It just feels like the writers keep skipping some important steps and going straight for the end results of what should be some serious soul searching.

[Guest]

Oh, poor jbuffyangel and followers! Not only was there no Olicity wedding, the show's still planting Lauriver seeds. I'm calling it now, we'll see BC/GA and some dumb "you're the only one who always believed in me" scene in season 5. Maybe 7 if it's still going strong and they want to draw it out a bit.

 

I, for one, am very happy there was no Olicity wedding. Don't see the Lauriver seeds though. And they've painted Felicity as the only one who has always believed in Oliver, even in this episode, so I don't see how that would work. I wouldn't be surprised if they tried it though because the writers are dumb.

[AyChihuahua]

The business stuff is 100% BS.  To start with, Isabel "diluted" the stock, she didn't drive down the share price.  All that means is that she did stuff like stock splits, but Oliver would have still have the same percentage ownership worth the same amount.  Basically, instead of having 500 shares worth $1/each, he'd have 1000 shares worth .50/each.  The proportions don't change.  And him signing over his CEO spot to her wouldn't change any of that...he wouldn't be in control but would still own a lot of shares, meaning a lot of value.  Also, billionaires are very diversified, so even if he somehow lost all his shares (which he didn't), he'd still be extremely rich. 

 

Now, re Palmer signing over whatever to Felicity, also BS, UNLESS he bought enough shares of the former QC to take it private, which is possible.  It's never been mentioned so it's handwaving, but he seems like the kind of guy who wouldn't necessarily want all the rules of a public company.  Private companies can still be huge (for example, Johnson & Johnson is actually private), and still have lots of rules, but at least somewhat fewer rules than public companies. 

[ohjoy]

I know it's not the same situation since we're not up against an evil twin/doppleganger kind of storyline

* this season

 

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

[Guest]

Was it Malcolm's decision not to fill in the team on Oliver's plan? I got the feeling that Oliver expected Malcolm to tell Felicity and Diggle what was going on but Malcolm decided that they were bad actors and kept it to himself. If that's the case then yes, Oliver is still an absolute idiot for placing his trust with MM, but he was still reaching out to others for help. And I think people forget that Oliver is stubborn and doesn't always learn his lesson and he was only just coming to terms with the fact that he had to let other people help him in 319, which is not that long ago. That's like teaching a dog a new trick and expecting them to get it first try. 

[apinknightmare]

The business stuff is 100% BS. 

 

Honestly, that's how I prefer my TV business transactions, haha. I like that entire companies can be transferred from individual to individual with just a simple signature. So much less messy than IRL!

[Duke Silver]

What a horrible, disjointed show this has become.  I still care for some of the characters, but the plot(s)?  Not a bit.  The writers/show-runners should feel embarrassed.  I have no idea how to re-boot everything without it feeling unearned or inducing whiplash.  So many problems, and not the right people to fix them.  I am so disappointed.

[apinknightmare]

Was it Malcolm's decision not to fill in the team on Oliver's plan? I got the feeling that Oliver expected Malcolm to tell Felicity and Diggle what was going on but Malcolm decided that they were bad actors and kept it to himself. 

 

Yeah it seemed like Malcolm's decision, based on his explanation. I really think he's using Malcolm as a conduit for communication because he doesn't give a shit if Ra's kills Malcolm for being in cahoots with him, but he's trying to keep Diggle and Felicity as far away from it as possible.

[Guest]

Yeah it seemed like Malcolm's decision, based on his explanation. I really think he's using Malcolm as a conduit for communication because he doesn't give a shit if Ra's kills Malcolm for being in cahoots with him, but he's trying to keep Diggle and Felicity as far away from it as possible.

 

I thought so too, especially given Oliver's surprise at Diggle's anger in their secret meeting. It seemed like he assumed Diggle would know.

 

Also, as much as I hate Malcolm, he does know the workings of the LOA and he is known as The Magician so he has ways of not being seen and communicating with Oliver secretly. Diggle and Felicity, on the other hand, do not. I absolutely think they should have been informed but I can also see Oliver's reasoning, as much as it pains me to admit because yeah, MM is THE WOOORST. (I hope everyone read that in Jean-Ralphio's voice.)

Edited May 7, 2015 by Guest

[raytch]

* this season

 

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

Haha

(OHGODNOPLEASENO)

[Ang]

Re: Ray signing a multinational, publicly traded company over to his apparently hands-on R&D-oriented Vice President/EX GIRLFRIEND via a two page, two signature form that reads more like a royal decree than any kind of legally binding document: HAHAHAHAHAhahaha NO. Its ridiculousness is not unprecedented so I can fanwave it easily enough, but besides making me wonder what kind of a tax nightmare that would be for Felicity, I'm just really, really concerned for the personal finances and investment portfolios of everyone involved in the creation and oversight of that plot point. That is elementary school levels of business ignorant.

And I hoped that we'd see a little of Felicity's businesswoman comic book persona incorporated, but being handed a business by an ex boyfriend is NOT what I had in mind. The show is overdoing the unintentional misogyny lately.

I know it's not the same situation since we're not up against an evil twin/doppleganger kind of storyline (thank god for that), but I find it essential to not just get the answers to these questions, but to see how exactly the characters will come to answer them.

It just feels like the writers keep skipping some important steps and going straight for the end results of what should be some serious soul searching.

You made some really good points in your post. I especially agree with that last line. Edited May 7, 2015 by Ang

[jester]

I'm surprised Tatsu could pull off the comics-inspired mask. It looks better than the plain black domino mask her Beware The Batman counterpart did. Here's hoping she joins Team Arrow, because we need fresh blood.

 

 

I loved the whole look of Katana. Was just surprised to see her at all given the recently released Suicide Squad movie picture with the character in it. Surprised that DC allowed that but hoping she gets to stick around. Love the character and love the actress.

[AyChihuahua]

I am curious, what was the thematic point of Maseo?  I mean, it turns out he really was just a bad guy.  I think that's the only particularly surprising thing about the episode.

[KenyaJ]

I watched with closed captioning on.  During the wedding ceremony it said all of it was being said in Arabic.

 

LOL. Really? That's hilarious. I don't understand why it wasn't in Arabic with subtitles, but whatever.

 

Anyone who gives Oliver Queen a company to run is an idiot, haha.

 

At the very least, I hope Felicity gives him a job. I miss Oliver having something to do with his days.

 

Oh, poor jbuffyangel and followers! Not only was there no Olicity wedding, the show's still planting Lauriver seeds. I'm calling it now, we'll see BC/GA and some dumb "you're the only one who always believed in me" scene in season 5. Maybe 7 if it's still going strong and they want to draw it out a bit.

 

What Lauriver seeds were there? I thought the Lauriver fans' heads would explode from hearing Laurel say she had no faith in Oliver followed up by Felicity's "our Oliver ... my Oliver." Lauriver is as dead as a door nail.

[kismet]

So I was thinking this morning, that perhaps Oliver was going to tell Felicity something about his plan, at least that he might have to use MM again. But then they got a little distracted during 20 and then she drugged him the morning after, so there was no quality time for him to even establish the basic groundwork. I don't think he would have told her much of the plan for her own safety, since I agree with the people above. The first person Ras stared down was Felicity. So whatever he would have said, would have been vague. But like I said at the end of 20, the let's not say goodbye this time seemed to be a secret code or promise of something.

 

It does not bother me that Oliver is working with MM as a conduit. Kudos to whoever came up with that name for him! He is the most logical of people. Yes, he not necessarily the most trustworthy. However, he does have the most knowledge of LoA (their practices/facilities) & NP. Also he is expendable should he get caught. Nevermind, he owes OQ bigtime for getting them all into this situation. Also Diggle has a family, so he can't be going from SC to NP indefinitely. Felicity does not have the field/military experience, and for some reason secret tech does not seem to be an option. Laurel/Ray just NO.

 

I feel like he should have told TA earlier, but the whole time table has been thrown off. Honestly, if they never intended for OQ to be fully brainwashed - they should have started this plot earlier perhaps after suicidal tendencies and let it play out a little longer. They just jam packing so much in there. Its showing a lot of the weaknesses in their plotting, as well as the characters all seem to be suffering from some whiplash as they ping pong back & forth emotionally/mentally.

[Ang]

I, for one, am very happy there was no Olicity wedding. Don't see the Lauriver seeds though. And they've painted Felicity as the only one who has always believed in Oliver, even in this episode, so I don't see how that would work. I wouldn't be surprised if they tried it though because the writers are dumb.

Ditto about the wedding; it just wouldn't have been good timing. I could very well be wrong about Lauriver (and my Olicity-shipping heart hopes I am) but we've seen at least two instances now of Felicity metaphorically wringing her hands over Oliver's death while Laurel stands by insisting that he's still around. Now, Oliver has no way of knowing about that, and to his face she does (as she has so frequently) question and doubt if not belittle him, but as you said the writers are dumb.

You know how sometimes shows will sort of hint at the overall arc of the show in the first season (or pilot) before they're sure the show will take off? I think I'm seeing signs of a retread of season 1 themes. I suspect they're at the very least hedging their bets if not actively planning a Lauriver reconciliation (or at least hook up) down the line. Because comics, or whatever.

ETA: Ok, I rewatched the Laurel/Felicity/Diggle scene I was thinking of, and Laurel doesn't actually stick up for Oliver as much as I remembered. So maybe I'm full of it? I still think its a possibility, though I am a pessimist and maybe I'm just preparing for the worst. ;-)

Edited May 7, 2015 by Ang

[Trini]

I am curious, what was the thematic point of Maseo?  I mean, it turns out he really was just a bad guy.  I think that's the only particularly surprising thing about the episode.

 

Oliver needed someone to interact with in the flashbacks? And then to connect the past and present storylines.

[Artsda]

Felicity can still rename the company to Queen Inc., not because she's married to Oliver and not in Oliver's name, but to honour Moira (whom she was not fond of, but then again...)

 

Or she can just give it to Oliver.  

I would hope she's not stupid enough to do any of that considering how badly Oliver ran Queen Consolidated. Ray's giving her his company, she should honor that and not just pass it off to Oliver as  a way to pacify him or give him a company back.

[AyChihuahua]

That's a plot purpose, though.  What was his thematic purpose?

[Starfish35]

So maybe I'm full of it?

No, I was picking up on some weird vibes (sorry) from her too, but I couldn't really get a handle on it. Unfortunately I think I'd have to see it again really to pinpoint what it was that was setting off my anti-Lauriver alarms, but I'm not sure I'm up to a rewatch yet. :(

[Guest]

Ditto about the wedding; it just wouldn't have been good timing. I could very well be wrong about Lauriver (and my Olicity-shipping heart hopes I am) but we've seen at least two instances now of Felicity metaphorically wringing her hands over Oliver's death while Laurel stands by insisting that he's still around. Now, Oliver has no way of knowing about that, and to his face she does (as she has so frequently) question and doubt if not belittle him, but as you said the writers are dumb.

You know how sometimes shows will sort of hint at the overall arc of the show in the first season (or pilot) before they're sure the show will take off? I think I'm seeing signs of a retread of season 1 themes. I suspect they're at the very least hedging their bets if not actively planning a Lauriver reconciliation (or at least hook up) down the line. Because comics, or whatever.

ETA: Ok, I rewatched the Laurel/Felicity/Diggle scene I was thinking of, and Laurel doesn't actually stick up for Oliver as much as I remembered. So maybe I'm full of it? I still think its a possibility, though I am a pessimist and maybe I'm just preparing for the worst. ;-)

 

An Olicity wedding would have been the WORST timing and completely ridiculous. I'm actually surprised any pro-Olicity fan would want them married now. The whole theory baffled me.

 

Hehe, it's understandable to prepare for the worst. I wouldn't put anything past these writers if the show goes on for a lot of seasons, although at this point I feel it unlikely. I can see SA wanting to move on to a movie career tbh. But anyway, I just don't see any foundation for Lauriver at all and certainly not in this episode. Laurel went back and forth on whether she believed in Oliver or not. First she didn't, then she did. It seems like she barely tolerates him nowadays. In 321 she was more concerned for Nyssa than anything to do with Oliver. 

 

Contrast this to Felicity who is steadfast in her belief of Oliver, who loves him despite everything. Laurel (and Diggle) went to NP to help fight for the city, while Felicity went to fight for Oliver. Honestly, the only reasoning for Lauriver at this point is the comics and nothing on the show supports that so I just hand wave it. 

[Chaser]

IIRC, Laurel and Diggle were like This is Oliver, Oliver Bad

 

Felicity was like Not Oliver, Oliver Dead.

 

I still don't understand the point of that. And why where they side-eyeing Felicity for trying to hold on to her good memories of Oliver and separating them from 'brainwashed' Oliver memories?

[Ang]

That's a plot purpose, though. What was his thematic purpose?

Maybe he's a foil for Oliver and a cautionary tale. Oliver is trying to survive, to use his deadly skills for good, and is struggling to preserve his identity; Maseo willingly gave up his agency and identity in the face of loss.

[AyChihuahua]

There's a new well-written short fanfic that basically ends with an LOA guy telling Oliver that diseased bodies are immediately burned.  Kinda cracked me up, although of course it's also horrible.

[Trini]

That's a plot purpose, though.  What was his thematic purpose?

 

Cautionary tale for Oliver?

(Er-- what Ang said.)

[AyChihuahua]

Oliver has sure had a lot of cautionary tales.  Maybe he should learn to read.

Edited May 7, 2015 by AyChihuahua