S05.E04: The Sons Of The Harpy

[nksarmi]

Just knowing that a lot of this stuff is going to lead nowhere makes me realize that I'm totally going to be chapter hopping when TWoW finally comes out. 

LOL I was already chapter hoping on the last two books.  I read all the POV chapters of the characters I really liked and then went back and skimmed the others to see if I missed anything important.  Seriously, I had the feeling by the last two books that he was literally introducing characters and storylines that were going to go nowhere.  I felt like some characters were added just to die and I couldn't help but think "You know, just because you don't want to kill your remaining main characters until the end of the series doesn't mean you had to add characters in that would contribute nothing to the story except that gave you someone else to kill off."

[DigitalCount]

Some other things I remember thinking during the episode: I was so glad that Margaery got caught in that lie about being gal pals with Cersei. Smirky little jerk finally made a misstep, though she recovered well enough.

Also, I have to keep reminding myself that Show!Loras is older and less belligerent than his book counterpart. The guys who arrested him would definitely be dead if they tried that with the character from the books, but it might be a better idea to take his chances and go quietly. He was grabbed from behind by around five dudes when he wasn't expecting a real fight, in any case.

[Shanna]

Some other things I remember thinking during the episode: I was so glad that Margaery got caught in that lie about being gal pals with Cersei.

I don't know that I would consider that much of a lie by Margarey. She just tried to get along with or pretend to get along with her mil. That's not strange or evil to me.

I do think the show was irritating because they had Margarey repeat that 'what should I call you' business three or four times! I don't think she's that dumb. ( the thing about it being a little early for wine was much more her style - pretend to be solicitous while actually making a dig).

I would much rather be getting Lora's training tommen to fight as they did in the books than this laurel taken by the faith business. The only thing I liked about the faith in the books is that they gave Cersei shit and some of the river lands implications. I think it was a mistake to make their plot move so fast and solely occur in kings landing. If it weren't for Jonathan price and hot lancel I wouldn't enjoy this at all.

[Funzlerks]

Lancel's makeover is so hot - even with the face carving.

When is Baelish's whoremaster going to realize that his protest isn't working?

I thought Jaime was still in love with Cersei for most of the Riverlands. He was so mad at her because he realized she was so untrue and it offended him that he had been so loyal. I also thought he was still a psycho - thinking about how he tried to kill Arya with no remorse, and realizing he might actually be about to trebuchet a baby on a wall without to much reflection. I think he would have been a horrible hand or king. He didn't even begin to approach grown up feelings until he was Westeros grandfather-aged. Cersei would have led him around no matter what and she is an idiot so he has to be worse.

[BlackberryJam]

You're right, Jaime does spend most of his Riverlands journey moping about Cersei interspersed with thoughts of Brienne. It isn't some instant "I don't love her!" revelation. The "Moon Boy for all I know" mantra gets repeated...a lot. 

 

So Jaime should still be mopey about Cersei, but the change is happening.  The Heart Eyes at Tarth is Jaime thinking of Brienne, Bronn saying "She want the same thing" is Jaime starting to question his relationship, and then to symbolically top it off, Bronn kicks out the flames right after that conversation.

 

No, we don't have Jaime's inner monologue, but we have scenes that reflect it. And honestly, that Moon Boy shit pissed me off after a while.  And it seems there are more than two of those necklaces in the world after all, considering Joffrey gave one to Sansa. So, I suspect Jaime will discover some Cersei treachery while in Dorne.  I wouldn't be surprised if she hadn't paid off the ship's captain to sell Jaime out too.

[magdalene]

 

One of the things that really impressed me about Jaime's Rivelands tour is that it demonstrated that he's an effective and fair administrator with diplomatic skills.  His identity is so wrapped up in being a warrior and the loss of his hand left him bereft, but it's clear he has other talents and would make a very good adviser or even Hand to a king.  He dealt with the latest Bracken/Blackwood feud, got the Tullys to give up (even though the Blackfish slipped through his fingers), dealt with Jeyne Westerling's horrible mother, went out of his way to help the serving girl Pia when she was nothing to him, and understands the food situation for the smallfolk is dangerously dire and is about to get even worse and is searching for solutions.  Bummer that that miserable zombie Stoneheart seems to have taken him out of commission for the time being and hopefully not permanently.  He was doing a good job.

Yes, I regret that we won't have that plot line for the same reasons. Right now I can't imagine what they could possible have happen in Dorne to match the Riverlands Jaime character development.

[DigitalCount]

I don't know that I would consider that much of a lie by Margarey. She just tried to get along with or pretend to get along with her mil. That's not strange or evil to me.

I honestly think that she was pretending in that manner in order to mask the fact that she was trying to shut Cersei out of Kings' Landing. If she hates Cersei and tells Tommen to get rid of her, it's an attack on his beloved mother. If she and Cersei are besties and she tells Tommen to send her home, it's for her dear mother-in-law's own sake. Her facial expression after Tommen says he thought they were getting along says it all IMO.

[Hecate7]

Lancel's makeover is so hot - even with the face carving.

When is Baelish's whoremaster going to realize that his protest isn't working?

I thought Jaime was still in love with Cersei for most of the Riverlands. He was so mad at her because he realized she was so untrue and it offended him that he had been so loyal. I also thought he was still a psycho - thinking about how he tried to kill Arya with no remorse, and realizing he might actually be about to trebuchet a baby on a wall without to much reflection. I think he would have been a horrible hand or king. He didn't even begin to approach grown up feelings until he was Westeros grandfather-aged. Cersei would have led him around no matter what and she is an idiot so he has to be worse.

That was not my takeaway from the trebuchet speech. He's saying one thing while thinking, "don't call my bluff on this, please." I like Jaime's internal monologues because they show him starting to question everything about his life.

[Avaleigh]

So, I suspect Jaime will discover some Cersei treachery while in Dorne.  I wouldn't be surprised if she hadn't paid off the ship's captain to sell Jaime out too.

I don't agree that Cersei set Jaime up with the captain and I do think she wants Jaime to be successful in the rescue with Myrcella, but I agree that she seemed pretty indifferent to whether he would come back or not so maybe some part of him is okay with him never coming back since she doesn't really see him as being useful to her anymore. Their parting was about as chilly as it gets without so much as a hug goodbye just in case it's the last time they ever see each other. The desk was between them and Cersei was full of nothing but anger and criticism for Jaime. She's still angry with him for freeing Tyrion and Tyrion consequently killing their father (and getting away with Joff's murder from her perspective) and she's telling Jaime that he's never been a father to any of their children. 

 

It's frustrating because Jaime barely seems to have any issues with Cersei and everything should be continuing to build up for him but it seems like there are more reasons for Cersei to be over Jaime than the other way around. There's also the fact that we have show Cersei doing a bunch of things that book Jaime always wanted her to do on top of him not finding out that she hasn't been faithful to him in the way that he's been faithful to her. 

 

I have to think that Jaime will finally have sex with somebody else now that he's in Dorne and that Bronn will encourage him in this regard. That'll be progress. 

[RedHackle]

All of the R+L=J talk here brings up something that has bothered me for a long time.  I seem to be the only person alive who doesn't thing RT is the father - but rather RB. In a show and book series that makes such a big stinking deal about hair color, I think that Jon Snow's dark brown/black hair is the tip-off, no?  And speaking of hair color, and sorry if this is OT, (please tell me where to ask this question )- why has Tyrion's hair color gone from Lannister-gold to dark brown over the seasons? 

[Avaleigh]

All of the R+L=J talk here brings up something that has bothered me for a long time.  I seem to be the only person alive who doesn't thing RT is the father - but rather RB. In a show and book series that makes such a big stinking deal about hair color, I think that Jon Snow's dark brown/black hair is the tip-off, no? 

The Targaryen genes don't seem to dominate. Rhaegar's kids with Elia Martell had dark hair too. 

 

If Robert Baratheon had been Jon's father then Ned wouldn't have needed to keep it a secret from him. I also think that Jon would have had blue or grey eyes. 

 

 And speaking of hair color, and sorry if this is OT, (please tell me where to ask this question )- why has Tyrion's hair color gone from Lannister-gold to dark brown over the seasons? 

To me it seems like pure laziness but that's just my not so humble opinion. Jaime's hair isn't as blonde as it used to be either.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Avaleigh

[nodorothyparker]

I've always read book Jaime as a severe case of arrested development.  He never really progressed beyond the teenager who basically threw away his birthright for the Kingsguard so he could be with the only girl he ever had sex with (who just happened to be his sister).  Killing the mad king was the right thing to do but he was so reviled for it that he basically put his head down and never bothered much with the world outside of Kings Landing or the Lannister family again until he was captured. His continual thumbing his nose at Tywin with his complete lack of ambition and refusal to even consider taking his place as Tywin's heir and next lord of Casterly Rock are the actions of a petulant teenager.  It's not until he's had time to cool his heels as a Stark prisoner, followed swiftly by Brienne reawakening his lost idealism and losing his hand that he starts to really consider the world around him and his place in it and what that all means.

 

He does spend a lot of his Riverlands adventure thinking about Cersei, largely because he's furious with her and slowly realizing just how much of his life has been shaped by trying to please or protect her rather than because he felt any real conviction about it.  He flung Bran from that window because he thought it was what she wanted.  He would have ridden Arya down had he found her because Cersei asked.  That doesn't erase his culpability, but Jaime is one of the few characters in the series who doesn't do things purely out of malice or sense of vengeance.  I never bought that he was itching to trebuchet a baby either, but that he could see that the Riverrun siege was getting nowhere and that the smallfolk and army alike sitting outside its walls would suffer if they were still sitting there when the snows came.  

 

For all his protestations to Tywin about never wanting to be a great lord, his actions in the Riverlands demonstrate that he does have it in him to be a pretty decent one if he's willing to work at it.  Maybe not a sainted Ned Stark type of lord, but not a scorched earth Tywin Lannister either.  I don't know how you translate any of this to his adventures in Dorne though.

Edited May 7, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[proserpina65]

I was gonna say, lol, seems like he's following his story trajectory quite well. The Tyrion of Dance is an out-and-out villain in many ways, and that would probably be too far, but becoming annoying? That's just the character.

True.  I guess I was hoping that the show wouldn't make me dislike him as much as I did in DwD. 

[Avaleigh]

I've always read book Jaime as a severe case of arrested development.  He never really progressed beyond the teenager who basically threw away his birthright for the Kingsguard so he could be with the only girl he ever had sex with (who just happened to be his sister).  Killing the mad king was the right thing to do but he was so reviled for it that he basically put his head down and never bothered much with the world outside of Kings Landing or the Lannister family again until he was captured. His continual thumbing his nose at Tywin with his complete lack of ambition and refusal to even consider taking his place as Tywin's heir and next lord of Casterly Rock are the actions of a petulant teenager.  It's not until he's had time to cool his heels as a Stark prisoner, followed swiftly by Brienne reawakening his lost idealism and losing his hand that he starts to really consider the world around him and his place in it and what that all means.

 

He does spend a lot of his Riverlands adventure thinking about Cersei, largely because he's furious with her and slowly realizing just how much of his life has been shaped by trying to please or protect her rather than because he felt any real conviction about it.  He flung Bran from that window because he was thought it was what she wanted.  He would have ridden Arya down had he found her because Cersei asked.  That doesn't erase his culpability, but Jaime is one of the few characters in the series who doesn't do things purely out of malice or sense of vengeance.  I never bought that he was itching to trebuchet a baby either, but that he could see that the Riverrun siege was getting nowhere and that the smallfolk and army alike sitting outside its walls would suffer if they were still sitting there when the snows came.  

 

For all his protestations to Tywin about never wanting to be a great lord, his actions in the Riverlands demonstrate that he does have it in him to be a pretty decent one if he's willing to work at it.  Maybe not a sainted Ned Stark type of lord, but not a scorched earth Tywin Lannister either.  I don't know how you translate any of this to his adventures in Dorne though.

I agree with all of your post except for the bit in bold. I think that Jaime threw Bran from the tower in order to save all five of their lives. I don't think it was just as simply as about Cersei wanting it. This next part is debatable but I think Jaime makes it plain that Cersei didn't want Bran to be thrown from the tower and keeps throwing it in his face. She seems to think that they could have scared him into silence. Some people think she's just saying that to absolve herself of responsibility but both of their POVs gave me the impression that Jaime made an impulsive decision that he thought would save their lives only it ended up complicating matters in ways that they couldn't have predicted. 

[The Mormegil]

Paramitch, I sooooo agree with this!  And I would add the whole (fake) Aegon storyline too.  Makes me so angry to get interested and invested in these storylines and characters only to find out now they are irrelevant?  Curse you, Martin!

 

You can't really say for certain what's going to be important and what's not. Even if a character doesn't get included in  the show their storyline might well do so.

 

No Edric Storm yet Gendry gets his storyline in the show.

 

No Jeyne Poole yet we still have her storyline in the show.

 

I have a feeling Jorah will end up inheriting part of Griffs storyline.

 

For all we know Young Griff may have a vital part to play in books 6 or 7 which will be given to Gendry or someone else in the show.

 

The Targaryen genes don't seem to dominate. Rhaegar's kids with Elia Martell had dark hair too.

 

One did, one didn't.

There are other examples given of dark haired Targs though.

Edited May 6, 2015 by The Mormegil

[proserpina65]

Just knowing that a lot of this stuff is going to lead nowhere makes me realize that I'm totally going to be chapter hopping when TWoW finally comes out. 

We don't actually know that it's extraneous in the book series.  Only that D&D have elected to chop things from the series and, in some instances, go in an entirely different direction.  If GRRM ever gets the last two books finished (and I'm not holding my breath), we might discover that his vision for the series is quite unlike D&D's.

[Shanna]

I honestly think that she was pretending in that manner in order to mask the fact that she was trying to shut Cersei out of Kings' Landing. If she hates Cersei and tells Tommen to get rid of her, it's an attack on his beloved mother. If she and Cersei are besties and she tells Tommen to send her home, it's for her dear mother-in-law's own sake. Her facial expression after Tommen says he thought they were getting along says it all IMO.

What I mean is that I see most of this as Margarey being diplomatic. I also think tommen would be miles better off if his mother went to kings landing so it's no betrayal.

All of the R+L=J talk here brings up something that has bothered me for a long time. I seem to be the only person alive who doesn't thing RT is the father - but rather RB. In a show and book series that makes such a big stinking deal about hair color, I think that Jon Snow's dark brown/black hair is the tip-off, no?

I think nobody thinks of that because Jon is said to look like a Stark. Like arya. Like Lyanna.

I also never thought she seemed very interested in Robert from the way everyone talked although we know nothing from her perspective. But if Jon had been Roberts they would have just gotten not so secretly married since that was the plan anyway.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Shanna

[nodorothyparker]

I agree with all of your post except for the bit in bold. I think that Jaime threw Bran from the tower in order to save all five of their lives. I don't think it was just as simply as about Cersei wanting it. This next part is debatable but I think Jaime makes it plain that Cersei didn't want Bran to be thrown from the tower and keeps throwing it in his face. She seems to think that they could have scared him into silence. Some people think she's just saying that to absolve herself of responsibility but both of their POVs gave me the impression that Jaime made an impulsive decision that he thought would save their lives only it ended up complicating matters in ways that they couldn't have predicted.

I agree protecting their lives and their children's lives was definitely a huge part of it, or at least a nice side benefit. And yes, he does say Cersei has given him no end of shit for doing it, but that's all after the fact when it's very easy for her to claim whatever she wants. It's not like they sat around and discussed it before making the decision to push Bran. I wish I had time to go back and find the specific section where he's musing on this because it's entirely possible my memory is faulty, but it's always been my impression that he never thought beyond solving the immediate problem, which he what he thought she wanted.

[Featherhat]

I honestly think that she was pretending in that manner in order to mask the fact that she was trying to shut Cersei out of Kings' Landing. If she hates Cersei and tells Tommen to get rid of her, it's an attack on his beloved mother. If she and Cersei are besties and she tells Tommen to send her home, it's for her dear mother-in-law's own sake. Her facial expression after Tommen says he thought they were getting along says it all IMO.

She's certainly pretending with Cersei and Tommen, but it doesn't strike me as that much worse than a modern MIL and DIL who can't stand each other and try and manipulate the spouse or diplomatically lie when asked do you like my mother?" Of course the stakes are upped times a million for all involved and I think Margaery could stand to be a lot more subtle about her manoeuvring, she is being pretty blatant.

As for Robert being Jon's father, I don't see the story going there, it would be even more difficult to prove than Rhaegar assuming some dragon ability and the fact that Lyanna had been in Rhaegar's company/custody for a long time before her alleged dying in child birth.

[RedHackle]

Meryn Trant is sent to Braavos where someone is very eager to show him some needlework.
/\Love this!

 

If Jon had given in and had sex with her in that moment what would be her next move?
Ye gods, don’t even ask that!  She made a smoke monster that killed Renley when she had sex with Stannis – can you imagine what she could do with some Jon Snow baby batter?  But very glad that she failed in her attempt to seduce him.  And by the way, when is gravity gonna kick in for her, anyway? 

 

also never thought she seemed very interested in Robert from the way everyone talked although we know nothing from her perspective. But if Jon had been Roberts they would have just gotten not so secretly married since that was the plan anyway.

I do think it’s entirely possible that while Robert loved Lyana with all his heart, she may have been more interested in Rhaegar.  So when she becomes pregnant with a child that may be the offspring of either of them, she begs Ned to take the child away and keep him safe – if he’s Rhaegar’s, say, and not Robert’s, you get where she might fear for the child’s life.  OTOH, the reverse could prove to be equally perilous for the baby. 

 

What I can’t remember from the books is when the scene happens where Lyanna begs Ned to take the baby (I think it wasn’t explicit, but hinted at that that’s what she was asking him).  Was this before or after Robert’s Revolt?

[Elkins]

I didn't love Dorne in the books, but on TV it's a mess. The Sand Snake scenes were just bad TV. They stood around on a pile of indistinguishable sand and talked about how they all agreed with each other. Then they talked about Jaime being in Dorne, something the audience already knew. There was no real characterization and no new plot since we already saw that Eliria was out for revenge.

I agree, it was a horribly written scene. For that matter, it barely seemed written at all -- it came across more like the bare bones outline of a scene, or perhaps like an improv exercise in which none of the participants had any prior experience improvising. There was no drama and no conflict, and it didn't even serve to introduce the characters properly (Quick: give me a one-word personality descriptor for each of the three girls! Yeah, I can't do it either). Would it have been too much to ask for one or two of the Snakes to be undecided on the issue, so that we could hear a bit of debate or see one of them being persuaded to join with the others? The episode was only 50 minutes long, surely they could have spent a few more minutes to add some actual drama to that scene.

Also, Obara's monologue made no damned sense. Choosing the hard power of the spear over the soft power of manipulative tears isn't at all the same thing as choosing war over peace, and anyone who thinks it is, frankly, ought never be entrusted with any sort of power at all.

 

Also, I'm not looking forward to the plot where women are crazy and out for revenge and Doran/Trystane are calm, thoughtful and have the cool plan.

 

Yeah, that's problematic as well. Then, I wasn't crazy about the "look how incompetent every single female character who tries to play politics is!" feel to the books either. Arianne? Shoulda trusted in Papa Doran, silly girl. Cersei? Shoulda let Uncie Kevan handle things, silly girl. Daenerys? Lol, why are you trying to rule, you silly little girl? Shoulda stuck with blowing things up!"

 

I am sure that it was not intentional, but it truly grated after a while. Tyrion ultimately failed too, when he tried to exercise power in King's Landing, but I felt the narrative offered him a degree of dignity that it repeatedly denied to any female character who tried and failed to play the game.

 

Imagine if they'd all been able to work together to make Tommen's reign as strong as it can be.

 

It's a shame, isn't it? So much of this story -- hell, so much of human history, for that matter -- seems to boil down to "oh, look! Another catastrophe that might have been averted, if only people had stopped acting like assholes and worked together instead."

 

Comments from D&D in addition to comments from viewers about how understandable it is that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes completely blame the Lannisters for Oberyn's death. I'm getting the impression that I'm supposed to want to see the Sands fight back even if it means going through Myrcella to do so and that this is somehow root worthy to people simply because they're standing up to the supposedly evil Lannisters.

 

Huh. Well, that's incredibly disturbing, I agree. They just came across as pure antagonists to me, especially with the scorpion torture and the murdering of useful informants and all that. I don't see anything sympathetic about people conspiring to hurt an innocent girl either, and conspiring to instigate a war is straight-up moustache-twirling arch-villainy in my book.

 

Then, I was totally freaked out when people started objecting to the lack of Lady Stoneheart by saying things like: "But it's depriving the audience of the feel-good ending!" I...what? VengeanceZombieCat was supposed to feel good? The hell? A similar thing also happened for me with Manderly and his creepy House of Atreus schtick. I...was supposed to be fist-pumping for cannibalism and Thyestian feasts? Really?

 

So hell, I don't know, maybe we are supposed to be cheering on the Sand Snakes for their plot to mutilate an innocent girl and condemn thousands more to death by plunging their principate into war. It would make about as much sense as viewing a main character coming back from the dead as a horrific twisted mockery of what she was in life and then wandering around joylessly committing vengeance killings as a "feel-good ending."

 

On the show I feel like the female characters who are skilled when it comes to fighting (Brienne, Asha, Ygritte, Arya, etc.) tend to be played sympathetically and so far I don't think Obara is going to be an exception.

 

Hmmm, yeah. Well, at the risk of starting up an irresolvable debate, that's a problem I had with the books as a whole. I always felt that the more classically 'feminine' female characters were being written with a certain degree of authorial contempt, and it really bothered me. It's the main reason I gave up on the series after ASOS, in fact. But I am well aware that others read Martin very differently.

 

*Re: Margaery and the smallfolk--

Seeing the HS interact with the smallfolk just highlights to me how superficial all of Margaery's efforts towards the smallfolk have been and it makes me think that the HS will be able to easily see through how phony she is underneath all the rosy smiles.

 

In the books, I seem to remember her hypocrisy coming across as far more bothersome, because the famine that her "charitable efforts" were acting to relieve was largely caused by her family's blockade in the first place. I don't think that was ever pointed out in the show, was it? On the show I felt her charity work was portrayed more positively. Sure her motives aren't pure, but if I'm one of the people trying to feed and clothe a gaggle of war orphans in Flea Bottom, I can't imagine caring all that much about the purity of her motives or the state of her soul. Is there now food where there wasn't food before? Yes? Alrighty then! Keep up that PR campaign, Queen Marge! In fact, could we have a bit more phoniness next month? The kids could use some new smallclothes.

 

But the HS has his own agenda and his own concerns, I'm sure.

 

I can't remember for certain without going back and rewatching season 2, but wasn't Bronn there when Tyrion was blackmailing Lancel about his relationship with Cersei?  Since the show missed the prime opportunity of having Lancel lay that particular hard truth on Jaime when the characters were in the same place for the first time since maybe season 1, I'm hoping maybe Bronn can do it.

 

Personally, I'm hoping that in the show, the writers will find some way to allow Jaime to become disenchanted with Cersei without harping on the whole "she slept with other guys, whatta slut" thing. I mean, really, of all of the truly horrible things about Cersei, that's the one that Jaime must fixate on? (And fixate on, and fixate on, and fixate on, and Moonboy for all I know Moonboy for all I know Moonboy for oh my god shut up shut up shut up!) It annoyed me in the books; I like to think it's something the show could improve upon.

 

I'm totally in agreement with everything else you wrote about Jaime's Riverlands story, though. I did like seeing him start to really think about his actions, take responsibility for himself, and show that in fact, he did have the chaps to be a halfway decent ruler of men. I hope that the show doesn't take a pass on that aspect of his development, which honestly, I consider a lot more important than his growing estrangement from Cersei. Yes, the two are interrelated, but I'd much rather see the emphasis on the former than on the latter.

 

It's weird. I'm both petrified at where this season is going because it feels so wildly off track. Yet it's also so much fun. It also feels kind of exhilarating too.

Yes. :D

Edited May 6, 2015 by Elkins

[Shanna]

What I can’t remember from the books is when the scene happens where Lyanna begs Ned to take the baby (I think it wasn’t explicit, but hinted at that that’s what she was asking him). Was this before or after Robert’s Revolt?

Promise me Ned! Promise me! Lol. That's what I remember. It was in the tower right before she died I believe. They don't explicitly mention the baby.

I loved Sansa visiting the crypt. I really hope this leads somewhere bad ass instead of disgusting. If D&D can kill off ser barriston than they can damn well kill off Ramsey!!!

Edited May 6, 2015 by Shanna

[Avaleigh]

Then, I wasn't crazy about the "look how incompetent every single female character who tries to play politics is!" feel to the books either. Arianne? Shoulda trusted in Papa Doran, silly girl. Cersei? Shoulda let Uncie Kevan handle things, silly girl. Daenerys? Lol, why are you trying to rule, you silly little girl? Shoulda stuck with blowing things up!"

 

I am sure that it was not intentional, but it truly grated after a while. Tyrion ultimately failed too, when he tried to exercise power in King's Landing, but I felt the narrative offered him a degree of dignity that it repeatedly denied to any female character who tried and failed to play the game.

It's good that Lysa kept the Vale out of the war but she definitely wasn't a good ruler and her reasons for not wanting to get involved were basically self motivated. Selyse is another book character who gives off the vibe that she'd be a crap ruler. I agree that it sucks that there aren't positive examples of a competent female ruler.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Starving Writer]

Rhaegar's "kidnapping" of Lyanna led to Robert's Rebellion, which lasted for "close to a year."  Plenty of time for Lyanna to become pregnant and to carry Rhaegar's baby to term.  Robert's Rebellion ended when Jamie Lannister slayed the Mad King (and with the sacking of King's Landing by Tywin's troops), and Ned Stark found Jamie sitting on the Iron Throne and made him get off the throne.  

 

Ned Start then went to retrieve Lyanna from the Tower of Joy shortly after this happened, only to find her dying in a pool of blood.  Lyanna's last action was to make Ned promise her something (what the promise was is never revealed).  

 

Shortly afterwards, Ned returned home carrying a baby in tow, which he would claim was his bastard and named the baby Jon Snow.   

[paramitch]

The more I think about it - the more I believe this may be the one plot - Jamie in the Riverlands - that I am truly sad to see the show drop.  His character changed SO much during that part of the books.  With everything else - even the Stoneheart story which I admit that I hated - it doesn't seem vital to the story OR it was all Red Herrings anyway.  So I wonder if either all the progress Jamie makes in the Riverlands is later reversed or if the show plans on having him make similar strides while in Dorne.  It doesn't feel like he has progressed much and I believe he is still smitten with Cersei (which is disappointing) but they do have 6 episodes left to get him where he should be - especially if they plan to be more or less done with book 5 by the end of this season.

 

I agree, and would actually go further to say that Jaime is the one character I feel that D&D do not understand at all, and they have consistently changed and morphed his character in the transition to Show Jaime in ways that have really harmed the character's complexity. I'm a sucker for redemption arcs, and the Jaime of the books takes a pretty unswerving path toward that redemption from early on in book 1. On the show, however, D&D keep tossing in these weird moments and actions and thoughts (cousin-killing, rape, etc.) that show me that they do not get this character at all, and the current move of his storyline to Dorne from the Riverlands worries me as yet another symptom of that. 

 

So Jaime should still be mopey about Cersei, but the change is happening.  The Heart Eyes at Tarth is Jaime thinking of Brienne, Bronn saying "She want the same thing" is Jaime starting to question his relationship, and then to symbolically top it off, Bronn kicks out the flames right after that conversation.

This is a great analysis. I hope they move forward on this and keep it in line with his growing realizations in the books.

 

I agree, it was a horribly written scene. For that matter, it barely seemed written at all -- it came across more like the bare bones outline of a scene, or perhaps like an improv exercise in which none of the participants had any prior experience improvising. There was no drama and no conflict, and it didn't even serve to introduce the characters properly (Quick: give me a one-word personality descriptor for each of the three girls! Yeah, I can't do it either). Would it have been too much to ask for one or two of the Snakes to be undecided on the issue, so that we could hear a bit of debate or see one of them being persuaded to join with the others? The episode was only 50 minutes long, surely they could have spent a few more minutes to add some actual drama to that scene.

I was really disappointed in the Sand Snakes, and I've been very disappointed in Ellaria, who is such a one-note character at the moment (and it's doubly disappointing as I adore Indira Varma and was looking forward to her moving center stage). I also agree with those who thought Keisha Castle-Hughes was really regrettably weak in both her delivery and in her accent consistency on her big monologue. Although she wielded the spear nicely.

 

I hope the Dorne story ends up being more complex than it's currently shaping up to be -- right now it just looks like more stupid blatant preaching that yes, "an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind." It's not the most subtle moral. But I have hope that it becomes richer and more complex with Jaime and Bronn in the mix with Doran (and hope Bronn survives it, darn it).

[Winnief]

Yeah, that's problematic as well. Then, I wasn't crazy about the "look how incompetent every single female character who tries to play politics is!" feel to the books either. Arianne? Shoulda trusted in Papa Doran, silly girl. Cersei? Shoulda let Uncie Kevan handle things, silly girl. Daenerys? Lol, why are you trying to rule, you silly little girl? Shoulda stuck with blowing things up!"

 

Hmmm, yeah. Well, at the risk of starting up an irresolvable debate, that's a problem I had with the books as a whole. I always felt that the more classically 'feminine' female characters were being written with a certain degree of authorial contempt, and it really bothered me. It's the main reason I gave up on the series after ASOS, in fact. But I am well aware that others read Martin very differently.

 

Well, I am *hoping* that Sansa may be destined to buck both those rules, as a traditionally feminine character who's likely to play an important role as a politician later and possibly even be a leader...but it looks like we're going to have to watch her suffer a fair amount more first before that happens.

 

Also Asha Greyjoy *if* she survives is probably the last, best hope for the Iron Born.  If she lives she might guide her people to a better path...if she doesn't then its curtains for any independence for the Iron Islands, (who might be put under the rule of the Riverlands or the North in a bit of poetic justice,) assuming the Islands are even still around at the end at all.

 

Which leads me to my major pet peeve of why Balon's still alive.  I mean even if they don't want to bring Malahide, Gemma, or Pike back this season, they could just have one measly little throw away line about a raven bringing news that Balon Greyjoy had died quite suddenly.  15 seconds tops to explain the current situation, (since I think the Iron Born *will* play a role later on in Season 6) AND it would have confirmed Mel's leech business.

 

On the topic of Jaime, I'm almost glad we don't see him obsessing over possible unfaithfulness on Cersei's part.  I prefer that his estrangement come about because he becomes increasingly disillusioned with the Lannister cause rather than it be simple jealousy. 

Edited May 6, 2015 by Winnief

[Dev F]

Which leads me to my major pet peeve of why Balon's still alive.  I mean even if they don't want to bring Malahide, Gemma, or Pike back this season, they could just have one measly little throw away line about a raven bringing news that Balon Greyjoy had died quite suddenly.  15 seconds tops to explain the current situation, (since I think the Iron Born *will* play a role later on in Season 6) AND it would have confirmed Mel's leech business. 

 

I'm starting to wonder whether they're saving Balon's death until Arya is finished with her Faceless Man training, so she can be the one to throw him off the bridge -- maybe disguised as Yara?

[BlackberryJam]

My prediction on how they make Jaime into a leader in Dorne is through some negotiations and discussions with Doran. I think they can show Jaime having some savvy there. I agree with the above who said Jaime's trebuchet threat was a total bluff. That was Jaime utilizing his terrible reputation to his advantage, just as he's learning to use his golden hand as an advantage.

 

He's becoming the Jaime who wants to be Goldenhand the Just, but it's not going to happen overnight.  I would also rather Jaime be done with Cersei not because she was a faithless whore (paraphrasing Jaime AFfC thoughts), but rather because she is crazy, they have different goals and ideals, she doesn't truly love him and he has fallen out of love with her.  She's going to be punished enough for her "sluttiness" with the Walk, and I have issues with that.  I want Jaime to be done with her for other reasons.

 

However, Bronn was there with the Lancel thing. He knows about the affair. Bronn was there when Jaime had his super romantic goodbye with Brienne. Bronn is going to take the place of Jaime's internal monologue, and that's fine. Bronn is funny. 

 

Jaime's character development in AFfC is almost all through his thoughts, so unless they were going to voiceover that, there is no way we were going to see it in the Riverlands.

 

I want the Riverlands only for some Walder Frey info and the Blackfish. 

 

We have six more episodes for Jaime to get to the point of leaving Cersei to die and running off with Brienne. 

 

As to the sept scene, LH and NCW have both consistently said the scene was not written as rape and LH specifically said she was playing as if Cersei needed Jaime in that moment. So it was a poorly executed piece of crap, but the writers have not made Jaime a rapist. As to the kinslaying, *sigh*, they show has really not made kinslaying the big hairy deal that it is in the books, so I'm not sure that matters.  Jaime is still firmly on the good ship redemption arc, which will probably pass by Tarth again.

 

I think Bronn is a goner, unfortunately. I also think Myrcella will stay in Dorne. 

Edited May 6, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Hecate7]

All of the R+L=J talk here brings up something that has bothered me for a long time.  I seem to be the only person alive who doesn't thing RT is the father - but rather RB. In a show and book series that makes such a big stinking deal about hair color, I think that Jon Snow's dark brown/black hair is the tip-off, no?  And speaking of hair color, and sorry if this is OT, (please tell me where to ask this question )- why has Tyrion's hair color gone from Lannister-gold to dark brown over the seasons? 

 

For the same reason that Shireen Baratheon is blonder than any Lannister. They don't care. They have Ned dying because he read in a book that for a thousand years every Baratheon has had black hair. They have Stannis absolutely convinced Cersei's children HAVE to be Jaime's because they are blonde, and no Baratheon has ever had any color hair besides black. Meanwhile his own daughter is blonder than Jaime's! And although that generated a little buzz for a minute or two, like, whoa, what if she's not his daughter? What if she IS his daughter but Stannis is no more a Baratheon than Joffrey? No--there's no plot point. They just didn't care.

 

Meanwhile Jon Snow has such dark hair it looks more like Robert Baratheon's color than either of the two Baratheon brothers. Oooh, plot point? Don't be silly. Of course it's not. They just didn't care.

 

All of the Lannisters except Cersei have darkened over the seasons. Symbolism? Plot point? No. The actors just got tired of being blonde, and the people in charge of hair and makeup just didn't care. They're from California. They figure nobody is looking that close, nobody is reading the books, and nobody is remembering THAT much dialogue or story, and if they are, well, they need to just get a life, because nobody should be paying THAT much attention. So don't pay any attention to coloring. They certainly aren't.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Hecate7

[that one guy]

middle of a raging war that began in part because he couldn't be bothered to just tell Rickard Stark that he was taking Lyanna as his second queen and hey your grandkids will be in line for the Iron Throne! Robert would then just drown his sorrows in wine and other women.

 

I don't think it's fair to blame Rhaegar for the war. The war didn't start until after he ran off with Lyanna - Lord Rickard and Brandon Stark rode to King's Landing to petition the King for her return, and Aerys had them burned alive. Then he demanded the heads of Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark. THAT'S what started the war. He could have said, "those crazy kids, who knows what they're up to? Please be patient and I'll send Ser Barristan to find out what's going on." Instead, he murdered the Starks for daring to question the action of the crown prince, and Ned reacted the same way Robb did a generation later. Which was predictable if you'd ever met any of the Starks. So the war was definitely Aerys' fault more than Rhaegar's.

[nksarmi]

Hecate, I'd say you are right on the money. Besides, if I recall correctly the show hasn't always cast actors or asked actors to dye their hair according to the book's descriptions.  I think they tried to pay some attention to this detail in season one because Robert's children's hair color was a big clue - they even gave show Cersei a little black haired baby boy that died.  But after that, I think they said "screw it."

[benteen]

I agree, and would actually go further to say that Jaime is the one character I feel that D&D do not understand at all, and they have consistently changed and morphed his character in the transition to Show Jaime in ways that have really harmed the character's complexity. I'm a sucker for redemption arcs, and the Jaime of the books takes a pretty unswerving path toward that redemption from early on in book 1. On the show, however, D&D keep tossing in these weird moments and actions and thoughts (cousin-killing, rape, etc.) that show me that they do not get this character at all, and the current move of his storyline to Dorne from the Riverlands worries me as yet another symptom of that. 

 

This is a great analysis. I hope they move forward on this and keep it in line with his growing realizations in the books.

 

I was really disappointed in the Sand Snakes, and I've been very disappointed in Ellaria, who is such a one-note character at the moment (and it's doubly disappointing as I adore Indira Varma and was looking forward to her moving center stage). I also agree with those who thought Keisha Castle-Hughes was really regrettably weak in both her delivery and in her accent consistency on her big monologue. Although she wielded the spear nicely.

 

I hope the Dorne story ends up being more complex than it's currently shaping up to be -- right now it just looks like more stupid blatant preaching that yes, "an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind." It's not the most subtle moral. But I have hope that it becomes richer and more complex with Jaime and Bronn in the mix with Doran (and hope Bronn survives it, darn it).

 

D and D don't have a good understanding of Jaime.  I recall one of them describing Jaime as a "monster who loves killing" around the time they dug up that unnecessary cousin-killing storyline.

[Constantinople]

If Jon had given in and had sex with her in that moment what would be her next move?

Ye gods, don’t even ask that!  She made a smoke monster that killed Renley when she had sex with Stannis – can you imagine what she could do with some Jon Snow baby batter?

Smoke monster twins, one each for Ramsay and Roose.

 

 

It's good that Lysa kept the Vale out of the war but she definitely wasn't a good ruler and her reasons for not wanting to get involved were basically self motivated. Selyse is another book character who gives off the vibe that she'd be a crap ruler. I agree that it sucks that there aren't positive examples of a competent female ruler.

Are there any positive examples of a competent male ruler?

Robert combines the worst features of Bluto and Flounder

Joffrey is...words fail me.

Tommen might turn out OK, but he's on Maggy's death list and for now he's a cipher.

Ned was OK in the North but too naive for the South.

Robb was a good general, but a fucking idiot. The only question is which of his moves was the stupidest.

Balon is a moron. He attacks, and thus weakens, the only other major player fighting to break-up the Seven Kingdoms. At least his jackass brother who succeed him attacked the South, but I think he's bitten off more than he can chew.

Tywin gets good results short term, but at the cost of alienating the living hell out of everyone in Westeros. It's particularly stupid since he could usually accomplish his goals in less militaristic fashion.

Mace - another cipher.

Doran - TV Doran is too early to tell. So far Book Doran only looks smart in comparison to his stupider progeny, male or female.

Jon - You're doing something wrong if your men kill you, even if Melisandre gives you a do over.

Tyrion - Still needlessly provocative.

[magdalene]

 

I agree, and would actually go further to say that Jaime is the one character I feel that D&D do not understand at all, and they have consistently changed and morphed his character in the transition to Show Jaime in ways that have really harmed the character's complexity. I'm a sucker for redemption arcs, and the Jaime of the books takes a pretty unswerving path toward that redemption from early on in book 1. On the show, however, D&D keep tossing in these weird moments and actions and thoughts (cousin-killing, rape, etc.) that show me that they do not get this character at all, and the current move of his storyline to Dorne from the Riverlands worries me as yet another symptom of that.

I kind of have to agree with that. Which saddens me because I think the books will never be finished and whatever character resolution there is will have to come from the TV Show.  Some of the Jaime stuff on the show makes me wonder whether the show runners have actually read all the books.

[Hecate7]

Meryn Trant is sent to Braavos where someone is very eager to show him some needlework.

/\Love this!

 

If Jon had given in and had sex with her in that moment what would be her next move?

Ye gods, don’t even ask that!  She made a smoke monster that killed Renley when she had sex with Stannis – can you imagine what she could do with some Jon Snow baby batter?  But very glad that she failed in her attempt to seduce him.  And by the way, when is gravity gonna kick in for her, anyway? 

 

also never thought she seemed very interested in Robert from the way everyone talked although we know nothing from her perspective. But if Jon had been Roberts they would have just gotten not so secretly married since that was the plan anyway.

I do think it’s entirely possible that while Robert loved Lyana with all his heart, she may have been more interested in Rhaegar.  So when she becomes pregnant with a child that may be the offspring of either of them, she begs Ned to take the child away and keep him safe – if he’s Rhaegar’s, say, and not Robert’s, you get where she might fear for the child’s life.  OTOH, the reverse could prove to be equally perilous for the baby. 

 

What I can’t remember from the books is when the scene happens where Lyanna begs Ned to take the baby (I think it wasn’t explicit, but hinted at that that’s what she was asking him).  Was this before or after Robert’s Revolt?

 

After. Rheagar was already dead.

[Avaleigh]

Smoke monster twins, one each for Ramsay and Roose.

 

 

Are there any positive examples of a competent male ruler?

Robert combines the worst features of Bluto and Flounder

Joffrey is...words fail me.

Tommen might turn out OK, but he's on Maggy's death list and for now he's a cipher.

Ned was OK in the North but too naive for the South.

Robb was a good general, but a fucking idiot. The only question is which of his moves was the stupidest.

Balon is a moron. He attacks, and thus weakens, the only other major player fighting to break-up the Seven Kingdoms. At least his jackass brother who succeed him attacked the South, but I think he's bitten off more than he can chew.

Tywin gets good results short term, but at the cost of alienating the living hell out of everyone in Westeros. It's particularly stupid since he could usually accomplish his goals in less militaristic fashion.

Mace - another cipher.

Doran - TV Doran is too early to tell. So far Book Doran only looks smart in comparison to his stupider progeny, male or female.

Jon - You're doing something wrong if your men kill you, even if Melisandre gives you a do over.

Tyrion - Still needlessly provocative.

Jeor Mormont? I'd say he qualifies.

 

I think Tywin was a competent ruler. His brutality certainly didn't keep the largest and second richest house in the seven kingdoms from getting into bed with him and his family. We know he was a good Hand. He was far from perfect of course but I don't think his flaws were with ruling. 

 

Doran seems like a positive example to me. I agree that it's too early to say for sure how he'll be on the show but so far I like that he's against Ellaria. 

 

I think Stannis is mostly positive he's just utterly impractical at times. 

 

With Jon...what can I say? His men were wrong. ;-p

 

Asha isn't a ruler but based on her speech at the kingsmoot and a few other qualities I'd say that there is potential there.

 

I pretty much agree with you on the others you named.  

[Elkins]

Are there any positive examples of a competent male ruler?

 

Nope! Which is precisely why I specified that my problem had less to do with the facts of the characters' actions and failings and more to do with the tone that I read in the authorial voice. To me, Jon's failings at Castle Black and Tyrion's failings at King's Landing both seemed to be accorded a kind of dignity in their treatment that I felt was lacking elsewhere. (For whatever it's worth, Theon's absolute failure at life, the universe and everything in the second book would be an example of a male character whose story I felt was similarly handled, so it's not solely a gender division.)  But "authorial tone" is obviously an extremely hazy and subjective thing, and one that only a fool would expect all readers to agree upon.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Elkins

[magdalene]

I agree that Bronn is going to be killed off.  He seems already irritated to be stuck with Jaime and pissed off with him and it seems likely to me  that he will betray Jaime in the near future.  We are getting to the point where even the most entertaining non POV  characters may be on borrowed time because on the show this story universe is now contracting instead of expanding.

[GreyBunny]

Theon's chapters in Dance, especially the Ghost of Winterfell chapter were among the finest in the entire series.  It read like a classic horror story that wouldn't be out of place in a Poe or Bradbury book.  That said, it would be difficult to translate that to screen since so much of it hinged on the reader being privy to Theon's thoughts.

[Brn2bwild]

I guess I'm in the minority in thinking Book Dany isn't a bad ruler, except for her refusal to see the Starks and Baratheons as anything but villains.  Her biggest sin was conquering too quickly and trying to change the order all at once.

 

The show seems to capture this, but it lacks a lot of the book's complexity.  Book Dany tried to employ strategies like holding the nobles' children hostage to prevent the nobles from rising against her, and tried to start other trades to replace the slave trade.  She wasn't succeeding because not only the Meereenese nobles, but also Yunkai enemies, were rising up to stop her, but her instincts seemed to be mostly sound, from what I recall.

[Holmbo]

It doesn't feel like he has progressed much and I believe he is still smitten with Cersei (which is disappointing) but they do have 6 episodes left to get him where he should be - especially if they plan to be more or less done with book 5 by the end of this season.

Where do you think he Should be at the end of this season? Do mean just in terms of his feelings for Cersei or his character overall?

I'm just curious to what people see Jaimes arc pointing at. He's one of the characters I think will survive the series but I'm not sure where he will end up in the end.

[GreyBunny]

I want to see the scene where Cersei begs him to help her and he blows her off, either in person or crumpling up her ravenmail.

 

At the end of the season I want him to realize that she's more trouble than she's worth and he wants to move on.

Edited May 7, 2015 by GreyBunny

[ElizaD]

Where do you think he Should be at the end of this season? Do mean just in terms of his feelings for Cersei or his character overall?

I'm just curious to what people see Jaimes arc pointing at. He's one of the characters I think will survive the series but I'm not sure where he will end up in the end.

 

Despite how disillusioned Book Jaime has become with Cersei, I don't think he can or will want to survive after he kills her, which is what things are pointing at IMO. The Jaime/Bronn talk seemed like heavy foreshadowing: Jaime will die in the arms of the woman he loves (at least metaphorically if not literally because he'll die as a result of/after killing her), but Cersei won't want the same thing because she'll be fighting him to stay alive. Dany's show vision of the ruined throne room and now Cersei saying she'll burn cities if Dorne harms Myrcella could support the theory that she'll succeed where Aerys failed and burn King's Landing, which will cause Jaime to kill her.

 

On the show, Jaime hasn't started rejecting Cersei and it feels like at most he could reject her plan for Myrcella after seeing that she's happy with Trystane, but I still expect that he'll get Doran's permission to take Myrcella back to KL. Because of the likely timing, it's possible that Show Cersei won't have an opportunity to send for him before the walk of shame, in which case he wouldn't have that chance to reject her either. Show Jaime's disillusionment will probably be due to whatever bad things are likely to happen to Tommen/Myrcella in season 6 and Cersei's reaction to them.

[Holmbo]

Despite how disillusioned Book Jaime has become with Cersei, I don't think he can or will want to survive after he kills her, which is what things are pointing at IMO. The Jaime/Bronn talk seemed like heavy foreshadowing: Jaime will die in the arms of the woman he loves (at least metaphorically if not literally because he'll die as a result of/after killing her), but Cersei won't want the same thing because she'll be fighting him to stay alive. Dany's show vision of the ruined throne room and now Cersei saying she'll burn cities if Dorne harms Myrcella could support the theory that she'll succeed where Aerys failed and burn King's Landing, which will cause Jaime to kill her.

On the show, Jaime hasn't started rejecting Cersei and it feels like at most he could reject her plan for Myrcella after seeing that she's happy with Trystane, but I still expect that he'll get Doran's permission to take Myrcella back to KL. Because of the likely timing, its possible that Show Cersei won't have an opportunity to send for him before the walk of shame, in which case he wouldn't have that chance to reject her either. Show Jaime's disillusionment will probably be due to whatever bad things are likely to happen to Tommen/Myrcella in season 6 and Cersei's reaction to them.

Interesting. It would certainly be compelling if Cersei went all mad king the second and Jaime had to kill her to stop her. If Cersei wins her trial and then somehow Tommen and Myrcella are killed or even just in the danger of being killed I could see her ordering Frankgregor to burn down kingslanding.

I'm still betting on Jaime living though. He's one of the few characters in the book who's moving in the right direction of character development. I think that means something for his future.

I wrote in an earlier post that I think on the show Jaime will reject Cersei in person. If we assume the dornish plot will end about the same way it does in the book he'll eventually be heading back to KL with Myrcella Trystane and some sand snakes and would be likely to get there before Cersei's trial. During his time in Dorne we'll most likely see him reflecting over their relationship and when he returns and Cersei is all loving towards him again because now she needs him that will give him cause to hesitate I think.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Holmbo

[Shanna]

I guess I'm in the minority in thinking Book Dany isn't a bad ruler, except for her refusal to see the Starks and Baratheons as anything but villains. Her biggest sin was conquering too quickly and trying to change the order all at once.

The show seems to capture this, but it lacks a lot of the book's complexity. Book Dany tried to employ strategies like holding the nobles' children hostage to prevent the nobles from rising against her, and tried to start other trades to replace the slave trade. She wasn't succeeding because not only the Meereenese nobles, but also Yunkai enemies, were rising up to stop her, but her instincts seemed to be mostly sound, from what I recall.

The meerenese chapters are hard to read but I think they are realistic. Dany is not a bad ruler necessarily, and it especially has nothing to do with being female. I think if she had roled in as ruler of her own lands and people she was familiar with, it might have gone smoothly. If she had just taken over and not tried to change all the customs it might have gone smoothly. But what she is trying to do is not easy and that is all this story says to me. No other person is trying to do what she is doing, rule another culture, except maybe mance? And he had fear of the white walkers to help him.

All the rulers in westeros are flailing and they are not trying to do anything so difficult.

[mac123x]

All of the Lannisters except Cersei have darkened over the seasons. Symbolism? Plot point? No. The actors just got tired of being blonde, and the people in charge of hair and makeup just didn't care. They're from California. They figure nobody is looking that close, nobody is reading the books, and nobody is remembering THAT much dialogue or story, and if they are, well, they need to just get a life, because nobody should be paying THAT much attention. So don't pay any attention to coloring. They certainly aren't.

 

Cercei's hair has stayed the same since LH wears a wig.  I think NCW wore a wig to begin with, but once he returned to Kings Landing and got a shorter haircut that it's the actor's natural hair and color.  I can sort of forgive that because I know several people with sandy-blond hair that only looks blond when they grow it out.  I think PD still wears a wig but they've gone darker with it because he's grown a real beard, and they went with a wig to match.

 

The ones that really bugged me were the Sand Snakes.  In the books they are wildly different, but on the show they looked too much alike, especially Nym and Obara.  It would have been an easy way for the show to distinguish the three actors.  Now they just blend into each other.  I guess we're supposed to tell them apart because Nym has a pony tail and Obara dresses like a dominatrix.

[that one guy]

 

I guess I'm in the minority in thinking Book Dany isn't a bad ruler, except for her refusal to see the Starks and Baratheons as anything but villains.  Her biggest sin was conquering too quickly and trying to change the order all at once.

 

Book Dany is sort of like Napoleon. He was a "bad ruler" in terms of always being at war and never effectively securing the peace with himself in charge. But his short reign transformed Europe, sweeping aside the last vestiges of the medieval order and the Holy Roman Empire and bringing about the modern world order. I predict Dany's rule will be the same in ASOIAF. The entire world will be permanently transformed by her actions, but she's unlikely to have a long, happy, peaceful reign at any point.

 

Where do I think Jamie should be at the end of the season? Dead. I don't think they will, but I think they should cut him down in place of Oakhart, if only to see LH's Cersei react to the news.

Edited May 7, 2015 by that one guy

[nksarmi]

Where do you think he Should be at the end of this season? Do mean just in terms of his feelings for Cersei or his character overall?

I'm just curious to what people see Jaimes arc pointing at. He's one of the characters I think will survive the series but I'm not sure where he will end up in the end.

I'm not sure where I think Jamie is headed in the books.  I could see GRRM going down two roads with Jamie.

 

He could be the vile character who pushed Bran from a window because of his lustful act who turns full circle to being a force of peace and diplomacy.  The spoiled son of a powerful lord who discovers that he cares about the common people.  He could go from being a kingslayer to a queenmaker if he crosses paths with Dany and decides she is worthy to lead - and he would know given how many bad leaders he has seen since he killed the mad king.  He could go from having an incestuous lover to falling in love with another woman and having children that would further the Lannerster house. 

 

On the other hand, he could fulfill the prophesy and kill Cersei and then kill himself dying in her arms.

 

Or he could just decide to run away with Brie and live a very quiet life letting the whole of Westerous think he is dead.

 

But the big things is that I expect him by the end of this season to be very, very different because that is what I felt happened in the books.

Edited May 7, 2015 by nksarmi

[WearyTraveler]

Every time someone calls Brienne "Brie" I think of cheese. LOL!!!

[BlackberryJam]

I'm the same way with Brie and Brienne.

That was Nikolaj Coster-Waldau's own hair in...all seasons. They may have lightened it some, but it was all his. He actually tells the story of playing a practical joke on the showrunners and emailing them that he'd shaved his head.

I also think it's Peter Dinklage's hair because he's complained before of having to get highlights.

They hair has not been consistent for the men and, let's be real here, the wigs on Emilia Clarke and Lena Headey suck, especially Emilia's.

Edited May 8, 2015 by BlackberryJam