Family Ties: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

KnoxForPres · January 9, 2019

On 1/6/2019 at 3:13 PM, DeLurker said:

@KnoxForPres - that is some shocker. So sorry for all of you. Do you live close? Because when my friend went through cancer treatment, she was most grateful for what her family and friends did to keep her kids’ lives as normal as possible during that time.

Yes- not only local but able to work from home at her house if needed . Which has been awesome. We binged watched Dirty John these last two days.

The guy won’t give you a ring hits a hit real oh shit for me- so I’ll watch and see what happens I’m there!

BookWoman56 · January 9, 2019

On 1/7/2019 at 8:52 AM, DeLurker said:

...In mid-November he told Gollum they weren't working out for a variety of reasons and she needed to move out. She asked to stay until after Thanksgiving and he agreed. Then it was after Christmas. Then after New Year's.

...He sent me a text last night with the message "She's gone" - we really haven't spoken about their relationship. I sent him an email this morning saying basically do not keep in touch with her for a while. It will give her hope that there is a chance to reunite and if there is none, then it just gives her false hope even if that is not your intention. Tell her that you won't be responding to calls or texts for a while so there is a clean break.

We will see if this is the final chapter...

At least your brother finally got out of passive mode and took some action, even if it was in slow motion. Agree that he shouldn't respond to calls or texts; if she managed to leave other items at his house, he should just pack them up and ship them to her with no more than a note that says, "I'm returning some items you left behind." If she left some of her electronics behind (very noticeable things), then it wouldn't surprise me if she left some other items behind as well, to give her an excuse to stop by. Which is the kind of strategy I'd expect from someone adolescent to maybe mid-20s, but not from someone her age.

On 1/7/2019 at 9:04 AM, theredhead77 said:

Hopefully.

As a general statement (not just related to your family, delurker) no one is getting any younger. If party A wants marriage while party B has no interest in marriage and there is no compromise with legal domestic partnership paperwork, party A is going to have to decide if this is the relationship for them. It's none of my business if people live together without marriage, get married but live apart, file domestic partnership (or the state equivalent) paperwork for the legal protections. You do you. But FFS, don't waste years of peoples time if there is an irreconcilable difference in where the relationship is going. I have friends in all of the above situations and I'm only annoyed at the one who gave the ring but really doesn't want to get married (for a variety of valid concerns on their part) but they own a house together and they've been together for nearly a decade.

I'd have to put the responsibility at roughly a 50/50 split. If you're the person who wants marriage and the other person makes it very clear that's not going to happen, then you owe it to yourself to move on rather than hang around in hopes that the other person will change his/her mind. Either that, or decide that you still want the relationship as it currently exists, given that it's not going to turn into marriage. If you're the other person, who doesn't want marriage and you've made it very clear on several occasions that you are not going to marry this person, then make a final definitive statement about it, tell the other person that if he/she wants marriage, then it needs to be to someone else, and allow a certain amount of time (maybe 3-6 months) for the person to take the initiative to end the relationship. But after that point, then yes, FFS go ahead and end the relationship yourself. Just the fact that you're willing to maintain the status quo is leading the other person to delude himself/herself that sooner or later you'll cave and agree to get married. And I understand that it's tempting to just let things slide, because presumably you enjoy the relationship but just don't want marriage. But you're not doing yourself or the other person any favors by maintaining the status quo. Maybe a year or two down the road, you and this person can be friends, but the other person needs the emotional and physical distance to move on.

DeLurker · January 9, 2019

@KnoxForPres - so glad you are close by!

As for the Gollum update, Sunday night about 2 AM he realizes there is someone in bed with him. They talked for a bit, but then he sent her on her way. He has a numeric door lock and didn’t change the code so she let herself in. He now uses a sleep apnea machine so didn’t hear anything. He’s hella freaked now because he even brought up someone we grew up with who was stabbed in the chest by his wife while he was passed out (it is a Florida Man story).

I had a friend who moved in with her boyfriend when we were 27. She told him before she moved in that if they weren’t engaged by a year, than she’d be moving out as she wasn’t interested in the sorta-but not really status of living together long term and if he already knew he didn’t want to get married, tell her now before she moved in.

I really liked the simplicity and directness she took.

Sun-Bun · January 9, 2019

51 minutes ago, DeLurker said:

I had a friend who moved in with her boyfriend when we were 27. She told him before she moved in that if they weren’t engaged by a year, than she’d be moving out as she wasn’t interested in the sorta-but not really status of living together long term and if he already knew he didn’t want to get married, tell her now before she moved in.

I really liked the simplicity and directness she took.

I like it too, because that’s the *exact* same approach I had with my own boyfriend when we moved in together after a year into our relationship—-I moved in with him earlier than I’d expected because I was between roommate situations and he’d been asking me for months to consider moving in with him, but I initially didn’t want to just be a live-in girlfriend when I really wanted to be his wife in several years. Fortunately he also appreciated my directness and countered that he never would’ve invited me to move in with him had he not had the intention of eventually marrying me.

More people need to be that direct with their partners and it ticks me off the way some folks refuse to address what they *really* want out of their relationships. Life is too damned short to waste your best years on partners who don’t appreciate you and your expectations.

I’ve had way too many girlfriends move in and out of homes with different boyfriends; I watched several of them waste years of their lives waiting on these relationships to lead to marriage. Watching those bad patterns around me made me a bit more gun-shy about shacking up with past boyfriends; I refused to move in with any of them until I knew it was seriously leading to eventual marriage. Women in particular need to quit pussy-footing around and be honest about their goals after they’re a year into a romantic relationship—-if there’s any hesitation from the other person by that point, it’s time to cut one’s losses and move on.

Bastet · January 9, 2019

On 1/7/2019 at 7:04 AM, theredhead77 said:

As a general statement (not just related to your family, delurker) no one is getting any younger. If party A wants marriage while party B has no interest in marriage and there is no compromise with legal domestic partnership paperwork, party A is going to have to decide if this is the relationship for them. It's none of my business if people live together without marriage, get married but live apart, file domestic partnership (or the state equivalent) paperwork for the legal protections. You do you. But FFS, don't waste years of peoples time if there is an irreconcilable difference in where the relationship is going.

Yes. And when it's a woman hoping to eventually marry and a man dragging his feet in perpetuity, we as a society are quick to dismiss the woman as a delusional clinger, but when we untangle those relationships we know details of, often it turns out the reluctant male has done a number of things she - and not unreasonably - perceived as potential for a changed attitude given time, given the way they contradict the "I don't want to get married" statements. If you don't want it, ever, regardless of how things progress - and, bless, because I never did - make that clear by both word and deed.

Each party has to understand for themselves what that marriage contract/other relationship agreement in lieu of one means to them and their understanding of/comfort with the relationship and take it from there. But no one can do that if both parties aren't honest with themselves and clear with their partner about their current understandings and future desires.

On 1/5/2019 at 1:32 PM, KnoxForPres said:

This is so unexpected. We all thought this would be routine and I’m desperately trying to repeat “She Will be fine” in my head countered by driving around and having moments of terror.

I don’t really need responses as much I need to get out I’m scared and very hopeful. The general vibe is “positivity! Prayers!” Which I agree with but this just knocked the wind out of me and I am scared.

Of course you are! Cancer strikes fear in the heart, especially when preceded by the word "ovarian." The wait for biopsy results is agonizing, whether they are yours or a loved one's (been there, more than once, for both), and you just have to slog your way through. There's an extra layer of "Wait, what?" difficulty in wrapping your mind around a cancer diagnosis, just waiting to learn more when you didn't fear it as a possibility to begin with.

Don't try to lull yourself into any false sense of security if others are putting it out there but you're not fully feeling it; allow yourself each one of the myriad emotions you are feeling, while acknowledging this battle is primarily your sister's and thus tailoring your outward responses to her cues and then finding outlets for your own emotions where they differ. There's no set battle plan for any of you; just do the best you can, and the love that motivates you will be appreciated, even if you occasionally err and say/do something that happens to strike her wrong based on her own complicated feelings of the day. And not hiding entirely, while not at all focusing on, your fear, leaves open the possibility for her to, in a moment when she needs it, come to you and say, "I'm thinking positive, but goddamn I'm scared."

I wish the best for her.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Bastet

BookWoman56 · January 9, 2019

1 hour ago, Sun-Bun said:

More people need to be that direct with their partners and it ticks me off the way some folks refuse to address what they *really* want out of their relationships. Life is too damned short to waste your best years on partners who don’t appreciate you and your expectations.

I’ve had way too many girlfriends move in and out of homes with different boyfriends; I watched several of them waste years of their lives waiting on these relationships to lead to marriage. Watching those bad patterns around me made me a bit more gun-shy about shacking up with past boyfriends; I refused to move in with any of them until I knew it was seriously leading to eventual marriage. Women in particular need to quit pussy-footing around and be honest about their goals after they’re a year into a romantic relationship—-if there’s any hesitation from the other person by that point, it’s time to cut one’s losses and move on.

I have mixed feelings about these situations, perhaps because my own experience and motivations are very different. To me the whole point of living with a romantic partner is to enjoy being together, and also to see if that person is a good fit as a short-term partner or a long-term partner, not to move in together on the assumption that if you do so, you must have the intention to eventually get married. I lived with a few different boyfriends with whom I never reached the point of wanting a long-term relationship, much less the legal status of marriage. I don't consider that to be a waste of my time or theirs, because in those situations, I learned a lot about myself and what characteristics/habits I could and could not adapt to or tolerate. And I don't think the mismatch of expectations is confined to situations where the couple is cohabiting, either. For me, it ultimately comes down to this: if the relationship is going well, then both people have feelings and expectations that align with each other. They may both decide they want a long-term relationship, which may or may not include marriage and possibly having children. They may decide they just want to have a good time as long as it lasts, with zero intention for a long-term relationship. The problem arises when one person has feelings/expectations that don't align with the other person's. And no matter what those specific feelings and expectations are, what's critical is that the people involved be candid with each other and accept the other person's statements at face value. So, if a guy says he never wants to get married, and you're hellbent on getting married, then move on. If you're a guy who wants kids and the woman says she wants none, don't assume that you can change her mind.

All that said, though, I really wish society as a whole did not place such emphasis on marriage, Particularly when it comes to women, there is still very much a perception that if a woman never marries, she is to be pitied because "no man ever loved her enough to marry her." If a man never marries, the assumption is often that he just doesn't want to settle down with one person. Especially as I get older, I see minimal value in the idea of marriage. It's not some magic bullet that means your relationship is immune to problems, nor does it mean you will never be alone again (in the sense of not having a romantic partner) unless you plan to die at the exact same time as your spouse. Nor do I think that the lack of a romantic partner is a disaster. Some of us are more comfortable without the encumbrances of a full-time partner. At this point in my life, I can look back and say I regret the two marriages I had, not in the sense of the relationships themselves, but in the very real hassle of extricating myself from them via the court system. I cannot envision myself ever marrying again, unless it is a completely unconventional marriage in which both of us are free to have other sex partners, and we spend only one weekend a month under the same roof. There are people who want and need to be in a committed relationship in which they share a lot of time and activities with a partner, live in the same household, etc. I am not one of those people.

ETA: I've also met way too many people, both men and women, who obsess over getting married to the point where it very much sounds as if they want the status of being married, and it doesn't matter that much to whom. Also, @DeLurker, I hope your brother changes his key code. I would be both livid and horrified if an ex who had just moved out within the last couple of days sneaked back into my house and into my actual bed in the middle of the night.

Edited January 9, 2019 by BookWoman56

theredhead77 · January 9, 2019

I am in my early 40s, never married and would like to get married. It's been a long time since I've had a LTR (or a date) but when I do start dating again it will be with the intent of marriage down the road. I think at this age and life experience I don't need to be dating someone for 4-5 years to know if they are the are the one. I have a list of 'requirements' (active, present father, fully functional adult, overall nice human being and someone who doesn't hate all their exs /blame all their exs for the end of the relationship (those are serious red flags)

AgentRXS · January 9, 2019

@DeLurker I hope your brother is considering a restraining order. That is frightening and if it were me, I'd probably be looking at a "Stand Your Ground" case right about now. You have to be completely unhinged to enter someone's property in the middle of the night unannounced, I don't care how recently the relationship ended. Her bus is clearly not running on all 4 wheels.

emma675 · January 9, 2019

theredhead77, we are very much the same, right down to ages! If you have any luck finding someone, let me know how you did it, lol!

delurker, that is some Fatal Attraction level stuff! That's terrifying.

Sun-Bun · January 9, 2019

10 hours ago, BookWoman56 said:

All that said, though, I really wish society as a whole did not place such emphasis on marriage, Particularly when it comes to women, there is still very much a perception that if a woman never marries, she is to be pitied because "no man ever loved her enough to marry her." If a man never marries, the assumption is often that he just doesn't want to settle down with one person. Especially as I get older, I see minimal value in the idea of marriage.

Oh I agree with you there, @BookWoman56! Not everyone wants to get married, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, despite how much society may say otherwise; it was always a hope of mine simply because I personally find the act of marriage very romantic and worth pursuing for the right reasons. And as a Childfree person, I feel as strongly about how society shouldn’t push parenthood as you do about how society doesn’t need to push marriage.

But I totally get why and appreciate that marriage isn’t the be all/end all for others out there. Hey, I think some people just want to get married for the ceremony and status; I didn’t care about any of that because I just cared about someone loving me enough to back our union up legally *and* spiritually.

It just upsets me when one person in the relationship wants something when the other person doesn’t; stringing someone along for a long time just because one person would rather not be alone is simply selfish and cruel.

BookWoman56 · January 9, 2019

15 minutes ago, Sun-Bun said:

It just upsets me when one person in the relationship wants something when the other person doesn’t; stringing someone along for a long time just because one person would rather not be alone is simply selfish and cruel.

Absolutely. I ended the last LTR I was in because the other person’s expectations changed. We had agreed initially that neither of us was looking for marriage to each other but enjoyed being together. We were together for a few years, and then he began dropping way too many hints that he wanted marriage. I saw the writing on the wall and convinced him he needed to go back to grad school to get his doctorate so he could advance in his career, and then helped him through the application process to do so. It took about 6 months but we had an amicable parting with minimal hurt feelings on both sides.

In terms of family, I am grateful that my family members have accepted my single status. My remaining siblings are all married and have realized that I have zero interest in getting married again. Even my 90-year-old mother has accepted that I prefer not being in a committed relationship. That was definitely not the case when I was younger. But I’ve encountered lots of families who put extreme pressure on their kids to get married and also have children. Not a fan of that attitude at all.

PRgal · January 9, 2019

1 hour ago, BookWoman56 said:

Absolutely. I ended the last LTR I was in because the other person’s expectations changed. We had agreed initially that neither of us was looking for marriage to each other but enjoyed being together. We were together for a few years, and then he began dropping way too many hints that he wanted marriage. I saw the writing on the wall and convinced him he needed to go back to grad school to get his doctorate so he could advance in his career, and then helped him through the application process to do so. It took about 6 months but we had an amicable parting with minimal hurt feelings on both sides.

In terms of family, I am grateful that my family members have accepted my single status. My remaining siblings are all married and have realized that I have zero interest in getting married again. Even my 90-year-old mother has accepted that I prefer not being in a committed relationship. That was definitely not the case when I was younger. But I’ve encountered lots of families who put extreme pressure on their kids to get married and also have children. Not a fan of that attitude at all.

Some of that is cultural too. Kids live at home with their parents until they're marry (you only leave if you're going to school somewhere else or if you find a job in another town), and parents really don't want their 35 year old kid at home...anywhere in the world! As for kids, again, cultural. Usually, it's about carrying on the family name. Before my son was born, my dad asked if we were going to use both last names (mine and my husband's). I think he wanted the name carried on (I use both names too). Luckily, both my husband and I were game with that, so my son shares MY last name (i.e. double, no hyphen) rather than just my husband's.

DeLurker · January 9, 2019

I'm sure I've said this before, but in the younger days of DeLurker, Mom would occasionally ask in a kidding-not kidding way when I was going to get married so she could have more grandchildren. She stopped asking when I responded "I don't need to get married for you to have a grandchild - I'll get right on that!".

My ex's family had a tradition of using maiden or family names as middle names, so my daughter's middle name is my last name.

4 hours ago, emma675 said:

delurker, that is some Fatal Attraction level stuff! That's terrifying.

Indeed it is. It did freak him out since he's always been very able to handle himself in a fight and he has always been super alert to what is going on around him - he's got a lifetime of self-confidence (and deservedly so) that he can handle himself. So to be totally caught off guard and in such intimate quarters is a huge blow to the ego. Granted, he's getting older (mid 50s), he's physically/mentally/emotionally exhausted because she's been pushing for probably a year on the marriage and other head games (granted, he has been clear they aren't getting married but unclear on how fractured they are: See fighting constantly, packed bags and then getting a dog together). He's asked his son to come over and change the code so hopefully it is done now.

BookWoman56 · January 10, 2019

13 hours ago, AgentRXS said:

@DeLurker I hope your brother is considering a restraining order. That is frightening and if it were me, I'd probably be looking at a "Stand Your Ground" case right about now. You have to be completely unhinged to enter someone's property in the middle of the night unannounced, I don't care how recently the relationship ended. Her bus is clearly not running on all 4 wheels.

Any sympathy I might have felt for "Gollum," for having foolishly stayed in a relationship in hopes of marriage even though she'd been told several times no marriage was forthcoming, was completely negated by this act. I can see where @DeLurker's brother might have sent mixed signals, although to me, flatly saying you're never getting married again should be the definitive statement on the subject, regardless of other ambiguous signals such as getting a pet together. But when an ex, even someone who's been an ex for less than a day or two, sneaks into your house in the freaking middle of the night and gets in bed with you, it's time to change all the locks and think about getting one of those security systems that includes video cameras, so as to have proof if needed (and I hope it won't be) of her trying to get into the house again. If it were me, I'd scour the house looking for any possessions she might have left behind as a pretext for needing access to the house, and send them to her via a delivery service that has tracking information, to confirm receipt. And even if no possessions are there to be mailed, I'd look into a restraining order, or at the very least, send a letter via certified mail explaining in no uncertain terms that she is not to enter the house again.

I do wonder WTF she was thinking. Did she somehow delude herself that because she'd been gone for a day or two, the guy would miss her so much he'd suddenly realize, upon waking up to her in his bed, that he wanted her to always be there with him and so they should get married? I can't really follow the thought process here, probably because I'm not completely BSC.

DeLurker · January 10, 2019

11 hours ago, BookWoman56 said:

I can't really follow the thought process here, probably because I'm not completely BSC.

I've tended to keep quiet and mostly listen, although I do occasionally kid him he is trying to one-up me on the relationship dysfunction scale (and that is seriously saying something), but having lived through the relentless badgering on fill-in-the-blank I know why it is done - to wear you down until you give in to just get some peace. But someone who is willing to do this will never be satisfied once they get fill-in-the-blank. After that, it will be on to the next thing, then the next thing, then the next thing... It is abusive behavior.

KnoxForPres · January 11, 2019

On 1/9/2019 at 12:09 AM, Bastet said:

Yes. And when it's a woman hoping to eventually marry and a man dragging his feet in perpetuity, we as a society are quick to dismiss the woman as a delusional clinger, but when we untangle those relationships we know details of, often it turns out the reluctant male has done a number of things she - and not unreasonably - perceived as potential for a changed attitude given time, given the way they contradict the "I don't want to get married" statements. If you don't want it, ever, regardless of how things progress - and, bless, because I never did - make that clear by both word and deed.

Each party has to understand for themselves what that marriage contract/other relationship agreement in lieu of one means to them and their understanding of/comfort with the relationship and take it from there. But no one can do that if both parties aren't honest with themselves and clear with their partner about their current understandings and future desires.

Of course you are! Cancer strikes fear in the heart, especially when preceded by the word "ovarian." The wait for biopsy results is agonizing, whether they are yours or a loved one's (been there, more than once, for both), and you just have to slog your way through. There's an extra layer of "Wait, what?" difficulty in wrapping your mind around a cancer diagnosis, just waiting to learn more when you didn't fear it as a possibility to begin with.

Don't try to lull yourself into any false sense of security if others are putting it out there but you're not fully feeling it; allow yourself each one of the myriad emotions you are feeling, while acknowledging this battle is primarily your sister's and thus tailoring your outward responses to her cues and then finding outlets for your own emotions where they differ. There's no set battle plan for any of you; just do the best you can, and the love that motivates you will be appreciated, even if you occasionally err and say/do something that happens to strike her wrong based on her own complicated feelings of the day. And not hiding entirely, while not at all focusing on, your fear, leaves open the possibility for her to, in a moment when she needs it, come to you and say, "I'm thinking positive, but goddamn I'm scared."

I wish the best for her.

Such wise, kind, and thoughtful words. Thank you. So much. This board has been active so anyone and all who said such kind words- thank you.

On task I can speak for myself. I’m 39 will be 40 in May dating a guy going on 3 years now. I’m never married, no kids. He’s divorced once - no kids. He’s 38.

What I find interesting is I get outside pressure (geographically I’m in the South) of “have you looked at rings!” No, however he has brought that up. I find myself equal excited and hesitant so I don’t push it. I suppose I should.

He has a very nice truck and in the last year has put easy 15 grand into an “off-road vehicle” that be bought. I felt a bit slighted. This has involved hours of research, message board talk etc. I find myself wishing he he had that gusto for me he does a vehicle.

And to bring it full circle he’s set to go on a camping trip with a new found friend (who’s 23- sweet little kid I’ve met) but this trip ventures into January 21st when we learn if my sister can breathe a sigh of relief they got it all- or not. I’d like him to be with me but he doesn’t seem to get that. I’ve done the hinting a normal person would and can tell he’s not getting it.

Maybe it’s a girl thing? I feel like if his brother of all our same age had that I’d want to be there.

More I post here I realize it’s just like a way for me to get shit out. And I’m grateful for it.

Moose135 · January 11, 2019

54 minutes ago, KnoxForPres said:

And to bring it full circle he’s set to go on a camping trip with a new found friend (who’s 23- sweet little kid I’ve met)

Am I reading this right? He's going on a camping trip with a 23 year old woman, without you? It may be harmless, but that raises red flags for me.

KnoxForPres · January 11, 2019

23 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

Am I reading this right? He's going on a camping trip with a 23 year old woman, without you? It may be harmless, but that raises red flags for me.

No- sorry , male all are straight.

Edited January 11, 2019 by KnoxForPres

DeLurker · January 11, 2019

@KnoxForPres - putting aside any relationship definition stuff right now, maybe just tell him that you could use his support that weekend because this is a bfd and your nerves are going to be raw by then. He might be thinking his presence would be intrusive at such a personal time too.

A lot of guys don’t get hints - some just aren’t wired that way. Having 4 older brothers, I’ve heard them fuss repeatedly over the years saying “WHY can’t she just say what she means?”

KnoxForPres · January 11, 2019

9 minutes ago, DeLurker said:

@KnoxForPres - putting aside any relationship definition stuff right now, maybe just tell him that you could use his support that weekend because this is a bfd and your nerves are going to be raw by then. He might be thinking his presence would be intrusive at such a personal time too.

A lot of guys don’t get hints - some just aren’t wired that way. Having 4 older brothers, I’ve heard them fuss repeatedly over the years saying “WHY can’t she just say what she means?”

Thank you. I took your advice and told him please be back by the the 21st because we will have the party of all times or it will be hard but I need and want you here and he said he will be back by then! He got it. Thanks @DeLurker

theredhead77 · January 11, 2019

14 hours ago, DeLurker said:

A lot of guys don’t get hints - some just aren’t wired that way. Having 4 older brothers, I’ve heard them fuss repeatedly over the years saying “WHY can’t she just say what she means?”

Heh. I've had so many arguments with platonic male friends who said "you just need to tell me what you want". I think the same goes for women too "just tell me what you want", but we're so used to hinting around that we pick up on hints other women drop.

14 hours ago, KnoxForPres said:

I took your advice and told him please be back by the the 21st because we will have the party of all times or it will be hard but I need and want you here and he said he will be back by then! He got it.

Good!

In regards to the trucks and not a ring, if marriage is something you want, and you want it with him, a 'where is this relationship going' conversation should probably happen soon-ish.

BuyMoreAndSave · January 12, 2019

Hoarder MIL update: today I went into her room with my husband to look for printer paper and...the hoarding is even worse than I thought it was. The room has two closets and both are packed top to bottom with crap.

One of the closets is filled with papers that my husband brought from her hoarder house for her to sort and shred. He brought them months ago. She has not even touched them. She has literally nothing else to do all day so there is no excuse except that she doesn't feel like doing it. I asked my husband what he thinks of that and he said "she probably forgot they were there." The closet door is open and she can see into it directly from her bed...there's no way she forgot. Then he said "I'll start going through them with her." I said "That's exactly the problem, why the hell do YOU, yet again, have to be the one to clean up her mess, when she is perfectly capable of doing it? It's because she acts helpless until the situation gets to a crisis point and you have to step in. She likes having you do things for her. And she likes living in squalor and being surrounded by unnecessary crap."

Before she even moved in I predicted that she would hoard and then when she moved out, would leave 80 to 90% of the crap for us to deal with. She has done that pretty much every time she moved with us and her relatives in Florida. He swore up and down that it wouldn't happen. Now it's all playing out exactly as I predicted. There is no way she can fit all that stuff into a car, and she isn't going to hire a moving truck for 1000 miles because she is cheap. That's not even counting her bed and exercise bike which she will definitely leave here and will be taking up limited space now.

I'm just going to start going in there when she isn't home and disposing of random items as a rebellion.

Sun-Bun · January 13, 2019

21 hours ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

I'm just going to start going in there when she isn't home and disposing of random items as a rebellion.

Yes!!! Do that, @BuyMoreAndSave; not only will it make you feel better, but there’s a 80-95% chance she won’t even notice anything missing either. It’s a win-win for you both, really—-just make sure it isn’t too obvious and just gradually chink away at those annoying piles of junk. If she mentions anything missing(she likely won’t), just play dumb and say something like, “You have so much stuff you don’t even remember where you put it all, huh?” My husband is a bit of a book hoarder(never mind that with most books he’ll read one for a few chapters then never pick it up to read again), so I’ve had to do that myself just for my own sanity and to not overload our small library. Works like a charm and Goodwill is a regular stop for me and those damned books.

And @KnoxForPres, it’s *definitely* time to nail down some marital expectations with your guy if that’s what your wanting. Make sure it’s a relaxed moment and he’s not feeling browbeaten at all—-just let him know it’s a new year, you’re hoping to start firming up major life plans for your future together, and give him a time frame for when you’d like to see an engagement occur. If he can’t handle that, well, you might want to reevaluate some things.

Like I’ll never forget having that chat with my husband at a party, of all things; we’d lived together for a year, been together nearly three years, and I’d already let him know that marriage was definitely my ultimate expectation back when I moved in( I gave him a 3-5 year window originally). My grandmother was in poor health by then and I told him over our second or third glass of wine that I was hoping she’d be able to see us finally married and settled...and that I wanted to be official by the time he hit 50 and I hit 35. He appreciated the honesty and said he’d already been looking at rings. A year later we got engaged and married at a simple beachside ceremony in the islands.

You gotta be straight up and honest with your partner though. Don’t ever be afraid to let them know what you want.

BuyMoreAndSave · January 14, 2019

On 1/13/2019 at 3:39 PM, Sun-Bun said:

Yes!!! Do that, @BuyMoreAndSave; not only will it make you feel better, but there’s a 80-95% chance she won’t even notice anything missing either. It’s a win-win for you both, really—-just make sure it isn’t too obvious and just gradually chink away at those annoying piles of junk. If she mentions anything missing(she likely won’t), just play dumb and say something like, “You have so much stuff you don’t even remember where you put it all, huh?” My husband is a bit of a book hoarder(never mind that with most books he’ll read one for a few chapters then never pick it up to read again), so I’ve had to do that myself just for my own sanity and to not overload our small library. Works like a charm and Goodwill is a regular stop for me and those damned books.

The only reason why I wouldn't do this is because she leaves the bird out of the cage in her room all day while she's at the senior center and if I go in there, the bird will attack me :( I do this with my husband's stuff sometimes though because otherwise he will keep junk mail and socks and shirts with massive holes in them and stuff like that forever. He isn't a hoarder because he doesn't have unhealthy attachment to stuff (in fact he loses things constantly, like he literally has lost dozens of items of clothing at the gym and work somehow...and he lost the $25 Hydro Flask I bought him at work too....), but since he never learned how to clean or what "clean" is, he has a lot of clutter blindness and he lets things go if left to his own devices since he doesn't care if it's clean or dirty. He doesn't notice or care if I declutter as long as I don't make him do it.

Speaking of which, today we have an unexpected visitor. My husband's cousin is visiting NYC from Florida and he came over on two hours' notice. When my MIL was living in the hoarder house she would have to spend hours cleaning before guests and it would still look like shit. I don't know if she felt embarrassment about the hoard but I know my grandparents were hoarders and my grandma would literally cry if a handyman had to come over because she was ashamed (after my grandpa died and my grandma moved out she actually stopped being a hoarder though, weirdly enough). Anyway if we have an unexpected visitor we don't have to do any extra cleaning or worry about any embarrassing messes. It is already visitor ready at all times. That doesn't just happen by accident or magic. That's all because of me because I do 95% of the cleaning and spend 2-3 hours on my weekly cleaning as well as however many hours for spot cleaning throughout the week (cleaning up after their messes too like the olive oil she spills on the stove every single time she cooks). If it wasn't for me the entire apartment would look like her room by now. I hope she realizes that today especially and maybe stops being such a bitch or saying that I'm trash when she literally lives in trash.

KnoxForPres · January 14, 2019

On 1/13/2019 at 3:39 PM, Sun-Bun said:

Yes!!! Do that, @BuyMoreAndSave; not only will it make you feel better, but there’s a 80-95% chance she won’t even notice anything missing either. It’s a win-win for you both, really—-just make sure it isn’t too obvious and just gradually chink away at those annoying piles of junk. If she mentions anything missing(she likely won’t), just play dumb and say something like, “You have so much stuff you don’t even remember where you put it all, huh?” My husband is a bit of a book hoarder(never mind that with most books he’ll read one for a few chapters then never pick it up to read again), so I’ve had to do that myself just for my own sanity and to not overload our small library. Works like a charm and Goodwill is a regular stop for me and those damned books.

And @KnoxForPres, it’s *definitely* time to nail down some marital expectations with your guy if that’s what your wanting. Make sure it’s a relaxed moment and he’s not feeling browbeaten at all—-just let him know it’s a new year, you’re hoping to start firming up major life plans for your future together, and give him a time frame for when you’d like to see an engagement occur. If he can’t handle that, well, you might want to reevaluate some things.

Like I’ll never forget having that chat with my husband at a party, of all things; we’d lived together for a year, been together nearly three years, and I’d already let him know that marriage was definitely my ultimate expectation back when I moved in( I gave him a 3-5 year window originally). My grandmother was in poor health by then and I told him over our second or third glass of wine that I was hoping she’d be able to see us finally married and settled...and that I wanted to be official by the time he hit 50 and I hit 35. He appreciated the honesty and said he’d already been looking at rings. A year later we got engaged and married at a simple beachside ceremony in the islands.

You gotta be straight up and honest with your partner though. Don’t ever be afraid to let them know what you want.

Yes to you and @theredhead77. I guess I was raised and surrounded very much by traditional courting but I’ve made it to 39 and always lived alone with a cat or a dog. I’ve never had a roommate outside of college.I never dreamed or cared about a wedding. I find them a waste of money (solely to me- not to people that do care and long for that- including my beloved sister).

So- I kind of sit on the conversation. I’m not rushing to the altar. Like right now I’m sitting alone with my dog going to watch Dirty John (listened to podcast so spoiled) and I’m blissfully happy. So it’s two fold. I love this guy so much and have never had feelings like this before- but I’m ok. We don’t want kids so that’s not a worry. I Iive downtown and moving in with him takes me to the suburbs. I’m far from unhappy. I think that’s why initially I said I’m equal hesitant- because I am.

@BuyMoreAndSave Seems like a shit ton of resentment you’re carrying. Maybe a big deep breath and let some of that go? Do what you can and and just a whew - big exhale- it’s gone. And resolve yourself to it.

Edited January 14, 2019 by KnoxForPres

BuyMoreAndSave · January 15, 2019

1 hour ago, KnoxForPres said:

@BuyMoreAndSave Seems like a shit ton of resentment you’re carrying. Maybe a big deep breath and let some of that go? Do what you can and and just a whew - big exhale- it’s gone. And resolve yourself to it.

Yes I am carrying resentment because the situation is still ongoing.

I told my husband I have a deal. If she pays each of us 12.5% of the sale price of the house (approximately $37,500)* I will consider all up to this point to be forgiven because that will be repayment for services rendered. Namely, cleaning up and selling the house, real estate services (me finding an apartment that fit her and the bird's needs on about six weeks' notice), petsitting services (the vet charges $35/day for petsitting and we took care of her bird for almost a year and could have been evicted if someone found out, plus we got it on a waitlist for a bird sanctuary in case we hadn't been able to find an apartment that accepts pets), and most importantly hundreds of hours in consulting fees (arguments/negotiations) and pain and suffering. She is a multimillionaire because somehow she had a very successful career despite the rest of her life being a disaster, so this wouldn't be a problem for her financially. She also has to know that this is where the money is going, aka my husband can't tell her a cover story to spare her feelings. If she actually does this she and the bird can continue to live with us and I will clean up her messes without complaint and she can hoard as much as she wants in her room as long as it does not become a biohazard or vermin situation or structurally unsafe. Otherwise she has to either a) admit she has a problem and go to counseling and make amends for the way she has treated us, or b) leave in the next three months and she cannot leave any items behind and that is the end of my interactions with her (my husband and future kids will still visit her). Of course that leaves the question of what happens if my brother becomes homeless so that's something I have to think about.

I've done a lot of work for free in my life (unpaid internships and so on). A lot of people in my generation have. In fact I think I've done more work for free than I've done for pay. I decided last year that I'm done working for free and this is another example of that. My husband and I have both done a lot of work and had a lot of stress as a result of her actions and she has not compensated us at all for any of that in any way.

Of course it's good sometimes to help family out of the goodness of your heart but in the long run there has to be a reciprocal relationship and it can't be all one side giving and the other side taking forever. Even if it's just being nice to someone and supportive, that counts as a reciprocation, and it doesn't cost anything. Unfortunately due to growing up in a dysfunctional family (which I also wrote about on here in the past) I have been taken advantage of by family members many times. I've done things that could have gotten me in serious trouble to help family members and they continued to cause more stress in my life instead of reciprocating through their actions. In fact I've found that the more you do for people, the less they appreciate it and the more they start taking advantage of you. I'm done with that because I have to have some self-respect.

As an example of taking advantage BTW, my dad owes me $500 because I pay his phone bill and then he pays me back when he has the money, but he hasn't paid me back in over a year. It's not because he doesn't have the money because he started getting more money this year from Social Security retirement. He probably thinks I forgot about it or something. Tomorrow I'm going to tell him he has to pay up in a reasonable time frame or I'm going to close the phone service down.

*this may seem like a lot for a fixer-upper house but in the NYC area it isn't

Edited January 15, 2019 by BuyMoreAndSave

KnoxForPres · January 15, 2019

33 minutes ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

Yes I am carrying resentment because the situation is still ongoing.

I told my husband I have a deal. If she pays each of us 12.5% of the sale price of the house (approximately $37,500)* I will consider all up to this point to be forgiven because that will be repayment for services rendered. Namely, cleaning up and selling the house, real estate services (me finding an apartment that fit her and the bird's needs on about six weeks' notice), petsitting services (the vet charges $35/day for petsitting and we took care of her bird for almost a year and could have been evicted if someone found out, plus we got it on a waitlist for a bird sanctuary in case we hadn't been able to find an apartment that accepts pets), and most importantly hundreds of hours in consulting fees (arguments/negotiations) and pain and suffering. She is a multimillionaire because somehow she had a very successful career despite the rest of her life being a disaster, so this wouldn't be a problem for her financially. She also has to know that this is where the money is going, aka my husband can't tell her a cover story to spare her feelings. If she actually does this she and the bird can continue to live with us and I will clean up her messes without complaint and she can hoard as much as she wants in her room as long as it does not become a biohazard or vermin situation or structurally unsafe. Otherwise she has to either a) admit she has a problem and go to counseling and make amends for the way she has treated us, or b) leave in the next three months and she cannot leave any items behind and that is the end of my interactions with her (my husband and future kids will still visit her). Of course that leaves the question of what happens if my brother becomes homeless so that's something I have to think about.

I've done a lot of work for free in my life (unpaid internships and so on). A lot of people in my generation have. In fact I think I've done more work for free than I've done for pay. I decided last year that I'm done working for free and this is another example of that. My husband and I have both done a lot of work and had a lot of stress as a result of her actions and she has not compensated us at all for any of that in any way.

Of course it's good sometimes to help family out of the goodness of your heart but in the long run there has to be a reciprocal relationship and it can't be all one side giving and the other side taking forever. Even if it's just being nice to someone and supportive, that counts as a reciprocation, and it doesn't cost anything. Unfortunately due to growing up in a dysfunctional family (which I also wrote about on here in the past) I have been taken advantage of by family members many times. I've done things that could have gotten me in serious trouble to help family members and they continued to cause more stress in my life instead of reciprocating through their actions. In fact I've found that the more you do for people, the less they appreciate it and the more they start taking advantage of you. I'm done with that because I have to have some self-respect.

As an example of taking advantage BTW, my dad owes me $500 because I pay his phone bill and then he pays me back when he has the money, but he hasn't paid me back in over a year. It's not because he doesn't have the money because he started getting more money this year from Social Security retirement. He probably thinks I forgot about it or something. Tomorrow I'm going to tell him he has to pay up in a reasonable time frame or I'm going to close the phone service down.

*this may seem like a lot for a fixer-upper house but in the NYC area it isn't

I’d stop paying your dads phone bill, I’d completely leave your mother in law to your husband and I’d just stop- full stop. It’s heavy to read it much less live it. They’re in control and can handle as necessary- brother is hard but you can deal with as needed too. The other- Is what your doing working? Are they getting it? Nothing seems to change so give that part of you to them and for real let it go. Breathe out and in your car or room yell I am done with it. And mean it. Unless you have a better idea I see you have to either stop or lessen it. Do you agree?

BuyMoreAndSave · January 15, 2019

10 minutes ago, KnoxForPres said:

I’d stop paying your dads phone bill, I’d completely leave your mother in law to your husband and I’d just stop- full stop. It’s heavy to read it much less live it. They’re in control and can handle as necessary- brother is hard but you can deal with as needed too. The other- Is what your doing working? Are they getting it? Nothing seems to change so give that part of you to them and for real let it go. Breathe out and in your car or room yell I am done with it. And mean it. Unless you have a better idea I see you have to either stop or lessen it. Do you agree?

I would like to let it go but I don't have the luxury of doing that. Every time I have to clean up after her, or the bird screams, or my husband is gone for hours doing things for her such as cleaning up her house when we could be spending time together doing something fun, then that is an impact on my life. Just like before she moved in with us I wanted to live my own life and she would not let me due to placing demands and guilt-trips on us. I can ignore the hoarding but not if it becomes an unsafe situation (which, if she stays here, is probably only about a year away from happening) or she moves out and leaves things for us to waste our time on cleaning up.

In other news she just went to the hospital. She went out to dinner with my husband and his cousin and apparently she got nauseous and started throwing up and it turned out she was having atrial fibrillation. The illness that she had caused heart damage so she has a pig valve and possibly a pacemaker (not sure) and she can get atrial fibrillation at some times, but this is the first time it was bad enough to send her to the hospital. They think that she will be ok. I hope that my not talking to her for over a week and wanting her to move out did not cause this to happen due to stress, but I'm not sure she knows I want her to move out since I did not discuss it with her and I don't know if my husband did. But even if it did cause it, she created the tense situation in the first place (and she also created her own health problems because she let a minor problem turn into a major one) so I don't think I should feel bad about it.

Edited January 15, 2019 by BuyMoreAndSave

KnoxForPres · January 15, 2019

3 minutes ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

I would like to let it go but I don't have the luxury of doing that. Every time I have to clean up after her, or the bird screams, or my husband is gone for hours doing things for her such as cleaning up her house when we could be spending time together doing something fun, then that is an impact on my life. Just like before she moved in with us I wanted to live my own life and she would not let me due to placing demands and guilt-trips on us. I can ignore the hoarding but not if it becomes an unsafe situation (which, if she stays here, is probably only about a year away from happening) or she moves out and leaves things for us to waste our time on cleaning up.

In other news she just went to the hospital. She went out to dinner with my husband and his cousin and apparently she got nauseous and started throwing up and it turned out she was having atrial fibrillation. The illness that she had caused heart damage so she has an artificial valve and possibly a pacemaker (not sure) and she can get atrial fibrillation at some times, but this is the first time it was bad enough to send her to the hospital. They think that she will be ok. I hope that my not talking to her for over a week and wanting her to move out did not cause this to happen due to stress, but I'm not sure she knows I want her to move out since I did not discuss it with her and I don't know if my husband did. But even if it did cause it, she created the tense situation in the first place (and she also created her own health problems because she let a minor problem turn into a major one) so I don't think I should feel bad about it.

You shouldn’t feel bad about it but you need to see your place in this and what you do and do not have control over.

You’re in control of you- and just you. Not her, not her health. You’re also not a victim. You’re a fully able (to my knowledge this forum is long so if you’re disabled I apologize) working adult, yes? Work gives us such a sense of purpose and satisfaction.

I’m an animal lover and would probably get on Amazon and have found head gear to wear- but growing up as a kid our neighbor in Baltimore had birds and admittedly I was scared but they were sweet. Is it that mean? Is there no cage? Most problems have solutions. Let’s work through this. As a whole forum.

BuyMoreAndSave · January 15, 2019

30 minutes ago, KnoxForPres said:

You shouldn’t feel bad about it but you need to see your place in this and what you do and do not have control over.

You’re in control of you- and just you. Not her, not her health. You’re also not a victim. You’re a fully able (to my knowledge this forum is long so if you’re disabled I apologize) working adult, yes? Work gives us such a sense of purpose and satisfaction.

I’m an animal lover and would probably get on Amazon and have found head gear to wear- but growing up as a kid our neighbor in Baltimore had birds and admittedly I was scared but they were sweet. Is it that mean? Is there no cage? Most problems have solutions. Let’s work through this. As a whole forum.

Thanks for the kind words and help.

I have C-PTSD and OCD. I have not worked full time in over three years due to these disabilities (I did do hundreds of hours of unpaid work "for experience" during this time though and also trained for a new career and got some IT certifications). Currently I am working part time as an app developer and studying but I am hoping to get full time work soon. I'm working on a contract for someone who has a lot of experience in tech and I'm hoping he can write me a good recommendation.

The stresses she has caused have made my symptoms worse, especially in 2016 when she got sick it caused my OCD (which had been dormant for over a decade) to relapse and made my life hell for a long time. Obviously she didn't do this on purpose but when she goes off about how I'm lazy it does make me more pissed off about it. I also think that she made my confidence even worse than it already was by trying to control my life, which has made me even more afraid to look for a job and has made me accept things like working hundreds of hours for free. Because I wasn't allowed to make my own decisions as an adult and told that I was selfish for not going along with her, it makes me feel like I'm not a real adult. I used to be a very independent person before all this started and I have a degree in STEM from one of the top 20 colleges in America (going by US News and World Report). So I have been thinking about where it all went wrong and it seems like she played a role in it.

In any case due to inheriting 25% of my grandma's estate I do pay for 1/3rd of the rent and my own personal expenses, and I also usually buy the groceries including for my husband. I have enough money to live off of for the next several years (I don't buy very much, don't own a house or car, and buy most clothes and housewares secondhand) and my husband also is financially ok since he works in tech. Most of our furniture was also either bought by me or inherited from my family members. I have never borrowed any money or anything else from her. I did borrow $5K from my husband before I got my inheritance but I offered to pay him back and he said no. Yet she still acts like I'm a freeloader and don't get a say in my own life, and she still acts like my employment problems are her business and that she can browbeat me about it.

This is not a sweet bird. She actually had an albino cockatiel that was sweet and not as loud (which escaped and flew away shortly before she got sick) and I would have been fine living with that bird. This bird bites if I get within two feet of it (it has bitten me before and left a painful swelling and bruise). It poops everywhere. It screams so loudly that you can hear it on the first floor hallway of our building if our thick wood apartment door is closed and we live on the third floor. The only reason nobody has complained is because there are dogs in the building that bark...but at least they aren't shrill like a bird is.

BTW I have also almost been attacked by two dogs in our building because we had to live in an apartment that allowed pets. The hallways and stairs are narrow with blind corners and the dog owners don't understand that dog and people aggressive dogs should not be in an apartment building and that a 50lb dog is going to feel claustrophobic in that situation and freak out if a person unexpectedly comes up the stairs while they're going down the stairs.

The bird has a cage but it doesn't prevent the sound. It is loose in her room the entire day and I think that is good overall because being restricted to the cage would be too confining, but she also doesn't clean up after it regularly. The only reason why she cleans at all is because I would get pissed otherwise, because in the hoarder house there was bird shit EVERYWHERE. At night it goes on my husband's shoulder (it's obsessed with my husband which is why it always tries to bite me) and he goes all around the apartment. He is supposed to clean up after it if it poops, but he often "forgets" or "doesn't see it" and I have to do it. He even gets bird poop on the wall, the bed, and me if it poops on his shirt.

Also the worst part is the bird's lifespan is "10-50 years," whatever that means, and it is currently around 15 years old. Which means I could have to live with this thing for most of my adult life.

Edited January 15, 2019 by BuyMoreAndSave

Hero · January 18, 2019

My dad has stage 4 kidney disease and his doctor has told him he should start looking for a kidney. I'm pretty numb right now. My dad is hesitant to have me and my siblings checked out to see if we are a match, because he feels guilty about potentially having to take a kidney from one of us.

We all told him that having him here and alive is definitely worth parting with a kidney.

I'm trying really hard to keep it together, especially at work where I am face to face with people constantly.

In the end, it's his call if he wants a kidney or not, but i'm not ready to lose him.

DeLurker · January 18, 2019

I’m so sorry. I can’t imagine how difficult it would be to handle normal day-to-day interaction at work when you are still trying to process all of this.

From what I’ve read, your Dad’s view is not uncommon - parents who would give an organ without hesitation to their child, are often adamant about not accepting one from the same child.

I don’t know how much time is a concern right now, but maybe get tested to see if it is even a realistic issue to discuss further.

Be kind to yourself right now - this is a big thing. If you find yourself easily distracted, call a cab, Uber, friend...

KnoxForPres · January 19, 2019

On 1/17/2019 at 7:43 PM, Hero said:

My dad has stage 4 kidney disease and his doctor has told him he should start looking for a kidney. I'm pretty numb right now. My dad is hesitant to have me and my siblings checked out to see if we are a match, because he feels guilty about potentially having to take a kidney from one of us.

We all told him that having him here and alive is definitely worth parting with a kidney.

I'm trying really hard to keep it together, especially at work where I am face to face with people constantly.

In the end, it's his call if he wants a kidney or not, but i'm not ready to lose him.

Take it one day at a time. You kids can discuss and decide what are best next steps and options but as DeLurker said, who is always wise, take care of yourself. And having a good solo cry of the why is this happening variety has been cathartic for me in my life.

Hero · January 20, 2019

Thank you guys so much for all of your kind words! I feel like I am on the verge of crying constantly which is really annoying for me. I honestly hate crying. But, ultimately, it's my dad's decision if he wants to go through with the transplant or not. I was speaking to him more about why he doesn't want to try the transplant route. He says that he is scared to do surgery. He also told me that he will feel guilt about taking a kidney, especially if the kidney that is given to him doesn't take. He also said that he's old and that we would need the kidney more than him. He is in his late 60s.

We all told him that we honestly don't care if he takes a kidney from us, his health is so much more important.

He wants to speak with a dietitian to see if maybe eating better will help him. I really think his kidney is too far gone for that to help. His diet isn't bad, I make his meals for him and I stick with a pretty healthy diet.

I really, really don't want to lose him. I feel like he isn't going to make it too far without a new kidney.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Hero

DeLurker · January 20, 2019

@hero - good thoughts coming your way for both of you. I admire your ability to respect that this is his decision to make, as hard as it is. I would think there has to be resources within your community that can help him talk through his concerns & fears so he is at least making it from an informed position. I would contact his doctor's office to see if they can refer you to someone who is able to help him, and all of you, through this decision.

Please take advantage of the board when you need to let things out.

Hero · January 20, 2019

2 hours ago, DeLurker said:

@hero - good thoughts coming your way for both of you. I admire your ability to respect that this is his decision to make, as hard as it is. I would think there has to be resources within your community that can help him talk through his concerns & fears so he is at least making it from an informed position. I would contact his doctor's office to see if they can refer you to someone who is able to help him, and all of you, through this decision.

Please take advantage of the board when you need to let things out.

We called his doctor a few days ago to get more information on what to do next. They are sending us a packet and a way to start the process if my chooses to do so.

We were talking to him about it last night and he said that he is willing to read about the transplant and go from there.

BookWoman56 · January 20, 2019

@Hero, it's good that he's going to read the informational packet and go from there. As you said, it's his decision but it's obviously one he needs to make with all the relevant information available. Take it one day at a time, but also prepare yourself for the possibility that his decision may not be the one you want. Either way, you'll be there to support him, but make sure you take care of yourself as well. Dealing with a loved one going through a major health crisis is very draining emotionally and physically.

KnoxForPres · January 21, 2019

Today was a big day and I feel we got hopeful news. Turns out there was cancer in both ovaries and cyst had erupted. All markers they took were negative for cancer. He wants her to undergo 18 weeks of chemo to lessen her chances of return. He called it palliative and her wish and she said yes. She’ll lose her hair and all that comes with chemo but this is good I feel! My god ovarian cancer is a scary search even if you keep it to the Cleveland/Mayo clinic types which I did(I was the only one to look this up including have a librarian in the family- but I get it). So this is good! Her spirits are high and ready to take it on.

Edited January 22, 2019 by KnoxForPres

DeLurker · January 22, 2019

I’m so happy for you!

I know the chemo is no cake walk, but still that was good news for all of you.

Brookside · January 26, 2019

On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 9:22 AM, Hero said:

We called his doctor a few days ago to get more information on what to do next. They are sending us a packet and a way to start the process if my chooses to do so.

We were talking to him about it last night and he said that he is willing to read about the transplant and go from there.

Is your father's other kidney healthy? Is it likely to become diseased?

Sending good wishes as you work through this. As others have said, take time for yourself when you can do something that allows you not to think about the situation.

Hero · January 27, 2019

1 hour ago, Brookside said:

Is your father's other kidney healthy? Is it likely to become diseased?

Sending good wishes as you work through this. As others have said, take time for yourself when you can do something that allows you not to think about the situation.

Thank you ❤ His kidney(s) are functioning at a low level. They are making too much protein.

PRgal · February 5, 2019

Yay! My son's 100 Days celebration was a raging success (even though we had some last minute pull outs...)!!! No one criticized our gingerbread eggs (at least not to my face) and everyone thought my son was cute! Nothing much to rant about on that part! We didn't reach our fundraising goal online, but once you factor in the lai see (lucky money), we went OVER!!!

One thing which bothered me about the weekend: My in-laws and their health. My FIL, despite losing weight, is still morbidly obese and just...for the lack of a better description, looked like a lazy blob. They never left their hotel other than to come to our place and to the event. MIL, despite her issues, was actually able to get her own food at the buffet. And she didn't use her cane much. However, she seemed unaware of her surroundings until you pointed things out to her. She's in her early 70s, but acts like someone much older (due to her health issues). Compare that to my parents who're the same age. Mom takes fitness classes and my dad plays golf in the summer.

Edited February 5, 2019 by PRgal

BookWoman56 · February 6, 2019

Not quite 3 months after starting the process, I finally got a new wheelchair delivered for my mother. It’s lightweight and will be easier to manipulate, so I’m grateful for that. But this has taken way more time, paperwork, and follow-up phone calls than I anticipated for a new manual wheelchair. I remember someone else, possibly @forumfish, describing how it took 6 months to get a new motorized wheelchair for her sister. That’s an insane amount of time.

February 9, 2019

This is very minor, but I live across the street from my bossy, year-older sister. Her office is in their front bedroom where she has a clear view of the street. During the past several months, she's emailed me three times to "warn" me that there are trucks blocking my driveway and not to try to back out.

Like I'm going to open my garage door, see a large moving truck, and still try to drive right into the thing!

Once she ran across the street after I opened my garage door to tell me there was a car parked in front of her house which she apparently also thought I would back into.

Jeez. My vision and hearing are fine and I haven't had an accident for like 40 years when I was in my twenties.

Edited February 9, 2019 by 2727

hoosier80 · February 10, 2019

Ongoing drama with Mom. Holidays were a nightmare, and she'd let slip that even my brother, the Golden One, had really "let her have it" as in screamed at her - he couldn't take it any more, nothing was ever good enough for her, he was going to collapse from the stress of dealing with her. It was validation that I'm not the crazy one. He's usually so emotionless or being overly sweet to her; I think he turns on the sugary act to try and deal with her, but if she goes into a dark mood or he just can't take it, he turns into stone.

So due to weather being horrible, not been there since the holidays. Mom told one of her friends oh "we like to keep it with every 2 to 3 weeks" (my visits). "We" were never consulted nor asked, but no it's not 2 to 3 weeks.

She had been in a non-communicating mood (i.e. pouting and not taking calls) until she got a cold and wanted advice. It was the end of the world for her, but it was just a cold. My brother and I are very prone to getting every sinus or upper respiratory infection within 50 miles, but not much sympathy from her. I hear you need to go to the doctor, which is ironic, because she does not go to her doctor (he don't know anything!). Well, I do have a doctor I trust and do see him when needed.

She started in on me the other evening; I'd asked if her throat was still sore. No it's ok, I'm just sad. Been crying all day. Oh, lord here we go again. She had to put her Christmas stuff away. She really thought I was going to drive through a snowstorm to put her stuff away (it's a good 4 hour drive). "All the dirty work is left to me". Well, you could put up a small tree, which you said was too small, and you put as an outdoor type decoration now. She thought it was 'wonderful' when her mother was older and put up a small tree, but she has to have a big tree, once again has to be the best, biggest, most special. Putting up decorations is not a necessity, so if you want it up/down, then plan for it, and do not count on my doing it. She said once that my brother and I would bitch if no decorations were up. No, I really could not care less. Holidays are now a chore and are miserable.

So anyway, she starts in ranting, her 'Greatest Hits', she never thought she'd be alone, have such a heartless, selfish daughter, she'd like me to be here all the time (what sell my house and quit my job just to be her maid? nah), I dared to buy a home without consulting her FIRST or getting her opinion (she needed to tour with me), I did it too rashly (I looked for at least 5 years, but no she says I did not), buying a two story house was an evil plan to keep her away (she cannot deal with stairs) - even though most homes are two story here (land is expensive so you get a larger square footage with less land footprint - which she does not understand), I'm the reason she's so unhappy, etc., etc. I put the phone on mute and let her rant, while turning down the volume. She so wanted a HUGE fight; even a fight gets her the attention or it feeds her narcissistic personality. I didn't argue, just said well I'll let you go so you can get your stuff done (always I have so much to do, but when I was there she mainly sat in her chair all day). She didn't hear and then slammed down the phone.

I'd ordered care packages and other items for her. Got notice the next day that one package had been delivered, so I called her. No answer. No answer to any call since that time - maybe since Wednesday evening. On one hand, I'm relieved, no stressful calls. On the other hand, I'm pissed off - I haven't done a thing to her. I'm guessing there may be a hateful letter or note in the mail to me. She's told me before - I don't have a daughter. It could also be that she's been fighting with my brother at the same time or he's turned into stone again. She keeps telling me all the time though, I don't know what I'd do without him, he's so wonderful. Well he lives about 2 miles away. If he can't bring in some groceries or mail, then there's something wrong. He comes in for maybe 10 minutes and then leaves. That I could deal with. Living with me 24/7 - no way. She says she'll never get over my saying no to her, plus why is it just my decision? It's my house, my life, my sanity. She says oh we always got along well before. No, we did not. All I remember from childhood was trying not to piss her off, walking on eggshells. I pretty much kept my mouth shut (I was always the shy/quiet one). Once I moved away, I came out of my shell and realized, I do have a say in how I do things, how I live my life. She really doesn't like that she's lost control - in so many aspects of her life, but the days of controlling my every move are long gone. I've asked her, when frustrated, what exactly do you want me to do? What do you want to happen? You tell me. She has no response. I told her she's old and bitter how her life turned out, but I can't help that. She said no I'm not bitter. Then why is she obsessed when other couples go on 2nd honeymoons, get new houses, go out? She's totally jealous, bitter she never got to do whatever or they're doing stuff and she cannot. She doesn't really want to do that, but she so wants to keep up with the Joneses. She wanted internet access, has it now, and bitches about it. Same with cell phones (3, all of which were stupid). As my brother said, it's never enough.

Thanks for letting me vent.

BookWoman56 · February 11, 2019

10 hours ago, hoosier80 said:

Holidays are now a chore and are miserable.

While my mother in no way approaches the level of inducing misery and stress that yours does, I share this feeling, which started when I was in my teens. My mother had to have a huge damn production made of Thanksgiving and Christmas, and those holidays had so much chaos going on that I really came to loathe them. Major decorations for Christmas, insane amounts of food to be prepared for meals for both holidays, presents to be bought and wrapped so there would be a ton of stuff under the tree, etc. Even after reaching adulthood, on most holidays I opted to go visit my parents, and would get pulled into the prep work instead of being able to just relax for a bit and catch up with various family members.

Fast forward a few decades and now my mother is living with me. I did what I felt comfortable with for Christmas and just ignored her more outrageous demands (no, I'm not going to put frosted grapes around the turkey, etc.). She wants holiday meals to look like they came out of a magazine. I can enjoy a fairly low key family event for holidays, with a few special foods and so forth, without making myself crazy. I do break out the formal china, crystal, and silver, but that's about as extreme as I'm going to get. My mother would have preferred that I have about twice as much food as I did, but she was okay for the most part with what I made. As I've mentioned previously, I did set up her damn Christmas village stuff, which required getting a couple of 8-foot folding tables, and went and picked up my younger sister and her family for the day. But that's as far as I'm willing to go.

@hoosier80, I understand you feel compelled to visit your mother occasionally and communicate with her. But is there any way you can set some limits with her? As in, telling her that it's your life and your decisions, which she doesn't get to make for you. And that she's not going to guilt trip you into giving up your life to go wait on her hand and foot. My guess is that she'll yell and whine about it, but it sounds like she whines about everything now anyway, so it would just be more of the same. When you talk with/visit her, can you try to just keep some emotional distance and not give a flying fuck whether she approves of your choices or not? Because from everything you've said, and also from what your brother has said, nothing you can do is ever going to satisfy/please her, so quit making the attempt and just do what you want to do for your own life.

@2727, in your situation, I'd be quite tempted the next time your sister gives you an unnecessary warning about backing out of your driveway, to tell her that you always check for parked vehicles blocking your exit, etc., so there's no need to notify you every time a car or truck is parked anywhere close to your driveway. Plus possibly having a custom t-shirt made that says, "I am perfectly capable of backing out of my own driveway without incident," and wearing it when she's sure to see it.

hoosier80 · February 12, 2019

And just as I predicted, Mom called me. I picked up, and no response to my 'hello'. She called a second time, and this time added some panting/breathing. I called back after a few minutes, and casually asked, 'did you call me?' Yes. Well, why no answer? Oh, I'm in pain. Ok, what hurts? She yelled at me, what a stupid, stupid question. Very stupid. Her hands and arms are hurting (arthritis). She won't see a doctor, I guess I'm supposed to magically cure her somehow. (You look other stuff up - as in online. Yeah that's not how it works, plus she won't try anything suggested or tries it for maybe a few minutes at most).

I said well has your back been hurting? Well, sure it has. So it wasn't a stupid question. She then calmed down and said oh she just has all sorts of physical problems. She considers herself handicapped; she just isn't as mobile as she once was. She really wants to be waited on 24/7, and doted upon. She's not mentioned her friends lately. One is going blind, yet gets along better than Mom, who accepts help. But she has a 'WONDERFUL Daughter in Law'. Ok, I get it. Other friend is a few years younger, who has minimal contact with her children, yet she manages. Mom said she'd not spoken to either in 'ages'. Yeah, I think maybe they are distancing themselves from her.

She ended up being okay-ish at the end of the call.

Called again tonight, after getting home late. Of course, she's in a foul mood. I can't talk long, I'm just so sad. No one wants to do a thing for me, but I did so much for everyone years ago (not that much - and what she did - she loved doing. She moved me and several of her relatives (they're all deceased). She loved it because she was in charge, and bossed folks around. No one cared. Hey if you want to box up stuff, go ahead. She said now she'd tell everyone to go to hell. So it's down to me. My brother, I think since he remained local, decided early on, not to have her do much for him. Smart move.

Anyhow she just complained more - same old stuff. I may ask her, what exactly do you want? I'm not moving there. You are not moving here permanently. One option - I will pay for a helper for you. As far as setting guidelines, no way. Tried that and her response was, you think you're so big! You're so stuck up! You won't listen to no one (her). Well I am 'big', I'm close to retirement age. She still has the mental image of me as a 12 year old. She actually remembers things I said right after my Dad died, said to console her - like we'll work together, we'll get along. She says now YOU LIED. You didn't keep your word. Seriously, I was a 12 year old who just lost her Dad, trying to console you. That is her mentality. You need to watch whatever you say or do because your words will be used as a weapon some day.

If she were to move here permanently, she would regret it. Her hometown is all she's ever known. Every time she's come here for a visit, everything is stupid. The way the trash is collected (pick up routes), the way the houses are constructed, the way the local tv stations focus on sports teams in this state, the cable company (doesn't have the same channels and why do you have HBO? It's so expensive, do you actually watch it? Why do you want it, just movies and you can go to the dollar movie show to watch or they'll be on regular tv at some point), the local newspaper, the taste of the water, etc., etc. I know she wants me to move back there, and no way, no how.

I honestly, think she wants me to wait on her 24/7, and/or to be as miserable as she is now. A friend told me, you have a choice, you can be miserable or you can do something about it. Your mom chooses to be miserable. That's not your choice.

Forecast calls for snow this weekend, so I may be off the hook as far as visits go. That's sad, but it's the truth.

ratgirlagogo · February 12, 2019

8 hours ago, hoosier80 said:

A friend told me, you have a choice, you can be miserable or you can do something about it. Your mom chooses to be miserable. That's not your choice.

Your friend is a wise person. Good luck honey and you know that all of us here are rooting for you.

Edited February 12, 2019 by ratgirlagogo

DeLurker · February 12, 2019

@hoosier80 - Your mom is a handful to say the least. Is there no one left that has some influence over her? Because she probably has physical conditions that are causing her discomfort that have been left untreated and chronic pain can take its toll on even the most pleasant of people. If you have a difficult person to start out with, well that just amplifies their personality.

Would it be possible to specifically refuse to visit until she has had a check-up and/or go with her to the appointment? It might appeal to her vanity that her daughter insists she see a doctor (she'll probably still rail at you, but she'll be able to tell other people how concerned you are about her health).

I'm really sorry.

BuyMoreAndSave · February 12, 2019

Update:

It has been about a month. Things between me and my MIL have become ok again. We haven't had any more arguments and she hasn't had any more illnesses (they still don't know what happened when she had to go to the hospital but their theory was some sort of infection). She actually even started cleaning up her room a bit, with some help from my husband, although I saw today that she is letting things go again. For the time being it seems to be a workable situation again. The bird is still the bird but I'm hoping one day there will be some sort of financial compensation in that regard.

It also seems more likely that we will sell the house rather than renovating it. I really hate that area and more importantly, the house would be so much work to renovate and would probably still have lasting problems afterwards, and my husband is not going to have the time or patience for that.

Meanwhile I came to the decision that I never, ever want to have kids. I never had any maternal instinct and I have no experience caring for kids. I also grew up in an abusive household and have disabilities as a result of that. I thought I would get over my disabilities and develop maternal instincts as I got more mature because the societal narrative is "you'll change your mind when you get older!" Or even though I'm not particularly a fan of kids in general that the hormones and stuff would make me automatically want them if they were MY kids. But after doing a lot of research on it and being honest with what I want and have the ability to handle vs. what other people pressured me to want or try to handle, I have realized that the desire is simply not there. Pregnancy terrifies me (I feel nervous even being around pregnant women -- no offense), I hate loud noises, I'm not very patient, and I like my independence. I would probably be a bad parent and it would probably have a devastating effect on my health.

My husband has always wanted kids though so this is something we've been discussing over the past few weeks. It is possible we may have to break up at some point due to this issue but currently we have no plans to break up.

The thing is that it seems like he only wants kids in theory and not in reality. He is even more independent than I am, very ambitious with many hobbies and career goals, and he hates having to put his schedule on hold for anyone else. I don't think he really understands how disruptive having kids is. Someone I know recently had a baby and she is home and her husband is only working part-time and she said they still feel strained. And their baby is healthy and has no special needs or colic or anything like that. She said colic is diagnosed when a baby "cries inconsolably for more than three hours." I asked my husband if he really was ready to deal with something like that. Or if he was willing to get up five times a night to deal with a crying baby, take time off work on the day an important project is due to pick up his sick kid from school, etc. Or what if his kid grows up to be someone who has little in common with him? And I asked him, "What if you have a special needs child that needs 24/7 care for the rest of your life? What happens to your life goals then?"

Then he said "maybe I should only have a kid if I'm rich so I can afford good care for them," and that he would probably only start wanting to spend time with kids when they were 8 or 9 years old because then you can have a real conversation with them. I was like "...but that's not what raising kids is about. You can't just dump them on a nanny (or on your wife). You have to deal with it 24/7 if you chose to make this decision, even on the days that you don't want to. I don't think you have really thought about this." I told him if he really just wants to have that kind of relationship with a kid, he could be in the Big Brothers program or become a tutor of some kind. I advised him that if he REALLY still wants to have kids, he should go visit some of his relatives with young kids and try babysitting for a week. I have a pretty good feeling he will come back realizing that he really wants to be childfree.

These conversations have just solidified my desire to be childfree though. It seems like he had the idea that he would just go off and have his career and leave someone else (ie. me) to do most of the actual parenting, and then show up for the parts that he wants to do like the fun parts and teaching them skills. I'm not really surprised by this considering how he leaves so many messes for me to clean up, but it is disappointing that he's this unconsciously sexist. If I did have a kid with him it would have many parallels to my parents' scenario where my dad would leave most of the parenting and all of the housework to my mom even though they both worked, and my mom had no life to herself and therefore resented us and ended up abusing us and telling us she wished we were never born. My parents hated each other but couldn't even get divorced because they couldn't afford to, because they had us kids. No thanks. That particular cycle ends here.

But this shows how men and women are still not equal. I don't think they ever will be first of all because of the inherent inequality in women having to be the ones that get pregnant. But other than that it is socially acceptable for a man to be a "weekend dad" even if he is still married to his wife, and to have priorities outside of his kids. He gets applause just for showing up. Whereas a mother is expected to put her life on hold and put her kids above all else.

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