S03.E07: The Last Supper

[Fable]

I truly hate Caleb and love Norma, but I honestly see them as both wounded victims who got in over their heads as kids, but I do believe that Norma tried to end things and Caleb couldn't let it go.  I also think Caleb truly believes he loves Norma, and is very needy so that love makes him obsessive.  He just cannot and will not take no for an answer.  I don't think he is malicious, but I think he is sick and dangerous, and I won't be sad when//if he dies.  That said, I do think the actor playing him is bringing his A-game because while I don't care for the character, I feel like I get where he is coming from.

[methodwriter85]

 

My teen tonight during the dinner scene asked, "How come every man is in love with Norma!?"  I said it's because something has to drive Norman psycho.

 

       Also, because Norma looks like Verga Farmiga. I'm gay but I will say she's the hottest t.v. mom I've seen since Gail O'Grady on American Dreams.

 

      I've never had trouble buying that men would be in love with a tall, curvy blonde with a beautiful, Euro-like face, beautiful eyes, and alabaster skin.

 

     Anyway, I feel like I'm watching a dysfunctional version of Chris and Cathy Dollanger when I see Caleb and Norma. I really feel like this is going to build up to Caleb trying to rape Norma, and Dylan or Norman killing him.

Edited April 22, 2015 by methodwriter85

[KaveDweller]

It'd be highly illegal to move donors up a transplant list, and the fact that Emma's father tossed it off like that kind of made me balk, then also wonder if it was a con.  But I think it's just 'creative' writing, to be honest.  I think in reality Emma's age would have her high up on the list and like someone else said she'd be living near a hospital in a large city, in preparation.  I don't know much about it, though.  Good luck with your kidney!  

 

I didn't get the sense that it was a con, I got the sense that Emma's father was working with some shady doctor who buys organs on the black market.

 

 I feel like I'm watching a dysfunctional version of Chris and Cathy Dollanger when I see Caleb and Norma. I really feel like this is going to build up to Caleb trying to rape Norma, and Dylan or Norman killing him.

 

It made me laugh to see the words "dysfunctional version of Chris and Cathy Dollanger" because it implies Chris and Cathy were in some way functional or healthy. But I agree Norma and Caleb are even worse.  As are Norma and Norman.

[Guest]

I think Vera is much more attractive than Norma.  Norma's hair this season is just bad.  Her clothes are odd and her personality is odder.  Though when she's adorable, she's adorable.  

[molshoop]

 

Norma's hair this season is just bad.

 

              I agree.  She needs to let it grow longer so she can wear it in a bun.

[Sakura12]

Emma sure got over Norman fast. I don't care, Dylan is a much better option. I saw Dylan as kind of being interested when Emma brought his pot plants to him. That's actually when I started shipping them. Plus she's the only girl that has seen craziness of his family and keeps hanging around them. I think her confession of just wanting to be part of their family like him made Dylan fall for her. Now he want's to buy her a new pair of lungs. 

 

Romero and Norma are great together, he's another that seen the crazy and keeps trying to protect her. 

 

That Family dinner was amazing. All those people are part of their messed up family. And Norman's going to kill one or more of them for taking Mother away from him. The shrink running out of the house was hilarious. If that doesn't make Norma see that something is very wrong with her son I don't know what will. 

Edited April 22, 2015 by Sakura12

[Timetoread]

Boy things sure did swirl around Norma this episode.  I loved all her ad libs about how she's gone one night and the whole world spirals out of control and every man in the world is worried that she's dead.  "What does dead have to do with a suitcase?"  LOL LOL!  That said, it's nice to feel needed and loved and she seems to really enjoy taking care of her boys - all of them.

 

Caleb is interesting.  His mannerisms seemed "slow" .  But he's not slow, he's manipulative.  It's going to take a lot of storytelling for me to ever believe that Norma shares any blame in her own rape.  Consenting is a loaded word.  I believe that young Norma said yes, but she said yes to her brother, who was larger than she was, drunk with lust and testosterone and convinced that he was "in love", and would not take no for an answer.  Her quote last season "My brother would NOT leave me alone."  In fact I'm sure he pulled the same crap he is now, the slightest rejection resulted in puppy dog eyes, crocodile tears, moans and groans about how much he NEEDS this, NEEDS her.  I can see it now, Caleb is a master.  I don't think it will be Norman who kills him, however.  I think he'll die though.

 

It's funny how this show plays with time.  The decidedly unmoderness of the Bates household.  The way Norman calls her "Mother", the way she dresses.  Even that sit down at the piano.  Norma and Vera are younger than I am and that did not sound at all like the soundtrack of my youth.  Now if they broke into an acoustic version of Tainted Love or Billie Jean, perhaps.

 

Like everybody else, I am loving Normero but what's striking me about the organic nature of it is that on the surface it looks like the age old "strong man help damsel in distress" scenario, but what is really happening is his burgeoning need for HER.  Notice that everytime he is agitated or upset about something, he calls her.  He wants her to take care of him and he had Caleb caliber puppy eyes when she wouldn't kiss his boo-boo and comfort him because he got shot.  She knows he's attracted, has for some time, but I respect that she didn't let anything happen at that point.

 

Emma and Dylan are cute.  That is all.

 

Norman. Norman. Norman. I found myself resenting him during the dinner scene.  It's like there is melodic music being played and then there is a dischordant noise that just grates.  That is what Norman has become.  That room was full of damaged people who just wanted and NEEDED to feel better.  They are actively trying to squeeze any light that they could from the moment.  But then there's Norman, the air around him is dark, his blue eyes are dark and I just wanted him gone.  That said, I am not surprised Norman is spiralling.  It isn't just the events of the past year or so, it is his age.  He is at the age where testosterone and illness form the perfect storm.  I don't blame the creepy therapist either - Norman doesn't need therapy, he needs institutionalizing (truth is he needs euthanizing because he is rabid - but we don't do that to people).  It also makes sense that his insanity and hormones are mixing with his sexuality.   I don't think he is attracted to Norma per se,I think his psyche makes him want to own her utterly and for many men, sex is about possession.  It has crossed deep boundaries.  Whoever said that Norman is like Caleb hit the nail on the head.  Mental illness runs in that family.  Norma's mother, Caleb (I don't find Norma to be mentally ill, just damaged, eccentric and unable to cope), and now Norman.  I also find it interesting that Caleb and Norman are often sharing the same space and same people but no talk yet of their encounter in the hotel.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Timetoread

[peacheslatour]

I'm ok with it because it's a small town and he was drunk and it's tv, but in reality I think a Romero would be way out of a Norma's league.  Annika would be more like it.  

Really?  A hooker?

[Guest]

Really?  A hooker?

Yeah, a sheriff and a hooker.  LOL.  

 

No.  I meant Carbonell can get any woman he wants so I'd expect to see him with someone more physically like Annika than Norma. 

[indeed]

Not thrilled about potential Dylan and Emma. Bro code, literally. First, Bradley, now Emma? Norman has enough issues (understatement).Dylan needs to widen his social circle. (Although, if those two survive the series and get the hell away from there, I won't be disappointed.)

Anyway, with two more seasons,

Norma and her beau can still suffer the same fate with Vera Farmiga still on the show with the Mother hallucinations. That could be interesting to watch Norman after for a while...but difficult to keep the rest of the cast involved.)

I was hoping Caleb would change his mind and do the run for Dylan since he was the one who was originally going to do it, but the thought didn't seem to cross Uncle Daddy's mind...yet. I guess gun running could be a very special father/son bonding experience.

Loved the beginning.

Uh, Norma, bad song choice...

[rue721]

I don't think that Annika was better looking than Norma. They're both gorgeous women, but I actually prefer Norma's looks. YMMV.

 

Plus, I think Annika seemed too young for Romero. Of course, some men have a thing for dating much younger women, but I don't think that Romero seems like the type. He's so cranky and he likes bickering/bantering with Norma too much, and he also seems to like when she "mothers" him, too. He seems like he'd want someone at least his own age/stage of life. (No idea about Nestor Carbonell, though, obviously).

 

Also, despite her funky sense of style, I think Norma is actually pretty sexy. It's mostly her personality. She's got this "vulnerable spitfire" thing going on that can be hard to resist. I'd get with that lady in a second, but of course, I have ~mommy issues~ myself :P LOL

[peacheslatour]

I agree^^^^^^^^^  Norma is beautiful and sexy, plus she's really screwed up which some men find incredibly hot.  Romero seems like he has a hero complex and Norma is very much a damsel in distress.

Edited April 26, 2015 by peacheslatour

[green]

It'd be highly illegal to move donors up a transplant list, and the fact that Emma's father tossed it off like that kind of made me balk, then also wonder if it was a con.  But I think it's just 'creative' writing, to be honest.  I think in reality Emma's age would have her high up on the list and like someone else said she'd be living near a hospital in a large city, in preparation.  I don't know much about it, though.  Good luck with your kidney!  

 

I thought the father made it clear that the "donation" was actually a bribe to a corrupt doctor in charge of the transplant list at the hospital to bump someone up on said list.  We know some rich people have done stuff like this already in real life.   It's been on the news before.  The Japanese mafia-equivalent Godfather and several others had whole stories on magazine shows about how they got their organs in America using the bribery / bump up method.

 

They better not tell Emma about her new lungs (IF this crazy scenario plays out) because who would want their life being saved with the knowledge that someone else dies in their place instead.  Someone who deserved their chance at life just as much and did everything the right way but died because they suddenly got bumped down the list and died waiting.  Someone like Emma may want to live obviously but to do it at such a cost would destroy something in her forever since she seems the only real good and ethical person on this show.

 

But given how crazy this show is I'm surprised they didn't go with harvested organs instead of a bribe scenario.  Given how off the charts weird this town is I would have imagined that they have abandoned the old and past it's time pot business and have entered the organ harvesting business instead by now.

Edited April 22, 2015 by green

[fuzzysneakers]

Hey fuzzysneakers ! We have a turtle named Gunner. My husband found him in the desert (He has a deformed foot, Gunner, not my husband) 28 years ago, and he's been hanging with us ever since. I don't know how he reacted to that line, he's still hibernating, but I plan to tell him!

 

Hey Mick Lady ! You made my day! Big wave from one Gunner mommy to another :)!

[Guest]

Whether it's called a donation or a bribe, it's illegal.  I don't know what would make someone running the scam think this immigrant taxidermist from Twin Peaks would either pay it or just keep it to himself and presumably let his daughter die while richer people got her lungs.  

[BigBlueMastiff]

 

Hee! The moment of the episode for me is a toss up between this and Romero and Norma taking a moment out of their bickering to acknowledge the stupidity of the name Gunner.

 

Gunnar is a cool name y'all, if you're into Norse mythology:

 

From the Old Norse name Gunnarr which was derived from the elements gunnr "war" and arr "warrior" (making it a cognate of GÜNTHER). Gunnar was a character in Norse legend, the husband of Brynhild.

 

 

No comments on that final scene with Norman and Norma, ewwww... He is really freaking me out, he seems so close to a psychotic break. The scene with the therapist was perfect.

[Guest]

When they mention Gunner here my mind usually first briefly flashes to the Gunnar on Nashville, since he gets more air time.  And I still somehow think of this Gunner as cupcake boy.  

[Avaleigh]

How did Norma not wake up? Unless she'd had a lot to drink you'd think she's be alert given the things they've been dealing with lately even taking Norman out of the equation for a moment. 

 

Also, what the hell does Norman think he's doing? Whenever he's blacked out it typically hasn't been in a creepy sexual way. That last scene I thought Norman seemed like he was dangerously close to masturbating and that's just so beyond the pale I feel like Norma would have to have him committed straight away if she caught him masturbating while looking at her while she's fucking sleeping. In Norman's mind how would he have explained that? He tells James that James said an "ugly" thing to him so it's not like he's deluded himself into thinking that sex with his mother could be okay under the right circumstances or anything. He knows it's fucked up and wrong which is a large part of the reason for why he freaked out on James. At the same time it seems like he's willing to take his obsession to the next level by staring at and touching Norma while she's in a nightgown. Then in the previews for next week

we see that Norman is fantasizing about getting Norma out of her dress

so clearly the sexual element to the situation is escalating. 

 

James was really wrong for not giving her specifics about Norman's issues, I don't care how awkward or embarrassing it is. Not when people's lives are at stake.

[Sakura12]

I don't think it was awkward or embarrassing for James, I think he was scared for his life. I kind of wanted him to say "Your son is a psycho" 

[Avaleigh]

I don't think it was awkward or embarrassing for James, I think he was scared for his life. I kind of wanted him to say "Your son is a psycho" 

Even more of a reason for him to clue her in. If this guy is just barely managing to get away from their house with his life then what does he think will happen if Norman loses his shit on his mother? 

 

I got the impression that he didn't say anything because of the way Norman threatened him as far as losing his license because of sleeping with Norma. 

[turbogirlnyc]

Unfortunately, I haven't seen the episode yet. I do want to say that I totally agree about Norma's hair this season. She's still a beautiful woman but that haircut... just no.

I finally watched Finding Neverland on Netflix a month or so ago. Although I've seen Freddie Highmore in Willy Wonka, I was truly blown away by his performance in Finding Neverland. He was so young and fantastic in the film that I truly believe he has a natural gift. In fact, I think Johnny Depp may have recommended him for the role of Charlie in Willy Wonka. I'm speculating, of course, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case.

Anyway... I hope to catch a repeat of this week's episode soon!

[Sakura12]

I just saw that the shipper name for Dylan and Emma is Dylemma. Which is kind of awesome. 

[P-Fat]

Another bone to the Psycho viewers-Norma quotes of Norman Bates' famous lines from the movie "we all go a little crazy sometimes".

[methodwriter85]

 

When they mention Gunner here my mind usually first briefly flashes to the Gunnar on Nashville, since he gets more air time.  And I still somehow think of this Gunner as cupcake boy.

 

      What exactly do you mean by cupcake boy? You mean Nashville Gunnar?

[truthaboutluv]

I think the poster is referring to the fact that when Gunnar first met Emma, he gave her a cupcake she didn't know was laced with marijuana and it gave us the hilarious sequence of high Emma. 

[Guest]

Yes, and he got referred to here as cupcake boy some, if I recall.  

 

Nashville Gunnar is more like ManPain Boy.  

[SometimesBites]

The episode was all kinds of awesome.

 

• Caleb is just OFF. His looks creep me out and his delivery is oddball, but the guy can actually act...at least, he can turn on the tears.
• LOVE that as everyone gathered for supper, the entire house was VERY brightly lit! Every lamp. Every chandelier. Every wall sconce--not just on, but made to look excessively bright. Haloed, as a matter of fact.
• Agree with earlier poster that the race is on for Norman's first human taxidermy project.
• Sorry, but if my only child could probably get a life-saving transplant for $20,000, I would make that happen tout de suite. $20,000 isn't chicken feed, but sheesh, sell some shit. Take out a line of credit. I don't think gun-running is really necessary?
• I LOVE Chick/Opie! Like all the characters on this show, he plays the weirdness to a razor-sharp edge. The knee socks kill me every time.

[Timetoread]

I was reading and found this story:  https://www.yahoo.com/health/the-bravest-person-i-have-ever-117098399627.html

 

It made me think of this show and what an accurate portrayal it is giving of severe mental illness.  What drew me to this show is that it seemed to let Mother off the hook for somehow CAUSING Norman to be crazy.  What keeps me is showing the progression of his demons.  I find myself so sad when Norma notes that "he can't help it" and is therefore not really responsible for his actions.  There is truth to that, but that does not negate that he is dangerous and we know, in the end, that she made the wrong call with him.  But this story shows, sometimes even the right calls end in tragedy.

[tennisgurl]

I swear, I spend half the show yelling "Take him to a hospital, Norma! Right now"! Norman has really clear, increasingly obvious mental health issues, that need to be addressed! I mean, I know they wont, but still. 

 

Emma and Dylan are super cute, but Dylan and Norman really need to stop flirting/awkwardly dating the same girls. 

 

Again, its really clear that Norman has issues, his family has a history of mental illness, and now Norma is fully aware of how bad things are. If she had just gotten him some help...

 

I can buy a decent amount of men being into Norma. She is a really lovely woman, questionable hair choices or not, and has a kind of "wounded, but tough" vibe that I bet would be attractive to a lot of small town types. 

 

Just trying to explain the relationships between everything at that table requires a flow chart, and at least a few shots of whisky. 

Edited April 24, 2015 by tennisgurl

[Ralph Dundee]

I finally watched Finding Neverland on Netflix a month or so ago. Although I've seen Freddie Highmore in Willy Wonka, I was truly blown away by his performance in Finding Neverland. He was so young and fantastic in the film that I truly believe he has a natural gift. In fact, I think Johnny Depp may have recommended him for the role of Charlie in Willy Wonka. I'm speculating, of course, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case.

 

Actually, Johnny Depp did recommend Freddie. Here's a bit from the wiki article on Finding Neverland.

 

"Highmore's performance in this movie led Johnny Depp to suggest him to Tim Burton for Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, in which Highmore played Charlie Bucket and Depp played Willy Wonka."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finding_Neverland

 

And yes, Freddie is magnificent in everything he's in.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Ralph Dundee

[WordFreak]

Thanks, BigBlueMastiff, for bringing up the story of the name Gunnar. That was my grandfather's name, and he just happened to have Norwegian ancestry. I always thought it was kind of a cool name, so I had to laugh when Norma and Romero were saying what a stupid name it is. 

 

Anyway, what a great episode this was - I especially enjoyed the dinner scene. So many layers of meaning in that scene. This show just keeps getting better and better.

[missy jo]

Was the dinner the first time the whole cast was together?  I bet they had fun in that scene.

 

 

Nice observation. I didn't catch that.

 

^And some of us aren't convinced he killed Watson anyway.

 

 

Really? I was clear on it back when it happened, but I remember reading some speculation back then (maybe on TWoP?) that maybe he didn't do it. But IMO, if there was any doubt, they clarified it for sure in later episodes. Now I'm going to have to dig around to see if the show runners intended for it to be ambiguous or not.

[Fable]

I think it's canon if you can take the Inside The Episode seriously.  I personally do but I guess it is all up to interpretation. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UturBDUkuxs

Edited April 30, 2015 by Fable

[ganesh]

I'm not calling bs if Norman did kill Watson, but the way the flashback was shot and the circumstances upon which Norman "remembered" leave ample wiggle room. And I'm not trying to be That Guy just to be contrary. I think there's a few others that share the opinion. 

 

I don't have any problem with it being ambiguous. TPTBs post-comments on social media are like eyewitnesses in court: highly unreliable. 

 

I totally believe Bradley blew that guy's head off. You know why? It was abundantly clear from the scene. So if they flashback, and someone was peeping in the window and watched Norman slash Watson's throat open, nbd. But going from strictly Norman's highly stressed shakey flashback pov? I just don't see that as definitive proof. 

[OSM Mom]

What did the note say that was pinned to the guy who will never be sheriff?

That's what I want to know too. Anyone know?

[editorgrrl]

Someone asked what was pinned to the body in the car in the driveway. A note that said something like, "I officially withdraw from running for sheriff!" Ha.

I think it said, "I officially withdraw my candidacy for sheriff."

Edited May 1, 2015 by editorgrrl

[DittyDotDot]

I'm not calling bs if Norman did kill Watson, but the way the flashback was shot and the circumstances upon which Norman "remembered" leave ample wiggle room. And I'm not trying to be That Guy just to be contrary. I think there's a few others that share the opinion. 

 

I don't have any problem with it being ambiguous. TPTBs post-comments on social media are like eyewitnesses in court: highly unreliable. 

 

I totally believe Bradley blew that guy's head off. You know why? It was abundantly clear from the scene. So if they flashback, and someone was peeping in the window and watched Norman slash Watson's throat open, nbd. But going from strictly Norman's highly stressed shakey flashback pov? I just don't see that as definitive proof. 

 

Yep, I share this opinion. I was convinced Norman killed his father before the show reveled it and I whole-heartedly believe Norman capable of doing of killing Mrs. Watston, but from what we were shown of it doesn't convince me that he did. I'm not going to cry fowl if it is shown to be true that he did, I just need more convincing if that is indeed what did happen.

Edited May 3, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[ganesh]

That's an even better case. There's absolutely no debate that Norman killed his father.

[peacheslatour]

Who would have thought that a blender could be such a deadly weapon.  I have not been able to look at my blender the same way since.

[truthaboutluv]

That's an even better case. There's absolutely no debate that Norman killed his father.

Except many people have challenged this just as some challenge his killing Ms. Watson because the only confirmation we have of it, is Norma's confession. Many posters said repeatedly in the first and second season that "Norma lies all the time" so we don't know that Norman really killed his father. We've never been shown Norman truly remembering murdering his father and Norma's recount was shown in something of a hazy, sleepy way.

Similarly, I remember some didn't believe Norman and Bradley slept together either and thought that was all in his head as well. I mean sure, I guess one can argue that nothing we've seen so far is real and it's all been in Norman's head and I'm not being sarcastic, I swear, just saying that sure, if one wants to enough you can question pretty much everything that's happened on the show.

With regards to Ms. Watson, for me it really comes down to this - if Norman didn't kill her, then who did? Because it's clear the writers have all but moved on from her death and some random nutjob she was dating being the murderer would hardly be of interest to the viewers. And if Norman didn't kill her, then what was the point of creating the mystery around it in the first place and ultimately making it look very much like he did kill her? Because again, the season ended on the cliffhanger where viewers didn't know if Norman had killed her or not and it took pretty much all of Season 2 to answer the question, that yes he did.

So what then would be the writers' purpose of that answer being a complete lie - just to show that Norman was slowly descending into madness, but viewers didn't need to see Norman maybe murdering Ms. Watson to achieve this. We'd seen the blackouts, seen him killing his dad (if you believe that was real) and accidentally killing Cody's dad, his trying to hurt Caleb and Dylan in a blacked out state, even his channeling "'Mother" when talking to Bradley after she told him she wasn't interested in him and of course the constant creepiness with Norma.

I'm just not sure what the point would be of having a murder that takes up the entire season, that culminates in Norman being shown as the killer and his getting off, only to then have it be "well no, he actually didn't kill her, some random person did but we just threw that part in to mess with viewers." But of course YMMV.

Edited May 3, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[DittyDotDot]

To me, the point was that Norman believed he murdered her and created his "Mother" persona to help him deal with it. Who actually murdered Miss Watson really doesn't matter to me, how it affected Norman is, though.

[ganesh]

That's where I'm coming from. The show is essentially a tragedy. We know how it ends. We've seen Norman fairly well adjusted in high school. *If* Norma did this instead of that, if Norman wasn't buried in a box, if Romero wasn't a dirty cop, etc. 

 

Mother was triggered due to his severe mental duress. Since then, we've seen stronger and stronger hallucinations. Norman's more and more unhinged. I just don't think he did it, and I think that's actually a better outcome because it's another tragic step on the path of Norman. The scene shot the memory in a deliberately ambiguous way in comparison to any of the other killings on the show so far. I don't know why. Watson had plenty of people mad at her that might kill her. 

 

I am extremely doubtful that there's viewers who think Norman didn't kill his father. That's the scene the entire show is built on. 

[DittyDotDot]

Maybe it's just the twisted side of me, but I actually find it more interesting and kind of absurd--and this show is nothing if not absurd (in the best possible way)--to have Norman become what he does become largely based on a belief in something that isn't real.

[ganesh]

That makes perfect sense to me and what I think the show is kind of about. 

 

By the time Norman gets to actually kill (father aside) it should be what puts him past the point of no return. For me, it should only be one person, pyscho, Norma, end show. 

[truthaboutluv]

To me, the point was that Norman believed he murdered her and created his "Mother" persona to help him deal with it.

But that's just it...Mother was already coming out and already there before Norman took that polygraph. The scene when he talks to Bradley and she rejects him is the first clear sign of it, when as he's walking away from her, he repeats the words Norma had said to him previously about Bradley, in exactly Norma's voice. I remember it clearly because it creeped me the hell out.

And in the last scene with Norman and Ms. Watson, before we see him running in the rain, having blacked out, Mother appears to him when Ms. Watson is undressing. She is the one saying that Ms. Watson is clearly undressing deliberately for him and what kind of woman is she that she would bring a teenage boy to her place and undress with her door open and that Norman knew what he had to do. In my opinion, that was there specifically to show the dissociation was already happening. In other words, he killed Ms. Watson because Mother told him he had to and when faced with the polygraph, she came out to take the blame for it because again, in his twisted, fucked up mind, it was her telling him to do it.

I am extremely doubtful that there's viewers who think Norman didn't kill his father. That's the scene the entire show is built on.

You would be surprised. Much as you question the Ms. Watson murder, there are some who question anything Norma has said and again, the only proof of Norman's murdering his father comes from Norma's account of it. I mean I absolutely believe he did it but yes, many don't.

Back to Ms. Watson, again I guess this will always be a YMMV, but here's how I see the situation and why I think Norman very much did murder her:

One, the writers didn't need the flashback or hallucination (if you see it that way), of Norman killing Ms. Watson to get him to the point of having Mother come out during the polygraph and his thinking he killed her. Romero's getting proof of Norman's semen in Ms. Watson confirmed if nothing else that he had sex with her, something that he didn't remember either because again he blacked out on everything from him walking in the rain and later running home. So in other words, Romero having confirmation he slept with Ms. Watson that night would have made the polygraph test happen because honestly that's the only reason Romero was questioning Norman. And flashbacks of the sex while kidnapped would have been enough to traumatize and confuse Norman and wonder if maybe he killed her. Because that's the whole point, he had no recollection of even being in her house that night. So I guess for me, the writers showing Norman not just getting flashes of having sex with Ms. Watson but full on slitting her throat, was unnecessary to accomplish what they were trying to, if he didn't do it

Yes, Norman was under duress when he remembered what happened with Ms. Watson, but this season, while not as bad, but still stressed, when he was very upset thinking Norma suspected him of killing Anika and he went into his catatonic state in the water, he never remembered killing Anika. We see him have flashes of driving the car, her looking at him, him staring at her body and flashes of Ms. Watson and her body that night and his killing Ms. Watson again but nothing about him killing Anika. And well now we know, he didn't Anika after all. To me that was telling that as upset and agitated as he was, there was no recollection of harming Anika which means he didn't do it and so further convinces me he did kill Ms. Watson.

Finally, the culmination of Ms. Watson's murder in my opinion made sense. When we meet Norman in season 1, he is actually still at that point pretty normal. But from early in the season and throughout we see already the beginnings of his psychological issues with sex and sexuality and battling the whole Madonna/Whore complex thing, all of which was not helped by Norma and unhealthy attachment to him. And everytime he tried to do something normal, something horrible ended up happening to Norma, likely cementing the "wrong and bad" ideas in his head about sex. When he snuck off to the party to hang out with Bradley and her friends, Norma gets attacked by Keith Summers. When he goes and has sex with Bradley and spends the night, Norma gets arrested. So more and more, all these disturbing and unhealthy ideas are building in him. Then there was the whole sex slave trade thing that freaks him out to the point of him passing out in class. So you combine all of these disturbing, unhealty feelings with Ms. Watson completely inappropriately hitting on him and Mother's voice in his head telling him how wrong it is (which let's face it it was) and how Ms. Watson is not a nice girl and needs to be punished and so he kills her. Makes perfect sense to me. But again YMMV.

Edited May 4, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[DittyDotDot]

But that's just it...Mother was already coming out and already there before Norman took that polygraph. The scene when he talks to Bradley and she rejects him is the first clear sign of it, when as he's walking away from her, he repeats the words Norma had said to him previously about Bradley, in exactly Norma's voice. I remember it clearly because it creeped me the hell out.

 

Either way, it doesn't really matter to me if he did actually kill her or not; it's the fallout and the stress of what her death does to Norman that matters. Whether Norman did or didn't kill her changes little, IMO; I just don't think they did a good job of selling me on the idea he did. And, because I'm twisted, I prefer the idea of him thinking he did when he didn't. But, as I've said many times, I'm a bit of a weirdo, so...

 

 

You would be surprised. Much as you question the Ms. Watson murder, there are some who question anything Norma has said and again, the only proof of Norman's murdering his father comes from Norma's account of it. I mean I absolutely believe he did it but yes, many don't.

 

I was sure Norman killed his father from the first scene of the show. Didn't need Norma's account of it to be convinced of it, just to fill in the details of how. That's the difference, for me, with Mrs. Watson. But again, me being a bit of a weirdo...

[ganesh]

The father and Watson are two separate issues. I think over at the other place, we were all nearly unanimous from episode 1 that Norman killed the father, and then later we got the flashback to confirm it. Even though Norma isn't a reliable narrator, she was telling Dylan, who experienced a blackout scene, and he and Norma were getting to the point where they were having a more civil relationship. iirc. It's about context. 

 

It's just seems to me that it's more classically tragic if Norman didn't actually kill Watson. It's much more twisted and fits the narrative of Norman's descent far better for me. 

 

I don't think TPTBs played fair with the audience with Watson. In general, this is the problem with modern tv watching. TPTBs sometimes do things imo to make the viewers talk more about the show than what the show is about. Or we're talking about what TPTBs were thinking, etc. If they didn't know the show was renewed at the time the scene was shot, they maybe wanted to make it ambiguous, and leave us in the finale with Mother helping him pass the polygraph. 

 

Just taking in the killings on the show, in context, Watson's was the only one shot very differently than the others and presented based on Norman's extreme duress. I think it was a deliberate choice, but I'm not sure why. 

[truthaboutluv]

TPTBs sometimes do things imo to make the viewers talk more about the show than what the show is about. Or we're talking about what TPTBs were thinking, etc.

 

 

Or sometimes viewers just see things differently and interpret it in their own way. In other words, it's entirely possible that the show runners weren't trying to confuse anything and really do think they made it clear that Norman killed her but he's not fully conscious of it because he already began disassociating, which is why Mother showed up take the blame. Clearly, some have a much different interpretation but I don't know that necessarily that's what they were going for.

 

It is entirely possible the only reason they only had Norman remember what happened under such extreme duress is because the theory is often that people who have complete black outs only remember what happens when their mind is fully altered in some way - for most people it's hypnosis, therapy, etc. In a way it would make sense that in a panicked, extremely stressed period, Norman's mind was able to remember parts of that night he couldn't remember or didn't want to remember in a much calmer state. 

 

Finally, I'll also add, that I remember some also thought during Season 1 that Norman and Bradley didn't have sex after that episode initially aired. The reason was because of how it was shot. There was a dreamlike quality to the whole scene with the light blue/white light and the sheets making them look almost ghostlike. It wasn't until Bradley herself, when telling Norman she didn't see him that way, stated that sleeping with him was a mistake that some seemed to accept that it had happened. I'm only saying that because I understand the point that there was something almost dream like in how they showed Norman remembering slitting Ms. Watson's throat, but that's not the first time the director had employed that on the show. 

[ganesh]

Exactly. We interpreted the scene differently. No one's calling bs if Norman actually did it. Some of us took the scene as highly subjective for what I think are plausible reasons.

Bradley/Norman was discussed at the other place, but later the show did confirm that they actually had sex iirc so I don't think the comparison is apt.

I'm not seeing what the big deal is. The scene looked different to me. Norman isn't going to be indicted and I don't think Romero cared enough to follow up on the case.

[truthaboutluv]

I'm not seeing what the big deal is.

 

 

it isn't. I was simply responding to the comment about the showrunners doing things that have people talking more about the show than what it is about and I interpreted that to mean that they sometimes deliberately do things to confuse the audience and get them talking and throwing many theories (which yes many writers do). And all I was saying was that in this instance, maybe they really didn't think they made it ambiguous and that wasn't their intention, but clearly some still saw it that way.

 

Bradley/Norman was discussed at the other place, but later the show did confirm that they actually had sex iirc so I don't think the comparison is apt.

 

 

The comparison was in regards to the comment that the way the scene with Norman killing Ms. Watson was shot, added to the ambiguity of it and it not seeming real and likely a hallucination by Norman. My point is that was actually the same reason some were convinced Norman hadn't slept with Bradley because of the way the scene was shot but turns out they really did have sex. So my point then is the show has employed the dream like cinematography for things that really did happen. Even the scene of Norman killing his father was a bit sleepy and dream like, I thought. And the thing is, to me, that makes perfect sense because Norman is usually sort of removed from himself in those moments - he definitely was when he killed his dad and Ms. Watson.

Edited May 4, 2015 by truthaboutluv