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Sherri Shepherd: "Is the Earth flat?"


springtime
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The man should man up. When I divorced, I shared physical custody with my ex. Neither of us requested child support from the other. My ex was a decent person who happened to make a lot more money than I did. However, I had to up my game and seek a better job, which I did, to improve my living situation for when my child lived with me.

 

My child grew up knowing that both parents did their best and that neither of us wanted anything but what was best for our child. I have been castigated by many for saying that I didn't request child support or alimony because my ex was better off than I was. I consider it to have been one of the best decisions I ever made as an example to our child that both parents, barring any detriments that were beyond our control, loved and cared enough to want to provide the best we could and that we were both willing and able to do so. My daughter grew up knowing that she had to make a place for herself in this world, that nothing is guaranteed and so she best be prepared academically and career wise to take care of herself.

 

I know that doesn't work for everyone because of special circumstances. But for me, i wanted to set an example of being able to be independent and respectful of each other no matter why our marriage ended. She has grown into a wonderful adult who outearns her father and me at the age she is now compared to us at that age. Couldn't ask for more.

 

What a great example Sal could set for his son if he only chose to do so.

  • Love 6
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Whichever article that said who filed for divorce first had the first shot.  But Sal only filed for the separation while he was waiting to declare California residency to file for the divorce.  Sherri filed for divorce first.  Such a sticky wicket.

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Thanks for that link. I hadn't seen it before. It says they entered into the Gestational Carrier Contract on November 18, 2012. That's about a year before the surrogate got pregnant with this soon to be born baby.

And more than a year after the wedding. So basically she's claiming now that he was playing a very long con to make a baby, divorce her and bilk her for child support, and that she never suspected a thing even after living with him for more than 2 years before the child was even conceived.

Ok then.

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Thanks for that link. I hadn't seen it before. It says they entered  into the Gestational Carrier Contract on November 18, 2012. That's about a year before the surrogate got pregnant with this soon to be born baby.

November 11, 2012 is when they purchased their home in NJ and created a limited partnership (LLC) called Hopes and Dreams...

http://www.bergendispatch.com/Property/property.aspx?id=0201%7C2201.01%7C1.03

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I also think Sal never served Sherri properly with his separation papers (the court can't begin deciding anything until all parties are served), and that should put him behind Sherri's divorce filing in NJ. As noted above, considering that they mostly lived in NJ for their marriage, NJ seems the most fitting state to decide these issues.

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 For Sal to complain that Sherri no longer wants anything to do with the baby after he allegedly stated in court documents that he wants primary custody of the child with Sherri getting little visitation (and for her not to interfere with him taking custody at the time of birth) is making it seem like he is just in it for the money. Either you want her in the child's life or you don't. He's apparently in cahoots with Jeff Sr to make Sherri seem like a terrible mother, so if he really felt like that, he should be glad she apparently doesn't want anything to do with it.

 

Excellent points!!!! 

 

I don't really think Sal sat back and planned this - I truly don't (Sal doesn't strike me as that big a mastermind) . I think they met, fell in love and planned an addition to their family like normal people do. 

I don't know what happened in their marriage but I do feel Sal got comfortable to having a larger amount of money at his disposal and the fame of Sherri's celebrity and doesn't want to give it up. I say that based on his behavior whenever I saw him appear with Sherri on The View - he seemed to relish being on camera and the attention. He came off as loud and boisterous despite the fact that he did nothing to gain interest other than marry Sherri. I think that was what made me give him a few side eyes, something just did not seem right about that to me. 

I do feel at this point he wants to maintain a comfortable lifestyle now and the means to that is to have Sherri finance it. 

Personally, I think he should cut his losses and raise this baby as a single dad. His wanting Sherri to have no part in this baby's life other than be a walking pocketbook seems grimey to me. 

  • Love 6
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There's so many possibilities. One could be everything was great until it really hit Sal that he was going to be a father. Boom! Perhaps the lifestyle was appealing but who he had this lifestyle with was not. Maybe he didn't like what he saw in the person who would be parenting along with him. Who knows just what went on as far as parenting in his eyes, and he wanted out.

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Honestly from what we have seen in public I think Sherri paid too much attention toward other men. Wasn't there a time when the breakup seemed to have happen where Sherri went to Georgia to hang out with the "Housewives"? If anyone has seen those shows, there is a lot of cattiness going on. Sherri seems like she would fit right in which could have been the last straw with their marriage. I wonder if any of the stories will come out in court.... and will those stories be able to be believed??

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There's so many possibilities. One could be everything was great until it really hit Sal that he was going to be a father. Boom! Perhaps the lifestyle was appealing but who he had this lifestyle with was not. Maybe he didn't like what he saw in the person who would be parenting along with him. Who knows just what went on as far as parenting in his eyes, and he wanted out.

Well that would be pretty cold-blooded. Essentially he'd be saying "Your money's good enough for me. You not so much." Nice. Just like those gigolos going after lonely widows, he played Sherri like a fiddle, IMO.

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My personal belief and this is just my opinion, I think Sal met Sherri, saw an opportunity for a better life financially and took it.  I'm not saying he didn't care for Sherri at all but his behavior while they were married leads me to believe he enjoyed the lifestyle being married to her provided but he didn't necessarily enjoy being married to her.  As far as the baby is concerned, they both seemed to want a child.  Although Sal was the one who was dead set on it being a boy.

 

We will probably never know what really happened to cause the marriage to fall apart but IIRC most of us didn't believe this was ever going to be a happily ever after.

 

If any good can come of this I hope it's that the baby is loved and well taken care of no matter who is raising him.

 

And also hope Sherri learns that you DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE A HUSBAND to be happy.  Maybe just maybe she will realize having a man doesn't and shouldn't define you.  I sense that Sheri thinks a woman not having a man makes her failure.  I truly do hope she takes this experience to heart and makes better decisions in the future.  If not for  her sake then for Jeffrey's.

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I don't know if Sherri really wanted this baby or more like Sal was gungho on having a male baby, so in turn Sherri was.  Anything to make her man happy - ya know her great advice of dropping to her knees... and not in prayer - hee. 

 

Also I was thinking that all the times Sherri was out of town working - those were jobs Sal as her manager set up, weren't they?  I'm just not sure that Sherri's whole part in the marriage was keeping her huzzbin happy.

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Maybe I'm wrong but I thought Sherri had talked about wanting another child even before she met Sal.  I do remember her saying the frozen embryos from her first marriage weren't an option because she shared those with her first  husband and he was unwilling to let her use them.

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Yeah, that's what she SAID.  I hated having the thought, but I did think then that she wanted a "normal" baby.  She could have had lots of babies if she hadn't aborted them.  Ok, on the hell-bound express - hee.

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Yeah, that's what she SAID.  I hated having the thought, but I did think then that she wanted a "normal" baby.  She could have had lots of babies if she hadn't aborted them.  Ok, on the hell-bound express - hee.

 

 

 

Save a seat for me Catty Tiger.  The thought crossed my mind also.  And another thing that I wondered about.  Whenever Sal would say he wanted a son did Sherri ever say, "Hey Sal, you already have a son, Jeffrey."?  My husband wasn't my son's biological father but he loved him and treated him as if he was.  I wonder if Sal even considered Jeffrey as anything other than a kid that lived in the house.

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(edited)

Sal must be back in NJ awaiting the baby's arrival, because I don't think there are any White Castles in CA:

 

Sal @SalfromtheD  ·  30m
I know I will regret eating White Castles later but my God they taste so good right now.

 

ETA:  Yes, no locations in CA.

Edited by LuckyBitch
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No, Roger I don't think so.  Now I can only go by what I've seen and heard since he came into Sherri's life but that has been more than enough for me to form my opinion that Sal is content to do as little as possible.  As far as I can tell he didn't have a job while married to Sherri. Didn't seem to take care of the household affairs since  he would complain about things needing done while Sherri was away working.  Was adamant that he wanted a son, not a daughter.  And now wants child support for a child with the mother having limited visitation.  So yes Roger I think Sal warrants every word of criticism thrown his way.

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@RogerFromOhio, I'm not criticizing Sal, just posting what he tweeted.

 

Frankly, I don't think Sherri is any better than Sal. Actually, I think she is the more despicable one. They BOTH willingly entered into a surrogacy contract yet she reportedly has changed her mind and wants nothing to do with the baby. At least Sal is honoring his contractual (and moral) obligation. Sherri is a f-cking pig as far as I'm concerned. 

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No, Roger I don't think so.  Now I can only go by what I've seen and heard since he came into Sherri's life but that has been more than enough for me to form my opinion that Sal is content to do as little as possible.  As far as I can tell he didn't have a job while married to Sherri. Didn't seem to take care of the household affairs since  he would complain about things needing done while Sherri was away working.  Was adamant that he wanted a son, not a daughter.  And now wants child support for a child with the mother having limited visitation.  So yes Roger I think Sal warrants every word of criticism thrown his way.

I'll tell ya susieq147 that description sounds like a lot of wives in America..... and most women get custody of a child in a divorce and demand child support. Many people have a preference of a child too... that doesn't make them a bad person. I don't have kids but I would have liked to have had a daughter.

Sherri may not be biologically involved in the child.... but I'm sure there were adoption papers for this child. It is her child and she wanted it before the divorce. Sherri is far from a victim in this case

Oh... and just a little snark.... It is legal to eat at White Castle.

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Roger, let's be clear.  I am not criticizing Sal based on his gender. I am criticizing his behavior.  And I have criticized Sherri quite often also.

 

And it might be legal to eat at White Castle but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

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I could care less if Sal eats at White Castle. What makes the tweet interesting is he is making it known where he is (or actually where he isn't). It's just like Sherri and her not disabling "location" in her tweets. She does now, but she sure didn't in the past.

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Sherri may not be biologically involved in the child.... but I'm sure there were adoption papers for this child. I

 

 

I think adoption papers have to be drawn up (at least signed) after a child exists...is born.

Is there anything that Sal could say or do that doesn't warrant criticism??

 

 

Hmmmm....let me think about that.  We know only what he and/or Sherri decided to "publish," and I can't recall anything positive.

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Whenever Sal would say he wanted a son did Sherri ever say, "Hey Sal, you already have a son, Jeffrey."?  My husband wasn't my son's biological father but he loved him and treated him as if he was.  I wonder if Sal even considered Jeffrey as anything other than a kid that lived in the house.

Jeffrey had a father who was involved in his life. I don't think anyone pretended that Sal was anything other than a stepfather, which isn't a bad thing. He could have been an awesome stepfather if he chose to be. I just hate the idea that he only wanted a son - did they do selection to make sure that they were having a boy? What if the donor's eggs and Sal's sperm (ewwww...) produced a female embryo? 

 

Frankly, I don't think Sherri is any better than Sal. Actually, I think she is the more despicable one. They BOTH willingly entered into a surrogacy contract yet she reportedly has changed her mind and wants nothing to do with the baby. At least Sal is honoring his contractual (and moral) obligation. Sherri is a f-cking pig as far as I'm concerned.

Wasn't this just a "sources say"? I don't know if we've heard anything official from Sherri or her attorney (if we have and I missed it, I apologize in advance). 

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(edited)

Wasn't this just a "sources say"? I don't know if we've heard anything official from Sherri or her attorney (if we have and I missed it, I apologize in advance).

That's why I used the word "reportedly".

ETA: If you look back on my other posts castigating Sherri, I try to always say something like, "if this is true..", or "allegedly", or "reportedly", etc.

I guess we'll see soon.

Edited by LuckyBitch
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Frankly, I don't think Sherri is any better than Sal. Actually, I think she is the more despicable one. They BOTH willingly entered into a surrogacy contract yet she reportedly has changed her mind and wants nothing to do with the baby. At least Sal is honoring his contractual (and moral) obligation. Sherri is a f-cking pig as far as I'm concerned.

Time may prove me wrong, but I don't think Mr. Sally is doing anything from anywhere that resembles the moral high ground. I agree that he is "honoring" his contractual obligation, yes, but why wouldn't he when its enforcement ensures him 18 years on Easy Street? I mean, most people don't burn a winning powerball ticket either. I personally believe that family courts frequently screw decent men over left and right when it comes to alimony and child support. But my gut and my perception of his actions tell me Sal is not one of those decent men. YMMV.

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(edited)
I wonder if Sal even considered Jeffrey as anything other than a kid that lived in the house.

Or Sherri as anything but a bank account. 

 

Is there anything that Sal could say or do that doesn't warrant criticism??

@RogerFromOhio, I think Sal needs to STFU and stop broadcasting his business.  The only reason anyone, outside of his mother, cares what he's doing is because of Sherri. 

 

By the way, I totally get your point about gold diggers. Besides this trash, I have a fondness for the Real Housewives shows, of which are cast with about 50% pure gold diggers - all who have kids right away to secure their futures. One former RH of Orange County even had two kids via surrogate and ended up with something like $50 million in her divorce (no pre-nup, lol)   So yeah, it goes both ways. 

 

In the same vein, there are plenty of wives who gave up their youth and careers to support their husband's career, had kids and end up screwed financially when the husband decides he's done with the marriage.  I think that happens more often than husbands being taken to the cleaners actually but I couldn't prove it. 

 

But just because women have done it probably forever, doesn't make it okay that Sal is trying it.  It sounds to me like Sal really only wants a child if it came with a bank account otherwise he wouldn't make such a big deal about trying to get Sherri to pay.  He would woman up and get a damn job and support himself and his kid.    Something I've always felt everyone, man or woman, married or not,  should be prepared, able and willing to do by the way. 

 

In my opinion, if Sal had any dignity or paternal instinct at all he would raise his child without Sherri's money and let her go instead of putting stuff out there like she doesn't want this child. Sherri has never said that or even indicated it from what I can tell - that's all Sal - putting that crap out there for his child, his child!, to see someday; that his mother didn't want him. 

 

The whole thing is a colossal mess and I'll be interested to see how it shakes out legally.  But meanwhile, I think he just needs to stay off social media and start looking for a job. 

Edited by Cosmocrush
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We will never know the reasons why either Sal or Sherri wanted this baby. Since he is moments away from being born, that doesn't even matter anymore. The fact is they both went to great lengths to create a baby and neither one should be able to walk away from it like it's a science experiment they're no longer interested in.

 

I don't understand why Sherri gets a pass by some because it's not her egg. If there were no surrogate and Sherri was carrying the baby herself, (created with a donor egg), would people be okay with her popping the kid out and then handing him over to Sal so she could completely step out of his life for good?

 

Or, what if the baby was born before they filed for divorce? If they were still living together when the surrogate had the baby, and then split up while they were still in the process of finalizing the adoption papers, would it be okay if Sherri said, "Hey forget about it, it's not my egg, I'm outta here"? 

 

I think its completely reprehensible to plan a baby for years, find a surrogate, enter into a gestational carrier contract, and then walk away from it because you changed your mind due to a change in life circumstances. 

 

For all we know, Sherri calculatingly dumped Sal when she did because she realized the marriage was in trouble and thought she better get out before that baby is born so she can dump it too. It's like she caught a lucky break because her eggs were bad and they used a donor. Using a loophole like that is sleazy as hell.

 

I'm wondering what the gestational carrier contract states because the more I think about it, I realize these contracts probably have provisions covering what would happen in the event the parties divorce or split up before the baby is born. 

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I don't see any good way out of this for Sherri.  If Sal gets primary custody, she pays him child support.  If she gets custody, I don't see how she will be able to maintain her travel/work schedule with a newborn baby.  There are probably other outcomes but I don't know what they are. Any

 

As an aside, I was reading an article yesterday from 2013 where the writer asks Sherri  to finish this statement: **** If I was on a deserted island, I’d bring… Idris Elba, well, if I wasn’t married. Well, Idris Elba. Some food and some really good music. Oh, and my son Jeffrey. He’s an honorable mention.   (Sherri's response.)

 

The same question was asked of Taraji P. Henson.  Her response:  "my son–how many people can I bring? I’ll bring three people. With the right people, you can make the right things happen. My son, my best friend and my mom.

 

I'm sure she thought this was funny, but it is part of a pattern that she exhibits all the time.  Everything is not a joke.

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I was a little curious so looked this up: 

 

On the third day after fertilization, when embryos have reached 6- to 8-cells, one of the cells is removed from the embryo, to be analyzed for its chromosomal makeup. (The removal of the cell at this stage does not negatively affect the embryo's growth competency.) This chromosomal analysis allows us to determine whether the embryo is male or female. Then, only the embryos of the desired gender are transferred to the uterus.

 

So with in vitro, apparently there is no having to wait to do any sort of test.  The sex of the embryo is known before implantation.  And what, the other's are just dumped, or is Sherri paying to save all HIS babies as she is paying for hers and Jeff's?  Crazy.

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What Sherri is allegdly doing isn't quite the same as abandoning the baby. She is giving up her parental rights to allow the baby to be raised by a man who already loves the baby and wants to raise him. (It's not that much different then a woman giving up her baby for adoption to a family that really wants to love and raise that baby). In this instance, she's giving him to a single father. Abandoning the child implies that there will be no one to raise him as soon as he is born, but that's not the case. Sal as already said that he wants to raise the child (and in fact, doesn't want Sherri to have much to do with him).

I'm not saying that I agree with what Sherri has alledly said, but to accuse her of child abandonment, may be a bit harsh.

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Sal as already said that he wants to raise the child (and in fact, doesn't want Sherri to have much to do with him).

This, by itself, is all kinds of crazy. Would any judge go along with that - Sal raises the money [OMG, is that a Freudian typo???], Sherri pays, but she has no contact with the child? I know there are some strange judges out there, but I can't imagine that anyone would be sympathetic to that. If Sherri pays, she should have input in the raising of the child, how money is spent, etc. 

 

Also, she may be liable for child support, but they were only married a few years - will she have to pay spousal support for 18 years? (She shouldn't have to pay Sal past the few years when the child is very young.) I don't think he'd be awarded a lifetime on Easy Street. 

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Well, from what I've read in just a quick search, she would at the very least be in breach of the gestational contract. There are specific contracts for this situation, where the father is genetically related and his wife is the "intended mother" because they used an egg donor.

 

I hate to think what stress this situation has caused the pregnant surrogate for the last few months of her pregnancy. Not exactly good for the baby's health.

 

Imagine being this kid and finding out the circumstances of your birth later in life. Dad was an unemployed loser married to a fairly well off "celebrity", they planned the surrogacy together, but a couple of months before you were born they split up, the woman who was supposed to be your mother and had fully intended to be your mother walked away because she didn't want to pay child support.

 

Any woman who would do this is a cruel, selfish, repugnant bitch. This child didn't ask to be created and born. Two adults brought this about through a lot of planning and medical help. They produced this child, however it was done, and they both should be responsible for it. 

 

She needs to grow the f-ck up and take responsibility for what she caused. The best situation for her both personally and career wise would be to move back to CA. That way Jeffrey could see his father more without flying back and forth across the country all the time. And, Sherri and Sal could share custody of the child they both created and presumably both wanted. The problem is that her new life as a single woman on the prowl for the next huzzzbin doesn't fit well with having two children by two different men, one of those children being an infant.

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Frankly, if all of these allegations about Sherri are true, I think she can kiss whatever she calls a career good-bye.  The optics are SO bad that people won't even want to look at her.  OTOH, this may be just a tactic that her lawyer(s) are recommending & she is forced to STFU.  Just sayin'.

 

I think Sal will drop that baby like a hot rock if it doesn't come with a meal ticket for him.

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(edited)
Im pretty sure it is illegal to abort an embryo based on sex..... no one is saying that is what happened... but it seems that is being implied

 

 

If I live in a jurisdiction where abortion is legal, must I have a reason: logical, humanitarian, crazy, cruel?  I don't know of any restrictions other than time.  

Edited by Former Nun
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Since Sherri knows the facts, I have to wonder what her take on this situation would be (with the facts, requiring research!!) about a different couple while she sits at the "Hot Topics" table. It's a part of Sherri I do not appreciate. I know she's paid to speak her view but she does it with a high and mighty tone the majority of the time, imo.

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We will never know the reasons why either Sal or Sherri wanted this baby. Since he is moments away from being born, that doesn't even matter anymore. The fact is they both went to great lengths to create a baby and neither one should be able to walk away from it like it's a science experiment they're no longer interested in.

I don't understand why Sherri gets a pass by some because it's not her egg. If there were no surrogate and Sherri was carrying the baby herself, (created with a donor egg), would people be okay with her popping the kid out and then handing him over to Sal so she could completely step out of his life for good?

Or, what if the baby was born before they filed for divorce? If they were still living together when the surrogate had the baby, and then split up while they were still in the process of finalizing the adoption papers, would it be okay if Sherri said, "Hey forget about it, it's not my egg, I'm outta here"?

I think its completely reprehensible to plan a baby for years, find a surrogate, enter into a gestational carrier contract, and then walk away from it because you changed your mind due to a change in life circumstances.

For all we know, Sherri calculatingly dumped Sal when she did because she realized the marriage was in trouble and thought she better get out before that baby is born so she can dump it too. It's like she caught a lucky break because her eggs were bad and they used a donor. Using a loophole like that is sleazy as hell.

I'm wondering what the gestational carrier contract states because the more I think about it, I realize these contracts probably have provisions covering what would happen in the event the parties divorce or split up before the baby is born.

Sherri gets to "walk away" if she can prove this was fraud from the beginning. If LS entered into the marriage with the SOLE intent to financially ensnare Shepherd for child support as far as I'm concerned... She is off the hook.

What rare fool would go through with adopting a baby in this situation? And so many make it sound as if they had brought the child home and a few weeks later Shepherd walked away. That would be different. The baby is still unborn and Sherri's absence in its life will not be some great tragedy. Seriously {jmho} it is foolish to expect her to claim that baby knowing what she knows now.

Sherri has as much connection to that child as I do. As any of us. And? If the rumors I have read on other msg boards are true..that the surrogate is an "old friend" of LS and Shepherd didn't know, well...that's interesting.

All Sherri Shepherd can do is what I'm going to do. Wish that baby well. With his parents.

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It seems to me a couple trying invitro would be pro-choice because of the selective means used to try and ensure the number or sex. But, imo, here we have Sherri that has had more abortions than she can count becoming anti-abortion lately. Except, or so it seems, in this case. That is the part that disturbs me along with her commitment to this particular child that she has forsaken.

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This, by itself, is all kinds of crazy. Would any judge go along with that - Sal raises the money [OMG, is that a Freudian typo???], Sherri pays, but she has no contact with the child? I know there are some strange judges out there, but I can't imagine that anyone would be sympathetic to that. If Sherri pays, she should have input in the raising of the child, how money is spent, etc. 

 

Also, she may be liable for child support, but they were only married a few years - will she have to pay spousal support for 18 years? (She shouldn't have to pay Sal past the few years when the child is very young.) I don't think he'd be awarded a lifetime on Easy Street.

I can't imagine she would be on the hook for alimony due to duration of the marriage, but stranger things have happened.

Easy Street is all relative. If Sherri is worth 10 mil and Sal is unemployed and chooses to remain so, he could live quite comfortably on the typical court-mandated 20 percent of the non-custodial parent's earnings. Enough to beat teaching for a living anyway.

  • Love 2
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Since Sherri knows the facts, I have to wonder what her take on this situation would be (with the facts, requiring research!!) about a different couple while she sits at the "Hot Topics" table. It's a part of Sherri I do not appreciate. I know she's paid to speak her view but she does it with a high and mighty tone the majority of the time, imo.

This would be "so funny."  I'd like to hear that - can't help believing she'd be totally high and mighty.  Ha!

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If Sherri is worth 10 mil and Sal is unemployed and chooses to remain so, he could live quite comfortably on the typical court-mandated 20 percent of the non-custodial parent's earnings.

 

I do believe worth and earnings would be two separate issues. Considering Sherri is no longer employed on The View, the earnings have changed. No? Yes?

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(edited)

I do believe worth and earnings would be two separate issues. Considering Sherri is no longer employed on The View, the earnings have changed. No? Yes?

Yep, her earnings will have changed and given the nature of her career, her earnings are probably all over the map. But she's clearly the bread winner and I * think * a court-ordered support agreement would be based on past and potential earnings as well as accrued wealth. Kind of like Tom Cruise can't skip or reduce Suri's child support payments because he's between movies. But I don't actually know any wealthy, divorced celebrity parents, so I'm really just spit-balling here. :)

Edited by Milk-Eyed Mender
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On the third day after fertilization, when embryos have reached 6- to 8-cells, one of the cells is removed from the embryo, to be analyzed for its chromosomal makeup. (The removal of the cell at this stage does not negatively affect the embryo's growth competency.) This chromosomal analysis allows us to determine whether the embryo is male or female. Then, only the embryos of the desired gender are transferred to the uterus.

This is all so amazing to me. I remember back in 1989 I had two friends - second-time mothers in their late 30s - who found out the second child they were carrying was the same sex as the first one. Both mothers said, to paraphrase, "of course we'll be happy with whatever we get, but I/we really wanted a boy/girl." It struck me so sad that the babies were a disappointment before they were even born. 

 

I know, that's such "last millennium" thinking. I'm a dinosaur.

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