S04.E19: Sympathy For The De Vil

[Rumsy4]

Okay, I thought I was just imagining that scene. So Rumple was stalking Hook in the woods, then. Interesting. I'd halfway assume that would lead to a scene where Rumple captures Hook, takes his heart again, and forces Hook to be his puppet and say some things to Emma that would influence her onto the path of darkness. But because Hook has only been in approximately 15 seconds of each episode since his centric, I doubt that scene actually meant anything.

 

I think that was just meant to show that Rumple was behind the conch-shell magic. I liked someone's theory that Rumple is unwilling to get his hands dirty, because one more murder will make him full on Beast. That's why he needed the QoD to act as his minions or whatever.  

[MadyGirl1987]

After seeing multiple people talking about how mean and troublesome dalmatians are, I have to say, as someone who grew up with a dalmatian as the family dog and now has a dalmatian/dachshund mix(she is actually in my profile pic), I just have to say that they are not that bad. While they can be high energy, and deafness(which can make a dog fearful and on edge and cause violent reactions) has a high prevalence in the breed, with good training and exercise they can be great family pets. Just saying... :)

 

That said, apart from the Emma ending (only in this show would someone killing someone holding their kid at gunpoint, by a cliff no less, be a sign of going dark), I liked this episode. I thought the Cruella back-story was intriguing and the reveal she was the killer was awesome. I actually liked her and the author together. Sad she's gone, but hopefully she will be back in flashbacks....

 

Also; loved Regina and Hook trying to talk to Emma about her parents. I could actually agree with what all three were saying. Loved Emma's snark about Regina's vendetta against a 10 year old's mistake.

[Shanna Marie]

Also; loved Regina and Hook trying to talk to Emma about her parents. I could actually agree with what all three were saying.

It's also consistent with Hook's characterization. Back in 3B, he was the one constantly trying to get her to want to stay with her family and trying to make her see what her family meant to her. It seems that family is a big trigger for him, possibly because he can't imagine having any family at all and not wanting them to be in his life, possibly because his family is so long-gone and he knows he'd give anything to get another chance with them. It would be nice if we ever got any additional insight into that, but I recall that Colin said something on the season 2 DVDs about how the one thing he brought from his own life to the character of Hook and the thing he most related to in the character was the serious homesickness. He was in a strange land, away from his family and friends, and that's how he saw Hook, feeling very much alone in the world. He seems to bring that to every situation with Emma's parents, like it really bothers him to see her rejecting them. It has nothing to do with what they actually did to her, but is more like "but ... but you have parents!"

[KingOfHearts]

 

It has nothing to do with what they actually did to her, but is more like "but ... but you have parents!"

Reminds me of Emma and Lily. (Unfortunately...) Emma couldn't believe Lily for complaining about her horrible parents.

Edited April 21, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

One of my issues with Regina and Hook trying to talk Emma into forgiving her parents (or Regina's case of shaming her into it, which STFU Regina) is not so much with the scene itself but that it comes on the tail of Snow having just said that despite what they did and saying they made a mistake because they're human, they also just said "it was worth it." So...they don't regret it. Snowing, basically, is sorry that they lied to Emma about it, but not that they actually changed Emma's very essence and sacrified an innocent baby to do so. So why would Emma forgive them when they just said to her "Worth It!".

 

I know Regina wasn't privy to what Snow said, but Hook was there and heard it himself. So in that scene with Regina and Hook, the writers are pointedly ignoring what Hook heard Snow say in the loft just so they can make Emma out to be the bad guy for not forgiving Snow and Charming, and oh jeepers, evidence of her darkness. Oh noes, Snowing don't regret what they did and Emma won't forgive them! *GASP* Emma must be going evil!!!  Oh, FFS...this is all just so stupid.

[YaddaYadda]

I know Regina wasn't privy to what Snow said, but Hook was there and heard it himself. So in that scene with Regina and Hook, the writers are pointedly ignoring what Hook heard Snow say in the loft just so they can make Emma out to be the bad guy for not forgiving Snow and Charming, and oh jeepers, evidence of her darkness. Oh noes, Snowing don't regret what they did and Emma won't forgive them! *GASP* Emma must be going evil!!!  Oh, FFS...this is all just so stupid.

 

I wish they'd give Hook a POV on this or just show his face when Snow is standing right there saying that kind of stuff.  I'd like to think that he wants her to forgive her parents for her and not for them.  If anyone understands anger and acting on it and slipping slowly (or quickly) into darkness, it's him.

 

Also, Snow, I don't recall if they apologized for what they did, but apologizing for it and then saying it was worth it means nothing.

[Shanna Marie]

I'd like to think that he wants her to forgive her parents for her and not for them.  If anyone understands anger and acting on it and slipping slowly (or quickly) into darkness, it's him.

Based on the context of other things he's said, I suspect that might be it. Like, he didn't counsel Emma about how she reacted to seeing Snow be executed because the execution wasn't a bad thing, but because going into darkness would be bad for her. He's already worried because he knows it's Rumple's plan to send her into darkness, and here she is sinking into bitterness and anger. She can't change what was done. The only thing she has any control over is how she reacts to this news, and by refusing to deal with her parents, he may fear that she's playing right into Rumple's hands. So it's not really about Snow and David at all, but about what's best for Emma.

 

Plus, as Emma-centric as his worldview is, and as ruthlessly pragmatic as he tends to be, I'm not sure that he feels like anything done for Emma's benefit is all that bad a thing.

[YaddaYadda]

So how old was Cruella anyway?  1920s, she must've been something like 25, that means she's 100 years old or something.  I know that they used Lily's dragon egg shell to stay young, but what about before?  There are a lot of unanswered questions with Cruella.  I guess killing her off is easier than explaining how she got to the EF, where she left the car, how she stayed so young for more than 50 years, because she fell into the portal less than a year before the Dark Curse happened.  She used the egg 30 years ago.

Edited April 21, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[FabulousTater]

I'd like to think that he wants her to forgive her parents for her and not for them.  If anyone understands anger and acting on it and slipping slowly (or quickly) into darkness, it's him.

And that's great and I get it, but how long did it take Emma to actually forgive Hook (and Regina)? Definitely more than one day -- It sure as hell didn't happen overnight. And yet overnight insta-forgiveness is basically what everyone wants from Emma right now in regards to Snowing. From what I can tell she just learned their secret the day before, but since she's still angry and hasn't forgiven them the very next day (and badgering people for forgiveness always helps - not!) then it's surely a sign of her evil.

 

Emma has a perfect right to still be angry, especially since it's only been a day and Snowing just told her they think it was worth it, but the show is instead playing it up as a sign of her slipping into darkness. It's ridiculous and annoying because it's just contrived for the sake of the Dark Emma plot. Just like protecting her son by launching Cruella over a cliff because she was holding a gun to her son's head and threatening to kill him is suddenly a sign that she's going dark. Pfft...gimme an effing break.

Edited April 21, 2015 by FabulousTater

[YaddaYadda]

It's ridiculous!

 

Well to be fair, this show is ridiculous.  She's angry, but this is also a trust issue.  She may stop being angry with them eventually, but will she trust them like she used to before?  No one is really talking about this.  It takes 5 seconds to break someone's trust and a long time to rebuild it.

[FabulousTater]

She's angry, but this is also a trust issue. She may stop being angry with them eventually, but will she trust them like she used to before? No one is really talking about this. It takes 5 seconds to break someone's trust and a long time to rebuild it.

I agree. It is a huge trust issue and one that should fundamentally change everything between them from here on out. But seriously, it's TS;TW. We're probably not talking about whether she'll ever trust them again because these writers don't do lasting consequences, especially those between Emma and her parents...and any problems between them they usually blame Emma for it. Judging by how everyone is on Emma's back about not forgiving Snowing right now, the writers will probably have Emma begging Snowing for their forgiveness and trust before the end of the season.

Edited April 21, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Shanna Marie]

So how old was Cruella anyway?  1920s, she must've been something like 25, that means she's 100 years old or something.

My impression was that she wasn't from our world in the 1920s, but from some story world where it's eternally the 1920s. If you went there now, it would look like the 1920s, just as the Enchanted Forest seems stuck in some quasi-Georgian era with a dash of medieval and hasn't changed since Rumple and Hook's day.

[YaddaYadda]

My impression was that she wasn't from our world in the 1920s, but from some story world where it's eternally the 1920s.

 

But that doesn't make sense because Cruella was shown to us as a child and they even made a point to show that her mother had aged with her grey hair and lines and all.  It may be the 1920s all the time, but people have clearly aged in that "realm" or whatever.

[Shanna Marie]

It may be the 1920s all the time, but people have clearly aged in that "realm" or whatever.

The people age, but the world doesn't change. Their 1920s may have been happening during our 1970s and are still happening.

 

Though I don't know why they needed to try to talk about them not recognizing the passage of time. Since they show the Enchanted Forest world as having been more or less the same for centuries, we could have accepted that there's a world where it's permanently like the 1920s.

 

I'm still wondering how Cruella got the car through various portals. Is her current car the same one we saw in the flashback? Because we saw her getting sent to our world, and she didn't have a car with her. Or did she maybe go find a car like the one she used to have once she came to this world?

[FabulousTater]

But that doesn't make sense because Cruella was shown to us as a child and they even made a point to show that her mother had aged with her grey hair and lines and all.  It may be the 1920s all the time, but people have clearly aged in that "realm" or whatever.

I think because the show is saying that the 1920s culture is part of the fabric of Cruella's realm. Like being black & white and steampunk-ish was the state of Dr. Frankenstein's/Whale's world or how in our world there's no naturally occuring magic.

 

It's like there are universes where their culture is a fixed state. I think it's a bizarre choice storywise....it makes it so that even if people in those worlds change or grow, their society doesn't reflect that growth, which I find counterintuitive. People learning and growing and changing makes society and culture change and vice versa. Then again, Wonderland is perpetually insane and no one cares, so whatever.

 

Though I don't know why they needed to try to talk about them not recognizing the passage of time. Since they show the Enchanted Forest world as having been more or less the same for centuries, we could have accepted that there's a world where it's permanently like the 1920s.

Ya, honestly, I think the writers are talking out their butts. They liked the term "pocket universe" and the word "timeless" (because fairytales/stories are "timeless") and thought they sounded genius by slapping the two concepts together, and also shot themselves in the foot by saying that the people of story realms have no concept of time because they don't know what year it is. Like, what? Just to have music they must know about time and that it's passing. One of the basic parts of music is rhythm and thats based on beats per minute! See, writers? A MINUTE which is a measurement of TIME!

Edited April 22, 2015 by FabulousTater

[YaddaYadda]

Yeah, I give up.

[Dani-Ellie]

Just to have music they must know about time and that it's passing. One of the basic parts of music is rhythm and thats based on beats per minute! See, writers? A MINUTE which is a measurement of TIME!

 

Time is very relative. When you're busy, sometimes time seems to fly by, and when you're bored, time seems to drag. Or how, if you typically work Monday through Friday, having a Monday holiday throws off your whole week. There was an exhibit at the Museum of Science in Boston where you hit a button and you were supposed to hit it again when you thought one minute had passed. My friend hit it after 30-something seconds and I hit it after 40-something seconds, the whole point being that time is very difficult to judge unless you have standardized equipment like calendars and clocks and stopwatches and hourglasses to help you judge it.

 

I don't think they're saying there's no concept of time, just that time passes and people in those lands don't really keep track of it, much like Storybrooke under the curse. There were days and weeks and months and years but because of the time loop aspect of the curse, no one but Regina noticed that twenty-eight years had gone by.

[Mari]

I think I missed something.  When did Maleficent find out her daughter's name?  She knew it in this episode, and I cannot remember at all when she found that out.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think I missed something.  When did Maleficent find out her daughter's name?  She knew it in this episode, and I cannot remember at all when she found that out.

She found it out in Best Laid Plans. Rumple showed Lily's father adopting her as a baby and naming her.

[FabulousTater]

Time is very relative. When you're busy, sometimes time seems to fly by, and when you're bored, time seems to drag. Or how, if you typically work Monday through Friday, having a Monday holiday throws off your whole week. There was an exhibit at the Museum of Science in Boston where you hit a button and you were supposed to hit it again when you thought one minute had passed. My friend hit it after 30-something seconds and I hit it after 40-something seconds, the whole point being that time is very difficult to judge unless you have standardized equipment like calendars and clocks and stopwatches and hourglasses to help you judge it.

 

I don't think they're saying there's no concept of time, just that time passes and people in those lands don't really keep track of it, much like Storybrooke under the curse. There were days and weeks and months and years but because of the time loop aspect of the curse, no one but Regina noticed that twenty-eight years had gone by.

Well, first, no one in Storybrooke aged during the Curse, not even Regina, so the cursed had no physical evidence to say time passed even if they could remember it passing. Time was literally stopped for the cursed in Storybrooke.  And second, they were all cursed to not realize that they were stuck in a groundhog day time loop. The only person that realized something was crazy is Henry because he realized he was aging and yet no one else did and that no one could remember their pasts. So I don't think that's the same as what the show writers are implying here with the story realms being "timeless" and I don't think that's the reason they are using for why Cruella doesn't know what year it is. In the story realms the writers seem to be saying that people literally don't know what year it is even know they they've aged and are aware of aging. That's nonsense.

 

Sure time is relative because of personal perceptions and if we're talking quantum mechanics, but it's not without a zero point. Einstein's relativity refers to different observers measuring the duration of the same event and coming up with different results because time is dependent on nonstatic variables. It doesn't mean the observers of said event have no concept of time passing and therefore have no idea what time it is. Relativity doesn't mean timeless.

 

Magical or not and based on what we've seen, for people in these realms time is perceived and acknowledged as passing so they aren't timeless. If a magical army wants to plan a raid, they all have to know at what time and day. So there must exist an agreed upon understanding to differentiate each day and count days, so they must have a basic calendar to mark the passage of time even if it's only days. These people eat food and unless food just magically appears on their plate they must have farmers. For farmer's to know when to plant crops they must know the right time of year, so they are aware of months passing. To send kids to school or to deem them as adults, they must know they've reached the right age, so these people are aware of years and decades passing. So the show is telling me that they can count years and decades (perhaps centuries) passing, but as a society they don't know what year it is? That's preposterous. It's silly that these universes would mark all these other things with time (Music, people's ages, the time of day, seasons, etc.) and yet no one knows what year it is and don't have some universal agreed upon starting point, a zero point, with which they measure that time. It's ridiculous.

 

(Ya, ya, I know this show is ridiculous and their worldbuilding is crap, so this shouldn't surprise me, but when the writers start talking this degree of stupid it irks me...more than usual.)

Edited April 22, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Camera One]

The other thing which is weird is that Emma pushing Cruella off the cliff could very well have happened even if the Snowing secret arc had never happened.  The secret was clearly supposed to be a story device to push Emma closer to "darkness", but what difference did it make in this episode?  Are A&E saying if Emma had not been on edge with that, she wouldn't have done what she did at the end of this episode?

[Dani-Ellie]

The difference that it made is in Emma's mindset. Right now, she can't trust that her choices have been her own. The one thing she's always been proud of is that she'd pulled herself up by her bootstraps and made lemonade out of the lemons life handed her. That she is who she is because she wants to be. And now that's all in question with Snow and Charming telling her they did something to her in utero that changed the very nature of her being. Right now, Emma is questioning if she ever had any free will at all.

 

Any descent into darkness is not a walk off a cliff. It's a slide. It's multiple things, and the person's reaction to multiple things. Killing Cruella did not make Emma evil, and I don't think the show is saying that. What I do think they're saying is that Emma is on a dangerous path right now, one that could lead to the darkness everyone fears. It's a whole bunch of things, a perfect storm that's been brewing for a while now (like I said in another thread, I've been waiting for an epic Emma meltdown since at least the middle of season two), and calling into question Emma's very identity is central to her crisis of faith.

[tennisgurl]

 

And with Hook, it would be like killing two birds with one stone because it helps drive Emma into darkness and he just straight up hates the guy. In fact, why doesn't Rumple just kill Hook at any time?

When Rumple started going on about wanting to corrupt Emma, I assumed he would eventually try to kill Hook. Maybe he wants to do it at a more dramatic time? Half of the evil back stories on this show involve the death of their significant other. It seems like its much less convoluted than this whole Author/Cruella/whatever plan. Just dramatically kill Hook in front of Emma somehow. Now, he has a dead enemy, and a grief stricken, enraged savior ripe for some corruption. Now, I don't WANT that to happen, at all, as a big fan of Hook, Emma, and Captain Swan, but I cant believe he hasn't tried yet.

 

But Rumple does love his convoluted plans. I mean, he enacted this multiverse spanning, centuries long web of manipulation to get to the Land Without Magic, when he pretty much could have just asked a mermaid for a ride. Guess he cant resist a challenge. 

[whyjoshua]

But that doesn't make sense because Cruella was shown to us as a child and they even made a point to show that her mother had aged with her grey hair and lines and all.  It may be the 1920s all the time, but people have clearly aged in that "realm" or whatever.

This show.

 

ETA: I made a point and then noticed you already made it in a previous post. Ignore!

Edited April 22, 2015 by whyjoshua

[Rumsy4]

Maybe people aren't aware that they seem to be stuck in a single era. It would be a boring realm because of the lack of innovation and change, but that might explain what was meant by "timeless". :-p

[Camera One]

Maybe "timeless" refers to ambiguous set design and costuming.  I know ABC says 1920s, but the technology seems a bit later than that.

[The Cake is a Pie]

I'm still wondering how Cruella got the car through various portals. Is her current car the same one we saw in the flashback? Because we saw her getting sent to our world, and she didn't have a car with her. Or did she maybe go find a car like the one she used to have once she came to this world?

I'm going to go ahead and fanwank that she and Ursula landed by a lake or something when they fell through the portal and she asked Ursula to reach through realms to grab her car so they could have transportation. Then they drove off with the egg, leaving baby Lily in the woods.

I'll just ignore the fact that Ursula could have returned to the EF herself whenever she wanted.

[kingshearte]

Although I'll admit that I was kind of hoping for an "all three queens of darkness get their happy endings and then come back and deal with Rumple" storyline, the "Cruella is a straight-up psychopath" thing was definitely a fun twist. She was totally my favourite of this season's baddies, though, so I'm sorry to see her killed off.

 

As for that killing, ugh. Agree that killing someone who's holding a gun to your kid's head is 100% justified, and in no way a flip to the dark side. Maybe it's just supposed to be a step, but (a) if it was supposed to be a slow, gradual, step-by-step flip, she should have taken that first step many episodes ago, and (b) that dark cold stare at the end totally looked like an "I've just unequivocally gone over to the dark side" stare to me. We'll see, I guess.

 

Also, the idea that she's being totally unreasonable for still being pissed at her parents is completely ridiculous. We know she'll forgive them eventually, but good lord, she has the right to be mad for a while. At least she called Regina on the hypocrisy of expecting her to forgive a deliberate act within 24 hours after she held a grudge for an accidental act for decades. I also thought her attempted justification for forgiving Hook & Regina but not her parents was a little silly. Why not simply point out that those two have never betrayed her personally, while her parents have now done so? Some might argue that being angrier about a personal betrayal than about mass murder is self-centred, but I'd call it pretty human. Especially as, like I said, we know she will forgive them in time.

 

And finally, I'm kind of torn about the Regina-Belle-Rumple bit. I went from yelling at Belle's idiocy in being taken in by him to cheering for her revealing that she was just playing him to being squicked out that she was just being used yet again. I hoped that maybe Regina was in charge there with Belle's permission, perhaps because Belle knows that, even though she shouldn't be, she could still be susceptible to Rumple, and having Regina in charge would make sure she didn't do anything stupid. But I think Regina sending her off with the instruction to forget the whole thing suggests otherwise, and I don't like that both because it sucks for Belle to be someone's puppet again, and because it's just one more thing we're supposed to just accept from allegedly reformed Regina.

[RadioGirl27]

 

As for that killing, ugh. Agree that killing someone who's holding a gun to your kid's head is 100% justified, and in no way a flip to the dark side. Maybe it's just supposed to be a step, but (a) if it was supposed to be a slow, gradual, step-by-step flip, she should have taken that first step many episodes ago, and (b) that dark cold stare at the end totally looked like an "I've just unequivocally gone over to the dark side" stare to me. We'll see, I guess.

Emma's stare at the end was the way the writers/director/actress used to reinforce the idea of "she did something bad", "she has darkness inside", "OMG, she is going dark". Probably because they realised a bit too late that what she had done was justified and they needed to make people think it wasn't. That's why A&E have done those interviews repeating that "Emma has crossed a line", etc.

Edited April 22, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[FurryFury]

That's why A&E have done those interviews repeating that "Emma has crossed a line", etc.

God,  it sounds so stupid, I can't help but want to bang my head against the wall (or, preferably, Adam or Eddie's head). There are characters on network TV that have done worse and still managed to remain heroes. I mean, just look at season 2 of The 100, for example. How can Emma killing a villain endangering her son be something unforgivable? I really feel like the show has crossed the line itself, to writing that doesn't make sense unless you're Regina apologist who thinks she can do no wrong and Emma's the worst just because she's the hero.

Edited April 22, 2015 by FurryFury

[Shanna Marie]

On just about any other TV show, Emma sending Cruella over the cliff would have been a Crowning Moment of Awesome. There's hardly a week that goes by without at least one cop show having a scene in which the hero cop saves the day and the hostage by shooting the hostage taker. If you take a child hostage, hold a gun to his head, and demand that someone else be murdered, you don't generally get a lot of sympathy, whether or not your gun is actually loaded.

 

I wonder, was Cruella capable of getting the dogs to kill for her? She might not be able to give a direct kill order, but if she said attack, then never said to stop and the dogs just went at it once they got started, she wouldn't be the one taking the life. So, theoretically, Pongo could have killed Henry.

 

And what was Emma supposed to do, even if she knew Cruella couldn't kill? Lunge for the gun and hope Henry didn't also get knocked over the cliff if Cruella lost her balance? On a darker, more complex show, they'd have had Emma assume that Cruella couldn't kill, and then at that split second the Author would have torn up or burned that paper, and the ability would have come back, so Henry would have been shot. But that's the risk and why you err on the side of caution. Back to our hero cop, he's not going to assume anything. If there's a gun in play, even if he's been told that the gun isn't loaded, he's still going to shoot because he can't take the risk that the gun got reloaded or maybe has a round still somewhere in it, and even a blank can be deadly at that close range.

[FurryFury]

On a darker, more complex show, they'd have had Emma assume that Cruella couldn't kill, and then at that split second the Author would have torn up or burned that paper, and the ability would have come back, so Henry would have been shot.

 

God, I'm almost elated just thinking about it. But killing children is something even cable shows don't do often. I still remember the BSG revival mini-series and Caprica Six murdering a toddler (one that would have been killed in a matter of minutes anyway, but still). That was a really iconic moment, especially because the murderer herself eventually got a happy ending.

 

Of course, if the show were smart, Henry would have been just injured, not killed, which would teach Emma to be more ruthless in the next such situation. Which is when she would actually cross the proverbial line. Oh well...

Edited April 22, 2015 by FurryFury

[FurryFury]

I doubt anyone would applaud Emma's character assassination, as much as some of us hate Henry.

[Mitch]

"

 

Time is very relative. When you're busy, sometimes time seems to fly by, and when you're bored, time seems to drag. Or how, if you typically work Monday through Friday, having a Monday holiday throws off your whole week. There was an exhibit at the Museum of Science in Boston where you hit a button and you were supposed to hit it again when you thought one minute had passed. My friend hit it after 30-something seconds and I hit it after 40-something seconds, the whole point being that time is very difficult to judge unless you have standardized equipment like calendars and clocks and stopwatches and hourglasses to help you judge it.

 

I wanted this to kind of be the way the curse worked for Storybrooke, that people never came to stay in Storybrooke because they (with the help of the Curse if they got close) never thought of it as anything more then a boring back woods town, and no one ever left as they thought..this is how I have always lived why would I go? I lived in a small town and really it is like time stops and the outside world is closed off. But really, this show has to make everything so much more confusing and simplistic at the same time.

 

I think the explanation to this Story world time never changing is, maybe none of these characters are real until they actualy get sucking into our world. They are all just characters the Author thought up and he could jump in and out of stories like realms, but they dont' take real human form until they come to our world? Is that the twist...you all didn't exist so all of those things in the past never happened so you are free to become what you want here?

[FurryFury]

Funny thing is, a lot of problems plaguing the show have been dealt with on Fables (which I'm sure it draws inspiration from) at the very beginning. Villains and their past deeds? There's a formal pardon that's been agreed on by all the residents. Meta stuff? Fairytale characters rise in power depending on their fame (and yes, it can be played with - on of them, Jack, actually stole some money and starred in a trilogy of films about himself so as to become more popular and consequently invincible). It really wouldn't have been hard to agree on this stuff in advance.

[Curio]

On just about any other TV show, Emma sending Cruella over the cliff would have been a Crowning Moment of Awesome.

 

No kidding. Example: Richard Harrow in Boardwalk Empire 

shooting the guy holding young Tommy at gunpoint one-handed. Bad. Ass.

 

I wonder, was Cruella capable of getting the dogs to kill for her?

 

Well, she ordered her mother's dogs to "kill," but that was before Isaac wrote that piece about her not being able to kill anyone else. I suppose getting animals to do it for you might be a loophole...

Edited April 22, 2015 by Curio

[scenicbyway]

Finally saw the episode...I liked that Cruella had an interesting back story.  I guess I wonder if Cruella's mother was telling the truth about Cruella killing off her husbands.  Cruella seemed to have no memory of killing them that we saw.  Of course, she turned the dogs on her mother, which seemed like a bad version of Cinderella choosing to kill her captor instead of forgive her.

 

If 1920's England was just somewhere in time, but in no time, how did Cruella and her mother age?!  Why did the writer show up specifically at their door?

 

As for Dark! Emma, I get that her parents lied to her and did a terrible thing. I guess, I feel like they also did a terrible thing in putting her into the wardrobe as a baby, remember they didn't know that Pinnochio was waiting on the other side.  Since the first action didn't turn her dark, why is this latest lie turning her dark?  It's also silly that protecting Henry by pushing the woman that had a gun to his chest over a cliff would turn her dark.  I would think Henry dying would've had that effect.  Her little circle of trust with Regina and Hook is also silly, since when is she such good friends with Regina? 

 

This half season is pretty hard to watch and I could care less about Maleficent's story or getting Robin Hood back in town.  I'm hoping that Zelena somehow can't come back because of the whole heart freezing thing.

[FurryFury]

I feel like they also did a terrible thing in putting her into the wardrobe as a baby

 

So what should they have done, I wonder? Leave her to be cursed/killed? They did the only sensible thing.

[YaddaYadda]

So, yeah...of all moments for Emma not to her have gun on her because she gave it to Regina.  I guess if she had used her gun, A&E would have been it's all good, but she used her magic to kill someone which a big no no unless your name is Regina or Rumple, in which case it's all good.

[John S]

NO ONE goes from being the Savior to THE most evil person in Storybrooke in just one episode. IF Emma does turn evil, it will take several episodes - possibly the season finale cliff hanger.

She is having problems with her parents. She just killed a person and showed ZERO emotion doing it. Maybe next week, she will do something else - the week after that something else, etc.

ABC has been showing a preview where Emma turns to the screen and gives an evil smile/smirk. I thought that she might show it after killing Cruella, but she didn't. That hasn't happened yet.

I realize that previews are often deceptive, so we will have to see if she turns evil or not - but if she does, no one will be able to stop her.

[Shanna Marie]

I think the explanation to this Story world time never changing is, maybe none of these characters are real until they actualy get sucking into our world. They are all just characters the Author thought up and he could jump in and out of stories like realms, but they dont' take real human form until they come to our world?

But wasn't the whole premise of the show, back when it started, that these people we know of as fairytale characters are actually real people, and there's more to the story than we see in storybooks? In fact, wasn't there at some point in the first season a voiceover intro to that effect? All the flashbacks were to show the story behind the story and how it was a lot more complicated than the fairy tales.

 

Reason number 589937721734 why this Author plot is so stupid. A show about how people we only know through storybooks are actually real people in another world who have lives more complex than can be captured in a simple storybook is a lot more interesting than a show about people who are characters whose lives can be controlled by some magical Author and who are designated as Heroes and Villains with predetermined outcomes.

 

As for why the non-human characters are human in Storybrooke even after the introduction of magic, I think that's the effect of the curse. The curse created the town and then put everyone in the form of someone who would live in a town like that. So no green skin, no sparkly skin, the spell that makes Jiminy a cricket doesn't work, etc. We did have precedent for a shapeshifter resuming the shapeshifting ability once magic was reintroduced with Red. When the curse was undone, it destroyed Storybrooke and sent everyone back home in the forms they take in their home worlds.

[Zuleikha]

And what was Emma supposed to do, even if she knew Cruella couldn't kill?

Use her magic to steal the gun away or set the handle on fire so Cruella had to drop it or magic push Cruella and then levitate her to keep her from falling. It's the classic problem of this show. Emma has powerful magic. We've seen her do powerful things with it. While her control of her magic is less defined than Regina's or Rumple's, the show's established that Emma actually uses her magic best when she's protecting someone she loves. So while a person without magic may not have had great options in Emma's situation, Emma actually had better, more heroic options available to her.

[legaleagle53]

I wonder, was Cruella capable of getting the dogs to kill for her? She might not be able to give a direct kill order, but if she said attack, then never said to stop and the dogs just went at it once they got started, she wouldn't be the one taking the life. So, theoretically, Pongo could have killed Henry.

 

Pongo would merely have been the instrument of Henry's death.  Cruella would still have been the killer because she would have been the one to bring it about by ordering Pongo to attack.  It would have been no different from Cruella pulling the trigger (or, going back to when she could kill, ordering her mother's own dogs to kill her mother).

[KingOfHearts]

Pushing Cruella off the cliff was definitely not the only way to handle the situation. However, with a gun at Henry's heart, I don't blame her for acting out what first came to mind. Like Cora's death, there was anger involved in killing her. It wasn't just saving Henry. The fact she waited until Cruella said "heroes don't kill" to do it shows me it's what set her off. That's where the genesis of darkness comes from.

Edited April 22, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[FurryFury]

Use her magic to steal the gun away or set the handle on fire so Cruella had to drop it or magic push Cruella and then levitate her to keep her from falling.

 

Do we know she can do it, though? Especially when she's really stressed emotionally? Emma hasn't had a lot of training. Her magic is mostly instinctive, and pushing is something that seems to be her default reaction. I'm pretty sure that manipulating the gun requires the level of precision Emma's not capable of yet.

[YaddaYadda]

Didn't they sort of set the stage for this to happen anyway?  Emma becomes highly emotional when she sees Hook about to be impaled by the ice, so what does she do?  She blasts Ingrid back with her magic.  The only difference now is that Cruella was standing at the edge of the cliff while Ingrid wasn't.  It's almost the same scene.

[The Cake is a Pie]

I don't agree that Emma killing Cruella is somehow less heroic than using less lethal force. She did what she had to do at the time to save Henry. Full stop. She didn't know that Cruella couldn't kill. For all Emma knew, if she took Cruella's gun, then Cruella might have just thrown Henry off the cliff.

Also, Cruella was a straight up villain. Would it have been better to let Cruella go and...do what? Try to kill Henry again? Successfully kill the Author and get her ability to murder back? How does that help humanity? It's not like they could lock her up, Rumple and Mal would just get her out.

There's not really any angle the show could take on the situation to convince me that Emma wasn't justified in her actions.

[Curio]

I think a big thing no one has really mentioned yet is that Emma was the one who stupidly agreed with Regina to allow Cruella and Ursula into Storybrooke. So if anything happened to Henry because of Cruella being inside Storybrooke, that would be partially on Emma's hands because she was the one who was responsible for letting the sociopath into town in the first place. I don't blame Emma one bit for cleaning up part of her own mess.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

In a pressure-filled situation, Emma did what she had to do. Maybe if she had a longer time to think it through, she could have neutralized Cruelle some other way. But it was a situation where a split second could have made the difference. It's illogical to expect Emma to sit and analyze the morality of her actions in such a moment. Snow had time to think over the choice to get rid of Cora (even if I don't really blame her). Emma did not.

Even if Snowing had told Emma Cruella couldn't kill anyone, it would be risking Henry's life to believe that. You have to err on the side of the caution rather than risk a child's safety. Someone threatening a child to his mother with a gun at the edge of cliff is probably looking for death by cop.

[Camera One]

Killing Cora was also intellectually very difficult to do.  No one could even approach her.  Snow would never have been able to use the strategy Emma used to kill Cruella on Cora, even if she had magic.  Speaking of which.  Why didn't Cruella have a flock of really angry birds pecking the heck out of Emma (but not killing her)?  

 

It would have been interesting to see a mind-control over animals competition between Snow and Cruella.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Camera One