Emma Swan: 1000% done with your infuriating optimism

[Mari]

Marian will die because she is out of time. She doesn't belong in SB. I don't think a character can cheat death. If they were supposed to die, I think they will.

The only question I have is what does she change in the time she is there. Any negative changes should be held against Emma, but I sure the writers will ignore it, as usual.

My initial response was sort of a howled "NOOOOOOOO", simply because I like Emma, and I don't think she should be made a villain because she saved someone's life. 

 

Most repercussions--say, Regina curses a nearby Storybrooker, or Robin has to deal with his horrible relationship and parenting choices--are not Emma's responsibility, even if a few characters are unhappy for a while.  LIfe happens, and sometimes you have to deal with the ex-wife you tried to kill (or the ex-wife your girlfriend tried to kill.).

 

But, as some have theorized, if Marian turned out to be evil, or Zelena in disguise?  Is Emma responsible at all for that?

 

My initial response is, again, "NO!", but I'm not 100% sure my Emma Bias isn't waving that flag.

[Dani-Ellie]

Intent matters. To me, saving a life is not wrong, no matter whose life it was. If Marian turns out to be evil, Emma's responsibility is to contain her so that she's no longer a threat. Emma turning around and being all, "Screw you guys, I'm going home" and letting Storybrooke deal with the evil she'd brought in would be wrong, but saving her life would not have been. To say otherwise is making Emma responsible for Marian's actions, which I don't think is fair.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Souris]

To say otherwise is making Emma responsible for Marian's actions, which I don't think is fair.

 

Agreed. No person is responsible for the actions of another. Unless, since this is Once, they're controlling them with their heart.

 

No matter what happens, I will never fault Emma for giving in to the human impulse to save an innocent woman from death.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Souris

[Shanna Marie]

I would only fault Emma if the person she brought back turned out to be evil if she'd taken after her mother and had been naively stupid -- if, say, she hadn't seen Marian taken prisoner and heard from another source what the charge against her was and instead had taken at her word the mysterious cell-mate who claimed she was innocent. Then if the woman turned out to be a con artist and serial killer, Emma might bear some blame.

 

But that's not what happened. Emma saw why Marian was arrested and Marian herself didn't even try to claim she didn't deserve to die, didn't expect Emma to save her. Emma had no reason to believe that there would be any problem with saving her. And, I'm sorry, but interfering with Regina's new relationship doesn't count as a reason not to save Marian, even if Emma had known exactly who she was, and that was Regina's only grounds for objecting, considering that she was smiling and agreeing to speak to the woman brought to the future up to the moment she learned who she was. I think knowing who Marian was would have given even more reason to save her because it would mean Roland would be reunited with his mother. Does anyone think Emma should have said, "Oops, can't save you because your husband is now dating the woman who was going to execute you and it would be a pity to break up the happy couple before their third date"?

 

If Marian really is evil or is some other evil person in disguise, then I have to say that it's the longest long game ever and a Rube Goldberg-esque evil plan to count on being arrested by Regina and the time-traveling Emma seeing this, then later getting arrested and landing in a cell with her so she could free her and take her to the future Storybrooke.

[Camera One]

I would only fault Emma if the person she brought back turned out to be evil if she'd taken after her mother and had been naively stupid

 

That exactly describes Regina's default, jumping to "Emma is just like her mother", so everything is her fault. 

 

Emma was trying to save a life, and I don't blame her one bit.  

[KingOfHearts]

I'm still suspicious of Marian. I don't buy her story - nothing about it makes perfectly logical sense. Her story is different from Robin's, and  she never even told Emma/Hook her name. A dead wife coming back to life from the past for instant happy ending is very, very fishy. There are many coincidences, like Marian being in the village Emma arrived at, being in the adjoining cell, etc. involved too. If Robin was an infamous thief in the kingdom, I have doubts they'd know Marian's name but not what she looked like. Plus if Regina was flaunting her around to villages, how did Robin not attempt to save her? The whole ordeal is just too convenient. It *could* work, but I think a Zelena shapeshift is very possible.

 

If Zelena followed Emma/Hook through the portal, she could flag down Regina and stage the whole thing.

 

(This doesn't change the fact Emma did the right thing though)

Edited August 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I'm still suspicious of Marian. I don't buy her story - nothing about it makes perfectly logical sense. Her story is different from Robin's, and she never even told Emma/Hook her name. A dead wife coming back to life from the past for instant happy ending is very, very fishy.

All these can be explained away as the writers' decisions. Backstories are retconned all the time, and OUAT is no exception to that. There's no reason why her story and Robin's story can't connect at some point. As to why she didn't say her name--the plot demanded it. The writers wanted to create drama for Regina/Robin Hood, and they contrived it, continuity be danged!

[KingOfHearts]

 

All these can be explained away as the writers' decisions. Backstories are retconned all the time, and OUAT is no exception to that. There's no reason why her story and Robin's story can't connect at some point.

 

Replying in Speculation.

Edited August 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Her story is different from Robin's,

Not really. Robin keeps saying that he put Marian in harm's way because of a job, and she died. I don't think it's a stretch at all to assume that she was horribly injured and almost died (Marian says her family thinks she's dead), was in recovery in the village, and was picked up by Regina's guards before she could make her way home.

 

I mean, obviously there could be more to Marian's story--and because the writers' permaboner for Regina can be seen from orbit around Jupiter, I'm sure Marian will turn out to be some sort of bad guy--but I don't think their stories are inconsistent at this moment. Robin just doesn't have the full story.

[KingOfHearts]

Does anyone else miss Sheriff Swan? The hard shell crime solver who didn't take crap from nobody? I really wish the show would focus more on intellect than magical deus ex machinas. Emma's great qualities shine when she takes that kind of position. Sometimes it seems like the show tries to "disqualify" her skills a lot, especially in 3B.

Edited August 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

 

Sometimes it seems like the show tries to "disqualify" her skills a lot, especially in 3B.

 

There are times in shows where a character gets diminished in some way unintentionally, but the writers for Once have done it to Emma very deliberately. It's a very, very big reason why I really hated the Regina "redemption" story line. They diminished Emma, one of Regina's biggest victims, to prop up Regina. That's wrong on so many levels. Emma is so damaged and broken and they took away everything that made her special so that a psychopathic villain could have an unearned shining moment of heroism.

 

In what I think is more of an unintentional loss of Emma's importance, they've had so much magical malarkey going on in Storybrooke that Emma is completely out of her depth in her own world, whereas Emma should be the expert on all things real world and everyone else, even with a real world download, should feel a bit off kilter. It's no wonder Emma feels so removed from everyone and everything in Storybrooke. All of her knowledge and experience is essentially worthless and certain characters never let her forget it. 

[Camera One]

She never got to use any real-world skills in Season 3.  They were basically just looking through the jungle for one thing or another in 3A and they were tracking someone or another in Storybrooke in 3B (either Zelena or Rumple).  

 

They were supposedly developing Emma's magical skills instead (though I wouldn't call one single magic lesson in 3B to be "developing", or are we supposed to count Regina telling Emma to do jazz hands with her to hide the moon).  They didn't seem to know/care whether they wanted to make Emma enthusiastic about it or not.  It seemed like a bunch of mixed messages to me.  She seemed really happy to be able to do stuff when she magicked the hook away from Hook (again, this was after one lesson, after the scene where she declared she should be all ready to fight the witch by tomorrow (take that, Harry Potter... who needs to go to magic school for 6 years)).  Yet they had Emma not even try to learn the runes in the spellbook.  Hello???  Is the Wicked Witch supposed to be a real threat or not, if you're not willing to memorize some stuff to defeat her?  It was just neglectful writing all around.  

Edited August 15, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

They were supposedly developing Emma's magical skills instead (though I wouldn't call one single magic lesson in 3B to be "developing").

And then her magic wasn't even what saved the day... it was Regina's out-of-a-hat light magic. The only time Emma ever used her magic was to save Henry from Zelena.

As for her crime-fighting skills, she used them briefly in Witch Hunt and The Tower, but all that was useless at the end of the day because it was Rumple who gave the witch's identity away. I really loved her teaming up with Regina, and then with Team Hero, because it grasped the best of both worlds, magical and physical. After Quiet Minds, this tapered off and turned into the Regina Show for the remainder of the season. (Which by the way wasn't even that entertaining of a show because it was 90% Ragdoll Regina being tossed everywhere, with Outlaw Queen sprinkled in between.)

 

Emma's toughness is always seen as a bad thing on the show, but it can really come in handy when you're dealing with crazy people like Zelena.

Edited August 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

As for her crime-fighting skills, she used them briefly in Witch Hunt and The Tower, but all that was useless at the end of the day because it was Rumple who gave the witch's identity away. I really loved her teaming up with Regina, and then with Team Hero, because it grasped the best of both worlds, magical and physical.

Yeah, you know, one of the things I really enjoyed about 3B at the start was the foursome of Emma/Charming/Hook/Regina. There are a lot of really interesting dynamics there, and everyone brings something different to the table--and one of the things I liked best was Emma and Charming playing detective, because that's a skill set that Hook and Regina don't have.

 

Basically what I'm saying is that I think the "mystery" narrative/plot structure works much better for this show than the "quest" narrative/plot structure, so I hope it's utilized more.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Basically what I'm saying is that I think the "mystery" narrative/plot structure works much better for this show than the "quest" narrative/plot structure, so I hope it's utilized more.

 

I agree. If Zelena wasn't so obvious (or she was actually a total misdirect), it would've been a more thrilling half-season. It's the mysteries the audience doesn't know the answers to that keeps viewers talking and coming back to see what's going to happen next. I know I did in 3B when I wanted to know what in the world Zelena's plan was. (As you can imagine, I was disappointed at the outcome.)

 

S1 had the same thing with the Kathryn murder. It was so obvious that Regina was the answer... but Kathryn being alive in the end kept it climactic somewhat. In both scenarios, Emma thrived. I just wish the outcomes were more investigative and less contrived.

[Camera One]

I agree. If Zelena wasn't so obvious (or she was actually a total misdirect), it would've been a more thrilling half-season. It's the mysteries the audience doesn't know the answers to that keeps viewers talking and coming back to see what's going to happen next.

 

Replying in all seasons.

[regularlyleaded]

From the " S03.E02: Lost Girl" thread:

[...]
I think the way they've written Emma is the stereotypical brooding cold hero. Rough childhood, romantic betrayal, made their own way in the world, has walls the size of the Great Wall of China, and emotionless all fits the dark hero trope. She's like Bale's Batman, or any number of heroes from those trashy romance novels, like ahem the dude from 50 Shades of Grey.  The problem is while audience finds the brooding hero swoon-worthy, it's harder to make it work in a woman. It's acceptable that men don't show emotions. That's manly and sexy. Not so much in a female character. So we don't get the emotions in the present and we don't get the past story to help us connect. They've handicapped her character every which way.

I don’t entirely agree with this. I agree that in so far as the general trope of the dark hero with the tragic background, Emma fills that stereotype. But she’s not emotionless. Watch season 1 - The Pilot episode, Heart of Gold, True North, The Heart is a Lonely Hunter, Hat Trick (to name a few) and heck, a lot of the season 3 episodes (Heart of the Truest Believer, Lost Girl, Going Home, New York City Serenade, etc). We’ve been clearly shown that Emma is not without emotions. Things get to her and while she may put on a brave face there are clear cracks in her armor. If anything the character is rather a study in contrasts - she’s strong but vulnerable, pragmatic but rash, she desperately seeks love and yet fear makes her aloof. So I don’t think the show has really fallen down on showing us that Emma has emotions. She’s got them, we’ve seen them.
 
Where the show has fallen down (piss drunk failed) is in fleshing out Emma’s "origin story" and giving her character's present day emotional story arc it's due (what we do get is in fits and starts. It is mainly dished out in the first episode of the season, remains practically untouched for the rest of the season, but then suddenly, out of the blue it's resolved in the season finale). Really, all we know three seasons into this show are very broad strokes. We know the Power Point bullet point version of "Who is Emma Swan and what makes her tick", but bullet points don't make for a story that everyone can connect with. Those stereotypical brooding male heroes you refer to all have had their origin stories told in detail. If you read comics (or watch the movies) you know and have seen what Batman’s "damage" is. Even comic book heroes have their origin stories told as part of their mythology. But on ONCE, where supposedly this show is (was) Emma’s fairytale, we, to this very date, still know very little about Emma herself. We know her parents stuck her in a magical wardrobe to escape a curse, we know that at 16 or 17 her ex set her up to take a fall for his crimes, abandoned her pregnant in prison and never looked back, we know she gave up her baby for adoption, we know she ended up in Storybrooke at the age of 28. Everything else that we may know about Emma is just speculation based on things that have been gleaned and inferred from dialogue. But even that amounts to only knowing that she was a painfully lonely foster kid and apparently ran away from the system at 15-16 years old. That tells us so very little and it's simply not enough.
 
What makes all this worse is when you consider that this show has been on for 3 seasons and the items noted above are all we know about Emma Swan. That’s pathetic. There are big, huge, ginormous swaths of missing information and this is what handicaps the character for many in the audience. Viewers need to see and know the details of a character's past (and their current emotional headspace) to help them connect. We can’t emotionally connect with what we don't know (and as a result many of us resort to filling it in with our own headcanons because it's just human tendency to want to  fill in the gaps when the information is missing -- we like complete stories). But sadly (and infuriatingly) the writers have willfully refused to fill in the gaps about what shaped Emma Swan and made her the woman that we see now, and furthermore (and for me, this is truly galling), they are failing in telling us a well crafted and organic story of Emma Swan in these, the present days of her becoming.

 

...Instead, the writers invest the precious screen time in dishing out ad nauseum stories showcasing every damn slight under the sun experienced by Villains Inc. FFS, that's soooo not what I signed up for.

Edited August 18, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Dani-Ellie]

...Instead, the writers invest the precious screen time in dishing out ad nauseum stories showcasing every damn slight under the sun experienced by Villains Inc. FFS, that's soooo not what I signed up for.

 

Word. I really don't give two shits anymore about anyone who's ever accidentally looked at Regina funny. Can we please have some details about the heroine of the story, for crying out loud? Like I said in the "Lost Girl" thread, Emma is an original character, here. We can't rely on previous versions of the character to give ourselves an idea of where she's coming from. That is up to the show, and the show is utterly failing at it.

 

The idea of a child growing up with no love whatsoever is so utterly tragic that this shit should really write itself. This is a real-world problem. This isn't "my dad was a knight and was killed trying to slay a dragon and my mom was a princess but her throne got usurped." This is a little girl who grew up here, who slipped through the cracks and flew under the radar, a little girl who was utterly failed by the system that was supposed to protect her. This is a little girl who, at three years old, was returned to the system by the only family she'd ever known. How come we haven't seen a flash of a confused little blonde three-year-old, wondering why "Mommy" and "Daddy" were giving her to strangers? Do they not comprehend how much more sympathy and understanding viewers would have if we could see that? Or do they just not care?

 

Emma's story is the kind of thing happens all the damn time. It's real-world, human drama, and it really shouldn't be hard to put the audience on Emma's wavelength. I mean, just look how many of us want to hug Emma just from little we do know. How many more people would understand why she is the way she is if the show actually showed us? But in order to do so, they need to put even the tiniest attention on her and her past, and they absolutely refuse to do it.

 

I don't get it.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Jean]

 

I don’t entirely agree with this. I agree that in so far as the general trope of the dark hero with the tragic background, Emma fills that stereotype. But she’s not emotionless. Watch season 1

 

Because that's her journey or character arc, to open up. The fact that we can count the number of times she has shown emotion or open up to someone speaks volume. It is a huge milestone everytime she does. I mean I don't think anyone is keeping count of the times Snow has shown emotion, or Woegina. It's not noteworthy to say Snow or Woegina feels something or make sad emo faces. It is for Emma. Anytime she opens up it's like winning a battle. In that she is like Mr. Gold. Remember how monumental Skin Deep was? Because that was the first time we saw a chink in his armor. It's just Gold had the benefit of having an alter ego in Rumple.

 

Emma is closed off. That's her character description to start the show and she still is. If you were to ask Jmo or any of the writers to describe Emma, the first words that would come out of their mouths is closed off. The only difference now is she has let in a very select few to her inner circle. But even now she can keep them at arms length very easily and shut them out.

 

I also think A&E clearly don't see her as the main character no matter how the show was sold or presented in S1. It is very clearly a different show now and has been for the last 2 seasons.  I said this somewhere, that Emma comes off like a network mandated character. She fulfills a checklist somewhere on a network executive's list. This show is barely an ensemble show anymore when in S1 you can call it an ensemble. S2 onwards it is the Woegina show with guest stars so and so.

[RadioGirl27]

Word. I really don't give two shits anymore about anyone who's ever accidentally looked at Regina funny. Can we please have some details about the heroine of the story, for crying out loud?

The problem is that, for us, Emma is the heroine of the story, but not for the writers, at least not anymore. They don't care enough about her and that has been pretty obvious since season 2, but especially in season 3.

[Dani-Ellie]

Then it's a definite bait and switch because she certainly was in season one. I didn't sign up for The Regina Show. I signed up for Emma Swan, Heir to the Fairy Tale Throne. And now I'm invested and I want to see where Emma's story goes, but it's maddening when her story is given token attention and that's it, especially when once considers how they writers are choosing to use the time they have. They need a better balance, not just with Emma but with all of the characters. I think there'd be a lot less frustration if everyone felt their favorite characters were getting their due.

 

Whether or not Emma is the heroine of the story is kind of beside the point, though. Like @regularlyleaded said, it's criminal that we are now heading into season four of this show and know so little about one of its main characters. 

Edited August 18, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[regularlyleaded]

Because that's her journey or character arc, to open up. [...]

I don't disagree that part of Emma's journey in this series is learning to allow herself to emotionally connect with people. But my understanding of your original post (and I perhaps misunderstood) was that because Emma doesn't show emotions and because we don't get any background story for her character, no one in the audience can connect with her. I partially disagree with that. I disagree that Emma is emotionless. IMO that is not the crux of the character's problem. She shows emotions it's just that Emma's issue is allowing herself to be emotionally vulnerable with others and allowing herself to connect with them. I don't think that's the same thing as not showing emotions -- I just don't think she comes off as stone cold, at least that's never been a perception I've held. Instead, my point is that I think the problem with the show, as far as Emma's story is concerned, is that we've been given no detailed context to understand where her emotions are coming from. @Dani-Ellie stated this far more eloquently a few posts above, but essentially, without any context to Emma's emotional headspace and without more information about the origins of her reticence to open up to others (why is she this way), many in the audience can't relate to her and so the story feels half-assed. That's what I was trying to get at.

Edited August 18, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[KingOfHearts]

I don't have a problem with Emma having fewer emotions. In fact, that's one of her best qualities at times. While Regina is balling, Snow is overly optimistic, Charming is in protector mode and Hook is flirting, Emma is usually the most level-headed and logical one there. She doesn't get dramatic about stuff and that's why she's the perfect candidate to be the mediator and crime solver in Storybrooke. This system worked well in Neverland as well when she was leading the Nevengers on even when they bickered.

 

ITA that Emma's lack of backstory is a major part of the problem, but I also think part of it is that she's not as "useful" or relevant any more. They didn't need her in 3B at all because it was all taken care of by Regina. Regina, Hook and Rumple probably could have done Neverland by themselves if they cooperated with each other. Emma hasn't really "saved the day" since S2. This makes her unappealing to casual viewers, as they'd rather root for whatever character is being focused on at the point in time.

Edited August 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Jean]

It's not very entertaining to watch though KingofHearts. Especially on a show where everyone is over the top emoting 99% of the time, you're working at a distinct advantage. Stoic Gold works because Rumple is there as a contrast. And if we only got Rumple he'd be exhausting too but it's the dichotomy that works. Now I'm not saying Emma should get to that point as the rest. Obviously I find Woegina's perpetual sad victimy faces and Snow's imitation of a cheerlearder on crack annoying as hell but something like 3x21-3x22. You know where she gets to show some personality. And her more realistic subdued reactions keeps the show grounded. I think that's why people want to connect to her. She's the most relatable but her "blank slate" self is really working against that.

 

This is going back to what I was saying earlier. The sexy brooding hero sells, brooding heroines don't. You can write off the guy as sexy and mysterious. I don't think females get that benefit of the doubt. It comes off as boring and no personality. I'm trying to think of a female character, in books, tv, films anything, that is similar to Emma, an aloof damaged brooder, and I honestly can't think of one. Maybe Elsa but she has "Let It Go" to sell her story. I'm starting to think "Emma" started out as "Evan." Hell they even gave her the requisite trope of  "only do one night stands" line.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Jean

[Rumsy4]

I'm trying to think of a female character, in books, tv, films anything, that is similar to Emma, an aloof damaged brooder, and I honestly can't think of one. Maybe Elsa but she has "Let It Go" to sell her story. I'm starting to think "Emma" started out as "Evan." Hell they even gave her the requisite trope of  "only do one night stands" line.

 

I'm sure there are a few at least. For example, Olivia Dunham from Fringe was an aloof and "damaged" person. She was way better written than Emma, and is one of my favorite TV characters. Nevertheless, several viewers found her Alternate Universe version (Altivia, don't ask) more likeable, as she was more open and "fun". In fact, one of her fan nicknames was Funlivia. So, you may have a point about aloof brooding men being more appealing on TV, than aloof brooding women. 

[KingOfHearts]

Emma's "home" arc in 3B was a retread of what we've already seen before - Emma accepting her role as the daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming and her place in Storybrooke/EF. That has been a quest that's been going on since the flipping pilot. Her reasons for wanting to leave may have changed, but the overall question was the same. In 2B and 3A, I had thought she had already reached the point of accepting Storybrooke as home. She wanted to stay with her parents, she was adamant about staying when Pan's Curse was coming, and she accepted her role as a leader. At that point she had no resistance to Storybrooke that anyone could see. Heck, after Team Princess she called Storybrooke "home".

 

3B concluded nearly all of Emma's arcs, pushing her over her peak. She really has little else to go to now.

 

* Emma's parents got a replacement baby and have shown apathy for her. That relationship arc is going nowhere.
* Emma is no longer the Savior, but Regina is.
* Emma now has the motherly relationship she always wanted with Henry thanks to NY memories.
* Emma has accepted Storybrooke as her home.

 

The only thing she has to do now is marry Hook, unless they plan on knocking down all her walls one at a time.

Edited August 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

Regina, Hook and Rumple probably could have done Neverland by themselves if they cooperated with each other.

Those three cooperate with each other all by themselves? Really!? Given that this is completely unrealistic a scenario, it doesn't count. No Emma = no success in Neverland.

I would argue Emma was still presented as the main character in 2A and 3A, even if her development arc in both wasn't as consistently highlighted as in S1. It's only 2B and 3B where it became a full-on Regina Show.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Mathius

[FabulousTater]

From the "Lost Girl" episode thread

That adult Emma feels like an orphan is not a new revelation. We knew that before the first commercial break in the pilot. It was a point repeated periodically throughout S1 and S2. And I'm not saying it's not an important point. But the show itself is treating it as if it were a new revelation. [...]

Well, I think the "revelation" that Emma is a "Lost Girl" was intended to be something that Emma was supposed to finally admit to herself. Not that it was necessarily a revelation to any of us in the audience or any other character (other than Snow but it didn't matter to her anymore 5 minutes later, so...). It was about Emma coming to terms with her own emotions and how she truly sees herself as opposed to what everyone else tells her she is (Savior, mother, daughter, bail bonds person, thief, etc.). I think she spent most of her life fighting for her place in the world and fighting people's assumptions about her because of her past, to the point that she stopped being honest with herself and that when she finally found her "family", she couldn't admit that she still felt lost. For Emma, finding her family didn't just make everything okay. It didn't erase 28 years of loneliness and being unloved -- she's still an orphan.

 

 It's just, as usual with this show, the writers never delved any further into any of this outside of this episode. They basically had Emma say, "Yup, I still feel like a lonely, lost little girl" in 3x02 then never dealt with it again until the season finale when she's all "Yay! Home!" Not exactly in-depth storytelling, Show.

Edited August 25, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Shanna Marie]

I didn't think the Lost Girl identity was such a revelation to Emma, more that she didn't want to admit it to others, especially her mother. She's put on a pretty brave face to the world but hasn't said it out loud or said anything about it to her parents. That's what's so wonky about the way it was handled in "Lost Girl." Snow seemed to be in denial both before and after this revelation, so it made little sense for her to be the one spurring Emma to admit it. It should have been a big surprise to Snow that Emma feels that way (given the way Snow has handled Emma from the start -- it really shouldn't have been a surprise that a kid sent to another world as a newborn in a tree would feel a bit lost). That's the part that didn't work, that Snow was the one going "I saw you see the Lost Boy's eyes, you identified with him, you're like him!" when through the rest of the series she's been the one just assuming Emma knows how much her parents love her. If they were going to make that revelation a real "revelation," then Snow should have overheard Emma admitting it out loud, been shocked by it, and then been even more shocked when that unlocked the map. Snow's the only one who would have been really surprised.

 

Or Emma should have had the moment of truth on her own after seeing something of herself in the Lost Boy, grabbed the map and said it, shocking her parents (while Hook rolled his eyes and said, "What took you so long, love? I knew it the moment I met you.").

 

Emma may not have used the word "lost" to describe herself, though. She's more likely to think in terms of words like "independent" or "self-sufficient." So this wouldn't necessarily be a "gasp!" moment for the audience or for Emma, but it would be a shift in the way she thinks about it for Emma.

[FabulousTater]

It should have been a big surprise to Snow that Emma feels that way (given the way Snow has handled Emma from the start -- it really shouldn't have been a surprise that a kid sent to another world as a newborn in a tree would feel a bit lost).

TBH, the way the show has played it out, I still don't think Snow gets it. Like, I don't think Snow really understands how bad it was for Emma. Not really (but that's a discussion for a different thread).

 

Emma may not have used the word "lost" to describe herself, though. She's more likely to think in terms of words like "independent" or "self-sufficient." So this wouldn't necessarily be a "gasp!" moment for the audience or for Emma, but it would be a shift in the way she thinks about it for Emma.

Yes, IA. It's not like Emma has been lying to herself about being an orphan or calls herself "lost", but she's worked so hard to not be that orphan and instead have people see her as "independent" and self-reliant (because, lbr, she's had to be as a matter of survival), that she, in a sense, has been ignoring her own truth -- that feeling like the unwanted orphan she was hasn't gone away.

 

The way the scenes in "Lost Girl" as played by Morrison came across to me were as if Emma was coming face to face with how she really felt. It wasn't a shocking revelation, but it was a bit of an eye-opening moment of self-examination for Emma ( or as you said, a shift in how she sees herself). Those feelings that Emma admitted to in "Lost Girl" were always there, she'd just been really good at ignoring them, especially while she was being spun like a top trying to be so many things for different people.

Edited August 25, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Jean]

Emma puts on a false bravado. Neverland supposedly stripped that all away. The point of the scene wasn't to reveal Emma's feelings, it was to reveal Neverland/Pan's power.

People focus on Emma in that episode but Rumple had the exact same scene as Emma, where he was forced by Pan in the form of fake Belle, to admit that he was a coward and like his dad. He too also puts on a false bravado. It was to emphasize the effect Neverland had on Rumple and Emma. Which is why it's such a shame that they separated the 2 when they were essentially going on the same journey. It would've been way more interesting to force them together and have them either go crazy over it together and/or come out of it stronger.

[unbrokensavior]

I got my S3 DVD's for my birthday, and I was rewatching, and Zelena says to Emma, "It appears someone's got an inflated sense of self-worth." after Emma tells her she's the Savior, not an amateur.  She's finally accepting her role and starting to believe in herself just a tiny bit, and then Zelena says that.  It was something that slipped by me the first time, but just... wow.  Between that and Neal saying he never believed in Emma's internal lie detector -the one thing she's ever been proud of herself for- it's a wonder she doesn't have more problems.  I wish the show would explore all of this.

[Dani-Ellie]

That kind of thing is what happens when the writers don't take the consequences of their own story seriously enough. Zelena's crack I'm sure was written as a standard Snarky Villain line. Neal's "You said you have a thing with lies, but I never believed it" I'm sure was written as a standard "oh, come on now" line between old friends. The only problem is, here you have this character who has nothing. It's taken her three years to accept the savior position, and she and Neal were not old friends. Prior to Neal coming back into Emma's life, the last time she'd seen him was just before he sent her to jail. So both of those lines can be taken as a gut-punch to poor Emma when I highly doubt they were intended to come across that way.

[Camera One]

"It appears someone's got an inflated sense of self-worth." after Emma tells her she's the Savior, not an amateur.  She's finally accepting her role and starting to believe in herself just a tiny bit, and then Zelena says that.

 

I wish they could show Emma go full out to learn concrete skills so she can actually be a Savior though.  Half the time, those "Savior" powers just come out at random.  I really hated how the writers had Emma dismiss learning the runes from the spell book.  I personally think Emma would *want* to be as prepared as possible, and she would have no problems learning something intellectual.  Yes, learning runes is so boring they don't want to write it, but at the very least have Emma learn it offscreen.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Emma didn't want to learn the runes because they needed her to be up to speed right now. Learning an entirely new written language isn't going to work when your deadline is the birth of a baby due any day. She wasn't dismissive of the idea so much as aware that trying to learn that wasn't what they needed to do, which is exactly why she asked if Rumpel used other tactics during the training. And lo and behold, there was a more immediate way to learn to unlock her magic.

 

I'd also say that Emma's plan was to quickly learn magic, defeat Zelena and get the hell out of Dodge, so long term education in the ways of magic was not of interest to her. Maybe it could be now, but I've a feeling that we're done with the runes. Both because book learning is boring (and also Belle's only role on this show) and because the writers have not clarified at all how exactly magic works. What is the point of the runes if Emma can rebuild a bridge, view memories, create protective barriers, burn Zelena's hands, use mirror Skype and create a blast of magic to protect herself and her mother without using them? Should she even care about rune magic?

[Camera One]

I just don't think it's rewarding when a character suddenly masters anything, much less Savior-level magic, in an afternoon with no conscious effort.  It's way too easy.  

 

You raise a good point that Emma wanted to leave and go back to NYC and she wasn't learning for interest, but wouldn't she want to do everything in her power to make sure she defeats Zelena?  One wrong move and she and Henry and her family are dead, much less out of Dodge.  

 

I agree the underlying problem is that the writers have not defined exactly how magic works, but I think the logical, bailbondswoman, strong Emma would have taken a different attitude and a different approach to this, even if she happened to build a bridge in a single lesson.  She would want to be sure, and random ooh, I did so much when I thought I was going to die, isn't very concrete going into battle.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Camera One

[myril]

Emma is more of a practical person.  Think she would learn what she needs to to get a job done, so it made sense that she wasn't that much interested in the runes at that point, but  that doesn't mean she might not at all be interested to take a closer look at it again later, to be better prepared next time.

 

The bridge scene was fun, and another moment to tell the audience, look, Emma has talent, her magic is perhaps special. But it came across to me more as showing, see, Emma got all the talent but doesn't know what to make of it, while Regina has maybe not much talent, but she works so hard for whatever, she had to work hard to be the Evil Queen, and now she has to work so hard to be accepted as reformed person. Already had that impression while it aired, but think so even more now in hindsight. It's always Regina's point of view the writers tell things from.

 

But still would like to see Emma  learn what it takes and then get it done. 

[Camera One]

Think she would learn what she needs to to get a job done,

 

The problem for me, is I don't see how she "learned" anything.  

 

Good point about the Regina comparison.  It's all about The Regina.

[Curio]

I just don't think it's rewarding when a character suddenly masters anything, much less Savior-level magic, in an afternoon with no conscious effort. It's way too easy.

The problem for me, is I don't see how she "learned" anything.

 

I'm normally not a fan of characters becoming unusually good at something just because the plot calls for them to step up, but in Emma's case, I think it actually works. The writers have already established that Emma's powers are unique and naturally a part of her, much like how some people are naturally more gifted in some areas than others without even really trying. It's like someone who is naturally gifted in music or sports -- there are the kids who took private lessons and worked really hard to master the skills, and then there are the few who don't ever practice, but are still the best in the group somehow. (And it drives the hard workers/Regina crazy.) Emma could be scary talented if she just freaking practiced, much like the kid who could probably play that Tchaikovsky concerto if they just practiced their damn scales more often.

 

Emma still has a long way to go before she actually becomes good at magic. Sure, she can salvage a bridge or shoot Cora away without even trying, but she hasn't done anything super impressive on the spot when she has to think about it.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Curio

[ShadowFacts]

It would be interesting, too, if Emma actually had a process of not only learning and using and coming to terms with her abilities, but also thinking about if she wants to use them at all. 

[Curio]

I'm curious to see if she has the ability to use darker magic. For example, if the only way to save Henry was to cast a stronger and darker spell, would she have the power to do it? Or can she only conjure white magic? I could unfortunately see her taking a huge break from ever using magic again if she was forced into that kind of ultimatum, though.

[Dani-Ellie]

Emma still has a long way to go before she actually becomes good at magic. Sure, she can salvage a bridge or shoot Cora away without even trying, but she hasn't done anything super impressive on the spot when she has to think about it.

 

This. The way I see Emma vis a vis magic is that Emma is raw, untapped potential. She's the kid that throws the hundred-mile-an-hour fastball the first time she picks up a baseball. And just like the kid with the baseball, she has no idea how to harness that ability and really make it work for her. That's where the training becomes necessary, because raw potential is great but it's also unwieldy.

 

We don't know how she would have fared against Zelena because the show never saw fit to show us. Emma thought she was ready but who knows if she really was or not? Poofing a mug of cocoa across a diner is of course amazing but it's a far cry from being able to hold one's own in a magical fight.

[YaddaYadda]

I think she was ready enough against Zelena, she did manage to burn her or whatever she did to her when Henry was taken hostage.  One of the things with Emma is that she seems to always need to concentrate to do her magic, she has to think about it even though it's part of her.  I always thought they could have drawn a nice parallel between Emma and Zelena actually.  Both born with their gifts, they're innate to them.  I wonder if that's what made Zelena so much more powerful than Regina was (until she white lighted her way into whatever).

 

 Emma always needs to concentrate when she's doing magic, she has it, but it doesn't come easy for her and I wonder if it's not because she hasn't really accepted what she is and what she has.  In the time she took to do magic, Zelena could have poofed out of there with Henry or turned him into a flying monstrosity.

[Dani-Ellie]

I think she would have been ready enough, too, but I wouldn't exactly call that mastery of her skills, either. Maybe she would have defeated her with one magical swipe, or maybe it would have been a long and drawn-out battle in which Emma just barely emerged victorious. 

 

Emma always needs to concentrate when she's doing magic, she has it, but it doesn't come easy for her and I wonder if it's not because she hasn't really accepted what she is and what she has.  In the time she took to do magic, Zelena could have poofed out of there with Henry or turned him into a flying monstrosity.

 

And that's exactly why I don't consider her a magic master yet. She can do some absolutely incredible things but she has no idea how to do them on command. Regina just opens her hand and a fireball appears. I'm assuming Emma could do the same or at least similar ... if she knew how. In a way, she kind of approached this the way she approached rescuing Henry: she didn't need to be able to do it the right way, she just needed to be able to succeed.

[kili]

Emma could be scary talented if she just freaking practiced, much like the kid who could probably play that Tchaikovsky concerto if they just practiced their damn scales more often.

 

Emma is like the kid with the raw talent who could play a Tchaikovsky concert if only she hadn't seen her first piano when she was 28 and since the day she's seen her first piano, she's been chased around the neighborhood by a variety of murderers, thieves and natural disasters barely having time to grab a cup of hot chocolate let alone sleep. ;-)

[YaddaYadda]

And that's exactly why I don't consider her a magic master yet. She can do some absolutely incredible things but she has no idea how to do them on command. Regina just opens her hand and a fireball appears. I'm assuming Emma could do the same or at least similar ... if she knew how.

 

I guess Regina is sort of a point of reference when it comes to learning magic.  They've shown her having a difficult time doing what Rumple was asking her, I want to say during It's Not Easy Being Green, but I'm not sure. 

 

Emma is untrained and managed to open a time portal.  I think for her it really comes down to believing she can do it.

[Rumsy4]

I get the impression that Emma is not used to the discipline of reading or book learning. Her bringing up allowed for no fixed home, and she was living in the streets by the time she was 16. She probably got her high school diploma after she got out of jail. We don't know if she went to college. Being a Bounty Hunter requires skill and she would likely have to do some research on her target, but that would not require memorization and learning of concepts.

Have we seen anyone in the Show crack open a book for pleasure, other than Belle? LOST writers were always dropping clues via the books Sawyer or Ben were reading. But nada here. They could have shown Emma reading a bestseller in New York--it certainly would have added a layer to the life she was leaving behind. They only showed her playing video games with Henry.

I think Emma needs to make a determined effort to study the concepts of magic if she is to improve. It would be bad writing if Emma is always pressured into doing something out of necessity. I really wish Rumple would teach her--he always tailored his lessons to fit the learner, and is clearly the most skilled practitioner of magic.

[Curio]

Have we seen anyone in the Show crack open a book for pleasure, other than Belle?

Hook possibly?

 

But I think you make a good point - Emma is probably not much of a book learner. I see her as more of a physical hands-on learner, so if she found someone she's comfortable practicing magic around without feeling pressure if she succeeds or fails coughHookcough, she could really make strides in her practices. Just more daily things like moving the hot cocoa cup further and further, or slowly levitating heavier items, and eventually graduating into cooler stuff as the season progresses. I really hope this is the direction they take Emma in Season 4...

[kili]

H

Have we seen anyone in the Show crack open a book for pleasure, other than Belle?

 

Hook possibly?

 

Yes. Hook was reading a book when Emma magicked over the Hot Chocolate. He was also shown reading a couple of times in the library while waiting for somebody to come in.

 

Henry has spent a lot of time reading his book and was willing to put down his video game to go to the library. Snow was shown reading a book while pregnant (and talking about cradle cap). Regina read her spell book.

 

Emma seems more like a person who would learn by doing rather than reading. If she needed to change the oil on her car, I suspect she'd either get somebody to show her how to do it or look it up on youtube.

 

I guess Regina is sort of a point of reference when it comes to learning magic.  They've shown her having a difficult time doing what Rumple was asking her, I want to say during It's Not Easy Being Green, but I'm not sure.

 

At the same time, the show has demonstrated that Emma has magic within her (and that is my guess with Elsa as well). Rumple and Regina need to get magic from the world around them (hence, they couldn't do magic before Rumple restored magic). Regina had to learn how to extract magic from the world, while Emma needs to learn how to control her own magic (and to believe in herself).

 

Rumple also had a very specific goal of getting Regina to harness dark magic. I'm not sure Regina is the best teacher for Emma  or if she necessarily needs to learn runes.  Rumple taught Regina using fear and telling her to harness her hatred.  He told Zelena and Cora to use their hatred and to control with happy thoughts. With Emma, he told her to think about who she wanted to protect. Regina may not be able to train another person how to use light magic since her training did not include that - although, she did use white magic in a protective manner in much the same way as Emma does. Perhaps Rumple will need to train both Regina and Emma how to harness white magic.

[Dani-Ellie]

At the same time, the show has demonstrated that Emma has magic within her (and that is my guess with Elsa as well). Rumple and Regina need to get magic from the world around them (hence, they couldn't do magic before Rumple restored magic). Regina had to learn how to extract magic from the world, while Emma needs to learn how to control her own magic (and to believe in herself).

 

I didn't mean to suggest that I think Emma and Regina are equivalent in the magical talent aspect, because I do think Emma's innate magic is inherently stronger than Regina's accessed magic when taken down to brass tacks. My point was there's an immediacy to Regina's use of magic that Emma hasn't quite worked her way up to yet. When not working on base instinct, Emma seems to need at least a little bit of time to make her magic do what she wants it to do, which, in a battle situation where every second counts, could be very detrimental. I think that's why she pooh-poohed the book learning, not because it wasn't important but because they didn't have the time for something that wasn't really going to help her anyway. She didn't need the rote methods, she needed the practical application.

 

I agree that Rumple would be a better teacher for her, if only because he seems to be able to tailor his instruction to the student. In Neverland, Regina was trying to teach Regina to tap into anger, which Emma very clearly didn't want to do. And I'm not saying this as a mark against Regina; she was just teaching Emma how she was taught herself, but Rumple's instruction to tap into protection seems to be a better fit for Emma.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Dani-Ellie