S01.E20: The Necessary Art

[thewhiteowl]

 

While Henry is in Russia giving a lecture on fundamentalism, Elizabeth must navigate tricky political waters when a Russian nuclear submarine vanishes in American waters. Also, Stevie breaks up with her older boyfriend.

 

[secnarf]

For anyone recording, it started 16 minutes late on the East coast.

[shapeshifter]

I loved this episode for

• The characterization and use of and elderly actor (83-year-old Philip Baker Hall as retiring govt. official Ezra Helsinger)
• Daisy finally becomes the character she should have been written as from the beginning (extinguisher of SoS kids' social media fires)
• Dr. Arm Candy's heroics almost making sense
• The translator tearing up that the young men had just 2 hours to live
• The asshat military hawk guy realizing not too late that he was wrong

A little more Russell would be nice, but he and Bess did have one little cute snarky exchange.

I was tempted to continue with The Good Wife when this was over, but turned it off, and realized I'd much rather have the SoS kids used for the soap opera stuff than the main characters.

I'm sure others here will find worthy stuff to critique, but right now I'm off to the quote thread.

[sinkwriter]

I kind of wanted to smack the younger sister upside the head. Does she seriously not know by now that she needs to not fuel rumors about her own sister and the President's son?? 

 

Nevertheless, it was great that Daisy handled it AND figured out that the older daughter was dating her boss and handled that too. I was really afraid that those photographers were going to catch Stevie kissing her boss or something. Somehow I can't imagine that that's completely over.

I am so glad they rescued those remaining Russian officers. I figured they had handled it in a hush-hush way, but when the news report said there were no survivors I got concerned. If that had really been the case, I would have been ticked at everyone for taking too long to negotiate. 

 

I agree with shapeshifter -- the way the translator got choked up while translating that they were begging for help definitely got to me. It was a really nice touch.

[KLovestoShop]

A really good episode. The show of human decency by the Russian President was a very nice, and unexpected touch. Hated the military "asshat" and his smug attitude. Absolutely loved the retiring gentleman. Too bad he retired because he'd make an excellent addition to the cast.

Did anyone notice the Secretary's pants? Bugged me for most of the episode. Why didn't they fit her better? They needed to be pulled up as the crotch area was about 6 inches below her crotch. I almost thought they were a homage to way below crotch of certain rap artists.

[shapeshifter]

...Absolutely loved the retiring gentleman. Too bad he retired because he'd make an excellent addition to the cast...

Didn't she something at the end about how they would talk again in the future? I hope so.

...Did anyone notice the Secretary's pants?...

I tried not to. But when I did, I tried to fanwank that in the chaos of the brink of a nuclear world war that she accidentally put on one of her daughters' pairs of pants.

Did I hear some young intern say the Bushism "nucular" instead of "nuclear"?

[Dowel Jones]

With respect to the military officer in the Situation Room, keep in mind that the sub was within the 12 mile territorial limit, if I recall correctly.  That would most certainly merit a forceful response, as was done recently in Sweden for the same reason (depth charges at an unknown submarine).  Beyond that, it was a rather incomprehensible set of solutions by the end.  What's to keep the Russian crewmembers from contacting their families on their own?  And, eventually (think USS Liberty 1967), some stories will leak out about how the destroyer was attacked, rather than being in a collision.  Well, anyway, the world was once again saved by Lt. Col. Dr. Arm Candy, Minister at Large and Without Portfolio, scourge of innocent snow grouse worldwide.

 

Looks like a lot of countries aren't going to get their microloans now.

 

..but right now I'm off to the quote thread.

 

"We don't go to war on a mistake!"  Ummmm......

[Kromm]

{Rolling my eyes at this show somehow having a Cold War storyline}

 

Also, once more Dr. Arm Candy is involved in the story in the most ludicrous over the top way.

As silly as the whole "lesson from the old pro" thing was, he was a fun character and it's a shame it would probably go even MORE over the top to find some way to keep him.

 

Also, in the almost unending series of things about the character of Russell Jackson that annoys me (although please note Željko Ivanek doesn't--it's just the way the character is often written), like for example how he frequently gives the Secretary of State orders, this episode we had the other big thing the writers mis-use him for--being King Exposition who knows all kinds of stuff, so he's the one who can explain it to Elizabeth (in this case, that it's standard Naval protocol to drop depth charges in such and such a situation--even worse him being the one saying that when a perfectly good Admiral is sitting a few chairs down from Russell).

Edited April 13, 2015 by Kromm

[33kaitykaity]

I think I might have to stop watching this show pretty soon.  I knew that this sub was in distress rather than a genuine threat really early on.  Too bad, too.  

 

I liked the SoS's pants, just the way they fit.  They made her ass look really good, yet she seemed super comfortable.  To each their own I guess.  

[Calamity Jane]

Ripped from The Hunt for Red October, sort of.   But what story did they give the Russians to account for 20 of the crew's bodies having vanished?  Where were they supposed to have gone?  It seemed clear that the Russians did not know 20 survived, since their families would be in danger if they tried to contact them. 

Edited April 13, 2015 by Calamity Jane

[movado23]

Does anyone else think the boss/boyfriend is going to turn out to be using the daughter to get at the Sec. ? 

[Guest]

Is it me or has Stevie become..... almost likable?  

 

I loved the retiring guy.  I wish he would replace one of her more annoying staff members.  

[tom87]

Remind me never to travel with the SOS family.

 

What next ISIS negotiations at the kid's sleep over camp?

 

Is it me or has Stevie become..... almost likable?  

A little bit I didn't want to punch her at least.

 

And really 6-8 months into the SOS appointment and the kids have not had some guidelines in place for posting on the internet and Daisey  doesn't have them on her google alert?

[Xantar]

Is it me or has Stevie become..... almost likable?  

 

I loved the retiring guy.  I wish he would replace one of her more annoying staff members.  

 

I never hated Stevie as a character because there wasn't really a disconnect between the way the writers see her and the way the audience sees her. It's become pretty clear that when she's being annoying, we're supposed to think she's annoying (but also kind of true to type). And then when we're supposed to think she's doing a wise, adult thing, she's actually doing a wise, adult thing. As long as she isn't monopolizing screen time, she's ok.

 

It appears that it's Allison's turn to get on our nerves now, though. After her brother's inability to shut up about anarchism he doesn't really understand and her sister's self-aggrandizement, it appears Allison's trait is going to be social cluelessness.

[Leigh3]

UGH I missed the last 15 minutes due to 60 Minutes running over. Would someone tell me how it ended. I thought it was a pretty good episode...of what I saw lol  Last scene was the crew being asked why they fired the torpedo.

Thoughts on the episode:

Won't be surprised if Stevie's boss doesn't come back in a negative way.

Can't stand speechwriter Matt.

[secnarf]

UGH I missed the last 15 minutes due to 60 Minutes running over. Would someone tell me how it ended. I thought it was a pretty good episode...of what I saw lol  Last scene was the crew being asked why they fired the torpedo.

Thoughts on the episode:

Won't be surprised if Stevie's boss doesn't come back in a negative way.

Can't stand speechwriter Matt.

It was actually because of the Masters tournament running over :( Pushed everything back.

Basically Dr Arm Candy presented a deal to the Russian president and convinced him to accept - we weren't told the specifics, but it involved pretending the remaining crew of the sub all died after an accidental crash, and instead those 20 crewmembers will be given new identities to live in the US, and the Americans got a look at the new fancy Russian technology.

The SoS staff still don't realize what happened and just watch the fake story on the news, and Ezra tells them it's a story. There's a nice scene with Bess giving him his present (a photograph) and some reminiscing and she mentions that they should stay in touch or something like that. Kind of left the door open for him to return from time to time, although he did mention he's planning on going to Europe.

Elizabeth and Henry are thrilled that Stevie broke up with her bf, but rather transparently pretend not to be.

[Leigh3]

Thank you secnarf. Maybe I'll catch it on the rerun.

[Kromm]

Ripped from The Hunt for Red October, sort of.   But what story did they give the Russians to account for 20 of the crew's bodies having vanished?  Where were they supposed to have gone?  It seemed clear that the Russians did not know 20 survived, since their families would be in danger if they tried to contact them. 

They didn't have to give a story to the Russians.  The Russians knew--or rather their leader did.  Only the families and public were lied to.

Is it me or has Stevie become..... almost likable?  

 

I loved the retiring guy.  I wish he would replace one of her more annoying staff members.  

I'm convinced now he'll be back.  If you play back the last scene with Elizabeth and him she says something like "we should talk again".

 

I think the way they're going to play it is that he will be an informal advisor--after he gets back from his European vacation.  Unpaid, but heck, he spent decades as a public servant being paid civil servant wages anyway.

As for Stevie?  The actress actually has a slight bit of charisma, it's just been horrible writing.

Does anyone else think the boss/boyfriend is going to turn out to be using the daughter to get at the Sec. ? 

To what end?  There's really no motive.  All he did as boyfriend was piss her off (even if she was better at hiding it than Dr. Arm Candy), so it's not a matter of access.  And if this was all to get leverage on her?  That won't work either.  He hasn't been fired for his job or anything else usable as leverage.  At this point if the relationship got out the only sliver of damage to the Secretary would be if it came out that she "approved of the relationship" (which she didn't really).. and the damage to HIS career would still be far worse.

 

So he's probably the exact same tiresome annoying character he seems to be.  And we're well rid of him.

[sinkwriter]

I thought they had to give a story to the Russians as well, so that the surviving crew members wouldn't be forced to return to Russia and be tried for treason because they'd created mutiny against their Captain whom they thought was wrong.

[Kromm]

I thought they had to give a story to the Russians as well, so that the surviving crew members wouldn't be forced to return to Russia and be tried for treason because they'd created mutiny against their Captain whom they thought was wrong.

Yes, but only to the Russian public--and they had the cooperation of the leader and his help in the coverup.  There is zero doubt the leader knew they were still alive--we knew that not only because of common sense but also the line in the episode about how they had to bribe the Russians to rescue their own people (that's not the exact line, but it was in that neighborhood).

[Sandiscot]

At the end, when the nice old guy told Bess where he was going, I thought he might be a mole. Maybe I read too many spy books.

[Calamity Jane]

I thought they had to give a story to the Russians as well, so that the surviving crew members wouldn't be forced to return to Russia and be tried for treason because they'd created mutiny against their Captain whom they thought was wrong.

Perhaps the plot from Red October was running interference in my head, because this was my reasoning, too.  I guess it makes sense that only the leader (and his close advisors perhaps) knew, but my brain discounted that because of the mutiny.  

[Kromm]

At the end, when the nice old guy told Bess where he was going, I thought he might be a mole. Maybe I read too many spy books.

A mole for what?  The conspiracy plot is gone and done and I don't see any signs they've extended or replaced it with another.  

 

I think he's exactly what he seems.  The decision to probably visit with him when he comes back seemed to come totally from Elizabeth's side, so unless he's a total mastermind at manipulation, he's just a medium level drone who lucked into getting along with her and gained her ear (if he even cares at this point in his life when it doesn't do his career any good).  

 

As a mid-level state department guy, of course he could have long been accepting money under the table for stuff, but for me at least it's hard to see what happened in this last episode as part of any grand plan on his part.  So if he's going to be used to compromise her at some later date, the writers are slow playing this, since we don't even have a clue when he'll be back--and since it will by necessity probably be her visiting him to ask advice rather than the other way around, I don't think we'll see him that regularly.

[sinkwriter]

I used to watch The West Wing -- that guy who was retiring reminded me of "back channels" sort of characters Aaron Sorkin liked to use for helping the President and his staff when they got stuck and couldn't see a way out or if they needed perspective from someone who'd already dealt with a similar issue. The staff would invite the character in for "catching up with the President" or something seemingly innocuous when in actuality he or she was advising the President on a serious matter. For example, Hal Holbrook played a character that visited with the President or with someone on staff in a couple of episodes; he was kind of an "elder statesman" sort of character.

 

I liked the throwback to that, via this retiring character. I could see him being invited back on occasion to talk through possibilities when things get tough and they need to see things from another angle.

[myril]

Perhaps the plot from Red October was running interference in my head, because this was my reasoning, too.  I guess it makes sense that only the leader (and his close advisors perhaps) knew, but my brain discounted that because of the mutiny.  

 

It was about Ostrov saving face. He played power games, sent the sub in to poke U.S. defense, then tech failed. The crew of the sub was ordered to destroy the sub if they were not able to restore power and leave, to make sure the US would get no hand or look at their technology. But aside the captain maybe the few crew men left had no interest in dying. Ostrov's official mentality was made quite clear with what he said to Henry while on the hunt, telling a story about the gun Ostrov's grandfather had kept close and loaded during the Siege of Leningrad to kill any attacker, and if there would have been no way out, to kill his family himself. Patriotic pride. What they managed was to give Ostrov a way out, saving his face, while rescuing the few men left alive in the sub plus avoiding possible nuclear contamination. And as welcomed extra they got a look at the tech on board, albeit a short one, something Ostrov obviously decided he can live with, the tech failed anyway, better than going into war.

 

Some sabre-rattling going on on both sides. Classical Cold War situation. Still going on, or happening again. Just these days U.S. filed complains about one of their reconnaissance planes having been intercepted in "unsafe and unprofessional way" over the Baltic Sea by a Russian fighter jet past week. Remember in the pilot, there was that student telling Bess, that he finds writing about the Cold War boring and he would like to write about his idea, that there is a new Cold War.

 

But, yup, the good old Russian submarine lost plot. But they let Helsinger (the retiree) say it even, that he has "seen this movie before". LOL

 

I liked how they tied in the story of the retiree, of Ezra Lyle Helsinger, his experience of decades with Cold War and sabre-rattling, and based on that asking some important right questions.

 

Adding a few nudges and observations from Super-Henry, being not so accidentally in the right place at the right time, and it's an episode again about not falling for first impressions and conclusion but the need to look behind the curtain, see beyond the public political show.

 

Of course fitting to cite Dulles in this episode "The ability to get to the verge without getting into the war is the necessary art." Refering to policy of Brinkmanship, MAD (mutually assured destruction), balance of terror, war games - marker of the Cold War. We somewhat forgot about that after the fall of the wall, and more so with new threats which became obvious with 9/11. But it's not like that potential is all gone, is it.

 

What did Bess say in the end to Ezra when he talked about all the threats, the old ones not gone,  new ones even far less predictable: "Makes me feel naive for being hopeful." Yup. But good that some people still are that naive.

 

B plot with Stevie: It was so coming. Past episode the mention of Alison posting on Instagram and now Alison being too eager to show off and keep up with / entertain /  impress her schoolmates, getting others, her sister, in trouble with it. Right, the kids should have had a lecture about Social Media does and don'ts and more, but I am not surprised they didn't get it. Seeing how often people get in trouble on Social Media, many adults,  there is a general lack of media competence. Even PR folks make mistakes on their private accounts, and they so should know better.

Edited April 13, 2015 by myril

[MissLucas]

But, yup, the good old Russian submarine lost plot. But they let Helsinger (the retiree) say it even, that he has "seen this movie before". LOL

 

I liked how they tied in the story of the retiree, of Ezra Lyle Helsinger, his experience of decades with Cold War and sabre-rattling, and based on that asking some important right questions.

 

I think that was my favorite episode so far. I have a thing for submarines so there was that. And I did love that sneaky remark about having seen that movie before. Submarine plots are always great because everybody knows that a lot has been hushed up over the decades.

 

Only one minor quibble - IIRC Dr. Arm Candy completely forgot to mention that St. Nicolas is also the patron Saint of all sailors. Quite an important detail in this context.

Edited April 13, 2015 by MissLucas

[needschocolate]

I don't get why they had to lie about the 20 crew members dying with the rest of them.  I felt that the Russian leaders know the true story, but I can't figure out how it benefits the Russians. 

 

Why not say that there was a collision and the US came to the aid of the Russian sub, but, by the time they were able to rescue them, all but 20 had died.  How does all of them dying make the Russians look better than if 20 survive?  Was it fear that the survivors would tell the true story?  Seems to me that the Russians would have more control over what the crew members say (because they could more easily carry out threats that control them), if the crew members stayed in Russian - just tell them "Here's the story you are giving to the press, and anyone else you talk to. Read it an memorize it.  If you ever tell what really happened you will be imprisoned for treason and your family will pay the price." 

 

With the resolution they came up with, they are in effect saying, "Here's your new life story, never contact your family again, and if you ever tell the true story in a Starbucks in Boise, we will somehow find out and your family will pay the price."

 

I am so glad they rescued those remaining Russian officers. I figured they had handled it in a hush-hush way, but when the news report said there were no survivors I got concerned. If that had really been the case, I would have been ticked at everyone for taking too long to negotiate. 

 

As Henry and the POR (President of Russia) were discussing saints and fathers, and having a nice little chat, I was thinking that they need to stop wasting time and make a call.  When the POR said "I will call your president," I thought he was going to add "...after I meet with my cabinet" or "...in the morning" or "...when I am done plucking the grouse."  It had to take some time to arrange the meeting and physically rescue the men, that two hours was down to minutes.  I figured there was no way the show was going to have the men die, but  I became very aware of the ticking clock in the background of that scene. 

[Netfoot]

This show is supposed to be about a talented, capable woman in a position of high responsibility.  Yet more and more, the sub-text seems to be "If you think she's something, check out her man!"

 

The show is called "Madam Secretary," and not "Madam Secretary's Amazing Husband."  He needs to be less globe trotting, rubbing shoulders with the Russian president, and saving the world from nuclear war, and more staying at home and loading the washing machine. 

[secnarf]

I kind of like that both Henry and Bess are capable, and equal partners in their marriage - they're used to working together, and reducing Henry to someone who stays home and does laundry seems like a disservice to both of them. However, Dr Arm Candy is definitely venturing into Mary Sue territory. It hasn't yet ruined the character for me, so I'm quite willing to forgive at this point. I really don't like the idea of having to dumb him down to make Bess look good. I think they both come off stronger this way.

[orza]

I don't get why they had to lie about the 20 crew members dying with the rest of them.  I felt that the Russian leaders know the true story, but I can't figure out how it benefits the Russians. 

 

Why not say that there was a collision and the US came to the aid of the Russian sub, but, by the time they were able to rescue them, all but 20 had died.  How does all of them dying make the Russians look better than if 20 survive?  Was it fear that the survivors would tell the true story?  Seems to me that the Russians would have more control over what the crew members say (because they could more easily carry out threats that control them), if the crew members stayed in Russian - just tell them "Here's the story you are giving to the press, and anyone else you talk to. Read it an memorize it.  If you ever tell what really happened you will be imprisoned for treason and your family will pay the price." 

 

With the resolution they came up with, they are in effect saying, "Here's your new life story, never contact your family again, and if you ever tell the true story in a Starbucks in Boise, we will somehow find out and your family will pay the price."

 

 

It benefits the Russians to the extent it saved them the trouble of conducting secret court-martials and executions because they would not want it to become public that the crew had mutinied when ordered to destroy the submarine and themselves in the process. Giving the survivors asylum and new identities was a humanitarian act and keeping it secret while calling the whole thing an accident was a concession the US made so Russia could save face and stand down.

Edited April 14, 2015 by orza

[shapeshifter]

...As Henry and the POR (President of Russia) were discussing saints and fathers, and having a nice little chat, I was thinking that they need to stop wasting time and make a call.  When the POR said "I will call your president," I thought he was going to add "...

...when I am done plucking the grouse."

Hee! I can hear him saying it!

Even if this show does not have time travel or worm holes or alternate universes, it still has TV time where folks can drive from Sacramento to Yosemite, go for a hike, and be back in Sacto in time for dinner (like on The Mentalist).

[needschocolate]

It benefits the Russians to the extent it saved them the trouble of conducting secret court-martials and executions because they would not want it to become public that the crew had mutinied when ordered to destroy the submarine and themselves in the process. Giving the survivors asylum and new identities was a humanitarian act and keeping it secret while calling the whole thing an accident was a concession the US made so Russia could save face and stand down.

 

Thanks for the explanation, but I am still confused  -- They are counting on the surviving crewmen to stay quiet in the US, so why couldn't they just have them stay quiet in Russia?  They don't have to have court martials and executions, they just need to say there was an accident, 20 were rescued, and the rest died.  That isn't much different than the story they are going with - There was an accident and everyone died. 

 

The only reasoning I can see for having the survivors hide out in the US instead is so they don't have to deal with the survivors being on the Russian news and saying something they shouldn't.  But the survivors would have good reason to stick to the i survived an accident story - if they tell what happened then they can be charged with treason (and I don't think that they would expect a fair trial at that point). 

 

There is a good chance that the American crewman saw the Russians come aboard or know that they are in the ship's infirmary.  How likely is it that they will all keep quiet?  It is possible that the American crewmen don't know all the true details and could easily believe the "There was an accident and 20 survived and are going back to Russia after we are done treating them." But it might be impossible to get all the American crewman to go along with the story that the Russians had all died.   

 

I am the only one questioning this so I have to assume that I am misunderstanding something.  However, to me, it feels like the writers were trying too hard to be clever with the result. 

[Kromm]

Thanks for the explanation, but I am still confused  -- They are counting on the surviving crewmen to stay quiet in the US, so why couldn't they just have them stay quiet in Russia?  They don't have to have court martials and executions, they just need to say there was an accident, 20 were rescued, and the rest died.  That isn't much different than the story they are going with - There was an accident and everyone died.

These writers aren't that smart, so I doubt there's any complex explanation behind it, but I suspect the gist of it is that the 20 Russians are currently in American hands and the story is positing that the Russians are more barbaric, ergo if we turned the men over the easiest way to assure their silence would be to kill them. That's why the bitching about us having to buy those men's lives. It's not that the Russian's COULDN'T use the same scare tactics against the families if the men were at home back in Russia, but that nobody involves trusts them to not take the easy way out.

In other words despite all the stuff in the story about the religious background of the Russian leader, the final statement on them is "Russians = barbarians, Americans = good".

[orza]

Thanks for the explanation, but I am still confused  -- They are counting on the surviving crewmen to stay quiet in the US, so why couldn't they just have them stay quiet in Russia?  They don't have to have court martials and executions, they just need to say there was an accident, 20 were rescued, and the rest died.  That isn't much different than the story they are going with - There was an accident and everyone died. 

 

The only reasoning I can see for having the survivors hide out in the US instead is so they don't have to deal with the survivors being on the Russian news and saying something they shouldn't.  But the survivors would have good reason to stick to the i survived an accident story - if they tell what happened then they can be charged with treason (and I don't think that they would expect a fair trial at that point). 

 

There is a good chance that the American crewman saw the Russians come aboard or know that they are in the ship's infirmary.  How likely is it that they will all keep quiet?  It is possible that the American crewmen don't know all the true details and could easily believe the "There was an accident and 20 survived and are going back to Russia after we are done treating them." But it might be impossible to get all the American crewman to go along with the story that the Russians had all died.  

No they can't just let it go. It is a matter of military law. It would be like letting a kidnapping or a terrorist act go because the hostages were freed so no real harm was done or something like like. Mutiny is right up there with treason in terms of the seriousness of the offense. It undermines the most fundamental principle of military discipline. The punishment for mutiny is very severe in any country, sometimes it is death.

 

The US was taking the 20 men to save their lives. Everyone in the situation room knew the men would be executed if they returned to Russia. American military personnel involved in any phase of the operation would be signing documents swearing them to secrecy. People do that all the time in the military and they keep their mouths shut or they face a court-martial. The Russians were members off an elite submarine crew. They already know what it means to keep secrets.and that they endanger themselves and their families back in Russia if they don't keep their mouths shut.

[needschocolate]

No they can't just let it go. It is a matter of military law. It would be like letting a kidnapping or a terrorist act go because the hostages were freed so no real harm was done or something like like. Mutiny is right up there with treason in terms of the seriousness of the offense. It undermines the most fundamental principle of military discipline. The punishment for mutiny is very severe in any country, sometimes it is death.

 

The US was taking the 20 men to save their lives. Everyone in the situation room knew the men would be executed if they returned to Russia. American military personnel involved in any phase of the operation would be signing documents swearing them to secrecy. People do that all the time in the military and they keep their mouths shut or they face a court-martial. The Russians were members off an elite submarine crew. They already know what it means to keep secrets.and that they endanger themselves and their families back in Russia if they don't keep their mouths shut.

 

Are you saying that the Russians don't know the men are still alive? 

 

I was under the impression that the POR knows that the survivors will be living in the US with new identities.  That is why I couldn't understand why he was okay with "getting away with treason" if they started new lives in the US, but wasn't okay with them "getting away with treason if they went back to Russia (and my point was they don't have to charge them with treason and have a trial in Russia because no one except the crewmen and the US government knew that they committed treason). 

[orza]

Yes, Ostrov knew the 20 men were alive. It was all laid out in the episode what and why they were doing things the way they did. It was all about saving face for Russia. Ostruv knew that the crew disobeyed orders issued from the highest level and mutinied but could never admit that publicly. He also could not admit that he lost the game of chicken he started. The US gave Ostrov a way to stand down without losing face and looking like the bad guy to the whole world and keep remnants of his pride intact. Part of that deal was the US would not hand over the 20 men the navy rescued and agreed to keep that secret.

 

I get your point that you think the Russians did not have to court-martial the men, but that is not how military organizations work, especially under authoritarian regimes.

[Kromm]

Also the Russian leader, despite being the head of an authoritarian regime, is not the only person who could cause trouble if those men went back to Russia. It's easier for HIM to cover the whole thing up if they're gone--be it in their graves, or with them being hidden in the US, where if a rumor spread of them still being alive, he could shrug it off and deny it (or blame it on the US and say its out of his hands).

[needschocolate]

Thank you, Kromm and Orza, for the explanations and, especially, your patience.  I think I get it now - or I am starting too, anyway. 

[shapeshifter]

No they can't just let it go. It is a matter of military law. It would be like letting a kidnapping or a terrorist act go because the hostages were freed so no real harm was done or something like like. Mutiny is right up there with treason in terms of the seriousness of the offense. It undermines the most fundamental principle of military discipline. The punishment for mutiny is very severe in any country, sometimes it is death...

The situation is sort of the reverse of the current Snowden situation. The Russians are letting him stay in Russia knowing that if he was returned to the U.S. that he would be tried for treason. As with the fictional Russian mutineers, Snowden believes he was morally justified in leaking documents. The analogy is a little bit of a stretch, but I wonder if any of the writers thought of it. Edited April 15, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Netfoot]

I kind of like that both Henry and Bess are capable, and equal partners in their marriage - they're used to working together, and reducing Henry to someone who stays home and does laundry seems like a disservice to both of them.

 

I know that's what my post sounded like, but I wasn't really suggesting that.  It's just that if they want him to be awesome like his wife, he should be awesome in his own field.  He could have been a Nobel prize winning biochemist, or a theoretical cosmologist or something.  Something where he wouldn't be stealing her thunder.  It isn't right that he is now an active participant in the top echelons of Washington politics, and Téa (the titular star of the show) is reduced to passing messages between him and the President, like some sort of carrier pigeon.

 

Over the course of the season they've given Henry accolade after accolade, from published poet to samurai sword-smith. Now, he's a CIA (NSA?) operative, rubbing shoulders with presidents?   

[shapeshifter]

...Over the course of the season they've given Henry accolade after accolade, from published poet to samurai sword-smith. Now, he's a CIA (NSA?) operative, rubbing shoulders with presidents?

It's a valid point, and yet he manages to still be a likable, aw-shucks kind of guy, and Bess still manages to look awesome in the cool-head-when-all-others-are-losing-theirs sort of way.

[needschocolate]

I know that's what my post sounded like, but I wasn't really suggesting that.  It's just that if they want him to be awesome like his wife, he should be awesome in his own field.  He could have been a Nobel prize winning biochemist, or a theoretical cosmologist or something.  Something where he wouldn't be stealing her thunder.  It isn't right that he is now an active participant in the top echelons of Washington politics, and Téa (the titular star of the show) is reduced to passing messages between him and the President, like some sort of carrier pigeon.

 

Over the course of the season they've given Henry accolade after accolade, from published poet to samurai sword-smith. Now, he's a CIA (NSA?) operative, rubbing shoulders with presidents?   

 

I was okay with the passing messages aspect of this episode because it seems the real reason he was invited to Russia was because he is married to the SOS.  I am also okay with both spouses being really good at what they do.  While I get what you are saying about having him be amazing in his field, I am okay that him being good at things in her realm because, if his accolades were for writing, scientific research, medicine, it would be hard to work that into the plot (how often coudl he perform surgery on a visiting dignitary?).  It would be nice to see her come to his rescue too, but I think the premise of the show makes that unlikely.  As long as the shows revolves around dealing with the SOS office, it is going to be Bess that is in a jam and needs help, because every episode is about a problem she is having.  

 

That said, it would be nice to have a show that was about two people that each have high-powered jobs and they come to each other's rescue now and then - like this show but revolving around both of their work lives and not the SOS office.  

 

I am a bit miffed because every show I watch about a woman with power (this show and Good Wife), the husband has power and saves her now and then.  However, I can't think of any show I watch where the husband has power and the wife, who has power in her own field, saves him now and then.  I watch plenty of show where a man is in charge, but a woman doesn't come to his rescue.  

[secnarf]

I am a bit miffed because every show I watch about a woman with power (this show and Good Wife), the husband has power and saves her now and then.  However, I can't think of any show I watch where the husband has power and the wife, who has power in her own field, saves him now and then.  I watch plenty of show where a man is in charge, but a woman doesn't come to his rescue.  

This is off-topic, but that is one of the things that I find so compelling about X Company - despite it taking place during WWII, they have a woman leading the team and she is shown as strong and capable and not needing the men to save her - at least, not any more than the men need her to save them :P

 

I don't watch the Good Wife so I can't really comment on that.

 

I didn't get the sense that Bess was the carrier pidgeon in this episode - moreso that Henry was. It was Bess' plan and she used Henry to pass the message along to the Russian president.

[jordanpond]

 

 

I liked the SoS's pants, just the way they fit.  They made her ass look really good, yet she seemed super comfortable.  To each their own I guess.

To me, any outfit which has the potential to make the secretary of state's backside look good or not good automatically fails. If it gives this much information about she/he is built, then it's not proper office attire.

[33kaitykaity]

To me, any outfit which has the potential to make the secretary of state's backside look good or not good automatically fails. If it gives this much information about she/he is built, then it's not proper office attire.

So appearance, the primary factor in judging women, automatically disqualifies a woman from any position of substance.  Talk about a catch-22!

[jordanpond]

I don't understand.Are you saying that appearance should be the primary factor in judging women?

Because I don't agree.

In my post, I wasn't talking about just women. If either a male or female secretary of state is wearing something that reveals whether or not she/he has a nice backside, in my opinion they need to see Blake ASAP in order to find something less revealing!

[33kaitykaity]

I don't understand.Are you saying that appearance should be the primary factor in judging women?

Because I don't agree.

In my post, I wasn't talking about just women. If either a male or female secretary of state is wearing something that reveals whether or not she/he has a nice backside, in my opinion they need to see Blake ASAP in order to find something less revealing!

You're disqualifying her because she looks too good.  You did that and now you're denying it.  Sorry, playing confused or proffering false equivalency won't wash.  

[jordanpond]

Oh, dear. This conversation definitely went in a path I did not intend.

I never said that she looked good. I never even noticed her backside. However, as did the original poster on this topic, I did recall her wearing very unusual (and in my opinion, unprofessional looking) pants.

After you commented on how her backside looked in them, I made the general comment that if what the secretary of state wears to work allows people to evaluate whether her/his behind is good, then maybe he/she should wear something less revealing.

All I can say is that something really, really got "lost in the translation" between the point I was trying to make, and how you interpreted what I said. And that's fine. It happens all the time on message boards, as in life.

Hope next season we both continue to enjoy this series as much as we do now.

Edited May 28, 2015 by jordanpond