S03.E11: One Day In The Life Of Anton Baklanov

[ToastnBacon]

Well, I just think there would be no possible way for Paige to develop loyalty to the Soviet Union of all places against her own country, the place she grew up in and knows, unless maybe taking her there would be a way to instill some connection to it inside her. So I'm assuming that's what this trip might do, but then again, Russia was a pretty bad place at the time, so maybe it would end up backfiring.

I think it would have a stronger chance of backfiring.

I'm leaning toward the trip being a trip to Florida with Paige's church.

[ruby24]

But why would that put them in "dangerous territory"?

[Umbelina]

Dangerous territory could mean anything though.  Slums, projects in the USA would also be "dangerous territory."  Pretty much everywhere Elizabeth goes turns into "dangerous territory though."  ;)   Although it probably is Russia. 

[ToastnBacon]

But why would that put them in "dangerous territory"?

Paige and Elizabeth arguing over religious ideology would be dangerous territory because it could cause irreparable damage to their relationship.

[ruby24]

Something else I just realized- it's only a couple of years before Gorbachev was elected anyway, and things started changing within Russia. Presumably the Centre wouldn't start to use Paige until she's at least a little older, right? Like 21 or something? What could they really use her for as a teenager in the first place?

 

By the time she's old enough to be of use, the Berlin Wall will have come down. I don't see how this recruit Paige story can really go anywhere, unless they want to start using her like, right now.

[ToastnBacon]

Something else I just realized- it's only a couple of years before Gorbachev was elected anyway, and things started changing within Russia. Presumably the Centre wouldn't start to use Paige until she's at least a little older, right? Like 21 or something? What could they really use her for as a teenager in the first place?

 

By the time she's old enough to be of use, the Berlin Wall will have come down. I don't see how this recruit Paige story can really go anywhere, unless they want to start using her like, right now.

Good point. The Centre would want Paige to go to college, get a security clearance and infiltrate a government agency, or a defense contractor.

Paige's real value as a spy would be that she would have the credentials that could withstand a background check.

It would be another 10 years at a minimum before she would be in a position to provide valuable intelligence.

If this show was more realistic, that is.

[sistermagpie]

It would be another 10 years at a minimum before she would be in a position to provide valuable intelligence.

If this show was more realistic, that is.

 

 

Well, we don't know how realistic they are on this. According to Claudia this is supposed to be the idea. Maybe they'll want to do something with her as a teenager--I would absolutely hate that and I think it would turn the thing into a YA novel, but we don't know that that's the plan. There's spy stuff her parents could teach her that aren't a big deal, after all, like how to be observant. There are people who teach their kids that anyway.

 

I assume that was supposed to be the plan with Jared. He was going to Carnegie Melon to be an engineer.

[ruby24]

Well, I do think this show tries to be somewhat realistic about a lot of this- and there's nothing they could want Paige to do as a 15 year old that could possibly be of any use. It's for positions way in the future (but of course we know by that time there'd be no point). Given that reality, it's sort of hard to see how this storyline wouldn't be more likely to serve as the catalyst for Philip and Elizabeth's eventual downfall (or at least one of them), rather than Paige the Teenage Spy.

Edited April 10, 2015 by ruby24

[whiporee]

And the Centre has no idea that Glasnost is coming. What will happen in the future has no bearing on their wanting her now for whatever plans they might have for her. 

[paramitch]

I thought this episode was interesting because, for me, it was all about blurred lines and convergences. All these worlds of Philip and Elizabeth's are overlapping like crazy and it's hugely suspenseful and messy:
 

1. Instead of a mark who jumps her without regard to her feelings (the usual reaction), with the hotel guy, Elizabeth must deal with a guy who attempts to make the sex meaningful and intimate. My take on the scene was that it both turned her on, and made her profoundly uncomfortable. To me, it seemed like Elizabeth was far less disconnected than usual and as a result, she had this weird "unfaithful" feeling, versus the colder, "sex accomplished, target engaged" feeling. This was further emphasized later, I felt, when she didn't sleep with the guy again even though she seemed to want to, and then on returning home initiated sex with Philip immediately.
    
2. Martha and Clarke are now combining spycraft with their marriage, with Clarke actually teaching Martha how to be a better liar and to outwit the FBI. I found it a really compelling scene, and oddly sweet. The complexity of Martha stumbling over how to describe their relationship and how she should manage her knowledge at work was beautifully done.
    
3. Paige is now testing the boundaries between her parents and "her parents the spies" and her everyday family life. I agree with those who don't really enjoy Paige, but I understand what the character provides in terms of Elizabeth and Philip and their lives.
    
4. Nina may or may not be sympathetic to the scientist she's working/observing. Is she now working with him? We saw definite glimmerings of sympathy there.
    
5. Elizabeth's long con on her Northrup 'friend' changes when hubby Maurice point-blank starts naming prices and making demands. (And just like that, they are now coworkers and co-conspirators.) I'd worry more about Maurice, who I'm sure is doomed, except that we've already seen he is a freeloading, wife-beating lowlife in the past, so I can't say I'll mourn him when Elizabeth inevitably has to take him out. But the actor's phenomenal.
    
6. Elizabeth has been told she cannot cross the line back to Russia, even to see her dying mother. Philip point-blank requests to reverse this and subtly even threatens Gabriel.
    

Elizabeth knows that Hans screwed up his mission and then went rogue by killing someone.  Why in the world would she suggest him to back up Philip?

Agreed. I was really surprised by this as well -- Hans is, to me, very unstable.

 

Interestingly, Philip and Elizabeth are cracking. Elizabeth now doesn't like honey-trapping. We know Philip is struggling with seducing Kimmie but that's for good reasons. We also know from last season and this season that they're having more and more trouble with the violence, especially the collateral kind. Elizabeth priorised Philip's son getting out of harm's way and simultaneously Philip is prioritising Elizabeth visiting her dying mother. Gabriel's an experienced guy, the handwriting's on the wall. Family is becoming number one and mission an increasingly distant second. And Paige might have been the last straw that broke the horse's back. Ever since they told Paige, they're now looking at themselves at the mirror honestly probably for the first and they don't like it.

I think this is what's at the core of "The Americans." It's always been about marriage and family, although I love the spycraft and suspense and find that really well-done by the show. After the first two seasons were focused on P&E and their marriage, I can see where shifting the focus to Paige and the kids (and "the family" as a unit) changes things for the show while continuing to magnify the issues they face. 

 

I get why they're doing it, I just feel like this storyline has been a bit forced this season. I'm reserving judgment to see where it goes, but I admit that I had a hard time with the idea that P&E aren't masterful actors enough to play their daughter without completely revealing the bald truth to their lives and allegiances.

 

I also agree with you that Nina is totally playing the scientist, and that even if she does have real sympathy for him, she'll do anything to save herself and prove her loyalty. It's just who she is.

 

Now I don't know what to think of Martha....this episode she certainly didn't seem to have any inside scheme going on she was not telling Phillip about, which is what I thought was happening last episode. She certainly got off far too easy in that interview though. Has to be more than that, especially when she was explicitly asked about her relationships right up front, and lied. Maybe he knew she was lying and is now figuring out what to do next.

I was fascinated by that interview, which made me wonder if in fact someone is watching Martha's flat. If they are, then they're seeing Clarke show up once or twice per week -- or they will -- which means they'll know she's lying. And if she's lying about one thing, she may be lying about others.

 

Well, I just think there would be no possible way for Paige to develop loyalty to the Soviet Union of all places against her own country, the place she grew up in and knows, unless maybe taking her there would be a way to instill some connection to it inside her. So I'm assuming that's what this trip might do, but then again, Russia was a pretty bad place at the time, so maybe it would end up backfiring.

 

I agree that that's exactly what would most likely happen. I'm not a big fan of this storyline, but if they do go there, I can't help but wonder if it doesn't backfire not only on Paige (who may very well hate the feeling of oppression, hunger, want, etc.), but even on P&E. It's been decades since they were back. What if they go back and go, "We're fighting for THIS?"

 

Last but not least, one of the things that's maddening about Gabriel, is that he has basically spent the entire season looking balefully and suspiciously at Philip, asking him constantly, "Are you losing it? Are you cracking? Are you okay?" then when Philip responds with anger and frustration, Gabriel looks at him with this kind of amiable bland hurt expression, going "What's wrong? I love you. We all love you." Etc. It's very interesting and very subtle and has to be driving Philip absolutely crazy.

 

And yet at the same time, I love Langella in the role and find Gabriel fascinating. I just wish I ever, for one minute, really felt like Gabriel cared about them. I wish we could see him actually prioritize them, not play them. Granny was rather chilly, but even so I got the feeling more than once that she had in fact truly backed up P&E (after her early mistake with them, hee). I'll be delighted to see Martindale back if she returns, as I adore her and love the rather precise diction she gives Granny. It's perfect English and yet you can feel a kind of translation or foreignness behind it.

 

ETA: Oops, missing words change everything!

Edited April 10, 2015 by paramitch

[Umbelina]

Let's hope Paige doesn't go to a party in the meantime, and have someone give her booze, or pot, or drugs...like, in the next 5 years or more of her life.  No getting stoned or drunk for you missy!  You might spill mom and dad's secrets! 

 

BTW, I thought Elizabeth used her sex training to "get wet" for the guy.  Next time she won't forget to pre-lube.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Umbelina

[AGuyToo]

I cannot imagine a Reagan speech changing the views of Pastor Tim or other liberals on any subject -- certainly nothing as fundamental to their worldview as wanting to limit nuclear weapons. While Reagan was a hero to conservative America, he was certainly not a hero to liberal America. (Full disclosure: As a 15 year old in 1984, I was a campaign volunteer for Walter Mondale.)

 

My sense is that Pastor Tim is politically considerably to the left of Jimmy Carter, the American president most personally associated with evangelical Christianity. Reagan had strong support among most evangelicals, but it did not extend to that (admittedly small) section of the movement. For liberals, the fear was that Reagan's thinking was simplistic -- too black and white -- and, despite his gifts as a speaker, his rhetoric often seemed careless ("We begin bombing in five minutes.")

 

(To be fair, I should add that I think that Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, both gifted speakers, have also never persuaded anybody on the other side of anything. And a conservative would probably criticize them in similar terms.)

 

I can buy Pastor Tim going to Miami to protest against Reagan's speech, but I can't buy him being swayed by it.

 

 

I just went and read Reagan's speech and the first part of it is Reagan supporting prayer in schools, and rolling back government funding of family planning.

He didn't get to the Evil Empire part until the end of the speech, and it was very powerful stuff that surely would have resonated with a religious audience.

Reagan was a very gifted speaker and I'm sure he was capable of giving a "no nuke" congregation a pause to rethink their position.

Edited April 10, 2015 by AGuyToo

[AllyB]

Just on the Stan, Oleg, Zenaida, Nina plot. I've never been convinced that Stan is telling Oleg the truth about trading Zenaida for Nina. He wants to know the truth about Zenaida and when searching the places she's been alone, like the bathroom, got him nothing more than a bruised crotch he needed a better plan. So he decided to use Oleg's feelings for Nina to his advantage. I don't really believe he is that invested in freeing Nina. If he can, well and good, but that will be a byproduct of his scheme not the aim of it.

[shura]

Elizabeth's long con on her Northrup 'friend' changes when hubby Maurice point-blank starts naming prices and making demands. (And just like that, they are now coworkers and co-conspirators.) I'd worry more about Maurice, who I'm sure is doomed, except that we've already seen he is a freeloading, wife-beating lowlife in the past, so I can't say I'll mourn him when Elizabeth inevitably has to take him out.

 

Also, Maurice seems to see no problem in letting Elizabeth do what she is doing as long as he gets the right amount of money out of it. So I have to chuckle at the cheers going Maurice's way for calling out Elizabeth and showing her that she is not as slick as she thinks she is. Yay, you go, Maurice, good job :)!

 

I wonder if Lisa also knows what Elizabeth is actually doing. She seems to be a more upstanding person with good values. Would she agree to sell out her country for the right price? Or does she think it really is acceptable to give classified info to someone who asks for it?

[Couch Sweet Potato]

 

Presumably the Centre wouldn't start to use Paige until she's at least a little older, right? Like 21 or something? What could they really use her for as a teenager in the first place?

Well, one way they could use her right now that would actually be a big relief to everybody (especially us!) would be to make Paige the primary contact for Kimmie. "Jim" could bring his daughter along (he told her he has a family, right?) and the girls could chat while he changes the tape. Kimmie needs a good influence friend her own age anyway.

[sistermagpie]

And yet at the same time, I love Langella in the role and find Gabriel fascinating. I just wish I ever, for one minute, really felt like Gabriel cared about them. I wish we could see him actually prioritize them, not play them. Granny was rather chilly, but even so I got the feeling more than once that she had in fact truly backed up P&E (after her early mistake with them, hee). 

 

 

Yes, it's funny that Philip seems to be point blank telling him that the problem is that he knows Gabriel doesn't care about him at all and the one thing Gabriel seems unable to do is convincingly seem to care about Philip at all. It's like everything he does is obvious manipulation--and downright cruel, actually, when he's telling him about his alleged son while pushing him to sleep with Kimmie. I'd almost be interested in seeing earlier scenes with him and Philip to see how they used to be because it was the minute he and Elizabeth started gleefully plotting about Paige that Gabriel became the enemy to Philip and his hurt over this indicates he actually may have thought Gabriel would have been in his corner. Gabriel seems to get that Philip's motivation comes from asking himself what he can do to make the world a little better for people--he knows how to work his overdeveloped sense of responsibility. But he never seems to appeal to his need to feel personally accepted--though it's always seemed like the Centre ignored that for Philip (not Elizabeth) anyway.

 

Really, Philip's an interesting parallel to Paige this season. He, too, is furious at his "parent" and feeling like he sees through all his lies at last. Only with Paige her parents clearly do actually love her and she knows that. They do try to answer her questions truthfully and are honestly upset. Gabriel just keeps revealing that he's a liar to Philip--though Elizabeth's fine with him. In fact, it's interesting that the show seems to, as ever, be going in the direction of Elizabeth needing to create a fabulous bond with Paige that's wonderful for both of them when I wonder if they're going to deal with the fact that Elizabeth was indeed going to that church as a professional in order to manipulate Paige. Will Paige come to that kind of realization about her mother? Or will she be more like Elizabeth with Gabriel, not completely vulnerable to his manipulations but not betrayed by them either?

 

Also, I wonder if Grannie is brought in to help with them since Grannie, too, favored Elizabeth and Elizabeth's feelings over Philip's, despite feeling protective of both of them as a handler. Is Grannie going to facilitate the trip to Russia, for instance? Or will she handle Philip better by actually admitting that she disliked him and tried to hurt him in the past but honestly came to care about him and just only told Elizabeth that because Elizabeth's feelings are more important?

 

That paragraph also just made me think of Kimmie saying to Jim that she thought he was the only one who cared about her. The parallels between Paige and Kimmie are very obvious but I think it's Philip himself who's really more in tune with her emotionally. Paige feels lied to and hurt and angry and confused, but she's able to throw that in her parents' faces and get reactions. She knows they do care and even uses that to demand the truth. Kimmie just wanders around invisible remembering symbolic gestures of not caring. Even in the picture with her parents they're smiling and have their arms around her and she's still an outsider. It's a big deal for her that she called Jim and he actually appeared to pick her up - just as it was a big deal to Philip that he told her about his son and she prayed for him.

 

Well, one way they could use her right now that would actually be a big relief to everybody (especially us!) would be to make Paige the primary contact for Kimmie. "Jim" could bring his daughter along (he told her he has a family, right?) and the girls could chat while he changes the tape. Kimmie needs a good influence friend her own age anyway.

 

 

No, "Jim" has no family--that would be completely wrong for the character. And it would be crazy for the KGB to expect Paige to basically act as an agent in getting info from the head of the CIA. Jim is a carefully constructed character made to appeal to Kimmie. Paige would just be some random girl.  They're not toddlers where you just put them in a playpen and they amuse each other, they're two very different teenagers. In fact, Kimmie would probably greatly resent the idea that Jim has another 15 year old stashed away--not to mention it'd be hard to explain exactly how he struck up a relationship with Little Miss Youth Group 1983. (Paige, on her part, would probably blow the whole mission by standing up and lecturing her father on how terrible it is that he's lying to this girl and smoking pot with her and oh yeah, kind of in a romance with her.)

[Blakeston]

Nina wasn't like this - she was an agent of compromise and like as not, the FBI already knows pretty much everything Nina has to tell.  Not an asset worth trading for IMO, and she might well be a double for all the FBI knows.

 

I'm beginning to suspect that Nina, upon learning the details of Anton's research, will somehow communicate to the FBI (maybe through Oleg to Stan) that she has inside information about ARPAnet. I think the Americans would find that extremely valuable, and be willing to make a trade for her.

 

I'd think it would be a very bad move for the American government to let Zinaida return to the USSR, though. More because of PR than anything else - I'd think the last thing they'd want would be for word to get out that their mouthpiece regarding the Soviet/Afghan War was lying.

 

Also, Maurice seems to see no problem in letting Elizabeth do what she is doing as long as he gets the right amount of money out of it. So I have to chuckle at the cheers going Maurice's way for calling out Elizabeth and showing her that she is not as slick as she thinks she is. Yay, you go, Maurice, good job :)!

 

I wonder if Lisa also knows what Elizabeth is actually doing. She seems to be a more upstanding person with good values. Would she agree to sell out her country for the right price? Or does she think it really is acceptable to give classified info to someone who asks for it?

 

I don't think even Maurice knows that Elizabeth is a secret agent. I think he probably suspects that she's working for a competing contractor, as opposed to a competing nation.

[whiporee]

Reagan's speech galvanized the left against him, and certainly left-leaning kids. I was 16 in 1983, and I remember thinking -- and talking to my pals, who were also pretty left (mostly listening to a lot of Bob Marley) -- that this fucker was dangerous. I think that would be Groovyhair and Paige's reaction to it, not that they would be convinced to think America, Hell Yeah! If I were speculating, I would guess that this season ends with Paige agreeing to some degree or recruitment, and next year that all gets twisted by KAL 007. 

 

You have to remember that '83 was very close to Watergate and Vietnam in public terms, and the idea that America is awesome wasn't nearly strong then as it's been post 9-11. Reagan was working on it, building up blind patriotism and Morning in America, but it wasn't there yet. 

[ToastnBacon]

Well, one way they could use her right now that would actually be a big relief to everybody (especially us!) would be to make Paige the primary contact for Kimmie. "Jim" could bring his daughter along (he told her he has a family, right?) and the girls could chat while he changes the tape. Kimmie needs a good influence friend her own age anyway.

I have no doubt that they could write the script that way, but I hope they don't. It would be tremendously annoying to watch, especially if you viewed it through the lens of reality.

Heck, two teenage girls that have both been ignored by their CIA and KGB parents would very likely form a strong bond, and possibly go rouge.

Plus, I could see that going south for Phillip very quickly.

I'm pretty sure Phillip wouldn't want Paige to know about him leading Kimmie to the brink of having sex, smoking pot with her, and pretending to have a religious transformation.

[RedHawk]

I'm beginning to suspect that Nina, upon learning the details of Anton's research, will somehow communicate to the FBI (maybe through Oleg to Stan) that she has inside information about ARPAnet. I think the Americans would find that extremely valuable, and be willing to make a trade for her.

I'm pretty sure Anton is working on something to do with the STEALTH weapons, not ARPAnet, which was the underlying framework of the Internet. He needs photos to continue his work, not code.

[ToastnBacon]

Reagan's speech galvanized the left against him, and certainly left-leaning kids. I was 16 in 1983, and I remember thinking -- and talking to my pals, who were also pretty left (mostly listening to a lot of Bob Marley) -- that this fucker was dangerous. I think that would be Groovyhair and Paige's reaction to it, not that they would be convinced to think America, Hell Yeah! If I were speculating, I would guess that this season ends with Paige agreeing to some degree or recruitment, and next year that all gets twisted by KAL 007. 

 

You have to remember that '83 was very close to Watergate and Vietnam in public terms, and the idea that America is awesome wasn't nearly strong then as it's been post 9-11. Reagan was working on it, building up blind patriotism and Morning in America, but it wasn't there yet.

Good points, but to anyone religious who listened to Reagan quote Lenin rejecting all morality derived from supernatural beliefs, I doubt it made them a sympathizer of the Soviet Union either.

Yes, I get it, the left hated Regan and still does, but I don't think the Evil Empire speech would drive Pastor Tim and Paige into the arms of the Soviet Union.

Especially since the speech was crafted for a religious audience.

Here is a link to it: http://millercenter.org/president/speeches/speech-3409

[ChromaKelly]

Something that occurred to me during the beeep scene - Elizabeth killed the older woman in the repair shop in order to get that bug planted. And this is the valuable information that was worth taking a life for, idle chit-chat. Wondering if E will find out the bug has gleaned nothing and start her down the road of questioning whether this is all worth it. We could see that Philip is also having the "is it worth it" thoughts regarding Annelise.
Not that I think the US was more moral in the Cold War, but P&E have been doing all this with the thought that they are making the world a better place. Maybe they will see that the USSR is playing games too and all these people whose "freedom" they are supposedly fighting for are merely pawns. Both sides were playing real-life Risk.
 

[Blakeston]

I'm pretty sure Anton is working on something to do with the STEALTH weapons, not ARPAnet, which was the underlying framework of the Internet. He needs photos to continue his work, not code.

 

That sounds right. He must be quite the scientific jack-of-all-trades.

[Guest]

I'm not going to bail on the show because it was at one point a favorite but I'm close.  I *hate* the Paige stuff.  It probably doesn't help that I watched Nashville before this ep and I hate the Maddie teen drama there as well, so it was just more teen hate.  It also probably doesn't help that I have a girl that age and while she's occasionally a little moody she's nowhere near the idiotic teen stereotype of the insufferable, disrespectful bitch that tv writers seem to be so in love with.   

 

I hate that Martha is just going along with the stranger in her house, too.

 

I don't even care that Elizabeth enjoyed her stranger sex session but went home to Phillip for round 2, like a good wife and mother.  

 

There really aren't any stories I feel invested in-- Hans, Anton, Nina, Northrup, Gabriel...  I guess I missed Stan this episode.  I don't know but the show better turn something around or I'm out after this season.  

[SunnyBeBe]

I've always thought they did not utilize Stan's ability to help them very well.  He has provided them ample opportunity, but it seems Philip ignores it.  Recall he recently shared details about the new guy with Philip.  This created a perfect opportunity to take the heat off Martha, by framing the new guy.  Plus, Philip knows how Stan is about his wife and son, yet they're never used that either.  Perhaps, Philip just wants to let Stan operate without much involvement with him.  Maybe, if the Centre doesn't order it, then he doesn't go there.   

 

There is one thing that Philip should be aware of though.  If the FBI gets too suspicious of Stan and they discover his secret meeting with the soviet guy, they may believe he is responsible for the bug in Gaad's office.  That might mean an investigation into Stan's neighbors and friends, especially Philip and Elizabeth who seem to be his only social contacts.  And regardless of their covers, I don't think they would welcome a lot of scrutiny by an FBI investigation.

[sistermagpie]

I think the fact that Philip rarely works Stan is just proof that he's really is friend. He's not going to him for information, he's going to him for companionship--he's a good friend because although Stan doesn't know it, they're in the same job and have a lot in common. 

 

Though I think underneath if Philip does have designs on Stan they're more about things like hoping Stan would protect his kids if they got caught and wanting to have an eye on him so he can pick up if Stan seems to have figured anything out about them. It's true that Stan could bring unwanted attention down on them if his colleagues start suspecting him, but Philip and Elizabeth probably wouldn't expect that when they moved in. Philip probably thinks of Stan as a good, loyal American so figures he's in good standing at the office.

[henripootel]

I'm beginning to suspect that Nina, upon learning the details of Anton's research, will somehow communicate to the FBI (maybe through Oleg to Stan) that she has inside information about ARPAnet. I think the Americans would find that extremely valuable, and be willing to make a trade for her.

Yeah, but even if she did, it's still be the worst of all situations for Nina.  The FBI may or may not believe she really does have valuable intel but the KGB know she does, since they put her up to sweet-talking the captured scientist guy.  I'd think the KGB wouldn't want her going anywhere, just to be on the safe side.  IRL they were serious and practical this way, plus both countries were reluctant to send their own traitors into nice retirement.  It did happen but traitors to their own countries weren't exactly feted in their new ones, as Kim Philby found out when got out to the Soviet Union after he was finally exposed.  They russians made political hay out of it but they never trusted him, and Philby died an old drunk in a shitty apartment.  They liked traitors even less than we did, and they were considerably less gentle with their own than we are.

I think the fact that Philip rarely works Stan is just proof that he's really is friend.

Whoa, gotta disagree with you, sister.  I don't think Phillip has friends, not even Elizabeth, with whom he shares far more than he can with anybody.  I'm sure he likes Stan fine enough and Stan is a good guy to know, but Stan is also exactly the guy who'll notice things and end them up in the hoosegow.  Stan doesn't suspect them cuz what're the odds you just happen to move in right next to the guys you're looking for?  But that could change.  Now that Paige knows, were I Phillip, I'd find ways to make sure Stan and Paige are never in the same room again. Like ever.

Edited April 10, 2015 by henripootel

[sistermagpie]

Whoa, gotta disagree with you, sister.  I don't think Phillip has friends, not even Elizabeth, with whom he shares far more than he can with anybody.

 

 

Okay, maybe they're not friends by some definitions but if Philip can't have friends, even Elizabeth, I still think that Stan is Philip's version of a friend. He spends time with him without pumping him for info and occasionally even talks to him about his own problems. So while with Philip you can't ever real know everything he's thinking, and he's always going to hold stuff back and in this case look for things that will help him, I don't think he's just using the guy at all. He claimed to Elizabeth at first that he was just using him, but as Elizabeth accepted the idea he stopped claiming that to her and called them friends.

[Blakeston]

Yeah, but even if she did, it's still be the worst of all situations for Nina.  The FBI may or may not believe she really does have valuable intel but the KGB know she does, since they put her up to sweet-talking the captured scientist guy.  I'd think the KGB wouldn't want her going anywhere, just to be on the safe side.

 

Oh, if she tells the KGB that she knows Anton's secrets, I'll have a hard time believing it if she's ever let out of the country again. In the scenario I'm envisioning, she'll cover for him (maybe out of sympathy, but probably for more cunning reasons), and tell them that he's trying as hard as he can.

[henripootel]

Oh, if she tells the KGB that she knows Anton's secrets, I'll have a hard time believing it if she's ever let out of the country again.

She knows who and where Anton is and may have some idea what he's working on, and even point the FBI to areas of compromised intelligence (i.e. the software Anton is using).  Nina's not going anywhere.

[beeble]

Once again, I must be the only one who didn't like the Paige stuff. She's got way too much power now, which is what happens when people try to be their children's friend instead of their parents. WTH? Knocking on P and E's bedroom door before they're even up and demanding to know what they're talking about? How about, "None of your damned business!"?

 

 

I definitely took it differently. I think Paige is reacting the only way she knows how. Her world has been rocked. Now she's wondering and asking, is the travel agency real? Is our neighbor also a spy? Do you really ever have normal conversations? Is everything spy-stuff all the time? The revelation is tantamount to her parents lying to her for her entire life - even if they never technically lied (although I'm sure they did). It was profoundly selfish of them - and all spies - to do have kids for their own "show" purposes. Paige was a part of their facade, and she is pissed off.  Yet she isn't alienating them or partying with the Kimmie crowd. She's trying to engage them but keeping them at arm's length at the same time. I think she's actually being very mature, all things considered. She's a smart kid, and reacts with caution. P & E can't completely pull rank on her because they've lost a lot of their legitimacy as authority figures with her. They might get it back, but they know they have to proceed with caution. 

 

I loved the long hours put in at the Rezidentura only to learn that the FBI vending machine doesn't work and that they're out of toilet paper. Seriously - unless the mail-bot goes into the "vault" it's not going to pick up any serious information. I'd get the giggles after too many beeps myself.

[SunnyBeBe]

So is Philip getting sloppy or is he losing it, as Gabriel asked?  Philip is far more confident in Paige keeping things on the down low than most people would be. He also seems to feel he's safe with Martha being interviewed for a second time with the FBI.  He seemed so nonchalant about it.  He gave Martha a few pointers and a pep talk.  Really?  I would think there would be  some serious training so that she could pass a polygraph.  They know that's coming, right?  Philip also doesn't get too worried that Pastor Tim might have some secret info about him provided by Paige.  He just lets it roll off his back.  Hmmm.......maybe Gabriel has seen this kind of thing happen before.  Plus, he's jumping down Gabriel's throat, so that he has to tell Philip to keep his voice down.  It would worry me more if I thought they really could get caught. lol Still, it's so risky.  I have to buy into these people.

[maczero]

Also, Maurice seems to see no problem in letting Elizabeth do what she is doing as long as he gets the right amount of money out of it. So I have to chuckle at the cheers going Maurice's way for calling out Elizabeth and showing her that she is not as slick as she thinks she is. Yay, you go, Maurice, good job :)!

I think I know why some are patting Maurice on the back.  I've noticed that some feel the show is too pro-Elizabeth.  She beats the shit out of grown men.  She's had two men (Gregory & Phillip) chasing after her despite her being fairly cold.  And hell, she literally gets away with murder (not to mention theft, lying and manipulation).  

 

It was a nice change of pace to see someone has her number even if he appears to be a scumbag.

Whoa, gotta disagree with you, sister.  I don't think Phillip has friends, not even Elizabeth, with whom he shares far more than he can with anybody.  I'm sure he likes Stan fine enough and Stan is a good guy to know, but Stan is also exactly the guy who'll notice things and end them up in the hoosegow.  Stan doesn't suspect them cuz what're the odds you just happen to move in right next to the guys you're looking for?  But that could change.  Now that Paige knows, were I Phillip, I'd find ways to make sure Stan and Paige are never in the same room again. Like ever.

I'm going with Stan is as close to a friend as Phillip has.  He's not using him as a source yet still hangs out with him.  Phillip's time has got to be at a premium.  He still has to see both Kimmie and Martha weekly, spend time with his own family and still be available for whatever odd mission that the centre asks of him.  No way could I see him going to Stan's EST meetings and whatever else Stan is into, if he didn't want to hang out with Stan on some level.

[sistermagpie]

To be fair, Elizabeth's going along with everything Philip's doing with Paige so if he's sloppy by trusting her and not worrying about Pastor Tim, so is she. And the KGB thinks she's totally fine. In fact, Gabriel's reaction to the idea that their teenage daughter knows their secret was "Good." (Though the subtext was a Montgomery Burns "Eeeeexcellent.") Even he didn't go over how they were controlling her and making sure she didn't tell anyone.

 

It's funny about Gabriel telling him to keep his voice down just as he did to Paige. That's the second time Philip almost seems to take his cues from Paige (who he complimented for staying strong) in an ep. In Born Again he used Paige's religious stuff on Kimmie and now here he's doing the thing where he talks loud to make it clear he will not be silenced and controlled.

[SlackerInc]

Well, I do think this show tries to be somewhat realistic about a lot of this- and there's nothing they could want Paige to do as a 15 year old that could possibly be of any use. It's for positions way in the future (but of course we know by that time there'd be no point). Given that reality, it's sort of hard to see how this storyline wouldn't be more likely to serve as the catalyst for Philip and Elizabeth's eventual downfall (or at least one of them), rather than Paige the Teenage Spy.

 

I don't think it's warranted to assume Russia stopped spying on the U.S. in the '90s.

 

 

Elizabeth's long con on her Northrup 'friend' changes when hubby Maurice point-blank starts naming prices and making demands. (And just like that, they are now coworkers and co-conspirators.) I'd worry more about Maurice, who I'm sure is doomed, except that we've already seen he is a freeloading, wife-beating lowlife in the past, so I can't say I'll mourn him when Elizabeth inevitably has to take him out. But the actor's phenomenal.

 

He really is.  Very intense, but not in a way that screams "actor trying to be intense".  But are we so sure Elizabeth's long con has now changed?  I thought maybe she had been angling all along (or at least for a good while now, since sussing out the home life situation) for this exact thing to happen, and that while Maurice thinks he has very cleverly gotten a level above Elizabeth, she is actually still playing a level above him.

 

I cannot imagine a Reagan speech changing the views of Pastor Tim or other liberals on any subject -- certainly nothing as fundamental to their worldview as wanting to limit nuclear weapons. While Reagan was a hero to conservative America, he was certainly not a hero to liberal America. (Full disclosure: As a 15 year old in 1984, I was a campaign volunteer for Walter Mondale.)

 

Oh, cool.  As a 15 year old, I left school early to go to a Mondale rally and shook his hand.  I was more naive about politics then, and was heartbroken when he got blown out Election Night.

The posts on this and other forums about Reagan and the '80s make me a little worried that in a hundred years, people will have an oversimplified and plain inaccurate idea of the political situation of the 1980s.  I think the narrative that has already seemed to form is that it was just an overall conservative era, meaning that even Democrats were more conservative/centrist/jingoistic than at other times in history.  This is true of the blue collar union "Reagan Democrats", but they voted for Reagan!  Hence the blowout; but Mondale still got 70% as many votes as Reagan did, and probably at least half of those were really pretty hardcore-left types.  

As someone else in the thread noted, it's easy to think "the 80s" is a long time after "the 60s", but the events we have been seeing are only a decade after the McGovern campaign, and the heyday of the Weather Underground was about as recent as Hurricane Katrina is to us today.  Jesse Jackson, a very left wing figure, won 18% of primary votes in 1984 (including my mom's), vs. 38% for Mondale and 35% for Hart.  So there was a vigorous and hardcore left in this country, a sizable one by any measure (surely far bigger than the libertarians we hear about endlessly today), but just outnumbered.  I really want to see this remembered better in histories taught about the era; and that it is already seemingly being forgotten makes me wonder about the accuracy of the history we learn about times back before anyone living today was around.

 

Just on the Stan, Oleg, Zenaida, Nina plot. I've never been convinced that Stan is telling Oleg the truth about trading Zenaida for Nina. He wants to know the truth about Zenaida and when searching the places she's been alone, like the bathroom, got him nothing more than a bruised crotch he needed a better plan. So he decided to use Oleg's feelings for Nina to his advantage. I don't really believe he is that invested in freeing Nina. If he can, well and good, but that will be a byproduct of his scheme not the aim of it.

 

Very interesting thoughts.  I thought after Oleg's confrontation with Zenaida that he was possibly playing Stan, although this has seemed to recede in likelihood since then.  It would be awesome and funny if they were trying to play each other!

 

I'm pretty sure Anton is working on something to do with the STEALTH weapons, not ARPAnet, which was the underlying framework of the Internet. He needs photos to continue his work, not code.

 

He is the one who sent them on the ARPANET mission, though--because it contained information he needed.

Edited April 10, 2015 by SlackerInc

[shura]

But are we so sure Elizabeth's long con has now changed?  I thought maybe she had been angling all along (or at least for a good while now, since sussing out the home life situation) for this exact thing to happen, and that while Maurice thinks he has very cleverly gotten a level above Elizabeth, she is actually still playing a level above him.

 

Yes, exactly. He is pretty much volunteering to let Elizabeth have what she wants -- hardly a loss for her, I would say. It's much easier for a spy to just pay for the info than to keep up some kind of con to get to it. Many successful asset recruitments were (and, I'm sure, still are) just that, letting the mark know that, if he or she decides to do it, this is how it can be done and this is how much it's going to pay. As simple as that, no tricks. Of course, they had to find a reasonably receptive mark before approaching him, and Maurice has been found to be totally receptive.

[Blakeston]

She knows who and where Anton is and may have some idea what he's working on, and even point the FBI to areas of compromised intelligence (i.e. the software Anton is using).  Nina's not going anywhere.

 

In real life, I'd assume that she'd spend the rest of her life behind bars. But on this show? I'll be stunned if she isn't sent back to the US somehow.

[ahpny]

As improbable and incredible as the whole “let’s put our fate and the success of our decades-long mission in our totally conflicted, hurt and confused 15 year-old daughter” may be, it does ratchet up the drama in interesting ways.

 

And accepting the premise they’ve set up, Paige’s reaction seems spot on and totally believable. In no way is Paige now instantly “Russian.” Indeed, she would have been taught in school, and in general (save presumably by her parents) that the Soviet Union was wrong, evil, godless and a threat to the very existence of the US. She might even have had “duck and cover” drills at school preparing of a Soviet nuclear attack. I did, and I’m just a few years older.

 

As hurt and untrusting as Paige now is, she has to know on some level that her parents do love her and care deeply about her. That part has always been true and restated by the first (and so far only) Russian words her mother has spoken to her. That’s the only card her parents have, but it’s a rather significant one.

 

Or at least Elizabeth and Philip think so. Interesting how confident they are in this regard and comparing that to how confident Philip was that Martha wouldn’t rat him out. They’re both pretty sure the love others have for them in the end will cause them to ignore espionage. Rather arrogant on one level.

4.Nina may or may not be sympathetic to the scientist she's working/observing. Is she now working with him? We saw definite glimmerings of sympathy there.

 

Ah, but that’s the best approach. Relay on the truth as much as possible to make the con as credible as possible. Nina seems to know this instinctively. She knew she could never convince him that she was just another girl sent to try and loosen him up. So she tells him some partial truths that give her some credibility and relies on real emotions that stem from real abuse by the same organs that are abusing him now. He appears a bit puzzled by someone actually telling him some truth, even if it’s incomplete. He’s probably so lonely and confused by the glimmer of truth oozing out of her that he can’t help but blurt out something useful. Nina is counting on it and I wouldn't bet against her..

[ToastnBacon]

Why do some of us seem so convinced that Paige's church and Pastor Tim would be anti-Reagan?

It is a Baptist church in Virginia for crying out loud!

Granted, it is in Fairfax County and there was that anti nuke protest, but I'd still expect that Paige is being exposed to some very conservative ideas going to that church.

Unless Pastor Tim is a total rogue Baptist pastor, he is going to be anti-abortion, for prayer in schools, and against religious persecution.

Regean's Evil Empire speech touched on all of those issues and his stance on them was in-line with evangelicals ( a category of Protestants, that includes Baptists).

That particular speech was given to the National Association of Evangelicals, and it was a very friendly audience to Reagan.

Of course, we know the writers of the show can choose to ignore all of this and go in another direction, but why did they make Paige's church a Baptist one?

[Guest]

I'm not going to bail on the show because it was at one point a favorite but I'm close.  I *hate* the Paige stuff.  It probably doesn't help that I watched Nashville before this ep and I hate the Maddie teen drama there as well, so it was just more teen hate.  It also probably doesn't help that I have a girl that age and while she's occasionally a little moody she's nowhere near the idiotic teen stereotype of the insufferable, disrespectful bitch that tv writers seem to be so in love with.   

 

I hate that Martha is just going along with the stranger in her house, too.

Quoting myself here.  I guess I have to give them credit for this part-- Martha is having the reaction I think Paige should have and vice versa.  

 

Martha's the one whose whole 'family' is a lie and should be livid and vengeful for being used, in my opinion.  But she's like, "Ok, Clark, what do I do, honey?"  

[Umbelina]

I'm not going to bail on the show because it was at one point a favorite but I'm close.  I *hate* the Paige stuff.  It probably doesn't help that I watched Nashville before this ep and I hate the Maddie teen drama there as well, so it was just more teen hate.  It also probably doesn't help that I have a girl that age and while she's occasionally a little moody she's nowhere near the idiotic teen stereotype of the insufferable, disrespectful bitch that tv writers seem to be so in love with.   

 

I hate that Martha is just going along with the stranger in her house, too.

 

I don't even care that Elizabeth enjoyed her stranger sex session but went home to Phillip for round 2, like a good wife and mother.  

 

There really aren't any stories I feel invested in-- Hans, Anton, Nina, Northrup, Gabriel...  I guess I missed Stan this episode.  I don't know but the show better turn something around or I'm out after this season.  

I'm probably not going to give up on the show, but I totally agree with the rest of this.

 

Further, I've kind of been feeling a loss here, if I'm honest.  I really, REALLY loved this show, and even tried my best to get others to watch it.  I felt it ranked up there with Breaking Bad, and Mad Men...or it was close enough that I was seriously glad to have it around.  Yay!  Another show to love.

 

Until this season.

 

It began with sloppiness, just little things that pulled me out of the moments.  I'm not going to list them, but others have pointing out non-80's things the directors didn't catch.  Yes, Mad Men, for the most part, has totally spoiled me as far as period pieces, but still, this season seems sloppier than other The American's seasons.  Elizabeth not getting the hell off the street, or ducking into a doorway and getting the wig off, zipping up the coat so the red didn't show at all, etc.  Elizabeth takes down TWO FBI guys, and when she threw one in front of the motorcycle all I could think was...Alias rip off.  More suspension of belief required, but hey!  I'll go with it.  I love this show.  

 

• Nina not being dead.  Not apparently even being tortured, perfect hair, not a mark on her.  The rescue Nina plan.  WHAT?
• Stan colluding with Oleg.  Over NINA.  Stan not bothering to report his meetings, a definite no no in his job.  WHAT?
• The KGB, fresh off a spectacular disaster recruiting a teenager, and costing them two extremely valuable agents, decides, "OK, let's to this all again!"  WHAT?
• The entire Paige storyline doesn't work for me in any way.  At all.  ESPECIALLY them leaving her alone and not even spying on her.  WHAT?
• Martha.  What a waste, this could have been such a compelling and realistic story.  This stuff really happened, has history, has layers, but all we get between Clark and Martha is "I love you." and she just falls in line?  Biggest WHAT? of all.
• The FBI not watching Stan like a hawk after his actions last year is also completely unbelievable to me.  Then again, maybe they have been, and we just don't know it yet.  I hope.

 

I feel like they took one of my favorite shows and FUBAR'd it.  So, I'm skiing on dirt, doing handsprings over the boulders in the way, and going to try my very best to enjoy it for what it is.  Way too many WHAT's? to buy into any more.  I'm not even counting the whole embedded agents doing the hands on stuff, because I was totally willing to buy into that because yeah, it's a TV show.  The rest though?  All at once?  Is pushing me over the edge.

 

Dracula is working for me though.  His mind games, and obvious worry that Philip and Elizabeth now apparently have a real marriage, caring about one another and their children more than the Soviet cause is intriguing.  Philip pushing back so hard seems like a high risk/low reward for Philip, but even that doesn't really bother me.  The show still has incredible moments, but you can't build a city on quicksand, or ski for very long on dirt.  They need to get it together and decide, are we just going with pure fantasy now, or what?

I've always thought they did not utilize Stan's ability to help them very well.  He has provided them ample opportunity, but it seems Philip ignores it.  Recall he recently shared details about the new guy with Philip.  This created a perfect opportunity to take the heat off Martha, by framing the new guy.  Plus, Philip knows how Stan is about his wife and son, yet they're never used that either.  Perhaps, Philip just wants to let Stan operate without much involvement with him.  Maybe, if the Centre doesn't order it, then he doesn't go there.   

 

There is one thing that Philip should be aware of though.  If the FBI gets too suspicious of Stan and they discover his secret meeting with the soviet guy, they may believe he is responsible for the bug in Gaad's office.  That might mean an investigation into Stan's neighbors and friends, especially Philip and Elizabeth who seem to be his only social contacts.  And regardless of their covers, I don't think they would welcome a lot of scrutiny by an FBI investigation.

 

Interesting idea.  Totally logical too.

So is Philip getting sloppy or is he losing it, as Gabrielle asked?  Philip is far more confident in Paige keeping things on the down low than most people would be. He also seems to feel he's safe with Martha being interviewed for a second time with the FBI.  He seemed so nonchalant about it.  He gave Martha a few pointers and a pep talk.  Really?  I would think there would be  some serious training so that she could pass a polygraph.  They know that's coming, right?  Philip also doesn't get too worried that Pastor Tim might have some secret info about him provided by Paige.  He just lets it roll off his back.  Hmmm.......maybe Gabrielle has seen this kind of thing happen before.  Plus, he's jumping down Gabrielle's throat, so that he has to tell Philip to keep his voice down.  It would worry me more if I thought they really could get caught. lol Still, it's so risky.  I have to buy into these people.

Exactly.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Umbelina

[DrSpaceman]

I cannot imagine a Reagan speech changing the views of Pastor Tim or other liberals on any subject -- certainly nothing as fundamental to their worldview as wanting to limit nuclear weapons. While Reagan was a hero to conservative America, he was certainly not a hero to liberal America. (Full disclosure: As a 15 year old in 1984, I was a campaign volunteer for Walter Mondale.)

 

My sense is that Pastor Tim is politically considerably to the left of Jimmy Carter, the American president most personally associated with evangelical Christianity. Reagan had strong support among most evangelicals, but it did not extend to that (admittedly small) section of the movement. For liberals, the fear was that Reagan's thinking was simplistic -- too black and white -- and, despite his gifts as a speaker, his rhetoric often seemed careless ("We begin bombing in five minutes.")

 

(To be fair, I should add that I think that Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, both gifted speakers, have also never persuaded anybody on the other side of anything. And a conservative would probably criticize them in similar terms.)

 

I can buy Pastor Tim going to Miami to protest against Reagan's speech, but I can't buy him being swayed by it.

reagan was incredibly popular among moderates and conservatives, but no, not among liberals. I have no idea really though where Pastor Tim falls on the political spectrum though, really all we know about his politics is he is a pastor in the 1980s and he is against nuclear weapons. This was not an unusual stance though among evangelicals in the 80s and did not necessarily mean that the church would be liberal or that they wouldn't be supporters of Reagan. I can recall attending Catholic Church back in the 80s and hearing sermons against nuclear proliferation. I am not sure where pastor really is on the overall generic liberal/conservative scale.

In the end though not sure that it matters where he falls on the political spectrum, I still can't see him ever being supportive of Soviet spies or any family associated with them. Having an opposing view from the current dominant political party is a far cry from being against the american government in general and supportive of the primary Cold War enemy of the government. The Soviet Union was pretty adamantly anti-religion, so I just can't see a pastor being supportive of anyone fighting against the US government to support the Soviet Union.

So no in terms of the one issue of nuclear weapons I doubt Reagan would sway him, but I am not sure how much that matters to the overall story and I don't necessarily think that means he is a hard core liberal.

If nothing else at least he has made Paige politically aware of some major issues and has convinced her to take a stand for at least what she believes in at the moment.

[SlackerInc]

Of course, we know the writers of the show can choose to ignore all of this and go in another direction, but why did they make Paige's church a Baptist one?

 

I wasn't aware that they had.  Just because they do lowercase b baptisms doesn't mean they are uppercase Baptists.  Are there recorded instances in the 1980s of Southern Baptist churches going and getting arrested chaining themselves to military facilities?  That would surprise me.

 

 

reagan was incredibly popular among moderates and conservatives, but no, not among liberals. I have no idea really though where Pastor Tim falls on the political spectrum though, really all we know about his politics is he is a pastor in the 1980s and he is against nuclear weapons. This was not an unusual stance though among evangelicals in the 80s and did not necessarily mean that the church would be liberal or that they wouldn't be supporters of Reagan. I can recall attending Catholic Church back in the 80s and hearing sermons against nuclear proliferation. I am not sure where pastor really is on the overall generic liberal/conservative scale.

 

But we saw a lot more than "nukes are bad, mmkay?".  They went and chained themselves to a military gate and several people including the pastor were arrested.  You're saying that wasn't unusual for evangelicals in the '80s?  I sure never heard about it from that quarter (who tended to be aligned with the Moral Majority, who were strong backers of Reagan).

[ToastnBacon]

I wasn't aware that they had.  Just because they do lowercase b baptisms doesn't mean they are uppercase Baptists.  Are there recorded instances in the 1980s of Southern Baptist churches going and getting arrested chaining themselves to military facilities?  That would surprise me.

 

 I'm not confusing baptisms with Baptists.

I'm pretty sure that Phillip referred to Paige as a Baptist in an earlier episode. Also, there are a few different stripes of Baptist churches in America.

Churches aligned with the Southern Baptist Convention probably weren't going out protesting at military bases; however, there are autonomous Baptist churches that probably did in the early 80s.

 

[paramitch]

Yes, it's funny that Philip seems to be point blank telling him that the problem is that he knows Gabriel doesn't care about him at all and the one thing Gabriel seems unable to do is convincingly seem to care about Philip at all. It's like everything he does is obvious manipulation--and downright cruel, actually, when he's telling him about his alleged son while pushing him to sleep with Kimmie. I'd almost be interested in seeing earlier scenes with him and Philip to see how they used to be because it was the minute he and Elizabeth started gleefully plotting about Paige that Gabriel became the enemy to Philip and his hurt over this indicates he actually may have thought Gabriel would have been in his corner. Gabriel seems to get that Philip's motivation comes from asking himself what he can do to make the world a little better for people--he knows how to work his overdeveloped sense of responsibility. But he never seems to appeal to his need to feel personally accepted--though it's always seemed like the Centre ignored that for Philip (not Elizabeth) anyway.

 

Really, Philip's an interesting parallel to Paige this season. He, too, is furious at his "parent" and feeling like he sees through all his lies at last.

 

Thank you for that entire, really insightful post. I think you're absolutely correct about the ways in which Philip's story is in some ways just as much about a wounded child as Paige's or Kimmie's. I loved your take on his relationship with Gabriel, as well, here.

 

My question: WHY does everyone seem to assume that Philip is the screwup and Elizabeth is the VIP? While Elizabeth is certainly precise and accomplished, time and again it's been Philip who was given the incredibly demanding and tough long-con assignments, and he's been superb even under almost unimaginable stress. I get that maybe the handlers pick up on the fact that Philip is not as much of a true believer as Elizabeth in some subtle way, but I also wonder if Elizabeth's influence over this hasn't remained pervasive from the years before she began to have feelings for him.

 

Something that occurred to me during the beeep scene - Elizabeth killed the older woman in the repair shop in order to get that bug planted. And this is the valuable information that was worth taking a life for, idle chit-chat. Wondering if E will find out the bug has gleaned nothing and start her down the road of questioning whether this is all worth it. We could see that Philip is also having the "is it worth it" thoughts regarding Annelise.

Great point, and very poignant to me -- I loved the "Beep beeeeeep" scene at the Rezidentura, but it becomes all the more chilling and sad when you think about the fact that a sweet grandmother died for that up-close info on the vending machine. (However, I'm betting that they come across something in all those reams of transcripts that makes it a coupe for Philip and Elizabeth in some way, regardless.)

 

Okay, maybe they're not friends by some definitions but if Philip can't have friends, even Elizabeth, I still think that Stan is Philip's version of a friend. He spends time with him without pumping him for info and occasionally even talks to him about his own problems. So while with Philip you can't ever real know everything he's thinking, and he's always going to hold stuff back and in this case look for things that will help him, I don't think he's just using the guy at all. He claimed to Elizabeth at first that he was just using him, but as Elizabeth accepted the idea he stopped claiming that to her and called them friends.

I absolutely think Stan is as close to a friend as Philip currently has, and I think that fact was both unexpected and yet welcome for Philip. I don't think he expected a friendship out of it, but I would definitely say that most of their interactions this season have been, for instance, all about simple companionship. Philip's consistently shown not to be actively seeking info from Stan (although I do think the relationship is valuable from a strategic standpoint), and this season he's actually opened up more than once about his inner life, his kids, and his marriage. 

 

He really is.  Very intense, but not in a way that screams "actor trying to be intense".  But are we so sure Elizabeth's long con has now changed?  I thought maybe she had been angling all along (or at least for a good while now, since sussing out the home life situation) for this exact thing to happen, and that while Maurice thinks he has very cleverly gotten a level above Elizabeth, she is actually still playing a level above him.

Oops, apologies, I said "changed" but I should have said "progressed." I definitely feel that Maurice just fast-tracked Lisa to exactly where Elizabeth wanted her to be.

 

Martha's the one whose whole 'family' is a lie and should be livid and vengeful for being used, in my opinion.  But she's like, "Ok, Clark, what do I do, honey?"  

I think it's a lot more complicated than this, though. I do think Martha is angry, to some degree. But more importantly, I think Martha is freaking petrified. Absolutely terrified. Because instead of serving her country and marrying a nice, if slightly odd man, she has discovered that she was committing treason with a man who is now a complete question mark (and she probably doesn't admit to herself that he sought her out and used her for that very purpose). 

 

Instead of being in love and happy for the first time in her life to this dream guy, Martha has learned that EVERYTHING was a lie, and that she has no options. If she flips on Clarke, her career is over and she may very well end up in prison. If she flips on the FBI she betrays her country and ideology. She's between a rock and a hard place. Worst of all, the man she is in love with may decide at any moment to kill her if she becomes too great a liability. She knows this.

 

This is in fact something I see beneath every Martha/Clarke scene since the reveal and it's heartbreaking to me -- Martha's fear. She is afraid of upsetting him. Afraid of asking him too much. Afraid to find out how little she actually means. Afraid to discover how willing this man might be to kill her if things don't go his way. Clarke's gentleness with her since the reveal makes this even more poignant to me. The weird thing is, half the time I forget that Clarke is Philip -- I mean, somehow, to me, he is truly this separate character. I like him with Martha, and I like their relationship and have always found it kind of sweet and goofy. Now it's in free fall and I simply appreciate how hard Philip is fighting to keep Martha relevant (i.e., alive and safe).

 

I'd add to all this how wonderful I think Alison Wright is in the role. I was surprised to realize this season how much I care about Martha, and another thing I've noticed is that they've allowed Wright to be prettier and softer as the reveal has gone on. Martha seemed kind of abrasive early on, with all these edges, and now she's so fragile (and Wright's dimples make her look like a little girl at times). This has definitely been one of this season's most successful storylines for me -- and I even found humor in staring straight at the guy's nose in the interview, too!

 

It began with sloppiness, just little things that pulled me out of the moments.  I'm not going to list them, but others have pointing out non-80's things the directors didn't catch.  Yes, Mad Men, for the most part, has totally spoiled me as far as period pieces, but still, this season seems sloppier than other The American's seasons.  Elizabeth not getting the hell off the street, or ducking into a doorway and getting the wig off, zipping up the coat so the red didn't show at all, etc.  Elizabeth takes down TWO FBI guys, and when she threw one in front of the motorcycle all I could think was...Alias rip off.  More suspension of belief required, but hey!  I'll go with it.  I love this show.  

 

• Nina not being dead.  Not apparently even being tortured, perfect hair, not a mark on her.  The rescue Nina plan.  WHAT?
• Stan colluding with Oleg.  Over NINA.  Stan not bothering to report his meetings, a definite no no in his job.  WHAT?
• The KGB, fresh off a spectacular disaster recruiting a teenager, and costing them two extremely valuable agents, decides, "OK, let's to this all again!"  WHAT?
• The entire Paige storyline doesn't work for me in any way.  At all.  ESPECIALLY them leaving her alone and not even spying on her.  WHAT?
• Martha.  What a waste, this could have been such a compelling and realistic story.  This stuff really happened, has history, has layers, but all we get between Clark and Martha is "I love you." and she just falls in line?  Biggest WHAT? of all.
• The FBI not watching Stan like a hawk after his actions last year is also completely unbelievable to me.  Then again, maybe they have been, and we just don't know it yet.  I hope.

 

I feel like they took one of my favorite shows and FUBAR'd it.  So, I'm skiing on dirt, doing handsprings over the boulders in the way, and going to try my very best to enjoy it for what it is.

 

• Ever since the first episode, the producers have been clear that they want to "imply" the Eighties versus recreate them mercilessly -- it's deliberate so that the show feels current/relevant and dated at the same time, and I think it works. 
• It's been established that P & E's wigs don't just rip off. Elizabeth had seconds before she was accosted -- she changed her clothing as quickly as possible, so I wasn't completely pulled out of the show. Same with her fighting the two agents -- Elizabeth has been shown to be an incredibly proficient fighter, so I bought it (especially since she didn't escape without serious consequences)
• To a degree, I'm OK with Stan/Oleg thus far, because I believe that Nina is Stan's Achilles Heel. He's not willing to betray his country for her, but I can believe he'd explore other options to save her.
• Why would Nina be dead? In fact, why would they waste a valuable asset? I've actually assumed this entire season's storyline is simply a series of tests for Nina. I think she's formidable and fascinating and I think/suspect the higher-ups recognize that too.
• I love Martha and her plotline this season, so disagree on that one.
• Why would the FBI be tailing/monitoring Stan? He's an agent in good standing. Where Nina's concerned, they know very little about his actual feelings or actions.
• It's interesting, but on the teenager recruitment angle, part of me actually wonders if the KGB didn't look at what happened last season and go, "Damn, he could have been something special. We should have handled that better."

 

And we can totally agree to disagree--just in case the debate helps... But to me, most of what you bring up has felt plausible to me, and definitely not show-breaking. I think the show's still very strong, and that most of its plotlines are thoroughly engaging me even if Paige's isn't (I'm with you on that one). In the meantime, I will probably always find Philip, Elizabeth, Stan, Nina, Gabriel, Granny, Gaad and Martha fascinating.

[RedHawk]

Philip's quick "Yes, we are" response insisting that Stan is his friend was perfect to me. Maybe it even surprised Philip inside to feel that surge of sudden loyalty, perhaps even affection, and then realization thst YES, he cares about Stan Beeman, and they are indeed friends.

And also, just underneath, that edge of frustration in his voice. He could have gone on to say, well, see, it's complicated, Paige.

Stan is totally comfortable with the Jenningses. He helps himself to beer from the fridge, he shows up obviously kinda hoping he'll get invited to dinner because it's quietly acknowledged that he's lonely, he takes interest in the kids' lives. Geez, Philip hosted Stan's date night! And none of that because Philip is thinking " keep your enemies close". In the beginning, when they greeted the Beemans with a plate of brownies, yes, totally snooping to find info on the new neighbors. Now he's basically Uncle Stan.

My favorite funny moment in the show was when Elizabeth asked who would take the kids if something happened to them and Philip deadpanned, "The Beemans."

Edited April 11, 2015 by RedHawk

[DrSpaceman]

I wasn't aware that they had.  Just because they do lowercase b baptisms doesn't mean they are uppercase Baptists.  Are there recorded instances in the 1980s of Southern Baptist churches going and getting arrested chaining themselves to military facilities?  That would surprise me.

 

 

 

But we saw a lot more than "nukes are bad, mmkay?".  They went and chained themselves to a military gate and several people including the pastor were arrested.  You're saying that wasn't unusual for evangelicals in the '80s?  I sure never heard about it from that quarter (who tended to be aligned with the Moral Majority, who were strong backers of Reagan).

I am saying that the social stances of the christian church on domestic issues that make many of them vote republican don't always match up with the republican stance on military issues, which at times are more towards the peaceful side and anti-militarism, whether that be via nuclear weapons or military build up.

The exception is any stance on Israel, they tend to be very pro-Israel.

I just don't think we can extrapolate all of Pastor Tim's political views from one issue. Plus as I stated I don't think it matters, no matter how much he might disagree with Reagan he is not going to be pro-Soviet Union, a state that was against all religion and promoted atheism.

[Guest]

• Ever since the first episode, the producers have been clear that they want to "imply" the Eighties versus recreate them mercilessly -- it's deliberate so that the show feels current/relevant and dated at the same time, and I think it works. 

In podcasts the showrunners have said the opposite-- that they go to great pains to get the details all correct as far as what actually existed at the story date.  They say they won't even use the perfect song or idea if it came out a few months later.  I don't know how good a job they do but that's what they've said is their aim.  They said they know Alan Sepinwall will eviscerate them in the press if they get anything wrong so it keeps them honest.  

[sistermagpie]

I'm pretty sure that Phillip referred to Paige as a Baptist in an earlier episode. Also, there are a few different stripes of Baptist churches in America.

 

 

I don't think so. In fact, he even says to Tim that he didn't know his church did baptisms--you'd think he would assume that if they were Baptists.

 

It's true we don't know all of Pastor Tim's views on all politics--and as with anyone he might even be very liberal with weird, seemingly incongruous conservative positions here and there (especially conservative to 2015 eyes). What we know is that he's anti-Apartheid and encouraging the kids to ask Reagan to change his stance on that, anti-Nukes, anti-war in general. He's a 60s style activist, though not a radical one. Is he anti-abortion and for prayer in schools? No idea. I don't know how progressive by my standards your average groovy 70s pastor was, to be honest!

 

My question: WHY does everyone seem to assume that Philip is the screwup and Elizabeth is the VIP? While Elizabeth is certainly precise and accomplished, time and again it's been Philip who was given the incredibly demanding and tough long-con assignments, and he's been superb even under almost unimaginable stress. I get that maybe the handlers pick up on the fact that Philip is not as much of a true believer as Elizabeth in some subtle way, but I also wonder if Elizabeth's influence over this hasn't remained pervasive from the years before she began to have feelings for him.

 

 

This is a mystery for the ages because yes, as good as Elizabeth is, Philip seems like the platinum spy to me. As somebody on the other side of the war, I like having Philip on the other side because of his judgment. So why does the KGB seem to view him with suspicion by default? Is there some explanation in his backstory? Is it just a case of the most natural spies often freaking out their own handlers? I think that was common--it's like if the person is that much of a chameleon how do you know they're really on your side?

 

Or is it--and this could be very true as well--that Elizabeth really did poison that well relentlessly and it can't go back? Gabriel seems like somebody to make his own decisions so he wouldn't just go by what she said, but he might still have been effected by it. And why is Elizabeth seen as such a star? I guess it makes sense the KGB would appreciate somebody whose dominating quality is their relentless loyalty to the cause--but those people can be dangerous too if you let them down.

 

I don't know what there could be in Philip's mysterious past that would explain it but it would give them/him a reason for keeping it secret. When Claudia was darkly hinting about the Centre "losing" her in the first season that seemed to go back to Philip as well. And yet they would never choose someone as an Illegal they didn't trust was super patriotic (and Philip basically is, despite dreaming of retiring into Philip Jennings' life for real). So if they really distrusted him he wouldn't/shouldn't be there. And they don't seem to make much effort to please him either.

 

This is in fact something I see beneath every Martha/Clarke scene since the reveal and it's heartbreaking to me -- Martha's fear. She is afraid of upsetting him. Afraid of asking him too much. Afraid to find out how little she actually means. Afraid to discover how willing this man might be to kill her if things don't go his way. Clarke's gentleness with her since the reveal makes this even more poignant to me.

 

 

I love this. Especially Clark trying to be gentle--it's such a weird dynamic. And so Philip, who's almost always trying to project this air of not being threatening because when he does look threatening it almost looks like he's relaxed into it. Like rather than being somebody who gets angry and their face tenses into something a bit scary, you sometimes get the feeling this is the mask coming off.

 

In podcasts the showrunners have said the opposite-- that they go to great pains to get the details all correct as far as what actually existed at the story date.

 

 

I think the poster more meant that the show isn't trying to showcase the 80s, not that they were intentionally sloppy about the details. It's like I remember the director of LA Confidential (one of my favorites!) saying about that movie--they do all this period work and then shove it all into the background and refuse to focus on it.

Edited April 11, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Milburn Stone]

Now that Paige knows, were I Phillip, I'd find ways to make sure Stan and Paige are never in the same room again. Like ever.

 

I see as much danger for Stan as for Philip in Paige's newfound knowledge.

 

In those kitchen scenes in which we see Stan through Paige's eyes, here is the scenario I began to dread (because I like Stan): "Hmmm," Paige contemplates, "This FBI guy is really good friends with my parents. My parents who are Russian spies. OMG, he is one of them! Stan Beeman is a mole!"

 

Somehow (and this is pure speculation, I don't know anything), this misunderstanding by Paige is going to turn tragic for Stan, when she says the wrong thing to someone, and it combines with Tappett's investigation into Gadd's pen and then somehow with Stan's secret meetings with Oleg coming to light. Paige's misreading of the kitchen scene (if I'm right about what was going on in her mind) will be the key to sending Stan away for a long time.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Milburn Stone