S03.E18: Public Enemy

[paigow]

Ray still doesn't annoy me but he deserves better than being in the middle of the Olicity angst. I like his adorkable personality, but that's mostly because I like Routh.

He cannot hide his inner Clark Kent.

[tv echo]

One part isn't clear to me.  Quentin had arrest warrants issued for the Arrow's four associates as well.  Don't those associates have to be identified in those warrants?  Have Diggle, Felicity, Roy and Laurel been outed as well?  And if so, wouldn't Laurel finally be disbarred or at least fired from the D.A.'s office?

Edited April 3, 2015 by tv echo

[twoods]

One part isn't clear to me. Quentin had arrest warrants issued for the Arrow's four associates as well. Don't those associates have to be identified in those warrants? Have Diggle, Felicity, Roy and Laurel been outed as well? And if so, wouldn't Laurel finally be disbarred or at least fired from the D.A.'s office?

I think part of the deal that Oliver made for his arrest was that his associates get full immunity. Lance is just a vengeful ass right now- nothing he seems to do makes sense. He knows Oliver wouldn't kill all these people, yet he doesn't care.

[kismet]

I also think this manhunt was more about taking the Arrow/OQ down for what happened to his daughter more so than the murders. I think if he was trying to investigate the murders, he would have listened to his daughter, Ray and possibly even Oliver. QL is in revenge, anger & hurt mode so he is not thinking clearly. I do not think he wants to take down OQ's associates because its not about them. So he'll issue warrants for their alter egos, but not their actual identities (even though he knew all of them, with exception of Diggle I think). Plus he also has to consider his role in the previous crimes, he could be considered an accessory or at least linked to them so he's not gonna start a big hunt to take down the associates because it might be his undoing. But QL, I think at the end of the day is a good guy. I think he is hurting & lashing out against Arrow because of that hurt. And I think his personality is prone to deflect blame & responsibility. So even though it was Sara's choice & decision to not only get on the gambit & rejoin the LoA, QL will somehow always place a portion of that blame on OQ. So when he found out that Arrow & OQ were the same person, I think it just threw him over the edge even though he had a hunch in S1 & its pretty logical conclusion - he just couldn't handle it. QL tends to let his emotions cloud his judgment, which is not new this season. So as much as I miss S2 QL, I was not surprised to see this angry QL rear his head again. Also

in the sizzle reel, he is trying to help Roy. So I think that he is trying to be the good guy.

So I think its only a matter of time, before QL reevaluates the situation and somehow ends up back on Team Arrow's side. I do wonder if his relationship with OQ will ever be repaired though. I did love their interactions and felt that QL could have been a good paternal influence. But I do love how QL always calls him on his negative attributes as well, that van scene was on the money & priceless. I also wonder about QL's career, this was a very major move taking the arrow down. I'm not sure he'll be able to recover from it if the charges/accusation don't stick. And to accuse OQ again, if he doesn't get some hard evidence on him being part of the Arrow case than his career might be toast.

[marketdoctor]

 

He cannot hide his inner Clark Kent.

 

I'm impressed with how BR can take a LOT of pieces from other stories (billionaire genius inventor with not only a powered armor suit, but a problem with a vital organ that only his tech can solve) and still make it his own.  I'd have rather seen this story arc develop on The Flash, where powers are more common, but I'm glad he lightens things.  When a brain clot is your comic relief, your show is probably too dark.

 

 

I also wonder about QL's career, this was a very major move taking the arrow down. I'm not sure he'll be able to recover from it if the charges/accusation don't stick. And to accuse OQ again, if he doesn't get some hard evidence on him being part of the Arrow case than his career might be toast.

 

At a minimum, there's the "double jeapordy" problem, though that's not an issue for new crimes (any murders, etc. The Arrow committed since the last trial.)

That said, secret identities are not the DCTV strong suit.

[Starfish35]

One of the reviews that was posted this morning reminded me of something that I meant to comment on but forgot about. What exactly was was the point of Mei? Did they really just create a twin sister for Shado and bring Celina Jade back just to set up that line about truth? Because that's really random.

Or is this supposed to be setting up something else later on?

Edited April 3, 2015 by Starfish35

[Gwen-Stacys]

Maybe I'm missing something but...I don't see what the big deal is about what Laurel said to Quentin about him only being mad at the Arrow because he was part of the cover up over Sarah's death...She didn't exactly lie. And she didn't exonerate herself of the blame either. She knows full well (and it has been told that she knows because these writers don't know how to show worth a ghat-damn) that he's mad at her for lying to him (Hypocritical....given that he kept Sara being alive a secret from Laurel just last season....because he was worried how it would affect her sobriety.) But, in that moment, she was discussing the intensity of her father's hatred of the Arrow...and calling him out on the reason behind it. Seeing as how Lance and Arrow were buddy buddy before....where did she lie?
 

Was it just me, or was the cutting in the scene for Team Arrow vs the Leauge in the beginning of the episode kind of awkward? (And how are Ollie/Laurel/Roy able to take out League members so easily?) Idk, this whole Ra's wanting Ollie to take over the League SL is making them look...very incompetent.
AND OMG CAN OLIVER LEARN HOW TO PRONOUNCE RA'S CORRECTLY?!?!?! Just once! I'm sorry....it bugs me every episode

[Carrie Ann]

I thought it seemed like QL did NOT identify Laurel as an accomplice (or at least, was not intending to do so), which seems hypocritical at best.

[Starfish35]

I think the big deal is that Oliver only kept Sara's death from Quentin because Laurel asked him to, and Laurel, to the best of our knowledge, has never yet confessed that to her father. Quentin is blaming Oliver for something that Laurel is responsible for. And Oliver is taking the blame for it, even though it was not his fault, just like he took the blame for Shado's death, even though that too was not his fault.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Starfish35

[kismet]

One of the reviews that was posted this morning reminded me of something that I meant to comment on but forgot about. What exactly was was the point of Mei? Did they really just create a twin sister for Shado and bring Celina Jade back just to set up that line about truth? Because that's really random.

Or is this supposed to be setting up something else later on?

I think its being set up for something later. But I also have a tendency to believe in fate, conspiracies and nothing major happens on shows like Arrow without some reason. I watch too many spy/mystery based shows and when characters linked to other characters show up there is an ulterior purpose to their role. That being said, I have some theories about what might happen with her. If her whole point was to bring home the message about how powerful the truth is, they could have given her lines to another character. It just seemed too intentional to get her back to film a little over 1 episode. They brought her back for a purpose, but I wonder if it will be more of s4 storyline. But this is all speculation & conjecture on my part.

[AyChihuahua]

No double jeopardy re Oliver being the Arrow. The thing in S1 didn't actually go to trial. At a minimum a jury has to be seated for jeopardy to attach.

Edited April 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Gwen-Stacys]

I think the big deal is that Oliver only kept Sara's death from Quentin because Laurel asked him to, and Laurel, to the best of our knowledge, has never yet confessed that to her father. Quentin is blaming Oliver for something that Laurel is responsible for. And Oliver is taking the blame for it, even though it was not his fault, just like he took the blame for Shado's death, even though that too was not his fault.

 

So? She still spoke the truth: Quentin only turned on TA because he found out he knew Sara was dead and didn't immediatly come to him and tell him. And I doubt he'd care even if Laurel told him that she'd asked Oliver not to tell him....Oliver does a lot of things for the people he cares about regardless of what they want...If Oliver wanted to go against Laurel and tell Quentin, he would have. That's all but cannon fact.

 

Quentin just wants someone to be mad at and he chose TA; that was Laurel's point.

[apinknightmare]

I'm amused by the fact that Quentin is focusing most of his rage on TA, not because he just wants someone to be mad at - he probably wouldn't care who wanted to keep what secret. But not only did Laurel keep it from him (never mind the fact that she repeatedly lied to him when he asked her if she'd heard from Sara - I don't recall him asking anyone on TA where she was, apart from Felicity, when he asked if she could get in touch with Sara), but she intentionally dressed up as Sara to fool him, which he's got to know if he's got any kind of curiosity at all, considering his very first question after finding out that Sara died should've been, "When?" Unless Laurel lied to him about that, too. 

 

This is yet another reason why that whole secret-keeping storyline was stupid as hell, because it served no real purpose other than to get Quentin to this point of anger, when they could've had Oliver/Team Arrow/Laurel "betray" him in an actual relevant way that would've made the way things unfolded a little less stupid IMO.

Edited April 3, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

She's lying by omission. Not telling Quentin they only kept it from because she told them to leaves out a crucial fact that changes the whole story. It's like I tell you your dog was hit by a car, but I don't tell you it was hit by me in my car. That's what she's doing.

Edited April 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Chaser]

The secret keeping sucked. No favors were given on that storyline.

 

Imagine if Laurel had told her Father the truth. They could have had him and his police resources involved in the investigation. He could have found out about the Arrow and became a strong ally against Ra's. Of course, that would have taken away from Laurel's need to beat people up because she didn't have anyone to talk too. 

[apinknightmare]

I mean, I don't mind Quentin turning on Oliver, really. But the reasoning for it here is weak because of Laurel's major involvement in the deception. It would've been better if they had him find out that Sara died because Malcolm wanted him to fight Ra's to forgive his blood debt. It's still flimsy, and yeah, it would leave Thea vulnerable to him too, but then I'd get the renewed anger at Oliver for taking Sara away on the Gambit and everything that came after. 

 

This is just stupid.

Edited April 3, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

I mind it, quite a bit. It's fine that he doesn't want to partner with Arrow anymore. But he's blaming Oliver for stuff that was not at all Oliver's fault, and that Oliver risked his life to try to stop. Not to mention Laurel would have been dead in the second episode of the series if not for Oliver. Oh, and Oliver "made [Quentin] an accomplice"? Bullcrap. Nobody held a gun to Quentin's head.

It's fine for him to be mad, sure, but not either to this extent or in such a stupid way. I guess the moronic hot potato of the season has been passed to him, but everyone has been so frigging stupid this season, I just can't stand it.

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I mean...it seems to me like they're going for irrational anger over losing Sara, so that's why in theory it doesn't bother me. It's just the execution of it that bugs, because I think there are better ways of connecting the dots, and for planting a seed that could snowball after the Evil!Arrows come to town and such. To me it would've been better if Quentin realized that the Evil!Arrows were Evil! but decided to obliterate the Arrow because a) his life went to shit the moment Sara left to get on the Gambit (which was Sara's decision, and not everything that came after was Oliver's fault, but it's that whole, "If I could just change this ONE thing, everything else would be okay mentality) b) Malcolm killed Sara to get at Oliver to get to Ra's, and c) this dude is wreaking havoc on his city even when he's not the one doing it (again, not his fault, but in irrational anger, I could see Quentin getting pissed about this stuff).

 

It would've made for somewhat "good" irrational, fiery anger that could believably lead to Quentin wanting him arrested. But this is really stupid.

Edited April 3, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Oscirus]

Quentin just saw with his own eyes someone that looked like the arrow kill the mayor and the da(?) combine that with the fact that his own daughter has been lying to him for a while and learning that Oliver's keeping even more secrets from him about his other daughter and it's easy to see why he's mad at Oliver.

 

He wasn't totally off base about Oliver bringing that stuff back with him. Oliver did bring Slade with him and the only reason that the league is acting a fool and killing so many people is because Oliver being worried about his sister's mental state decided to save Malcolm's life, twice.

[statsgirl]

But Quentin's seen that there has been a copy cat Arrow before, not to mention a copycat Count.  In fact, he was the one pushing the idea of a copycat archer in s1 when his Chief didn't want it. So without his anger at the Arrow over Sara, he would probably be open to the idea of a copycat.

 

I now hate Quentin again - and what's with the police brutality (hitting a bound prisoner)?  I think a lot of Quentin's vendetta against Oliver is just displaced anger because he can't fully vent his anger at his beloved daughters.  Sara was the one who should've told him about her time on Lian Yu, but she's dead.  Laurel is the one who should've told him that Sara was dead, but Laurel is still his daughter.  He may be angry with her right now, but he still loves her and isn't going to hurt her or put her in prison.

I really like that idea, it makes organic sense. But I'm afraid that it's putting more thought into it than the writers do.

 

One of the reviews that was posted this morning reminded me of something that I meant to comment on but forgot about. What exactly was was the point of Mei? Did they really just create a twin sister for Shado and bring Celina Jade back just to set up that line about truth? Because that's really random.

 

Maybe they wanted Celina Jade back and since they've had enough flack for bringing Malcolm and Slade back from the dead, they thought this was a good way.

 

The Dr. Who comment -- I wonder if that line was put in because EBR is a Dr. Who fan herself. A year of so ago an interviewer asked cast members if they were on a desert island, what they would most like to have washed up on shore and EBR said "the TARDIS".

 

Quentin just wants someone to be mad at and he chose TA; that was Laurel's point.

But she didn't add "I'm the one you should be mad at.  They didn't tell you because I asked them not to."  She's letting TA take the hit for her decision and it's not only hurting them, it's hurting Quentin, and not just because he refused Felicity's phone call and the police station got shot up.  Quentin feels betrayed not just by the Arrow but by Team Arrow, and without Dinah and Laurel, he feels like he has no one now, he's entirely alone.  Laurel taking her blame on herself might make he feel he wasn't abandoned by everyone, including "the closest thing to a partner [he's] got."

 

This is a problem with Laurel's ascension to Black Canary that I don't think the writers get -- that she's not a hero yet not because she can't fight as well as the others but because she's got more flaws than them.  Having her take the responsibility that is her would go a long way towards that superhero the producers want so badly.

Edited April 3, 2015 by statsgirl

[Starfish35]

He admitted in his argument with Laurel that there are copycats out there. He knows that Felicity works with the Arrow, so why would he take a shot at her? The whole thing comes off to me as him having a giant temper tantrum. And I admit in that scene in the van, it crossed my mind that if this was a different kind of show, I would be thinking he was possessed, because there was such a deliberate cruelty in the things he was throwing at Oliver.

[statsgirl]

I think we all have the potential for deliberate cruelty, especially towards someone we trusted and who has let us down. We lash out, hoping to find that they care enough for us to love us even through our anger.  I think over the two seasons, Quentin had come to see the Arrow if not as his friend then as someone he could trust and rely on. 

 

Now he has nobody, and no place to put his anger other than in a manhurt for the Arrow.  Before he had his job and hunting for the Dollmaker, and then he had the bottle, but through it he had Laurel. Now he doesn't have her any more, Dinah is gone and Hilton (thanks for the reminder, Quentin) is dead -- all he has is his anger.

 

That makes it even worse how Laurel is handling this now but ever since Sara died, it's always been about her (she couldn't bear to lose her father) and not about him.

 

That's the difference between Laurel and Oliver -- Oliver takes the blame for everything, even what he didn't do (as did Roy in this episode) and Laurel doesn't take enough blame for what she herself does.

Edited April 3, 2015 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

"Now he has nobody, and no place to put his anger other than in a manhurt for the Arrow. Before he had his job and hunting for the Dollmaker, and then he had the bottle, but through it he had Laurel. Now he doesn't have her any more, Dinah is gone and Hilton (thanks for the reminder, Quentin) is dead -- all he has is his anger."

Then he should (1) find a good psychiatrist; (2) take a Xanax; and (3) resign, because anyone with so little control of his emotions should not be in a position of authority.

[AES13]

What I can't get over is Laurel taking a running leap off the building.  Maybe I'm wrong but it certainly looked to me like she didn't have a rappel line and only avoided certain death because Oliver swung over to pick her up.  Am I supposed to think that she just panicked, or was she really willing to die to get away from the police?

[apinknightmare]

What I can't get over is Laurel taking a running leap off the building.  Maybe I'm wrong but it certainly looked to me like she didn't have a rappel line and only avoided certain death because Oliver swung over to pick her up.  Am I supposed to think that she just panicked, or was she really willing to die to get away from the police?

 

She didn't have a line, and I think you're to believe that she trusted Oliver enough to catch her. Which...I mean, that's great but he would've dislocated whatever it was of hers that he grabbed. Leg, I guess? 

[tv echo]

I think they wanted to shoot a cool stunt.  The three of them jump off the building.  Roy and Oliver shoot rappelling line arrows back up to attach to the building, and Oliver swings over to catch Laurel.  At the same time, it shows how brave and fearless Laurel is and how much she trusts Oliver to save her.

[Chaser]

I think I was supposed to be impressed by that scene, but I really wasn't. From a stunt prespective, it was cool but I thought it came off looking a little stupid.

 

Oliver must have known she had nothing to go over the ledge with and instead of grabing her before he jumped, he and Roy were like "Peace!". And then half way down its like he just realized she was there. It reminded me of when she got her ass kicked and he just ran right by her until she yelled at him. Oliver must be in a constant state of  "You're still here?"

[Starfish35]

Oliver must be in a constant state of  "You're still here?"

ROFL I love it.

[lexicon]

I think I was supposed to be impressed by that scene, but I really wasn't. From a stunt prespective, it was cool but I thought it came off looking a little stupid.

 

Oliver must have known she had nothing to go over the ledge with and instead of grabing her before he jumped, he and Roy were like "Peace!". And then half way down its like he just realized she was there. It reminded me of when she got her ass kicked and he just ran right by her until she yelled at him. Oliver must be in a constant state of  "You're still here?"

 

Aren't we all at this point? What exactly is she bringing to the team when she goes out on the field? Sigh...

[BkWurm1]

Donna's psychic powers not only allow her to sense Felicity being in love with Oliver, but Oliver being in love with Felicity as well. Otherwise, with Felicity saying he is unavailable, why would she say that "her daughter has two amazing men"? Let's ignore the fact that Oliver has removed himself from the equation, so the only choice Felicity can make is really between kidding herself and Ray, or being alone.

 

 

Of course I just couldn't resist going back and looking at the scene when Donna met Oliver.  I've never seen Oliver looks so giddy.  I would have absolutely no problem believing she knew Oliver was in love with her daughter. 

 

It does seem odd to have Mama Smoak show up that quickly because she "heard what happened" only to have her state she didn't watch the news.

 

 

I assume the watch Ray gave her was programmed to ping whenever his name was mentioned by the media.  This is one of those kidding / not kidding moments where as I wrote something in jest it suddenly seemed exactly like what must have happened. 

 

 

Finally, as much as my shipper-heart liked the idea that Mama "knew it in five seconds," the text does not support it, not from the one Mama and Oliver scene.  I suppose you could say she was quick to jump and say Oliver wasn't a friend, but Donna cites Felicity's "lighting up" as the clue, not her verbal slip.

 

I didn't see it at first either but there is a small moment when Oliver is saying how nice it was to meet DS and is about ready to walk away and he glances over at Felicity and boom, she has the goofy grin and heart eyes as she watches him walk away and Mamma Smoak is watching. 

 

I can accept that between the way Oliver got real excited to meet Felicity's mom and Felicity's comment about Oliver not a friend, Donna could have figured out these two were in love.  Donna doesn't actually say that she saw Felicity light up like a Xmas tree in the first five seconds, she only offers it as further support of how she knew and though it's a brief moment, there is a moment where Felicity loses the frowny face and just looks twitterpatted. 

 

I know I saw a Gif out there of the moment somewhere. 

 

It really was sloppy writing.  If Ray had such a dangerous clot, why wasn't he immobilized instead of chatting to his visitors?  Why was he allowed visitors?

 

When my mother had a mass of blood clots in her lungs, they considered her immobilized by not letting her get up.  She was not allowed out of bed at all for a few days but there were no restrictions on visitation. 

 

His blood clot actually rang pretty true to me.  Because of his fresh wound he'd be at risk of bleeding out if they went crazy with the blood thinners and even if they did, it wouldn't make the clot in his brain vanish instantly.  They said for whatever reason they couldn't operate and could only wait for him to get stronger, banking on the future surgery (if in the meantime the clot didn't move)  I guess I assumed they were feeling confident that the clot WOULD move if they thinned his blood which Is real risk of the treatment.  Right now the clot was sitting in a place where it wasn't causing symptoms but it had the potential to dislodge and that is exactly why blood clots are so lethal. 

 

I had a friend, 27 years old, healthy, who broke his ankle, went in, got the cast, came home, took a nap and died in his sleep from a blood clot.  Then there's my mother who has been hospitalized three times for massive clots in her lungs only to be fine each time (and a fourth time when she was feeling symptoms, they just gave her a series of shots to give herself at home - and FINALLY figured out they should leave the poor woman on her blood thinner to which she has done fine on since) 

 

Blood clots make a fantastic "he looks fine but could drop dead any moment disease" IMO. Silent killers.   

 

I had bigger issues with how he just seemed a little weak after having an arrow plunged into and then removed back out of his chest. That seemed like the kind of wound were they stick tubes in you to drain crap at the very least.  Maybe even stick you on a ventilator since wouldn't it have hit his lung?  But no, he's a little loopy from the meds and on some oxygen but otherwise they are barely monitoring him.     

Edited April 4, 2015 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

Quentin has now become a cartoon character.  It's ridiculous.  Some random guy kidnaps him and tells him that Oliver Queen is the bad guy and Lance is all out for vengeance...because random guy also told him his daughter (whom he thought was dead) wasn't for a bit (which he already knew) and Oliver knew it (at the time) and didn't tell him. 

 

Oh hey, BTW, this random guy JUST KIDNAPPED YOU and has a bunch of guys with arrows and guns.  But sure, totally believe him over your own daughter.  You know, the one who isn't dead.  Good call, Sergeant/Captain/Lieutenant/ whatever you are this week that allows you to command the city's police force.

I had a different reaction to what Quentin was doing. I think he was very clear that he knew there were outside forces causing the deaths and the problems but he still ultimately rested blame on the Arrow's shoulders with the idea if there was no Arrow out there, there would be no copy cat killers. 

 

Rather than cartoonish, I found him frighteningly real in his laser focus.  His anger about Sara is almost secondary.  He was already on this path before Ra's wanted to gossip, but in forcing the issue of who the Arrow is, he became that much more determined to get him.  It's what he wanted to do before the Mayor was shot and now the Mayor is not there to hold him back.  Whether he believes the Arrow actually killed the Mayor was beside the point (and no, I don't think he thought the Arrow did it, but he still held him responsible for bringing the LoA to town.)

 

Stopping the Arrow is IMO his step one in cleaning up the mess he let happen because he let himself believe in the Arrow.  Everything else comes after, but he has to take out the Arrow for fear that if he doesn't dig out the root of all the problems, more will spring forth. 

 

The Quentin and Oliver relationship is interesting. Quentin grew to have respect for the Arrow and what he was doing, but Oliver Queen is a different story. I think that Quentin knew deep down that Oliver was the Arrow, but he never wanted to face that because Quentin never forgave Oliver for what happened to Sara. He buried it and didn't dwell on it but when faced with Oliver and the lies of Sara's death it came roaring back. A part of Quentin will always see that Oliver as the boy before the island.

Quentin apologized to Oliver for blaming him about Sara's death during her "came back from the dead" party, so I think he had reconciled with who Oliver Queen was in the past vs who he was in the present and I'm rather certain that part of that came from him knowing but keeping up the pretense of deniability over who the Arrow was.  There's no way you can convince me that Lance went from Sara's party to the crime scene and didn't recognize that it was Oliver there with Sara.  So what's going on now has to be something more than just his old anger resurfacing, IMO. 

 

I think it's more than grief Lance is wrestling with, it's his guilt in his own culpability in supporting the Arrow that is the main driving force behind his anger.   But if he can rest the ultimate responsibility of everything on the Arrow, including his own support and dare I say it, friendship, if he can put that on the Arrow, then Quentin can stop twice blaming himself for Sara's death. 

 

Deep down, Quentin blames himself for Sara's death because maybe if he'd stuck to his fundamental beliefs about what he'd known as right and wrong, Sara might still be alive.  His relentlessness comes from all the hurt and guilt and anger of a father directed outward.  Cause even before Oliver lured Sara onto the boat, Quentin must feel he'd failed as a father because Sara let herself be lured.

 

He's been living in the grey right along with Sara and now she's dead and all he can see it the black and white.  And if he'd stuck to the black and white - that the Arrow was bad - that the life of the Vigilante was bad, maybe Sara wouldn't have stayed living in the grey and maybe she wouldn't be dead.  

 

( I really wish Laurel had got around to explaining WHY Sara was dead cause then he'd know it was all just fucked up LoA business, but he doesn't, he thinks she died because she was out there helping people like Oliver had inspired people to do)

The hilarious part is Quentin is just plain lucky Oliver and Roy are so goddamn noble. The Arrow's [and Felicity's] phone records, not to mention all of the police files he handed the Arrow, prove Lance is as much an accessory to the vigilantes as the other team members.

Even before he got a name, Quentin was on a mission, one he believes to be a kind of cleansing for the city.  Do any of us think Quentin would hesitate in going after the Arrow even if he too faced charges?  Righteous indignation drove his actions and IMO he'd let nothing get in the way of in his pursuit of the Arrow.  (Though everyone else he was allowing astonishing wiggle room)

 

That about sums it up. When Quentin was ranting at Oliver for making him his accomplice ... Last I checked Oliver doesn't have mind control powers, you made yourself his accomplice Q, so did your daughters and everyone else.

I think this is partly why QL is so furious.  He's not merely upset at Oliver or the Arrow, he feels like by supporting and believing in the Arrow he betrayed his core beliefs and he's looking back and sees his growing understanding and reliance on the Arrow as him being lured over to the dark side, seduced with quick fixes that came outside of the law. A way of doing things that the Arrow still believes is justified, a belief Quentin now views as sacrilege. But the truth that Quentin faces is he let himself be seduced because he wanted to believe in what the Arrow was "selling".  He saw the results.  He counted the lives saved.  He wasn't tricked.  He wasn't manipulated.  He made a reasoned choice.    

 

But Sara is dead. 

 

I think Quentin had a kind of non verbalized pact with the Arrow, one that was likely strictly subconscious, and it revolved around Sara's return and Sara's continued safety.  She was living in the same world as the Arrow, even if they weren't joined at the hip, the Arrow represented Sara's belief system and when Quentin found out Sara was dead and that the man he'd put his trust in on many levels had lied to him about something so very fundamental, he felt betrayed, disillusioned  and responsible for ever subscribing to such folly in the first place. 

 

 I do think he blames Oliver for winning him and his daughters and the rest of his associates over to the dark side.  Close up, the Arrow was the right choice, but now Quentin is seeing the big picture (or thinks he is)  He feels foolish for not seeing the forest for the trees and the anger directed at Oliver and the Arrow is the same anger that Quentin is directing at himself for letting himself be so blind.  I think that is where this manic, crusade feel comes from.   He's a sinner who's seen the light and is bent on repenting his ways, so fervent in his belief that he can no longer see the good that swayed his opinion about the Arrow the first time around.      

 

I think this also explains why he was so lax about using the Arrow's known associates against him (or against themselves)  He wants to save them from the Arrow as well. 

 

My heart actually broke during the Oliver/Quentin scene at the end. I will say that that was one of the most powerful scenes this season has had yet. Quentin's anger, his words being what Oliver has probably been thinking about himself, the realization that he wasn't wrong, all of it was just breaking my heart for both of them. I think that's the only thing that saved this whole manhunt plot for me. SA and PB were breaking my heart,

 

 

Before he had a definite name to go with the title, his pursuit of the Arrow was already personal.  It was already fueled by disillusionment, betrayal, and guilt.  I actually don't think grief is directly fueling it right now.  It's there underneath but I'd say right now he's not ready to grieve and is instead clinging to his anger and making impossible bargains with the universe, like if he atones for his past support of the Arrow, maybe somehow Sara won't be gone. 

 

Having the name that confirmed all the suspicions he never wanted to face at a time when all he can think about is what kind of fool had he been for trusting him, only intensified Quentin's guilt and shame.  He knew better.  He'd always known better.  He spent 6 years cursing the name Oliver Queen only to come to think of the man as his partner?  They say partners share a relationship akin to the commitment of marriage, only for Quentin to discover he shacked up with the man that pulled Sara into his bed and set her on the road toward her deathbed.  It's another deeply personal betrayal.

 

But at the same time, his actions aren't about Sara's death because he genuinely believes that whatever good Oliver Queen as the Arrow did can not be outweighed by the chaos he has invited and inspired. For him, Sara's death (and his loss of faith in the Arrow because this was kept from him)  opened his eyes to what he at least now sees as the truth that had always been there.

 

 And this is why I take Quentin's motives seriously and can't dismiss them as an over the top reaction to Sara's death. I will rage against the plot induced stupidity that kept him in the dark but I don't think Quentin is confused about what he's doing.  On the contrary, he sees things clearly for the first time in years.  This is about right and wrong and on every level that Quentin can see, Oliver Queen is wrong.   

[apinknightmare]

Legal question: Laurel said that Lance had frozen Thea's assets so that Oliver wouldn't have access to any money to escape. That's not something that can be done if she hasn't been connected to a crime, is it? I mean, she's been down in the lair, and she does own Verdant, but Lance doesn't know that's where the Arrow operates from yet, and there's nothing indicating that Thea is a co-conspirator. 

[looptab]

When they met in Secret Origin, and Donna asks Felicity if Oliver is her friend, I thought she answered 'No' because she was embarrassed by her mother and didn't want to introduce them. I didn't take it as one of her usual slips.

[benteen]

Legal question: Laurel said that Lance had frozen Thea's assets so that Oliver wouldn't have access to any money to escape. That's not something that can be done if she hasn't been connected to a crime, is it? I mean, she's been down in the lair, and she does own Verdant, but Lance doesn't know that's where the Arrow operates from yet, and there's nothing indicating that Thea is a co-conspirator. 

 

That's what I was thinking to.  On what legal grounds could Lance have that done?

 

As I've said before, if the powers to be in Starling (whomever they are) are stupid enough to believe that Roy is the Arrow, then Quentin's career has to end because he would have falsely and publicly accused the same man twice of being the Arrow.

[Fat Elvis 007]

Statsgirl: "The Dr. Who comment -- I wonder if that line was put in because EBR is a Dr. Who fan herself. A year of so ago an interviewer asked cast members if they were on a desert island, what they would most like to have washed up on shore and EBR said "the TARDIS"."

Are you sure that's right? Because this sounds exactly like a scene from Agents of SHIELD Season 1, and it was Jemma Simmons who said this.

I actually buy Quentin's obsessiveness here. It doesn't make rational sense, but it's not supposed to. The one thing that bothered me was Roy posing as the Arrow at the end. I did like the way that was foreshadowed with Roy saying he felt relieved when he thought he was about to be arrested, but I don't see how that plan is going to work this time.

[kismet]

Of course I just couldn't resist going back and looking at the scene when Donna met Oliver. I've never seen Oliver looks so giddy. I would have absolutely no problem believing she knew Oliver was in love with her daughter.

I didn't see it at first either but there is a small moment when Oliver is saying how nice it was to meet DS and is about ready to walk away and he glances over at Felicity and boom, she has the goofy grin and heart eyes as she watches him walk away and Mamma Smoak is watching.

I can accept that between the way Oliver got real excited to meet Felicity's mom and Felicity's comment about Oliver not a friend, Donna could have figured out these two were in love. Donna doesn't actually say that she saw Felicity light up like a Xmas tree in the first five seconds, she only offers it as further support of how she knew and though it's a brief moment, there is a moment where Felicity loses the frowny face and just looks twitterpatted.

When my mother had a mass of blood clots in her lungs, they considered her immobilized by not letting her get up. She was not allowed out of bed at all for a few days but there were no restrictions on visitation.

His blood clot actually rang pretty true to me. Because of his fresh wound he'd be at risk of bleeding out if they went crazy with the blood thinners and even if they did, it wouldn't make the clot in his brain vanish instantly. They said for whatever reason they couldn't operate and could only wait for him to get stronger, banking on the future surgery (if in the meantime the clot didn't move) I guess I assumed they were feeling confident that the clot WOULD move if they thinned his blood which Is real risk of the treatment. Right now the clot was sitting in a place where it wasn't causing symptoms but it had the potential to dislodge and that is exactly why blood clots are so lethal.

I had a friend, 27 years old, healthy, who broke his ankle, went in, got the cast, came home, took a nap and died in his sleep from a blood clot. Then there's my mother who has been hospitalized three times for massive clots in her lungs only to be fine each time (and a fourth time when she was feeling symptoms, they just gave her a series of shots to give herself at home - and FINALLY figured out they should leave the poor woman on her blood thinner to which she has done fine on since)

Blood clots make a fantastic "he looks fine but could drop dead any moment disease" IMO. Silent killers.

I had bigger issues with how he just seemed a little weak after having an arrow plunged into and then removed back out of his chest. That seemed like the kind of wound were they stick tubes in you to drain crap at the very least. Maybe even stick you on a ventilator since wouldn't it have hit his lung? But no, he's a little loopy from the meds and on some oxygen but otherwise they are barely monitoring him.

Totally right about Oliver's reaction. That scene was filled with overload of facial emotion. And the happiness with which oq introduced diggle to mama smoak priceless.

Blood clots are a very serious issue. I think thats why I was so disappointed they didnt do more to impress how serious they are. They had 1 convo with md & then seemed to disregard everything he said by their anger over not being able to use nanotech. All hospitals have rules so uts completely undersatandable that the md cant just use this experimental tech without some review. If conventional methods were too dangerous, then fs & rp should have put a few mins of weighing pros/cons. Maybe run a digital experiment on one of their computer programs first.

All of us have our little pet peeves, but if ur gonna do real medical issues on a show I just wish they are handled better or just bypass using real medical issues at all. They could have made it as vague as the "heart condition" that ql seems to have. The point of that scene was the nanotech which they could have introduced another way. But yes blood clots are very serious and should not be handled lightly.

Edited April 4, 2015 by kismet

[statsgirl]

Fat Elvis 007, I think you're right.  I have to stop watching so much TV.

 

Donna only met Oliver once, but she didn't necessarily have to see Felicity light up that time.  It could be that Felicity lights up whenever she's talking to her mother about Oliver.  Even over the phone or skyping, her tone could become more vibrant and she could start looking happier or more excited than when she's talking about other things.

 

I assume the watch Ray gave her was programmed to ping whenever his name was mentioned by the media.  This is one of those kidding / not kidding moments where as I wrote something in jest it suddenly seemed exactly like what must have happened.

LOL. That would be so Ray. Not out of ego, but because he'd think it was super cool.

 

I agree with you on Quentin's cold=blooded targeting of the Arrow.

 

Coumadin was the drug of choice in my family for years, with my father, mother and even husband was on it for a while following a blood clot. (Also lots of testing for the Leiden Factor V which increases your chance of getting a clot if you're immobile for too long.)  It seems to me such an obvious choice if Ray has a potentially fatal blood clot.  Maybe they were afraid of his wound opening up if they gave Ray blood thinners (although they could glue it to lessen the chance of that) but the idea that the man has a blood clot and the doctors do absolutely nothing to help him?  Bad writing.

[nksarmi]

"Now he has nobody, and no place to put his anger other than in a manhurt for the Arrow. Before he had his job and hunting for the Dollmaker, and then he had the bottle, but through it he had Laurel. Now he doesn't have her any more, Dinah is gone and Hilton (thanks for the reminder, Quentin) is dead -- all he has is his anger."

Then he should (1) find a good psychiatrist; (2) take a Xanax; and (3) resign, because anyone with so little control of his emotions should not be in a position of authority.

You know I was actually thinking today that as flimsy as Roy's confession is.....they actually have NO evidence that they could take to trial against Oliver.  They have no eye witnesses placing him at a scene except for Ra's - and really, is he going to testify?  They have no fingerprints, no recordings, nothing.  I mean Quentin could go after his known acquaintances, but then he would have to admit his own culpability. In fact, I am not 100% sure Quentin had enough evidence to get these arrest warrants to begin with - let alone enough to freeze Thea's assets.  Finally, given Quentin's clear connection to Oliver and the reasons he has to hate him (Sara's death, mistreatment of Laurel when they were dating), a good defense attorney should get the charges thrown out on that basis alone without Quentin being able to produce some other evidence.  Roy's sacrifice was about as sweet as can be, but I'm not sure it was needed - except that they needed Oliver to be out to defend the city and it might have taken awhile for a lawyer to get him out on bail.

Legal question: Laurel said that Lance had frozen Thea's assets so that Oliver wouldn't have access to any money to escape. That's not something that can be done if she hasn't been connected to a crime, is it? I mean, she's been down in the lair, and she does own Verdant, but Lance doesn't know that's where the Arrow operates from yet, and there's nothing indicating that Thea is a co-conspirator. 

Yea I posted - I don't think there was any legal basis for this, but I guess they thought it would add to the dramatic "man-hunt."  Honestly, I think they had more evidence against Oliver in season one then Quentin has now.  Sure, he can issue arrest warrants for the Arrow and associates in costume - but Oliver himself? and Thea's money?  I don't think he had grounds for that.

[benteen]

I wonder if Lance wasn't just taking advantage of the fact that the Mayor was done and he's a police commissioner (or Captain or whatever).

[tennisgurl]

I just realized who Quentin reminded me of in this episode...he has basically morphed into J. Jonah Jamison! 

 

The Arrow could be saving a kitten from a tree, and he could be ranting about how its all Oliver`s fault that trees got big enough to be dangerous for kittens, and that Oliver allowed cats to evolve enough so that they could climb trees. That Arrow is a menace! 

[Password]

Dearest Quentin is removing all blame from Sara for even going on the Queen's Gambit with Oliver. But she was daddy's little girl, no one wants to think their child did something that...selfish.

Still, I agree wholeheartedly with @nksarmi. There was no evidence other than Ra's Al Ghul saying Oliver is the Arrow. But I guess the people of Starling accept word of mouth over evidence to prosecute someone who cleans up the streets very effectively. I suppose the mayor dying had something to do with turning on the Arrow but Oliver?...it's not very credible.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Password

[calliope1975]

I just realized who Quentin reminded me of in this episode...he has basically morphed into J. Jonah Jamison! 

 

The Arrow could be saving a kitten from a tree, and he could be ranting about how its all Oliver`s fault that trees got big enough to be dangerous for kittens, and that Oliver allowed cats to evolve enough so that they could climb trees. That Arrow is a menace! 

 

And just like JJJ, Quentin reaped the benefits of his city's hero.

 

Can you freeze a suspect's relative's assets? Is that a thing that can e done? Probably, because the US justice system is whack, but I can't see how that's legally doable.

[AyChihuahua]

Re the asset freezing...probably not.  They'd have to be able to show in at least a motion, followed by a hearing, that her assets were entwined with her brother's criminal enterprise, and I don't see how they do that based on the word of Ra's (basically a snitch...snitches allow the police to get warrants for real evidence, they're not all that great of evidence on their own).  They'd have a better shot freezing her assets because they're really Malcolm's assets, but in reality Malcolm would have no assets because his estate would have been sued into penury.  But law on this show is nutbars crazy.  In reality the police don't decide to prosecute or not prosecute, and there's this little thing called the federal government that is likely to have a little something to say, too.  

[catrox14]

I was just rewatching the episode and OMG. I didn't really even realize that Laurel fucking jumps off the building without a rope and Oliver catches her midair. 

 

LOL what the hell?  Did she just not realize that there was no rope attached to her at all?  Was she supposed to have jumped with Oliver but didn't?  Did she have a rope but it broke so that's why Oliver had to catch her?

[Oscirus]

Is the asset freezing legal? Probably not. But if you consider the fact that Oliver lives with his sister, frequents her club, and probably at least pretends to work for her, combine that with a motivated DA's office and get the right judge and that should be more then enough to get sufficient permission to do something like that.

 

The real question is: How would Oliver know? I doubt that he would let his sister be involved in something as nefarious as aiding and abetting a criminal. Especially if the criminal in question is him.

[Lii]

1. Why was Laurel still alive after scrapping with the LOA on "shoot to kill" mode? Just... no. 

 

2. When is Tin Can Man leaving for his spinoff already? After his debacle of an entrance, will anyone even watch it?

 

3. Even right out of the shower, FlashbackOllie still has filthy grimy hair. 

 

4. Amanda Waller is still the worst.

 

5. Oliver. Diggle has a BABY. Yet you thought posting up at his place with the cops and LOA both after you was a good idea? Dick move.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Lii

[romantic idiot]

That would be so Ray. Not out of ego, but because he'd think it was super cool.

More plausible since it was his phone originally. I like this

[KirkB]

Come to think of it, this episode further calls into question the abilities of the LoA. Their members not being able to stop Oliver is one thing, since he is the star of the show and has already beaten Nyssa, but how are Roy and especially Laurel even still breathing?

[looptab]

That's the one million dollars question!

[statsgirl]

They do look like a bunch of LARPers.  I could guess that they didn't want to kill Oliver's associates because they wanted them alive to pressure him, but Maseo was going to kill Felicity.  (I'll never forgive him for that.)

 

 

They'd have a better shot freezing her assets because they're really Malcolm's assets, but in reality Malcolm would have no assets because his estate would have been sued into penury. 

Maybe Malcolm hid a bunch of money really, really well and all the people trying to sue couldn't find anything other than the corporate assets.  But even if they could take Thea's assets, wouldn't it take someone higher up than Quentin, like a judge, to do it?

 

I can only conclude that Starling City, after the Undertaking, mirakuru soldiers and Brick, is prone to mass hysteria and any time someone says "bad guy", they all jump on the bandwagon.