S04.E17: Best Laid Plans

[orza]

It seems a little off that Snow became catatonic and then suicidal after killing Cora, but after kidnapping a baby, performing a spell that would make it evil and then banishing it to another realm, she was just feeling guilty and then decided to be a cheerleader for Hope. I never really understood Snow's extreme reaction in Season 2 and this episode just made it even less understandable. 

About 30 years had passed between the two events. Fairytale land Snow still had that "I'm a princess" sense of entitlement going on while Storybrook Snow had been goody-two shoes "I'm a doormat" Mary Margaret for the last 28 years. Actually killing a person or seeing up close how Regina as her agent killed Cora and her subsequent grief and anguish would be a lot more affecting than watching a stranger wave his hand over an egg containing something she didn't view as a person.

[KAOS Agent]

She most definitely saw it as a person. She freaked out when it hatched and a tiny arm was seen waving. It was an innocent child. She watched Cora kill her beloved nanny right in front of her. She knew Cora had killed her mother. She knew Cora had killed Daniel. She knew Cora had plans to kill her entire family and everyone she cared about. Her reaction to killing Cora vs. destroying a newborn infant's life should have been reversed. That she was in fact more distraught over Cora's death than over what she'd done to an innocent child is ridiculous.

[orza]

Snow didn't realize there was a person in the egg until it was too late. she was fine purloining a dragon's egg and having magic performed on it to benefit her own child. You've never killed a person, I guess, Experienced cops regularly need counseling after killing a criminal in the line of duty. Soldiers experience PTSD after killing enemy troops in battle. Killing a person, even a hated person, and seeing them die right in front of you is a lot different than taking an action that separates a child from her mother but leaves them both alive with perhaps the vague hope that maybe they'll be ok in the future.

[kingshearte]

It's because Charming is only supposed to find out Emma's gender when they go to visit Rumple in his cell, where Snow is much more further along - so they can't have Snow referring to Emma as she. Charming needs to be in the dark.

To paraphrase my favourite former pirate, *now* we're concerned with continuity?

[tennisgurl]

The problem with this episode (as well as its attempts at filling in more back story) is that every time they try to make something make more sense, its gets even more confusing. Like this author thing. Or this whole Snowing retcon. It can best be surmised by this bit from Futurama...

 

Zoidberg [underwater]: My home, it burned down! How did this happen!?
Hermes: That's a very good question!
Bender [picking up his still-lit cigar from the underwater ruins]: So that's where I left my cigar.
Hermes: That just raises further questions!

 

This show is Bender, and, god help me, I am Hermes, trying to make sense of it all. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

The problem with this episode (as well as its attempts at filling in more back story) is that every time they try to make something make more sense, its gets even more confusing. Like this author thing.

This author plot is an oxymoron. The more answers they give, the more confusing and unresolved it becomes. One can of worms opened after another.

Edited April 5, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I just rewatched the first two episodes of 4B with a friend who didn't catch them.  There's practically no rewatch value, except frustration.  

 

When David showed the rattle he found in Cruella's car to Snow, she goes, "David, that belonged to Maleficent - you know how much that meant to her."

 

Didn't she accidentally step on it on her way out of the dragon cave while stealing the egg?  How would she know it meant a lot to Maleficent?

 

And then what Snow said to Maleficent when she appeared at the end of her bed:

 

MALEFICENT: If we work together, we will find a way to defeat Regina.

SNOW: No.  If we succumb to darkness just to defeat this curse, our child will be doomed to that darkness as well.

 

So what happened to that reasoning?

 

And then later, Regina in the rain asked EXACTLY what makes no sense here.

 

SNOW: Emma was born with the potential for great darkness.

REGINA: But she's the savior. A hero. Her magic's as light as it gets.

SNOW: Because David and I went to extraordinary lengths to make sure it was.

REGINA: If you ensured her goodness, why can't you tell her?

SNOW: The same reason you don't want Henry to hear about all the terrible things you did in your past. You wanna protect him So he doesn't lose faith in the person you've become The person he always believed you could be. That's why Emma can never find out what I'm about to tell you. She's finally starting to open up her heart. And if she learns the truth, if we let her down, she'll lose faith in us, and it could send her tumbling down a dark path.

 

Huh?  This makes even LESS sense now after this latest episode.  Who knew that was even possible.

 

And Rumple to the Queens of Darkness in the 4A premiere:

 

CRUELLA: Now what do we do?

RUMPLE: Now we begin our task. It's simple, really. Continue to repent your wicked ways. Make friends. Build relationships.

 

So what happened to that?  Four episodes in, Ursula's already out the door!  

Edited April 5, 2015 by Camera One

[jhlipton]

Continue to repent your wicked ways. Make friends. Build relationships.

 

They didn't; they didn't and they didn't!  All according to plan!

[KAOS Agent]

 

Didn't she accidentally step on it on her way out of the dragon cave while stealing the egg?  How would she know it meant a lot to Maleficent?

 

I thought that was a particularly nice touch to make sure we knew how horrible Snowing are. They crushed the rattle.

 

 

And if she learns the truth, if we let her down, she'll lose faith in us, and it could send her tumbling down a dark path.

 

Apparently, being betrayed by a friend, potential adoptive mother and a boyfriend and growing up alone and unloved had no effect on Emma's ability to be a good person, but Snowing doing something bad 30 years ago will turn Emma dark. Wow, these people think way too much of themselves.

Edited April 5, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

Snow and David just needed a dumb excuse to keep the truth from Emma---that they were morons.

[Zuleikha]

And if she learns the truth, if we let her down, she'll lose faith in us, and it could send her tumbling down a dark path.

 

Was that before or after Snowing overheard the Emma conversation with Hook? Assuming after, Snow's fear about Emma losing faith in them specifically makes sense because Emma explicitly talked about being inspired by her parents (or something like that) to open up and see the better in people. The "tumbling down a dark path," though, doesn't make any more sense.

 

Eeergh, I've been thinking about why Jane E.'s tweets about the unicorn mobile bothered me so much, and the quoted Snow speech to Regina helps clarify it. In isolation, I think Jane E's right that she wrote a scene in which Snowing had a heart to heart and transformed the unicorn mobile from a symbol of failure to a symbol of hope. But the scene didn't happen in isolation. It happened in the context of a story in which present day Snowing have been lying and scheming to protect the shame of their secret from discovery. So while it's nice that Snowing made a vow to be better people and live up to their ideals in the past, we've been watching them completely fail to do all of that in the present. They could have viewed Cruella/Ursula's presence as an opportunity to try and find Maleficent's daughter and make up for their wrong as best as possible but instead they schemed against them, tried to prevent Maleficent's rebirth, and lied to Emma about an important event surrounding her gestation.

 

Snowing don't appear to have actually grown, and that undercuts the power of the nursery scene.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Zuleikha

[Camera One]

Unless that's their point.  The villains try to change and yet are deprived of a happy ending.  The so-called heroes are pathetically trying to cover their ass and are only giving lip-service to trying to change.

 

In "Unforgiven", when referring to past misdeeds, Henry tells Regina, and Emma tells Hook (just like Belle used to tell Rumple), "I know you're not that person anymore".  But the whole way this is written shows that Snowing ARE still the type of people who presumably lie and cover up their evil deeds.  

Edited April 5, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Does anyone wonder where Baby Snowflake was this episode? Presumably, he was in the loft with Emma & Hook during the sleeping spell since his parents were home before they went off on Operation Cover Our Ass. Then Maleficent comes into the loft and Team Evil talks about killing Emma. Wouldn't Maleficent be interested in making off with the baby as well? Shouldn't Snowing have been more worried about leaving both of their children vulnerable while the person who cast the spell is running around town and has a huge reason to target them? Wouldn't protecting them have been a better idea than trying to cover their tracks? They should have at least taken the baby with them.

[Camera One]

The writers forgot Snow had that nightmare in "Unforgiven" about Maleficent getting the baby.  

 

In 4A, Snow was struggling to let go of the baby.  Now, she couldn't care less.  Who says they don't do character development.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Camera One

[FabulousTater]

Does anyone wonder where Baby Snowflake was this episode?

I still don't like BDO, so if the show wants to forget about him or not mention him for an episode or two, or three, or twenty-three then I won't complain. Actually, I'd be pretty happy if the writers were to never mention Snowflake again and were to pretend that storyline and Snowflake never happened.

 

Nothing personal against babies. In real life Yay! for babies, but on TV shows baby plots usually totally suck and this one hasn't been an exception to that, imo. These writers didn't need any more assistance in the "plots that are ruining this show" department.

Edited April 6, 2015 by FabulousTater

[YaddaYadda]

Then Maleficent comes into the loft and Team Evil talks about killing Emma. Wouldn't Maleficent be interested in making off with the baby as well?

 

But the whole thing was so...Snowing realize that Emma is under the sleeping spell which makes her vulnerable, so Snow is like "Emma", then Henry calls about the page and it's like we'll both be right there.  The writing for that was atrocious.  Snowing don't have magic, so strike one.  Can't really defend themselves.

 

The scene with everyone in the loft and Rumple going through drawers was just so...and Cruella's remark about snapping Emma's neck.  How is that a bad idea?  If you kill the Savior, there is no more Savior to contend with.

 

And Rumple doesn't give a second look to the man whose heart he tried to crush 6 weeks ago.  He is sleeping right there!!  How can anyone take Rumple seriously with all his "I should have killed you when I had the chance," when the man is sleeping right there!

 

The heroes are stupid, but the villains are even stupider.

[legaleagle53]

I think Snow's unicorn vision was not literally of Emma, it was just meant to indicate "her child", and in fact is actually about her second child.

 

Except that her second child is male.

[dr pepper]

Except that her second child is male.

 

That's why it's not literal.

[legaleagle53]

It would make no sense for it to be figurative, though.  Snow was pregnant with Emma at the time she had the vision, and the vision was very clearly the same teenage Emma that we viewers had already met earlier in the season.  There would be no logical reason for anyone (including the viewers) to think that it was about Snow's second child when she hadn't even had her first one yet and wouldn't even have been thinking that far ahead (remember, Snow didn't even say that she wanted another child until the events of the infamous Cave of Secrets).  Besides, Maleficent had specifically told Snow and David that the reason the tree rejected them was because of the child Snow was then carrying, not because of a child that she would be carrying more than 30 years later.  Snow and David were only thinking of the child they were then expecting when they touched the Unicorn, so there is again no logical reason to believe that the vision related to any child other than the one that Snow was already pregnant with.

[YaddaYadda]

According to Glinda, Do Over is pure of heart, so there!  Take that Emma, you and your awful darkness and your free will and all!

[Zuleikha]

Glinda also thought Charming and Snow were pure of heart, so maybe her standards are just low. :)

[Curio]

I hate everything about hearts being deemed "pure" or "dark." I could actually be on board with Do Over having a pure heart right now because he's a freaking baby and doesn't have the capacity to think about his actions yet and his brain isn't developed enough to the point where it might have a conscience. Which is also why it's so stupid that Snow thought Maleficent might have been right about Emma being automatically evil as an infant.

 

This arc could have been a really interesting study in nature vs. nurture, but instead, I just find myself finding loose items around me to throw at the TV whenever they talk about this stuff.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

I hate everything about hearts being deemed "pure" or "dark." I could actually be on board with Do Over having a pure heart right now because he's a freaking baby and doesn't have the capacity to think about his actions yet and his brain isn't developed enough to the point where it might have a conscience.

 

That's how I took when Glinda said the whole pure hearts schpeal.  They totally fudged that up.  My issues with Snow keep piling up though.

[Shanna Marie]

I could actually be on board with Do Over having a pure heart right now because he's a freaking baby and doesn't have the capacity to think about his actions yet and his brain isn't developed enough to the point where it might have a conscience.

That's what I thought it was about back when that happened, that a fetus would automatically have a pure heart because he hasn't had the chance to do anything, either good or bad, and doesn't have a developed enough brain to plan anything, good or bad. It had nothing to do with what the child might end up doing in life. He could become Rumple's disciple and a serial killer in life and still have a pure heart as a fetus. But having Snow rejected because of her potentially evil fetus made it all ridiculous, especially when what they also said was that she had the potential for great good. So basically, that tree just doesn't allow pregnant women, since all babies are unrealized potential that could go either way.

 

And Rumple doesn't give a second look to the man whose heart he tried to crush 6 weeks ago.  He is sleeping right there!!  How can anyone take Rumple seriously with all his "I should have killed you when I had the chance," when the man is sleeping right there!

I suppose you could argue that he needs to keep Hook alive if he ever wants to try the hat ritual again, but then there's no reason for him not to even try ripping out Hook's heart to keep in storage until he gets the hat back and the stars align. And bonus, he could use the ripped heart to make Hook turn on Emma and betray her, which would then help toward that goal of turning Emma dark. So far, they've done absolutely nothing toward what's apparently a pretty key part of the plan. It seems like pretty poor strategy to wait until they've learned exactly where to find the author before they start trying to turn Emma dark.

 

Who knows, they may have been bright enough to put that no-ripping spell in Hook, given that his heart is a key ingredient in Rumple becoming dagger-free, but Rumple should at least have tried in that moment when Hook was utterly helpless.

[Camera One]

Just rewatched this with the friend who came back into town for the weekend.  This was even more infuriating to watch the second time around.  My friend was really feeling sorry for Maleficent, saying Charming and Snow were acting like villains, how evil they were to consider burning the page, etc.  All the scenes seems to have had their intended effect.

[Hecate7]

On 4/4/2015 at 6:20 PM, KAOS Agent said:

It seems a little off that Snow became catatonic and then suicidal after killing Cora, but after kidnapping a baby, performing a spell that would make it evil and then banishing it to another realm, she was just feeling guilty and then decided to be a cheerleader for Hope. I never really understood Snow's extreme reaction in Season 2 and this episode just made it even less understandable. 

This. ^^^^

It's completely out of character for her to do this and never obsess over it, never feel  tormented. They created Snow as a compassionate person who loves everyone and talks to birds, someone animals and Henry trust. Why would she do this? It strikes a very false note.

I feel as if the author is meant to be our authors, and the meta winking is cute and ok--it's clear our authors do not approve of their creation's retconning everything to give the villains happy endings, and yet that is exactly what they are doing. I'm waiting for something to make sense of or perhaps even undo all of it.

[Shanna Marie]

I hate this episode so much. I couldn't even make myself really watch it. I just had it on in the background while I did other things to distract myself from the hate.

I think they might have been able to make the eggnapping stuff make a little more sense if they'd set it after they learned Emma needed to be the Savior for the curse. Then they would have had reason to fear that they couldn't take the risk that Emma would turn out dark, since the fate of the whole kingdom would be at stake. As it is, it comes across like Snow is afraid that her child won't be perfect. It doesn't help matters that they never really committed to the idea of fate or the idea of being born with a great potential for darkness (whatever happened to "evil isn't born, it's made"?) and kept hedging their bets, so that it came across like all this was actually meaningless -- she has great potential for darkness, but also potential to be a great hero, and even if you remove the darkness, it all depends on how she's brought up. So, basically, it's meaningless because every kid has potential for good or evil, and a lot has to do with how they're brought up.

Then there's the whole thing about how the Author was imprisoned because he did bad things and broke the rules, and they know that Rumple has plans that could harm Emma that involve the Author, but Regina's happy ending is too important, so the heck with all that and let's free him.

Oh, and I guess they didn't look into anything about unicorn lore because generally in tales of unicorns, only virgins are able to touch them, and if the Charmings are expecting a baby, then they can't be virgins. So the whole "touch the unicorn horn to learn the future of your unborn child" thing probably shouldn't work. I guess they were tying it to the unicorn mobile. And it seemed to me like the "visions" were more a reflection of their own hopes and fears than projection of what Emma would be.

They really needed to pick a personality for Snow. One day, she's all sunny optimism and hope speeches. The next day, she's gloom and doom and jumping straight to the worst-case scenario, living in fear. It doesn't seem like you'd have both at such extremes in the same person without some kind of chemical imbalance or mental illness.

[Camera One]

46 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

They really needed to pick a personality for Snow. One day, she's all sunny optimism and hope speeches. The next day, she's gloom and doom and jumping straight to the worst-case scenario, living in fear. It doesn't seem like you'd have both at such extremes in the same person without some kind of chemical imbalance or mental illness.

Maybe when Eva visited the Tree of Wisdom while pregnant, the tree told her that Snow had a great propensity for pessimism, so Eva did a hope transplant for Snow White, taking hope away from Baby Maleficent.

[andromeda331]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

Maybe when Eva visited the Tree of Wisdom while pregnant, the tree told her that Snow had a great propensity for pessimism, so Eva did a hope transplant for Snow White, taking hope away from Baby Maleficent.

Or she tripped Maleficent or she told Stefan that Maleficent was bad or prevented her from being able to baby trap him or whoever. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by andromeda331

[tennisgurl]

I mean, I was previously told that evil was not born, it was made, but I guess when its not Regina or Rumple, its different? Right, because its always different when its Emma and the Charmings. Thanks for nothing, stupid vague prophesy tree!

This is just so stupid, I cant even. The idea that Snow and Charming would do something so messed up just because their kid might be evil is just so ridiculous and melodramatic. "Your child has potential for great good OR great evil!" I mean yeah..so does everyone? Thats not that big of a revelation. Maybe if they knew their kid would be the Savior and have magic powers they would be more concerned, like if their kid went dark they could do real damage, but they had no idea about that, they just assumed it would be some non magic kid. Oh, and speaking of dramatics...Cinderella sent a unicorn toy, a unicorn reminds me of this crappy thing we did! Dont even get me started on the poached eggs on toast we got served at breakfast this morning!

Spoiler

Its reminds me a lot of the hysterics surrounding the Savior prophesy that all Saviors "will die" and how that reduced Emma to a trembling mess. But its all so vague and lacking in detail and context, its just seems like "well, yeah I assume they would die eventually..." its not like it said anything about them dying young or in a bloody way, it just said they will die one day, the same way they would anyway if they werent Saviors. Its supposed to be dramatic, but its so sparse in its attempts to sound mystical, it just becomes stupid!

And of course, knowing that the Author was behind it all, makes the whole plot basically pointless. Was everything from the tree onward just stuff that he made up because it sounded cool? Did Snow and Charming have no free will whatsoever in this? Did anyone? Because if they were forced to do this by the story, none of this is even their fault, and all of this is even MORE pointless!

The Author stuff actually has kind of an interesting set up here, and has the start of a cool kind of magical meta feel, but it also raises about a billion questions, which I will certainly get to eventually (this is one of my favorite plots to complain about and nitpick, no lie), and has such major implications for this universe, that this feels like it should be a bigger deal than it feels like. And how the hell does August know all of this anyway?!

I do think its clever of them to cast a "Hey, its that one day!" type of actor who has done a lot of guest spots, one off characters, and supporting character arcs in a lot of tv shows, who is recognizable but not really famous for anything in particular, it makes it easy to imagine that he has been The Author this whole time, in tons of fictional universes watching the story in the background, taking notes and causing trouble. So next time a character does something stupid, dickish, or out of character, just blame it on this asshole. Of course, that probably wasnt why they really cast this guy and his past roles are just a coincidence, I dont think this show is smart enough to do something that subtlety meta. 

[daxx]

On 3/11/2019 at 9:42 AM, tennisgurl said:

Your child has potential for great good OR great evil!" I mean yeah..so does everyone? Thats not that big of a revelation.

Like every child everywhere. Stupidest plot ever. 

“Charming we’ve made a terrible mistake” I love how Snow always starts this nonsense and always shares the blame with David.

the more I watch this show the more I dislike Snow, if she calls herself a hero one more time...