Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[SevenStars]

It's not the issues that are opposite - it's the representation. And unfortunately that does create an image for black women that actually permeates real life. Look up "why are black women single" and you'll see a lot of ugly stereotypes in the articles and in the comment sections that really do reflect how black women are portrayed in media. If you never see black women in media shown in healthy relationships with men, that can actually impact how they are treated in society - it becomes a vicious cycle.

I green with this. I was reading an article about a study that was done to show the preferences of white men,Asian men, black men, white women, black women etc... and you can literally see how society's sterotypes, ideas and beliefs impacted the romantic preferences of everyone in these groups. This is why I suggest that people question the reason for their preferences without shame or fear. Because when you do, you realize how much impact society ideas and believe have on your perferences without you even realizing it.

Edited September 13, 2015 by SevenStars

[Lokiberry]

 

This is why I suggest that people question the reason for their preferences without shame or fear. Because when you do, you realize how much impact society ideas and believe have on your perferences without you even realizing itanp

Thank you for your interest, but  after examining my preferences for many decades, I have come to the conclusion that I much prefer to ship same sex couples. That's why I won't be shipping Barry with any of the women. Instead, I will be shipping him with Cisco, Poor Dead Eddie, Real Harrison Wells, Cold, Diggle, Ray, and in a Special Crossover Event, Gotham's Jim Gordon. (Note that Oliver Queen is not on this list. Barry doesn't deserve to be stuck with all that baggage)

 

As someone who has shipped same sex couples back before the internet was even a glint in Al Gore's eye, I have had my preferences questioned many times. I have been lectured at, moralized at, and been told that my presence was not welcomed in "normal" fandom. So, when I see posts that, however well-intentioned they may be, tell people to re-examine their preferences, I can't help wishing that we could all be more tolerant. Can't we just accept that people are going to ship who they want to ship, and let it be? Shippers who prefer Snowberry, Barricity, Barry/Linda, or potentially Barry/Patty are just doing their own thing. Is it really necessary to imply that there's something morally wrong with their thinking because they don't want to jump on the WestAllen train?

 

Perhaps it would be beneficial to examine why, in every fandom, some segments are so bound and determined to squash alternate ships.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Lokiberry

[driedfruit]

Is it really necessary to imply that there's something morally wrong with their thinking because they don't want to jump on the WestAllen train?

 

Yeah sure, not every alternative shipper rejects WestAllen because of Iris' skin color, we get it. No one is saying that's the case. However, studies have been done on people's reaction and preferences to characters, and things like race/gender do make a difference. It's not a statement on any individual, but it's a behavior that's prevalent enough in fan spaces that it does become an issue and warrants it to be addressed and examined.

 

In other words, if it doesn't apply to you then feel secure in that and don't take it personally.

 

Additionally, slash pairings are hardly exempt from racial bias. As a fellow slash shipper, I've seen obvious trends in fandoms preferring white m/m and f/f slash pairings and often rejecting anything romantic between a white character and a PoC. Cisco/Barry for example don't get anywhere near the same reception as Barry/Eobard, Barry/Eddie, Barry/Piper... and to me it's really not surprising.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Chip
removed questionable phrasing

[phoenics]

As someone who has shipped same sex couples back before the internet was even a glint in Al Gore's eye, I have had my preferences questioned many times. I have been lectured at, moralized at, and been told that my presence was not welcomed in "normal" fandom. So, when I see posts that, however well-intentioned they may be, tell people to re-examine their preferences, I can't help wishing that we could all be more tolerant. Can't we just accept that people are going to ship who they want to ship, and let it be? Shippers who prefer Snowberry, Barricity, Barry/Linda, or potentially Barry/Patty are just doing their own thing. Is it really necessary to imply that there's something morally wrong with their thinking because they don't want to jump on the WestAllen train?

 

Perhaps it would be beneficial to examine why, in every fandom, some segments are so bound and determined to squash alternate ships.

This is a gross misinterpretation of what was said. I'm not sure if it was deliberate or not, but you've really missed the point.

 

When we are talking about "examining preferences", we are talking about the inclination of a society steeped in a white supremacist mindset to automatically by default ship the white hetero male with a white hetero female, even if the female lead and intended love interest is a black hetero female.  This is usually followed up with the stock phrase, "I just prefer it that way."  Nothing necessarily wrong with that - just that some people might want to re-examine why they can never seem to ship any couples unless both are white and straight.  In the example you've presented about your preferences, it would be the same, except you could replace "black hetero female" with "homosexual male or male" and the point would still be the same.

What was said actually SUPPORTS your view.

 

Edited September 18, 2015 by phoenics

[Sakura12]

I ship by chemistry between the characters/actors not their skin color. We are mostly presented with white lead characters in shows/movies so we are not really given options. I do wish that will change soon, there are a bunch of different race actors out there wanting work.

 

I liked that in this show Barry's love interests so far have been Asian (Linda) and Black (Iris). Caitlin has only been presented as a shipper interest, Barry hasn't shown romantic interest in her on screen so I don't count her. But I know that now he's getting a white love interest with Patty. 

[Ruby25]

Yeah, that's kind of annoying actually- despite the refreshing nature of his having two non-white love interests in the first season, his first big serious relationship on the show is going to be with a blonde white girl.

[Sakura12]

With that happening, I can only hope that Iris and Linda have some great scenes together. If we can't get romantic interests, lets get some female friendships going. 

[Trini]

Yeah, that's kind of annoying actually- despite the refreshing nature of his having two non-white love interests in the first season, his first big serious relationship on the show is going to be with a blonde white girl.

 

Well, we'll see how big and serious it gets. We already know this shows sucks at romance.

 

Man, I didn't really think through the implications of (white) Patty coming in. I can see people shipping that hard as an alternative to (black) Iris. --For viewers where race may inform their preference.

[Ruby25]

Well, I assumed they wanted him to be with someone seriously, even if it's just to spur Iris's feelings eventually, but that means he's probably going to be with Patty for quite a while. And yeah, if so then she will be his first big ongoing relationship on the show (and of Barry's life, really, unless high school gf Becky Cooper counts), and they chose a blonde white girl for that. And so I do find that a little annoying, given how it was kinda nice and new that his love interests last year (aside from Felicity, who wasn't really one) weren't white.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Ruby25

[SevenStars]

Thank you for your interest, but after examining my preferences for many decades, I have come to the conclusion that I much prefer to ship same sex couples. That's why I won't be shipping Barry with any of the women. Instead, I will be shipping him with Cisco, Poor Dead Eddie, Real Harrison Wells, Cold, Diggle, Ray, and in a Special Crossover Event, Gotham's Jim Gordon. (Note that Oliver Queen is not on this list. Barry doesn't deserve to be stuck with all that baggage)

As someone who has shipped same sex couples back before the internet was even a glint in Al Gore's eye, I have had my preferences questioned many times. I have been lectured at, moralized at, and been told that my presence was not welcomed in "normal" fandom. So, when I see posts that, however well-intentioned they may be, tell people to re-examine their preferences, I can't help wishing that we could all be more tolerant. Can't we just accept that people are going to ship who they want to ship, and let it be? Shippers who prefer Snowberry, Barricity, Barry/Linda, or potentially Barry/Patty are just doing their own thing. Is it really necessary to imply that there's something morally wrong with their thinking because they don't want to jump on the WestAllen train?

Perhaps it would be beneficial to examine why, in every fandom, some segments are so bound and determined to squash alternate ships.

Wow, I hit a nerve, didn't I ? That wasn't my intention and it's probably because you took my post the wrong way. But let's be clear, I wasn't talking about people's sexuality. I was talking about the impact society have on us. I wasn't trying to make a moral judgment or trying to tell people that their preferences makes them bad or any such shit. Also, having a preference for decades or however long you had doesn't mean society had no impact in it. But whatever, it's my opinion and suggestion, people are free to take it or leave it.

As for judging people for not shipping WestAllen, I don't really care. I like WestAllen but as long as the writers write great stories for the characters, I don't really care if the writers ever put them together.I'm all about the characters, ships are secondary to me, so people can ship whoever they want, Idgaf.

[CabotCove]

Can't we just accept that people are going to ship who they want to ship, and let it be? Shippers who prefer Snowberry, Barricity, Barry/Linda, or potentially Barry/Patty are just doing their own thing. Is it really necessary to imply that there's something morally wrong with their thinking because they don't want to jump on the WestAllen train?

Perhaps it would be beneficial to examine why, in every fandom, some segments are so bound and determined to squash alternate ships.

 

 

One doesn't have to jump on the ship but why not respect & acknowledge the canon. Barry/Iris is the canon love story of the show so far, regardless of how anyone feels about them. First, I think the whole shipping culture has become so toxic, so I think some of the disrespect on WestAllen is fairly due to that, and not about racism. Its encouraged now to rebel against the canon, to erase it and feel entitled for preferences to be seen as the true canon. 

 

Then there is some prejudice by some because Iris is black, Iris/WestAllen's importance is erased or lessened. They are plenty of reason why some dont like WestAllen but this group exist. I think If one ships something else, the best way to avoid being lumped in with this group is not to bash Iris/WestAllen or trying to erase/belittle WestAllen established canon. You can reject a story but still respect that its the chosen canon, some people go a long way to dismiss Iris as the main love interest for Barry, see her as nothing but a passing crush despite Barry's deep feelings for her as the one and long time friendship,why?.   It happens a lot in the media, just saying, it raises unnecessary eyebrows. 

Edited September 21, 2015 by WildcardC

[Sakura12]

For me comics and television/movies are completely different mediums, tv/movies have to not only depend on writing but the chemistry between two human beings that can't always bring it. Comics don't have to worry about it, so if the balloons in the panels say they love each other, there is nothing else in the way to dispute that. On screen however you now have actors to deal with and they have the even harder job to convince an audience seeing them interact that they are in love with the other character. 

 

While chemistry is subjective, if they really had it a majority of the audience will like them together, otherwise we wouldn't have so many of the will they/won't they with the lead characters on shows. Sometimes it's just not there and it has nothing to do with race. Look at Arrow, everyone involved in the ships are white. The chemistry just wasn't there for a majority of the audience. 

 

I respect Comic canon in the comics, but this isn't the comics and it is not enough for me to ship them, I need to see it with the actors when watching a show. I don't see a ton of romantic chemistry with CP and GG. I'm not opposed to them getting together, I will need them to give me more if they want me to like them together. I will give them more leeway than the Arrow folks because I like both actors and think they have a good friendship chemistry. 

 

However I've stopped shipping on shows because it's a toxic environment filled with too much fighting and hating on the other ship and I feel it pulls my focus from the show as a whole. The characters as individuals are what interests me now. There are couples that I like together but wouldn't care if they broke up or didn't get together, there are couples that I don't care one way or the other like Olicity on Arrow and couples that I would hate if they got together because I feel they have no chemistry and are awful around each other. That's the extent of my shipping. 

[phoenics]

While chemistry is subjective, if they really had it a majority of the audience will like them together, otherwise we wouldn't have so many of the will they/won't they with the lead characters on shows. Sometimes it's just not there and it has nothing to do with race.

Yeah - that sounds so nice and progressive, but it's just not true in reality. It's simply NOT true that if they have chemistry, everyone will just jump on board. This show has proven that. Sleepy Hollow proved that. In fact, this show proved it the moment Candice Patton was cast and a ton of fangirls who couldn't conceive of shipping someone with the white male lead who DIDN'T look like them and thus they couldn't identify with her - so instead the automatically shipped him with the only other white female character - after she told him to pee in a GD cup.

 

I respect Comic canon in the comics, but this isn't the comics and it is not enough for me to ship them, I need to see it with the actors when watching a show. I don't see a ton of romantic chemistry with CP and GG. I'm not opposed to them getting together, I will need them to give me more if they want me to like them together. I will give them more leeway than the Arrow folks because I like both actors and think they have a good friendship chemistry.

I think what many of us are saying is that our society consistently floods us and the airwaves with things that uphold a "white is right" or "white is normal and everything else is other" mindset. We're constantly flooded with imagery of beauty that DOES not look like a black girl. Constantly. You can ignore that and say that it's all about preference - but many of us are asking and wondering if those preferences are shaped by the society that we live in in ways that even the people who hold those preferences don't recognize.

I'm mostly now speaking of "you" as a general you, not you specifically.

There are consistent arguments brought up in fandoms whenever a black female character is brought in as a love interest. Things like, "Why can't we just have two friends who just stay friends?" --> and then somehow when a white love interest is brought in, those concerns and feelings magically evaporate.

I wish these fandoms would stop peeing on my leg and trying to convince me it's rain.

I think the issue is two-fold: overt vs covert.

I think the overt people we understand pretty well - they're the vocal ones using overt terms to explain why Iris or WestAllen sucks for them. They are easy to pick out.

The covert examples are harder to flush out because many people never stop to question their own mind and preferences. And yes, I realize this makes some people uncomfortable to do - because they don't want to acknwledge their unconscious biases - but those unconscious biases tend to create the institutionalized racism and oppression that people like me still have to deal with - and the damages from those are far reaching - even more so than the in your face kind. At least I know what I'm dealing with. With the unconscious, covert kind, it's like fighting a fog... with people falling back on very subjective arguments to avoid talking about the racial elephant in the room.

Edited September 21, 2015 by phoenics

[Ruby25]

I think you make some good points and I don't disagree with them. I know there was definitely grumbling about her when she was first cast and when the show first started- I remember that  and I wasn't even watching it yet, I caught up later. But I definitely heard the noise, it seems to always come from comics fans- it was the same kind of whining you heard about Michael B. Jordan in the Fantastic Four movie.

 

So that's a real possiblity when it comes to complaining about that. It's also true that they didn't write Iris too well in most of the first season, as far as being a character who was constantly in the dark, and that always seems to annoy people watching these kinds of shows- especially if she's like the only person who is. So they didn't do her any favors there, on top of what was probably a faction of people already eager to hate her for other reasons.

 

I think giving her more to do and being more involved will help her out a lot this season though, because none of that was CP's fault, in fact she elevated what she could. I think they are planning to remedy the Iris character and if they do it well and there is still grumbling by the end of the season, we'll know for sure what that grumbling is really about. And it will just have to be ignored.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Ruby25

[wingster55]

While chemistry is subjective, if they really had it a majority of the audience will like them together, otherwise we wouldn't have so many of the will they/won't they with the lead characters on shows.

 

I think they do, and that the majority of the audience does prefer them over Caitlin/Barry. 

But I do think the other poster meant the canon of the show. Through it all, Iris was Barry's strength and motivation more than anyone else. 

[CabotCove]

But I do think the other poster meant the canon of the show.

Yeah I was 100% talking about the canon of The Flash tv show (2015),  I dont know much about WA/Flash in comics. 

Edited September 21, 2015 by WildcardC

[quarks]

I think the reason some fans don't always recognize that the "Why can't men and women just be friends" argument can be used in racist/misogynistic ways is because that argument has also been used with a number of same race couples - it was a big part of the X-Files fandom for years, for instance, with people who didn't want Mulder and Scully together because they liked seeing a strong, platonic friendship on television at last, and wanted X-Files to do something different and not hook up the couple. It was also around with Angel with Angel/Cordelia, although that was also coming from Angel/Buffy shippers. More recently, it's popped up on New Girl (with Nick and Jess), Agents of Shield (with Fitzsimmons) and Agent Carter (with everyone). I even saw it pop up on Bones, even though that show was pretty obviously teasing Booth and Brennan from the start. 

 

Also, fans can react differently to different interracial couples. I'l be pretty specific and use me as an example: over on Scandal, I want Olivia to kill Fitz, then kill him again, then stomp on the little pieces of his body and do several demonic rituals to make sure that his soul burns in hell for eternity. I may have a problem with Fitz. In that particular case, I think the actors can really bring on the heat, but I hate Fitz, to the point where I just can't get behind that ship, so although Olivia/Jake, fine, Olivia/Fitz, absolute worst couple on TV for me.  (I'll put it this way: I think Cersei and Jaime over on GoT have a healthier relationship.) I gave up on Sleepy Hollow a few episodes into the second season, but up until that point, I was definitely Ichabod/Abby - mostly because Katrina seemed really pointless, and I think Tom Mison is much better with Nicole Beharie. Over on Arrow, I like Diggle/Lyla more than I liked Diggle/Carly. On Eureka, I liked Jack/Allison (the interracial couple) a lot more than Jack/Tess (the white couple). On Once Upon a Time I find Aurora/Philip incredibly boring and think that Aurora should go off with Mulan. On Agents of Shield, I like both Fitz and Simmons and Simmons and Trip, but I'm not shipping either of them particularly hard.

 

Meanwhile, over on Flash, I'm ok with all of Barry's potential relationships so far - Barry/Iris, Barry/Linda, Barry/Caitlin, with maybe a slight preference for Barry/Caitlin, but not feeling that strongly about any of them. Does internalized racism play a part in this? Maybe. But the issue I saw with Iris was that she was the last regular character on Flash to find out Barry's secret - about 20 people knew before she did, including a number of characters on another show. If you want to argue that that's racist/misogynistic, I'm mostly with you - the way it was handled on the show definitely felt misogynistic to me, because it was presented as men making decisions on Iris' behalf - decisions I felt were completely unnecessary.  (I realize that Arrow did the same thing with Laurel, but Oliver killed people and had a troubled, sometimes hostile relationship with Laurel. Barry hasn't killed anyone, and Iris is his best friend. Not at all the same thing.)  And I can see an element of racism there, in that it seemed ok for white women Caitlin and Felicity and Lyla to know Barry's secret, but not Iris. Er. Especially after "we've only met once and I know everything" white guy Ray was brought into the secret. Yeah, that didn't play out well with me at all, and I can understand why fans can look at that situation and see at least some unconscious signs of racism. I do.

 

But where I stop short is in then assuming that criticisms of Barry/Iris are rooted in racism, or that fans shipping Barry/Caitlin are necessarily coming from a racist perspective, internalized or not. I'm not trying to defend fans who had issues with Iris before the pilot even aired, especially since - unlike the criticisms aimed at Katie Cassidy when that casting was announced, but prior to the pilot airing - the comments I saw aimed at Candace Patton were rooted in complaints about oooh, but Iris is white in the comics, not at Candace Patton's ability to play the part.   But post pilot, I think reactions may be more complicated than that, especially since the fan reaction doesn't seem to match what happened with Oliver/Laurel, where fans started turning against them in the pilot, and where, by the end of episode 5, a majority of fans were really against Oliver and Laurel, shipping Oliver and Joanna, Oliver and Thea, and Oliver and Felicity.  (And yes, I was there in the Arrow fandom right from the beginning - complaints about Oliver/Laurel started right after Amell and Cassidy were cast, and got a bit louder after SDCC and a lot louder after episode 5.) It didn't, of course, help that Arrow's script is basically written to get us to hate Oliver and Laurel.

 

That doesn't seem to be happening with Barry/Iris. The script doesn't keep telling us that the couple are terrible together, they seem to be considerably more popular, and at least to me work well together on screen. I especially liked their scene in the 9th episode, when Barry finally confessed his feelings and Iris quietly listened, but they've had other great scenes as well.  And one of the major arguments that I see made against them as a couple - the brother/sister one - doesn't seem supported by the script, since the show clarified that Barry had a crush on Iris before he moved in. Candace Patton has also stated that she doesn't see the relationship that way, and her acting supports that statement.

 

With that said, though, on screen, Barry lied to Iris for several episodes - about something that he was comfortable letting complete strangers who worked for shadowy government agencies that use torture know about. That, to me, was a huge problem. I'm not sure it can be entirely untangled from internalized racism, given that Barry had no problems with three white women knowing, but I don't think that saying "Hey, I have a problem with a relationship where one person is lying to the other one like that" is inherently racist - and that, not discomfort with Iris or her race, is the other major argument I've seen against Barry/Iris. 

 

And in episode 9 and the last two episodes, Flash presented another set of arguments against Barry/Iris - after Iris found out that Barry was in love with her, she still chose Eddie. After she found out Barry's secret and that in at least one alternative future, she and Barry got married, she still chose Eddie, even after Eddie, knowing the same thing, dumped her. That, to me, is a pretty convincing argument that in this timeline, Iris fell in love with Eddie, not Barry.  (Meanwhile, over on Arrow, Laurel did jump on Oliver after Tommy dumped her.)  And that's a reason not to ship them together - she fell in love with someone else.

 

(And while yes, this also applies to Barry/Caitlin, especially since Caitlin didn't just choose someone else, she married someone else, Caitlin also didn't choose Ronnie after finding out that Barry was in love with her.)

 

To be absolutely clear, I'll bold this next part: I like Barry and Iris together, and I'm good if they're endgame.  But I also don't have a problem with fans who have an issue with that ship, or prefer Barry/Caitlin or Barry/Linda or Barry/Cisco or Barry/Reverse-Flash (which I guess is a thing? I don't see it, but, ok), or Barry/Felicity (though I'd say that last group is probably out of luck.)

 

To repeat, Barry lied to Iris for months about something really important; Iris fell in love with another guy. What I think needs to be examined here is not fan reaction to that, but why Flash has chosen to write their interracial, comics canon couple this way. A nod to the secret identity comics trope? Maybe, but since the writers have all been on record as hating that trope, I have to question why they used it here. Or why they didn't instead choose to explore the falling in love with your best friend romance (since a lot of those are popular) or the trying to have a relationship when the two have very, very different levels of powers - how does Iris handle it? That sort of thing. I think that could have been really interesting, but for whatever reason, Flash didn't go that route, which is leading to conversations like this.

[Ruby25]

I like the idea about exploring a different angle, but I really think the answer to that is that the writers are lazy and figured the easiest way to dely them getting together is to just have Iris be with somebody else.

 

Unfortunately, I think it probably is that simple. But I would have loved to see them simply write the romance as falling in love with your best friend and that's it. Of course, doing that probably wouldn't allow them to delay the romance for two entire seasons without something as easy as third person obstacle.

 

I guess it's harder to write an couple that's interesting together (although I don't think it should be, I can think of lots of ways it'd be easy and fun to watch a committed couple on a superhero show- just look back at Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman and take a cue from that, for example).

[phoenics]

I think it's important to separate fans who dislike Barry/Iris for whatever reason, but aren't dumping on Iris or trying to erase her as a character. I've seen several fans who just happen to ship other couples and for some I can chalk it up to them simply rebelling against the main ship/canon.

The "tell" is usually in how they tend to attack the female in the pairing. With Laurel, there was a LOT of internalized SEXISM in their hatred of the character. Somehow she got the hatred, but Oliver skated off scott-free even though he was/is an asshole who deserves to get flayed alive. Contrast that with how fans perceive Scandal - Olivia isn't hated - FITZ is. No internalized sexism there. Even though I am not a huge Olitz fan, I acknowledge the massive chemistry and I still LOVE Olivia and I sometimes even have a soft spot for Fitz and usually I can feel something for Mellie. I'm not using shipping as a way to erase a character I don't like due to race/sex, etc..

That's where things tend to split with some fandoms - particularly fandoms where the lead of the show is not the female character. Scandal benefits from Olivia being the draw, and the STAR. It's about her. Her love interests are part of her story, but not the whole story. And Shonda at least writes them with depth. If you hate someone, it's probably earned.

Contrast that with Iris on The Flash. When the show first was cast with CP, many fans automatically started shipping SnowBarry as a way to ERASE Iris. And even the criticisms of the writing never fall on the writers - they land squarely on Iris as a character (even though her reactions to the foolishness were VALID), or on the actress herself (who has proven herself to be the BEST female actress on that show bar none - what she's done with the limited material she's gotten elevates her above everyone else, imo).

So the issue isn't just who you ship - it's if you use your shipping as a weapon to erase, minimize or marginalize a woman of color. Many of us can sniff that out in a heartbeat.

But beyond that - if the blame for the ship not being something you like lands on the woman in the ship, even if it's the male character who is the asshole - you might also want to examine your internalized sexism as well.

[CabotCove]

I think it's important to separate fans who dislike Barry/Iris for whatever reason, but aren't dumping on Iris or trying to erase her as a character. I've seen several fans who just happen to ship other couples and for some I can chalk it up to them simply rebelling against the main ship/canon.

The "tell" is usually in how they tend to attack the female in the pairing. With Laurel, there was a LOT of internalized SEXISM in their hatred of the character. Somehow she got the hatred, but Oliver skated off scott-free even though he was/is an asshole who deserves to get flayed alive.

So the issue isn't just who you ship - it's if you use your shipping as a weapon to erase, minimize or marginalize a woman of color. Many of us can sniff that out in a heartbeat.

But beyond that - if the blame for the ship not being something you like lands on the woman in the ship, even if it's the male character who is the asshole - you might also want to examine your internalized sexism as well.

 

EXACTLY the point! The OTT/extreme reaction is whats suspicious and telling, especially placing the blame on the more innocent party, usually female characters. 

 

To repeat, Barry lied to Iris for months about something really important; Iris fell in love with another guy. What I think needs to be examined here is not fan reaction to that, but why Flash has chosen to write their interracial, comics canon couple this way. A nod to the secret identity comics trope? Maybe, but since the writers have all been on record as hating that trope, I have to question why they used it here.

 

Im not aware the writers hate the trope, they use it because its a plot/stallling device. IMO The Flash has done a  better better job handing the trope for BI than other superhero shows (Smallville, Arrow for example)

1. Barry had a somewhat logical reason not to tell Iris. Her father, a man who also raised him told him not to tell her. 

2. They revealed the secret in season 1.

3. Iris figured it out on her own, instead of hearing it from someone who is not Barry. 

 

So to me, it shouldnt be made into a big issue  or a reason to entirely write Barry/Iris off. It seems too harsh IMO.

 

where fans started turning against them in the pilot, and where, by the end of episode 5, a majority of fans were really against Oliver and Laurel, shipping Oliver and Joanna, Oliver and Thea, and Oliver and Felicity.

 

I never saw an noteworthy shipping of Oliver/Joanna, if at all really. Fairly, they never  had scenes alone or talking parts in group scenes. 

Edited September 26, 2015 by WildcardC

[Goldmoon]

Lively discussion.  My sister has been fangirling over  "Barry Allen" for months so I finally watched the first twelve eps with her this weekend for her birthday.  Never watched Arrow but enjoyed Felicity on Flash.  Hated Lana, but not because she was portrayed by a non-white actress.  It was partly the appalling Sue-ness of Lana, but also by the actress being the worst actress who ever got a SAG card.  KK's dramatic scenes were always delivered with a smile and twitchy nodding, like she was a Bobblehead doll.  The combo was lethal.  CP is great and charming, and could bring so much to this role (Iris) if the writing for her improves.

 

I don't exclusively ship slash couples (Dean/Cas for the win, Dean/Kevin, Harry/Snape, etc.) but like to include everyone.  I am currently overly-invested in Bonnie/Damon over on TVD.  Barry needs to get some chemistry going with someone, male or female, black, white or purple, because I am not feeling him as sexy at all with anyone.

 

Stopped in to ask who the three gay actors are.  That was a comment up thread.  I got some serious sexy vibes between Wells and Harry Potter guy.  I don't suppose the CW would ever let anyone with a big part on screen ever be gay?

[Ruby25]

 

I don't exclusively ship slash couples (Dean/Cas for the win, Dean/Kevin, Harry/Snape, etc.) but like to include everyone.  I am currently overly-invested in Bonnie/Damon over on TVD.  Barry needs to get some chemistry going with someone, male or female, black, white or purple, because I am not feeling him as sexy at all with anyone.

 

Yeah, I know what you mean there. I think he has good chemistry in general with a lot of people, but when they've tried to pair him up with girls romantically I don't feel any kind of sexual chemistry at all. He seems like everybody's innocent friend or brother, and I think he needs to be able to generate some heat with a person at some point. In order to be believable.

 

The reason I think Iris is still, luckily, the best bet for him romantically is because she kind of has a sweet and innocent face like he does, and they both look so young. For that reason I think you can at least picture him with her more so than with the other characters. I don't know how he's going to fare with Patty Spivot, who's played by an actress who looks older, sexier and more mature (that already sounds like a mismatch for him though).

[driedfruit]

It's a shame they didn't race-bend Patty. Missed opportunity there. 

 

Stopped in to ask who the three gay actors are.  That was a comment up thread.  I got some serious sexy vibes between Wells and Harry Potter guy.  I don't suppose the CW would ever let anyone with a big part on screen ever be gay?

 

Haven't we all? 

[Chip]

This conversation seems to have drifted into the relationship area as opposed to the "lightning rods".

 

For relationship talk, we have this thread:

 

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/20320-relationships-speed-dating/

 

chip

 

P.S. I'm going to move some of the recent discussion to that thread.

[phoenics]

Okay - I have to get this off my chest.

I've been trying really hard to figure out what upset me so much about the S2 premiere and I think they just "Magical Negro-ed" and "SBW-ed" Iris. I mean, she basically goes around taking care of everyone else and fixing stuff and she never gets to grieve or even be SHOWN grieving.

Her bf (almost fiance) shoots himself to save the world and she doesn't even get a hug. And then she never has ANYONE even mention what happened with Eddie to her - except a clipped snippy comment from Barry as though Eddie dying was HER FAULT?

But we have to watch Caitlin grieve both when it happened (where was Iris' hug?) AND THEN 6 months later?

So Caitlin gets to be shown as vulnerable and soft, but Iris has to be the strong black woman who can't even get a damn hug after her fiancé kills himself to save everyone?

Dammit show.

I don't think the writers intended it - but ugh... that's what they wrote.

In reality - Caitlin's loss and Iris' were both used for Barry's man pain - but at least they showed Caitlin grieving even though we've seen her grieve half of last season. Not that I want to see a mopey Iris - but that was just a bit much... and it was glaring to me in comparison.

Edited October 7, 2015 by phoenics

[Marie F.]

I was also thrown off by Iris not being shown grieving; all she got was a very subtle, sad look at a picture of him.  It struck me early on in the episode when Barry hugged Caitlin and Iris seemed to put her hand on her shoulder to comfort her after Ronnie disappeared.  It was so weird because less than a minute before Iris was holding Eddie as he died in her arms.  Caitlin needed comforting after her husband disappeared, but Iris didn't after she watched Eddie's suicide?  Is Iris some kind of emotional superhero that doesn't need support, that doesn't need to be consoled? (rhetorical question)

[Trini]

I agree they could have shown more of how Eddie's death affected Iris (and maybe they will later*), but...

 

I've been trying really hard to figure out what upset me so much about the S2 premiere and I think they just "Magical Negro-ed" and "SBW-ed" Iris. I mean, she basically goes around taking care of everyone else and fixing stuff and she never gets to grieve or even be SHOWN grieving.

 

I don't think the 'Magical Negro' trope applies here, actually. Secondly, it's not true that she went around "taking care of everyone". (And I know you meant it as hyperbole.) She did help out Cisco and gave Barry a pep talk. We've wanted her to be involved with the team, so I don't think this is a problem.

 

 

Her bf (almost fiance) shoots himself to save the world and she doesn't even get a hug. And then she never has ANYONE even mention what happened with Eddie to her - except a clipped snippy comment from Barry as though Eddie dying was HER FAULT?

 

Well, Iris did have her moment in the finale; so now that Ronnie just got obliterated, Caitlyn got her moment in the premiere. As for the part I bolded, that's not what happened. Barry was reminding Iris that she's they both know Eddie was the real hero that day.

 

 

*However, they've got the 'it happened in the 6 months in Offscreensville' excuse.

[Oscirus]

I've been trying really hard to figure out what upset me so much about the S2 premiere and I think they just "Magical Negro-ed" and "SBW-ed" Iris

 

Iris has been a magical negro way before this. Hell, the girl had to give up her father because Barry needed one. As for everything else, tonight, she was basically a cheerleader so I can't really complain. I guess we could talk about her lack of emotion towards Eddie's death but it felt like Caitlin needed consoling more then Iris did since Caitlin was isolating herself while Iris was still with the group. I her reactions could have been addressed more but there wasn't enough time. This is Flash's show not hers.

[phoenics]

Well, Iris did have her moment in the finale; so now that Ronnie just got obliterated, Caitlyn got her moment in the premiere.

I'm sorry - but WHEN DID Iris get her moment in the finale? I'm not talking about showing grief alone - I'm also talking about showing her getting some comfort. I recognize that the singularity happened right then, but my point is - in the finale and the premiere, Iris can't even get a hug from her best friend? And then nothing about her pain is even mentioned except when Barry spits it out at her about Eddie in the present? He made it sound like "as you are well aware" was some kind of censure at her or something.

I'm reacting to his tone with her.

Something was off.

As for the part I bolded, that's not what happened. Barry was reminding Iris that she's they both know Eddie was the real hero that day.

The way it came out it was almost as if Barry was ANGRY at Iris for Eddie being the hero and not him. Go back and watch that scene - there is venom that comes out AT IRIS. Perhaps it was supposed to be at him, but GGustin directed that at Iris instead from what I saw. It was extremely jarring and I didn't like it.

Iris has been a magical negro way before this. Hell, the girl had to give up her father because Barry needed one. As for everything else, tonight, she was basically a cheerleader so I can't really complain. I guess we could talk about her lack of emotion towards Eddie's death but it felt like Caitlin needed consoling more then Iris did since Caitlin was isolating herself while Iris was still with the group. I her reactions could have been addressed more but there wasn't enough time. This is Flash's show not hers.

I'm well aware whose show it is, thank you. I'm just reacting to the tropes I saw. And wait - Caitlin needed more consoling? Iris watched her bf/fiance shoot himself and then he DIED in her arms yet - she got no hug from her so-called best friend, but Caitlin gets all of that? Their loves died within minutes of one another. So - no, not buying that.

And unless they plan on showing Iris tossing herself into her work and not really grieving, then they just off-screened all of it and gave all of those emotional beats to Caitlin. It sends a message - specifically because of the MN and SBW tropes. I noticed it and clearly others did too.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad to see her in the mix, but if she can only be a cheerleader in the mix to escape fandom rage then that's not really a win. I'd love her to be able to show a range of emotion like any other character. I happen to want her to be able to show emotion besides a cheerleader without the fandom coming down on her like a ton of bricks, but whatever.

I'll wait and see, but this pattern better not continue.

[Trini]

I guess we we just have different perspectives (which is a good thing!); I did re-watch, and I didn't see a problem with Barry's tone.

 

I think they are trying to do better with Iris, and I'd rather not paint every action/inaction in a negative light.

[Sakura12]

They are trying with Iris, but they are still keeping her as a background character without POV. Hopefully when Linda shows up, it'll give Iris more to do and maybe someone to talk to. 

 

I don't really care about Barry/Iris, I'll be happy if Iris gets a good storyline with Linda and her family. 

[Oscirus]

And wait - Caitlin needed more consoling? Iris watched her bf/fiance shoot himself and then he DIED in her arms yet - she got no hug from her so-called best friend, but Caitlin gets all of that? Their loves died within minutes of one another. So - no, not buying that

 

She was the only one who got it because it made sense within that part of the scene. When Eddie died they were in a rush given the what was happening at the time .  When he consoled Caitlin her fiancée just died and if I'm not mistaken that's where the scene ended. It's not like he purposely ignored Iris.

 

I'll withhold judgment as to how they treat her pain until they show more episodes. First episode and she's more worried about the city and getting the team back together. So it makes sense that she would push down whatever she's feeling due to the circumstances.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Oscirus

[Wynterwolf]

I'll withhold judgment as to how they treat her pain until they show more episodes. First episode and she's more worried about the city and getting the team back together. So it makes sense that she would push down whatever she's feeling due to the circumstances.

 

I'm kinda there too, but if she were actively suppressing, the people around her should have noticed and should be worried about her too... I didn't notice any 'looks of concern as she walking away and can't see' from anyone else. And if they were going that route, I would have at least expected a small moment like that from Joe.  

[wingster55]

I saw it from Joe at the end. Stein mentioned those they lost..she looked quite upset and Joe noticed and tried to provide comfort.

[Wynterwolf]

I saw it from Joe at the end. Stein mentioned those they lost..she looked quite upset and Joe noticed and tried to provide comfort.

 

That's not really what I was looking for though, that came across to me more as acknowledgment of her loss, but not to show that he was concerned for how she was (or wasn't) handling it.  It was more along the lines of how she reacted to the picture of Eddie at the station, simply wistful and sad but no indication to me of anything under the surface that could be carried forward into another episode.  But we'll see... sometimes how I view things in an ep changes with further context.  It's possible that we won't really see fallout for her until further into the season.   

[Oscirus]

I'm kinda there too, but if she were actively suppressing, the people around her should have noticed and should be worried about her too... I didn't notice any 'looks of concern as she walking away and can't see' from anyone else. And if they were going that route, I would have at least expected a small moment like that from Joe.

 

You're right.  It bugs me that they couldn't throw in one throwaway line where Joe or her supposed best friend ask if she's alright. But for the sake of sanity, I have to hand wave it as due to time constraints.

[Chicago Redshirt]

From the episode thread for "The Man Who Saved Central City":
 

Shonda Rhymes needs to come and do a clinic for these writers on how to write women and women of color. They are failing.

 

Even as a frequent viewer of Shonda's shows (80 percent of Grey's, 60 percent of Private Practice, all of Scandal and Murder) I don't necessarily think that she would offer an improvement on Iris or Caitlin.

 

I think that so far the powers that be have certainly had other characters walk on eggshells around Iris, lie to her, etc. Iris herself has been portrayed as smart, resourceful, admirable, funny and sometimes quirky. About the worst that can be said about her is that she's got normal human flaws (occasionally oblivious to the feelings of those around her, as well as her own, sometimes a little catty).

 

Shondra's characters, male and female alike, often have deep moral flaws, They are frequently liars, cheaters, manipulators, criminals and borderline psychopaths (or at least, extremely tolerant of psychopaths.)

 

I have no desire to see such characteristics superimposed on Iris or Caitlin. 

[jaytee1812]

 

Shondra's characters, male and female alike, often have deep moral flaws, They are frequently liars, cheaters, manipulators, criminals and borderline psychopaths (or at least, extremely tolerant of psychopaths.)

 

I have no desire to see such characteristics superimposed on Iris or Caitlin.

Me neither but I would appreciate Iris and Caitlin not being written as a series of tropes. And love or hate Shonda Rhimes shows the women on her shows, especially the women of colour, get to be more than a series of tropes.

[phoenics]

Me neither but I would appreciate Iris and Caitlin not being written as a series of tropes. And love or hate Shonda Rhimes shows the women on her shows, especially the women of colour, get to be more than a series of tropes.

THANK you. Chicago Redshirt - I understand what you mean, but it bothers me as a woman of color that women of color characters have to be written as nearly perfect human beings in order to get 1) people to identify with them and understand them and their perspective and 2) make sure fans don't piss all over them.

Writers with poc characters usually have two choices: 1) write them as perfect human beings or 2) write them as full human beings with flaws and virtues like anyone else. Well I guess 3 choices - the 3rd is to write them as a list of horrible stereotypes with no depth.

And at this point I'm leaving Caitlin out - because SHE gets to be flawed or more human while Iris is the one who seems trapped into being either 1) human and bashed like hell from this fandom or 2) the happy cheerleader who magically swallows her own PoV to cheer on everyone else and live for them.

I don't like that she has to be #2.

What I would prefer is for the writers to give her a real PoV and screw those fans who bash her. Let them stew in it. Stop coddling them and writing Iris without fear.

Edited October 9, 2015 by phoenics

[Ruby25]

I'm not totally convinced she'd be written any better if she were white, frankly. These shows have a really hard time making the iconic "love interest" role into a full person for some reason.

 

I feel like Lois Lane is the only comic book love interest who also gets to be her own person (at least that's how it is in the shows/movies she's been depicted), and I guess that's because she's so universally known as a character herself as WELL as being Superman's true love.

 

But tbh, this one should have been a lot easier for them, because Barry Allen is the only superhero with a longtime wife who is in on his identity, and her role in Flash comic books is definitely the most important person besides himself (it's in a Lois Lane vein, even if she herself may not be as universally known as Lois).

 

But when the show decided to isolate her with a pointless bf and keep her in the dark in the first season, they made the other people- Joe, Caitlin and Cisco, by default the more important characters, at least as far as the show functioned. That was HUGE mistake, imo, because now they've got to try to undo that and I don't even know if they really want to (the show LOVES those other characters, esp Joe being Barry's rock, so I don't see them being diminished now for Iris's sake).

 

It's disappointing that they keep making similar mistakes. One solution would be to make sure the love interest has a function besides being the love interest, even if you have to give them a non-comic book trait, like making Iris a techie herself- just so that she'd have a reason to always be part of the inner circle and useful to the hero, even when non-romance stuff is happening.

[driedfruit]

Smallville's Lois Lane and Iris are in a similar boat actually. The difference is, initially with Lois it made sense that she was an outsider as she was the only stranger in their group of friends and for the longest time, she was at best Clarke's third closest friend. Whereas Iris' place in the story as Joe's daughter and Barry's lifelong best friend should've had her at the thick of things. How she was kept out was the egregious, unrealistic part.  

 

I don't think turning Iris into a techie would solve anything. The writers would just ignore that the same way they ignored her blogging and journalism. Otherwise, an investigative journalist (or even a nosy meta-crime blogger) should've given them plenty of opportunity to make her relevant. She was well placed to work side by side with Joe, Barry and the police. She could've been the one spying on Wells instead of Mason. But the writers purposely cast her as an outsider, terminated her blogging and connection to Flash over three episodes, and rose her to a journalist in name only. Given that treatment, Iris the techie would sit around staring at her computer and do nothing useful to the plot, the same way Iris the journalist sat around looking at her computer screen.  

 

In Iris' case, I wonder if Candice being an unknown compared to JLM and Danielle factors into the writing. Because letting Iris into the forefront where, just by set up, she belongs would edge out Joe and Caitlin. But those actors have a higher standing, and by the time casting was done perhaps the writers had to find ways to push Iris to the side.

 

Not giving Iris a PoV is just another aspect to them not caring enough to write for her. However, I don't think the writers have anything against Iris specifically, but rather they're fine with sacrificing characters for the sake of ship baiting and romantic shenanigans. They let Caitlin express her PoV, but then have her flip flop, making her characterization inconsistent. To avoid that, they keep Iris a closed book, giving her a voice only when it's time to advance the plot.

Caitlin exploring her grief over Ronnie gives her a chance to move on with Jay. While Iris' lack of PoV stalls whatever is going on between Iris/Barry for a time when they want to move the pieces on that plot.

Edited October 9, 2015 by driedfruit

[SevenStars]

Smallville's Lois Lane and Iris are in a similar boat actually. The difference is, initially with Lois it made sense that she was an outsider as she was the only stranger in their group of friends and for the longest time, she was at best Clarke's third closest friend. Whereas Iris' place in the story as Joe's daughter and Barry's lifelong best friend should've had her at the thick of things. How she was kept out was the egregious, unrealistic part.

I don't think turning Iris into a techie would solve anything. The writers would just ignore that the same way they ignored her blogging and journalism. Otherwise, an investigative journalist (or even a nosy meta-crime blogger) should've given them plenty of opportunity to make her relevant. She was well placed to work side by side with Joe, Barry and the police. She could've been the one spying on Wells instead of Mason. But the writers purposely cast her as an outsider, terminated her blogging and connection to Flash over three episodes, and rose her to a journalist in name only. Given that treatment, Iris the techie would sit around staring at her computer and do nothing useful to the plot, the same way Iris the journalist sat around looking at her computer screen.

In Iris' case, I wonder if Candice being an unknown compared to JLM and Danielle factors into the writing. Because letting Iris into the forefront where, just by set up, she belongs would edge out Joe and Caitlin. But those actors have a higher standing, and by the time casting was done perhaps the writers had to find ways to push Iris to the side.

Not giving Iris a PoV is just another aspect to them not caring enough to write for her. However, I don't think the writers have anything against Iris specifically, but rather they're fine with sacrificing characters for the sake of ship baiting and romantic shenanigans. They let Caitlin express her PoV, but then have her flip flop, making her characterization inconsistent. To avoid that, they keep Iris a closed book, giving her a voice only when it's time to advance the plot.

Caitlin exploring her grief over Ronnie gives her a chance to move on with Jay. While Iris' lack of PoV stalls whatever is going on between Iris/Barry for a time when they want to move the pieces on that plot.

I agree with you. I think this is all about the writers lack of interest in writing for Iris, in giving her a pov. I hate it and if it continues I'm going to seriously consider not watching the show anymore because it will bugged me so much I won't be able to appreciate the writing for the other characters. I will be resenting any pov the writers give any character not name Barry if Iris doesn't get to have pov. That will take away my enjoyment.

At this point, I'm willing to give the writers a few episodes to show me what they are going to do with Iris as a character, not only as love interest or Joe usually forgotten daughter.

Some spoilers are giving me a little bit of hope.

[Xander]

Great. The usual Iris discussion is going on here. 

[Sandman]

Is Cisco being written as maybe bi? He was attracted to Lisa Snart (and I think he noted Bette's attractiveness as well), but has said "Ronnie, I love you, but...[please don't do X dumb thing]" at least once (maybe more?), and he remarked on how Jay Garrick filled out Barry's sweatshirt better than Barry.

 

Maybe he just appreciates hotness of whatever nature? Not that he's shown to have much of a love life in any case. I keep wanting to make a joke about getting a gay Vibe, but it's not coming out right (you should pardon the expression).

Edited October 14, 2015 by Sandman

[Chicago Redshirt]

I don't think that Cisco is supposed to be perceived as bi. Saying "I love you but..." to Ronnie doesn't imply sexual/romantic love. Although I suppose if you want to look for slashy interactions, Cisco and Piper probably had a few moments that would qualify. 

 

All that said, his off-hand comments about guys are a drop in the bucket compared to his canonical attractions to Bette, Glider, Canary, Peekaboo, and possibly others that I'm not thinking of. 

[phoenics]

Great. The usual Iris discussion is going on here.

Yes - because the usual marginalization of Iris is still an ongoing issue with the writers.

[Sandman]

All that said, his off-hand comments about guys are a drop in the bucket compared to his canonical attractions to Bette, Glider, Canary, Peekaboo, and possibly others that I'm not thinking of. 

 

True enough. I knew that the "I love you, but ... " was a pretty big stretch to make a genuine expression of romantic yearning, though I had forgotten about the Piper, actually. I do think Cisco is meant to be perceived as laid back in many ways (perhaps in all ways, in all corners of the multiverse?), including being free of any angst when it comes to noting the attractiveness of others. Also, it may be that he was picking up on Caitlin's attraction to Jay, as opposed to stating his own. His "Dude, your sweatshirt is tighter on him than on you" struck me as a little bit ... out of left field? Still, calling him bi is most likely an overstatement, but he does seem refreshingly un-judgmental.

[phoenics]

I guess I thought they had Cisco say that to point out - yet again - that Barry is kinda scrawny. They couldn't really have Iris or Caitlin do it because it's one thing to point that out to Barry alone (as Iris did when she was talking about Oliver's arms), but quite another to do it in front of a bunch of folks. Only a dude could really get away with that and be considered just ribbing. A woman doing it would make her a bish. Well, in comic fandom it would.

[Sandman]

Actually, I thought Barry might feel kind of stung, whoever said it, but your point is well made.

[Oscirus]

Is there a reason why the commercial that happened during the Supergirl show focused on the Barry-Patty romance as opposed to typical Flash stuff? Do the show's producers actually think that the only reason that females watch Flash is for the romantic subplots?