Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[Actionmage]

Posts about the good and bad gender representations on The Flash should be posted here!

 

Also, if someone wants to change the title, due to being cleverer, that's okay too. *g*

 

 

 

Starter topic question:  Would we be more, less or about the same level of frustrated if it was Det. Joelle West instead of  Det. Joe West insisting on every piece of information be kept secret and double secret from Iris?

[bettername2come]

I think if Joe were the mother and still making this choice, we'd be questioning her as a parent for holding Iris back and treating her like a child, but the effect wouldn't be sexist. And I think Joelle would still do it; he's overprotective of both Barry and Iris. I don't think the writers are purposefully being sexist, so much as they think superhero show=someone the hero loves must be kept from the secret.

That being said, this show needs more quality female characters. As testosterone-fueled as Arrow is, it's miles beyond this series in that regard.

[driedfruit]

I don't think mothers are exempt from sexism so for me it wouldn't make much difference, especially if she continued to use the language Joe uses, like referring to Iris keeping a smile on her pretty face as being a worthy objective over her being allowed information about everything going on around her. It would also depend on the differences in how she treated Iris and Barry.

[ribboninthesky1]

Yes, some of the dialogue is rather gendered, and it's hard to imagine a mother referring to her daughter in that way.  It's also hard for me to imagine one adult woman treating another adult woman in such a controlling, paternalistic way.  It's reasonable to have the protective instinct towards your child, no matter their age. The show went way overboard with it, though.     

 

And if I'm being honest, beyond the times that Iris is truly threatened, I rarely get the sense that Joe even LIKES his daughter, let alone loves her.  He so clearly prefers Barry, of whom I am no fan, and I have no idea why.  It would be nice if Iris' mother were alive and on the show, so she could have one parent who appears to give a damn outside of life-threatening situations.   

 

It's funny, there was discussion over why Iris is worthy of love and adoration, but I keep wondering what's so likable about Barry. I suspect being male, in addition to the protagonist, is a large part of why he's still overall well-liked, even when he's called out on his behavior.  His behavior seems to be easily separated from his character in the discussions here, and I don't separate the two.  I've thought he was an ass since very early in the season.  He's not much better than Oliver from Arrow, and I gave up on that show half-way into the first season because I couldn't stand Oliver. And if it was Iris pulling the shit that Barry does, I'd think the same of her.                

[Oscirus]

I think it would be even more problematic. It's bad enough that Joe is sexist enough to think that his daughter isn't capable of being a policewoman, imagine if it was another woman holding Iris down.  Have there even been policewomen on this show?

 

I think the Iris's problems have been highlighted quite well, but what about Caitlin? She's easily the most dispensable character at the lab. She's a doctor who doesn't realize that Wells heals quickly/ doesn't have atrophying legs and the only storylines that they've bothered to give her are all somehow related to Ronnie.

[Actionmage]

She's a doctor who doesn't realize that Wells heals quickly/ doesn't have atrophying legs

 

That is an excellent point! The only thing I can think of as to why Caitlin hasn't twigged to that nugget is: she doesn't dress the  man and he doesn't seem the type to roll out in shorts or anything that would alert folks. 

 

Caitlin stories:

*helps revive Barry and agrees to help him fight crime.

*looks for fiancé Ronnie after he reappears. After he's found and helped, Ronnie leaves her again. 

She decided to go out with Barry after he teased her about having no life, after Cisco did the same off-screen. She also went to Cisco's brother's birthday party as a gesture of friendship.  She, Felicity and Lyla dealt with Boomerang in the Arrowcave, so that doesn't count as a Caitlin story either.

 

She's a champ at supporting, but not a whole bunch has been learned about Caitlin. Geez.I think in trying to allude to the possibilities in Caitlin's future, the writers forgot to also give Caitlin things like friends, like friends who drop in to see how she is working for a guy who pretty much had to have halted whatever upward trajectory Caitlin was going in. Even if Wells wasn't an actual antagonist, she should have other science friends who are concerned that she's still with Wells.   I hope we find out why Wells hired Caitlin.  It was neat to see Wells appreciate Cisco, so I hope that there is the same coming for Dr. Snow.

[ribboninthesky1]

I think it would be even more problematic. It's bad enough that Joe is sexist enough to think that his daughter isn't capable of being a policewoman, imagine if it was another woman holding Iris down.  Have there even been policewomen on this show?

 

I think the Iris's problems have been highlighted quite well, but what about Caitlin? She's easily the most dispensable character at the lab. She's a doctor who doesn't realize that Wells heals quickly/ doesn't have atrophying legs and the only storylines that they've bothered to give her are all somehow related to Ronnie.

 

Good point about Caitlin. I always forget she's a doctor, especially since we see this knowledge in relation to Barry, and only Barry.  Then again, Wells has the advantage of centuries of knowledge, so I guess you can fanwank he could easily hide such things.  

 

Regarding Mama West vs Papa West, I also suspect that if it was Mama West trying to pull Iris' strings, Iris would have been written as more assertive and confrontational.  But as I said long ago, this is a Berlanti show, and his shows tend to be very male, "Daddy issues" focused. I remember this theme as far back as Everwood (which I liked).

 

I haven't seen the latest episode, but don't recall any female police officers.      

[driedfruit]

Nobody on the show has friends, but I do think it's a greater problem with Caitlin and Iris as they have no female support of any kind. The writers being mostly male probably don't realize the weight of that.   

 

As silly as Caitlin covering for Barry's psychosis, it was nice that the girls had each other's numbers and probably made coffee plans to talk. It's not a friendship, but it's the only casually friendly interaction we've seen between two women since the last time Felicity crossed over. 

[Cirien]

Re: Harrison Well's Legs

 

I sorta remembered this from  reading ages but from my googling I found out that physical therapy *is available* to help prevent that from occurring, (the leg muscles atrophying) Seeing how well defined his upper torso is (not that I've been paying attention or anything *shifty eyes*) Caitlyn may well assume that Harrison with all his money has someone come to help him with that. He has to have day staff, because I can't see him cooking. He needs the chair some of the time for real so it doesn't make me think badly of her for ignoring that

 

Link to the page: http://www.healthable.org/the-importance-of-phyical-and-occupational-therapy-after-an-accident/

Edited March 25, 2015 by Cirien

[quarks]

My main gender gripe from last night's episode had nothing to do with any of this, but rather Cisco's line to Lisa about how she didn't look like an engineer. I know that attractive women in science/engineering fields get that line all the time, but it still made me cringe.

[peachmangosteen]

My main gender gripe from last night's episode had nothing to do with any of this, but rather Cisco's line to Lisa about how she didn't look like an engineer. I know that attractive women in science/engineering fields get that line all the time, but it still made me cringe.

 

This so much. I hated that line. 

 

I still love the show, but the sexist tone is becoming so tiring. I still have hope TPTB can fix it, but I don't know if they even think they need to.

[wingster55]

Nobody on the show has friends, but I do think it's a greater problem with Caitlin and Iris as they have no female support of any kind.

 

I think that may be an issue now for Iris (and Caitlin) but not a major one...why does the support have to be female? Cisco and Caitlin support each other..that's not enough? 

[CabotCove]

Hot Flashes!

 

? 

It might be taken the wrong way. Sorry I cant think of a cleverer title right now though.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Conell

[Actionmage]

It might be taken the wrong way.

 

If folks want to fold some ageism into their gender discussions, I'm hep to that too.  *g*

 

Cisco and Caitlin support each other..that's not enough?

 

I understand about good male/female friendships; it's marvelous (as it were) that there is a healthy, warm friendship between Caitlin and Cisco.  It's that the usual friendship is shown in media as male/male. Having a Cisco/ Caitlin-style friendship between Iris and Linda would be wonderful because they don't have Barry to fight over. The ladies can have shop talk about editors and help each other on stories. Or just listen to the other and act like friends do. Which is still considered radical storytelling in 2015. Two women just talking about life stuff.

 

The lovely part is that it doesn't even have to be an A or B storyline. A couple of lines here or there and some staging is enough to show that the ladies are becoming friends.  Bringing the other a drink or some to-go food. Like when Wells and Cisco were watching Buster Keaton. You got a feeling that these two periodically do a movie watch there at the lab. There was an easiness between them, even when just sitting and watching a movie.  Iris, Caitlin and Linda deserve this too. Not every episode, but to be treated as more than female shaped story points. Especially when Captain Cold and Barry have more honest talks than Barry and Iris.

[Sakura12]

Which is still considered radical storytelling in 2015. Two women just talking about life stuff.

 

Too true, in TV land apparently only the mens can do that. Women must be catty and fight about men. 

 

That's why I'm really hoping for a Linda/Iris friendship. Linda dated Barry for a hot second and they didn't sleep together. I think after some time they could be friends. Or I could even go with Linda was friends with Mason and works with Iris to figure out what happened to him and what he was working on. 

[CabotCove]

Anyway, this thread is a good idea thanks for starting it.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Starter topic question:  Would we be more, less or about the same level of frustrated if it was Det. Joelle West instead of  Det. Joe West insisting on every piece of information be kept secret and double secret from Iris?

I think that I could see a parent of either gender wanting to be overprotective, even irrationally so as Joe has been.

 

However, I think that if we had Ira West rather than Iris, there'd be a far lower chance of this radical overprotectiveness and secrecy. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

Also, may I suggest that this be expanded to other topics like race, LGBT, etc. Maybe retitled something like "Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics"?

[AmandaPanda]

Love that title. Changed.

[Chicago Redshirt]

So to stick with gender for a bit, here's an incomplete rundown of the women we've been presented with:

 

Iris West: Described as fun, smart and so forth. Occasional flashes of bravery, as when dealing with Clock King and Girder. Somewhat boxed in as Barry's love interest, Joe's daughter, Eddie's live-in girlfriend. We're yet to see much of her as someone with agency as of the time of this post.

 

Caitlin Snow: Described as brilliant but cold, not having a life outside the lab. Described largely in terms of being Ronnie's fiancee and getting over her loss. No idea of what her interests are outside the lab.

 

Linda Park: Likeable enough, but sort of stalker-y. 

 

Nora Allen: We have basically no idea what she was like, other than she was a murder victim and of course as a mom, she loved Barry.

 

Tina McGee: Head of a rival lab, so presumptively brilliant. Except she hasn't surfaced to ask about what happened to the McGuffin that RF stole.

 

Bette San Souci (aka Plastique): Unable to control her power. Manipulated into trying to take out General Eiling. Presumed dead (although this is the comics, so she could be revived if they really wanted).

 

Peekaboo: Depicted as loving girlfriend who for some reason was attracted to a complete loser. The only person incarcerated in the Pipeline who was never portrayed as having tried to kill anyone, if I'm not mistaken, and whose power isn't inherently dangerous.

 

Lisa Snart: Literally portrayed as a honeytrap to lure Cisco in. She also doesn't mind doing some killing her own self.

 

I think if you compare them to the males on the show (Joe, Cisco, Eddie, Capt. Singh, the male villains, etc.), the guys get better treatment across the board. More scenes, more respect, more agency, etc.

 

By point of comparison: look at how Cisco's kidnapping by the Rogues played out versus Caitlin's. 

 

Cold and Heat Wave didn't bother asking Caitlin for anything, even though she was every bit as likely to know about Flash's true identity as Cisco. They didn't torture her, threaten her or interact with her really in much of any way. She made no attempt to escape. She was just bait.

 

By contrast, they made demands of Cisco and respected his abilities. He and his brother made a valiant escape attempt. And Cisco ultimately freed himself, albeit at the cost of Barry's secret. Cisco also gets a pass for revealing Barry's secret and weaponizing three murderers.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[Actionmage]

(Love the new title!)

 

Also? Our Heroes were supposed to just hand Bette/ Plastique over to Eiling because he's got some juice as a military general. Because every general is fine, upstanding and never lets the supposed power their given go to  their head.

 

By the same token, Dr. Tina McGee of Mercury Labs was blackmailed by a CCPD crime scene specialist? She just gave over the tachyon doohickey and we don't check in with her plotting to get it back or mounting a lawsuit against Harrison and her blackmailer? Who, iirc, guaranteed the device's safety?

 

I sort of fear for the animal rights arguments when Grodd is probably going to be dismissed due to Villainy. I mean I can see a straight line from the Pipeline to animal testing, but because those persons in the cages are criminals, their rights potentially aren't going to matter to the police. But then, that's probably all the problematic stories on shows I've loved speaking.

 

I agree with a lot of your post, Chicago Redshirt, but I'm not sure where you get Linda being stalker-y. 

 Big strokes, this is what I saw: Linda was  assertive and clear about wanting Barry to have her phone number. She was willing to have sexytimes. Linda asked Iris, his BFF, about him and got an odd response. Linda tried to break off further dates with Barry when he Ghost peppered at her workplace, making a scene.  She saw Iris and Barry being very hands-y with each other in front of Iris' live-in boyfriend.  When she and Barry talked in "Rogue Time", she clearly told him it wasn't working, no harm no foul.  (It hasn't been mentioned much in-show, but Linda's a sports reporter, so that's cool, in my book.)  I'm not saying my interpretation is definitive; I am curious about how she read as stalker-y to you.

 

I read a post that had the poster mentioning that Daddy Issues are sort of Berlanti's thing and It's What He Does. He's such a limited guy that he can't see past the limited and largely tone-deaf writing for his female characters? It's a crap "excuse" for the poor characterizations we're still getting 3/4 of the way through the season.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I think that Linda started out as a character with a lot of potential. She was bold. She knew what she wanted. She had achieved a great deal of success at her work.

 

What caused me to use the word "stalker" is that in her recent appearances, she has been unusually attached.

 

For example: when Barry said he had to go unexpectedly because of a police emergency, a normal person would have said to herself "That's weird." or "That's unfortunate." Maybe call Barry on his cell later to see what's up. What Linda did was to call his job and to ask around about him. That's a little much, in my book.

 

And in the most recent episode, when she's like "I want someone whose heart aches for me." I'm like, "Dudette, you've been on all of 2.5-3 dates!" That sort of talk seems over the top to me.

 

I hope that her breakup with Barry doesn't mean that she's gone from the show entirely.

[Actionmage]

What Linda did was to call his job and to ask around about him. That's a little much, in my book.

 

This?^  I forgot.  In the swirl around Iris and Barry during that, I forgot about Linda's weird "I called your work and..." ITA, that was too invested, as was the " your heart should ache" line.  If I was starting to date a crime scene dude(tte), I would think "Stoopid criminals! Blowin' up my date", but that's me. *g* 

 

I see your point, but don't fully agree. 

 

I hope that her breakup with Barry doesn't mean that she's gone from the show entirely.

 

Me, too. Not only is she another woman, but she's a bit more bubbly and light, which feels weird to say about the CW's "lighter" superhero show.

[Oscirus]

My thoughts on the women.

 

Iris West- Other then Eddie, probably the most frustrating character on the show. Her father and best friend show her little to no respect, her career path is ridiculous and other then episodes 5-7, her storylines have been laughable . Let's not even get into the psychology of making her a barista/waitress for the first half of the season. I'm sure that imagery was inadvertent.

 

Caitlin Snow- She started out fine as a no nonsense doctor, hell she's even had a decent evolution, but it feels like she's  now being set up to be a love interest for Barry. I'll also give the writer's points for toning down on her "mothering."  If only they'd give her a valuable job at the lab so that they could incorporate her in more storylines.

 

Linda Park- They only cast this part on the show for the comic book fans. She's served no purpose other then to make Iris jealous. Also, these last two episodes, her dialogue has been horrendous.  If they wanted to create a love triangle for Barry, why not use his current girlfriend from 52? She would've made a lot more sense.

 

Nora, Well's wife, Iris's mother- Women created just to advance the plot with their death and/or absence.

 

Tina Mcgee- Berlanti loves his stunt casting. The only reason why she was even on the show was so people can go "omg, it's the woman from the original Flash."

 

Plastique- Fairly sympathetic character who had the misfortune of being a part of the military when she got her powers.  I actually think she was well written and I liked that she died protecting Barry. 

 

Peekaboo-  a criminal who used her powers to help rob places in a less violent way and was rewarded with jail time under the lab for her efforts.  Most of her actions were based off her boyfriend which makes her motivations lacking.

 

Lisa Snart-  I'm actually interested in seeing what they do with her. She seems like she can be a good criminal with enough training. I don't like that they took away her comic book powers and in effect turned her into a female Captain Cold. But I'll take what I can get.

 

I would love to see a female villain mastermind who doesn't use her sex appeal show up on the flash. But sadly, I have a feeling that's not going to happen.

[driedfruit]

Iris West- Other then Eddie, probably the most frustrating character on the show. Her father and best friend show her little to no respect, her career path is ridiculous and other then episodes 5-7, her storylines have been laughable . Let's not even get into the psychology of making her a barista/waitress for the first half of the season. I'm sure that imagery was inadvertent.

 

I'd put the frustrating part as the dissonance between expectations given her importance to the comics and the fact that she's written like a tertiary character on the show. I don't think there are missteps with her characterization per se, but rather with her place in the narrative and the way the other characters treat her, which is mostly with indifference.

 

That's not to say I don't fault the writers for placing so little significance onto one of their two female regulars. At the same time, if Barry had no romantic interest in Iris, no one would be talking about her.

 

Linda Park- They only cast this part on the show for the comic book fans. She's served no purpose other then to make Iris jealous. Also, these last two episodes, her dialogue has been horrendous.  If they wanted to create a love triangle for Barry, why not use his current girlfriend from 52? She would've made a lot more sense.

 

This is CW, so of course it's how they introduced Linda. I don't like it, but if Malese returns, we're probably going to see her developed a bit more. I wouldn't surprised if we see Patty a few seasons from now.

 

Refusing to give the women too much significance is the prime problem with the show, and it ranges from the regulars or the guest stars. It's just part of their efforts in courting more male viewers.

[In2You]

 

Linda Park- They only cast this part on the show for the comic book fans. She's served no purpose other then to make Iris jealous. Also, these last two episodes, her dialogue has been horrendous.  If they wanted to create a love triangle for Barry, why not use his current girlfriend from 52? She would've made a lot more sense.

 

Tina Mcgee- Berlanti loves his stunt casting. The only reason why she was even on the show was so people can go "omg, it's the woman from the original Flash."

 

 

Re Linda: Not really since this isn't a show about Wally West. Most of the comic fans are wondering why they couldn't just bring on Patty or Daphne. 

 

Tina: Yeah and I highly doubt most people watching this show watched the other show or cared.

[Chicago Redshirt]

So among the gender issues in Rogue Time, and maybe it's just me:

 

Of course, there's Cisco's "You don't look like a structural engineer!"

 

Cisco's "Please don't kill me for kissing your sister" plea is sort of cute on one level, but the underlying notion is that Len has some sort of right of approval of who Lisa kisses. (Which is somewhat reinforced by "You're not daddy.")

 

There's also: why does Flash capture Lisa and take her gun rather than Cold? Answer: because the idea of Flash holding sexy Lisa is fanservice. Especially when Lisa sort of looks like she enjoys it.

 

Another issue is how Lisa is riding in a sidecar. Why doesn't she have a motorcycle of her own? (For that matter, why are they in motorcycles anyways rather than cars?)

[FurryFury]

(For that matter, why are they in motorcycles anyways rather than cars?)

 

Rule of cool?

[CabotCove]

Laurel was/is hated, because they wrote her horribly, she's not a great actress, and she made some really bone-headed moves. And from what I've seen, people adore Felicity, and she is the main squeeze/trapped in the dreaded triangle. It's because she's played by a likable actress, and for the most part, they've written her well.

The problem is that many times in these comic book shows, they take the time to make a lot of the men interesting but relegate the females as some kind of object of perfection. A perfect doll placed on a pedestal. If they give that woman an interesting story, people love her.

 

From what I have observed, certain archetype of female characters are widely and easily accepted, even enjoying popularity in fandom, the geek, sidekick kind of character like Felicity, Chloe Sullivan (Smallville), another Chloe on 24 etc. They are  usually loved for "representing" the "average" woman on the street, they are deemed to be involved and very vital to to the main plot, cant get the hot guy and seen as under-appreciated, the underdog, darkhorse....

 

Characters like Laurel, Iris, Lana who come originally as the leading ladies, according to what I have heard said,  they are "cheerleader/princess like type" who all the guys wants, too pretty/sexy, are the women who the hero/lead loves for no reason and are completely perfect,  such that "real" women cannot possibly live up to their standards. They are not usually easily liked or accepted in fandom because of those perceptions. So no its not as simple as being written well, other types of female character have to jump hoops against not only misogyny, but preconceived notions and perceptions about the kind of character they are and what they have to offer to the show. And with ethnic minority characters like Iris, there is likely a race factor added in some cases.

 

Yes Felicity is in a triangle this season, but I doubt she gets the same amount and intensity of backlash that a character like Iris/Laurel would/does for being in a similar situation. She may actually get a bit more sympathy and defense. 

Edited March 28, 2015 by Conell

[driedfruit]

From what I have observed, certain archetype of female characters are widely and easily accepted, even enjoying popularity in fandom, the geek, sidekick kind of character like Felicity, Chloe Sullivan (Smallville), another Chloe on 24 etc. They are  usually loved for "representing" the "average" woman on the street, they are deemed to be involved and very vital to to the main plot, cant get the hot guy and seen as under-appreciated, the underdog, darkhorse....

 

Characters like Laurel, Iris, Lana who come originally as the leading ladies, according to what I have heard said,  they are "cheerleader/princess like type" who all the guys wants, too pretty/sexy, are the women who the hero/lead loves for no reason and are completely perfect,  such that "real" women cannot possibly live up to their standards. They are not usually easily liked or accepted in fandom because of those perceptions. So no its not as simple as being written well, other types of female character have to jump hoops against not only misogyny, but preconceived notions and perceptions about the kind of character they are and what they have to offer to the show. And with ethnic minority characters like Iris, there is likely a race factor added in some cases.

 

Exactly.

 

And casting can't be to blame because the exact same thing happens in popular book fandoms (Ginny Weasley, Denna from Kingkiller Chronicles, Egwene al'Vere, Elayne Trakand...). 

Edited March 28, 2015 by driedfruit

[XtremeOne1]

From what I have observed, certain archetype of female characters are widely and easily accepted, even enjoying popularity in fandom, the geek, sidekick kind of character like Felicity, Chloe Sullivan (Smallville), another Chloe on 24 etc. They are  usually loved for "representing" the "average" woman on the street, they are deemed to be involved and very vital to to the main plot, cant get the hot guy and seen as under-appreciated, the underdog, darkhorse....

 

 

 

I don't get why people think Felicity represents the average woman. Because she wears her hair up and wears glasses? I put her more in the Lana category, especially the most current Felicity.  In the beginning, I'd say personality wise, yes, she was the audience surrogate. But now? It's why I never wanted Ollicity. I feared what it would do Felicity :(.

Edited April 1, 2015 by XtremeOne1

[Actionmage]

Refusing to give the women too much significance is the prime problem with the show, and it ranges from the regulars or the guest stars. It's just part of their efforts in courting more male viewers.

 

As weird as it seems, I think the writers/TPTB/the network have to be thinking in a binary. "In order to get more male-owned eyeballs, we must do X. If we don't, then we will have female-owned eyeballs! We need more guy eyes!"  Instead of writing a fun show that has a good balance of realistic-enough characters ( it is a comic-book show) and cool CGI and exciting action sequences, whoever is concerned about what males theoretically want to watch in their comic-book action-adventure series.  The math apparently goes: Female characters take away from male characters= only/majority fans/viewers.  So the male characters are packed in like sardines and what women are there are sort of cyphers, unless they and the audience is lucky. 

 

Has there been a character of size on the show?  If not, is the excuse "It's the CW" really an excuse?  A man that can run so fast that he can pass through time is more believable than a positive character that isn't a runway model?  While Criminal Minds Penelope Garcia has fans split on how they feel about the character, she's essentially a Felicity, just with more quirk and less meandering babbling when nervous. The actress has curves and a detailed background.  Surely there can be a lady or gent that is not Pixie Stix thin and can be a good recurring character. A cop/scientist/researcher at the Picture News?

[Oscirus]

Characters like Laurel, Iris, Lana who come originally as the leading ladies, according to what I have heard said,  they are "cheerleader/princess like type" who all the guys wants, too pretty/sexy, are the women who the hero/lead loves for no reason and are completely perfect,  such that "real" women cannot possibly live up to their standards.

 

I would actually disagree with most of that statement. Yea, Lana fits into that category but the other two are different animals  altogether.

 

Laurel comes across as Oliver being out of her league and then she went from a tragic love interest to a harpy thanks to the some of the actress's choices.  If anything,  Laurel is a fairly realistic type a personality female. Which is why Felicity is so much more popular on arrow. Before this season, Felicity was pretty much everything the comic book audience wanted in a woman.

 

Iris, on the other hand represents the girl next door. She's approachable, low-maintenance  and very complimentary.  Her problem lies in the fact that her costars don't take her seriously so why should the audience.

 

Has there been a character of size on the show?  If not, is the excuse "It's the CW" really an excuse?  A man that can run so fast that he can pass through time is more believable than a positive character that isn't a runway model?  While Criminal Minds Penelope Garcia has fans split on how they feel about the character, she's essentially a Felicity, just with more quirk and less meandering babbling when nervous. The actress has curves and a detailed background.  Surely there can be a lady or gent that is not Pixie Stix thin and can be a good recurring character. A cop/scientist/researcher at the Picture News?

 

Sadly, on TV, people of size aren't really used unless their comic reliefs, or their superpowers calls for them to be big. I will admit that on this show that everybody is aesthetically pleasing. But that's a symptom of tv and it's casting policies in general not just on this show/channel.

 

Did Caitlin do anything of note tonight other then hugging Barry's dad? Maybe it's just me, but ever since she finally admitted to being over Ronnie, she's become a lot less useful.

[Princess Lucky]

Man, this last episode sure was a mess. Allow me to quote from my own post in the episode thread, so I can then expand on my point:

 

And the less said about Iris being kept in the dark the better. Gross. Pointless. Especially if there's any type of reset. I almost wish Eddie had told her the truth right here, but I guess Joe being her father overrides Eddie's authority. Because that's how it goes with women, no? The highest-ranking man in their life gets to decide? Father trumps live-in boyfriend? That's what I got, at least, when Joe made that “wtf” face after Eddie (bless him) said he was not OK with lying to Iris. Joe was like "who the hell are you to make that decision for my smart,  independent daughter? I'm the one who gets to decide for her, d'oh!". Ridiculous.

That truly was ridiculous. Eddie can find out, that's fine, I guess because Joe trusts him. But does he trust his own daughter? His precious princess? Nope. And even Flash aside, the one time Iris actually dares to be inquisitive (regarding Mason), Joe and Barry make Eddie lie to her, all but patting her on her precious head, all "now now Iris, don't worry your pretty little head, it's fine, go back to your love triangle where you belong". Tragic.

 

Did Caitlin do anything of note tonight other then hugging Barry's dad? Maybe it's just me, but ever since she finally admitted to being over Ronnie, she's become a lot less useful.

Also tragic. The only saving grace for Caitlin (writing-wise, I mean) is her interaction with Cisco, just like the only decent thing Iris had going were her fun interactions with Mason Bridge, which is now done.

 

But that's the problem, isn't it? Women on this show (and on a lot of shows) are always defined by the men in their lives. Iris is the daughter (to Joe), the faux-sister (to Barry), the girlfriend (to Eddie), the object of desire (to Barry again). But who is she independently of those men? Not in terms of her personality (which Candice has thankfully embellished), but in terms of her purpose. Her actions. Why does she do anything? The writers remember she's a wannabe reporter or that she wants to expose the Flash whenever it fits the plot, and that's that.

 

And Caitlin, who had a better chance at being well-rounded because she wasn't a love interest, only had something to do when it involved Ronnie. But no, the writers can't give depth to Caitlin like they do to Cisco, even though they're equals and serve similar purposes. Cisco gets to have a father-son relationship with Wells and he gets to investigate with Joe and he gets to be kidnapped by Cold because his skills are required (whereas Caitlin got kidnapped so she could scream prettily? Like, at least they could have had Cold and co. need medical attention, something!), he gets to have a family and he gets to be a person. Caitlin is the cute girl who hugs people. Sigh.

 

I also lament the lack of older women on the show. Couldn't, like, the Captain be a woman? Or a villain? We've only had Tina McGee, for all of 3 (awesome) minutes.

 

In times like these I'm glad for Person of Interest. That show and The Flash are my two favourite shows on network television, but The Flash disappoints when it comes to women. On Person of Interest there are tons of female characters who are fully formed, highly skilled (and not in a "fanboy wet dream" kind of way), who are a variety of ages and races and shapes and sizes, and who are playing characters which on most other shows would have been men. At least I have that.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I don't get why people think Felicity represents the average woman. Because she wears her hair up and wears glasses? I put her more in the Lana category, especially the most current Felicity.  In the beginning, I'd say personality wise, yes, she was the audience surrogate. But now? It's why I never wanted Ollicity. I feared what it would do Felicity :(.

Perhaps "average" is the wrong word, because of course there is little that is average about Felicity, particularly compared to real-world people.

 

You may be familiar with the Madonna/whore dichotomy. The idea is in some media women are shunted into one of those two categories: either super good,saintly, perfect and pure or wicked, lustful, deceitful, etc.

 

What a lot of comic books and comic book shows feature is a slight twist on that. 

 

You have characters that are Madonna-ish in that they are put on a pedestal and longed for by the hero, even or especially without much objective indication of what makes them so wonderful, and with the hero acting irrationally because of their feelings toward them: your Lanas, Laurels, and in this show Iris.

 

And then you have characters that are portrayed as somewhat to extremely interested in a romantic relationship with the hero, objectively supportive of the hero, willing and interested in spending time with the hero, actually or potentially emotionally intimate with the hero in a way that other characters aren't and yet for whatever reason the hero does not fully reciprocate these feelings or at any rate is not willing to act on them: your Chloes, Felicities, and in this show Linda and Caitlin.   

 

I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a fantasy for the benefit of guy viewers (hey, you could have an awesome, sexy, intelligent woman interested in you that YOU get to friend-zone) or if it supposed to speak to women viewers (doesn't it suck, ladies, when the coolest guy doesn't seem to like you in that way) or both.

[Actionmage]

And then you have characters that are portrayed as somewhat to extremely interested in a romantic relationship with the hero, objectively supportive of the hero, willing and interested in spending time with the hero, actually or potentially emotionally intimate with the hero in a way that other characters aren't and yet for whatever reason the hero does not fully reciprocate these feelings or at any rate is not willing to act on them: your Chloes, Felicities, and in this show Linda and Caitlin.

 

I am going to have to strongly disagree with the above. If you are talking Madonna/whore dichotomy, and you already named Iris as the Madonna example, the next examples are going to be whores. That is totally not what Chloe, Felicity, Linda, or Caitlin are. At all.

 

True, the whore side of that binary is supposed to be a female that is either voracious in her sexual appetites or uses her feminine wiles to keep Good Men from Doing Good Things or to Make Good Men Bad. But none of the four characters listed are like that.

 

They are comfortable in their sexuality to various degrees. They are attracted to attractive people. Some may be less shy than others when it comes to asking for a date- as opposed to waiting for someone to ask them out. All of these females listed are supportive to the heroes in question. They do not try to stop Good from being done, but yes, those who know about the hero's duties worry about the hero's safety and well-being.

 

Felicity has urged more than cautioned Oliver in his mission. Caitlin, while not fully on-board in the early going, has become a firm and dedicated member of Barry's support team. Linda has only wanted to date Barry and tried to call off that aspect of their relationship. She has no knowledge of his heroing. She actually was left at Joe's house, alone, due to a Flash emergency, so the opportunity of sex wasn't even an obstacle for Barry.

 

I believe there has been a misunderstanding of the term.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I am going to have to strongly disagree with the above. If you are talking Madonna/whore dichotomy, and you already named Iris as the Madonna example, the next examples are going to be whores. That is totally not what Chloe, Felicity, Linda, or Caitlin are. At all.

 

True, the whore side of that binary is supposed to be a female that is either voracious in her sexual appetites or uses her feminine wiles to keep Good Men from Doing Good Things or to Make Good Men Bad. But none of the four characters listed are like that.

 

They are comfortable in their sexuality to various degrees. They are attracted to attractive people. Some may be less shy than others when it comes to asking for a date- as opposed to waiting for someone to ask them out. All of these females listed are supportive to the heroes in question. They do not try to stop Good from being done, but yes, those who know about the hero's duties worry about the hero's safety and well-being.

 

Felicity has urged more than cautioned Oliver in his mission. Caitlin, while not fully on-board in the early going, has become a firm and dedicated member of Barry's support team. Linda has only wanted to date Barry and tried to call off that aspect of their relationship. She has no knowledge of his heroing. She actually was left at Joe's house, alone, due to a Flash emergency, so the opportunity of sex wasn't even an obstacle for Barry.

 

I believe there has been a misunderstanding of the term.

To be clear, I said that the shows have a "slight twist" on the Madonna/whore.  Perhaps to avoid the connotations of Madonna/whore, I should have said something more like Princess/Bestie.

 

In the context of these shows, the "Madonnas"/Princesses can/do have sex. Lana had sex with (I'm presuming) Jason and Lex and Clark. Laurel has had sex with both Ollie and Tommy. And Iris has had sex with Eddie.

 

So it's not really about sex. It's about actual yearning and intimacy.

 

Lana, Laurel and Iris are all idealized by their hero counterparts. But in reality, these women are not tightly involved in the hero's life and work, despite all the emphasis of their supposed importance and wonderfulness. The Princess is not available to date the hero for reasons. And often (not in the case of Iris) these Princesses do some pretty questionable things that the heroes overlook or minimize, if not outright accept.

 

By contrast, the Bestie is there side-by-side with the hero. Clark would have not gotten very far in most episodes without Chloe's support. Same with Ollie and Felicity, and Barry and Caitlin. The Bestie is portrayed as having a good deal of romantic interest in the hero. But for whatever reasons, the hero shows little interest in pursuing a relationship with an attractive, smart, emotionally available woman, because Princess.

 

Hopefully that gets my point across more clearly without the loadedness that comes with Madonna/whore.

[phoenics]

In times like these I'm glad for Person of Interest. That show and The Flash are my two favourite shows on network television, but The Flash disappoints when it comes to women. On Person of Interest there are tons of female characters who are fully formed, highly skilled (and not in a "fanboy wet dream" kind of way), who are a variety of ages and races and shapes and sizes, and who are playing characters which on most other shows would have been men. At least I have that.

I doubt we want to laud Person of Interest too much after the way they treated the Carter character - that hits another lightning rod topic that gender alone cannot resolve. I'm still fuming about that show and SO HAPPY that Empire was such a hit. Take that PoI! I laughed when their ratings dropped after they killed Carter off.

[CabotCove]

Lana, Laurel and Iris are all idealized by their hero counterparts. But in reality, these women are not tightly involved in the hero's life and work, despite all the emphasis of their supposed importance and wonderfulness. The Princess is not available to date the hero for reasons. And often (not in the case of Iris) these Princesses do some pretty questionable things that the heroes overlook or minimize, if not outright accept.

That is not true (anymore) in Laurel's case, she is the Black Canary who now works side by side with the main hero of the show. But you see some fans who have hated her for being "uninvolved" before, now refuse to accept and adapt to this new status quo, instead addressing her as if she is still an outsider and in the dark despite these new developments. And likely one day Iris is going to know of the secret and will likely be more involved with Flash and the team. I wouldnt be surpised if with some she is still treated as if she is still in her season 1 status quo, not knowing the secret and being mostly uninvolved.

 

Why? From what I gather.

1. Because some people want to have excuses to continue hating these characters, it almost becomes a catch 22 situation.  Damned if you do, damned if you dont, cant win.

2. To protect characters like Chloe/Felicity/Caitlin, who would have originally assumed the role of the hero sidekick and confidant. Which in turn get them fan loved/favorited, so when the leading lady start to develop more and getting a piece of the "precious" role later, they get hated for displacing the geek sidekick girl who worked so hard to "make the hero". That what happened with Smallville, and currently on Arrow. 

 

The  thing is shows evolve and characters change, why continue to view a character for what they used to be , a character that is a big part of the plot today may not remain like that tomorrow, in upcoming seasons. Vice versa for those that start of small, with more development they can change. So I dont get why these character are given so much hard time for what they start off as, that doesn't mean that's the end point.

 

And then you have characters that are portrayed as somewhat to extremely interested in a romantic relationship with the hero, objectively supportive of the hero, willing and interested in spending time with the hero, actually or potentially emotionally intimate with the hero in a way that other characters aren't and yet for whatever reason the hero does not fully reciprocate these feelings or at any rate is not willing to act on them: your Chloes, Felicities, and in this show Linda and Caitlin.

 

Yet these characters end up scoring heroes anyway, in Felicity's case she got 3! to reciprocate. Caitlin has Ronnie. 

I dont think Linda quite fits in this archetype, she has never been a hero helper among other reasons.

 

I would actually disagree with most of that statement. Yea, Lana fits into that category but the other two are different animals  altogether.

 

Im not saying thats what I think, Im saying thats what I have seen them being stereotyped or generalized as, due to their comic status and role in a superhero series.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Conell

[Oscirus]

A few other things I noticed this episode. Maybe I'm just being sensitive but it fits with the them of this topic so I'll post my thoughts here.

 

After being told that Mason was in Brazil, Iris goes to finish dinner while the men folk continued to talk about important things. That just screamed gender roles to me.

There was also the comment to Iris from the trickster at that event. Your audience knows she's hot , you don't need to have the villains drool over her to get your point across.

 

I also feel as if having an openly gay captain should be a bigger deal then this show makes it out to be. I can't imagine that the environment in Central City is much different then it is elsewhere in the US.

[driedfruit]

After being told that Mason was in Brazil, Iris goes to finish dinner while the men folk continued to talk about important things. That just screamed gender roles to me.

 

The dinner thing bothers me a lot (maybe more than it should) since this is the third time a variation of it has happened (1.05, 1.14, 1.17). The first time she had dinner waiting for Joe after Barry just dumped her for not obeying him about the blog, I shrugged it off. But she doesn't even live in that house anymore so the choice has become weirdly glaring. 

Edited April 2, 2015 by driedfruit

[Chicago Redshirt]

I admit that Arrow has moved away in its current season from having Laurel as a) uninvolved from the hero's work and life and b) the specialest special who ever specialed. There are still some elements, though, where we are supposed to applaud Laurel for doing questionable things or ignore them (such as actively deceiving her father over Sara's death and going out as a vigilante well before she is ready). They have also had Ollie's attitude to her change from previous seasons. In the first two, he admitted having a blind spot for Laurel. Now it seems like he largely tolerates her and I've seen no signs that he wants to be in a romantic relationship with her. Whether this is a result of the Arrow writers taking in fan backlash to the character or love of Olicity, or their changing attitudes to writing women, or their planned evolution of the Black Canary, or a function of the relationship between Stephen Amell and Katie Cassidy, I have no idea.

 

It's also possible for women to be featured and not be treated either as a Princess or a Bestie or anywhere in between. Excluding the women related to Ollie, Arrow also had such characters as Ravager, Huntress and that detective he dated who don't fit really in either category.

 

And yes, the Besties seem to end up with a happily ever after, at least in these three examples. Chloe ended up with Smallville Ollie, Felicity currently has Ray, and one would assume Ronnie might be in Caitlin's future somehow. But the way that IMO it is portrayed is as a consolation prize. I have no doubt in my mind that Chloe would still be with Clark if she could, but he's not available. In the latest episode of Arrow, it was basically confirmed that Felicity still loves Ollie and is only with Ray because Ollie is, in Felicity's words, "terminally unavailable." Caitlin's interest in Barry is sort of underdeveloped compared to the others. But the fact that she's staying in Central City with Barry instead of going with Ronnie suggests to me a little about where her heart might be.

 

While Linda hasn't been involved in any Flash-related stuff directly, she clearly wanted to be involved in Barry's life much more than Iris does and seems more keyed into Barry's feelings (and Iris's) than Barry or Iris are. 

Edited April 2, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[Actionmage]

The dinner thing bothers me a lot (maybe more than it should) since this is the third time a variation of it has happened

 

While I am not upset about Iris cooking one dinner a week at her dad's house, where apparently Eddie is welcome so it's a family dinner, I can see where you might. 

 

Is it part of the gender essentialist presentation of Iris the show has been happily perpetuating? Since she is treated in-show as seemingly casual about her studies and job ( which is weird, as Iris is somewhere between Masters and Doctor academic-wise), it adds to her "little woman"-seeming.

 

Is it that we have seen her in food service while the guys and Caitlin have their adventures?  We have yet to have the men do/talk about any food prep to the degree Iris has. Barry and Joe have only been shown getting to-go pizza. As did Dr. Stein. Why can't Joe or Barry or Eddie have a special dish or be commented on as being good in the kitchen too. Strangely, I didn't get the impression that Clarissa Stein stayed home and cooked, though I'd bet she could cook/ have a special dish she makes.  Cooking: not just for lady characters, Show.

 

As to the food after Barry getting her angry?  If the meal was chicken fried steak? Meat looked like Barry, no doubt. Cooking can be therapeutic. *g*

 

It just doesn't seem weird to me that she has a family meal at Joe's. The meals may come to an abrupt end sooner than later, so it may be moot.

 

I also feel as if having an openly gay captain should be a bigger deal then this show makes it out to be. I can't imagine that the environment in Central City is much different then it is elsewhere in the US.

 

Is it a big deal on Brooklyn Nine-Nine?  It probably comes up as conversations/ situations deem. The same should go here or on any show, imo. They are people doing their jobs.

[bettername2come]

We have yet to have the men do/talk about any food prep to the degree Iris has. Barry and Joe have only been shown getting to-go pizza.As did Dr. Stein. Why can't Joe or Barry or Eddie have a special dish or be commented on as being good in the kitchen too. Strangely, I didn't get the impression that Clarissa Stein stayed home and cooked, though I'd bet she could cook/ have a special dish she makes.  Cooking: not just for lady characters, Show.

 

To be fair, we did have Joe cooking spaghetti and inviting Iris to stay for dinner once (when she gets the job at Picture News). Unbalanced still, but it happened.

[phoenics]

Caitlin's interest in Barry is sort of underdeveloped compared to the others. But the fact that she's staying in Central City with Barry instead of going with Ronnie suggests to me a little about where her heart might be.

You might want to go check out the spoiler thread... or not...

And could someone refer me to the episode that SnowBarry fans are supposed to love (coming up)? Is it the episode with the imposter?

[driedfruit]

And could someone refer me to the episode that SnowBarry fans are supposed to love (coming up)? Is it the episode with the imposter?

 

Yes, 1x19 is the one they teased. The fan theory seems to be that Barry as an imposter lays a kiss on Caitlin or something of the like. It's gonna be another cheat episode and potentially where some of the more shocking moments in the Paley promo takes place.

Edited April 3, 2015 by driedfruit

[BPOX]

While I am not upset about Iris cooking one dinner a week at her dad's house, where apparently Eddie is welcome so it's a family dinner, I can see where you might. 

 

Is it part of the gender essentialist presentation of Iris the show has been happily perpetuating? Since she is treated in-show as seemingly casual about her studies and job ( which is weird, as Iris is somewhere between Masters and Doctor academic-wise), it adds to her "little woman"-seeming.

 

I have a wait and see attitude about Iris.  She's clearly a main character, so I think it's reasonable to expect a lot of trial and growth over time. I really like Iris's gentle manner, and the fact she seems radiates earnest warmth. It's really appealing, and a good style match with Barry. Her vibe is on the traditional feminine side for sure, but if the show can show me how she learns and makes that style work for her to make her a good reporter, and hopefully heroic if not powered... Well, I think that could be really interesting. Think of Carol on the Walking Dead. Initially she just seemed like a bit of helpless doormat, and now she's creepy, manipulative, dangerous, and a tiny bit of a loose cannon (which are all good things to me in for that show) as well as still empathetic, and loyal. I'm not saying I want Iris to go the way of Carol, but I don't think "strong female character" needs to mean tough talking dame. I'm hopeful that the endless protecting Iris from herself thing will come to a head and we'll see her assert herself, not just once but more and more. "Beware the Fury of a Patient [Wo]Man" if you will.

Edited April 3, 2015 by BPOX

[Actionmage]

but I don't think "strong female character" needs to mean tough talking dame.

 

Neither do I.  I was trying to understand the op's uneasiness with Iris cooking.

[driedfruit]

I love Iris for not being a stereotypical "strong female" and I'm even fascinated about where her character is going when she finds things out. I just feel uncomfortable about the way her domestic feminine side is so overtly displayed in the context of her being treating in such a demeaning sexist way. If she was cooking for Barry and Joe in scenes like when she got the call for her new job, that wouldn't bother me at all.

[phoenics]

Yes, 1x19 is the one they teased. The fan theory seems to be that Barry as an imposter lays a kiss on Caitlin or something of the like. It's gonna be another cheat episode and potentially where some of the more shocking moments in the Paley promo takes place.

Hmmm I have a feeling it's gonna be the other way around... Barry has to have some way of knowing it's an imposter.

I love Iris for not being a stereotypical "strong female" and I'm even fascinated about where her character is going when she finds things out. I just feel uncomfortable about the way her domestic feminine side is so overtly displayed in the context of her being treating in such a demeaning sexist way. If she was cooking for Barry and Joe in scenes like when she got the call for her new job, that wouldn't bother me at all.

Yes - I really do like that Iris is very soft and feminine - because, let's be honest, black women characters are often portrayed as almost asexual (with the exception of Olivia and Annalise - but that's because of Shonda Rhymes). Usually she's the sassy sidekick or the ignored friend who never gets a love interest.

I love it that they have Iris breaking that mold.

My only issue is really that the writers made sure she avoided some tropes, but shoved her really hard into some others that are marginalizing the character and at the same time kinda erasing her relevance on the show.

How many episodes will we get this season?