Killian Jones/Captain Hook: One Handed Pirate With A Drinking Problem

[Dianthus]

The thing that really gets me is when someone from a certain subset of the fandom (cough*SwanQueen*cough) tries to say that Hook is Absolutely Hands-Down The Worst Evah. Lily Sparks over @ TV.Com really outdid herself in her last recap when she went all CAPS LOCK crazy over Hook's confession about killing the sailor who drank the Captain's wine. That's gotta be the most hypocritical thing I've ever read outside of politics. She conveniently forgot to mention that it was in fact a confession. In the comment section, someone made a joke about the scene with Regina using the dagger to control Emma (which Lily herself cited as pro SQ), saying she should've waited until they were somewhere more private (Hur Hur). If Hook had that sort of power over Emma, you just know they'd be running around screaming like their hair was on fire. I wish I could view it more philosophically, but it really chaps my hide!

Haters gonna hate, but this is beyond ridiculous.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Lily Sparks over @ TV.Com really outdid herself in her last recap when she went all CAPS LOCK crazy over Hook's confession about killing the sailor who drank the Captain's wine.

Regina has murdered for less...

Edited November 29, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

Regina has murdered for less...

 

Such as the groom who dared to get married on a day when Regina particularly had the sads.

[Dianthus]

My point exactly. Regina murdered a guy, at his wedding, in front of his loved ones, because she was having a crappy day! Where, I ask you, is the perspective?

Stealing is wrong (ok, pirate, but still); stealing from your captain is wrong and stupid.

[mjgchick]

Hook broke my (and Emma's) heart terribly.

[Shanna Marie]

Even if he does come out of this in any way close to honorable, like some kind of sacrifice that saves the day, we have to be in for some serious PTSD for a guy who was already consumed with self-loathing. He'll hate himself for what he said to Emma, for everything he did, and given the way he takes total responsibility for all his bad actions, you know he'll blame himself even if he was possessed by darkness and driven by Nimue. I hope Archie has plenty of space on his schedule.

 

I think Colin could act the hell out of the aftermath, but I don't necessarily want to see a nearly suicidally guilt-stricken Hook. And yet I'd prefer that to not having consequences at all.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ we'll be lucky if they let Hook show PTSD or guilt. Knowing these writers we'll get a make-up hug and kiss, and that'll be the end of it.

Colin plays crazy evil very well. It's like, I don't want to like Darth Killian, but he's very fun to watch. I just wish we could have seen more of his descent into darkness.

[Shanna Marie]

Colin plays crazy evil very well. It's like, I don't want to like Darth Killian, but he's very fun to watch.

The scene in Gold's shop was amazing, the way he kept switching back and forth between his own snarky self and his impression of Dark One Rumple, replaying their former scenes. Other times, you got that sense that he was one big walking wound acting out. If he didn't already have two strikes against him for being on network television and on a fantasy show, I'd say Colin stood a chance for an Emmy nomination for this episode, since he played so many permutations of the same character, showing him at various points on the descent into darkness.

[InsertWordHere]

Did anyone else think it was odd that Hook told Emma he usually says ILY first? Yes, he's told her his feelings many times in many different ways, but onscreen, he'd only told her once at that point in the timeline that he was "the pirate who loves you." Emma actually did say it first. 

[HoodlumSheep]

^ #offscreenville, obviously. :P

No, maybe he's counting all the "I-love-you's-without-actually-saying-it." Because I think his statement would hold true if that were the case.

Edited November 30, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[OnceUponAJen]

Does the Echo Caves scene count? I can't remember, did Hook say he didn't think he'd be able to love anyone again after Milah? He probably didn't use that word, but I'm having a hard time remembering how he phrased it.

[mjgchick]

Yeah I had a "uhh" moment when he said that because Emma's said it first to him which when he said it to her the first time I thought it was in Camelot. I assumed it was his first time because of her huge smile.

These two exhaust me.

[pezgirl7]

I thought it was strange too. This episode was actually the first time Hook said 'I love you' to Emma. He's said it in other ways before, but not those actual 3 words, so I didn't really understand why he said that. Unless he was talking about past relationships, but I thought Milah was the only other woman besides Emma who he's loved.

[InsertWordHere]

He said it in Storybrooke (past tense) on his ship and present tense in Birth, but that was chronologically after the Dark One ILY in the field of flowers.

[Rumsy4]

Hook genuinely works hard to become a good person, and what does he get? He is made the DO and relive his worst memories. He is temporarily given his hand back before it is taken away as some "token" of evil. Everything he worked for lies crumbling under his feet.

Rumple gets a clean slate without an iota of effort on his part, gets hero status, his worst enemy fixes his limp, and he defeats Hook yet again.

Villian or victim, Hook is never allowed justice for whatever Rumple does to him.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Rumsy4

[InsertWordHere]

Unless Hook really didn't care about killing Rumple, that fight was such bs. 

Does the Echo Caves scene count? I can't remember, did Hook say he didn't think he'd be able to love anyone again after Milah? He probably didn't use that word, but I'm having a hard time remembering how he phrased it.

He said, "I never thought I'd be capable of letting go of my first love, my Milah, to believe that I could find someone else, that is until I met you."

[Faemonic]

 If he didn't already have two strikes against him for being on network television and on a fantasy show, I'd say Colin stood a chance for an Emmy nomination for this episode

Part of me is hoping that Hook dies so that Colin can act in something worthy of his skills.

 

 Villian or victim, Hook is never allowed justice for whatever Rumple does to him.

That's good character writing, though. If his hand grows back on its own like a lizard's tail, and Regina decides to put a heart-stealing stopper spell on him because she was in a good mood, and Milah from the past trips and falls into Jefferson's hat and into the present, and Undead Liam drinks too much of the witch's wine and can't get incorporeal again (his death was Papa Pan's fault for not being more communicative, not Rumple's fault, but my point is) then Hook won't have much to do but point his weapons at the next gimmicky big bad boss and Captain Floor. We wouldn't be able to tell him from Robin or Charming even if Hook's the brunet.

 

If it's retributive justice...I doubt Rumple can really give that, ever, not even if Darth Jones did the cleavage, cleavage thing (when the stars in the sky align with the stars in the hat) on a Bizarro World pirate Rumple. Which might still happen.

 

But basically, if it's some sort of emotional payoff ye be seekin' umm... wait, wait, I'm sure I can give a serious answer to this. I think it's sort of pasted on without Neal. Rumpel and Hook can avoid each other just fine and be happy with their families. They have a past, but they have a present too, and their presents could easily go in wildly different directions, and would if it weren't for the Plot. Henry doesn't seem strained from timeshare. They're not vying for Sheriff Nolan's favors. Regina can balance a grudging respect for her sensei with a grudging respect for a pirate, but it's not as though they love her like a daughter/sister and need her in their lives or else they'll go dark or live in a box in an alleyway. Belle and Snow are neutral territory. There's really nothing tying Rumpel and Hook to a common stake. I almost think that the only reason Rumpel and Hook would cross paths anymore would be if they were bored, possessed, or the Charmings pushed through with their awkward Thanksgiving.

[PixiePaws1]

Hook genuinely works hard to become a good person, and what does he get? He is made the DO and relive his worst memories. He is temporarily given his hand back before it is taken away as some "token" of evil. Everything he worked for lies crumbling under his feet.

Rumple gets a clean slate without an iota of effort on his part, gets hero status, his worst enemy fixes his limp, and he defeats Hook yet again.

Villian or victim, Hook is never allowed justice for whatever Rumple does to him.

....no good deed goes unpunished. ..not on this show!

Resurrect an evil that destroys and kills because you are a selfish moron and get a prince named after you!

Seriously did i just see 2 years (real time) of redemption get thrown in the deep end of the portal to hell???

....and this is meant to entertain me...this little show about 'hope'??

Edited November 30, 2015 by PixiePaws1

[KAOS Agent]

What bothers me about Dark Hook is that Hook understood that revenge got him exactly nothing. He didn't give it up because of Emma, he gave it up because it left him with no one who cared about him and no purpose in his life. It was interesting that Emma tried to get that point across to him and he pretty much failed to process it. I also don't get how Hook suddenly doesn't care about anyone. I understand that he's angry at Emma and wants to hurt her (although not kill her), but he had a relationship with Henry. He's risked his life for the kid before. How is he completely uncaring about Henry dying? 

 

He can be planning some sort of double cross with the Darkness, but it seems like there are a lot of ways for it to fail that result in people he cares about dying. This includes Emma. Honestly, there is no way that this can be satisfactorily resolved in forty minutes. And no, a last minute change of heart where he sacrifices to fix his own damn mess doesn't work. It's Regina and the fail safe all over again.

[PixiePaws1]

What bothers me about Dark Hook is that Hook understood that revenge got him exactly nothing. He didn't give it up because of Emma, he gave it up because it left him with no one who cared about him and no purpose in his life. It was interesting that Emma tried to get that point across to him and he pretty much failed to process it. I also don't get how Hook suddenly doesn't care about anyone. I understand that he's angry at Emma and wants to hurt her (although not kill her), but he had a relationship with Henry. He's risked his life for the kid before. How is he completely uncaring about Henry dying?

He can be planning some sort of double cross with the Darkness, but it seems like there are a lot of ways for it to fail that result in people he cares about dying. This includes Emma. Honestly, there is no way that this can be satisfactorily resolved in forty minutes. And no, a last minute change of heart where he sacrifices to fix his own damn mess doesn't work. It's Regina and the fail safe all over again.

I agree...the only 'out' i can think of is if Nimue is completely driving the bus ..otherwise they just completely destroyed the character. ..

[InsertWordHere]

What bothers me about Dark Hook is that Hook understood that revenge got him exactly nothing. He didn't give it up because of Emma, he gave it up because it left him with no one who cared about him and no purpose in his life.

Yep. I don't care how many times the show tries to state that he turned that boat around because of Emma, that's not what happened on my screen. He had already gone to the heroes to stop Greg and Tamara's plan because he realized revenge didn't fulfill him as much as he thought it would. He then displayed some remarkable cunning (which is what I've always loved him for and why I will hate if he's just being manipulated by the darkness) by stealing the bean right from under the heroes' noses when they wanted to use it to save Regina. He came back with the bean because of the memory of his revenge driving away Baelfire. To have him go back to revenge against Rumple, and to fail at it, makes no sense. We are told he made a deal with the Dark Ones so he could get revenge on Rumple, but all he does is cut him with his hook. Then he leaves the sword that can kill him with Rumple after telling him that it can kill him. 

 

I agree, a last minute change of heart stopping his own damn plan is the last option I want. It's too much like the things I hate about Regina and the praise she gets for not being as absolutely vile as she could be. I would rather he stays completely dark and Emma has to kill him, if those are my only choices.

 

Regarding Nimue, it is interesting that people are being turned into trees at the town line. It's Nimue's curse, not Hook's.

 

I do still believe he is pulling a con though. This is the character who made up a whole sextant quest to save David's life, because he knew David wouldn't willingly go to the spring. The character who hightailed it out of Storybrooke to kill Rumple while Regina and Cora searched for the dagger. He tricked Regina. Twice. He left Snow and Charming on his ship with Tiny and slipped away. It is in his character, especially when he's dark, to be devious and to switch sides, even if it at first looks like he's helping one side over the other. 

Edited November 30, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[Faemonic]

I do still believe he is pulling a con though.

I don't know...that this show's turned him into a puppy that vacillates between brooding and earnest, fine. Turn down the dials of "bully" and "cad"--awesome! But since Snow's Curse he's forgotten how to tell a convincing lie, how to tell a smart lie, how to make a strategic decision in a tight corner, and how not to do something horribly stupid even when he isn't in a tight corner. He can still call it as he sees it, but I miss that Hook who made plot happen instead of had plots happen to him.

[Mari]

I do still believe he is pulling a con though. This is the character who made up a whole sextant quest to save David's life, because he knew David wouldn't willingly go to the spring. The character who hightailed it out of Storybrooke to kill Rumple while Regina and Cora searched for the dagger. He tricked Regina. Twice. He left Snow and Charming on his ship with Tiny and slipped away. It is in his character, especially when he's dark, to be devious and to switch sides, even if it at first looks like he's helping one side over the other. 

True.  Absolutely true.

 

But these are also the writers that insist Belle and Rumple are True Loves, Regina had never dance before, and whose biggest weaknesses as writers seem to be basic logic and math.

 

The Hook he's been so far would definitely be smarter and have a plan within a plan.  But, he might have been given a reverse Regina reboot--and the new character might not be.

[babyPhat279]

 

He didn't give it up because of Emma, he gave it up because it left him with no one who cared about him and no purpose in his life.

While that's the way I would want it, is it really true? He initially told Greg and Tamara he was "sated" when he thought Gold was dead, and I thought it was implied he was pretty much partying it up over his win before they kidnapped him. His turnaround seemed more just that he wasn't willing to die to kill Gold, which is certainly logical. Then the season ended and they had to go find Henry, so he just kind of got over it. I remember because I was just like "what, that's it? you're over it because it's May?"

[KAOS Agent]

I direct you to Hook's conversation with Regina in "The Evil Queen" where he says specifically that "revenge may sate your being, but don't misunderstand me, my dear, it's an end not a beginning." He also says that after he'd thought Rumpel was dead, he felt nothing. He further says that he realizes that once it's all over he'll have nothing.

His words to Greg and Tamara were bluster pure and simple. He was judging them hard and bugged out the minute he could. He tried rationalizing with Regina and would have switched sides to hers, but she pushed him off the cliff. Hook was already at the turning point because he'd already gotten his revenge (so he thought) and it wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

I generally hate that episode, but it does a fine job of showing Hook's mindset and motivations going into the final two episodes of S2.

[Rumsy4]

Well, as discussed in the Spec thread, Hook did bring Nimue to Storybrooke, and according to Merlin, you need her to get rid of the Darkness for good.

But since Snow's Curse he's forgotten how to tell a convincing lie, how to tell a smart lie, how to make a strategic decision in a tight corner, and how not to do something horribly stupid even when he isn't in a tight corner.

Shh... S4 never happened according to me. It did a number on everything and everyone.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Rumsy4

[InsertWordHere]

But even in Season 3, he had lost some of his cunning. It hasn't been seen since "Good Form." At some point the "lovesick puppy" apparently lost his ability to trick people. Instead, Zelena tricks him, Gold tricks him, and now it seems the darkness is tricking him. Or maybe not. He said you're not a pawn if you know you're being used.

 

But he's not the lovesick puppy anymore, according to Dark Hook. Revenge bound Hook was pretty smart. Smarter than what we saw last night if everything Hook told us is straightforward and not some secret plan. 

Edited November 30, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[Rumsy4]

Well, I hope puppy Killian retains some of that bite when he stops being Dark Hook. I really enjoyed Camelot Hook. He was supportive boyfriend and understanding partner, but also smart, confident, and valiant. Quite a change from the insecure Killian of S4 into romantic hero. Let's hope all that is not thrown out of the window by the Darkness.

[mjgchick]

Hook had his moments but like the other characters Hook did a lot of dumb things and that was before he started having feelings for Emma. He got bested by Team Princess, sided with them until Emma bested him again and then he switched sides again to be with Cora because he knew she still needed him.

That being said Hook from last night telling everyone his plans like that was very Zelena of S3. (I can see why some think he might be playing a long con.) I don't get why people write villains like that. Its not just on Once Upon A Time either.

I still hate what happened last night because it just feels like they are white washing the things Rumple did by using Hook since they had Emma actually beat Nimue but since none of the men on this show not Rumple can win Hooks the scapegoat. I don't care what anyone says they massacred his redemption even if Colin did some good acting last night. They also low key threw Emma under the bus. Not cool.

[Rumsy4]

The worst thing Hook did last night was the way he spoke of Milah. It really cheapened everything about his core chaartcer. Maybe he was taunting Rumple to push him or whatever, but it was still terrible.

Maybe this will be addressed with Milah's potential return in 5B, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

No matter whether Hook is pulling a long con or not, his behavior was pretty shitty last night. I want the Show to address it and not merely say the "Darkness made him do it". Otherwise, they will have messed up the only good villain redemption they have on this show.

[mjgchick]

Yeah I need Emma to tell Hook "even though I known you were influenced, what you said to me was wrong." Or something like that. The way she challenged him when he was lying about how he knew Ursula. Emma and Killian aren't the type to just let things slide. What Hook said to her last night are things he's probably been feeling. He was hurt that she didn't trust him. That she always thinks doing things on her own (Though I don't see nothing wrong with that especially when it's her mess to fix) and running away. That was bottled up inside of him. I need them to talk about this and apologize to each other.

[Curio]

Yeah I need Emma to tell Hook "even though I known you were influenced, what you said to me was wrong."

 

I don't want this to happen, only because it needs to be Hook who addresses her about what he did. That will make his redemption much more palatable and realistic for me. I'd much rather have Hook be the one to say, "Even though I was influenced by the strongest magic known in the Enchanted Forest universe and didn't even want it to begin with, what I said to you was out of line," than have Emma prod that apology out of him.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

I'd much rather have Hook be the one to say, "Even though I was influenced by the strongest magic known in the Enchanted Forest universe and didn't even want it to begin with, what I said to you was out of line," than have Emma prod that apology out of him.

That would be in character for him. He's always been the best of the former villains for owning up to his wrongdoing and not making excuses, even when there were excuses to be made. Well, actually I suspect the initial thing he'll do is withdraw entirely because he can't face Emma and the others, and he won't feel worthy of Emma because he screwed up and because of the way he treated her.

 

Of course, "in character" means absolutely nothing on this show.

[Rumsy4]

Wasn't this the first time we heard Killian describe hiw he felt when being controlled by Rumple in 4A? (Cue Emma taking shots with Regina after shoving his heart inside his chest at Granny's).

After that Emma became too busy with Operation Stupid. Then, she didn't listen to him when he begged her not to take on the Darkness, and later not to turn him into a DO.

No wonder the dam broke when Emma lied to him about not having Excalibur with her. He also got mad when Zelena called him Emma's toy. I guess he still feels insecure and unequal in his relationship with Emma. I hope all this will be addressed in the next arc, and not just shoved under the carpet. Unless the next shiny toy shows up to distract the writers.

[mjgchick]

I don't want this to happen, only because it needs to be Hook who addresses her about what he did. That will make his redemption much more palatable and realistic for me. I'd much rather have Hook be the one to say, "Even though I was influenced by the strongest magic known in the Enchanted Forest universe and didn't even want it to begin with, what I said to you was out of line," than have Emma prod that apology out of him.

That will work also. It's just what I always liked about these two was how honest they were with each other. Having them shove it under a rug because they need to be in hero mode is not going to work for me. What Killian said to her was awful what she did to him was awful. Shoving it under or saying the Darkness did it to him is like how all of a sudden Regina didn't kill Marian. Hook and Emma are better than that.

[PixiePaws1]

Well, I hope puppy Killian retains some of that bite when he stops being Dark Hook. I really enjoyed Camelot Hook. He was supportive boyfriend and understanding partner, but also smart, confident, and valiant. Quite a change from the insecure Killian of S4 into romantic hero. Let's hope all that is not thrown out of the window by the Darkness.

I always looked forward to getting fun, flirty and outrageously inappropriate Killian back once he was secure in the relationship with an Emma who freely admits she loves him. I believe they'd be hysterical to watch and oh so sweet and supportive of each other....now...that can't happen until all the bitter words and actions are properly and healthily dealt with....and that can't happen until the huge amounts of self-loathing and guilt are handled. ...*sigh*

[Rumsy4]

Kudos to Colin for such a compelling performance. And apparently he only knew about the Dark Hook reveal when he got the script. I mean--wow!!

His portrayal is on a whole another level. Dark Hook is not really S2 Hook. In many ways, he is a version of S2 Hook stripped down to the core essentials. He is darker, colder, and rather sadistic. His swagger and charm are off the charts, but there's little of the flirt there. I love how economical his wrist movements when doing magic are. Every single facial expression, gesture, and tone of voice are so calculated and mesmerizing to watch. Really, I am so going to miss Dark Hook (except for the part where he is deliberately hurting Emma, of course).

I just really really hope Hook doesn't revert back to "puppy Killian" when all this is done. I'll settle for Camelot Hook at the very least. ;-)

[PixiePaws1]

The problem with Emma's issues meant he had to walk a fine line between pushing her and being submissive. Much of his more over the top behavior comes from his own walls. ..he had to lower most of his walls first in order for her to see he was genuine in his goal of a full on relationship with a future. Unfortunately that had a tendency to come across as love sick puppy...but he was faced with a mammoth task. Not sure if he could have won her heart with a different approach.

[Faemonic]

Yes! Plotter Hook is back! Too bad it took a goopy Shattered Sight spell, and he's otherwise...erratic? Gloriously erratic.

 

There's even a meta out there that Hook made a Dark One deal with Belle to spare Rumpel's life if she broke up with Rumpel. If it eases up on the Belle hate going on from Dearies and Rumbellers right now, I'll take it as a Hooker. (That sounded bad.)

 

I hope that's what #HappenedOffscreen, but what we've actually seen is still pretty intriguing...because I actually don't know if that's Chessmaster Dark One's brain trust hive mind at work, or if that's Hook. It didn't make logical sense to me that Hook would have any right to be angry at having Darkness forced upon him when he then gives into that Darkness, but being the Dark One looks so much worse from the inside. It's like what we know of Hook has gotten torn up into confetti and mixed into the Dark One goop, so of course his motivations are barely going to make any sense anymore. So, when he calls Emma a distraction, I want to say that's the corrupted grail magic talking, but he had probably thought such a thing before poisoning Rumple in New York, and that's probably resurfacing. When he tells Emma that she'll always be an orphan (and why), it's probably something that Hook thought, but the Dark One curse meant that he couldn't word it in concerned hypotheticals.

 

Also I thought the Rumple/Hook swordfight was slashy, like Hook almost making kissy-faces in the air when their fight began, and Hook's "Ooho! We could do this all day!" when Rumple...um...jabbed him with his sword. That might be me.

 

When Hook contentedly goes over to the Underworld Pond after not killing Gold, I've got to think that was the Dark Hive Mind, even though there are at least three people off the top of my head I can imagine Hook wanting to resurrect, and then there's his own death wish.

 

Hook could have Rumple's memories of killing Milah. Yes, Hook was there, but now he'd have a different set of memories and emotions from her death. I suppose he could even "remember" almost crushing his own heart. That could get complicated. LOL

It did! You called it.

[Rumsy4]

It didn't make logical sense to me that Hook would have any right to be angry at having Darkness forced upon him when he then gives into that Darkness, but being the Dark One looks so much worse from the inside. It's like what we know of Hook has gotten torn up into confetti and mixed into the Dark One goop, so of course his motivations are barely going to make any sense anymore.

Hook's motives seem quite simple to me. He is so angry with Emma for not just making him the Dark One, but also for betraying his trust, that by god he's going to give her the Dark One in all his vengeful glory. And for Hook, the essence of his vengeful self is revenge at the Crocodile. It's almost like a security blanket.

And it looks like Dark Hook didn't kill Gold in the duel because he wants to send him directly to the UW to avoid risking blank slate pure heart Gold ends up in Elysium or somewhere not-Hell

. Hook is not strong enough to resist the pull of the "One Ring" goop. Ultimately, even Emma couldn't. Though she resisted harder because of her inherent Light Magic.

Of course Hook doesn't think Emma will always be an orphan (just like Emma never thought Hook was not much good in a bind because of his lack of limb). Otherwise he would never have bothered with her. But right now, he can only see the worst in her (as opposed to them promising to see the best in each other in 4B). None of us seldom think only the best of people we love. Less than generous thoughts of those we love are inevitable at times. But it's the choosing to see the best, or giving the benefit of the doubt, with communication and compromise, that works to make a healthy relationship.

[YaddaYadda]

Hook basically went back to that place of betrayal he felt after Emma left him atop the beanstalk. 

 

He told her he was done with her, he fought her, fought with her, and we know what happened after that.

[Faemonic]

Look, the thing is, Colin has chemistry with literally EVERYONE, even inanimate objects. If you want a good laugh, this photo recap of 3x11 is evidence that Hook could potentially have chemistry with a ROCK. It's actually kind of scary ;)

I remember that one! Look and Lushcola updated it to include Archie and Felix.

 

 

Hook's motives seem quite simple to me. He is so angry with Emma for not just making him the Dark One, but also for betraying his trust, that by god he's going to give her the Dark One in all his vengeful glory.

That makes sense, too, in a toddler's tantrum way. It just made immediate sense to me to watch him be completely off his rocker bananas because like he saw the cosmos. I think he and Missy from the new Doctor Who could be neck and neck when it comes to crazy evil. Zelena, bless her wide eyes, wouldn't even be in the running.

 

 

 

Of course Hook doesn't think Emma will always be an orphan (just like Emma never thought Hook was not much good in a bind because of his lack of limb). Otherwise he would never have bothered with her. But right now, he can only see the worst in her (as opposed to them promising to see the best in each other in 4B). None of us seldom think only the best of people we love. Less than generous thoughts of those we love are inevitable at times. But it's the choosing to see the best, or giving the benefit of the doubt, with communication and compromise, that works to make a healthy relationship.

Cheers to that! I think what Hook told her in early S4 about how there's always going to be some emergency or battle and she should try living her life in the moments between or else she'll end up missing it, would be the concerned hypothetical version of "You push people away, that's why you'll always be an orphan." It's the same idea, but the S4 soundbite has some admiration, benefit of the doubt, better communication, etcetera. Take it earlier to the S2 beanstalk climb, he notices that she's been an orphan, but things would be easier for them both if she opened up and trusted him. Thematic unity!

Edited December 2, 2015 by Faemonic

[Shanna Marie]

Look, the thing is, Colin has chemistry with literally EVERYONE, even inanimate objects.

I just realized something a little eerie and had not made this connection, but there's a character in one of my series named Colin. Mind you, I wrote the initial book and created the character in the summer of 2010, so more than a year before this series came on, more than two years before Captain Hook was even on the radar, and before I could have even been remotely aware of actor Colin in any capacity. My character is Irish, but he's a redhead, and he's rather different from either actor Colin or Hook, aside from being possibly even more flirty than Hook -- he totally lacks Hook's darkness and is just generally exuberant and good-natured. But still, he's the kind of person who, if this were going to be made into a movie, would have to be played by a character who has chemistry with everyone, even inanimate objects, and in the book I'm working on now, he's described as someone who would flirt with a lamppost -- and the lamp would shine brighter for him (the character who says that is trying to counsel someone who was on the receiving end of the flirting and took it a little too seriously). That just struck me when reading the "chemistry with inanimate objects" and I had the "duh" moment of realizing I have a character with that name and that trait.

 

Though I think Colin's chemistry with everyone thing mostly comes from him being all-in, 100 percent in the scene, no matter who else is in the scene, what's going on with the scene, or how important the scene is. He does that in the background when he has no lines, and being that way with his scene partners makes them have to also be all-in and totally in the moment, so the result is that all his scenes zing, and that comes across as chemistry.

[snarkybelle]

Cheers to that! I think what Hook told her in early S4 about how there's always going to be some emergency or battle and she should try living her life in the moments between or else she'll end up missing it, would be the concerned hypothetical version of "You push people away, that's why you'll always be an orphan." It's the same idea, but the S4 soundbite has some admiration, benefit of the doubt, better communication, etcetera. Take it earlier to the S2 beanstalk climb, he notices that she's been an orphan, but things would be easier for them both if she opened up and trusted him. Thematic unity!

 

He once compared Emma to a dried up, useless bean with no hope, magic or possibility.  It was quite the temper tantrum considering he had just met her. That always told me he had feelings for her way back then.  He was asking her to trust him in S2 but there was no basis for that trust so I could see why she wouldn't trust him. Now after he did everything he could to build that trust and she broke it, it isn't out of character for Dark Hook to want to hurt her feelings in retribution so season 2 and season 5 are Captain Swan/ Dark Swan parallels.  Also he helped restore the magic bean at Lake Nostos just like he helped restore Emma's magic plenty of times.  Now that's cool storytelling.  Emma/ Magic bean .  Maybe that's why she wears beanies?

[Curio]

Though I think Colin's chemistry with everyone thing mostly comes from him being all-in, 100 percent in the scene, no matter who else is in the scene, what's going on with the scene, or how important the scene is. He does that in the background when he has no lines, and being that way with his scene partners makes them have to also be all-in and totally in the moment, so the result is that all his scenes zing, and that comes across as chemistry.

 

There's a very fine line between being 100% committed to a character/scene and being so ham-fisted and theatrical that the actor ends up stealing the scene away from the others. Luckily, Colin has always been more in the first camp, where he's obviously so committed to putting in his best performance even though 99% of his lines are cheesy as hell, but he also doesn't overact to the point where it comes off as pure camp/trying to outshine his scene partners. (See: some of the other very hammy performances on this show.) 

[Shanna Marie]

There's a very fine line between being 100% committed to a character/scene and being so ham-fisted and theatrical that the actor ends up stealing the scene away from the others.

I would call that more being committed to oneself rather than being committed to the character/scene. If you're committed to the scene, then you're putting your character in its proper place in the scene, relative to the other characters. Being in the moment and all there just means that you're doing/being/feeling what your character should in that moment. The hamminess is kind of a removal from the scene. And that's where I think Colin shines, because he's generous to his scene partners. He gives them a lot to work with and manages to reflect the focus where he needs to be, and while I've caught accent slips (or are they really slips, since his accent is made up rather than a real accent?), I can't think of any moments where I felt while watching the show that we were seeing Colin rather than Hook. Even in the set stalker photos, you can tell the difference between pictures taken of a scene when we're seeing Hook in action and behind-the-scenes pictures of Colin in costume as Hook, even if everything else in the photo looks the same and the behind-the-scenes pic is just a moment between takes. I get the sense that it's almost like he turns off his personal consciousness and just becomes Hook, so he's not thinking about whether this should go on his Emmy reel or whether he looks good from this angle, what people will be saying on Twitter, or even what his parents will think about this scene. For that moment, he is Hook in Gold's store, or the library, or police station, etc. He's not an actor on a set. It takes an actor without a massive ego to really pull that off because it requires putting the self aside for a moment. The real hams can't quite manage to do that consistently. They draw focus because they're more worried about how they look than they are about the character or the scene.

[LizaD]

I think people are too focused on the CS relationship but it's actually Hook's character that took a beating and it had nothing to do with Emma. At all.

 

I've said this before, right after Birth, that Hook was always positioned as a "fighter." I see it around a lot in the Hook fandom itself that there's a lot of "pride" in his line during his duel with Rump about a "man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets." That's part of the whole Rump is a coward narrative vs Hook. First him rather dying than facing darkness is cowardly within the frame of how the show calls Rump a coward. He didn't fight for himself and he didn't fight for Emma, exactly what he looked down his nose on Rump for, for not fighting for Milah. He rather die than face temptation and Rump rather live than risk dying. Then that is further compounded by him not even attempting to fight before giving into the darkness. He's basically like whelp I'm weak so there's no use fighting. When the chips are down, he just gave up.

 

So in my opinion, when Colin talks about "becoming the thing he hates the most" and he's referring to Dark One Rump, I think there's a bit of irony there in that he only got to that point because he became coward Rump first and coward Rump is the reason Rump took on the DO.

Edited December 2, 2015 by LizaD

[Curio]

First him rather dying than facing darkness is cowardly within the frame of how the show calls Rump a coward. He didn't fight for himself and he didn't fight for Emma, exactly what he looked down his nose on Rump for, for not fighting for Milah. He rather die than face temptation and Rump rather live than risk dying.

 

I think there's a small bit of irony in Hook being afraid of becoming a Dark One, but I wouldn't necessarily put it on the same level of Rumple's cowardice. I'd actually say Hook's self-loathing was a stronger force behind his decision to die than his cowardice. Emma is Killian's happy ending, and I think he reached a point where her happiness trumped his own life. In his mind, Emma being normal again and living a life with Henry and her family without worrying about being a Dark One is a much happier ending than being forced to become a Dark One just to save his life. When Emma mentioned battling the darkness together, she was imagining a situation like Camelot where Hook always encouraged her and gave her strength to overcome the demon. But Emma didn't realize just how much Hook's past would render him completely powerless against the darkness, and Hook knew that and tried to warn Emma about it. Emma was trying to be an optimist in the situation and convince Hook of something that probably had a 1% chance of ending happily, while Hook was the realist who wanted to die because he knew there was a 99% chance the darkness would turn him into something Emma would end up hating. Of course, with this show, holding onto 1% hope is always supposed to be the hero's option versus the 99% realistic chance that things are going to go to shit, but that's Once for you.

[LizaD]

 

I'd actually say Hook's self-loathing was a stronger force behind his decision to die than his cowardice.

 

Well Rump is equally driven by self-loathing and I'd say Emma is too. Rump's "cowardice" directly stems from his self-loathing so I think it's just quibbling. In fact I think Rump's self-loathing is more often times than not mislabeled as cowardice. Of course people who hate Rump won't see it that way because for some reason, self-loathing is more acceptable than cowardice. But bottom line is Hook didn't even put up a fight.

 

But I find it hard to believe that someone who's really that self-loathing would hard-core pursue Emma like he did. If he didn't think he was "worthy" of Emma why would he pursue her in the first place? Besides their whole schtick is that they are the same, equals. If he truly understood Emma and he's coming from a place of self-loathing then he should know that that's where Emma is coming from too. Since people see the "orphan" line as telling her to "woman up" he too needs to "man up" and stop wallowing in his insecurities.

 

 

Emma is Killian's happy ending, and I think he reached a point where her happiness trumped his own life. In his mind, Emma being normal again and living a life with Henry and her family without worrying about being a Dark One is a much happier ending than being forced to become a Dark One just to save his life.

 

Yeah except him living with her is part of her happiness. So he unilaterally decided that Emma could be just fine and dandy and happy without him, without really listening to her. And she did the same when she decided unilaterally that she was going to fight for him in the way he didn't want. I think it's debatable whether Emma's happiness or his own cowardice was the main driver. I tend to think it's equally both seeing as how he mentioned both reasons for why he didn't want to risk being the DO.

[Curio]

Well Rump is equally driven by self-loathing and I'd say Emma is too.

I can see Rumple having similar self-loathing, but I think Emma has really improved with her self-love ever since the Elsa arc. If Emma was as self-loathing as Killian, I don't think she'd be as optimistic about their future or be so adamant about overcoming and destroying the darkness. It's now Hook's turn to join Emma and become less self-loathing, which I'm hoping the writers address after this Dark Hook arc is done.

 

But bottom line is Hook didn't even put up a fight.

 

I guess, but it's funny how this can be said about a guy who traveled realms to the place where his brother died died just to help Emma find Henry, traded the Jolly Roger to help find Emma in New York, offered to help Emma even though she was pissed about Henry and the flying monkeys, took a risk and followed Emma down the time travel tunnel, was patient with Emma all throughout Operation Dumbass, sacrificed himself in the Alternate Universe to help save Emma and Henry, and took off his hook and defeated the villain du jour to save Emma's family from Arthur's control... can suddenly be called a quitter just because he'd rather face death than become something both he and Emma will despise. Would it have been in character to go along with Emma's plan? When Emma says they can defeat the darkness together, would it have been realistic for Hook to be okay with that plan and become the very thing he hates most in the world, and most likely turn into a monster that Emma will eventually end up hating? If he allowed Emma to tether him on his death bed, there would be a huge portion of the audience calling bullshit on his characterization.

 

But I find it hard to believe that someone who's really that self-loathing would hard-core pursue Emma like he did. If he didn't think he was "worthy" of Emma why would he pursue her in the first place?

 

I'm impressed the writers have surprisingly started to touch on this with Hook becoming a Dark One. I've always assumed he felt like the inferior one in his relationship with Emma, but we're finally getting some canon evidence that he thinks this is true. "So she can control you. Not that she needs Excalibur. She's quite good at doing that all on her own." Hook knows he is worthy of Emma if he's his best self, but it's been a struggle to find what that "best self" truly is. For so long, I think Hook has put Emma up on this pedestal where she can do no wrong (and by this, I mean that he has a tendency to just be quiet and take some of the harsh things she says without even defending himself) he's this lowly pirate who doesn't deserve her, which is why I'm actually kind of excited to see the fallout from this Dark Hook/Dark Emma plot. Emma has finally done something to Hook that makes him realize she's very human and can make big mistakes just like he can. Hopefully the writing actually reflects that and follows up on it because that's where the real drama is at.

 

Since people see the "orphan" line as telling her to "woman up" he too needs to "man up" and stop wallowing in his insecurities.

 

Have people actually been saying that? I definitely did not read that line as "woman up;" it was poking a finger into the gun wound just to be cruel. But yes, Hook needs to "woman up" and get some self-confidence back, even though that's virtually impossible at the moment.

 

Yeah except him living with her is part of her happiness. So he unilaterally decided that Emma could be just fine and dandy and happy without him, without really listening to her. And she did the same when she decided unilaterally that she was going to fight for him in the way he didn't want.

 

I agree that they were both making decisions for each other without really listening to what the other was saying. Hook was jumping to the conclusion that Emma could move on with life just fine without him beside her, and Emma was jumping to the conclusion that Hook could defeat the darkness just as easily as she could fight it off. This is one of the few situations on the show where both sides are right and wrong and grey, so kudos to the writers for not creating their normal black-and-white "Henry moralism" situation with this Emma and Hook drama.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Curio