Season 5: Days of Real Housewives Lives - The Season in Review

[Reo]

I've been reading a lot about the Richards family lately, and BigKathy's narcissic and controlling behaviors really set off some memories of my own mother.  My mom had narcissic personality disorder, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if BigKathy had it too.  It's a tough, tough way to be raised as a child and it messes with you for years.

 

My mother controlled and manipulated me, my sister, and my half-brother. Everything was my fault.  Everything.  It was all skewed against me, and my sister was taught to think I was a loser.  We loved each other but never really trusted each other.  We were taught to envy and to compete for our mom's attention.  It was really pretty ugly.  My mother was mean, mean, mean and wickedly critical, but only behind closed doors.  She was sweet as pie when there was anyone around, including my father.  She was a beautiful woman and she liked having her own way, and she got it.  Narcs have no empathy and get off on playing cruel games.  Children are not real or human to someone with NPD.  They are extensions of the narc.  Narcs need their golden children (to groom to follow them, live through them, spoil them, and threaten to take it all alway on the slightest infraction) and their scapegoats (to torment, to blame, to vent, to tempt with the hope of an acceptance that never comes).  Narcissism is like family DNA.  Kids raised by a narcissist tend to either become narcissists or enablers, and pass it down to their children.  

 

I think Kyle is in that enabler/scapegoat position.  She was the baby, the unexpected last, and she doesn't look like BigKathy with her dark hair and eyes.  LittleKathy was golden child until Kim came along and stole that from her.  Both look like Big Kathy.  Kyle doesn't.  No matter how hard she tries, and she tries her damnedest, she can't win.  Kim and Kathy have both been taught that Kyle has special responsibilities to them.  Those girls had to learn how to be mean girls from somewhere, and they've had lots of practice inflicting their nastiness on Kyle.   

 

Kim has taken over the narcissist role from her mother and Kyle is squirming and uncomfortable with it.  I'm not surprised she cries.  What nailed that for me was watching her run out that restaurant in Amsterdam.  She can't take the confrontation, she fears it.  Watching Kim be mean and smugly irrational brought back horrific memories of how my mother manipulated, but my mother would have never showed her true self like that in front of anyone.  It surprises me that Kim is showing us in TV land that side of herself.  She is showing us her dysfunctional thinking and expecting us to embrace her "logic".  Kim does not have a trace of empathy.  Sure, she's an addict.  But her behavior is narcissistic, and that's gonna be there whether she's using or not.

 

Scapegoats tend to be very responsible people who think if they are responsible enough then everything will change, the narc will joyfully recant all those nasty things that were said and acknowledge they were wrong.  Hah.  Not going to happen.  I think Kyle is waking up to that fact and I hope she realizes that nothing she does will ever be enough for Kim.  I personally have mostly recovered from my disastrous childhood.  It's been a long trail with lots of therapy and CBT but it began with that realization for me.  I want to see Kyle get better, I think she has a chance.

 

The most bizarre thing about all of this is that it is playing out in front of the cameras.  Kim and Kyle both have lived in the public eye all of their lives but now there is a laser focus on their relationship.  I feel a little dirty about airing my private opinions about people I will never meet or know.   

[becauseIsaidso]

I have to wonder if the idiots in charge of bravo are trying to use this season as a set up for making next season the year of the poignant, tearful, soul-sucking kimmie redemption saga - complete with interim/pre-season stories of kimmie's sudden journey into self-awareness and 'struggles' with 100% pain, anguish, family strife, and yet even more pseudo-sobriety. I would not put it past them. If this is their plan, then AFAIC they have waited one season too long as I will never watch this show again as long as it includes that nasty piece of work.

[bosawks]

I'm going to be not so secretly amused if Brandi's getting between Kyle and Kim is the best thing that ever happened to Kyle.

[zoeysmom]

I have to wonder if the idiots in charge of bravo are trying to use this season as a set up for making next season the year of the poignant, tearful, soul-sucking kimmie redemption saga - complete with interim/pre-season stories of kimmie's sudden journey into self-awareness and 'struggles' with 100% pain, anguish, family strife, and yet even more pseudo-sobriety. I would not put it past them. If this is their plan, then AFAIC they have waited one season too long as I will never watch this show again as long as it includes that nasty piece of work.

Along with you no one cares about any more redemption arcs for Kim.  The more years of her definition of sobriety she claims the bigger asshole she becomes.  I think Kim is waiting for a payday when Monty dies and is counting on paid cameos on RHOBH courtesy of her sister or Brandi. 

 

I don't want a Brandi redemption arc either because she is incredibly insincere.  I would not mind seeing Game Night 2 between Kim and Brandi.  Let's see how many times Brandi calls Kim's sobriety into question if these two have a grudge match.

[erikdepressant]

Kim would have been totally redeemed and become my personal hero & favorite cast member if Kingsley had attacked Michael Vick.

[harrie]

Reo, thank you for the insight; and good for you for coming out of that situation in one piece. 

[Aunt Kiki]

I've been reading a lot about the Richards family lately, and BigKathy's narcissic and controlling behaviors really set off some memories of my own mother.  My mom had narcissic personality disorder, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if BigKathy had it too.  It's a tough, tough way to be raised as a child and it messes with you for years.

 

My mother controlled and manipulated me, my sister, and my half-brother. Everything was my fault.  Everything.  It was all skewed against me, and my sister was taught to think I was a loser.  We loved each other but never really trusted each other.  We were taught to envy and to compete for our mom's attention.  It was really pretty ugly.  My mother was mean, mean, mean and wickedly critical, but only behind closed doors.  She was sweet as pie when there was anyone around, including my father.  She was a beautiful woman and she liked having her own way, and she got it.  Narcs have no empathy and get off on playing cruel games.  Children are not real or human to someone with NPD.  They are extensions of the narc.  Narcs need their golden children (to groom to follow them, live through them, spoil them, and threaten to take it all alway on the slightest infraction) and their scapegoats (to torment, to blame, to vent, to tempt with the hope of an acceptance that never comes).  Narcissism is like family DNA.  Kids raised by a narcissist tend to either become narcissists or enablers, and pass it down to their children.  

 

I think Kyle is in that enabler/scapegoat position.  She was the baby, the unexpected last, and she doesn't look like BigKathy with her dark hair and eyes.  LittleKathy was golden child until Kim came along and stole that from her.  Both look like Big Kathy.  Kyle doesn't.  No matter how hard she tries, and she tries her damnedest, she can't win.  Kim and Kathy have both been taught that Kyle has special responsibilities to them.  Those girls had to learn how to be mean girls from somewhere, and they've had lots of practice inflicting their nastiness on Kyle.   

 

Kim has taken over the narcissist role from her mother and Kyle is squirming and uncomfortable with it.  I'm not surprised she cries.  What nailed that for me was watching her run out that restaurant in Amsterdam.  She can't take the confrontation, she fears it.  Watching Kim be mean and smugly irrational brought back horrific memories of how my mother manipulated, but my mother would have never showed her true self like that in front of anyone.  It surprises me that Kim is showing us in TV land that side of herself.  She is showing us her dysfunctional thinking and expecting us to embrace her "logic".  Kim does not have a trace of empathy.  Sure, she's an addict.  But her behavior is narcissistic, and that's gonna be there whether she's using or not.

 

Scapegoats tend to be very responsible people who think if they are responsible enough then everything will change, the narc will joyfully recant all those nasty things that were said and acknowledge they were wrong.  Hah.  Not going to happen.  I think Kyle is waking up to that fact and I hope she realizes that nothing she does will ever be enough for Kim.  I personally have mostly recovered from my disastrous childhood.  It's been a long trail with lots of therapy and CBT but it began with that realization for me.  I want to see Kyle get better, I think she has a chance.

 

The most bizarre thing about all of this is that it is playing out in front of the cameras.  Kim and Kyle both have lived in the public eye all of their lives but now there is a laser focus on their relationship.  I feel a little dirty about airing my private opinions about people I will never meet or know.   

Reo, I second Harrie's words.  Your story is painful to read in certain areas, but helped me to better understand the impact(s) of living with or having been raised by a person with narcissistic personality.  Thank you.  JMO but I do believe that Big Kathy lived through her daughters to a large extent - when I saw the clip of the 'where are they now' interview with Kim and her mother many years ago, my first thought was - why is the mother there?  Seemed awfully odd to me.

[becauseIsaidso]

 

I don't want a Brandi redemption arc either because she is incredibly insincere.  I would not mind seeing Game Night 2 between Kim and Brandi.  Let's see how many times Brandi calls Kim's sobriety into question if these two have a grudge match.

ITA totally! I would love to see brandi gone as well, but decided to not tempt fate (yet) by saying so, openly, and without reservation. BUT, I must (in my shriveled little evil heart of hearts cuz I fully recognize the inner bitch in me MUST occasionally have her say) hope to have the pleasure of seeing those two beasts at each others' throats - for that I would actually watch one more episode (NOT season) of kim.

[zoeysmom]

Reo, I second Harrie's words.  Your story is painful to read in certain areas, but helped me to better understand the impact(s) of living with or having been raised by a person with narcissistic personality.  Thank you.  JMO but I do believe that Big Kathy lived through her daughters to a large extent - when I saw the clip of the 'where are they now' interview with Kim and her mother many years ago, my first thought was - why is the mother there?  Seemed awfully odd to me.

What was really strange about that clip is it did not air until a couple of years after Big Kathy's death.  I think by then Paris had become prominent.  Kim seemed very happy living in Arizona-still close enough to care for mama with breast cancer.    It was strange to see Big Kathy and how much she and Kathy Hilton resemble each other. 

 

As is fairly evident from the show Big Kathy was in constant touch and vice versa with all three of her daughters.  For the most part the last 15 years of her life her daughters had stopped in working in television and film.  I think she feared more than anything not being remembered and boy has Kyle kept her in her memories and on the show.  I don't know how crazy Big Kathy would have been about Kim doing the show.  I do think she would have been disappointed in Kyle outing Kim's alcoholism and would have probably pressured her married daughters to support Kim to keep Kim's secret awhile longer.  I think Kyle, who expressed to Brandi, the last time they had a civil conversation that Big Kathy's desire to keep Kim's issues private were source of disagreement between Kyle and her mother.  Not so shockingly Brandi agreed they should be out in the open and then in the same breath criticized Kyle for outing Kim.

 

It has bee a long strange trip thanks to Kim. 

[Reo]

Thanks everyone, for your kind words and up votes.

 

It's been a little surreal watching this play out.  I'm really interested in tonight's show.  

[motorcitymom65]

Thanks everyone, for your kind words and up votes.

 

It's been a little surreal watching this play out.  I'm really interested in tonight's show.

Thanks for your post. It was perhaps my favorite of the season.

[twilightzone]

My favorite segments this season -

 

Brandi in her attempted reconciliation with Adrienne.  Love seeing Brandi sweating, squirming, groveling - Adrienne calmly sat there, not saying a lot - it was obvious she held the power card - and she knew it.

 

After the poker night disaster, Eileen invites Kyle, Kim, LisaV, LisaR to her home for a script read.  Brandi was excluded - ironically (or may be not so ironic) - after she bragged about how she beat "the other actresses in the group".  Love seeing how the other women had fun, got along without the toxic ex Mrs. Cibrian.

Edited April 8, 2015 by twilightzone

[Giselle]

The only thing, and I mean, THE ONLY ONE THING I liked involving Brandy was one tiny, little talking head blip when she impersonated LisaV smoking pot. That one bit I enjoyed, before that, after that and the rest of the time I zoomed right past the skank.

 

[nexxie]

The only thing, and I mean, THE ONLY ONE THING I liked involving Brandy was one tiny, little talking head blip when she impersonated LisaV smoking pot. That one bit I enjoyed, before that, after that and the rest of the time I zoomed right past the skank.

 

Love that too - makes me laugh every time !

Too bad Brandi didn't do lots more of this kind of thing instead of all the crap she did do.

[June]

Kim's addiction issues may have been worsened when she was caretaking Big Kathy.  IMO Kim  dipping into mothers medicine is possible.  If she was as manipulative then as she is now who knows what she did between coordinating information with doctors and the pharmacy.  

[WireWrap]

Kim's addiction issues may have been worsened when she was caretaking Big Kathy.  IMO Kim  dipping into mothers medicine is possible.  If she was as manipulative then as she is now who knows what she did between coordinating information with doctors and the pharmacy.  

According to her step-mom, Kim was as high as a kite when her father was dying and he died before Big Kathy got sick. Kim has been an addict most of her adult life with very little time being sober.

[Giselle]

According to her step-mom, Kim was as high as a kite when her father was dying and he died before Big Kathy got sick. Kim has been an addict most of her adult life with very little time being sober.

 

Which is why I believe Kim's kids will always keep Kyle in their lives regardless of RumRaisin's wishes.

[beesknees]

Kim would have been totally redeemed and become my personal hero & favorite cast member if Kingsley had attacked Michael Vick.

 

Hee.  You forgot to *drop microphone* as you exited stage left.

[GreatKazu]

 

Reo, on 07 Apr 2015 - 12:41 AM, said:

    I've been reading a lot about the Richards family lately, and BigKathy's narcissic and controlling behaviors really set off some memories of my own mother.  My mom had narcissic personality disorder, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if BigKathy had it too.  It's a tough, tough way to be raised as a child and it messes with you for years.

    

    My mother controlled and manipulated me, my sister, and my half-brother. Everything was my fault.  Everything.  It was all skewed against me, and my sister was taught to think I was a loser.  We loved each other but never really trusted each other.  We were taught to envy and to compete for our mom's attention.  It was really pretty ugly.  My mother was mean, mean, mean and wickedly critical, but only behind closed doors.  She was sweet as pie when there was anyone around, including my father.  She was a beautiful woman and she liked having her own way, and she got it.  Narcs have no empathy and get off on playing cruel games.  Children are not real or human to someone with NPD.  They are extensions of the narc.  Narcs need their golden children (to groom to follow them, live through them, spoil them, and threaten to take it all alway on the slightest infraction) and their scapegoats (to torment, to blame, to vent, to tempt with the hope of an acceptance that never comes).  Narcissism is like family DNA.  Kids raised by a narcissist tend to either become narcissists or enablers, and pass it down to their children. 

    

    I think Kyle is in that enabler/scapegoat position.  She was the baby, the unexpected last, and she doesn't look like BigKathy with her dark hair and eyes.  LittleKathy was golden child until Kim came along and stole that from her.  Both look like Big Kathy.  Kyle doesn't.  No matter how hard she tries, and she tries her damnedest, she can't win.  Kim and Kathy have both been taught that Kyle has special responsibilities to them.  Those girls had to learn how to be mean girls from somewhere, and they've had lots of practice inflicting their nastiness on Kyle.  

    

    Kim has taken over the narcissist role from her mother and Kyle is squirming and uncomfortable with it.  I'm not surprised she cries.  What nailed that for me was watching her run out that restaurant in Amsterdam.  She can't take the confrontation, she fears it.  Watching Kim be mean and smugly irrational brought back horrific memories of how my mother manipulated, but my mother would have never showed her true self like that in front of anyone.  It surprises me that Kim is showing us in TV land that side of herself.  She is showing us her dysfunctional thinking and expecting us to embrace her "logic".  Kim does not have a trace of empathy.  Sure, she's an addict.  But her behavior is narcissistic, and that's gonna be there whether she's using or not.

    

    Scapegoats tend to be very responsible people who think if they are responsible enough then everything will change, the narc will joyfully recant all those nasty things that were said and acknowledge they were wrong.  Hah.  Not going to happen.  I think Kyle is waking up to that fact and I hope she realizes that nothing she does will ever be enough for Kim.  I personally have mostly recovered from my disastrous childhood.  It's been a long trail with lots of therapy and CBT but it began with that realization for me.  I want to see Kyle get better, I think she has a chance.

    

    The most bizarre thing about all of this is that it is playing out in front of the cameras.  Kim and Kyle both have lived in the public eye all of their lives but now there is a laser focus on their relationship.  I feel a little dirty about airing my private opinions about people I will never meet or know.

Thank you for sharing this with the group. I got the shivers as I read it.  I am deeply sorry for what you had to endure.

 

Reading this made me wonder a bit about what my spouse had to endure growing up and if this is what he was dealt. Except, he will never know because his parents died and he has cut off ties with one sibling. I always appreciate when someone here takes the time to comment on their own personal experiences. It really is a window to the reality that does exist. This may be a tv show, but the Richards sisters drama began way before they were ever actresses and it will continue, for what I think, will be a very long time.

Edited April 11, 2015 by GreatKazu

[Cosmic Muffin]

I hope Kingsley biting Alexa (Alexia?) will be the watershed event for Kyle. Kyle is a great mother, devoted to her children. The bite should never have happened, and Kim is behaving in the worst way possible since the bite. I don't think Kyle could have ever walked away from her (toxic, co-dependent) relationship with Kim, but this situation almost forces her to choose between her daughter and her sister. And if that happens, there really is no choice. I will be interested to see how this plays out. Plus, whatever support Kyle and Mauricio still gave Kim, I bet that has ended totally and completely. Again, interesting to see how that plays out.

[ryebread]

I hope Kingsley biting Alexa (Alexia?) will be the watershed event for Kyle. Kyle is a great mother, devoted to her children. The bite should never have happened, and Kim is behaving in the worst way possible since the bite. I don't think Kyle could have ever walked away from her (toxic, co-dependent) relationship with Kim, but this situation almost forces her to choose between her daughter and her sister. And if that happens, there really is no choice. I will be interested to see how this plays out. Plus, whatever support Kyle and Mauricio still gave Kim, I bet that has ended totally and completely. Again, interesting to see how that plays out.

 

I can't imagine ever talking to my sister again if she had a dangerous dog, it bit my kid and she reacted the way Kim is/will.  And I freaking LOVE my sister.  But my kid comes first.  Always. 

 

I'm curious to know how my board mates who are supporting Kyle at this time will feel if Kim is signed next season and Kyle is back in her corner.  I have sympathy for Kyle and believe that she is feeling 85% pain over Kim.  But if next season she's taking Kim's garbage again, there will be no sympathy.  But of course, I won't know if she's back in Kim's corner, because if Kim is here next season, I won't be.

[GreatKazu]

I can't imagine ever talking to my sister again if she had a dangerous dog, it bit my kid and she reacted the way Kim is/will.  And I freaking LOVE my sister.  But my kid comes first.  Always. 

 

I'm curious to know how my board mates who are supporting Kyle at this time will feel if Kim is signed next season and Kyle is back in her corner.  I have sympathy for Kyle and believe that she is feeling 85% pain over Kim.  But if next season she's taking Kim's garbage again, there will be no sympathy.  But of course, I won't know if she's back in Kim's corner, because if Kim is here next season, I won't be.

I noted once that it is sometimes hard to sympathize with Kyle as she retreats back to being there for Kim. That is only because I am now on the other side of the fence. I see things differently than when I used to be just like Kyle.  I understand the reason (co-dependency) and I understand the feeling of not being able to walk away from a loved one even though it is without a doubt the very thing that one must do in these kind of relationships.  Kyle must have been told at least once what she must do with this matter. I was told many times in Al-Anon and I was told by at least two therapists: there is no alternative other than setting boundaries, expressing what it is you demand of that addict and list the consequences. When that addict fails, stick to what you laid out and issue those consequences. I get why Kyle does what she does, but it is very hard to watch it play out knowing she is not doing the right thing. But, that is the cycle of addiction and unfortunately, many people are living it. It took me over 15 years to make it to Al-Anon. Everyone is different and everyone has their breaking point. I am hoping the dog bite is the straw that broke the camel's back for Kyle. This whole dynamic is similar to domestic violence situations. You see the victim going back to their abuser time and time again and it is frustrating as hell. Until you are in that situation or unless one is educated on the ins and outs of such a situation, it seems crazy and outrageous.

 

It will be great to not see Kim on the show, although I have no doubts that Kim will make things shitty for Kyle privately. Not that she isn't already, but she will amp up the drama and amp up her victim status because she will now be blaming Kyle for no longer having a job, no income, and whatever else Kim will blame her for.

[erikdepressant]

I hope Kingsley biting Alexa (Alexia?) will be the watershed event for Kyle. Kyle is a great mother, devoted to her children. The bite should never have happened, and Kim is behaving in the worst way possible since the bite.

The Kay's the thingsley

Wherein Kim didn't catch the conscience of the Kingsley

Edited April 11, 2015 by erikdepressant

[June]

There must be a story behind the dog bite becoming infected in her hand.  Bone infections from dog bites take time and not all bites get infections deep to bone leading to immediate 5 days in the hospital.  No one questioned the dog's vet updates not current and the dog has been known to be aggressive like we saw on camera previous to Kyle's daughter visiting the home.  This family is cray cray must be more sides to the story than Kyle's or Kim's.  I'd love to hear Chad's version but Kim's never gonna let him fly free.

[SwordQueen]

I noted once that it is sometimes hard to sympathize with Kyle as she retreats back to being there for Kim. That is only because I am now on the other side of the fence. I see things differently than when I used to be just like Kyle.  I understand the reason (co-dependency) and I understand the feeling of not being able to walk away from a loved one even though it is without a doubt the very thing that one must do in these kind of relationships.  Kyle must have been told at least once what she must do with this matter. I was told many times in Al-Anon and I was told by at least two therapists: there is no alternative other than setting boundaries, expressing what it is you demand of that addict and list the consequences. When that addict fails, stick to what you laid out and issue those consequences. I get why Kyle does what she does, but it is very hard to watch it play out knowing she is not doing the right thing. But, that is the cycle of addiction and unfortunately, many people are living it. It took me over 15 years to make it to Al-Anon. Everyone is different and everyone has their breaking point. I am hoping the dog bite is the straw that broke the camel's back for Kyle. This whole dynamic is similar to domestic violence situations. You see the victim going back to their abuser time and time again and it is frustrating as hell. Until you are in that situation or unless one is educated on the ins and outs of such a situation, it seems crazy and outrageous.

 

It will be great to not see Kim on the show, although I have no doubts that Kim will make things shitty for Kyle privately. Not that she isn't already, but she will amp up the drama and amp up her victim status because she will now be blaming Kyle for no longer having a job, no income, and whatever else Kim will blame her for.

 

Thank you for this post, GreatKazu.  I agree, wholeheartedly.  These kind of unhealthy relationships (romantic or family) are so, so complicated to detach oneself from physically and even then it can take years to detach and recover psychologically.  I hope this is it for Kyle and I will be disappointed if she relents, but not necessarily disappointed in her (I guess I'd have to see what the circumstances were for it) but disappointed in the situation and that this dysfunction continues to  be such a drain on her and her family.  

[zoeysmom]

I noted once that it is sometimes hard to sympathize with Kyle as she retreats back to being there for Kim. That is only because I am now on the other side of the fence. I see things differently than when I used to be just like Kyle.  I understand the reason (co-dependency) and I understand the feeling of not being able to walk away from a loved one even though it is without a doubt the very thing that one must do in these kind of relationships.  Kyle must have been told at least once what she must do with this matter. I was told many times in Al-Anon and I was told by at least two therapists: there is no alternative other than setting boundaries, expressing what it is you demand of that addict and list the consequences. When that addict fails, stick to what you laid out and issue those consequences. I get why Kyle does what she does, but it is very hard to watch it play out knowing she is not doing the right thing. But, that is the cycle of addiction and unfortunately, many people are living it. It took me over 15 years to make it to Al-Anon. Everyone is different and everyone has their breaking point. I am hoping the dog bite is the straw that broke the camel's back for Kyle. This whole dynamic is similar to domestic violence situations. You see the victim going back to their abuser time and time again and it is frustrating as hell. Until you are in that situation or unless one is educated on the ins and outs of such a situation, it seems crazy and outrageous.

 

It will be great to not see Kim on the show, although I have no doubts that Kim will make things shitty for Kyle privately. Not that she isn't already, but she will amp up the drama and amp up her victim status because she will now be blaming Kyle for no longer having a job, no income, and whatever else Kim will blame her for.

On the high side for Kyle it seems Kyle did not give in to Kim or Whitney's request to take down the Instagram photos-they are still on their accounts.  So for once the addict did not get her way.

There must be a story behind the dog bite becoming infected in her hand.  Bone infections from dog bites take time and not all bites get infections deep to bone leading to immediate 5 days in the hospital.  No one questioned the dog's vet updates not current and the dog has been known to be aggressive like we saw on camera previous to Kyle's daughter visiting the home.  This family is cray cray must be more sides to the story than Kyle's or Kim's.  I'd love to hear Chad's version but Kim's never gonna let him fly free.

She was bitten on Halloween and hospitalized  November 3rd and then had two subsequent surgeries. 

[BluishGreen]

The Kay's the thingsley

Wherein Kim didn't catch the conscience of the Kingsley

Clever!!!

[erikdepressant]

Thanks, BluishGreen.  My next project is "Brandi's Cheeks: More Matter with Less Art."

[FozzyBear]

I hope Kingsley biting Alexa (Alexia?) will be the watershed event for Kyle. Kyle is a great mother, devoted to her children. The bite should never have happened, and Kim is behaving in the worst way possible since the bite. I don't think Kyle could have ever walked away from her (toxic, co-dependent) relationship with Kim, but this situation almost forces her to choose between her daughter and her sister. And if that happens, there really is no choice. I will be interested to see how this plays out. Plus, whatever support Kyle and Mauricio still gave Kim, I bet that has ended totally and completely. Again, interesting to see how that plays out.

So I'm actually ok with Kyle just cutting Kim off about anything really, but especially the dog bite. I'll wait to see how the discussion goes down about the dog bite next week, but I'm not hopeful that Kim will be at all reasonable about it. And that sucks. If Kingsley were my dog he would have either been given to someone better equipped to train him or put down a long time. If a dog attacked a family member? Game over. I love Pitts but Kingsley is dangerous and should be put down (poor little baby puppy, it's not his fault). This is the third time he's bitten someone? So anyway, I'm sure Mauricio is livid and ready to kick Kim to the curb. And Kyle should too, but stop with your whining and crying about how Kim is cutting you off. Just stand up to the bitch already! Tell her you're done. Tell her to come apologize to you when she's ready and be prepared for that to be never.

[zoeysmom]

So I'm actually ok with Kyle just cutting Kim off about anything really, but especially the dog bite. I'll wait to see how the discussion goes down about the dog bite next week, but I'm not hopeful that Kim will be at all reasonable about it. And that sucks. If Kingsley were my dog he would have either been given to someone better equipped to train him or put down a long time. If a dog attacked a family member? Game over. I love Pitts but Kingsley is dangerous and should be put down (poor little baby puppy, it's not his fault). This is the third time he's bitten someone? So anyway, I'm sure Mauricio is livid and ready to kick Kim to the curb. And Kyle should too, but stop with your whining and crying about how Kim is cutting you off. Just stand up to the bitch already! Tell her you're done. Tell her to come apologize to you when she's ready and be prepared for that to be never.

When I first heard Kim was angry over the dog bite, I thought oh Mauricio laid down the law about indulging Kim and her ego  and wants and vicious dog.  Then when I  watched the clip-it had nothing to do with sparing the dog's life, it was all about idiot megamaniacal Kim worrying about some image she thinks she is trying to protect.  Again, she let her insane jealousy over Kyle get the best of her.  All she was missing was the foam coming out of her mouth while she spewed Instagram and followers.  That either came from one of her kids or Brandi.  It sounded like maybe Kathy was relaying info about the happenings in the hospital room.  Kim was upset that Kyle's daughter was getting attention and she wasn't.  And now she goes after an 18 year old.  Sick fuck.

 

News flash for Kim and Kathy Hilton for the most part you have horrible reputations.  Kim as the world's most self involved sister and addict in denial and Kathy as the most self-absorbed mother who has managed to raise an incredible brood of entitled talentless children.  How dare Kyle break out of the mold.

[film noire]

My mother controlled and manipulated me, my sister, and my half-brother. Everything was my fault.  Everything.  It was all skewed against me, and my sister was taught to think I was a loser.  We loved each other but never really trusted each other.  We were taught to envy and to compete for our mom's attention.  It was really pretty ugly.  My mother was mean, mean, mean and wickedly critical, but only behind closed doors.  She was sweet as pie when there was anyone around, including my father.  She was a beautiful woman and she liked having her own way, and she got it.  Narcs have no empathy and get off on playing cruel games.  Children are not real or human to someone with NPD.  They are extensions of the narc.  Narcs need their golden children (to groom to follow them, live through them, spoil them, and threaten to take it all alway on the slightest infraction) and their scapegoats (to torment, to blame, to vent, to tempt with the hope of an acceptance that never comes).  Narcissism is like family DNA.  Kids raised by a narcissist tend to either become narcissists or enablers, and pass it down to their children.

 

Your whole post is written with such clarity and force, Reo -- we grew up in the same emotional neighbourhood, and it's not easy to nail down that sick, damaging (and endlessly baroque) dynamic -- you did it beautifully.

[Reo]

It is a mold, and a fairly rigid one with well defined boundaries for the victim and none for the narc. Kyle deserves major credit if she sees through the ploys that have been used effectively on her since childhood and breaks free.  Although this reality tv twist is something new in the world of therapy, I think.  Kyle sees Kim's behavior very clearly because it has been filmed.  Kim can't deny it, deflect it, or gaslight about it because it is there on repeat.  She can see the cognitive dissonance in ways that most people in her position never have the opportunity to, and she can go back over and over again until she does see it.

 

It's incredibly hard for the scapegoat to break free, mostly because they have been very well trained to hold dysfunctional thoughts about reality.  These thoughts rarely make any sense.

 

For example, my mother taught my sister and I that my sister was pretty (although not as beautiful as mom, of course), and that I was smart.  She used to ask my sister why she couldn't be smart like me and ask me why I couldn't be pretty like my sister, implying that my sister was dumb and I was ugly.  Actually my sister and I were both intelligent and attractive girls but we grew up to believe my mother's version of reality.  

 

My sister, who earned a masters, thought of herself as an idiot.  And I hated my body and my face, and feared everyone was laughing at me.  I look at pictures of myself in my twenties and I feel sick inside at the waste of my vital years.  I was definitely NOT ugly and my sister was NOT dumb.  My intelligence didn't count, though, any more than my sister's beauty.  My mother told us that only perfection was acceptable, but we were incapable of achieving her standards.

 

Not only did I define my self worth totally on what I thought I lacked, I found myself always lacking in the only thing that mattered, my appearance.  My mother continued to use that against us, along with other shame and blame based manipulation, until well into her old age.  When I graduated from college with honors at the age of 50, she sent me a check for $50, told me to buy a new dress and not embarrass her on stage.  I didn't stand up to her until I was in my early fifties.   My sister never did.

 

These patterns between the sisters have been formed by their mother and honed by a lifetime of use.  Kim has moved into her mother's central position and expects to be in charge.  The Queen is dead, long live the Queen.  Kathy supports her as princess.  Kyle is staff.

 

But here's the interesting thing.  Kim has become so comfortable in front of the camera that she's starting to try to blatantly manipulate the audience, too.  She's not hiding any behavior and expects us to accept her version of reality as fact.  She's been triangulating with her ally Brandi (and Brandi is not the top dog so to speak in that relationship) to attack her targets while she sits by and smirks.  She abuses Kyle by accusing her of disloyalty on air and comforts her as soon as she breaks down.  Rinse, repeat, and now openly scoff at the tears.  Now she thinks she can control all of us as well as everyone in her immediate orbit.  Silly, silly narc.  We can watch your tricks over and over, and like any magic trick you can see through them after a bit.  And they don't make her look good at all.

 

One thing I want you folks to be aware of is that despite what it looks like, in my opinion she doesn't hate Kyle any more than she loves her.  She doesn't have empathy at all and feels nothing if it doesn't concern her.  Kyle doesn't matter, she isn't real, and only the buffing of Kim's image and Kyle's unquestioning support are priorities.

 

Kim does hold Kyle in contempt and enjoys pushing her buttons though.  You have to have a hobby.

[harrie]

Reo, your writeup is so scary and also fascinating - again, thanks for doing the play by play.

 

Any idea why the middle child moves into queen position?  Perhaps because I'm the baby of the family, I always envisioned the eldest taking over the crown -- in other words, I thought Kathy would be the new Big Kathy.  Do you think Kim's personality is predispositioned to assume the throne, birth order be damned? 

 

Somehow, breaking this stuff down makes the happenings of the show easier to swallow -- for me, anyway.

Edited April 12, 2015 by harrie

[notnowimbusy]

Reo, your writeup is so scary and also fascinating - again, thanks for doing the play by play.

 

Any idea why the middle child moves into queen position?  Perhaps because I'm the baby of the family, I always envisioned the eldest taking over the crown -- in other words, I thought Kathy would be the new Big Kathy.  Do you think Kim's personality is predispositioned to assume the throne, birth order be damned? 

 

Somehow, breaking this stuff down makes the happenings of the show easier to swallow -- for me, anyway.

I think Kim gained the position of "queen" because of her earning power.   Kathy married well, but Kim was still earning money at that point.  I would like to know why she married Monty so young.  Pregnant?  To get away from Big Kathy.  Interesting that they are so close, but the marriage only lasted a year or so.  

[harrie]

For some reason, I think Kim was coerced into dropping Monty to marry a richer, better-connected guy -- maybe the Davis?  (Or am I adding extra drama to her life where none is necessary?)   So it's possible that if Kim can love anyone, she really loves/loved Monny and remains close to him.  Just a thought.  

[Reo]

Little Kathy was golden child ("Little Kathy" pffffft ) until Kim came along and was demoted.  Kim had more talent, was an adorable little moppet, and was trainable.  Big Kathy would make her most marketable child (in terms of image and return) her golden child.  She probably saw Kim as the child most likely to buff her own image, the one that would make her look like a perfect mother to the world.  (It didn't, that was delusion.  Her reputation as a stage mother saw to that.)  So she would build Kim up on one hand and make her sisters her subordinates, and undermine her to make her insecure of her place.  She probably praised Kim to the skies to make her sisters jealous and resentful.

 

In my case, I was never the golden child for two reasons even though I was HER eldest child.  (My poor half brother was not her child and was completely ignored and neglected.  He lived a sad short fucked up life.)  First, my mom gave up a really glamorous career with a lot of attention to become a fifties wife and mom, and it enraged her.  She blamed me for it.  I also had blonde hair and blue eyes like  my father and looked nothing like her.  My sister was mini-me appearance wise.  So I got constantly criticized for my looks and my sister took top position.

 

Kim is a "star" narc.  Everything and everyone revolves around her.  She was taught at an early age that what she wanted to keep herself happy would be given to her.  She still thinks she's cute as a button and talented as fuck, and horribly, horribly mistreated and undervalued.  She feels unreasoning jealousy when confronted by people with actual talent and success.  She acts the part of a victim so that she can blame other people for her flaws and inadequacies - she's perfect after all - and then uses guilt and shame to control them.  She is labeling to belittle ("beast" - really?) She is bitter and angry that she doesn't hold the position she once did and is unraveling.  

 

In my opinion, of course.  ;D  Thank you all for your kind words.  It is a little triggering to write this stuff down.  It's not wise to poke the crazy.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Reo

[ryebread]

Great posts, Reo.  I've read them all and I agree with the other posters who have said that it somehow makes what's going on with the Richards sisters understandable.

 

So, how do you feel about Kim?  Assuming that what we've heard about her upbringing is true, do you have any empathy for her?  Sometimes I'm not comfortable with how I feel about her knowing that she probably suffered, in similar ways that you did, at the hands of her mother.

[Reo]

Of course I have empathy for her, unlike her, I'm not a narc.  She had no choice as a child.  She does now but she's so damaged unless she owns her behavior she won't heal.  NPD is not easy to treat or cure, it's the scapegoats that tend to get away if they are lucky.

 

I also wouldn't trust her or want her anywhere near me.  I see her behavior and it makes me feel coldly sick inside.  I know what she's capable of, and trust me, if I'm right, we haven't seen a tenth of it.

[notnowimbusy]

I always find that some of Kim's comments, especially to Brandi, in the earlier seasons, interesting.  "You are a dirty little nasty girl"  "You are a very bad little girl"  "you have such a pretty face, but such a nasty mouth".   Those are thing that are told to a child.    I suspect this is a Mommie Dearest kind of situation.   Remember when Kim was talking to Vince about some role she was up for that required to her to play tennis, and she couldn't, but her mother told her to lie and say she could.    Kim was the family gravy train, and as she outgrew the cute little kid roles, the pressure mounted to maintain her "stardom".    As she turned 18, she started on another path - marriage for money. 

 

She always falls back on her role of being a mother, but as it turned out, due to her addiction issues, she was a bad one.  No longer the "star", and not seemingly able to cope fulltime with being a single mom, etc, she just spiraled out of control.  Her kids love her, no question, but from the episodes of Kimberly going off to college, it's clear that her kids feel the responsibility to care for her.  Watching Kimberley go off to college isn't the usual situation.  The kid is usually apprehensive, and the parent is the strong one (crying on the inside), but the concern on Kimberly's face was "what's she going to do when I'm not there to take care of her". 

[GreatKazu]

I always find that some of Kim's comments, especially to Brandi, in the earlier seasons, interesting.  "You are a dirty little nasty girl"  "You are a very bad little girl"  "you have such a pretty face, but such a nasty mouth".   Those are thing that are told to a child.    I suspect this is a Mommie Dearest kind of situation.  

 

I mentioned this very thing on another thread. Great minds? lol

 

Something about the way Kim points that finger, talks in that tone of voice, it is very stern and reminds me of MD. The scene in the airplane on the way to Amsterdam when LisaR and her got into it. the way Kim said, "STOP!" and whatever came after that along with her chin going up a bit and her facial expression, I imagined that was how Kim and Kyle's mother spoke to them.

[film noire]

I always find that some of Kim's comments, especially to Brandi, in the earlier seasons, interesting.  "You are a dirty little nasty girl"  "You are a very bad little girl"  "you have such a pretty face, but such a nasty mouth".   Those are thing that are told to a child.    I suspect this is a Mommie Dearest kind of situation. 

 

 

I agree. And since that rage at Mommie had to go somewhere, Kim passed it down to Kyle -- colonized her -- and I have no doubt Kyle suffered great abuse at Kim's hands.  Five years difference is a large gap when it comes to being the younger child; all sorts of damage can be inflicted without anyone being the wiser.

 

I also think Kim is -- deep in her sick soul -- experiencing  a kind of satisfaction that Alexia was harmed. Narcissists gain enormous pleasure from hurting the loved ones of their victims & setting up a "Pick me over them" mentality (i.e., hurt your husband, child, dearest friend to get to you, then demand you validate *their* version of what happened, not the factual damage they have inflicted.)  Kim wanted to hurt Kyle, and she chose her niece as the means of delivery. She's as toxic as Chernobyl, the day the reactors blew.

Edited April 12, 2015 by film noire

[Reo]

I agree. And since that rage at Mommie had to go somewhere, Kim passed it down to Kyle -- colonized her -- and I have no doubt Kyle suffered great abuse at Kim's hands.  Five years difference is a large gap when it comes to being the younger child; all sorts of damage can be inflicted without anyone being the wiser.

 

I also think Kim is -- deep in her sick soul -- experiencing  a kind of satisfaction that Alexia was harmed. Narcissists gain enormous pleasure from hurting the loved ones of their victims & setting up a "Pick me over them" mentality (i.e., hurt your husband, child, dearest friend to get to you, then demand you validate *their* version of what happened, not the factual damage they have inflicted.)  Kim wanted to hurt Kyle, and she chose her niece as the means of delivery. She's as toxic as Chernobyl, the day the reactors blew.

 

I think you are exactly right.  When my mother was in her final years, she kept urging my sister to leave her teenaged children to come live with her and tend her.  She told my sister they weren't much anyway.

 

There's nothing they won't stoop to to satisfy their need for pain.  While making themselves look great, of course.   At least in their own eyes.

[zoeysmom]

I always find that some of Kim's comments, especially to Brandi, in the earlier seasons, interesting.  "You are a dirty little nasty girl"  "You are a very bad little girl"  "you have such a pretty face, but such a nasty mouth".   Those are thing that are told to a child.    I suspect this is a Mommie Dearest kind of situation.   Remember when Kim was talking to Vince about some role she was up for that required to her to play tennis, and she couldn't, but her mother told her to lie and say she could.    Kim was the family gravy train, and as she outgrew the cute little kid roles, the pressure mounted to maintain her "stardom".    As she turned 18, she started on another path - marriage for money. 

 

She always falls back on her role of being a mother, but as it turned out, due to her addiction issues, she was a bad one.  No longer the "star", and not seemingly able to cope fulltime with being a single mom, etc, she just spiraled out of control.  Her kids love her, no question, but from the episodes of Kimberly going off to college, it's clear that her kids feel the responsibility to care for her.  Watching Kimberley go off to college isn't the usual situation.  The kid is usually apprehensive, and the parent is the strong one (crying on the inside), but the concern on Kimberly's face was "what's she going to do when I'm not there to take care of her". 

The Countess called Bethenny a nasty girl.  Strange way to phrase things. 

 

Kim did not want people to know that Kimberly lived with John (primarily).  Just another secret or misdirection that Kim expects others to help her portray.  I also thought it weird that Super mom Kim looked forward to her daughter bringing home her laundry for Kim to do.  There are times I think Kim tries too hard.

[zoeysmom]

I always find that some of Kim's comments, especially to Brandi, in the earlier seasons, interesting.  "You are a dirty little nasty girl"  "You are a very bad little girl"  "you have such a pretty face, but such a nasty mouth".   Those are thing that are told to a child.    I suspect this is a Mommie Dearest kind of situation.   Remember when Kim was talking to Vince about some role she was up for that required to her to play tennis, and she couldn't, but her mother told her to lie and say she could.    Kim was the family gravy train, and as she outgrew the cute little kid roles, the pressure mounted to maintain her "stardom".    As she turned 18, she started on another path - marriage for money. 

 

She always falls back on her role of being a mother, but as it turned out, due to her addiction issues, she was a bad one.  No longer the "star", and not seemingly able to cope fulltime with being a single mom, etc, she just spiraled out of control.  Her kids love her, no question, but from the episodes of Kimberly going off to college, it's clear that her kids feel the responsibility to care for her.  Watching Kimberley go off to college isn't the usual situation.  The kid is usually apprehensive, and the parent is the strong one (crying on the inside), but the concern on Kimberly's face was "what's she going to do when I'm not there to take care of her". 

The Countess called Bethenny a nasty girl.  Strange way to phrase things. 

 

Kim did not want people to know that Kimberly lived with John (primarily).  Just another secret or misdirection that Kim expects others to help her portray.  I also thought it weird that Super mom Kim looked forward to her daughter bringing home her laundry for Kim to do.  There are times I think Kim tries too hard.

[ryebread]

Kim did not want people to know that Kimberly lived with John (primarily). 

 

That's something I've always seen discussed here as fact but I don't remember seeing it on the show, although I could have missed it.  Was this reported as truth in the tabloids somewhere?

[Wings]

I have no issues with Kyle other than her fighting with Kim.  She and Mauricio need to gather their wits and together form a game plan to handle Kim.  Oh, and keep it off TV, for fuck sake.  It isn't entertaining at all.  

 

Brandi is just a gnat flying around in my ear.  Her behavior is so exaggerated that I cannot take her seriously and neither should anyone else on that cast.   She does not raise my blood pressure.  I often like her outrageous antics which I think are staged, for the most part, by Bravo.  She broke the 4th wall last week by saying she brought conflict to the table.  

 

I like LisaVP, always have and like the addition of Eileen. 

 

Rinna.  She stirs the pot and I am fine being irritated by her.  I don't like her but I don't have to like everyone. 

 

Yolanda, meh.  She is okay.  So sorry she is ill, though. 

 

Kim, go away.  

Edited April 12, 2015 by wings707

[WireWrap]

I have no issues with Kyle other than her fighting with Kim.  She and Mauricio need gather their wits and together form a game plan to handle Kim.  Oh, and keep it off TV, for fuck sake.  It isn't entertaining at all.  

 

Brandi is just a gnat flying around in my ear.  Her behavior is so exaggerated that I cannot take her seriously and neither should anyone else on that cast.   She does not raise my blood pressure.  I often like her outrageous antics which I think are staged, for the most part, by Bravo.  She broke the 4th wall last week by saying she brought conflict to the table.  

 

I like LisaVP, always have and like the addition of Eileen. 

 

Rinna.  She stirs the pot and I am fine being irritated by her.  I don't like her but I don't have to like everyone. 

 

Yolanda, meh.  She is okay.  So sorry she is ill, though. 

 

Kim, go away.  

I agree with how you see each of the HWs but find that Brandi's antics lower the show more, to gutter level, than what I want it to go. LOL I am hoping that LisaR is Brandi's replacement, she will "go there" but has the lifestyle to keep the show out of the gutter IMO.

 

They, Bravo, need to fire Brandi/Kim and keep it centered on HWs with the finances, homes and lifestyles that come with the address/area.  JMO 

[zoeysmom]

That's something I've always seen discussed here as fact but I don't remember seeing it on the show, although I could have missed it.  Was this reported as truth in the tabloids somewhere?

Season 1 Episode 1 Kim and Kyle are talking and Kyle said, "now that Kimberly is with John,", is one mention.  Season 2 near the end of the season Kim breaks down in Kathy Hilton's store and talks about her kids won't  be around Ken.  Pictures posted by Kimberly and her father-Kimberly stayed with her father because he didn't move around like Kim did four times in 18 months.  Obviously Kimberly lived with John until graduation since Kim was living at the Hilton a great deal of the time.  Will there ever be an out and out admission that Kim's kids didn't live with her probably not. Oh and John, Kimberly father's did say the night of her graduation party something to the effect she had not been home in awhile.  I think that was his way of letting people know who had been there for Kimberly.

[Wings]

I agree with how you see each of the HWs but find that Brandi's antics lower the show more, to gutter level, than what I want it to go. LOL I am hoping that LisaR is Brandi's replacement, she will "go there" but has the lifestyle to keep the show out of the gutter IMO.

 

They, Bravo, need to fire Brandi/Kim and keep it centered on HWs with the finances, homes and lifestyles that come with the address/area.  JMO 

 

 

This is the only housewife show I watch.  Theresa was the table flipper on NJ so it may be a requisite character.  Do any of the others have one loose cannon?  

[GreatKazu]

That's something I've always seen discussed here as fact but I don't remember seeing it on the show, although I could have missed it.  Was this reported as truth in the tabloids somewhere?

Are you asking if it is true Kimberly lived with her father or are you asking if it is fact that Kim was trying to hide that information?