S02.E07: Municipal Violations

[Athena]

If you have money, committing a misdemeanor may pose you a minor inconvenience. If you don’t, it can ruin your life.

[trow125]

Just a quick heads up, "Girls" and "Looking" are both running long tonight, so LWT will air from 11:15-11:45.

Edited to add: According to their Twitter feed, LWT will be off next week (March 29). Everyone should still watch HBO that night so they can see "Going Clear"!

Edited March 23, 2015 by trow125

[enlightenedbum]

Privatization of basic government functions, everybody!  Ugh.  Fucking Reagan and fucking Reaganism.

[Delwyn]

I really liked that the show touched on the Ferguson report as part of the systemic issue, without giving it the focus of the whole piece, which I bet would have been an easy rant. The Starbucks segment covered race pretty handily without having to say "can you believe the government in Ferguson?"

Also, is the private penalty collection an American industry (asking as a Canadian)? I did not know this was a thing. Shouldn't 100% of the people in Manhattan be in jail for jaywalking by now? Think of the income for the city!

[enlightenedbum]

 

Also, is the private penalty collection an American industry (asking as a Canadian)? I did not know this was a thing. Shouldn't 100% of the people in Manhattan be in jail for jaywalking by now? Think of the income for the city!

I'm not entirely sure about private penalty collection (though I'd guess yes, we've had a privatization fetish for almost forty years now), but private prisons are DEFINITELY an industry.  A pretty big one.  Which lobbies pretty vociferously and bribetastically for harsher sentencing so they have more "customers."  As private penalty collection is a related industry I'd bet most of those people do that too.

[ALenore]

The new picture at the beginning this week was Robert "Jinx" Durst, the multiple murderer who was arrested after the HBO series recorded him confessing to the murders.   He's a millionaire, and it's obvious that's the only reason he wasn't put in jail a long time ago.  I'm pretty sure his picture was used as an example of someone who is able to avoid prison, even for henious crimes due to his wealth. 

[AshleyLyn]

So been a long time lurker and finally decided to get an account. I love this show and I pretty much marathoners s1 when I found this show. As much as the municipal segment angered me, so did the new Hampshire lawmakers and 4th grader segment. Christ, these were kids and the lawmakers were complete asses.

Edited March 23, 2015 by AshleyLyn

[Victor the Crab]

Here's hoping the next class of grade schoolers learn from this and create a draft that would declare New Hampshire state legislators "cootie filled poopy faces".

[dusang]

I haven't seen the episode yet but just hearing you guys talk about politicians and fourth graders makes me think of "Mr. Lisa Goes to Washington" -- Cesspool on the Potomac indeed!

[HelenBaby]

So been a long time lurker and finally decided to get an account. I love this show and I pretty much marathoners s1 when I found this show. As much as the municipal segment battered me, so did the new Hampshire lawmakers and 4th grader segment. Christ, these were kids and the lawmakers were complete asses.

I read about this story last week. Why? Why was it important to make political points about something so mundane? I hope their constituents reamed them a good one.

[AshleyLyn]

John looked kind of terrified standing next to that bird too. Gorgeous animal.

[dusang]

Just watched the YouTube video of the Municipal Violations.  I'm so glad the final commercial made the point that it totally has to do with race -- the minute that guy said he got a ticket for "loitering" I was like, "that's literally a ticket for standing while black."

[ganesh]

As a supplement, PBS news did a comprehensive piece on this topic a while ago focusing on the 'debtors prison' concept. 

[dusang]

The Slate Money podcast also covered government debt collectors briefly a few weeks ago, which also links to a CNN piece on the subject.

Edited March 23, 2015 by dusang

[Traveller519]

I thought I wasn't going to be able to get on board with the topic early on, but I got there as he took it to the excessive fines placed on people for not paying your ticket.

 

But alas, as people campaign for lower taxes that revenue needs to come from somewhere. As abhorent as it is that a city expects 66% of its income to come from fines, I don't think it's an issue of cutting 66% of spending.

[LisaBLingLing]

I thought I wasn't going to be able to get on board with the topic early on, but I got there as he took it to the excessive fines placed on people for not paying your ticket.

 

But alas, as people campaign for lower taxes that revenue needs to come from somewhere. As abhorent as it is that a city expects 66% of its income to come from fines, I don't think it's an issue of cutting 66% of spending.

 

Or, you could cut spending.  Let's face it, if a cop has time to issue tickets for loitering, you've got too many police officers on the payroll. 

[khyber]

The count in the N.H. vote on the kids bill for the hawk was something like 133 vs 160.   (I looked it up and N.H. has 400 state reps) So my question is ,why does a state with a population of less then 1.5 million need that many state reps?  No wonder so many were boneheads, it looks like every family must have someone in government. 

 

As for the fines and fees, this is a direct result of the "no taxes, no matter what" group of people. My idiot in-laws in Idaho are very proud of paying almost nothing in property taxes and then they bitch about the poor quality of the public schools and roads. 

[dusang]

Or, you could cut spending.  Let's face it, if a cop has time to issue tickets for loitering, you've got too many police officers on the payroll. 

 

Unfortunately, redundant policing is never the first wave of cutbacks.

[LisaBLingLing]

Unfortunately, redundant policing is never the first wave of cutbacks.

You know what? At the local level we could absolutely make it so. I know it's really hard to believe, but we own the government and not the other way around. The best way, IMHO, to change things at the local level is to stop voting for incumbents. All of them. Even the ones you like. Even the ones in your party. Nothing will change until we make it change. Make it change by voting them out.

Edited March 23, 2015 by LisaBLingLing

[walnutqueen]

I got nailed for turning right on a red light without coming to a full stop by a red light camera back in 2010 (long story).  The fine was $450.00.  That was 450 meals for my feral cats, and a huge financial hit for me.  Shortly after I'd paid the fine, the red light cameras in that particular SoCal municipality were taken down due to public pressure.

 

Red tailed hawks are magnificent creatures.  I've rescued several, and love them despite their fierce hunting instincts.

[enlightenedbum]

 

The count in the N.H. vote on the kids bill for the hawk was something like 133 vs 160.   (I looked it up and N.H. has 400 state reps) So my question is ,why does a state with a population of less then 1.5 million need that many state reps?  No wonder so many were boneheads, it looks like every family must have someone in government.

More representation is a good thing.  The US House needs to drastically increase in size but it was stupidly capped almost 100 years ago.  So now it's an incredibly unrepresentative institution.  At the very least, there shouldn't be any Senators representing fewer people than any individual member of the House.

 

The problem is that New Hampshire voters like to be seen as independent from the rest of New England, if you know what I'm saying.

[attica]

(I looked it up and N.H. has 400 state reps) So my question is ,why does a state with a population of less then 1.5 million need that many state reps?  No wonder so many were boneheads, it looks like every family must have someone in government.

 

My sister recently moved to NH, and she works in the state capital (not for gov't). This is actually the running joke there, that every citizen gets to do at least one term in the Leg. It's a part time gig, poorly paid, and turnover is super high (compared to other incumbency sitches). So the opportunity for crackpottery is also high, since many of the elected are non-professionals, and therefore have no idea what they're doing. Having so many of them spreads the crackpottery thin, I guess -- no individual accumulates that much power.

[AshleyLyn]

My sister recently moved to NH, and she works in the state capital (not for gov't). This is actually the running joke there, that every citizen gets to do at least one term in the Leg. It's a part time gig, poorly paid, and turnover is super high (compared to other incumbency sitches). So the opportunity for crackpottery is also high, since many of the elected are non-professionals, and therefore have no idea what they're doing. Having so many of them spreads the crackpottery thin, I guess -- no individual accumulates that much power.

That could explain why some were just asshats to the kids and their bill. I wanted to chuck a shoe at the tv for how rude they were. Nice impression of politics to go e towards kids about politics guys. *sigh*

And I'm very much glad I don't drive. I wouldn't be able to afford a fine unless it was 5 dollars because I usually only have about 35 bucks to play with when it comes to paychecks and then I need that to last until next paycheck so if I get fined I'd have one hell of a time paying the damn thing.

Ugh I can't remember the other segments now cause those two ended up taking most of my attention

[stillshimpy]

I'd already heard an NPR piece about the privatization of fines.  It practically made me want to drive my car into a lake while I was listening to it then and it was almost more depressing now.  There was a long interview with that poor sod who went to jail for 70 days because he stole a $2.00 can of beer, including his apology to the store owner.  

 

Anyway, the show was light on laughs for me, that's for sure.  

 

Although for fans of The Wire, it was a good chance to whip out a few uses of "Dickensian Aspect" .  Argh.  

 

 

 

Also, is the private penalty collection an American industry (asking as a Canadian)?

 

Yes, essentially.  But then so are prisons.  You have to go all the way back to Reagan's administration, but a huge push from the right for the privatization of various governmental functions was on.   It had to do with not trusting government , etc, etc.  So, particularly the right, began to favor a contract bid system for a lot of things, like the housing of prisoners and the juvenile detention centers.   This also helps feed the beast known as Special Interest Groups.  

 

It's led to things like a $35.00 steam-rolling into a $300.00 dollar offense for "processing" fees.  But it is an industry at this point.  

 

I almost don't have the energy to even talk about what happened with the Juvenile Detention system because of that and if you really want to talk about enslaving people via poverty due to small infractions, in this case by minors, there's actually a terrible documentary about it floating around on Netflix.  The documentary is quite good, it just might rob you of your will to live for a bit.  

 

To pare that one down, a judge in a poorer area of the country (North Eastern Pennsylvania) was caught taking bribes from these private contractors (since they are paid by the head for the keeping of prisoners of any variety and this holds true for adult offenders also) ....to sentence young people to incredibly stiff and life ruining penalties for relatively tiny infractions. One girl's life was almost entirely derailed for a page on MySpace mocking her high-school principal.  Here's an article on it, in case you want to get a better view into one of the ways the privatized fine system goes hand-in-hand with one of the ways that poor sucker ended up in jail for more than two months for stealing a beer.   The fine system and the "we pay private companies to house our prisoners" system have a truly symbiotic relationship with each other and are just plain-old parasites  to everyone else.  

 

One of the things that has led to is a female inmate who had a C-section performed, and had sugar packets from the cafeteria sprinkled into the incision as a form of antibiotic.  That's actually a treatment form from before the advent of antibiotics , but they were literally using sugar packets from food service.    When that report aired on Jon Stewart's show, I kept wondering, "How did I know that?  How did I already know that sugar was used ...?" and about two days later I realized it was from reading James Herriot's books.  All Creatures Great and Small and the like.  It was a treatment used on livestock.  

 

John Oliver already did a report on the bastard cousin of this industry: Paycheck Loans.  .

 

Also, a resounding "What the hell is wrong with you?  Look into medications for whatever ails you, immediately!" to that State Rep.  who tried to turn that state bird talk into an anti-planned parenthood rant.  Apparently having decided to take that misinformation from the floor of congress, about what constitutes 90% o what PP doe and run with the ball of lunacy for a touchdown in the moron Olympics.  

 

Presumably someone tried to cure a brain infection he had with liberal use of Dominos Sugar. 

Edited March 24, 2015 by stillshimpy

[charlieboo]

A good friend of mine lives in L.A. and is semi-retired (limited income) and racks up quite a few minor traffic tickets. He always has the choice to pay a fine or do community service. So he has logged many a day working in soup kitchens and other charities that benefit the poor. This always struck me as a perfect solution and gives people a choice of which option works best for them. It also helps the city's bottom line as it provides plenty of volunteers and so eliminates the need to hire as many employees.

I never understood why other (all?) cities don't do the same thing. I would think this would make a great platform issue for a mayor, or even governor, to run on.

[Quickbeam]

I was fascinated by the fines discussion. I worked in driver's licensing for my state for 10 years...people would lose their driver's license due to library fines or restitution for crimes their underage kids committed! Truancy! My state started tacking on all kinds of things to the driver's license (child support, student loans, etc). the license was never meant to be a lever to pry small amounts of money from someone. 

[Gulftastic]

Tax the poor to soak the rich, and the cycle keeps rolling on.

[trow125]

A good friend of mine lives in L.A. and is semi-retired (limited income) and racks up quite a few minor traffic tickets. He always has the choice to pay a fine or do community service. So he has logged many a day working in soup kitchens and other charities that benefit the poor. This always struck me as a perfect solution and gives people a choice of which option works best for them. It also helps the city's bottom line as it provides plenty of volunteers and so eliminates the need to hire as many employees.

Maybe it's a California thing? We have that too, up here in Northern CA. I've worked with lots of people doing community service at a couple local organizations, and some of them have enjoyed it so much that they've become regular volunteers. It's not always easy -- for a while, I did a Meals on Wheels route with a nurse who came directly from her night shift -- but for people who are living paycheck to paycheck, I'm sure it's far preferable to paying an onerous fine or going into a never-ending cycle of debt. Of course, there's no profit for private companies (or municipalities dependent on the money they get from fines) when people are working off their penalties by stocking shelves at a food bank, so I can see why this isn't an option everywhere.

[Julia]

Probably too little too late, but Justice is taking on states using poor people as an ATM

[OneWhoLurks]

Quote

 

Deputy Attorney General Sally Yates announced the decision on Thursday in a memo that instructs officials to either decline to renew the contracts for private prison operators when they expire or “substantially reduce” the contracts’ scope. The goal, Yates wrote, is “reducing — and ultimately ending — our use of privately operated prisons.”

“They simply do not provide the same level of correctional services, programs, and resources; they do not save substantially on costs; and as noted in a recent report by the Department’s Office of Inspector General, they do not maintain the same level of safety and security,” Yates wrote.

While experts said the directive is significant, privately run federal prisons house only a fraction of the overall population of inmates. The vast majority of the incarcerated in America are housed in state prisons — rather than federal ones — and Yates’ memo does not apply to any of those, even the ones that are privately run. Nor does it apply to Immigration and Customs Enforcement and U.S. Marshals Service detainees, who are technically in the federal system but not under the purview of the federal Bureau of Prisons.

 

Quote

 

“This is a huge deal. It is historic and groundbreaking,” said David Fathi, director of the ACLU National Prison Project. “For the last 35 years, the use of private prisons in this country has crept ever upward, and this is a startling and major reversal of that trend, and one that we hope will be followed by others.”

The Justice Department’s inspector general last week released a critical report concluding that privately operated facilities incurred more safety and security incidents than those run by the federal Bureau of Prisons. The private facilities, for example, had higher rates of assaults — both by inmates on other inmates and by inmates on staff — and had eight times as many contraband cellphones confiscated each year on average, according to the report.

Disturbances in the facilities, the report said, led in recent years to “extensive property damage, bodily injury, and the death of a Correctional Officer.” The report listed several examples of mayhem at private facilities, including a May 2012 riot at the Adams County Correctional Center in Mississippi in which 20 people were injured and a correctional officer killed. That incident, according to the report, involved 250 inmates who were upset about low-quality food and medical care.

 

Bonus points to anybody who can make sense of this quote:

Quote

Issa Arnita, a spokesman for Management and Training Corporation, said the company was “disappointed” to learn about the Justice Department’s decision. “If the DOJ’s decision to end the use of contract prisons were based solely on declining inmate populations, there may be some justification, but to base this decision on cost, safety and security, and programming is wrong,” he said in a statement.

Justice Department says it will end use of private prisons