S01.E15: Out Of Time

[ribboninthesky1]

Barry, for one. He knew Caitlin was supposed to be distracting wells. He knew wells was somehow there. He didn't know wells was so obvious in leaving Caitlin but he might expect her to send Barry to check it out just in case and Barry is the only person that's any match for wells. And if he hadn't been distracted, that would have happened. I'm not going to fault Cisco for not doing anything else when anything else he would have done would have been worse than useless. But we may have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

I'm going on what happened in the episode. Barry didn't know what Cisco planned to do.  The last time Cisco and Barry talked was Cisco calling him from the police station to warn him about Weather Guy.  If Cisco wanted to have Barry as back-up, he had plenty of time and opportunity to contact Barry himself, especially since he waited until the next morning to do anything.  Why depend on Caitlin to do it when she's focused on distracting Wells? As for Cisco knowing where Wells was, I guess we can assume that he and Caitlin communicated off-screen that she was with Wells. Otherwise, he had little info to go on regarding Wells' location.   

 

Barry was at the hospital the evening before, and with Iris were hanging out at the house before they knew Joe was kidnapped, so he wasn't distracted the entire time.  

 

This show has Team Flash constantly in communication with Barry. The writers decided in this episode to have none of them talk after Barry left the lab for plot contrivance. 

[Moviesnob]

Once I realized they were giving us literally everything most of the audience has been waiting for the entire season, I realized they would be doing a take-back.  At least it's better to do it now in the first season than on your 100th episode of suffering through so much Lana Lang and feeling so FREE that they were telling all the big secrets just to have it all ripped away and you get so mad you have to stop watching for a while.  

 

Here's hoping they handle it better than other shows. I am usually all over romance, but the ones offered so far by the Flash have not had much heat to them. I don't care much, and seriously I care about all the romance.

[Bandolero]

AND wasn't it just recently that Barry declared to Iris that he was over her. He even ate a hot pepper for Linda trying to woo her back. So he was actively lying to Iris AND Linda. If (according to him) he couldn't stop thinking about Iris then he was actively leading on Linda even after she wanted out. Why did he have to go through all that drama with the pepper to get her back when he knew Iris was always on his mind. I just can't with Barry right now. He is cute and dorky... but like someone else mentioned he is pretty immature when it comes to relationships and dating.

[Mz Anthrope]

And I am also questioning Eddie actually getting involved with the daughter of his partner.   That would seem to me to be verboten.  Those two have to trust and depend on each other for their lives.  Any friction due to Joe's daughter would certainly effect that.  Something hinks the back of my neck telling me that's not just a bad choice on Eddie's part.  I don't know from beans as I've never read any of the comics or anything, but it just doesn't fit somehow.

[Shanna]

I'm going on what happened in the episode. Barry didn't know what Cisco planned to do. .... Why depend on Caitlin to do it when she's focused on distracting Wells?

As for Cisco knowing where Wells was, I guess we can assume that he and Caitlin communicated off-screen that she was with Wells. Otherwise, he had little info to go on regarding Wells' location. .

First, I was thinking that Caitlin would potentially call Barry in for help if she lost wells (she did call Barry, she just didn't give him all the information) or that Cisco could have been hoping Barry might show up randomly if he stalled. I don't know why Cisco didn't ask Barry to come with but Barry trusts wells. I still think it was a better plan to keep wells talking and hope for backup or for him to change his mind than trying to fight and insure that you got killed right away.

Second, Did Caitlin and Cisco not have a whole conversation about his suspecting wells and needing her to distract him while Cisco searched? That's clearly what they were doing so Cisco would have know the plan.

As for the rest, I loved your post princess lucky! A shark is a very good metaphor because that's exactly how it felt. Like wells was some sort of wild animal circling.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Shanna

[bmjax]

Barry knows iris is in a serious relationship, with a man that actually befriended and respects him. I dont see why Iris is anymore "detestable" than Barry here. He has been one to put the first moves, confessing to Iris for e.g when she was in a relationship and about to move with Eddie. And thats without adding what he is doing to Linda, doesnt matter how long they have been dating, she told him honestly and openly she didn't want any time wasters. And he does exactly that, lies and cheats on her as the cherry on top.  He didnt show the same courtesy and respect back to her that she did for him. Barry knows all too well what his feelings are, Iris was at least unconscious of them, she is just starting to wake up to them.

 

Can they just get together please, they deserve so much better treatment.

Thank you! I really like both of these characters BUT I hated the way they both acted and treated the people who were supposed to be important to them.  I am as equally angry (maybe even a little more angry) at Barry then Iris.  Eddie is his comrade in arms, his friend, someone who has shown Barry nothing but kindness and respect.  I felt that Barry telling Iris how he felt was disrespectful to Eddie but this was just a stab in the back. Eddie is like a sweet puppy that Barry is kicking while his back is turned. 

 

I think Iris has feelings for Barry but I am not sure if the feelings are what she thinks they are. I think she is confused and ...hmmmmmm not sure yet BUT couples therapy first!

 

As someone who's been cheated on with a person that was their co-worker and friend. Not having it, not at all!

[Xander]

While I agree that both Barry and Iris acted horribly, I think it does matter that Iris is actually living with a guy/in a serious relationship, whereas for Barry, there's not a lot of emotional investment. Yes, if Barry and Linda split at this point, there will be hard feelings, but not near the amount of hard feelings and emotional baggage there will be with Iris/Eddie. 

 

I also don't think Barry was lying. Iris told him in no uncertain terms she'd moved on. She's living with Eddie. Barry I'm sure has considered that a dead end. The only problem is that Barry forced himself to move on while he still had residual feelings for Iris, which as we've seen, is not a good idea, because the moment she said she was into it, he jumped on that without a thought. 

 

Barry was lying. He's in a relationship with Linda and having relationship discussions with Joe about his feelings for Iris. He was very much aware that he wasn't over Iris while dating Linda. He didn't have residual feelings but full blown active feelings that kept him looking into Iris eyes hoping that she was feeling the same way. 

[bettername2come]

If Cisco wanted to have Barry as back-up, he had plenty of time and opportunity to contact Barry himself, especially since he waited until the next morning to do anything.  Why depend on Caitlin to do it when she's focused on distracting Wells? As for Cisco knowing where Wells was, I guess we can assume that he and Caitlin communicated off-screen that she was with Wells. Otherwise, he had little info to go on regarding Wells' location.   

Something I noticed on re-watch, from the time Caitlin says she's going home to the time Wells walks in the next morning Cisco's outfit doesn't change, so I think he must have worked at the lab overnight trying to figure out what happened with the containment field and was just trying to buy a little extra time the following morning. I think he probably did talk to Barry and knew he was at the hospital with Singh and then trying to stop Mardon. I can see him not calling when he doesn't have the information yet. Although Barry not calling Cisco over Caitlin for a non-medical question does seem plot contrived.

Edited March 20, 2015 by bettername2come

[driedfruit]

At the risk of being accused of that dreaded disease "Iris Hate," I have to ask something that's been bugging me since the beginning of the series. What is it that makes Iris so special? I mean, I'm asking for real. I keep waiting. All I see now is kind of this innocuous, smiley person with a bubbly personality that is the "love interest" guys can just project whatever "specialness" they want onto her. 

 

In the beginning, they made her this person who had to get to the bottom of everything, to the point where The Flash begged her not to, and she just smiled and went on doing it anyway.

 

Now her boss has to keep pushing her to be investigative. Already I find him more interesting than Iris. 

 

But I want to be clear AGAIN. I don't "hate" Iris. I'm just now wowed by her.  I'm begging the show to give me something. That defining moment where I can see what Eddie and Barry see. I want to see it. For me at this point it's tell and not show. 

 

Sigh. What makes [insert every other character outside of Barry] special? 

 

And funny how Iris has to be supah special to be a worthy character. Or worthy of love from Eddie and Barry. I'd rather she isn't a Mary Sue and actually struggles on the way and learns. Her having a mentor somehow makes her less interesting? 

 

Oh and please tell me what makes Caitlin worthy of Ronnie's love? Or Oliver worthy of any girl to give him the time of day? If Iris, the amazingly warm, kind, awesome person she is isn't special enough to make her believable as a love interest then why is anyone else?

Edited March 21, 2015 by driedfruit

[Shanna]

I don't really give a shit about Ronnie and Caitlin, their relationship is shallow too. And I could write a book on Oliver but this isn't the forum for it.

I agree with sweet tooth that iris is a bit bland right now. She's pretty and sweet and she and Barry have history. I get why he likes her, but as a viewer I would like a little more depth. Maybe a bit of an edge. I don't think we've seen that yet. In a less sweet looking/acting actress I think this past episode could have come off sort of mean girl, but I don't think iris means to do that. She's just wishy washy. That's still not ok, but I don't think it's malicious.

Barry has a bit more development, the stuff with joe, his actual father and Oliver helps, but everybody on this show feels pretty shallow to me except oddly enough Cisco, since he was so set up as comic relief. Between this weeks but with wells, and the whole deal with evil Harry potter a few weeks ago, and the hints about whatever his issue is with his brother, I feel like he is starting to flesh out.

[driedfruit]

I just find it funny how suddenly now the problem is "why isn't Iris special" when a few episodes back the criticism here was about Iris being too special. 

 

The girl can't win either way. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by driedfruit

[Actionmage]

At the risk of being accused of that dreaded disease "Iris Hate," I have to ask something that's been bugging me since the beginning of the series. What is it that makes Iris so special? I mean, I'm asking for real. I keep waiting. All I see now is kind of this innocuous, smiley person with a bubbly personality that is the "love interest" guys can just project whatever "specialness" they want onto her.

 

The Writers Say So. They can't bother to actually show us why Barry or Eddie love her because that would take time and work, both of which apparently could be fobbed off until the latter half of the season. Otherwise, the bang-to-hype ratio would feel organic and balanced as opposed to how it feels to some folks currently. Barry's built-up crush/love for a woman who started dating another man while Barry was in a coma could not live up to the hype because no real woman could, imo.

 

Not saying Iris doesn't have moments of awesome, but the writing has let her down a lot. Even her own father prefers other people to her, on-screen anyway. If they weren't supposed to be endgame, I'd think part of the attraction was to get some positive attention from Joe, but that's me.

 

I don't know if this helps, as if you didn't already suspect.  I have seen this type of non-writing too many times and it irks me beyond the telling.

[arc]

Once I realized they were giving us literally everything most of the audience has been waiting for the entire season

Except for freeing Barry's dad. In fairness, Barry's kind of forgotten about that too...

[kikaha]

The Writers Say So. They can't bother to actually show us why Barry or Eddie love her because that would take time and work, both of which apparently could be fobbed off until the latter half of the season.

 

Iris is:

 

Beautiful

Smart

Fun

Friendly

A hard worker

Not stuck up

 

She also has a kind heart... is highly motivated to succeed at things she loves... successful... self-starting... and Barry's best friend. 

 

No mystery to me why he's so taken with her. 

[GraceAbigail]

The writers haven't shown us why Barry or Eddie love Iris? Oh, really? So we're just gonna ignore the fact that Iris was the only one who believed in Barry? We're gonna ignore the fact that she loves him, shares her father with him, sacrificed her personal life for him? I mean, how many women do you know who would cancel dates to go hang out at some science event that they have no interest in? How many women do you know who are so fulfilled, so emotionally invested in their relationship with their best friend that they feel no need to have a romantic relationship? This is who Iris West is and what she has done for Barry. Oh, and in the words of Cisco, "she's hot."

 

As far as I'm concerned, the question is not why Barry (especially) loves Iris but rather, why *wouldn't* he love her? 

Edited March 21, 2015 by GraceAbigail

[driedfruit]

Iris is:

 

Beautiful

Smart

Fun

Friendly

A hard worker

Not stuck up

 

She also has a kind heart... is highly motivated to succeed at things she loves... successful... self-starting... and Barry's best friend. 

 

No mystery to me why he's so taken with her. 

 

Right. 

 

Let's add, a quick thinker. Witty. Adorable as heck. Kind. Brave. Idealistic. Passionate...

 

The show has done plenty to show us just how wonderful Iris is. Even if she's not your personal cup of tea, it's already been shown why Iris is Barry's dearest friend. Anyone would be ridiculously lucky to have someone half as loving, supportive, witty, adorable, and gutsy in their lives. 

 

If anything, I have to wonder what Iris sees in Eddie and Barry. Since both of them are passive aggressive and whimpy as heck, and not nearly as nice on the eyes as she is.  

 

 

how is Iris more special than any other woman? I mean "not stuck up" kind of assumes women in general are stuck up?

I can, at random, find beautiful, funny, smart, hard-working, un-stuck-up women in five minutes.

 

 

Iris is special to Barry (and Eddie) for the obvious reasons that we all love who we love. Basically someone who is kind and is accepting of us. Someone we genuinely love and feel comfortable around, someone who thinks we're amazing and whose company we find greatly enjoyable. She doesn't have to be a super ninja or a Nobel Prize winner to be worthy of romantic love. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by driedfruit

[kikaha]

I'm guessing that in the new time frame, Joe will not end up out on that dock, with the mile-high tsunami bearing down on him.  But if he did, would Barry's vortex save him?  Seems like he's well outside it, and the tsunami would overtake him before it reached the vortex. The bad guy also would seem to be at risk, though I suppose he can create some meteorological phenomenon that saves himself. 

[driedfruit]

I'm guessing that in the new time frame, Joe will not end up out on that dock, with the mile-high tsunami bearing down on him.  But if he did, would Barry's vortex save him?  Seems like he's well outside it, and the tsunami would overtake him before it reached the vortex. The bad guy also would seem to be at risk, though I suppose he can create some meteorological phenomenon that saves himself. 

 

The promo shows Weather Wizard locked in the STAR Labs prison, so I'm assuming Barry captures him before he kidnaps Joe. 

[peachmangosteen]

I don't really give a shit about Ronnie and Caitlin ...

 

I LOLed so hard at this!

 

I don't ship Barry/Iris and actually just couldn't care less about them, but I can easily see why they love each other. I mean they grew up together for pete's sake! So I can infer how they grew to love each other. I'd prefer to have seen it, but I do understand it. Now with Eddie, who weirdly enough I do actually ship with Iris, I think it's a bit harder to see why they love each other but that's probably just because we rarely see them at all. And that's a very annoying aspect of the writing to me. I mean obviously we all know Barry/Iris are endgame so I guess I kinda understand why the writers didn't even try with Eddie/Iris, but I think the story would be much better/more interesting and would actually make Iris look better to viewers if we saw more of Eddie/Iris.

[FurryFury]

I just find it funny how suddenly now the problem is "why isn't Iris special" when a few episodes back the criticism here was about Iris being too special.

The girl can't win either way.

 

The problem is that she IS treated as quite special, but no reason is given for that. Even more, she's treated like an ideal female, the delicate flower that must be protected at all cost. It's demeaning and infuriating, yes, but it's even worse because we have no idea what makes people around her (her father, boyfriend and BFF) feel this way about her. She's nice and sweet, but this isn't a real characterization. For me, personally, to buy this, Iris should be a much more compelling character. CP is good, but not that good to overcome these obvious writing flaws - nobody is, probably

Edited March 21, 2015 by FurryFury

[kikaha]

FF: fathers will do anything to protect their children, and especially their daughters. 

 

Similarly, guys will try to protect their girlfriends, and Barry, deeply in love with Iris, will certainly want to protect her.  This seems to me nearly as universal as the law of gravity (and when it doesn't happen, I think the man is typically filled with shame). 

[Oscirus]

Are people really asking why Barry would fall in love with a girl who, spends a lot of time with him, always tells him how great he is, does things that he likes even if she doesn't and is low maintenance.? I may fault the writing for a lot of things but if you can't see Barry's attraction to Iris after all that, then it's pretty much on you.

 

Maybe they could work on showing why Eddie is attracted to Iris but since this is Barry's story not Eddie or Iris's, we can just chalk it up to not enough time to develop that relationship for viewers. Just say they're dating each other because they get along with each other pretty well and call it a day.  If we're going to question every romance on the show, why is Linda attracted to Barry? Or is that not an important question because Barry is more popular?

 

To those complaining about Iris's lack of investigation on DR. Wells, that's not her article, why would she be investigating it on her free time? Her boss told her to concentrate on Flash's story which is something that she's doing. All this side stuff about her interviewing her friends, etc., is stuff that she's doing for her mentor, Mason as a favor.

 

Maybe a bit of an edge. I don't think we've seen that yet. In a less sweet looking/acting actress I think this past episode could have come off sort of mean girl, but I don't think iris means to do that. She's just wishy washy.

 

I would say that Iris is just oblivious to the things that she does. Likely the byproduct of being raised in the bubble that she was.

 

People say that Iris was trying to be malicious at the bowling alley and I'd ask how do you get that? There were no cues to the audience to let us know that was the case (smirks at Linda, underhanded remarks, etc.). Then the argument is her later actions of trying to get Barry to dump Linda was proof of her intentions and I'd argue that it was just proof that she didn't appreciate getting read the riot act by Linda ( whether a person is in the right or wrong, nobody likes getting chewed out).

 

 

Either that or they're a straight-up sociopath, which is good for a horror movie. Someone who will be killed off at the end by the good guy, but bad for me in terms of a character I see week after week. If that person has no real connection to those around him except as pawns in his plan, that to me is boring. It creates no dilemma for him. Yes, if he can kill Cisco, then for me, he has no humanity.

 

You talk about Wells having no humanity then try to compare him to the guy who put his own daughter in danger just to protect himself?  And that's not even talking into account the undertaking in which he was so blinded by revenge that he was willing to killing a whole lot of people. Wells might be a stereotypical bad guy, but he's not even in the same category as Merlyn.

 

To end this while bringing something new to the discussion, Barry now knows the following in the new timeline: Iris's feelings for him, that Wells was the last person seen with Stagg, Mason has information on Wells locked up somewhere. Is there anything else of importance?

 

 

[Moviesnob]

Typically when I don't really feel a couple on a show, it's all due to the chemistry. Iris/Barry kinda have it, IMO, but not like I think Barry/Caitlin have it. Caitlin/Ronnie have zero chemistry.

[Shanna]

I would say that Iris is just oblivious to the things that she does. Likely the byproduct of being raised in the bubble that she was. People say that Iris was trying to be malicious at the bowling alley and I'd ask how do you get that? There were no cues to the audience to let us know that was the case (smirks at Linda, underhanded remarks, etc.).

Then the argument is her later actions of trying to get Barry to dump Linda was proof of her intentions and I'd argue that it was just proof that she didn't appreciate getting read the riot act by Linda ( whether a person is in the right or wrong, nobody likes getting chewed out).

I never take iris as malicious because she's too sweet. I still think can do damage by being oblivious.

As for the second part, I think her issues with Linda are proof that she wants to keep Barry for herself whatever reason she might make up. Hell, she literally could not even make up a reason for Barry! Like, catch a clue. I think it is deeply unfair of her to try to kill off Barry's relationship if she does not want him for herself. But of course we know she does.

And Linda's comments were rather mild. And echoed by Iris's boyfriend. If both dates were uncomfortable, iris shoul admit that she and Barry were in the wrong. And the end of the episode, where she kisses Barry, showed that they were not overreacting.

[CabotCove]

The writers haven't shown us why Barry or Eddie love Iris? Oh, really? So we're just gonna ignore the fact that Iris was the only one who believed in Barry? We're gonna ignore the fact that she loves him, shares her father with him, sacrificed her personal life for him? I mean, how many women do you know who would cancel dates to go hang out at some science event that they have no interest in? How many women do you know who are so fulfilled, so emotionally invested in their relationship with their best friend that they feel no need to have a romantic relationship? This is who Iris West is and what she has done for Barry. Oh, and in the words of Cisco, "she's hot."

As far as I'm concerned, the question is not why Barry (especially) loves Iris but rather, why *wouldn't* he love her?

 

ITA

 

Even if there was just one good quality about her, it is enough to be loved,  but she actually been shown to have  lots. And love can be unconditional anyway.

 

This question of "worthiness"  to the male hero or just as a character seems to pop up quite a lot for female leads who are also the main & original love interests in a show. It rarely happens to other characters, especially the main male hero in question. Its hard to ignore the history trend. 

Edited March 22, 2015 by Conell

[driedfruit]

The problem is that she IS treated as quite special, but no reason is given for that. Even more, she's treated like an ideal female, the delicate flower that must be protected at all cost. It's demeaning and infuriating, yes, but it's even worse because we have no idea what makes people around her (her father, boyfriend and BFF) feel this way about her. She's nice and sweet, but this isn't a real characterization. For me, personally, to buy this, Iris should be a much more compelling character. CP is good, but not that good to overcome these obvious writing flaws - nobody is, probably

 

I agree that she's treated horribly, but I disagree about her being just nice and sweet. 

 

Considering Iris' weaknesses, she's been a lot cleverer and more resourceful than Barry or any other character when cornered. While she hasn't reached her potential, IMO there's a solid foundation there. 

 

Yep. That's what I was saying. That everyone is running around screaming that Iris is the most special of special girls everywhere. She is a beacon. A shining light of perfect perfection. She is everything.

 

No they don't.

 

Even Barry who is madly in love with her constantly underestimates her cleverness and general competence. If anything people don't give her enough credit as an adult. 

Edited March 22, 2015 by driedfruit

[Shanna]

If this were real life pretty and sweet would really be enough. That's why I never question why anybody loves anyone else on tv (unless that person is actively an awful person).

As a viewer, I want all charcters, romantic or otherwise, to be interesting and layered. Sweet and pretty is boring on tv. I think iris has potential but the writing is pretty mediocre so we aren't seeing it. And this episode could have even just developed her flaws, but somehow I feel they have given her flaws but she's still so sweet it's like they don't make her layered? I don't know exactly. In a different actress, I would probably find her sweetness insincere and sacrine but I actually don't - but that also means that I want her to have some edge. Some bite.

[Xander]

If Iris had been the Joe character in this episode, she would have been bashed by fandom all the way to the end of the earth. Heck, if she'd been the Caitlin who didn't alert Cisco or Barry when Wells wasn't in his wheelchair, she would have been bashed halfway around the earth. She's still getting bashed because she refused to stop writing her blog. 

 

Iris has experienced real pain and loss as I'm sure she had a mother once but the writers aren't exploring it. I think that Iris will dig deeper if Mason meets an untimely death and 

she will soon have some run-ins with the Reverse Flash so she'll definitely be in danger soon.

.

 

The love declaration is getting wiped away so it's not the real one anyway. I suspect that's why they didn't have them actually use the word "love" in their dialogue. Perhaps when that happens, more people would exclaim "At last!" 

Edited March 22, 2015 by Xander

[Xander]

Cailtin has a TELEPHONE. Surely, calling Cisco and Barry while she was at Jitters would have made more sense given that the one job she had was to distract Wells. 

 

Iris's crime in this episode was being insensitive to her boyfriend's feelings. That's was her major crime. She was flirting with Barry when she shouldn't have. That was it! No one died as a result. A tsunami didn't result because she didn't carry the weapon she was given when she went to fight Weather Wizard. 

 

It's more than fine to talk about Iris's flaws and you'll find me in her thread often talking about them. So don't lump me in with people who think she should not be called out. However, I'm not blind to the fact that she's held to a different standard than other characters on the show. Just look at how much she's been talked about in this thread. And I will say it again, if she'd been the damsel in distress in this episode, she would have been called every name in the book and bashed far more than Joe was for the same crime. 

[Shanna]

I honestly thought joes and the weather wizards entire plot made zero sense so I'm mostly ignoring beyond making that point.

[FurryFury]

However, I'm not blind to the fact that she's held to a different standard than other characters on the show. Just look at how much she's been talked about in this thread.

 

Because of the way some people jump to her defense, imho. And also because of how prominent Iris/Barry have been in this episode.

[tennisgurl]

I agree that Irish and Barry acted rather inappropriately on their double date, and people have every right to criticize them for it. That does not mean that I hate them. I really like Barry and Iris, but they both have character flaws, and sometimes do the wrong thing. Like everybody, ever. And that's not "hate", its just being critical, whether its of the character, or of the writing itself. 

 

As for Wells, I don't think he is quote an "evil for the sake of evil" bad guy. I still think he has a master plan, one that makes him feel like he is justified in all of his actions. He might be amoral, he might see the people in his life as basically shades of the past, but I wouldn't call him a "muahahahah" type of villain. At least, not yet.  

[Oscirus]

Are we really having a conversation about the different standard that Iris is held to when in this very thread a conversation thread was held as to why Iris is worthy of being loved by the men in her life?

 

We also have people jumping to Cisco's defense for basically just standing there and letting himself be killed but you sure as hell don't see people mischaracterizing Cisco's history and  pointing out his every flaw to justify not liking him.

 

Any realistic person knows that Iris is not some Mary Sue who has no faults.   If people want to dislike Iris, then dislike her, stop acting like victims because there are people out there who dare to debate the merits of what you're saying. This is a message board, I hope that there are differing views.  I don't want to go some monolithic board that would be boring as hell.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Oscirus

[Shanna]

We also have people jumping to Cisco's for basically just standing there and letting himself be killed but you sure as hell don't see people mischaracterizing Cisco's moves and pointing out his every flaw to justify not liking him.

.

As far as I saw some people had one opinion about Ciscos not fighting wells and some people had another. I'm not sure that proves any larger point.

But yes, vive la difference! It would be boring if everyone thought the same.

Anyways, after a few days I'm wondering how this stupid time traveling take backs nonsense might affect arrow in the future. I hope they set some limits on it because i don't really want any and everything To be changeable.

[Oscirus]

I assume there will be consequences to his traveling back in time that will stop him from repeatedly doing it. I'm going to go ahead and speculate that the butterfly effect is going to come into play here. I'm interested in seeing how it gets applied.

[AudienceofOne]

If Iris had been the Joe character in this episode, she would have been bashed by fandom all the way to the end of the earth

 

 

 

Errr... I do bash Joe. Repeatedly. He's the absolute worst. He's a paternalistic, misoygnistic ass who treats his daughter like attractive furniture and actually tries to pimp her to her brother so she'll stop dating his partner.

[ribboninthesky1]

Something I noticed on re-watch, from the time Caitlin says she's going home to the time Wells walks in the next morning Cisco's outfit doesn't change, so I think he must have worked at the lab overnight trying to figure out what happened with the containment field and was just trying to buy a little extra time the following morning. I think he probably did talk to Barry and knew he was at the hospital with Singh and then trying to stop Mardon. I can see him not calling when he doesn't have the information yet. Although Barry not calling Cisco over Caitlin for a non-medical question does seem plot contrived.

 

Oh dear, if he's wearing the same clothes, then that makes things even more absurd.  It didn't appear to take that long to review the equipment, hook everything up, and see the hologram of Reverse Flash.    

 

First, I was thinking that Caitlin would potentially call Barry in for help if she lost wells (she did call Barry, she just didn't give him all the information) or that Cisco could have been hoping Barry might show up randomly if he stalled. I don't know why Cisco didn't ask Barry to come with but Barry trusts wells. I still think it was a better plan to keep wells talking and hope for backup or for him to change his mind than trying to fight and insure that you got killed right away.

Second, Did Caitlin and Cisco not have a whole conversation about his suspecting wells and needing her to distract him while Cisco searched? That's clearly what they were doing so Cisco would have know the plan.

 

I don't understand what you mean - yes, Cisco and Caitlin talked the night before about distracting Wells.  I'm not debating that.  But that wasn't a guarantee she could actually do it.  The way Caitlin was checking the time, I'm not even sure she knew how long Cisco needed.    

 

As for the Caitlin/Barry call, I could have sworn that he called her, and she picked up.  But I don't care to re-watch, so I'll concede the point.  To be fair, I don't blame Caitlin for not contacting Barry right away.  We're not shown how much time passed between Wells leaving and Caitlin getting to the lab. And she had serious doubts about Wells as a threat, unlike Cisco.  So I can see why she wouldn't immediately jump to the "Cisco could be murdered if caught by Wells" conclusion.  

 

As for Barry trusting Wells, I think a seed was planted.  Otherwise, I believe he wouldn't have gone to Caitlin and Cisco with it, and certainly not to see Mason.  We may never know what Barry would have said or done if Cisco had told him of his plans. Or, we might, thanks to the time travel loophole!     

[driedfruit]

I think the main reason she's being talked about, is because the minute someone has a long post, where they point out Barry's and Joe's and Caitlin's flaws, but also mention Iris, a bunch of people jump in to say how Iris is awesome and why is everyone hating on her? 

 

I don't care how long a post is, if I see something I find entirely unreasonable and not supported by canon, I will comment. And if you feel so justified in your criticism I don't see why it's such a big deal when it's challenged. 

[driedfruit]

I think many people have made this point about Joe. Repeatedly. And it's true. his constant "Don't tell Iris!" is annoying as hell, as is Barry and Eddie going along with it. 

 

And yes, Cisco's immobility was debated as well. So was Caitlyn's inaction and Barry's selfishness.

 

Everyone has been called out for their bad behavior this episode. Iris just happens to be one of them.

 

However, the criticism Iris gets is disproportionate. She gets called despicable for doing things Barry never got called out on even when his gleeful messing with Iris/Eddie was far beyond anything Linda related Iris has done. She gets criticized in ways that are just beyond extreme, like your comments about everyone worshiping because she has a father, a boyfriend, and a best-friend who love her meanwhile every other character is largely indifferent to her. And the examples can go on and on. 

Edited March 23, 2015 by driedfruit

[Shanna]

I hate this 'don't tell iris' bs but to me it falls under 'stupid comic book things'. Like hating time travel. And super speed. And costumes. They're all part of the genre, annoying as they may be it's not going to do me much good to rant about it every week. It is most infuriating how they fixed it and unfixed it in short order.

I don't know why he would be telling Eddie that about police stuff, though. Weird.

Dried fruit, I have a bigger issue with iris cheating on a serious boyfriend than I do with Barry making a last ditch play for the girl he's apparently been in love with forever. Barry wasn't acting right this episode either but that has also already been mentioned, I think her transgressions were greater because she is in a much more serous relationship than he is. If she isn't serious about Eddie, she needs to let him go. It's not fair to him.

[driedfruit]

Dried fruit, I have a bigger issue with iris cheating on a serious boyfriend than I do with Barry making a last ditch play for the girl he's apparently been in love with forever. Barry wasn't acting right this episode either but that has also already been mentioned, I think her transgressions were greater because she is in a much more serous relationship than he is. If she isn't serious about Eddie, she needs to let him go. It's not fair to him.

 

To clarify, I'm talking about Barry in earlier episodes where he was going around wooing Iris as Flash and smirking to himself about how it was posing problems in her relationship with Eddie. Even eagerly asking her if they broke up. That stuff was not only malicious, but also emotionally manipulative and gross. But he never gets called out on it, while Iris blabbing to Linda suddenly made her evil.

 

I don't disagree that Iris has been unfair to Eddie, but I do think it's too early to judge just how unfair. And even so, everything she's guilty of doesn't stack up to much when it's compared to how severely everyone around her has betrayed her trust. Including Eddie. 

 

And I'm hard pressed to call something "cheating" when Iris, unlike Barry, was expecting to die. In that situation the relationship with Eddie was essentially over in a few minutes, so no harm done. 

Edited March 23, 2015 by driedfruit

[kikaha]

 

I do bash Joe. Repeatedly. He's the absolute worst. He's a paternalistic, misoygnistic ass who treats his daughter like attractive furniture and actually tries to pimp her to her brother so she'll stop dating his partner.

I completely disagree.  Joe, by himself, raised two kids who have turned into great people.  They are loving and lovable.  Smart.  Successful in their careers.  Happy.  Self-starters.  Friendly with others and contributors to society. 

 

Joe knows the lethal dangers Barry faces as the Flash.  Of course he will protect his daughter from that. But Iris has a mind of her own, and wants to put herself in the line of fire.

 

Pimpiing?  Barry is not Iris' brother.  He's not a blood relation of any kind.  And Joe is not pushing Barry on her.  He believes Barry is a better man for Iris than Eddie is, and has made a few gentle suggestions to Barry. 

 

Iris is not Supergirl, or Wonder Woman, or a meta-human or Batgirl for that matter.  She is a nice young woman, from a nice middle class background, who is pretty much a cub reporter.  The idea that she should actively take part in the battle against super-powered criminals makes no sense to me. 

[Shanna]

Other comic shows definitely have the lying thing going on. It's not about protecting the women so much as it is keeping it from the normals. And there are usually valid reasons for that. This show has just had Barry so open about the whole thing that it's kind of ridiculous. And iris is already involved. So it's more stupid than usual.

[peachmangosteen]

This show has just had Barry so open about the whole thing that it's kind of ridiculous.

 

This is what makes it so hard to take Iris being deliberately kept in the dark. Barry has told pretty much everyone he's ever met at this point. It makes it come off like everyone has to protect delicate little flower Iris and like they all think she's weak and stupid since they have no problem with half the city knowing Barry is The Flash.

 

As for the Iris hate debate, I love Iris and she is my favorite character, but I think there are definitely understandable, defensible reasons to not like her. She is the worst written character in the show (outside maybe Eddie but only because he's basically invisible). Plus, sometimes when you hate a character everything they do bothers you. The opposite is also true, sometimes when you love a character you are very protective of them and can't see the real flaws they have.

 

There is no doubt that in some places the Iris hate is OTT and largely race based, but I have not seen that here and I don't think it's fair to assume everyone that criticizes Iris is doing it for a more nefarious reason than they just don't like the character because everyone has different opinions.

Edited March 23, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[Oscirus]

Well if Iris doesn't get told this week after Barry just saw in the other timeline that eventually this is going to have to come out  then I'll just have to call it a plot contrivance because there's no other reason for it to be a secret by this point.

[MarkHB]

My gut feeling, and this is pure (unspoiled) speculation, is that Barry will go to the newspaper office early, get Iris and tell her the secret... but it will be before she's really had time to get in touch with her feelings, hence premature, and she'll just get angry with him and prolong the not-being-together portion of our program.  The flip side will be that since she's with Barry she won't have that discussion with Mason, so she won't start asking Cisco questions that lead him to the fatal confrontation with Wells.

 

What happens then is anyone's guess.

[Xander]

I think they'll have Iris find out on her own for extra drama. And not in the next episode. 

[wayne67]

Errr... I do bash Joe. Repeatedly. He's the absolute worst. He's a paternalistic, misoygnistic ass who treats his daughter like attractive furniture and actually tries to pimp her to her brother so she'll stop dating his partner.

 

Yeah I'm not a fan of Joe's keeping Iris in the dark mantra. It comes off as completely unnecessary. Iris singlehandedly dealt with that clock guy... She's not a wilting flower. I'm not saying she should put on a costume and pitch in but as someone who would be really upset that Barry would die if Flash died in one of his poorly thought out battles should at least know that his life is in risk more or less constantly. For one it would propel their relationship forward in one way or another and provide more reasons to include her in the plot.

 

As for what makes her so special. I think that's a frequent complaint of female characters (rarely some males) in the middle of love triangles. For instance Bella off Twilight. Why do either of those guys like her ? I sort of get why the werewolf dude likes her, he knew her when she was young and she went away and got 'hot' but Edward's a 100 year old vampire, he's bound to have gotten around looking like that.

 

Or Elana in Vampire Diaries or Marissa in OC or Laurel. Sometimes some characters don't resonate with the audience and we're left with the question why are these super hot rich guys fighting off this fairly bland person.

 

As an audience member I don't get why Barry is in love with her. That's not a disparagement on Iris but more on the writing because I've been given no explanation for why Barry imprinted on Iris other than that she was there fulfilling some emotional need when his world fell apart but I'm not getting much else that's a healthier motivation.

 

I liked Iris for the first four or so episodes despite some niggles over her saying "I'll just make stuff up" or "I wanted you here so you could translate this science stuff so I didn't need to research", (paraphrasing a bit) but then Barry confessed his love for her and then nothing made sense from there. She apparently rejected him off screen and is living with one guy while passive aggressively sabotaging her best friends relationship so he wouldn't move on without her even while she's half way married to some other guy. I do not get behind that.

 

The Barry Iris relationship started with them kissing under threat of death while in other relationships and whatever happens with time travel rewrites that will be how their relationship went from just friends who lived together for some unspecified period of time while they grew up to male and female who want to pursue their sexual/emotional feelings ... I don't like that. I can not root for that. For me that's why I dislike it. Also the keeping your best friend/love interest in the dark always irritates me.

 

Also what happened with Iris's mother ? Did she wander off into a black hole ? Is that why Joe is so protective of her ? CONFUZZLED.

Edited March 23, 2015 by wayne67

[Sakura12]

With the way Joe keeps Iris in the dark, I think Iris' mother was told a secret then died. That's why Iris can never be told anything. Secrets kill. lol.

[driedfruit]

As for the Iris hate debate, I love Iris and she is my favorite character, but I think there are definitely understandable, defensible reasons to not like her. She is the worst written character in the show (outside maybe Eddie but only because he's basically invisible). Plus, sometimes when you hate a character everything they do bothers you. The opposite is also true, sometimes when you love a character you are very protective of them and can't see the real flaws they have.

 

There is no doubt that in some places the Iris hate is OTT and largely race based, but I have not seen that here and I don't think it's fair to assume everyone that criticizes Iris is doing it for a more nefarious reason than they just don't like the character because everyone has different opinions.

 

In nearly every fandom for a show/book with a male protagonist, his main love interest (wife, ex-gf, crush) is always irrationally hated, vehemently and very loudly. And some of these women are well written (Skylar White, Betty Draper, Egwene Al'vere... Now even Claire Underwood is getting a ton of hate). There's literally no reason for this other than fandom's deep seeded misogyny.

 

While the hate isn't as outrageous here, it's still OTT in proportion to Iris' actions. Predictably so.

 

Oh and I disagree with Iris being the worst written. Her actions and choices actually make sense within her character, unlike many of the others.

Edited March 24, 2015 by driedfruit