S04.E14: Unforgiven

[FabulousTater]

I was kinda shocked to learn that Maleficent was pregnant.  Who the hell would've been willing to sleep with her without getting sickened by the very deed?

I mean, Robin Hood thinks The Evil Queen is "bold and audacious" and they banged in a crypt. I'd say the show already crossed the Rubicon when it comes to other characters who are turned on by mass murderers.

[woolmintons]

You guys, words just can’t describe how disturbing I find Regal Believer. I know that Emma and Regina are foils, so both Swan Believer/Regal Believer and Operation Cobra/Operation Mongoose are going to foil each other, but the fact that a 12-year-old has to be the parent in the relationship 99% of the time is just so wrong to me. Henry shouldn’t be making breakup baskets, he shouldn’t be yelling at his mother to let him back into his own house, and he certainly should bat an eye when his mother tells him the closest she ever had to being happy was when Robin and Roland were with them (And I pretty sure we didn’t really ever see the four of them together alone, right?) This is not something you should ever tell your child. I didn’t see it as some great moment of honesty in their relationship; I saw it as really, really fucked up.

 

As I said in the post for 4x12, I truly don’t know what they’re going with Regina. She apologizes (to the wrong person), but it’s for yelling at, insulting, and threatening a child. One she brought to her office to help her. No “Thank you Gepetto and Pinocchio for taking time out of your day to come down to my office and try to remember, I really appreciate it.” No, everything is about Regina! She even makes the apology all about her! This is the very first major roadblock and she’s this upset? What’s going to happen at bigger roadblocks when apologies don’t help?

 

And Her apology doesn’t change what Gepetto said (four for you, Gepetto): Why does Regina deserve a happy ending? Because she’s changed? What about people that were never evil in the first place? What about the people trying to atone for their past while not expecting a reward? What about all the people she killed who will never get a chance at a happy ending? Surely her father’s happy ending would involve BEING ALIVE? She threatens the Queens of Darkness for bringing up her crimes in front of Henry (logic fail: IT SHOULD BE IN THE BOOK YOU BOTH HAVE BEEN POURING OVER) and threatens to essentially take away their happy endings by kicking them out of town! Everything regarding Regina is one step forward, two steps back.

 

And again, this Emma/Regina friendship is still about what Emma can do for Regina. Regina blows off the Queens of Darkness to work on the stupid book, and tells the sheriff’s department that it’s their job, and then yells at Emma for not showing up soon enough WHEN EMMA WAS ACTUALLY DOING POLICE WORK. I’m glad that they showed how good Emma is with kids, and that she left instead of coddling Regina.

 

I’m interested to see how Snowing’s secret is going to affect Emma. Will she be most upset because they lied to her/are going to continue to lie to her? Because they caused someone to lose their child? Because she will feel that because of what they did to insure she grew up to be a hero/with light magic that she will feel her decisions didn’t matter? She was very upset in 2B when she thought Rumple had pulled all the strings with her meeting Neal and with her being able to do magic, how is she going to feel about her parents being the ones who maybe pulled strings? I do think that a major shakeup in the Charming family has been a long time coming. They didn’t deal with echo cave, or Mary Margaret wanting to stay with David, they didn’t really fight her on returning to New York, or any of the things that Ingrid brought up that led to her magic freak out.

 

And at the end of this mess, they give us this incredible moment of growth for Emma. This beautiful, wonderful moment of growth that was inspired by her parents (that secret is 100% going to blow up in everyone's faces btw). Someone else called it sad funny because of the lie and I agree, but on the other hand, I am so, so proud of her.  I like that she automatically accused Hook of being the one to wrong Ursula. She deserves not to be lied to (CHARMINGS, I'M LOOKING AT YOU), and I'm glad she called him out on it. Things like this were what I was hoping for when A&E said in 4A that Emma was going to fight for Hook.

[darkestboy]

Not a bad episode. It did feel like Maleficent was revived a bit too easily but I did find it amusing how Cruella and Ursula were able to manipulate both Snow and Charming into helping them.

 

I'm not sure if we need more kids on this show (though I assume Maleficent's child is either Emma's age and probably Lily) but it was an interesting set of Enchanted Forest flashbacks this week.

 

Regina going undercover seems to be a recipe for disaster and it's still ridiculous they even let Cruella and Ursula into Storybrook in the first place.

 

Rumple didn't need to be in the episode, other than that particular moment he had to see but other than that, I am hoping the Queens of Darkness turn on him fairly fast though.

 

Nice to see August/Pinnochio in this episode too, 7/10

[YaddaYadda]

Henry shouldn’t be making breakup baskets, he shouldn’t be yelling at his mother to let him back into his own house, and he certainly should bat an eye when his mother tells him the closest she ever had to being happy was when Robin and Roland were with them

 

I thought it was said that she voiced it that way.  No one is enough for Regina and her happiness.  What happens when she's reunite with Robin and living with him under the same roof for two weeks and he leaves his socks under the bed and leaves the toilet seat up and toothpaste in the sink?  Is she going to freak out and kick him out because this does not correspond to what she envisioned as her happy ending with Robin?  I remember season 1 when she sort of freaked out at Henry about the shoe he left lying in the stairs.

[Writing Wrongs]

So in the flashback, does Maleficent still have the golden egg David shoved in her in dragon form inside her in person form? How does that work?

[kingshearte]

Maybe it's just me, but I never once believed Maleficent's baby died. They had Maleficent drawing the parallel between her and Snow both trying to save their babies from the Curse. I just assumed the baby was lost to Maleficent the same way baby Emma was lost to the Charmings.

Agreed. As soon as this came up, I started pondering who it might be, because you just know it'll turn out to be someone we know. And then, of course, there's also the question of who the father is. Someone else we also know, I'm sure.

 

I keep screaming at the television that Regina and Henry kind of suck at investigating. Where are the actual investigative things? Why not ask some of the other characters about what they know about their own stories in the book? They have obviously never watched CSI.

Just as well. Do you really want to see that episode?

[KingOfHearts]

 

And then, of course, there's also the question of who the father is. Someone else we also know, I'm sure.

Prince Jonathan! ... anyone? No? Okay.

[YaddaYadda]

Prince Jonathan! ... anyone? No? Okay.

 

You should ask A&E who prince Jonathan is and see if they remember.  

[Camera One]

The father might be "The Dragon" from that Tamara episode.  Who turns out to be Mulan's father.  So Mulan's stepmother is Maleficent and her best friend is Aurora.  Awkwarrrrrrrrrrrrrrd.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

You guys are thinking too much about the father.  Ursula and her tentacles.  Guess we really should have taken that quip about her impregnating her with her tentacles more seriously.  

 

Maleficent was probably already pregnant which means her baby was probably born before Emma was.  

[KAOS Agent]

 

I thought it was sad that she voiced it that way.  No one is enough for Regina and her happiness.  What happens when she's reunite with Robin and living with him under the same roof for two weeks and he leaves his socks under the bed and leaves the toilet seat up and toothpaste in the sink?  Is she going to freak out and kick him out because this does not correspond to what she envisioned as her happy ending with Robin?

 

I was thinking more long term than this. What if Regina & Robin decide they want to have their own child together? What happens if Regina experiences fertility issues? Now she thinks she just can't be happy without a baby of her own which would completely disregard all the wonderful things she has with Robin, Henry and Roland. It's just such sad thinking.

 

One of the biggest problems I have with the book storyline and now the Emma darkness/light potential storyline is that even if they are going to end up saying it's all nonsense and we make our own paths and achieve our own happiness, they are going to spend an entire season with stories based on the idea of the opposite. One episode at the very end where they tell you it's crazy will not wipe out the 22 episodes ahead of it where everyone was convinced that it's true. It's just a bad message. 

[Mari]

I was thinking more long term than this. What if Regina & Robin decide they want to have their own child together? What happens if Regina experiences fertility issues? Now she thinks she just can't be happy without a baby of her own which would completely disregard all the wonderful things she has with Robin, Henry and Roland. It's just such sad thinking.

Yes.

 

Or when Henry hits thirteen-fifteen, and decides that he really doesn't like his stepfather and/or stepbrother?  Because thirteen to fifteen not exactly the time when kids are at their peak of kindness, gentleness, and understanding.  Particularly with parents and/or siblings and stepsibs.

 

How happy will her ending be when Henry's at full-bore obnoxious teen and causing problems?

[The Cake is a Pie]

That line of thinking has me wondering what Regina would be like as a mother in law.

[Camera One]

when Henry's at full-bore

 

I like Henry, but he's already there.  

[Shanna Marie]

Or what about when Henry wants to go to college and has to leave Storybrooke? I always wondered what Regina thought he was going to do when he grew up if the curse hadn't broken. He couldn't marry anyone in town because no one else was aging. I suppose he could have left town, since he was able to go get Emma and bring her back, but would Regina have let him?

 

Now there's that town barrier. They have the scroll (if they got it back), but what if that's still an issue when he's ready to go to college? Will having him living away from town destroy Regina's happiness and convince her that she doesn't get a happy ending?

[pcta]

I'm really sad. I've tried 3 times to watch this episode and haven't made it thru yet. I guess I am done. Like the core characters. Am sooooo bored with the revolving add on characters. Even Carlyle, who I adore, can make me finish the episode.

[Hook75]

... And possibly Emma's friend Lily as well.

 

She is probably Maleficent's child, IMO.

 

I'm still bored with this arc and I'm sad that Hook does not get to do much.

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm really sad. I've tried 3 times to watch this episode and haven't made it thru yet. I guess I am done. Like the core characters. Am sooooo bored with the revolving add on characters. Even Carlyle, who I adore, can make me finish the episode.

You've made it farther than I have. I still have to watch the episode. I'm not sure my Scarlet Queen hear can take it though.

[KingOfHearts]

Rewatched it again. I've mentioned this before, but Regina's character would be so much better if Mayor Mills was a separate cursed personality. Her offense to the Queens snarking about her past, her talk with Henry about wanting to forget things, and then her apology to Geppetto would all have made more sense that way. To have her as a strict single mom who can't believe she was really a villain in the past puts the pieces of the puzzles together a lot more nicely than to only present the dichotomy with lip service.

[Mitch]

I agree KingofHeats, but Adam and Eddy needed her to be an antogonist against Emma, but she had more then enough reason to hate Emma just by being Mayor Mills, what with Henry, her hot sheriff mooning over Emma, Emma being an alpha female also (how interesting it would be to see a cursed Mayor Mills just believe everyone would cowtow to her, and not getting why an uncursed Emma didn't).

 

Back to this episode...oh my God was it stupid..and not in a "Once," fun goofy way. No one in Storybrooke has a half a brain between them (or for the days that Emma, Regina and Gold would play each other...) and they all act as if someone cursed them with the "Dummy Curse."  Snow and Charming are as bright as a block of wood (Sorry Pinochio) I am used to that....(Memo to Snow and Charming, the only reason you are heroes is that a magical person helps you out or something falls into your lap) but EVERYONE else is stupid, from the Queens, to Regina to Emma to Hook to Belle (or okay, nothing new there.) There is nothing interesting to watch with dumb people bumping into each other. The usual save of a Post S1 episode is that there are usual bitchy one liners and camp jokes and knowing references. There were none this episode and the show falls flat without them.

 

Big Question: Where the hell does a train in Storybrooke come from ..(and where does it go) ?

 

Big Complaint: I had to sit through this crap, I would have rather watched the QOD and Regina's party in the crypt..what in the HELL did they talk about???

[Zuleikha]

I didn't mind this episode, and I don't mind the author plot. But I really hate the QoD arc because it's taking time that could be used to develop the Author plot in a coherent way. At this point, the Author plot has the following trail of clues: Sorcerer's house with the blank books, information from Blue that the Author is not the Sorcerer and the Author has left clues in the books, newfound page in August's motorcycle saddle bags. Of these three things, what's been followed up onscreen? Nothing! Instead, the most active scene we've gotten was Regina/Emma trying to get Pinocchio to remember things he obviously can't remember. This arc has such potential to establish some much needed worldbuilding and delve into the meat of what it means to be an Enchanted Forest resident, a hero, a villain, or have a Happy Ending--which I think are core questions asked back in the initial episodes. 

 

The pieces are in place, but instead of the scenes we SHOULD be getting (investigating the Sorcerer's house, asking Blue follow-up questions about what she knows with the Author/Sorcerer, using MAGIC to try and recover Pinocchio's August memories), we're getting QoD flashbacks and snarking and plotting. My feeling about QoD is who the frell cares? Nothing about them makes any sense. It's just a retread of Rumple-the-Mastermind-who-knows-everything. How very Season 1 of the show. Given that Rumple's betrayed them with a promise about happy endings before, why are Cruella and Ursula even working with him? Why are they even friends? Are they even friends since they apparently weren't keeping in contact when they were in NYC/Long Island? Plus, obviously the Snowing plot with them is going to either be a whole lot of smoke about nothing or a huge retcon that is already destroying what remains of Snowing's characters.

 

Also, why isn't anyone asking how Cruella/Ursula are in the Land Without Magic in the first place? Because I'm sure asking! If they came with the curse(s), they'd be in Storybrooke. But how did they come without the curses? And why would they come without the curses? (to be fair to the show, I think there's a chance this will be addressed in fairybacks by the end of the season, but that still doesn't justify the CHARACTERS not asking about it!)

 

Finally, I swear I read all the pages and didn't see this address, did anyone understand why David lied about not finding the stolen box in Cruella's car? He and Snow wanted to boot Cruella/Ursula over the timeline (which frankly, was a sane, smart desire as it was clear the two were not interested in reform/redemption). The stolen box provided a legitimate reason to do so. Why on earth did he pass on the opportunity? Going to scatter Maleficent's ashes was also a smart move given their limited information (that probably should have been done a long time ago given the ambiguity of how the curse affected her life), but it didn't seem like an either/or. Get rid of Cruella/Ursula and then also scatter the ashes. Then confess the truth to Emma and live out the virtues of Snow White and Charming.

 

The Gepetto/Regina scene, the Emma/Hook scenes, and Maleficent with the rattle were the only scenes that felt emotionally true to me from the episode. I liked the Snow/Regina scene at the end, but I view it as emotionally false since I don't buy that Snow/Charming would have done anything that bad. I choose to believe Will/Belle are having a fun fling to get over their mutual heartbreaks, so I liked that moment, too.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Did anyone understand why David lied about not finding the stolen box in Cruella's car?

 

Because plot reasons. Snowing are also not the sharpest tools in the shed. Instead of asking around for a couple of non-pregnant heroes, they abandon the Tree of Idiocy and stopping the curse to focus on "fixing" their evil zygote. Clearly, the idea that David could use the stolen box to kick the girls out of town didn't even come into his brain because he was so busy worrying about covering his own ass with regards to the big secret. One could question why they blew Emma off when she wanted to arrest them after she had video evidence they stole something. Why not have Emma distracted with Ursula & Cruella while they took care of the ashes? I guess the best I can come up with is that they were afraid the villains would spill all to Emma once they knew they were being thrown out and had nothing to lose. 

[Camera One]

I guess the best I can come up with is that they were afraid the villains would spill all to Emma once they knew they were being thrown out and had nothing to lose.

 

I think that's it. 

Edited March 18, 2015 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

Yeah, that's actually one plot contrivance that I didn't have a problem with, because it seemed pretty clear to me that David didn't want Emma asking why they had a Maleficent-themed baby rattle, and their possession of it was a warning to him that any attempts to do anything other than let them go on their way would result in them spilling to Emma.

 

I mean, still dumb, but not nearly as dumb as the rest of the show is currently, so.

[Zuleikha]

and their possession of it was a warning to him that any attempts to do anything other than let them go on their way would result in them spilling to Emma.

 

Maybe? But David was trying to get Regina and Emma to boot them out earlier in the episode, and the whole reason he and Emma were tailing them in the first place was to try and have a reason to expel them. And then there it was; he got a reason. I needed an actual onscreen explanation for his change of heart (that made sense!) because seeing Maleficent's baby rattle seems to me like more of a reason to evict them rather than a reason to fear an implied threat. 

 

Snowing are also not the sharpest tools in the shed. Instead of asking around for a couple of non-pregnant heroes, they abandon the Tree of Idiocy and stopping the curse to focus on "fixing" their evil zygote.

Yeah, that one got to me and my husband, too. As we were watching that scene, we started screaming at Maleficent to just go and find a different set of heroes. It's the Enchanted Forest! There's no shortage of them. (strangely, it didn't occur to us to yell that at Snow and Charming, perhaps because we were too busy yelling at them to just infiltrate Regina's castle since we know it's going to take her about 9 months to cast the Dark Curse)

[Camera One]

And then there it was; he got a reason. I needed an actual onscreen explanation for his change of heart (that made sense!) because seeing Maleficent's baby rattle seems to me like more of a reason to evict them rather than a reason to fear an implied threat.

 

Part of it is I think David got scared.  Clearly he is not used to deception and covering his tracks.  Why wouldn't the Queens of Darkness blurt out the secret?  They have nothing to lose from it.  David knows full well that he and Snow could do nothing to retaliate, despite that threat in the rain.

 

And if Ursula and Cruella is convicted of petty theft, what would happen exactly?  Couldn't Ursula just use her tentacles to throw Emma and David off a cliff pretty easily, while they run?  If David and Emma sicked Regina on them, they'd spill about the secret out of spite.

 

Even during this episode, I couldn't get over how idiotic it was for them to let the Queens in, and the lack of worry and pre-planning in case they did become villainous and used their magic.  Regina was completely occupied with something else.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

Maybe? But David was trying to get Regina and Emma to boot them out earlier in the episode, and the whole reason he and Emma were tailing them in the first place was to try and have a reason to expel them. And then there it was; he got a reason. I needed an actual onscreen explanation for his change of heart (that made sense!) because seeing Maleficent's baby rattle seems to me like more of a reason to evict them rather than a reason to fear an implied threat.

But the moment David said he was going to evict them, Ursula and Cruella would have spilled the secret to Emma. Which is apparently what Snowing are trying to avoid at all costs. And the baby rattle, because it's directly connected to the secret (it's no coincidence that of all the crap in Rumpel's shop, that's what they stole), was a very pointed reminder that at any time, the Queens can and will spill the secret if Snow or Charming piss them off. For David, keeping the secret and letting the Queens go trumps evicting the Queens (if he and Emma even could evict them) and having the secret out in the open.

 

Really, the problem is that the moment the Brain Trust (ie Regina and Emma) let Cruella and Ursula back into town, Snow and Charming lost any and all leverage they had, despite their posturing in the rain the previous episode. They can't say boo to the Queens now, because the moment they do something the Queens don't like, the Queens will just threaten to spill The Awful Truth (I couldn't resist) to Emma and Snowing will have to back down.* Right now the Queens having Snowing's metaphorical nuts in a vice. Snow and Charming have to dance to the Queens' tune.

(*=with the disclaimer that we all know the truth is going to be something ridiculously overblown, like Snow sneezed and a beaver jumped and a branch fell and hit Maleficent and made her miscarry. But because the show loves to hate on Snowing, and Snow particularly, no matter how stupid and piddly the secret is, it will be The Worst Thing Ever and Snow will be The Worst Person Ever.)

 

At this point, the smart thing for Snowing to do would be to just figure the secret will come out eventually, fess up to Emma, and work on getting the Queens out of town. But this show is determined to make literally all of its characters idiots, so that won't happen.

[KAOS Agent]

Really, the problem is that the moment the Brain Trust (ie Regina and Emma) let Cruella and Ursula back into town, Snow and Charming lost any and all leverage they had, despite their posturing in the rain the previous episode.

 

The Brain Trust wouldn't have let them into town if Snowing had actually mentioned that they may have screwed them over and that they aren't looking for redemption but revenge. If they were going to lie to cover their ass that was the time to do it, not after they were already in town.

 

At this point, the smart thing for Snowing to do would be to just figure the secret will come out eventually, fess up to Emma, and work on getting the Queens out of town. But this show is determined to make literally all of its characters idiots, so that won't happen.

 

And again, why not make up a lie about why the Queens are after them, respond to anything the Queens say as they are lying to make trouble and throw them out? It's not like they could make things worse with Emma by trying that route. It's super annoying when the plotting is so bad that they have to remove any smarts the characters may have to make the story work. 

Edited March 18, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[YaddaYadda]

At this point, the smart thing for Snowing to do would be to just figure the secret will come out eventually, fess up to Emma, and work on getting the Queens out of town. But this show is determined to make literally all of its characters idiots, so that won't happen.

 

See, that's the thing, isn't it?  It was never Cruella or Ursula's secret to spill in the first place, so I don't even think they were going to.  They might use it to blackmail Snowing, but it wouldn't have gone further than that.  When Maleficent was resurrected, she told them she didn't care about the secret and they can keep it for as long as they want.  What she really wants is to see them suffer as much as she has.  That's an implication that she's going after their child.  Yes, she might be a grown woman who can handle herself, but Maleficent going after her is without her even knowing about it leaves her completely vulnerable.

 

What then, Snowing?  Your daughter is hurt or worse.  Will they cry because they should have told her what happened?

 

It's the Hook situation.  There's a hat that vacuums magical people and your girlfriend is magical and I bet he thought Emma would be safe because she is Henry's mother, but as it turned out, she wasn't and that's when he chose to spill the truth in the voice mail, when he figured out that Rumple didn't care.

 

No one has learned anything?  I know, rhetorical question.

[HoodlumSheep]

Playing a bit of catch up here (I'm now only 2 episodes behind):

I liked it well enough. I fist pumped when Geppetto let Regina have it. And then I found myself yelling, "No!" After he got kinda sucked into the Regina/happy-ending/author nonsense. And speaking of Regina, yikes. If I was Geppetto I would have punched Regina in the face if she was speaking to my kid that way. Just makes me think of all the kids she sent to get eaten by the blind witch.

I did feel bad for Mal in that last scene of hers.

Snowing needs to just tell Emma! Granted I don't hate Snowing yet, because while it was a kinda a low blow to Mal, (refusing to team up with her), I can understand that Snowing don't want to resort to dark/evilish tactics to defeat Regina. Now, why they couldn't just agree to work together to find a non-villainous way to defeat her, I don't know. Maybe because Mal offed those innocent soldiers? And, Snow is the main one who slighted Mal, seeing how Charmz was asleep. Unless if he does something bad (?) revealed later on. Poor David, always having to share the blame.

I guess I'll have to wait and see how much worse Snowing gets before i don't like them.

[Camera One]

On rewatch, the scene between Regina and Henry in her office felt kinda creepy.  His dialogue would be more appropriate coming from an adult female friend of Regina's.  

[Rumsy4]

What scene was that?

[Camera One]

This was the donut eating scene.

 

HENRY: How about you, mom? How are you doing?

REGINA: I'm fine, Henry.
HENRY: You didn't seem fine when we ran into Ursula and Cruella.
REGINA: Well I suppose that's because they remind me of a time in my life I'd rather forget.  A time when I was a true villain.  It makes me doubt if my happy ending's even possible.
HENRY: You can't think like that.
REGINA: I know, but sometimes I wonder if I'll ever be as happy as I was when it was just you, me, Robin Hood, and Roland.  That feeling was, uh [Whispering] The closest I've ever been to happy.  I wanna get back to that.
HENRY: You will, mom.

[Shanna Marie]

Yeah, that scene is a little creepy. She's basically telling her son that he's not enough to make her happy, that she not only wishes she had a romantic partner (which is reasonable for an adult) but also that she wishes another child were in the mix.

 

And when was it ever the four of them? Did we ever see a scene with Henry together with Regina and Robin that wasn't a group scene in the diner, other than when Henry first got his memories back and Regina introduced him to Robin? Then Marian was back the next day.

 

It seems to me that letting Henry spend his whole life digging into that book and focusing on getting her a happy ending is a sign of her selfishness. Would a good mother really allow him to do that, or would she be encouraging him to pursue his own interests? This is a 12-year-old kid whose hobby is his mother's love life. If she's not careful, he'll still be living in his room at her house when he's 30, having a job that's basically "something online with computers" that he does from his room at home, and bringing her as his date to any events he has to go to outside the house. But she'd probably like that. Can you imagine the kind of mother-in-law she'd be?

[Rumsy4]

This was the donut eating scene.

 

REGINA: I know, but sometimes I wonder if I'll ever be as happy as I was when it was just you, me, Robin Hood, and Roland.  That feeling was, uh [Whispering] The closest I've ever been to happy.  I wanna get back to that.

HENRY: You will, mom.

 

Ah! Yes... I agree. Henry is playing the role of a supportive female friend. Add the breakup basket he made for Regina, and it gets even weirder. I'm not sure of A&E think this relationship is a healthy and beautiful dynamic, or they are intentionally writing it as borderline creepy. I suspect it is the former, as they had Regina True Love kiss Henry. 

 

If she's not careful, he'll still be living in his room at her house when he's 30, having a job that's basically "something online with computers" that he does from his room at home, and bringing her as his date to any events he has to go to outside the house. But she'd probably like that. 

 

Pretty much. Henry has zero friends his own age, apparently doesn't do home work, and and is way too involved in getting his parent a boyfriend. Why is Emma letting this happen? Henry had friends in New York.

[Camera One]

They probably thought it was a beautiful mother-son moment.

 

It doesn't help that the actor playing Henry seems to have just watched "You've Got Mail" or "Sleepless in Seattle" and was determined to channel the You Go Girl! Girlfriend.  I cannot visualize how a teenager could make that "You can't think like that" line sound natural.  

 

But then later on, Henry gave a full-out "you're a crazy witch" look in the blow-up at Pinocchio scene.  I'm going to imagine he secretly thinks she's psycho and needs to be treated with kid-gloves.

[kingshearte]

Henry has zero friends his own age, apparently doesn't do home work, and and is way too involved in getting his parent a boyfriend. Why is Emma letting this happen? Henry had friends in New York.

Because to do otherwise might hurt Regina's fee-fees.

[Mari]

I'm not sure of A&E think this relationship is a healthy and beautiful dynamic, or they are intentionally writing it as borderline creepy. I suspect it is the former, as they had Regina True Love kiss Henry. . . . and is way too involved in getting his parent a boyfriend. Why is Emma letting this happen?

See, my head canon (and probably not A&E's) is that since Regina seems to struggle to see Henry as an actual person--as she does with pretty much any person who isn't her--Henry acts as a mirror.  She's not really kissing Henry, she's kissing the avatar that represents herself as the perfect, loving mother.

 

As for why Emma's letting Henry be Regina's adult female friend? Because they're back in Storybrook, he's moved back in with Regina, since he can have an actual bedroom there instead of a corner of the hovel, and she probably has no clue that most of it is happening that way, since Henry wouldn't think of it as inappropriate to mention it. 

 

Plus, when they lived in New York, Henry was overly interested in Emma's love life.  Since a year isn't enough time to fully develop that behavior, it was built into their memories by Regina.  What little of it Emma notices would be consistent with Henry's behavior in all of her "raising Henry" life memories.

 

Hey--is this newish since the memory spell Regina put on them?  Maybe we can blame Regina's memory spell for all of it?

 

But then later on, Henry gave a full-out "you're a crazy witch" look in the blow-up at Pinocchio scene.  I'm going to imagine he secretly thinks she's psycho and needs to be treated with kid-gloves.

I like this.  If I squint hard and think that, maybe it'll be easier to find redeeming factors in their scenes?

[Rumsy4]

 

See, my head canon (and probably not A&E's) is that since Regina seems to struggle to see Henry as an actual person--as she does with pretty much any person who isn't her--Henry acts as a mirror.  She's not really kissing Henry, she's kissing the avatar that represents herself as the perfect, loving mother.

 

Is it scary that this makes sense? lol 

 

Plus, when they lived in New York, Henry was overly interested in Emma's love life.  Since a year isn't enough time to fully develop that behavior, it was built into their memories by Regina.  What little of it Emma notices would be consistent with Henry's behavior in all of her "raising Henry" life memories.

 

Yes, but at least he had friends and played video games and seemed to have a normal kid's life. That Emma should be completely okay with Henry mothering Regina makes her look insecure in her relationship with Henry. If she tries to stop him, Henry will most likely throw a tantrum, Regina will accuse her of being jealous of her relationship with Henry, and Snow will make some dumb remark that Emma is overreacting. Ugh...

[Zuleikha]

She's basically telling her son that he's not enough to make her happy, that she not only wishes she had a romantic partner (which is reasonable for an adult) but also that she wishes another child were in the mix.

 

I think it's reaching to interpret her including Roland as saying to Henry that Henry isn't enough and she wishes another child were in the mix. Henry is enough, and I don't think there's any question that if Robin didn't have a child, Regina would be just as interested in him. But Robin does, so when she's imagining the blended family, of course, she's going to include Roland.

[Shanna Marie]

The tree that will only give answers to heroes rejecting a woman because the embryo she's carrying -- which is little more than a few cells when it's so early in the pregnancy that she doesn't know she's pregnant -- has the potential to either be a villain or a hero (duh, like every unborn child, which has the potential to be anything) is one of the more offensive concepts this series has come up with. Way to reduce the mother to nothing more than an incubator rather than being judged on her own merits.

And I guess this was before

Spoiler

they came up with the idea that "Savior" was a thing and not just a role Emma played in the curse

since they were talking about Emma having potential because she was a True Love baby.

All the stuff discussed immediately above about Henry and Regina's creepy, inappropriate relationship still bugs. I don't think the writers watched their own show because there was never really a time when it was "just the four of them" with Regina, Robin, Henry and Roland. Regina was dating Robin for just a few days, a couple of which Henry didn't remember Regina as mother. The rest of the time before Marian showed up, Henry was still with the Charmings and focused on the birth of his new uncle. Roland seems to have been around Regina that one time when they stopped to get ice cream after Regina and Robin had their fireside picnic date in which he told her how much pain he went through after he lost Marian (and Regina doesn't ever seems to have connected that to her actions, but then, neither did Robin). This lovely time when she was happy seems to have existed only in Regina's head. There isn't even any time to squeeze it in offscreen because it happened during the time when every second of their lives was being accounted for. So are we supposed to think of Regina as being delusional for imagining this golden age that never was, or did the writers forget that they never actually made that happen?

Looking at one of my own comments above:

On 3/13/2015 at 11:35 PM, Shanna Marie said:

Will having him living away from town destroy Regina's happiness and convince her that she doesn't get a happy ending?

Spoiler

And the answer was yes. Her life had no meaning without him, so she followed her adult son around.

I'm still also bothered by the fact that everyone seems to think that Regina locking herself in her office and staring at that book is a great idea. Yeah, there are evil people in town that she let into town, but she has more important things to deal with, like her own happiness.

I think my favorite moment of the episode was the brief encounter between Hook and Ursula where it looks like Colin managed to blush on cue. His face flushed bright red when Hook and Ursula spoke.

[tennisgurl]

I am going to need some more information about this alleged "Tree of Wisdom" and how much wisdom is actually has. I mean, for one thing, if a woman is pregnant, than she cant use the thing, even if the fetus literally just got boned into existence? Because she is just an incubator I guess. And...what the fuck is it even talking about? "Ohhhhhh, your baby could be good...or evil!?!" So, basically, the way anyone can be? Yeah the kid would be magic, but so what? Anyone who has ever existed has the potential to be a serial killer or a dog rescuing scientist who is researching cancer treatment for free, so what makes this kid so different. I dont get how this works, who cares if the kid has potential for darkness? Again, so does everyone! 

Spoiler

I wonder how much of this stupid plot is actually Snow and Charming, and even the Queens, and how much is the Author just dicking with them? Was all this stupid him, or was it just the actual egg napping? Because no one ever acts like it was the Author, and this all lines up with this show acting like evil is some kind of genetic condition, like having green eyes or something, is this all supposed to be for real? UGGGG.

I totally forgot this is the episode with the Gepetto scene where he told Regina off in it! Oh yeah, I want that scene on repeat! He roasted her, it was amazing. Yeah, of course Regina gets even a mild setback for her insanely stupid Happy Ending Plan (because why just work at being a better person when you can find a cheat code?!) and she goes full Crazy Eyes and starts yelling at and threatens to torture a freaking child. I especially loved when Regina tried to throw his own mistake back at him, and we both basically yelled "It was your fault that he/I had to do that in the first place!" at the same time! No wonder they hardly have Gepetto on the show anymore, he is WAY too real for this ridiculousness. And, it actually leads to a decent scene when Regina actually apologizes, and shockingly, people are more likely to help you when your nice, and dont scream at their kid!

Regina and Henry have such a weird relationship, it really seems like A&E think that a close mother/son relationship is a woman and her sassy gay best friend from an early 00s movie who has no life outside of helping her with her romantic woes. Its so bizarre. And we have already established that Henry gives zero fucks about the countless victims of Regina, including a couple of villages that got their hearts ripped out. Why would he care now? 

I do like the bits with Emma and Hook throughout, especially when they had decently honest chat about his past and how hard it is for him to talk about. It was nice in between all of the stupidity going on. 

So now Will gets to get with Belle, after sharing literally zero lines with each other, and no scenes since he got drunk in the library. He sure does have a point on this show. Oh, I am so glad he came back from Wonderland for this! Anastasia who? 

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

So now Will gets to get with Belle, after sharing literally zero lines with each other, and no scenes since he got drunk in the library. He sure does have a point on this show. Oh, I am so glad he came back from Wonderland for this! Anastasia who? 

Ah yes, the Love That All of a Sudden Because They're Both Unattached (temporarily).

If it helps, I've decided that my retcon headcanon is that this all happens before the present-day events in the Wonderland spinoff. I know they strongly implied that it all happened immediately after season one, with the Rabbit showing up in the aftermath of the Wraith, but then that was all they knew at that time. There are other similar circumstances later.

Spoiler

Like the swirling Darkness at the end of season 4 or Zelena's tornado at the beginning of season 5.

So, say Will ended up back with the Merry Men after the past events (Ana ditching him, being enslaved by the Queen of Hearts, meeting Alice, etc.) and was in the Coradome for Curse 1 but got caught up in Curse 2 with Robin and the others, so now he's in Storybrooke. That's why he's still thieving and generally acting like he would have back home, since he didn't get the identity/memory download. He's still bummed about Ana ditching him for wealth and power (he may not have his heart, but like Regina, he feels with his liver), and thus the drinking, passing out over pictures from storybooks, etc. He's only been in Storybrooke for about a week when Emma first sees him, and though the curse gave him an apartment, he eventually discovered Robin and the gang and headed out there. He makes a stab at a relationship with Belle, but his heart isn't in it (literally) and it goes nowhere because they're both on the rebound from people they would rather be with. The Shattered Sight spell works on him and not Hook because Rumple put Hook's heart in a protective case or spell, since he needed Hook functioning during the spell, but Will's heart, in the walls of his apartment, gets bits of the shards in it.

Spoiler

Then at the end of season 4 when Belle goes back to Rumple and Will abruptly disappears,

it's because that's when the Rabbit came to get him. Then the events of Wonderland ensue. It's not perfect because obviously they meant something else, but it works better than taking it the way it was originally implied, with the events of Wonderland happening between the beginning of season 2 and season 4, so that Will is dating Belle after being reconciled with and married to Ana. The timeline's still a bit wonky, but it already was and never did work without assuming that Literary Victorian England World and Wonderland were both also frozen by the curse.

[Camera One]

I like that headcanon.  I think the other reason why we interpreted the Wonderland spinoff events as preceding Season 4 is that's what A&E said at the time.  

I felt like there was something else which suggested Wonderland had already happened, but I don't remember what.  

Spoiler

So then the Wonderland spinoff events must have happened during Season 5, for Jafar to be trapped in the lamp in Season 6?

[Shanna Marie]

34 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I think the other reason why we interpreted the Wonderland spinoff events as preceding Season 4 is that's what A&E said at the time.  

Well, yeah, I guess that does shade the interpretation. It just doesn't seem to work. Obviously, when they wrote the spinoff, they had no idea what would be happening in season 4 or that Will would be joining the main show. But I don't think there's anything obvious on screen that determines when Wonderland happens, and deciding that the destruction we saw in Storybrooke in the Wonderland pilot wasn't the Wraith, after all, is no more of a retcon than a lot of other things they came up with, like Zelena's existence.

The problem is that they didn't write season 4 Will like he came after the Wonderland events. It's hard to imagine the Will from the finale of Wonderland dating anyone else instead of fighting his way back to Ana. He and Ana were certified True Love.

I can see how suddenly getting the rights to Frozen might have changed their 4A plans for Will, but the Queens of Darkness aren't on that level, so it's odd that they didn't come up with anything better for Will to do than have a tepid mostly offscreen romance with Belle just to make Rumple jealous.

Spoiler

Season 5 makes the most sense for Wonderland to take place. There's the Darkness and tornado, which are similar to the Wraith effect. That's also when Will vanished. Then Cyrus and Alice could have been in Storybrooke either while the gang was in Camelot or while they were all in the Underworld, which explains why we didn't run into any of the regular main characters and nobody noticed Cyrus and Alice. Jafar ends up in the bottle, so that he's there for season six.

[andromeda331]

I love everything Geppetto says to Regina. I can't believe he was allowed to say all that considering no one is allowed to say anything mean to Regina. 

[KAOS Agent]

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

this all lines up with this show acting like evil is some kind of genetic condition, like having green eyes or something, is this all supposed to be for real? UGGGG.

Except that this show continually says that evil isn't born, it's made. Unless you're Embryonic!Emma apparently. The whole thing is ridiculous and awful.

[Shanna Marie]

11 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Except that this show continually says that evil isn't born, it's made. Unless you're Embryonic!Emma apparently.

I guess there's darkness potential, and then whether it goes evil depends on what happens to you to make you evil, so if, like Emma, you have potential for great darkness, but then you have an easy life of growing up in foster care, being abused, being homeless, being betrayed by your first love and ending up in jail, pregnant as a teenager, then you don't turn evil. But if you're like Regina, then even if you have less darkness potential, if you run into terrible things like growing up as a princess or being a queen, if something bad happens to someone you care about, then that makes you turn evil.

23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I totally forgot this is the episode with the Gepetto scene where he told Regina off in it! Oh yeah, I want that scene on repeat! He roasted her, it was amazing. Yeah, of course Regina gets even a mild setback for her insanely stupid Happy Ending Plan (because why just work at being a better person when you can find a cheat code?!) and she goes full Crazy Eyes and starts yelling at and threatens to torture a freaking child.

This follows on to what I said in the previous episode about how I found it interesting that they're showing Regina holed up in her office, focusing exclusively on her own little happy ending project rather than focusing on doing anything good for other people (unless asked). In this episode, she actually says she has more important things to do than deal with Ursula and Cruella, and she's referring to her happy ending project for herself. To hell with what's going on in town. Why should she be responsible for that? She's only the mayor! (Funny how when Snow was mayor, things like the electrical infrastructure and dealing with Ingrid were considered part of her job but for Regina, that's all Emma's responsibility.) And then we have Regina dragging an innocent child into it, screaming at this kid so she can get her happy ending. But she's totally misrepresented by the book and deserves to get what she wants.

Something else I've been noticing during the rewatch that's really obvious when you're watching episodes back-to-back: These writers really have pet phrases that they use over and over, and they put them in the mouth of various characters rather than having them be something like a catchphrase. One of them that's really been hitting me is "really did a number on." I think it's David who says it in this episode, but Hook has also said it, and it just seems awfully colloquial and modern for someone from the fairytale world without the Storybrooke download. I'm pretty sure Emma has also said it. I don't think it's such a common saying that everyone would be saying it all the time, but it comes up often enough that it's starting to jump out at me every time someone says it. It's not quite as common as "happy ending" is in the current arc, but it is the kind of thing a good writer would learn to edit out or use sparingly.

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Something else I've been noticing during the rewatch that's really obvious when you're watching episodes back-to-back: These writers really have pet phrases that they use over and over, and they put them in the mouth of various characters rather than having them be something like a catchphrase. 

I noticed that too.

Spoiler

In 6B, two separate characters said to a villain "... but not today".  I think Emma says it to Gideon in one episode and then Jasmine says it to Jafar in another episode.  It's like they read each other's scripts and then a phrase gets stuck in their mind so they re-use it.

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, evil is not born, it’s made...endless it’s unborn Emma I guess. But the rules for Emma and for Regina are always different.

Edited March 3, 2019 by tennisgurl