Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[Morrigan2575]

Well if they are gonna add more regular cast members, I think they should try to be a little more diverse with casting. More females & less white males would be nice. The comic book world and life in general is filled with so many options.

Its not that I'm against a big ensemble, if they all have a part & interesting character to play. RA would just add to the Firestorm story, he doesn't bring anything new to the story or add a substantial skill to the team. So in my mind that does not expand the story it just bloats the cast. Which is why I can see him guesting or being specially featured on the Spin-off, but don't need to see him as a regular member of the cast.

I wish they would release more details about what this group of Flarrow cast-offs are gonna be doing because that would give us some direction as to what to speculate on. We don't even have a working title yet.

Without Ronnie Raymond/Robbie Amell you don't have Firestorm. His inclusion only makes sense since they already have Martin Stein/Victor Garbo in the cast.

[DigitalCount]

Well if they're going to stick to the Arrow/Flash pattern, they could add four more regulars. But yes, I'd like to see them use that space to add more diversity.

But I'm not a fan of Pied Piper - I just keep feeling like I'm looking at Harry Potter for some reason.

That reason is probably "because he looks scarily like Harry Potter."

[Shanna]

I didn't enjoy Robbie on flash so I can't get excited about him on either show. Ithink they'll keep him on flash but I don't know how that firestorm thing will work. Guess they could split them permanently.

I think brandon Routh could carry a show, maybe, if they made him evil or ambiguous. I just don think he plays a superman/normal guy type well. He needs to be a sort of oddball character. I think he is good looking so they try to give him the leading man roles and the crazy eyes makes it not work.

I don't think I will be watching this show. These show runners are already on this ice with me for arrow (and I find the flash watchable but fluff). So I can't say I am all that interested in this hodgepodge of characters that they threw together because they couldn't make ray work.

[Morrigan2575]

I didn't enjoy Robbie on flash so I can't get excited about him on either show. Ithink they'll keep him on flash but I don't know how that firestorm thing will work. Guess they could split them permanently.

The dual persona of Ronnie/Stein is one of the basic premises of Firestorm both on the Flash and in the comics.

[BkWurm1]

The dual persona of Ronnie/Stein is one of the basic premises of Firestorm both on the Flash and in the comics.

But it's not always Ronnie and Stein and they are not always combined in one entitiy so they could leave Ronnie out in the universe and come up with a different partner for Stein or could just have Ronnie and Stein figure out a way to be apart for a long period of time and only bring him in for special occasions.  It's all comic craziness, they can find a work around. 

[Morrigan2575]

But it's not always Ronnie and Stein and they are not always combined in one entitiy so they could leave Ronnie out in the universe and come up with a different partner for Stein or could just have Ronnie and Stein figure out a way to be apart for a long period of time and only bring him in for special occasions. It's all comic craziness, they can find a work around.

Pre Flashpoint it was Ronnie/Stein or Jason/Stein with the younger character being the physical representation while Stein was the person trapped inside (basically what they had on Flash until the split). Post Flashpoint it was Ronnie and Jason who were each Firestorm and joined together to form a super version of Firestorm. The duality of personalities joining together to form a superior entity is at the very core of Firestorm in both comics and the show.

There's no point in establishing Ronnie Raymond on The Flash to toss him away for Stein, especially on The CW. Ronnie has the ties to the Flarrow Universe not Stein. Ronnie was the one established over several episodes, not Stein.

The way Firestorm was established on the Flash, Stein/Ronnie are mentally linked, they are currently in separate bodies due to Wells' tacheon device but can only become Firestorm by merging, at which point Stein becomes the brains to Ronnie's braun.

RA is a horrible actor but he's got a relationship with Berlanti by staring in The Tomorrow People, being SA's cousin and being cast on Flash as Firestorm/Ronnie Raymond. Not to mention, they're doing a spin-off off of existing characters/actors, something like Ronnie being replaced with Jason or just disappearing/being recast would only happen if RA didn't sign on to the spin-off (which could happen) but I highly doubt these guys wasted 5 episodes on Ronnie/Firestorm including what was clearly a backdoor pilot to just to with Stein.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[tv echo]

Someone else is skeptical about the Atom spin-off -- btw, article refers to Sara as the "original Black Canary" ;) ...

 

Does The Atom Deserve His Own CW Spin-Off?
By Paul on Mar 5, 2015
http://www.tvovermind.com/arrow/atom-deserve-cw-spin-off-252388

[Sakura12]

The ATOM's not getting his own show, that's entire point of the other characters. He wasn't enough sell on his own. They are calling it a Super Hero Team Up show. It's not about one character, like Arrow, Flash and Supergirl it's about a team of them. 

 

I am interested in the other 3 characters that are going to be joining the show. 

Edited March 5, 2015 by Sakura12

[Starfish35]

It seems like MG has confirmed Sara is returning. From his Tumblr, in response to an anxious Laurel fan:

Sara’s return won’t affect Laurel’s arc.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/112893433449/can-we-see-katie-cassidy-do-the-salmon-ladder

[Morrigan2575]

Always figured it was Sara, only questions is Lazarus Pit or AU? I suppose they could have Flash do a reset but that seems extreme.

[Scribbles]

There is another way...Laurel wakes up and realizes only fools rush in and decides to leave the vigilante biz to her sister.  They can even say she was the Black Canary because like canaries of old she ventured in the mine and escaping with her life, feathers soiled black, she warned all future comers of the dangers of entering the dark unknown.  She is a hero...saving those who might think this vigilante gig is for any ole Dick or Jane.  It would be EPIC.

[Sakura12]

He just admitted that Sara was coming back. Why the secrecy in the original article then? They named everyone's character except for Caity's. 

[wonderwall]

I don't even know how Sara can come back and have it not affect Laurel's arc. This just seems like a jumbled mess.

[Sakura12]

Sara's coming back but going to choose a different name because reasons. Even though the name only means something to her. It will mean nothing to Laurel if Sara's alive.

[BkWurm1]

I don't even know how Sara can come back and have it not affect Laurel's arc. This just seems like a jumbled mess.

Agreed but I'm not going to point it out.  I want Sara.  I'll pretend at least until she shows up that it doesn't make Laurel even more of a punch line. 

 

Starting now, I mean, ;)

[wonderwall]

Sara's coming back but going to choose a different name because reasons. Even though the name only means something to her. It will mean nothing to Laurel if Sara's alive.

If it does mean nothing to Laurel it will sort of undermine her arc though don't you think? Her arc is based on how much she loved Sara (though we never really even saw that love. Apparently she loved Sara more in death than when she was alive. smh), so it should affect Laurel. IDK

[DrSpaceman10]

Sara was really dead, so I don't see how they can bring her back and have it be believable. We still don't know how they're going to use the Lazarus Pit on Arrow (or whether or not it has the ability to resurrect the dead), so maybe an alternate universe? How would they even introduce an AU version of a character, would they do it on Arrow or The Flash or even on the spin-off itself? 

 

Nothing about this spin-off makes very much sense right now.

[strikera0]

I don't even know how Sara can come back and have it not affect Laurel's arc. This just seems like a jumbled mess.

 

The only way this would work for me is if CL plays a Sara clone that has none of old!Sara's memories or an AU version of the character. The AU version would have probably lived a completely different life and therefore no reason to call herself the Canary. 

[Sakura12]

If Sara doesn't get to be Black Canary than the AU version is the only one that will work for me. They don't have to get too deep into their explanation of an alternate world. Just enough to show us she's a different version of Sara that never went by The Canary and led a different life than our Sara. 

Edited March 7, 2015 by Sakura12

[KirkB]

Which should upset me since Arrow is supposed to be 'grounded' but I don't think that applies anymore. They're in a world with men who run at the speed of sound and other wacky, comic book stuff so an alternate universe version of Sara Lance is not that big of a deal and would more or less undo one of the biggest mistakes a lot of people here agree the EPs made.

[BkWurm1]

If Sara doesn't get to be Black Canary than the AU version is the only one that will work for me. They don't have to get too deep into their explanation of an alternate world. Just enough to show us she's a different version of Sara that never went by The Canary and led a different life than our Sara. 

Sara will always be Arrow's first and best Black Canary IMO but it's ok for the character to want to distance herself from her past.  It doesn't make Laurel more deserving but I honestly could understand why Sara wouldn't want to be Canary any longer. 

[tennisgurl]

As long as we have SOME Sara, in SOME capacity, I`ll take it. It will still probably be a mess, but I`ll take it. 

[catrox14]

I'm not gonna lie. I'm so disgusted with them killing Sara and then bringing her back all to boost Laurel...I'm not going to watch the spinoff. I barely watch the Flash and now that SPN is on after Arrow, I have no compelling reason to watch the Flash.

Arrow and SPN FTW

[statsgirl]

Bringing this here from the Spoiler thread:

As for Sara, I was listening to a podcast today and the Pit was mentioned to work even after one year of being dead. Apparently the longer you've been dead the crazier you might come out. So there might still be a Sara resurrection possible. 

That would be interesting if she were to come back as a crazy villain. No competition for Laurel in the BC clothes, and an antagonist for the heroes who they don't want to hurt because she was a good person once.  Gradually she could get better and join the good guys side.

[catrox14]

Ugh, I would really hate for Sara to be the crazy sister since Laurel has already proven she's not quite right. Taking response to spoiler thread.

[Delphi]

The insanity doesn't actually last for a super long time in most cases, in fact in the original Birds of Prey arc, Black Canary was actually submerged in the pit and was only insane for two issues. So I could actually see Sara as insane for maybe the last two episodes only to regain her clarity towards the end of the season.

[statsgirl]

But it would work to

a.  bring Sara back even after she was truly dead

b.  not affect Laurel's rise to BC

c.  provide the show with a story arc for the first half-season

[Sakura12]

I could see them going with the insanity arc for Sara if she's resurrected. Then afterwards she'll want to leave (to her spin off) because she won't want to be around the people she keeps hurting (mostly by dying and coming back all the time). I suppose Ray will offer to go with her because Starling City has enough masked heroes. 

Edited March 7, 2015 by Sakura12

[Lokiberry]

I could see them going with the insanity arc for Sara if she's resurrected. Then afterwards she'll want to leave (to her spin off) because she won't want to be around the people she keeps hurting (mostly by dying and coming back all the time). I suppose Ray will offer to go with her because Starling City has enough masked heroes. 

Ray will be her new boyfriend, because women only exit on these shows to be some guy's screw toy.

[Sakura12]

Danielle Panabaker posted this on her instagram. Maybe possible cities of the spin off to take place? Although the Supergirl City is called National City or something, it would be better if they choose another name. 

 

Edited March 7, 2015 by Sakura12

[Ariah]

Ray will be her new boyfriend, because women only exit on these shows to be some guy's screw toy.

We still don't know how Anna looked like - perhaps she was blonde and sultry, and looked like a cross between Felicity and Sara?

 

There you go, Ray. (And the producers - the idea is free of charge, as it's been redone so many times it's like an old chewed up gum)

[Sakura12]

I can't see Sara going for Ray, not after dating Nyssa. He's too bland. But then again these writers don't care too much about logic and will probably support the LGBT community even more by having Sara come back and start dating a man. Or they'll think of Sara as Oliver and Ray as Felicity and try to force a coupling, not realizing that's not how it works. 

[Ariah]

Logically I can't see Sara with anyone but Nyssa.

 

But these writers are not know for their logic...

 

Still, is it absolutely necessary to have a romance on a show? No. I'd rather have a good action show with likable characters, no clandestined love story. Unless it's a recurring Nyssa, coming in to tame Sara's demons.

[Morrigan2575]

But it would work to

a. bring Sara back even after she was truly dead

b. not affect Laurel's rise to BC

c. provide the show with a story arc for the first half-season

I don't think that's possible, even mid-season shows begin filming in late summer. Edited March 7, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[statsgirl]

Mid of their season whenever their season is.  If it's a mid-season replacement show, like Agent Carter, the Crazy Villain Sara could last the whole 8 episodes, and end with her joining the Team.  There's still time, Tara Butters said they were still working on the last Agent Carter shows as the first ones aired.

 

If it is Sara that Caity Lotz is playing, I'd like to see Nyssa recurring on the show too, keeping their relationship. Ray is going to need to romance the various female guest starts since Ronnie is already tied to Caitlyn.

[Coop33]

I just saw Caity's Q&A at Chicago Fan Fest and she spoke a little about the spinoff. She said she was super excited to be coming back for a new show. With regards to how Sara comes back, she said "I would love to tell you, but I think they might kill me." She also alluded to the number of time Sara has supposedly died, so you never know.

[BkWurm1]

From over in spoilers discussion thread

 

What would be the point of that if she can't interact with the present-day heroes? There'd be nothing tying her story to the present, and her only purpose would be so we could see her time with the LoA, for...what, exactly?

 

There is nothing that would get me to drop the spin off faster than if they reveal that Sara is only alive in the flashbacks.  A parallel was made to Lost but even though I really enjoyed that show and had planned to catch up on the final couple seasons, the ending made me write the rest of the show off.  I have no interest in watching anyone struggle that I know died in their prime. 

 

A show like Peggy Carter is different because we know she lived a full and long life and I want to know the details and what happened to her, but knowing details of the adversity and struggles Sara faced with the knowledge it was all for nothing is depressing and would feel like the show runners were trying to pull a fast one on me, dangling Sara and snatching her away.  I would be pissed. 

[Morrigan2575]

I just saw Caity's Q&A at Chicago Fan Fest and she spoke a little about the spinoff. She said she was super excited to be coming back for a new show. With regards to how Sara comes back, she said "I would love to tell you, but I think they might kill me." She also alluded to the number of time Sara has supposedly died, so you never know.

Oh thanks. I saw those comments on another site but they were pulled from twitter and I had no idea what people were talking about. I didn't realize they were quotes from CL at a convention.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[BkWurm1]

Since MG said "Sara’s return won’t affect Laurel’s arc," we know that Caity will be back as Sara.

 

Since Sara never interacted with any of the other announced main cast within the current cannon of either show, it seems highly unlikely that her part in the series will be told in flashbacks (a single episode flashback, a la Agent Carter's team uncovering the mcguffin in the past that the Agents of SHIELD are dealing with in their present, I could understand, but you don't make a main cast contract with someone you only plan on using in one episode).

 

This says to me that Sara will be brought back to life.  It puts pay to AK's statements that "everything you need to know, we've already shown you," because the Lazarus Pit has been introduced.  While I could see Oliver LP'ing Sara's corpse (given the odd legal realm this show breathes in, wouldn't that free Thea of culpability?  No dead body, no murder!) to save his sister... possibly even playing along with Ra's after he gets the LP demo next episode with this express purpose.

 

Alternatively, I could see Nyssa, discovering her father has disowned her, saying "fuck it!" and grabbing her girl.  If anyone could sneak into Nanda Parbat, it would be little Miss RAISED THERE.  She could resurrect Sara.

 

In both cases, Sara having been dead for almost a year, she'd be crazy and out of it.  Possibly she'd do something horrible that would help snap her back to sanity, then give her reason to atone further and keep her distance from her family "for their own sake."  This leads to her joining the new team in Coast City, possibly not as Canary.  My comic knowledge is not deep enough to suggest other possible heroes for her to inhabit. 

(From Spoiler thread)

 

I didn't realize AK had said we have all we need to know to explain whatever is happening with Sara.  I do lean toward the pits but I guess an argument could still be made for some weird cloning or brainwashing experiment given all the secret labs and projects we've heard of.  They could even pull something with Sara splitting into two after the explosion in Central City.  We don't know where she was then, do we?

 

I think it might rule out the alternative universe since while Flash has set up alternative timelines, it hasn't hinted at alternate worlds. 

[Proteus]

Sara only coming back in flashbacks makes zero sense. She will obviously be alive and in present day with the other team members since this a team up show.

[AyChihuahua]

I think it's going to be time travel-related.  Flash has confirmed time travel, with the news that adult Barry was there when his mother died.  It definitely won't be just flashbacks about Sara on a show with a bunch of people in current time who never even met Sara.  

[TrueMyth]

(From Spoiler thread)

 

I didn't realize AK had said we have all we need to know to explain whatever is happening with Sara. 

Sorry, if I was unclear, but AK's quote wasn't connected directly to Sara but instead about the end goals of the season, though it was said before Ra's made his offer.  I do think it makes a nice narrative arc for season three to start with her death and end with her rebirth.  It would also be a great reason to reboot Sara/Caity as a new hero, therefore not messing with Laurel's BC identity, now that Laurel has committed to the mask for her own reasons, and still keep Caity as a vibrant hero.  Hey, at least the death motivating her would be her own!

[KirkB]

Is there any particular theory holding more weight than others? So far we seem to have:

 

1) The real Sara was never actually dead. Some sort lookalike died on that rooftop.

2) Lazarus pit.

3) Time travel shenanigans.

4) Alternate universe Sara.

5) Secretly has some sort of resurrection/healing ability.

6) Clone.

 

And what do you suppose it says to the EP's, not to mention Routh and the others, when all the talk/interest seems to be about Caity/Sara?

Edited March 7, 2015 by KirkB

[wonderwall]

Honestly, I'm hoping for the time travel thing... Weirdly, that seems like the most realistic to me :p

[BkWurm1]

Honestly, I'm hoping for the time travel thing... Weirdly, that seems like the most realistic to me :p

In what way are you (question open to anyone really) thinking time travel?  If Sara is dead, she can't come back from the future and I will throw a fuss if she comes from the past - hangs on the show for it's duration and then goes back in time to just in time to die. 

 

How would time travel work?

[KirkB]

Oh, I can field that one. The easiest way, from a comic book perspective, is Barry is on his way back from the past after trying to save his mother and by blind chance happens to dart across that rooftop and sweep Sara up in his temporal wake, bringing her with him to the present.

[BkWurm1]

Oh, I can field that one. The easiest way, from a comic book perspective, is Barry is on his way back from the past after trying to save his mother and by blind chance happens to dart across that rooftop and sweep Sara up in his temporal wake, bringing her with him to the present.

But doesn't that change the past then?  Instead of dying, she vanishes?

[tarotx]

I still think time travel is messy. Laurel found Sara's body. They buried her. Sara taken from the moment before death has no affect on her especially to name her some thing other than the BC. If Sara's coming back they have to have her affected. Imo. My guesses is by the crazy LP or some kind of Reserrection issue.

Edited March 7, 2015 by tarotx

[KirkB]

That's the main reason I don't think time travel is the answer. It's too messy. If you bring Sara from the past she doesn't die and Laurel has no reason to put the mask on, which doesn't work since they're saying Sara's return won't affect Laurel being the Canary. So I'm personally going with the idea either it wasn't really Sara who died or else, most likely, it's the Lazarus Pit. 

[dtissagirl]

I think the Lazarus Pit works better if Sara is brought back in an episode of Arrow, either this season, or early in S4. If Sara comes back in the pilot of the new show, then I think the LP is the worst method. They'd have to explain this entire season of Arrow to the potential new viewers in that pilot.